00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.09.10
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02:40:14 <LuckyPhil> hello
02:51:22 <LuckyPhil> 20+ people.. and noone home... :)
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02:59:11 <LuckyPhil> make that 21+
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03:36:06 <tgunr> i'm awake :)
03:36:54 <crc> good
03:37:13 <tgunr> :)
03:37:36 <tgunr> tramp sucks :(
03:37:50 <crc> tramp?
03:38:19 <tgunr> having trouble connecting to my company via tramp using emacs
03:38:39 * crc has never heard of tramp
03:40:24 <tgunr> a way to connect to a remote computer using emacs, you can access files like they were local
03:40:29 <crc> ahh
03:42:48 <tgunr> normally works fine but they swithed my server over to a different farm and now it gets almost thru the init phase and fails sigh...
03:42:51 <tgunr> http://savannah.gnu.org/projects/tramp/
03:43:04 <tgunr> emacs is greate for Forth work
03:44:23 <crc> I use emacs, but I'm  still learning it
03:45:28 * crc takes a quick glance at the "GNU Emacs Manual, Fifteenth Edition" sitting on his desk
03:46:02 <Serg_penguin> emacs is way 2 cumbersome ;(
03:47:08 <tgunr> it takes some getting used to, but I like it now, old vi head here who switched after 20 years :)
03:47:11 <crc> Serg_penguin: it's nice for some things
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03:47:31 <crc> I never liked vi
03:48:20 <tgunr> it is a lot like forth, the more you get under the hood the more you realize how powerful it can be
03:48:48 <crc> I never got comfortable enough with it to get under the hood
03:50:27 <tgunr> i just took a weekend and went thru the tutorial and learned the basics then started tweaking my .emacs file, now to the point where i hardley have to leave emacs 
03:51:14 <crc> I'm still learning to use its more advanced features
03:51:16 <tgunr> documentation is all built in, cvs support, forth mode, built-in shell
03:52:09 <tgunr> try out the forth-mode, you'll like it, select some text in the edit and sent it to the interpreter with a coule of keystrokes
03:52:34 <crc> How does it pass them to the interpreter?
03:52:43 * crc wonders if he could make it work with RetroForth
03:53:34 <tgunr> i patched mine (forth-mode) to send over a serial port to my target
03:53:48 <crc> cool
03:54:02 <tgunr> you most likely can change  it to send to your forth
03:54:24 <tgunr> now working on a way to interact to the target over firewire
03:54:33 <crc> I'd have to pass the text via redirection
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03:54:53 <crc> What is your target?
03:55:10 <tgunr> Mac openfirmware
03:55:22 <crc> ahh
03:55:32 * crc likes the idea of a Forth-based ROM
03:56:02 <tgunr> yes, so do i, gives us a nice advantage over BIOS
03:57:44 <crc> Eventually I'll build a computer with Forth as the ROM
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04:00:53 <Serg_penguin> Speccy clone w/ Forth instead of BASIC was produced in RU ;))
04:01:13 <Serg_penguin> "Hobbi" 
04:01:25 <Serg_penguin> err, "Hobbit"
04:02:03 <crc> I'm thinking of an ARM based system running RetroForth. With PS/2 keyboard and VGA
04:02:17 <crc> And a serial port or two
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04:05:19 <tgunr> back
04:05:20 * tgunr is back (gone for 00:01.36)
04:07:48 <tgunr> learning how to use irc-mode in emacs :)
04:08:54 <crc> :-)
04:09:32 <tgunr> you can also web browse inside emacs
04:10:26 <crc> I know that
04:10:49 <tgunr> what is RetroForth anyway?
04:11:00 <crc> My Forth system :-)
04:11:42 <tgunr> on what hardware/os?
04:11:46 <crc> Subroutine threaded, 32-bit x86 Forth for Windows, Linux, FreeBSD, ForthOS
04:12:02 <crc> A 16-bit x86 version for DOS is *almost* done
04:12:22 <tgunr> why not just use GForth?
04:12:24 <crc> I'll starting ARM (and maybe PowerPC) version next year
04:12:38 <crc> gforth is far more complex in design than RetroForth
04:12:47 <crc> And it's a lot bigger
04:13:05 <tgunr> really? i thought the kernel was pretty small, at least mine is
04:13:13 <crc> How big?
04:15:31 <crc> RetroForth is about 5k
04:17:12 <crc> About 3k for the minimal 32-bit kernel
04:17:26 <crc> ~2k for a 16-bit kernel
04:18:16 <tgunr> yes, that is tight, but for what purpose on an OS?
04:18:39 <crc> tgunr: It has *just* what I need in it, nothing more
04:19:29 <tgunr> what do you use it for?
04:19:53 <crc> Shell/CGI scripting, games, simple applications mostly
04:20:11 <tgunr> ok
04:20:20 <tgunr> literally :)
04:20:42 <crc> :-)
04:21:53 <crc> Some of the other users are doing more complex things with it
04:23:05 <tgunr> ansi?
04:23:59 <crc> I don't follow the ANSI standard
04:24:03 <crc> (Or any other standard)
04:24:48 <tgunr> ah, a rebel
04:25:27 <crc> Like I said, it has *just what I need*
04:26:10 <crc> There are plenty of "standard" Forths
04:27:00 <tgunr> as long as it pays the bills :)
04:27:21 <crc> It's making me some money :-)
04:28:04 <tgunr> thats good, its hard enough to find Forth employment these days
04:28:43 <crc> It's not making enough money to live off of
04:29:06 <crc> But it's enough to keep me developing it
04:30:04 <crc> about $97 USD so far ($20 donation, the rest is from the ads on the site)
04:30:40 <tgunr> what is the site, i will take a look
04:30:51 <crc> http://www.retroforth.org
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06:30:33 <I440r> modified my radix counting sort to sort an allocated buffer of a million itmes
06:30:36 <I440r> took 8 seconds
06:30:40 <I440r> is that good ?
06:35:19 <arke> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
06:35:22 <arke> what sort of computer?
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07:01:58 <I440r> oh yea
07:02:08 <I440r> its a p4 with HT running at 2.8 lol
07:02:13 <I440r> ill run it on a slower machine later
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08:03:42 <arke|school> y0
08:04:26 <Robert> 3y
08:05:37 <arke|school> OH!!
08:05:46 <arke|school> I HAVE COME UP WITH AN EXACT REPRESENTATION OF PI!
08:06:18 <Frek> yeah me too 
08:06:34 <Frek> it's actually more of a token than a number series 
08:06:34 <arke|school> it is:
08:06:37 <arke|school> 10 in base pi
08:06:43 <Frek> it looks like a lower case "n" almost
08:06:51 <arke|school> an exact representation of pi!
08:06:55 <arke|school> i am a genius!
08:07:18 <Robert> Yeah, really.
08:07:29 <Frek> mines more accurate 
08:07:45 <Frek> as it's "all your base are belong to us" 
08:07:47 <Robert> Speaking of pi, in my sister's math book they don't give a better approximation than "3".
08:07:55 <Robert> AND SHE IS 13
08:08:00 <Frek> Robert: that's weird 
08:08:06 <arke|school> hehe.
08:08:35 <Robert> That's more then weird, it's crazy.
08:08:48 <Robert> What will they do next, tell them that the world is "almost flat"?
08:08:50 <Frek> Robert: she's not going in school in sweden though ?
08:08:56 <Robert> Yes, in Sweden.
08:09:01 <Frek> Robert: odd 
08:09:04 <Robert> Yep.
08:09:22 <Robert> I guess you're older than 13, right?
08:09:30 <Frek> yeah soon 
08:09:36 <Robert> Things seem to have gotten worse even in the 5 years since I was 13.
08:09:50 <Frek> obviously 
08:09:56 * TheBlueWizard molds arke|school into a shape of a perfect cube, just because....
08:10:18 <Robert> TheBlueWizard: With the side length of pi, right?
08:11:15 <TheBlueWizard> Robert: if you like :)
08:11:59 * Robert dances around shouting.
08:14:46 <Frek> ok question of the day; is pi rational ? 
08:15:26 <Robert> About as rational as George Bush.
08:15:31 <TheBlueWizard> lol
08:16:04 <TheBlueWizard> Frek: pi is a transcendental number, and thus is not a rational number
08:16:26 <Frek> pi = C/D (C= circumference , D = diameter) :) 
08:17:16 <Robert> Oh, right, I was going to look up the definition of transcendental numbers.
08:18:09 <Robert> Not a solution to a polynom equation, it seems.-
08:18:22 <Robert> Anyway, I'm going outside. See you in a while :)
08:18:30 <Robert> Frek: Heh.
08:18:44 <Robert> What an idiot-proof proof! :)
08:18:58 <Frek> Robert: yes isn't it a rational proof ? :)
08:19:04 <Topaz> ooh, i've got proof.
