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09:12:20 <Herkamire> tathi: did you see this? (the one good entry in the latest irtc animation round) http://www.irtc.org/ftp/pub/anims/2004-07-15/dlights.mpg
09:13:31 <tathi> Herkamire: nope.  Thanks for reminding me though :)
09:17:30 <tathi> hrmph...why is everyone else's monitor so much brighter than mine?
09:18:59 <tathi> that's pretty simplistic -- kind of neat though.
09:40:18 <I440r> hi tathi
09:48:01 <I440r> was 1970 a leap year ?
09:48:15 <I440r> if so i know my date/time bug
09:59:41 <tathi> should have been...
10:00:21 <tathi> I think.  divisible by 4 is a leap year, except divisible by 100 isn't, except divisible by 400 is.
10:01:19 <I440r> no
10:01:25 <I440r> 1972 is a leap year
10:01:33 <I440r> i fixed the bug that makes isforth display the date wrong
10:02:00 <tathi> oh right.
10:02:05 <tathi> duh.
10:02:10 <I440r> NOW i have to investigate parsing in timezone info and NOT use the gettimeofday tz structure that freebsd ignores
10:02:25 <I440r> you can still get your timezone info from gettimeofday in linux but not in freebsd
10:02:33 <I440r> and its very bad that i do it that way anyway
10:03:08 <I440r> once i got this coded ill port all the changes to the x86 linux isforth and then im waiting on YOU to catch up lol
10:03:53 <qFox> at least we wont live to have to bother with the 400 year rule (or the 100 for that matter) anymore :p
10:04:14 <I440r> u want the fix for date/time ?
10:04:26 <I440r> what are they ?
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12:00:11 <I440r> whats the conventional word name to do for a cell what count does for a byte ?
12:00:27 <I440r> ill shoot anyone who calls it cellcount :P
12:00:33 <I440r> or coutcelll
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12:04:51 <kc5tja> brb -- food
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12:16:05 <Sonarman> I440r: @+
12:16:08 <Sonarman> :-)
12:16:47 <I440r> sonarman thats a bad name
12:17:04 <I440r> it looks like a word to fetch contents of address at top of stack and add it to second item of stack
12:17:19 <tathi> hah, see, I'm not the only one who calls it that :)
12:17:25 <I440r> lol
12:17:28 <tathi> actually, it's a colorforth thing
12:17:30 <tathi> I think.
12:17:32 <I440r> i think forth inc calls it that too
12:17:41 <tathi> or machineforth maybe.
12:18:20 <Sonarman> i like that name :)
12:23:35 <slava> hi
12:24:43 <qFox> ccount
12:24:45 <qFox> :\
12:24:54 <Sonarman> count-the-cells
12:24:55 <I440r> slava i fixed the date bug
12:25:04 <qFox> count-the-cell-width-string
12:25:16 <Sonarman> count-for-really-big-strings
12:25:35 <qFox> damn right
12:25:37 <qFox> :p
12:25:53 <qFox> maybe call it wait :p
12:32:15 <kc5tja> back
12:36:36 <I440r> slava was it you that asked me about pluck the other day ?
12:36:46 <I440r> pluck DOES push a copy of the third item
12:36:54 <I440r> pick pushes a copy of the Nth item
12:37:06 <I440r> : dup 1 pick ;
12:37:10 <I440r> : over 2 pick ;
12:37:17 <I440r> : pluck 3 pick ;
12:37:24 <I440r> or is dup 0 pick ?
12:37:28 <I440r> lol
12:37:30 <Sonarman> 0 pick in ANS
12:37:45 <I440r> pluck and pick are to be avoided. specially pick
12:37:52 <I440r> expect usese pluck tho
12:39:20 <Sonarman> what's expect?
12:39:44 <I440r> : query tib 80 expect ;
12:40:09 <I440r> actually thats a truncated definition for query but you get the picture
12:41:04 <I440r> : query tib 80- expect span @ #tib ! >in off ; to be exact
12:41:10 <I440r> err almost exact lol
12:44:06 <kc5tja> : dup 0 pick ;
12:45:39 <kc5tja> I use accept in FTS/Forth.
