00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.09.12 00:28:03 --- quit: imaginator ("sleep") 00:41:59 qFox: look good now? 00:48:01 --- quit: Herkamire ("bed at last") 01:09:51 --- join: scope (~junk@njd.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth 01:26:09 yes . 01:36:01 Morning :) 01:40:17 hi 02:07:02 --- quit: ChanServ (Shutting Down) 02:07:02 --- join: mur_ (~mur@uiah.fi) joined #forth 02:09:52 --- quit: mur (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 02:12:01 --- quit: crc (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 02:12:44 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth 02:12:44 --- mode: irc.freenode.net set +o ChanServ 02:17:15 --- quit: ChanServ (Shutting Down) 02:28:19 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth 02:28:19 --- mode: irc.freenode.net set +o ChanServ 02:44:11 --- quit: warpzero ("Tried to warn you about Chino and Daddy Gee, but I can't seem to get to you through the U.S. Mail.") 02:47:32 --- quit: ChanServ (Shutting Down) 02:48:56 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth 02:48:56 --- mode: irc.freenode.net set +o ChanServ 03:05:24 --- join: mur (~mur@kyberias.uiah.fi) joined #forth 03:07:52 --- quit: mur_ (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 04:23:39 --- quit: qFox ("this quit is sponsored by somebody!") 05:15:57 --- join: mur_ (~mur@mgw2.uiah.fi) joined #forth 05:26:09 --- quit: mur (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 05:28:37 --- join: crc (crc@33-pool1.ras11.nynyc-t.alerondial.net) joined #forth 05:42:10 --- join: qFox (C00K13S@82-169-140-229-mx.xdsl.tiscali.nl) joined #forth 05:42:53 Hi qFox 05:43:05 hi 05:43:12 * qFox now has a 19" 05:43:19 no 21" 05:43:30 not sure whether this one's great though 05:43:40 Hehe. 05:43:51 he aint sharp :( 05:44:01 Poor, poor qFox 05:44:05 * Robert pets his 15" 05:50:50 --- quit: crc (Client Quit) 06:02:27 --- join: crc (crc@33-pool1.ras11.nynyc-t.alerondial.net) joined #forth 06:13:46 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 06:14:13 --- quit: crc (Client Quit) 06:19:23 --- join: Topaz (jonny@spc1-horn1-6-0-cust217.cosh.broadband.ntl.com) joined #forth 06:19:43 --- quit: mur_ (Remote closed the connection) 06:21:32 --- join: mur (~mur@mgw2.uiah.fi) joined #forth 06:22:10 --- quit: Topaz (Remote closed the connection) 07:14:23 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 07:25:32 --- join: mur_ (~mur@smtp.uiah.fi) joined #forth 07:35:52 --- quit: mur (Read error: 238 (Connection timed out)) 08:04:58 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 08:42:39 --- join: Topaz (jonny@spc1-horn1-6-0-cust217.cosh.broadband.ntl.com) joined #forth 08:47:37 --- quit: mur_ (Remote closed the connection) 08:49:07 --- join: mur (~mur@smtp.uiah.fi) joined #forth 09:20:43 --- quit: Tomasu ("SIGWTF") 09:25:27 --- join: Tomasu (~moose@S010600045a4c73cc.ed.shawcable.net) joined #forth 09:39:19 --- join: crc (crc@33-pool1.ras11.nynyc-t.alerondial.net) joined #forth 09:47:51 --- join: mur_ (~mur@smtp.uiah.fi) joined #forth 09:52:20 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@h000094d30ba2.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 09:52:20 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Herkamire 09:57:47 --- quit: mur (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 10:08:30 can anybody recommend me to a Forth with sockets? 10:09:06 IsForth, once I440r (yes, you!) finishes the DNS code. ;) 10:10:31 i know about that one, another one, anybody? 