08:19:05 <Robert> One Fields medal heading your way
08:19:08 <Robert> Frek: ;)
08:19:09 <Topaz> pi = a/b, where a=pi and b=1
08:19:10 * Topaz bows
08:19:22 <TheBlueWizard> definition of a transcendental number: it is not a root of any polynomial equation with rational coefficients (note the word rational...if it accepts reals as coefficients, then pi can be a root, as a trivial equation x - pi = 0 shows)
08:19:37 <Robert> TheBlueWizard: Er, yeah. Sorry. :)
08:19:50 <arke|school> ^_^
08:20:01 <TheBlueWizard> math can be very picky, y'know :) (and I do have a degree in math)
08:20:35 <TheBlueWizard> the proof for the transcendence of pi is a bit long and rather hard
08:20:37 <Frek> I have 6 degrees of freedom right here so here by I state pi=C/D to be the most rational solution so far :)
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08:21:53 <TheBlueWizard> pi is *defined* to be the ratio C/D.  It does not imply that pi is rational.  A rational number has both numerator and denominator (!= 0) be integers
08:22:43 <Frek> TheBlueWizard: indeed; in the common world
08:23:57 <TheBlueWizard> "in the common world"? what are you saying???
08:24:25 <Frek> n/m, I'm kidding
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08:42:57 <arke|school> t3h w0ssn4m3
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08:57:55 <arke|school> oh HELL YES!!!
08:58:04 <arke|school> i can set up a CGI proixy on one of my sourceforge sites!!!
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09:00:36 <arke|school> wb wossname
09:00:40 <wossname> ty
09:00:51 <arke|school> wossname: I just realized that i can set up a cgi proxy for school through one of my sourceforge sites! :)
09:01:16 <wossname> :)
09:01:17 <wossname> sweet
09:01:22 <wossname> time to abuse open source
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09:01:32 * Frek is away: -
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09:44:04 * Frek is away: I'm busy
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11:19:47 <slava> arke, you talked to AlonzoTG in #osdev? :)
11:21:42 <qFox> oh him!
11:21:44 <qFox> :p
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11:48:52 <slava> hi warp0b00 
11:48:55 <slava> how's your language?
11:50:17 <warp0b00> okay
11:50:26 <warp0b00> man i just upgraded to xorg 6.8
11:50:29 <warp0b00> this is sweet
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12:04:26 <warp0b00> slava: i haven't been working on it since yesterday
12:04:41 <warp0b00> im still trying to fix the instantiate/cast syntax
12:04:49 <slava> casts?
12:04:49 <slava> eew
12:04:56 <slava> :)
12:05:11 <warp0b00> they're not as bad as you might think
12:05:25 <warp0b00> they're just for immediate constants
12:05:28 <slava> is the language statically typed?
12:05:42 <warp0b00> define statically typed
12:06:11 <slava> all types are known at compile time -- no runtime type tags
12:06:16 <slava> eg, C++ or ML.
12:06:18 <warp0b00> no its not
12:06:25 <slava> its dynamically typed?
12:06:36 <warp0b00> define
12:06:44 <warp0b00> but im guessing 'no'
12:07:02 <slava> you have to be one or the other
12:07:07 <slava> eg, lisp is dynamically typed
12:07:16 <slava> objects have type tags at runtime
12:07:23 <slava> given an unknown object, i can query its type
12:07:36 <warp0b00> uhh
12:07:51 <warp0b00> okay i guess its dynamically typed then
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12:08:04 <slava> so why do you need casts?
12:08:37 <warp0b00> so that numerical constants start out in the right type
12:08:53 <slava> like turning 5 into 5.0 if the function expects a float?
12:08:58 <warp0b00> yeah
12:09:02 <warp0b00> its only for constant definition
12:09:10 <warp0b00> you cant cast anything else
12:09:21 <slava> why don't you just automatically cast in this case then?
12:10:03 <warp0b00> what if the constant you're writing is a complex type
12:10:15 <slava> complex type?
12:10:19 <slava> complex number?
12:10:20 <warp0b00> yeah like
12:10:22 <warp0b00> no
12:10:28 <warp0b00> like some bizzaro type
12:10:33 <slava> like what
12:10:52 <warp0b00> like a structure with a bunch of fields in it or something
12:11:01 <slava> why would you need to cast?
12:11:37 <warp0b00> okay you know in c
12:12:06 <warp0b00> when you're like struct blah bleh = { values };
12:12:39 <slava> yes
12:12:58 <warp0b00> it has to know what struct you're talking about doesn't it
12:13:10 <slava> it does from the declaration
12:13:17 <slava> oh i see what you mean
12:13:25 <warp0b00> yeah well thats what this does you friggin
12:13:31 <slava> in lisp they just have functions to make new instances of structures with initialied fields
12:13:43 <slava> (setf blah (make-instance 'foo x y z))
12:14:02 <warp0b00> yeah i know
12:14:06 <warp0b00> thats what you have to do in my language too
12:14:12 <slava> ok i see now
12:14:14 <warp0b00> except for numbers and strings and shit
12:14:22 <slava> but why numbers and strings
12:14:39 <warp0b00> because their types are handled partially by the compiler
12:14:56 <warp0b00> for the sake of brevity
12:15:44 <warp0b00> my language doesn't have any primitives
12:15:56 <warp0b00> so putting raw numbers and strings in is kindof a hack
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12:26:12 <slava> hi arke
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12:27:19 <arke|school> hi slava
12:29:55 --- nick: mur_ -> mur
12:31:42 <slava>  
12:34:11 <mur> empty line?
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12:35:07 <arke|school>  
12:42:32 <arke|school> :)
12:43:00 <mur> 
12:43:19 * arke|school sings
12:43:25 <arke|school> my friends are sooo depressed!!!
12:46:16 <wossname> how so, how so
12:47:05 <arke|school> i feel the question of your lonelyness
12:50:18 <I440r> who was it that said i should make my sort progie sort a million items ?
12:50:58 <wossname> me!
12:51:21 <I440r> well it takes 8 seconds to generate a million random 16 bit values and then sort them
12:51:41 <wossname> sweet
12:51:48 <wossname> what's the pc spec?
12:52:13 <arke|school> I440r: :)
12:52:24 <I440r> oh its not a slow box
12:52:28 <I440r> its a p4 2.8 with HT
12:52:35 <I440r> gotta try on slower box later
12:52:42 <wossname> ;/
12:52:52 <arke|school> thats still pretty fucking good
12:52:53 <wossname> 8 seconds isn't so great then, but it's not particularly optimized is it
12:52:57 <arke|school> especially on a DTC Forth
12:53:11 <arke|school> wossname: you gotta remember that this is a DTC Forth d0d
12:53:23 <wossname> i had no idea ;o
12:54:24 <I440r> thats 8 seconds to GENERATE and sort it
12:54:51 <arke|school> yea
12:54:55 <arke|school> and its interpreted
12:55:01 <arke|school> so its pretty fuckign god
12:55:05 <arke|school> er, good
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12:58:06 <I440r> ok, a p3 600 mhz just did it in 8 seconds too
12:58:10 <I440r> :/
12:58:41 <slava> lol
12:58:50 <slava> java generates 8 million random 16-bit ints and sorts them in...
12:58:52 <slava> drum roll please
12:58:55 <slava> 1.5 seconds
12:59:00 <zruty> wow
12:59:04 <slava> this is a 2.8ghz p4
12:59:14 <wossname> :(
12:59:44 <wossname> my c generates 1 million 32-bit ints and sorts in about 5 seconds
12:59:55 <zruty> sorts tend to generate lots of memory accesses and bust cache
13:00:09 <zruty> see how well it sorts a thousand ints, repeated a million times
13:00:11 <slava> wossname, your C is crap then :)
13:00:33 <wossname> bah. it's a p3 866mhz, and it has the inefficiency that it's using a list representation
13:00:39 <slava> oh its a slow cpu
13:00:39 <wossname> that, and it's crap ;o
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13:00:58 <wossname> slow ;_;
13:01:09 <wossname> modern cpus are getting too fast too quickly
13:01:14 <zruty> feh
13:01:17 <slava> I440r, why is your forth so slow? :)
13:01:17 <zruty> never fast enough
13:01:25 <wossname> i resolve from now on to write all sorting algorithms and such on my 386
13:01:43 <slava> wossname, or use existing sorting algorithms and not rewrite everything yourself :)
13:01:54 <wossname> where's the fun in that? ;o
13:02:02 <zruty> what's fun about writing sort algorithms?
13:02:10 <wossname> educational
13:02:15 <zruty> i already learned once
13:02:23 <zruty> after that it's just grunt work
13:02:31 <wossname> good, i have not learn all of them
13:02:54 <wossname> and sometimes, a language is just so different, it's nice to try writing an old one again
13:02:58 <slava> whoa i just saw that I440r said "one million" not "8 million"
13:03:28 <slava> 287 milliseconds for java to generate and sort a million shorts
13:03:38 <zruty> 1.5 seconds is like java's startup time ... did you check that it didn't get optimized away?
13:03:51 <slava> zruty, ugh, i used a timer in the code...
13:04:03 <slava> zruty, why would i time startup?