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12:50:39 <AlonzoTG> om
12:51:19 <AlonzoTG> http://users.erols.com/alangrimes/UCE/sphere.txt
12:51:54 <slava> om
12:51:57 * slava hits AlonzoTG with an iron butterfly
12:52:00 <slava> om
12:52:30 <AlonzoTG> slava, shutup, you don't know how to code
12:52:35 <slava> om
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12:52:49 <slava> wow
12:52:52 <slava> i stopped him from flooding
12:53:16 <qFox> uh... 
12:53:28 <slava> qFox, he comes in #lisp, #forth, #squeak and #slate and pastse 100 lines of that link
12:53:30 <slava> qFox, like every day
12:53:40 <qFox> oh
12:53:45 <slava> qFox, and if somebody complains he does /me hits <foo> with an iron butterfly
12:53:49 <qFox> hvent seen him done that in here before
12:53:55 <slava> he was here yesterday
12:54:02 <qFox> wel phun
12:54:03 <qFox> :p
12:54:13 <kc5tja> What I want to know is who the hell turned off the kickban I had for him.
12:54:24 <slava> kc5tja, they expire after a while
12:54:25 <qFox> turn it on turn it on!
12:54:27 <qFox> :p
12:54:33 <qFox> just at tmpban
12:54:46 <kc5tja> qFox: I need him to be here to do it -- otherwise, it tells me "no such nick or channel."
12:54:55 <qFox> evilish
12:55:11 <qFox> does the nick need to be registered for that?
12:55:16 <kc5tja> No
12:55:23 <qFox> is that his standard nick?
12:55:27 <kc5tja> But he needs to be present, and in this channel, for the KB to take affect.
12:55:31 --- nick: qFox -> AlonzoTG
12:55:34 <AlonzoTG> well, hello
12:55:35 <slava> lol
12:55:36 <kc5tja> usually, yes.
12:55:39 <slava> AlonzoTG, wait you have to say 'om'
12:55:53 <AlonzoTG> omg, like, i got 3 hours from idlerpg for this >:(
12:56:06 <AlonzoTG> well, big huge om to you slava
12:56:28 <AlonzoTG> just make sure he kb's on nick
12:56:30 <AlonzoTG> not on hostname ;)
12:56:34 <AlonzoTG> or at least not mine
12:56:38 <AlonzoTG> by default...
12:56:38 <AlonzoTG> etc.
12:57:02 <slava> AlonzoTG, you should always just use that nick from now on
12:57:08 <AlonzoTG> heck no.
12:57:14 <AlonzoTG> if you like it so much, you can use it
12:57:16 <slava> AlonzoTG, join #lisp right now i dare you
12:57:18 <AlonzoTG> i feel.... scuk in this
12:57:20 <slava> and say om
12:57:59 <AlonzoTG> kc5tja> how's it coming? i feel nekkit :p
12:58:19 <slava> say some scitzo shit
12:58:37 <AlonzoTG> i dont know any
12:58:44 <AlonzoTG> i'm not scizo, we're cured!
12:59:11 <kc5tja> I think the next time AlonzoTG joins, we should all (yes, literally, ALL) just /msg the FUCK out of him, with, "Drop that assembly language called Sphere!  Program in QUBE TODAY!", over and over and ove again.
12:59:33 <kc5tja> Maybe he'll get the fucking point.
13:00:01 <kc5tja> Just imagine how many pop-up windows that would create on his mIRC.  :D
13:00:14 <AlonzoTG> if he is in fact using mirc...
13:00:30 <kc5tja> Last I recalled having rational discourse with him, he was.
13:00:34 <AlonzoTG> set us up the bomb allready kc5tja
13:00:35 <AlonzoTG> :p
13:00:35 <kc5tja> He could be using something else now, of ocurse.
13:00:44 <slava> wtf is Qube?
13:00:57 <kc5tja> slava: Some vaporware competitor to the vaporware Sphere, of course.
13:01:19 <Robert> Heh.
13:01:46 <kc5tja> He's been promoting that retarded language ever since I was still living back in NY state -- at least eight years ago now.
13:01:49 <kc5tja> At the very least.
13:01:57 <AlonzoTG> omg? :)
13:02:03 <AlonzoTG> i did no such thing!
13:02:20 <kc5tja> Don't make me coordinate a distributed denial of service attach against you.