10:11:11 arke: forth for what os/arch? 10:11:36 tathi: unix(like), x86 10:11:42 tathi: linuix, to be exact 10:12:31 RetroForth can use sockets, but you'll have to code them yourself :-) 10:12:45 (Or convience cmbrannon to share his networking code) 10:12:47 :-) 10:15:58 actually, I've always wanted to try RetroForth :) 10:16:30 * crc takes a look at the IsForth socket code 10:16:45 * crc needs more code that uses the new syscall interface :-) 10:18:44 robert thats YOUR job :P 10:20:11 * Robert is away: if I440r is looking for me I went to Neptune 10:20:24 yea yea 10:20:42 :) 10:21:45 I440r: YOUR JOB 10:21:50 :) 10:22:04 no. i assigned it to lazyrobert 10:22:06 I440r: does isforth have a word |? 10:22:07 heh 10:22:21 I440r: oh, somebody with a less vertical style? :P 10:22:22 | <-- or |? <-- ? 10:22:26 | 10:22:37 yes - its "or" 10:22:41 & is "and" 10:22:44 etc etc 10:22:46 that may change 10:22:52 * crc uses | for comments 10:22:57 oh 10:23:05 PLEASE CHANGE IT 10:23:26 i prolly will if ennuff ppl complain :P 10:24:28 I440r: why use | & etc? 10:24:51 because i dont like spelling out word names taht have well known symbols for them 10:24:56 like @ ! etc 10:24:56 I mean they're the C operators, and you hate C, right? :) 10:25:24 and lshift rshift (puke) 10:26:25 i wouold rather write shr and shl than lshift rshift << >> 10:26:35 * crc likes << >> 10:26:40 << and >> are perfect 10:26:48 * tathi agrees 10:27:07 well, I guess I'm a minority here :) 10:27:11 lol 10:27:15 * arke likes self-commenting code though 10:27:22 no such thing 10:27:27 not EVEN. 10:27:43 their is partially self commenting code but not fully self commenting 10:27:47 * I440r hides from kc5 10:27:48 Prove that :-) 10:27:53 Hehe. 10:27:56 read my sources 10:28:02 I'm with I440r in this question ;) 10:28:11 I440r: sorry, look at kc5tja's VIBE code. it is 100% readable without comments :) 10:28:19 i thunked you were on neptune :P 10:28:56 Robert: your problem is that you don't comment enough on your assembly :P 10:28:59 im not arguing it - me and kc5 are diametrically opposed on this issue :) 10:29:00 I440r: Damn it. You didn't see that 10:29:24 arke: I don't have to flollow my own advice, do I? 10:29:31 Robert: :) 10:29:41 Robert: hey, your Forth code is great :) 10:29:47 Uh, yeah..sure 10:29:48 Robert: just your assembly is a bit .. well ... weird 10:29:55 The parts that somewhat work 10:29:57 MAYBE 10:30:29 I once found a comment in Robert's source that said "I stole this from somebody once. I wonder what it does?" 10:30:37 OK, enough geek talk. I'll go read some instead. 10:30:39 :) 10:30:44 hehe 10:30:58 arke: Helpful, isn't it? 10:31:16 I put it there to avoid stupud questions, but it's not like it helped 10:32:17 lol 10:38:16 :p 10:38:35 btw 10:38:40 german keyboards, they suck. 10:38:56 on teh same note, i'll bet swedish, and dutch keyboards suck too. 10:39:29 german keyboards? 10:39:38 they suck becauyse they're qwerty 10:39:42 or rather, qwertz 10:39:43 bought a keyboard of ebay (no longer in production). kind of asumed that i wouldnt care about the board having german text keys on them 10:39:51 well thats no problem 10:40:01 I wish I could use dvorak 10:40:04 windows keyboard thing (ehr) fixes that easy 10:40:05 *wert* keyboards suck :P 10:40:06 Or AT LEAST type on qwerty 10:40:18 Robert: is swedish qwertZ? 10:40:22 the z on this keyboard types as y 10:40:24 No, qwerty 10:40:32 thing is though, the \ is at the complete other side of the board 10:40:37 next to, what should be the z 10:40:45 Hah 10:40:49 yep, thats how they work 10:40:52 Here \ is "+" + Alt gr 10:40:58 Very very very annoying. 