13:04:19 <wossname> ps, i find a 4-bit radix is faster than an 8-bit
13:04:45 <zruty> i time startup if i want to do dynamic code, stuff that changes a lot
13:04:59 <slava> zruty, and the startup is 100 ms not "1.5 seconds"
13:05:06 <slava> > time java test
13:05:06 <slava> 278
13:05:06 <slava> 0.362u 0.022s 0:00.45 84.4%     33+3517k 0+4io 0pf+0w
13:05:10 <slava> the first value is the timer in the code
13:05:12 <wossname> zruty h8 java :o
13:05:14 <slava> the secodn line is 'time' output
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13:05:52 <zruty> i find resin makes working with java more tolerable.  less cumbersome edit-compile-run cycle, and it's just fast
13:06:01 <slava> yeah i don't like edit-compile-run cycles either
13:06:17 <zruty> i'm actually getting a compile-edit-run cycle with perl code i'm working with
13:06:25 <slava> forth has the same problem though
13:06:31 <slava> since you can't redefine existing words in the dictoinary
13:06:36 <slava> you can only make new words with the same names
13:06:41 <zruty> yah but compile is typically instant
13:06:58 <zruty> my perl code is using Perl6::Parameters source filter
13:07:03 <zruty> adds like 30 seconds to the startup time
13:07:07 <slava> eew
13:07:13 <zruty> so i have to use Filter::ExtractSource and run the output of that instead
13:07:15 <slava> i hate perl and python, they're too slow
13:07:25 <zruty> basically i just added a compile cycle to my perl code
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13:07:47 <I440r> one million in 8 seconds :)
13:07:54 <zruty> python is not slow, but it is a memory pig
13:07:57 <slava> I440r, why is it so slow?
13:08:07 <I440r> slava what sort method ?
13:08:18 <slava> I440r, let me see
13:08:38 <I440r> and what machine
13:08:44 <slava>      * <p>The sorting algorithm is a tuned quicksort, adapted from Jon
13:08:45 <slava>      * L. Bentley and M. Douglas McIlroy's "Engineering a Sort Function",
13:08:45 <slava>      * Software-Practice and Experience, Vol. 23(11) P. 1249-1265 (November
13:08:45 <slava>      * 1993).  This algorithm offers n*log(n) performance on many data sets
13:08:45 <slava>      * that cause other quicksorts to degrade to quadratic performance.
13:08:48 <slava> I440r, pentium 4 2.8 ghz
13:09:13 <I440r> ok with HT yes ?
13:09:16 <slava> no
13:09:19 <zruty> quicksort isn't as popular these days
13:09:20 <I440r> no HT ?
13:09:22 <zruty> since it's not normally stable
13:09:23 <slava> switched off
13:09:40 <slava> zruty, they use quicksort for numbers and i think mergesort or heapsort for other types
13:09:41 <I440r> quick isnt "not normally" stable... its "NEVER" stable
13:10:28 <slava> yeah, mergesort
13:10:29 <zruty> there is a stable quicksort
13:10:34 <I440r> there is ?
13:10:36 <I440r> where ?
13:10:36 <slava> I440r, what sort do you use?
13:10:39 <slava> I440r, bubblesort? :)
13:10:45 <I440r> i bet its about as readable as the GNU itterative quick
13:10:51 <I440r> no - radix counting
13:11:00 <I440r> im sorting 4 times (once per nybble)
13:11:09 <zruty> i'm looking for references to it that aren't in german
13:11:18 <I440r> i can speed it up by using a 512 byte buffer for counts
13:11:19 <slava> ok i timed the two components
13:11:23 <slava> 84 ms to genreate random ints
13:11:25 <slava> 200ms to sort them
13:12:19 <I440r> one million ?
13:12:22 <slava> yes
13:12:30 <I440r> 1 with 6 zeros
13:12:41 <I440r> i cant believe java beat me!~
13:12:45 <zruty> http://xarch.tu-graz.ac.at/autocad/wiki/QuickSort
13:12:45 <I440r> not by THAT much
13:12:50 <zruty> stable quicksort
13:12:53 <slava> I440r, java generates native code
13:13:03 <zruty> in autolisp at that
13:13:26 <slava> http://paste.lisp.org/display/2569
13:13:41 <I440r> ick
13:13:46 <zruty> wonder how well cmucl does with sorting
13:14:10 <zruty> possible that clisp might actually beat it ..clisp is supposed to have fast numerics
13:14:15 <zruty> slow everything else tho
13:14:16 <slava> only fast bignums
13:14:21 <slava> i doubt it would be faster with fixnums
13:14:38 <slava> cmucl is 1.5-4x slower than the jvm in my experience
13:14:50 <slava> i've never tested clisp
13:15:02 <zruty> i keep wanting to get into lisp, but i can't do my wiki project in it -- no unicode
13:15:09 <slava> sbcl has unicode
13:15:14 <zruty> no kidding
13:15:16 <slava> the latest release anyway
13:15:26 <zruty> so in general sbcl > cmucl ?
13:15:32 <slava> yes i think so
13:15:34 <I440r> isforth doesnt produce native code - ill port my asm later :)
13:15:40 <zruty> hm.  should give it a whack
13:17:06 <slava> I440r, here is the results if i disable native code generation:
13:17:07 <slava> > java -Xint test
13:17:07 <slava> 629
13:17:07 <slava> 2524
13:17:30 <slava> this is using a technique similar to DTC
13:17:50 <slava> i guess the algorithms are better than isforth
13:17:52 <slava> not the interpreter
13:26:40 <I440r> i think it would be the interpreter not the algorithms
13:26:50 <I440r> because radix counting is one of the fastest sorts there is
13:27:02 <I440r> im crippling mine by sorting per nybble instead of per byte
13:28:13 <slava> but if your interpreter is DTC why would it be so slow?
13:28:22 <slava> are you constantly invalidating the cache by writing to your dictionary or something?
13:28:23 <I440r> not fast
13:28:32 <I440r> i have code and data in the same page
13:28:36 <slava> that's why
13:28:39 <slava> you're killing performance
13:28:42 <I440r> :)
13:29:04 <slava> in factor i keep the 'heads' of compiled words in the data heap, and a separate heap for code only
13:29:20 <I440r> yes i do to but theres more to it that that
13:29:26 <I440r> code can have data in it
13:29:30 <I440r> like a constant is defined as
13:29:36 <I440r> myconstat:]
13:29:38 <I440r>  call doconstant
13:29:47 <I440r>  dd value
13:29:52 <slava> that should not be a problem
13:29:57 <slava> as long as you're not WRITING to your  code area
13:30:18 <I440r> i am
13:30:26 <slava> you change constant values? :)
13:30:27 <I440r> myvariable:
13:30:29 <slava> lol
13:30:30 <I440r>  call dovariable
13:30:32 <I440r>  dd value
13:30:37 <slava> yeah that's kind of bad :)
13:31:01 <I440r> but easier to understand - it was a deliberate decision
13:31:25 <I440r> i want my code to NOT be obfuscated simply to follow some arbitary harvard architecuture
13:33:28 <warp0b00> anyway slava 
13:35:15 <slava> I440r, heh
13:35:17 <slava> I440r, yeah
13:35:27 <slava> warp0b00, yes?
13:36:29 <warp0b00> so i dont have that syntax quite worked out yet
13:37:11 <warp0b00> currently its name[type]initialvalue
13:59:40 * Tomasu is back (gone 16:30:12)
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14:37:40 <zruty> gah.  why do i hang out in #debian
14:37:47 <zruty> toxic nastiness there
14:38:52 <I440r> slava how long does it take java to sort 10 million ?
14:38:58 <I440r> just the sort part
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14:39:20 <zruty> i imagine n log n still holds
14:39:43 <arke|school> hi im back
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14:58:39 <I440r> lol 100 million items in 15 minutes ::)
14:59:36 <Topaz> can't help thinking a mergesort of 100 1 millions might help you a bit, heh
14:59:37 <zruty> good to know if i ever need to index 100 million rows in a db
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15:00:20 <zruty> *sigh* .. wish i could get motivated
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15:01:06 <I440r> ill rewrite it so that its doing on a per byte basis, not a per nybble basis :)
15:01:38 <I440r> which is how it would have been written except i wanted to complecate it for the exercise that nobody else did :P
15:01:57 <I440r> ill post eh code on CLF and see how long it takes M.H. to execute it
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16:03:41 <Herkamire> ok, I've thoroughly confused myself
16:05:06 <Herkamire> I think I've determined that the word I'm writing (when executed) must compile a literal, and a fetch, and a jump to the fetched address
16:07:04 <Herkamire> unless (at compiletime for the word I'm writing) some condition is met, in which case it should just compile a drop
16:07:14 <Herkamire> getting everything to happen at the right time is confusing
16:08:31 <Herkamire> no, I don't need to compile a fetch
16:08:59 <Herkamire> the address I want to branch to is not known at the compile time of the word I'm writing. but when my word is called, it will be known
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16:19:12 <slava> Herkamire, you need a word EXECUTE ( xt -- )
16:21:53 <Herkamire> I do, basically
16:22:12 <Herkamire> : jump ( ... addr -- ... )
16:23:08 <Herkamire> I haven't really decided on a definition for "execution token"
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16:23:30 <slava> Herkamire, just a pointer to code?
16:23:58 <Herkamire> yup
16:24:43 <Herkamire> but, anyway, if the address is known at compile time, it's much better to compile a branch
16:24:47 <Herkamire> instead of using jump
16:25:17 <Herkamire> jumping to an address that is not known until runtime is slow
16:25:19 <slava> i'm not familiar with the ppc instruction set
16:25:25 <slava> how is a jump differ from a branch?
16:25:34 <Herkamire> because you have to clear the pipelines
16:25:34 <slava> on x86 you can load an address into a register and jump to it etc
16:25:55 <slava> and a branch speciulatively executes?
16:26:01 <Herkamire> I'm not distinguishing jump and branch (no difference I'm aware of)
16:26:20 <slava> oh ok
16:26:31 <slava> but you just said the address is not known at compile time :)
16:27:08 <Herkamire> on ppc (and x86 I'm pretty sure) if the branch address is encoded in the instruction it's much much faster because the CPU knows where it's executing next ahead of time
16:27:24 <slava> yes of course
16:27:43 <Herkamire> slava: heh, that's the confusing part. I'm defining ,?lin-load
16:27:52 <Herkamire> at compiletime for ,?lin-load the address is not known.
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16:28:09 <Herkamire> but when I call ,?lin-load (which would be compile-time for _start
16:28:12 <Herkamire> the address is known
16:28:24 <slava> Herkamire, i'm sure the performance hit is not noticable unless its called many times in a loop
16:28:31 <Herkamire> and ,?lin-load can get ahold of the address at that time, and compile a branch into _start
16:28:46 <slava> yes
16:29:32 <slava> well if this is only called at startup then the performance hit will get lost in the noise
16:29:49 <Herkamire> I think it's wise (reguardless of whether it's important for performance) to push things --->>>
16:30:10 <Herkamire> runtime --> compile time --> edit time --> design time
16:30:32 <slava> sure
16:32:07 <Herkamire> generally makes things simpler too
16:32:44 <Herkamire> you're saying I could do: lit ,jump
16:33:01 <Herkamire> where as I'm doing: compile-branch
16:33:34 <slava> you call an indirect jump a 'jump', and a direct jump a 'branch"?
16:33:51 <slava> well if you're already doing compile-branch with an address that is known i don't see the problem
16:34:10 <slava> anyway i'm going out now, good luck
16:34:23 <Herkamire> branch is the name of the instruction
16:34:55 <Herkamire> jump is just what I named the word that takes an address on the stack and goes to it
16:35:01 <slava> ok
16:35:57 <Herkamire> in conventional forth yours would be: lit postpone jump
16:36:44 <Herkamire> in conventional forth yours would be: lit postpone execute
16:37:48 <Herkamire> I don't know. I just like to do everything right
16:37:59 <Herkamire> sticking to the philosophy above with the arrows
16:39:14 <Herkamire> you never know when it might come in handy that you have really tight, effecient code
16:39:27 <Herkamire> or better yet, simple
16:39:38 <mur_> moi TheBlueWizard !!
16:39:49 <Herkamire> eg I'm hoping herkforth will run at a nice speed in an emulator
16:39:59 <Herkamire> pearpc to be precice
16:41:51 <TheBlueWizard> mur_ terve!
16:42:05 <mur_> mitä kuuluu?
16:42:59 <TheBlueWizard> mur_: näykyy minun /whois
16:43:14 <mur_> heh
16:43:32 <mur_> katso minun /whoisia olisi paremmin
16:43:42 <mur_> heh
16:44:12 <TheBlueWizard> er....should that be näykykää?  I get a bit confused on the imperative forms :)
16:44:19 <mur_> näkyykö
16:44:54 <mur_> näkykää! = show! (if you shout to invisible things, "come visible!")
16:45:21 <TheBlueWizard> ah...I was trying to say "see"
16:45:27 <mur_> katsoa = to watch, have a look, look at
16:45:34 <arke> hi
16:45:35 <arke> :)
16:45:56 <mur_> näkyä  is not same as nähdä
16:45:59 <TheBlueWizard> I see...anyway, now I'm kinda, ahem, blue
16:46:20 <TheBlueWizard> I notice that....and it is easy to mix them up
16:46:37 <mur_> yes, 31% blue from nickname
16:46:53 <TheBlueWizard> boy, my Finnish is getting rusty...been busy for a long while, then bang! I'm now jobless
16:47:10 <mur_> what happened?
16:47:26 <TheBlueWizard> umm....I'll /msg you in private
16:48:04 <mur_> ok
16:48:16 <mur_> although its not that important ...
16:49:08 <mur_> hmmm
16:56:42 <Herkamire> oh fun ;) I need postpone to write postone
16:57:47 <I440r_> good :P
16:57:53 <I440r_> use compile and [compile] instead
16:57:58 <I440r_> neener neener neener!
16:58:05 <I440r_> }:)
17:01:27 <Herkamire> it isn't really any of those
17:01:32 <Herkamire> not sure what I should call it
17:02:06 <Herkamire> it takes a pointer to a words dictionary entry (an xt I guess) at runtime
17:02:10 <Herkamire> eh
17:02:12 <Herkamire> at compile time
17:02:50 <Herkamire> grrr
17:02:58 <Herkamire> I gotta stop trying to solve the "general problem"
17:03:05 <Herkamire> I don't have a general problem
17:05:02 <I440r_> thats what postpone does
17:05:07 <I440r_> it does one of the following
17:05:15 <I440r_> take next xt from execution stream and compile it
17:05:22 <I440r_> or. take next token from input stream and compile it
17:05:31 <I440r_> thats BAD~!!!!
17:05:42 <I440r_> thats TWO totally different things that it does
17:08:06 <Herkamire> what? it always takes from the input stream
17:08:33 <Herkamire> it just behaves differently depending on if it's an immediate or not
17:08:33 <I440r_> then how can it be used at RUN time
17:08:44 <Herkamire> you don't
17:08:50 <Herkamire> not in my understanding. 
17:08:55 <Herkamire> perhaps I have it all wrong
17:09:04 <I440r_> how can you make the current executing definition compile a specific XT intot eh definition being created
17:09:26 <I440r_> i.e. how do you make postpone do the job of both compile AND [compile]
17:10:00 <Herkamire> it executes compile if the next word on the input stream is an immediate, and [compile] otherwise
17:10:03 <Herkamire> basically
17:10:21 <I440r_> no. thats wrong
17:10:29 <I440r_> compile does not happen at compile time
17:10:32 <I440r_> it happens at RUN time
17:10:38 <I440r_> : foo compile bar ;
17:10:47 <I440r_> the definition for foo has two xt's in it
17:10:51 <I440r_> one for compile, one for batr
17:10:54 <I440r_> bar
17:11:02 <I440r_> when foo is executed it COMPILES BAR
17:11:44 <I440r_> : blah [compile] fud .... ;
17:11:59 <Herkamire> ok, so switch compile and [compile] in my explanation
17:12:00 <I440r_> fud is immediate. if you didnt have [compile] in there it would execute
17:12:28 <I440r_> i STILL cannot see how one single word can do the job of two TOTALLY DIFFERENT words
17:12:35 <I440r_> they simply have similar names
17:12:41 <Herkamire> I think it has an "if" in it
17:12:46 <mur_> good night
17:13:07 <I440r_> i.e. its an overloaded word
17:13:28 <I440r_> it has two totally different jobs depending on context
17:13:30 <I440r_> BAD
17:13:42 <I440r_> its there to allow you to NOT have to know the language
17:13:44 <TheBlueWizard> mur_: goot too
17:14:20 <Herkamire> yeah, I know it's evil
17:14:24 <Herkamire> but damn handy
17:14:30 <I440r_> no
17:14:35 <I440r_> learn the language
17:14:41 <Herkamire> this issue doesn't exist in herkforth BTW
17:14:44 <I440r_> use compile and [compile]
17:16:04 * TheBlueWizard notices what he wrote....arrgh!
17:16:10 <I440r_> hehe
17:16:20 <TheBlueWizard> what have I typed?!
17:16:41 <TheBlueWizard> alright I guess I need more "rest" :P
17:17:48 <Herkamire> while I recognize that postpone is ugly, and really like knowing exactly what the compiler is doing (and generally don't mind telling it exactly what to do) I like the idea of being able to go fiddle with the internals of the forth, and make an immediate version of some word for optomization purposes, and have it not screw up any existing code
17:18:17 <I440r_> isforth can do that
17:18:21 <I440r_> i have m:
17:18:49 <I440r_> you want to be able to do : blah postpone x postpone y postpone z ; immediate
17:18:54 <I440r_> right ?
17:19:08 <I440r_> m: blah x y s ;m
17:19:22 <I440r_> anywhere you reference blah x y and z will be compiled
17:19:33 <I440r_> m: foo 100 0 do i . loop ;m
17:19:47 <I440r_> you CANNOT do that with the limp wristed postpone method :)
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17:20:48 <yome> 1 2 3 nil cons cons cons .s
17:20:48 <yome> (1 2 3)
17:21:11 <yome> It's alive!
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17:22:58 <Herkamire> I440r_: that's cool. how'd you implement it? just save the string and EVALUATE when you call blah?
17:23:47 <I440r_> no.. it basically creats an immediate : definition that knows how many tokens it has in it and when referenced it just transfers them into the definition being created
17:23:54 <I440r_> it has to adjust loop addresses etc of corse
17:24:07 <I440r_> you can also have ." in the macro
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17:25:03 --- nick: [fnord] -> yome
17:28:23 <I440r_> i dont have any evaluate
17:28:36 <I440r_> evaluate is ANOTEHR definition i refuse to fuck up my forth with
17:29:21 <I440r_> the other ans way would be to " blah blah blah" evaluate
17:29:44 <I440r_> which totally destroys ANY chance of using these in a turnkeyd applicaiton
17:29:50 <I440r_> i dont have THAT restriction either
17:30:51 <arke> i440: about your m: thing
17:31:08 <arke> I440r_: Sonarman has a much more flexible method which he created 
17:31:15 <arke> I440r_: p[ and ]p
17:31:27 <arke> I440r_: works with any ANS forth and probably others too with minor modification
17:34:15 <I440r_> ans is not forth
17:34:29 <I440r_> and how is p{ more flexable?