10:41:01 yes 10:41:03 well 10:41:05 tehre's more 10:41:06 Since you break your hand trying to type that 10:41:09 the enter key is much smaller 10:41:19 | is shift+\ 10:41:28 and the |\ key is where normally part of the enter key is 10:41:46 emacs is probaly even harder for swedes and germans etc. to use than the english :) 10:41:49 so i'm gonna buy me a new keyboard next week from ebay. this time from a dutch guy. :p 10:41:52 which is why i prefer vi 10:41:56 qFox: :P 10:42:02 i hate the way the fscking SHIFT key is larger than the enter key on my kbd 10:42:10 i love this model of keyboard, but goddamn those german bastards! 10:42:11 thats fscked up 10:42:18 i have that. 10:42:35 i prefer the type where the \ is right of the right-shift 10:42:49 not above (OR COMPLETELY LEFT ON THE KEYBOARD) 10:43:03 although i can live with above if i must 10:43:15 ok im outa here ill bbl 10:44:38 kc5tja: you should be awake by now. :) 10:44:46 heh 10:48:28 whats this condition called, in english..., where you're afraid of germs and stuff like that? 10:48:37 uum 10:48:45 afraid to get sick, dont like it when ppl touch you because you might get something, etc 10:48:51 being a mom? 10:48:54 lol 10:48:55 i don't know 10:48:56 hehe 10:49:03 it has a name. 10:49:10 ....fobic 10:49:17 (obviously :p 10:50:45 :) 10:51:48 well, there's "mysophobia" 10:51:54 doesnt ring a bell 10:52:12 well, lets see if translation sites will translate teh dutch word... 10:52:19 but that's more fear of dirt than germs 10:52:47 hm. guess english has a new word :p 10:52:50 google is also showing up verminophobia 10:53:44 when you asked, the first thing I thought was "hypochondriac", but that's someone with imaginary diseases. 10:54:04 not someone who's afraid of disease really. 10:54:57 dutch word is smetvrees 10:55:06 appearantly, its also the english term :p 10:56:38 i'm looking for a movie 10:56:53 or actually just an actor, but he's playing in this movie 10:57:02 maybe somebody knows it, its from last year i think 10:57:25 two main characters, one has this condition 10:57:34 multiple conditions actually 10:57:48 all of which i dont remember the english term 10:57:54 afraid to go out 10:58:05 afraid of germs, and getting a disease etc 10:58:11 afraid to talk to people 10:58:16 but they are scammers 10:58:18 Geekness? 10:58:38 ignoring that comment, and the odd guy has a doughter 10:58:43 daughter 10:58:45 ;_; 10:58:59 >_< 10:59:08 damnit 10:59:12 I'm thinking of that Jack Nicholson movie, uhm, where he's playing "Always look on the bright side of life" 10:59:16 But it's older 10:59:27 no thats not it. 10:59:32 I know 10:59:42 But.. it's pretty funny 10:59:46 perhaps... 11:01:44 matchstick men 11:01:56 damnit. that wasnt the actor i was looking for ;p 11:02:54 --- quit: crc ("Time for bed... Goodnight!") 11:02:58 Poor qFox 11:03:17 i hate this 11:03:23 >_< 11:04:39 alright. lets try again. 11:04:41 :) 11:05:26 this movie is mostly based inside the appartment of one guy. he's having relational problems and has to get this therapist. 11:05:46 his therapist wants to move in with him for the duration of the therapy 11:06:16 at some point the guy has the therapist strapped onto the kitchen table or something. or was it the other way around 11:06:23 i suck at this :p 11:07:55 Heh. 11:08:08 http://www.jesusishitler.com/ <--- some people have too much time :) 11:09:46 uh, lol 11:10:14 A nice parody on all those crackpot theory pages though 11:10:30 mein kampf is sequal to bible :p 11:10:35 >:) 11:11:19 riiiight, so anyways 11:11:57 so, i was appearantly talking about PS your cat is dead, but once again, not the guy i'm looking for 11:11:58 damnit. 