17:34:34 <I440r_> ill modify mine :)
17:34:41 <arke> you can embed p[ in a word
17:34:42 <arke> like
17:34:49 <arke> : blah moo if p[ cheese blah x y 
17:35:03 <arke> : blah moo if p[ cheese blah x y ]p else postpone asdfjkl then ;
17:35:21 <I440r_> err his isnt more flexable - his is LESS FACTORED!!!!!
17:35:29 <I440r_> m: option-1 blah blah ;
17:35:38 <I440r_> m: option-2 foo foo ;
17:35:39 <arke> well, i guess thats true
17:35:48 <I440r_> : fud if option-1 else option-2 then;
17:35:52 <arke> but you're not always holding to the small-word rule either ;)
17:36:13 <I440r_> no but i can accomplish the same thing in a more factored way :P
17:36:18 <I440r_> so :P~
17:36:20 <I440r_> hehe
17:36:35 <arke> you're still not always doing it the most factored way :)
17:36:40 <I440r_> nope
17:36:56 <I440r_> im not anally retentive about being absolutely factored to the umpteenth level
17:36:57 <arke> i could find one within 2 seconds of looking through isforth :P
17:37:57 <I440r_> :)
17:38:15 <I440r_> not factoring the way C coders dont factor is a bad thing
17:38:33 <I440r_> factoring eveything down to the minutest detail isnt a BAD thing but its pointless
17:38:49 <I440r_> thers a balance
17:39:53 <Herkamire> I agree
17:40:02 <Herkamire> it's hard to make decent names if they are too small
17:40:18 <I440r_> and it fills up your dictionary needlessly
17:40:44 <I440r_> i wasnt going to implement dictionaries at first - or headerless words
17:40:53 <I440r_> im opposed to "information hiding"
17:41:07 <I440r_> im all for the sharing of a function accross modules
17:41:16 <Herkamire> oh
17:41:18 <I440r_> why have 2034896520384765 different identical functions
17:41:19 <Herkamire> you mean vocabularies
17:41:30 <I440r_> err yea
17:41:30 <I440r_> duh
17:41:37 <Herkamire> I was trying to think how you intended to have a forth without a dictionary :)
17:41:40 <Herkamire> hehe
17:41:43 <I440r_> the problem is that the dictionary fills up with ALL KINDS OF CRUFT
17:41:50 <I440r_> TURNKEY :p
17:41:52 <I440r_> LOL
17:41:53 <I440r_> artgh
17:41:54 <I440r_> caps
17:48:34 <arke> err...
17:48:37 <arke> thats interestinf
17:48:41 <arke> that you would say that lol
17:49:52 <I440r_> say what ?
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17:56:25 <I440r_> grr i wish google read clf more often - instead of like every 5 or 6 hours grrrr
17:56:44 <I440r_> or. i wish i had an nttp server i could use for free AND post
17:56:54 <I440r_> other than gmane
17:56:56 <I440r_> fuck that shit
17:56:59 <I440r_> gmain ?
17:57:00 <I440r_> i ferget
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18:51:50 <I440r_> sc
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19:31:35 <kazuya> does anyone know if there is a Forth for solaris-sparc?
19:31:44 <kazuya> can someone point me to a link
19:34:32 <I440r_> there probably is
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19:34:38 <I440r_> but i dont know of one...
19:34:49 <kazuya> well, heh, OpenBoot uses Forth
19:34:51 <I440r_> if i had a sparc id write one :)
19:34:53 <kazuya> but i need something to play with in userland
19:35:05 <I440r_> well yea but i dont count that as a forth :P
19:35:31 <kazuya> I440r_: you really should get a sparc, if you're a forth fanatic. it's like hardware designed for people like you. the entire system's BIOS/boot program is Forth-based
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19:36:42 <I440r_> :)
19:37:26 <I440r_> cant afford one :/
19:38:22 <kazuya> you can get older ones off ebay cheaply
19:38:30 <kazuya> i'd get a nice little dual-cpu Ultra 60
19:38:43 <kazuya> can't be more than like $500
19:39:24 <I440r_> so do you only have a sparc or do you have other machines too ?
19:39:30 <kazuya> other ones too
19:39:46 <I440r_> <shamelss plug> isforth.clss.net </shameless plug>
19:39:46 <I440r_> hehe
19:39:50 <kazuya> ...
19:40:02 <kazuya> you wrote your own forth?!
19:40:04 <I440r_> soon to release a fbsd version of that and a ppc version
19:40:08 <I440r_> ya
19:40:11 <I440r_> anyone can do that
19:40:23 <kazuya> anyone can theoretically write their own GCC
19:40:27 <kazuya> but you don't see many doing it ;-)
19:40:38 <I440r_> many of the ppl in here writing their own forth
19:41:10 <kazuya> it must be something intrinsic to forth itself. i don't see too many C programmers writing their own compiler...
19:41:11 <I440r_> err no. there are about 10 people in the world who could write a professional grade c compiler from scratch solo
19:41:18 <I440r_> and 8 of them wouldnt wanna
19:41:19 <kazuya> hmmm.
19:41:32 <I440r_> forth encourages you to understand its core
19:41:36 <kazuya> so why does forth lend itself so well to being rewritten?
19:41:40 <I440r_> c discourages you from knowing ANYTHING
19:41:50 <kazuya> that might be a sign of the simplicity and weakness of the language..?
19:41:51 <I440r_> because forth is simple
19:42:01 <I440r_> and simple == strength
19:42:11 <kazuya> well, i always thought simple == less features
19:42:16 <I440r_> not so
19:42:21 <I440r_> forth has ANY feature you want
19:42:32 <I440r_> its absolutely extensible
19:42:37 <kazuya> can i browse the web with forth?
19:42:47 <kazuya> run a large database?
19:42:51 <I440r_> you can if you extend it to do so... thats on my todo list actually
19:43:06 <I440r_> im sort of got a sockets lib written but its not complete
19:43:07 <I440r_> hang on
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19:43:39 <I440r_> thats my forth compiler running my sockets extension plus a do nothing irc bot extension
19:43:39 <kazuya> i think yoy forth fanatics just tend to overlook the flaws in your language to a great degree
19:43:48 <kazuya> it's great for little things, like embedded devices
19:43:49 <I440r_> what flaws ?
19:43:52 <I440r_> the only flaw is this
19:43:58 <kazuya> but it just lacks any kind of scaleability
19:44:00 <I440r_> it will never be universally accepted
19:44:05 <I440r_> WHAT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
19:44:07 <I440r_> lol
19:44:12 <I440r_> thats absolutely not true
19:44:22 <kazuya> i have never seen any really large-scale projects effectively written in forth
19:44:40 <I440r_> ok - would you call the entire fed-ex tracking system large ?
19:44:49 <I440r_> the space shuttle robotic arm simulator ?
19:44:54 <kazuya> are you telling me Fed-Ex uses forth to run its entire tracking system?
19:45:03 <I440r_> forth inc wrote it
19:45:32 <kazuya> like i said, forth excels at small, tightly controlled, high-performance embedded stuff
19:45:51 <kazuya> with little user input and unknown input data
19:45:56 <I440r_> did you ever hear a a really DUMB game called "leasure suit larry in the land of the lounge lizards" ?
19:46:05 <kazuya> why yes i've played that ;-)
19:46:08 <kazuya> that's a classic
19:46:11 <I440r_> that was coded in forth
19:46:15 <kazuya> er.
19:46:30 <kazuya> as far as i remember, Sierra used some kind of custom interpreter called AGI
19:46:34 <kazuya> or SCI for later games
19:46:41 <I440r_> forth :)
19:46:43 <kazuya> that was forth?
19:46:45 <kazuya> neat
19:46:46 <I440r_> you think they would admit it ?
19:46:49 <I440r_> lol
19:46:56 <kazuya> where did you learn that? i've never seen that anywhere
19:47:07 <kazuya> i mean, i used to hexedit old DOS game files, never once saw Forth anywhere ;-)
19:47:09 <I440r_> hrm ya know i forget where i saw that
19:47:25 <I440r_> i have PERSONALLY seen a doom type game written in forth
19:47:34 <I440r_> i used to have the sources but i lost it to a drive crash
19:47:49 <kazuya> drive crash, huh? :-)
19:48:03 <I440r_> i wish i hadnt, those sources were neat
19:48:09 <I440r_> by mountain view press
19:48:14 <I440r_> im not sure i was supposed to have those
19:48:25 <I440r_> and ive no freekin idea where i got em lol
19:48:44 <kazuya> maybe some hax0r uploaded stolen source kodez to your anonymous ftp one night
19:49:03 <kazuya> in the morning: <i440r> yay! christmas came early!
19:49:17 <I440r_> no i got em off a floppy i aquired somewhere but back then i was swapping floppies with friends all the time
19:49:26 <I440r_> heh
19:49:56 <kazuya> good way to get STDs
19:50:03 <kazuya> Software Transmitted Diseases ;-)
19:50:19 <I440r_> i also have a apple IIe emulator here thats used to play Wizardry on a PC
19:50:30 <I440r_> thats done in a token threaded forth 
19:50:40 <I440r_> ive been meaning to reverse engineer that some day
19:51:01 <I440r_> tho i doubt i will now
19:51:16 <kazuya> you sound like you know a lot about forth.
19:51:19 <kazuya> let me ask you something else
19:51:41 <kazuya> would there be any benefit to creating some kind of Garbage collection system in a forth?
19:51:47 <kazuya> to like, clean up the dictionary
19:51:50 <kazuya> or something
19:51:59 <kazuya> or does it already have one?
19:52:12 <I440r_> well i have personally got no use for any sort of GC
19:52:51 <I440r_> my forth has a memory manager but no gc
19:53:02 <I440r_> if you had use for it you could add it :)
19:53:17 <I440r_> and if the sources were good i might add same to my distro
19:53:19 <kazuya> yeah, i was thinking that would be a neat way to get into forth internals hacking
19:53:39 <kazuya> although that might go against the original forth ideals put forth by Chuck Moore
19:53:40 <I440r_> im not against GC -- i just have no persona use for it
19:53:42 <kazuya> pun not intended
19:53:58 <I440r_> isforth already goes against chucks teachings
19:54:07 <I440r_> isforth is very much NOT minimalist
19:54:09 <kazuya> i know chuck is like, against any kind of complexity, heh
19:55:02 <kazuya> isn't he the guy who measures data by floppy disk tracks...
19:56:00 <I440r_> blocks ?
19:59:17 <kazuya> i heard somewhere Chuck Moore measures his programs in floppy disk tracks :-)
20:02:01 <kazuya> basically he wants to conserve every bit of storage he can. squeeze every last byte
20:02:16 <kazuya> he kinda needs to stop living in the 70s to be honest
20:02:49 --- join: I440r (~mark4@216-110-82-59.gen.twtelecom.net) joined #forth
20:03:05 <I440r> oopts
20:03:44 <kazuya> ?
20:03:56 <I440r> blew up my network connection 
20:04:03 <I440r> was too lazy to fix it right so i just rebooted :P
20:04:20 <kazuya> wow that's lazy
20:04:33 <I440r> heh
20:04:34 <kazuya> do you reboot whenever X freezes too?
20:04:53 <I440r> x never freezes
20:04:59 * arke COUGH
20:05:11 <fridge> I don't see any problem with chuck living in the 70's
20:05:18 <fridge> to each their own =D
20:06:14 <kazuya> I440r must be running a special X11-uncrashable fork of X
20:06:27 <fridge> I haven't had X freeze in a long time
20:07:01 <fridge> I440r: I got a firearms license
20:07:19 <fridge> it took 15 weeks for the application to go through =\
20:07:44 <kazuya> you're all set for fully automatic fun!
20:07:56 <kazuya> time to stock up on the AK's and M16s
20:08:21 <fridge> I wish
20:08:39 <I440r> fridge for where ?
20:08:49 <fridge> .au
20:09:06 <I440r> fridge your in australia and have a firearms lisence ?
20:09:16 <I440r> i thunked .au totally banned all firearms
20:09:26 <I440r> .au and .uk
20:09:31 <kazuya> the land of the convicts banning guns?
20:09:34 <kazuya> yikes
20:09:43 <I440r> the confiscted and destroyed tehm all
20:09:53 <kazuya> the criminals are going to have a free ride in those countries...
20:09:57 <I440r> subsequently australia has one of the highest rates of violent crimes of any country
20:10:02 <fridge> I440r: they banned semi-autos
20:10:14 <I440r> fridge i thunked they bannded ALL
20:10:15 <I440r> england did
20:10:20 <kazuya> you guys must have hated Bowling for Columbine. heh.
20:10:49 <fridge> I'm allowed to get bolt action rifles now
20:10:57 <I440r> no i just hate the lying bastard that presented it
20:11:03 <I440r> fridge cool!
20:11:07 <fridge> I440r: you can get bolt actions and handguns in australia
20:11:09 <I440r> get an adl-700
20:11:13 <I440r> remington
20:11:17 <I440r> get 30-06 :)
20:11:18 <fridge> and semi automatics if you're in a few select professions
20:11:20 <kazuya> you're so strongly opinionated. man, it must have been something to see you watching that movie in the theater
20:11:26 <kazuya> you were probably one of those guys shouting at the screen
20:11:34 <I440r> its not a movie
20:11:42 <I440r> its propoganda and full of lies
20:12:17 <fridge> like shooting bronco's from helicopters
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20:12:29 <fridge> or wild dogs etc
20:12:36 --- quit: I440r_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
20:12:39 <fridge> I440r: I'm not sure what to get
20:12:41 <I440r> which is why blockbuster always put a note in the case with the movie that "if you want an opposing view go here" with a link to a URL disproving 99% of what was said in that
20:12:46 <fridge> my parents moved out into the bush
20:12:53 <fridge> and they have lots of rabbits & foxes
20:12:55 <I440r> for why ?
20:13:07 <I440r> they abandoned you!
20:13:08 <I440r> lol
20:13:15 <I440r> usually it would beh the other way round
20:13:26 <I440r> they abandon YOU in the bush and return hehe
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20:13:37 <fridge> nah, I moved away from home to sydney first
20:13:45 <I440r> heh
20:13:50 <fridge> they just moved from the 'burbs
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20:14:01 <I440r> cool
20:14:15 <I440r> a friend of mine and i were going to go to the outback with our metal detectors
20:14:28 <I440r> and metal detect our way accorss australia
20:14:35 <I440r> didnt even care if we found any gold lol
20:14:44 <fridge> http://hovil.customer.netspace.net.au/view.jpg
20:14:57 <fridge> thats what I wake up to when I visit them
20:14:58 <I440r> but there is gold to be had in the outback - but it might belong to the natives
20:15:24 <I440r> wow
20:15:25 <I440r> awesome!
20:17:15 <fridge> except that was taken in the afternoon
20:17:25 <I440r> heh
20:17:27 <fridge> they would be a big sun coming up over the ocean in the morning
20:17:29 <fridge> =)
20:18:58 <arke> hey
20:18:59 <kazuya> heh
20:19:07 <arke> how do i copy from GTK and paste it in Xterm?
20:19:10 <kazuya> wouldn't that be something if you found some ancient cache of gold
20:19:19 <kazuya> or some priceless artifacts
20:19:19 <I440r> middle mouse button
20:19:26 <arke> I440r: doesn't work. 
20:19:27 <kazuya> then you wouldn't have to work another day in your life
20:19:28 <I440r> or both buttons if you have emulate middle
20:19:43 <arke> I440r: for some reason, it will paste whatever was selected last in xterm and ignores the GTK one
20:19:55 <I440r> ?
20:19:58 <I440r> weird
20:20:01 <fridge> kazuya: I recall a few years ago someone found something of great value
20:20:07 <fridge> and the government just took it
20:20:11 <fridge> without any compensation
20:20:11 <kazuya> bah
20:20:15 <kazuya> that's why you don't tell anyone about it
20:20:17 <fridge> wish I could recall what it was exactly
20:20:18 <kazuya> and sell it on the black market
20:20:24 <I440r> in england they have an inquest
20:20:27 <fridge> kazuya: yeah, at least until you get it out of the country
20:20:31 <I440r> if the item(s) were abandoned they are yours
20:20:47 <kazuya> that's where smuggling comes into play
20:20:48 <I440r> if they were put there with the intent of coming back they belong to the government but you get the full market value
20:21:27 <fridge> haha, yet another throwback to our convict heritage
20:21:36 <fridge> australian gov just pinches it
20:21:43 <kazuya> hahaha
20:22:13 <kazuya> good old convict government pickpockets your find
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21:43:47 --- mode: ChanServ set +o futhin
21:44:14 <futhin> so kc5tja gave me a link to an essay about prototypical object oriented system
21:44:17 <futhin> NICE
21:44:28 <futhin> much cleaner implementation in forth
21:44:31 <futhin> none of that class bullshit
21:44:52 <futhin> er, i mean, it will be a much cleaner to implement in forth
21:45:13 <I440r> so implement it in isforth
21:45:44 <futhin> i440r, whatever, don't push your forth on me heh
21:46:01 * I440r thwaps futhin 
21:46:02 <futhin> however i'm still not sure of the value of OOP at all
21:46:27 <futhin> i think forth already has a partial object system
21:47:08 <futhin> anyone here want to talk about whether OOP is good or bad
21:48:19 <futhin> i440r: have you read the Thoughtful Programming artical?
21:48:31 <futhin> is that the methodology you follow?
21:48:42 <I440r> never erad it
21:48:47 <I440r> never read
21:49:11 <futhin> http://ultratechnology.com/forththoughts.htm
21:51:12 <I440r> reading
21:52:38 <futhin> its chuck moore's methodology
21:53:16 <kazuya> are you guys going to play Half-life 2?
21:54:16 <futhin> kazuya: i don't play computer games :)
21:55:21 <kazuya> futhin: why not?!
21:55:51 <I440r> the problem with articles like that one is that i get a millionth of the way thru and get bored of reading it lol
21:55:59 <futhin> used to be addicted to that, but i've gone cold turkey for 2 years :D
21:56:08 <futhin> I440r: it gets better halfway thru :)
21:56:23 <I440r> heh
21:56:31 <I440r> ill hafta print it at work monday
21:57:39 <kazuya> I440r: how about you?