11:12:16 suck movie anyways 11:14:20 * qFox gives up. 11:20:11 --- join: T0paz (jonny@spc1-horn1-6-0-cust217.cosh.broadband.ntl.com) joined #forth 11:20:11 --- quit: Topaz (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 11:23:10 --- quit: mur_ (Remote closed the connection) 11:24:37 --- quit: tathi ("yardwork") 11:24:56 --- join: mur (~mur@kyberias.uiah.fi) joined #forth 11:25:24 --- join: Topaz (jonny@spc1-horn1-6-0-cust217.cosh.broadband.ntl.com) joined #forth 11:25:27 --- quit: T0paz (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 11:40:51 I just decorated my desk :) 11:41:24 :) 11:41:32 I use a clipboard as a mousepad, and the mouse cord has an annoying tendancy to get caught in the clip handle 11:41:49 Herkamire: hehe 11:42:06 hi Herkamire , arke 11:42:09 at some point I taped a used envelope (using the materials at hand... wouldn't want to get up or anything) ever it 11:43:03 later I removed it so I could use my clipboard. I asked my gf if she had a better idea, and she suggested fabric 11:43:39 once I had a big red swatch of fabric in hand, I ended up laying it across my desk, under the monitor etc. 11:43:42 spiffy 11:45:57 herk> site worked fine when you left 12:01:28 qFox: thanks :) 12:03:40 good morning. Or something. 12:05:07 kc5tja: check your emails :) 12:05:12 kc5tja: (im heading out soon) 12:05:19 Good evening, kc5tja 12:05:34 arke: I can't at the moment -- I'm at work. 12:05:37 I will in a few though. 12:05:43 #define BITCOUNT(x) (((BX_(x)+(BX_(x)>>4)) & 0x0F0F0F0F) % 255) 12:05:43 #define BX_(x) ((x) - (((x)>>1)&0x77777777) \ 12:05:43 - (((x)>>2)&0x33333333) \ 12:05:43 - (((x)>>3)&0x11111111)) 12:05:43 -- really weird C code to count the number of bits in a word 12:05:53 Wow. 12:06:01 I got this in fortune today. It's elegant, but man, I can't make heads or tails of it. 12:06:06 * kc5tja will have to remember this for later study. 12:06:24 I'm stunned. :) 12:07:29 Yeah, me too. I mean, I've seen tricky math tricks before, but this one just blows me away. 12:09:02 http://herkamire.com/downloads/desk.jpg 12:09:18 camera wouldn't focus terribly well, so that's about as much detail as there is 12:09:48 kc5tja, that's amazing 12:10:24 kc5tja: tahts, like, o.O 12:10:35 slava: :) Long live fortune, preserver of all things obtuse on the Internet 12:11:07 kc5tja, i think its deliberately obfuscated 12:11:20 slava: I'm not so sure. 12:11:23 (X & 0x0F0F0F0F) % 255 <-- the % 255 is redundant, no? 12:11:36 No. 12:11:42 or rather, can't you just do X & 0xF? 12:11:54 oh wait 12:11:56 Herkamire: :) 12:11:57 its not % 256 is it :) 12:11:57 Because if X has higher order bits set, then its value will be larger than 256. 12:12:01 However, 0x0F would work. 12:13:11 but then it wouldn't return anything > 16? 12:13:21 or 15 rather? 12:15:09 damn that code is terribly confusing 12:16:44 it's %255 though. not %356 12:16:54 my brain isn't even starting to wrap around this 12:17:02 it's %255 though. not %256 12:18:32 that's cool 12:19:08 slava: I'm not sure the above code will work for anything other than 16-bit words. It's hard to tell. 12:19:56 hrm. 12:20:02 0x1 = 0b1 12:20:06 0x3 = 0b11 12:20:12 0x7 = 0b111 12:20:17 seeing a pattern? 