21:58:14 <I440r> i play MUD or "the settlers" and thats it
21:58:20 <I440r> the original settlers
21:58:32 <I440r> settlers 2 and up are weener kiddie games in comparison
21:59:15 <kazuya> hahah, settlers?
21:59:34 <kazuya> isnt' that one of those Warcraft clones?
21:59:44 <futhin> nah it came before warcraft i think
21:59:47 <I440r> is it fsck
21:59:52 <futhin> anyways warcraft is a clone of dune 2
21:59:55 <I440r> warcraft came AFTER the original settlers
22:00:01 <futhin> dune 2 is the original RTS game
22:00:08 <kazuya> futhin: that sounds about right
22:00:10 <I440r> settlers 2 and up are weeker kiddie games JUST LIKE warcraft
22:00:10 <futhin> settlers isn't RTS tho
22:00:13 <kazuya> i need to get around to playing Dune2
22:00:18 <futhin> i440r, you still mudding?
22:00:19 <I440r> warcraft is the ultimate weener kiddie game
22:00:22 <I440r> yup
22:00:24 <kazuya> I440r: heh
22:00:26 <kazuya> so true
22:00:30 <kazuya> however, it's fun in short spurts
22:00:34 <arke> squeak is hella impressive
22:00:42 <kazuya> I440r: so is this settlers thing like, turn-based?
22:00:53 <futhin> kazuya: hah i never finished dune2, i got to the last level for the good guys but the harkonnens kept bombing the shit out of me
22:00:53 <I440r> not its realtime
22:00:57 <kazuya> you know what would be neat. a Settlers for Forth ;-)
22:01:10 <I440r> a multii player online version
22:01:11 <futhin> kazuya: i tried to play it again, but i'm too used to being able to select multiple units
22:01:20 <futhin> in dune2 you have to select each unit at a time
22:01:34 <futhin> annoying
22:01:49 <I440r> in the settleres there can be like a gazillion different things happening all at the same time 
22:01:52 <I440r> in realtime
22:02:10 <I440r> you can have over 50 thousand characters moving arround the map
22:02:11 <futhin> i played settlers
22:02:15 <futhin> got my assed whupped
22:02:16 <I440r> its like freekin awesome
22:02:23 <I440r> then you got all the items too
22:02:33 <kazuya> futhin: that's how warcraft is too
22:02:43 <kazuya> it's like, micromanagement, click-click-click
22:02:45 <kazuya> gets annoying
22:02:56 <futhin> warcraft is a lot easier to manage than dune2 :)
22:03:01 <kazuya> yikes
22:03:22 <futhin> dune2 you have to click a unit, then you have to click on the"move"  or "attack" button then you click on the terrain
22:03:45 <kazuya> seriously, has anyone written any like, real games in forth that use graphics and such?
22:03:48 <futhin> at least with warcraft you can select 8 units and then do the attack or move with one click (right or left) of the mouse
22:04:05 <futhin> yeah there was some "stars" game or something in forth
22:04:06 <kazuya> man, forth would really be great for some simple games
22:04:07 <futhin> i forget
22:04:14 <futhin> back in the early 80s
22:04:16 <arke> wow
22:04:17 <I440r> kazuya, i told you - ive seen a DOOM style game written in forth
22:04:21 <arke> this is friggin' awsome
22:04:23 <kazuya> I440r: that's a dubious claim
22:04:29 <I440r> and leisure suit is written in froth
22:04:31 <I440r> forth
22:04:31 <kazuya> I440r: you "lost" the entire game ;-)
22:04:35 <I440r> ya
22:04:39 <I440r> i lost the sources :(
22:04:45 <I440r> email MVP and ask them
22:04:47 <kazuya> arke: squeak?
22:04:47 <I440r> they wrote it
22:04:49 --- quit: mur_ (Remote closed the connection)
22:04:58 <kazuya> arke: i've been trying to learn smalltalk a bit myself lately
22:05:07 <kazuya> i just downloaded a new Squeak image today
22:05:09 <arke> kazuya: seems fun :)
22:05:18 <kazuya> arke: i wish the interface was a little more polished
22:06:03 <arke> even so, it is impressive and VERY fast
22:06:12 <arke> considering its layered and interpreted
22:06:29 <kazuya> it really chugs on my machine
22:06:31 <futhin> layered?
22:06:40 <arke> futhin: yeah. its running on X
22:06:44 <kazuya> i'm surprised a forther like you would be impressed by it
22:06:46 <arke> futhin: and its blazingly fast here.
22:06:48 --- join: mur (~mur@mgw2.uiah.fi) joined #forth
22:06:53 <kazuya> it's like, the exact opposite of forth
22:06:55 <futhin> arke, what does layered me
22:07:05 <arke> kazuya: hehe, i know. 
22:07:10 <futhin> kazuya: its not imperative, thats whats important to forthers ;)
22:07:19 <kazuya> in fact i'm surprised futhin or i440r haven't kicked you yet for mentioning Squeak
22:07:24 <futhin> squeak has lots of similarties anyways
22:07:32 <arke> hehe
22:07:40 <kazuya> futhin: ah
22:07:41 <arke> naah, we are very open about languages here
22:07:42 <futhin> i was contemplating following the squeak model with forth
22:07:48 <futhin> having an implementation on every Os
22:07:59 <kazuya> arke: are you kidding me? i440r goes on "C sucks major ass" rants all the time in other channels
22:08:00 <futhin> w/ graphics & internet etc support
22:08:18 <arke> kazuya: he's the exception to the rule.
22:08:33 <kazuya> he's like "i wouldn't TOUCH C with a ten foot pole! i'm not gonna code in anything but forth or asm unless i'm being paid $40 an hour!"
22:08:36 <I440r> c does suck
22:08:36 <kazuya> etc... heh.
22:08:50 <futhin> well i'm against imperative languages like c/c++/java/etc
22:08:58 <I440r> im being paid more than that
22:09:16 <futhin> as i blame the faulty paradigm behind them as fucking up the operating systems and large software pakcages
22:09:20 <kazuya> I440r: for C development?
22:09:26 <kazuya> wow, $40 an hour
22:09:30 <futhin> creating bloat, etc
22:09:33 <kazuya> and it's like, post-dotcom era too
22:09:39 <kazuya> how the hell did you manage to pull that off ;-)
22:09:42 <Herkamire> man, it's hard to kill people with a tooth-pick sized stick
22:09:50 <I440r> lol
22:10:07 <kazuya> I440r: contract work, right? what kind of stuff are you doing, exactly?
22:10:11 <futhin> Herkamire: it can be done, remember, its not size that matters, its how you use it! ;)
22:10:13 <I440r> im not getting more than that actually but i ended up with less money when i WAS
22:10:28 <I440r> so effectivly im earning more than that
22:10:39 <kazuya> I440r: how do you find these contract jobs?
22:10:55 <I440r> $500 an hour was my minimum when contracting. and im no longer contracting
22:11:01 <kazuya> klfjlkdjfk
22:11:09 <kazuya> you mean $50/hour, right?
22:11:09 <I440r> argh
22:11:10 <I440r> no
22:11:11 <I440r> 50
22:11:15 <kazuya> heh
22:11:20 <Herkamire> futhin: hehe :)
22:11:21 <I440r> i KNOW i didnt put that extra zero in there
22:11:39 <kazuya> I440r: man, if you were being paid $500 an hour...
22:11:45 <futhin> then you got a ghostwriter!!!!
22:11:49 <I440r> i'd have died
22:12:06 <I440r> futhin, lol good idea heh
22:12:10 <Herkamire> futhin: unfortunately this is a mud, where you don't get to be quite that creative in combat :)
22:12:11 <futhin> tehre was a tv show called "ghostwriter" and it was about a ghost that wrote on your computer
22:12:21 <kazuya> i think i saw an episode of that once
22:12:26 <kazuya> some cheesy 80s teen show
22:12:34 <futhin> Herkamire: lol, you're mudding?! :) what kind of mud
22:12:47 <futhin> i go thru episodes of mudding
22:13:00 <Herkamire> discworld
22:13:02 <kazuya> I440r: what kind of work were you doing that allowed you to demand a minimum of $50/hr? i mean, that still seems pretty steep for like, C development or Forth stuff
22:13:06 <futhin> prolly mud for a month a year
22:13:14 <kazuya> i don't know of too many places hiring forth contracters
22:13:43 <futhin> Herkamire: have you mudded before? have you mudded a lot?
22:13:49 <Herkamire> there's a huge world, with cities, guilds, magic etc
22:13:56 <Herkamire> there's quests you can discover
22:14:07 <Herkamire> I've played this one a lot, and one other one for a bit.
22:14:08 <kazuya> Herkamire: what's the address of the mud server?
22:14:14 <I440r> kazuya, im not contracting any more - and $50 an hour was LOW
22:14:18 <Herkamire> tathi tried a ton of muds and says discworld is by far the best
22:14:22 <kazuya> I440r: why'd you stop?
22:14:30 <Herkamire> discworld.imaginary.com
22:14:44 <futhin> yeah kazuya, 60 to 70 to 80 is more common rates..  don' tforget, the company hiring you doesn't have to pay your medical, pension, etc
22:14:58 <Herkamire> discworld.atuin.net
22:15:06 <Herkamire> I guess the first is a redirect
22:15:36 <I440r> materiamagica is good - but i have issues with the way its run
22:15:53 <kazuya> i've only played on hypercube.org
22:15:55 <futhin> Herkamire: whats the highest level you can get in discworld?  or is it levelless?