12:20:48 I think it's best to start with smaller numbers of bits. Given a 4-bit integer, how do you compute the number of bits in the word, given only that integer? No look-up tables allowed. 12:21:51 maybe try to truncate the above to a char, then plug in a random one by hand and see what it does 12:22:15 What? 12:23:58 * arke is heading out, bye 12:24:23 i think x86 provides an opcode to count bits 12:24:47 What is needed is to transpose the word from a horizontal array of bits into a series of words (conceptually) containing either 0 or 1, and produce a sum over that vector. 12:24:52 slava: Nope. 12:25:10 At least, not as of the Pentium II series of CPUs. It does provide opcodes for finding the first and last bits in a word though. 12:25:21 Maybe P3 and P4 have such an opcode, I don't know. 12:25:32 oh i guess i was wrong then :) 12:26:06 hmm, i'm getting two of those 200 MIPS ARM atmel uCs as samples (via a friend in a fiberchannel-raid mfr) :D 12:28:34 Topaz: Cool. :) 12:28:39 They run at 200MHz? 12:28:49 Let me know how they work out for you. 12:29:02 * kc5tja is a bit hesitant to design anything around a bus that runs at anything above 16MHz. 12:35:15 180mhz, though PLL-variable 12:35:27 i think the 200 MIPS figure is innaccurate actually, heh 12:35:41 i get the impression they were designed for 200 mhz, but the PLL isn't up to it 12:35:41 Topaz, what is arm assembly like? 12:35:43 * kc5tja nods 12:35:48 arm assembly is quite fun 12:35:56 conditionals on every instruction, which is interesting 12:36:01 wow 12:36:11 slava: Like a 16-register RISC, although it's cool because each instruction is predicated. So EVERY CPU instruction is effectively conditional. :) 12:36:19 re 12:36:22 re onetom 12:36:45 so i can do stuff like add two numbers, and jump on carry, in one instruction? 12:36:46 and due to the 32-bit opcode limitation, to allow you to load 32 bit numbers into registers, various opcodes will allow extra shifts and things 12:36:49 which can be handy 12:37:16 Topaz: That's common on most RISCs though. 12:37:34 i guess, heh, i've never used anything bigger than 8-bit other than an ARM though ;) 12:38:11 slava: No. You can add two numbers, and then you'd test for carry, which sets a predicate bit (or is carry one of the predicate bits?), then the jump instruction would conditionally run on whether the carry was true or false. 12:40:02 slava: Every instruction has four bits reserved for predicate selection. I'm sure one of these predicates is "always true", thus effectively making the instruction "unconditional." 12:40:09 ok 12:40:26 That leaves 28 bits left over for the rest of the instruction. 12:40:56 Up to 12 bits are used for the 3 register operands, so that leaves only 16 bits for the opcode and/or other flags. 12:43:12 the onboard-compactflash-interface could be handy methinks 12:43:21 i assume CF is the cheapest way of buying flash, heh 12:49:05 Hehe 12:49:15 --- join: saon (Ecoder@c-24-129-95-254.se.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 12:49:15 * kc5tja is primarily interested in the CF with the IDE interface -- makes things nice and simple. 12:50:54 hmm, "The True IDE mode is not supported..." 12:50:56 doh ;) 12:51:15 though i'm sure i could spare a few of my 122 PIO lines if i had to 12:51:33 i wish i could keep the top of stack in a register or something 12:51:49 and the stack pointers in a register too 12:52:19 hmm, that's a point, anybody know of any ARM FORTHs? 12:52:45 whats arm? 12:54:50 Topaz, factor runs on linux/arm 12:56:44 ooh 12:56:58 that'll be a task, heh, persuading linux to run on this chip... 12:57:02 apparently it will, though 13:01:43 --- quit: saon ("Leaving") 13:04:27 ok, I get the bitcount code :) 13:04:34 very clever 13:04:58 Topaz: Maybe you can get L4 running on the Arm. Then maybe you can get L4/Linux running on it. :) 13:05:12 haha, well, L4 is probably considerably more sensible 13:05:27 given the rather weird memory arrangement that i'm going to have, i'm going to have to run code from the right place to get speed, heh 13:06:48 Herkamire: As far as I can tell, the only way to get a count of the bits is to treat the integer as an array of 1-bit wide integers, then as an array of 2-bits, then 4-bits, etc. 13:06:50 question... either of you worked with PIC or AVR ? 13:06:56 i've used AVRs 13:06:56 Frek: Talk to Topaz. :) 13:07:00 :P 13:07:12 I've used both, but not for any serious projects. 13:07:14 kc5tja: this does it as an array of 4-bit ints the whole way through 13:07:15 Topaz: AVR is just 8 bit right ? 13:07:24 yeah 13:07:41 ehr lol 13:08:08 appearantly, ra2's online servers have been .... well fucked 13:08:36 guessing somebody is exploiting the client when they join the public chat rooms (where you must go to join other ppl's games) 13:08:56 Topaz: ok, just curious, I'm pondering starting a little business based on either PIC or AVR, I'm trying to figure which of the chips will be the most flexible, AVR seems cheaper, but PIC comes in alot of flavors 13:09:03 whenever me (and a friend of mine) join one of these public rooms, the client crashes a few seconds later 13:09:06 this never happened before 13:09:12 i've programmed both, and prefer AVR for a number of reasons 13:09:13 Frek: What are you going to do? 13:09:40 a) they're far faster, b) they're easier to program, programmer-wise (slightly), c) they have tons of registers, d) they don't use bank switching ;) 13:09:43 Robert: custom embedded solutions; like an cheap alternative to a PLC controller etc 13:10:13 Are there any ultra-low-power AVRs? That's one of the sexy things about some PICs. 13:10:27 But if you don't need it, well... :) 13:10:35 well, they score pretty highly on the power consumption scale, anyway 13:10:44 Topaz: ah, yeah they seems nice; besides you can obviously program AVR with C, PIC seems to be assembly most of the time. 13:10:46 you can always put them to sleep :P 13:10:56 well, yeah, but i tend to program AVRs in assembly 13:11:05 (more fun ;) 13:11:08 Hehe. 13:11:09 yeah it's probably the best 13:11:14 and considerably faster, in most cases 13:11:23 how much ram / rom does a typical AVR have btw ? 13:11:33 well, cheapest don't have any RAM and have 1k of flash 13:11:49 but the flash can be used as RAM I suppose ? 13:11:53 average ones tend to have 512 bytes - 1k of SRAM, and 8k-16k-32k of flash 13:11:54 Herkamire: You're going to have to describe it in greater detail than that. I just don't quite see how it works just yet. 13:11:55 no 13:12:03 you can wire up external ram easily 13:12:05 in each 4-bit field, it does: dup >r r@ 1 >> - r@ 2 >> - r@ 3 >> - 13:12:09 rdrop 13:12:10 Topaz: ah 13:12:15 Some EEPROM too. 13:12:26 Topaz: so the cheap ones are not "real" one chip computers then ? 13:12:26 the 'big daddy' (the ATMega128) has a ridiculous 128k of flash 13:12:30 this gives the bit-count for those four bits 13:12:32 and something like 16k of RAM 13:12:42 well, i've never needed external RAM in any of my projects ;) 13:12:56 though many of my projects haven't needed any RAM at all (fitting it all within the 32 registers) 13:12:57 Topaz: you just use the registers ? 