22:16:02 <I440r> you also pay your own expenses
22:16:04 <futhin> kazuya: whats that like?
22:16:11 <kazuya> kind of boring actually
22:16:17 <Herkamire> futhin: you can go as high as you want
22:16:17 <kazuya> that's why i never looked for other MUDs
22:16:30 <futhin> I440r: i got to lvl16 or something in mm
22:16:42 <Herkamire> although it gets harder and harder to advance of course
22:17:03 <I440r> i previously made it to upper second class
22:17:08 <I440r> that was a long time ago tho
22:17:12 <I440r> im upper first now
22:17:23 <Herkamire> I think I've heard of people getting skills up to like 600 or 800 or something rediculous
22:17:27 <futhin> well it turns me off when a mud doesn't keep it interesting for higher levels and doesn't have the potential super high
22:17:36 <kazuya> so, have all of you guys in here done contract forth work at some point, or what?
22:17:43 <futhin> i wouldn't want to play a mud if its all over at 100
22:17:51 <Herkamire> there's a bunch of people that have been playing for 10 years
22:18:02 <futhin> kazuya: did some coding in postscript as part of a contract :P
22:18:02 <Herkamire> they still come on and have fun
22:18:41 <futhin> Herkamire: what were tathi's parameters when he went thru the various muds
22:19:04 <futhin> i think i was slightly prejudiced against dicworld but i can't remember why
22:19:08 <Herkamire> futhin: don't know. ask him
22:19:23 <Herkamire> it's really fun
22:19:26 <Herkamire> today is beard day
22:19:36 <Herkamire> the game makes me laugh regularly
22:19:56 <kazuya> beard day?
22:20:16 <futhin> my "beard day" usually lasts several days
22:20:21 <kazuya> hmm, should i try this Discworld mud or that materiamagica
22:20:36 <kazuya> which would be more fun for a MUD noob?
22:20:40 <futhin> actually i only shave once every 4  days, it doesn't start becoming "beard day" until the 4th,5th day
22:21:03 <kazuya> i don't have "beard days", i usually get "white trash mustache and chin stubble day"
22:21:05 <futhin> i also don't do clean shaves, i use a beard trimmer and just trim as short as i can
22:21:22 <kazuya> hopefully when i get older it will fill out a bit more ;-)
22:21:50 <futhin> girls look at me more when i have a super short/stubble beard going
22:22:05 <kazuya> it's that Marlboro Man look
22:22:06 <kazuya> rugged
22:22:10 <Herkamire> kazuya: lol
22:22:15 <futhin> yup
22:22:40 <futhin> girls are essentially attracted to men, so emphasize the masculine features and they're flocking to you
22:22:47 <kazuya> futhin: how tall are you?
22:23:06 <futhin> 5'10
22:23:43 <futhin> http://thin.bespin.org/pics/
22:24:05 <kazuya> i think i'd get chicks if i were only slightly taller
22:24:45 <futhin> if you think that, just don't hang around guys taller than you
22:24:53 <kazuya> i wish i had like, 2 or 3 more inches
22:24:58 <kazuya> then i'd be the perfect height
22:25:04 <futhin> but it really has less to do with height or even appearance
22:25:23 <futhin> girls respond much more to confidence
22:25:28 <kazuya> yeah
22:25:30 <futhin> thats how they select men
22:25:39 <kazuya> i still would like to be around 6'2" or 6'3"
22:25:44 <kazuya> being 6' sucks, it's so generic
22:25:44 <futhin> we select them visually, for bearing babies
22:26:15 <futhin> they select us for confidence, as it indicates where we rank on the male hierarchy
22:26:40 <futhin> on the other hand, they are mostly recievers
22:26:55 <futhin> just being assertive gets them hot
22:26:55 <kazuya> they basically look for the alpha male
22:27:19 <kazuya> you have to be aggressive and a bit of an asshole, those are traits strongly valued by women
22:27:25 <kazuya> unfortunately for most geeks
22:27:59 <Herkamire> yeah, we're more of the silent, take over the world form the comfort of our own basement types.
22:28:11 <futhin> well even the beta chimpanzees were fucking the female chimps when the alpha chimp was looking away..  heck, they'd go behind a bush so the alpha chimp could see them but not know that the beta chimp was poking the girl chimp
22:28:45 <kazuya> heh
22:28:46 <Herkamire> futhin: that's a little graphic
22:28:53 <kazuya> are you a beta male, futhin?
22:29:30 <kazuya> i think we're even like, cappa or delta males
22:29:41 <futhin> kazuya: no, especially since o don't believe the alpha,beta distinctions even apply
22:29:46 <futhin> s/o/i
22:29:56 <Herkamire> there's info on the net on how to act more like the alpha male
22:30:42 <futhin> don't worry about acting like "the alpha male"  worry more about "being a real MAN"  "being confident" etc
22:30:50 <futhin> walk straight
22:31:00 <futhin> flex all your muscles like bruce lee does
22:31:04 <futhin> that raises your confidence
22:31:21 <Herkamire> bruce lee looks creepy
22:31:29 <futhin> heh :)
22:31:33 <kazuya> haha
22:32:24 <kazuya> wow, i440r is really on to something
22:32:30 <kazuya> forth is a lot more valuable than i first realized
22:32:33 <Herkamire> confidence is big
22:32:36 <Herkamire> eye contact
22:32:38 <I440r> either that or im ON something
22:32:39 <I440r> lol
22:32:41 <Herkamire> mirroring
22:32:46 * I440r snorts some more
22:32:55 <kazuya> no i mean seriously, i never linked forth and embedded together before this
22:33:04 <futhin> Herkamire: you readGWM?
22:33:13 <kazuya> so like
22:33:16 <I440r> err thats wat forth was designed fro
22:33:18 <I440r> for
22:33:27 <futhin> kazuya: what are you reading?
22:33:30 <Herkamire> futhin: what's that stand for?
22:33:38 <futhin> Herkamire: gunwitch's method
22:33:47 <kazuya> I440r: yeah, but i didn't really grasp how it fit into 21st century stuff til you mentioned the embedded stuff
22:34:21 <kazuya> so like, you guys are saying confidence is a big thing
22:34:40 <I440r> kazuya, not many companies use forth
22:34:41 <kazuya> does that mean, you should like, go up to a girl and just be like "ok. you and i will mate. immediately. i demand it"
22:34:47 <I440r> even embedded jobs
22:34:49 <futhin> man i need somone to explain Why OOP?
22:34:50 <I440r> most use c
22:34:57 <kazuya> I440r: yeah, but forth helps you think small and efficient, as you said ;-)
22:35:03 <I440r> futhin ill tell you why
22:35:12 <futhin> kazuya: nah, that'll just activate her slut defense 
22:35:20 <kazuya> link to Why oop?...
22:35:21 <futhin> er
22:35:24 <futhin> anti-slut defense
22:35:29 <I440r> some career academic wrote some bullshit paper on it and the industry went "ooohhhhh someone wrote a paper on it.. it must be good!!!!"
22:35:36 <kazuya> futhin: so how *do* you approach a girl successfully?
22:35:36 <futhin> she doesn't want to appear to be a slut to the world at large
22:35:42 <kazuya> heh
22:35:45 <kazuya> "career academic"
22:36:00 <kazuya> i love practical programmers who slam professor types all the time
22:36:17 <Herkamire> futhin: yeah, I think so. mostly the eye contact stuff I got from that site.
22:36:30 <Herkamire> futhin: I've read a bunch of NLP and learned about mirroring.
22:36:36 <Herkamire> and everybody knows about confidence
22:36:38 <kazuya> has this fastseduction stuff actually worked for any of you?
22:37:00 <futhin> this channel is logged
22:37:01 <I440r> fastseduction ?
22:37:17 <kazuya> fastseduction.com
22:37:30 <kazuya> futhin: so, it's not like names are being mentioned
22:37:35 <futhin> kazuya: change topic, keep it to pms
22:37:39 <futhin> PMS
22:37:41 <kazuya> ok...
22:37:45 <futhin> PMs
22:37:47 <futhin> lol
22:38:07 <kazuya> i know it's off topic, but...
22:38:14 <futhin> its offtopic to the channel anyways
22:38:23 <I440r> kazuya, were not anally retentive about being ON topic in here lol
22:38:41 <I440r> some people even talk JAVA in here!
22:38:45 * I440r thwaps slava
22:38:46 <I440r> lol
22:38:58 <futhin> i am a bit anal retentive about it, except i tend to go offtopic myself
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23:54:22 <futhin> i440r,are you kazuya
23:54:49 <kazuya> i was joking
23:54:59 <futhin> heh
23:55:05 <futhin> whats your nick! :)
23:55:15 <futhin> have you been on #forth with another nick?
23:55:19 <futhin> you seem to know me?
23:55:24 <kazuya> uh no
23:55:35 <kazuya> a noob can easily tell you are a forth geek,no?
23:55:41 <kazuya> you are an op in a channel called #forth...
23:55:42 <futhin> heh
23:55:47 <futhin> i guess :P
23:56:03 <futhin> i'm an op on the other chan too :P
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