13:13:05 well, there's enough normal RAM 13:13:07 Herkamire: Too deep. 13:13:14 512 bytes is a lot, when you're writing stuff in assembly 13:13:18 Herkamire: It's the whole 1 >> - 2 >> - thing that gets me. 13:13:23 --- quit: qFox ("this quit is sponsored by somebody!") 13:13:29 Herkamire: I just need to figure it out for myself, I guess. 13:13:42 Topaz: does the AVR have a fixed instruction length similar to PIC ? 13:13:58 16 bits, right? 13:14:09 I believe PIC is 12 bits or so 13:14:11 abcd 13:14:11 -abc 13:14:11 - ab 13:14:11 - a 13:14:11 ____ 13:14:13 0xyz 13:14:16 Frek: 14 usually. 13:14:19 right 13:14:30 But the AVR instructions use variable number of clock cycles. 13:14:43 From 1 to 3 (or maybe some exotic ones use 4) 13:14:50 yeah that's not important to me :) 13:14:54 Usually 1 or 2. 13:14:56 atleast not at this stage 13:15:03 Still faster than the PIC. 13:15:05 if the "a" bit is one, it will have a value of 8. subtract it in each other place (value 4, 2 and 1) and you get one. 13:15:30 bit b is worth 4 in the original number. subtract it in the next places (the 2s place and the 1s place) and it'll be 1 13:15:57 AVR instructions are 16-bit 13:16:36 the c bit is worth two (or zero) so if we shift it down and subtract it, it'll be 1 (or zero) 13:17:17 Topaz: if I put it this way; how much external circuits does a really tiny AVR board require ? like power source, crystal and a capacitor ? 13:17:43 two capacitors 13:17:46 but yes, no more 13:17:53 alright 13:17:56 my current project uses an ATMega8535 13:18:05 (and a crystal, and two capacitors) 13:18:13 what levels does the input/output produce ? 13:18:16 +5v ? 13:18:21 (also uses four CMOS chips for other things (since the AVR doesn't have enough pins), but that is irrelevant ;) 13:18:22 yeah 13:18:23 produce/requre even 13:18:25 require even 13:18:25 normal CMOS 13:18:27 okay 13:18:32 though you have to power them between 4-6V 13:18:37 (less if you get the L version) 13:18:42 so you can basically attach optoswitches to them ? 13:18:52 they'll source a surprising current 13:18:55 30mA per pin i think 13:19:01 (no more than 200mA per port though) 13:19:03 Frek: Just curious, are you going to use Forth with your project? 13:19:11 Robert: probably not 13:19:16 OK. :) 13:19:18 i need to get my AVR forth usable 13:19:26 could be rather quick, heh 13:19:48 you can use the %255 thing to sum 8-bit fields 13:19:48 Robert: this project is still just on the planing board, but it's an option I'm considering 13:20:07 --- join: mur_ (~mur@kyberias.uiah.fi) joined #forth 13:21:02 going from 4-bit to 8-bit is much easier than 1->2 or 2->4 because the result of the add fits in 4 bits still, so you don't need to & out the unwanted fields out of the arguments 13:21:48 ie you can do _8bit = (_4bit + (_4bit >> 4)) & 0x0f0f0f0f 13:22:58 instead of _4bit = (_2bit & 0x33333333) + ((_2bit >> 2) & 0x33333333) 13:23:15 mmmm. guess it's only one less & 13:28:22 Herkamire: That's rather interesting -- I had not thought to do it that way. 13:28:51 However, what happens to underflow? 13:28:58 Topaz: what AVR programmer do you use ? 13:29:09 E.g., abcd0000 - 0abcd000 - 00abcd00 - 000abcd ? 13:29:28 Only in this case, the '0' bits are valid data bits in other 4-bit fields. 13:29:28 Frek: the 'avrdude' schematic, and the 'uisp' software 13:29:39 (5 wires and a DB25 plug ;) 13:29:47 works faultlessly, every time 13:29:48 Topaz: ah ok, you haven't tried ATSTK 500 I suppose ? 13:29:51