13:02:26 <AlonzoTG> eeeeeeep
13:02:33 --- nick: AlonzoTG -> qFox
13:02:35 <qFox> no no no its me!
13:02:37 <qFox> :p
13:02:39 <qFox> look
13:02:40 <qFox> really
13:02:41 <qFox> i authed
13:02:42 <qFox> :D
13:02:43 <kc5tja> I know it's you.  :)
13:02:54 <kc5tja> I watched you /nick to AlonzoTG's nick.
13:03:04 <kc5tja> That's why I made no attempt to /KB you.  :)
13:03:09 <qFox> dude
13:03:13 <qFox> that was the whole point?
13:03:23 <qFox> .... you did not get that?
13:03:36 <qFox> i changed nicks so the nick was in this channel and you could set up the bom... kb
13:03:38 <kc5tja> You wanted me to kickban you?
13:03:46 <qFox> well, not that
13:03:52 <kc5tja> No, I didn't get that.  :)
13:03:53 <qFox> i wanted you to be able to setup a kb for that nickname
13:03:58 <qFox> then unban me with a different nick
13:03:59 <qFox> :p
13:04:03 <I440r> smruf attack!!! hgeg
13:04:16 <qFox> [21:55:32] * Your nick is now AlonzoTG
13:04:16 <qFox> -
13:04:16 <qFox> [21:55:33] -NickServ- This nickname is owned by someone else
13:04:18 <qFox> o_0
13:04:25 <qFox> no ghost on it though :D
13:04:46 <qFox> well whatever. now somebody else has to play punchbag
13:04:57 <qFox> and i vote.... SLAVA to be a voluntary for that task!
13:05:01 <I440r> who is alonzotg ?
13:05:04 <qFox> volunteer
13:05:18 <qFox> appearantly somebody who's very very very evil ;)
13:05:20 * qFox afk
13:05:22 <slava> ffs just do /ban AlonzoTG*!*@*
13:05:40 <qFox> also. somebody owes me a 4 hour penalty on idlerpg >:)
13:06:25 --- mode: kc5tja set +b AlonzoTG*!*@*
13:06:30 <kc5tja> Ban set.
13:06:32 <kc5tja> Is it persistent?
13:06:38 <slava> no idea
13:06:58 <I440r> should be
13:07:17 <qFox> i dont know whether the Q of this net unsets bans
13:07:17 <Robert> Heh.
13:07:17 <I440r> what did he do ?
13:07:19 <qFox> they can get lost in a split though
13:07:20 <qFox> can, not will
13:07:28 <qFox> right i was gone
13:09:32 <kc5tja> I440r: Read the logs.
13:09:44 <I440r> k
13:09:50 <kc5tja> But it's not just what he did recently.  It's what he HAS been doing over the last *8* *years* I've been on IRC.
13:10:32 <slava> he spent the last 5 years trying to get gcc to work
13:11:08 <I440r> kc you'v known him 8 years ?
13:11:12 <kc5tja> Yep
13:11:18 <kc5tja> Hey, I gotta run some errands.
13:11:25 <kc5tja> Be back in about an hour or so, I hope.
13:18:48 <slava> I440r, i 0wn j00
13:19:47 <I440r> how so ??? :)
13:19:52 <I440r> lol
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15:03:10 <Sonarman> hi TheBlueWizard
15:04:12 <TheBlueWizard> Sonarman hiya
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16:52:03 <Sonarman> shut up, everybody!
16:52:50 <TheBlueWizard> huh???
16:54:26 <Sonarman> there're just too many conversations going on at once!
16:54:28 <Sonarman> ;-)
16:55:29 <TheBlueWizard> here?  or was that an aftereffect of a screaming match over unit testing?
16:56:21 <Sonarman> haha. I440r's voice continues to echo off the walls
16:57:43 <TheBlueWizard> yeah :)
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17:06:08 --- nick: slava_ -> slava
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17:06:28 <slava> <-- I440r has quit (Excess Flood)
17:06:33 <slava> lol who were you flooding
17:10:15 <Sonarman> lol
17:11:16 <slava> <I440r> I iz 31337
17:11:16 <slava> <I440r> I iz 31337
17:11:16 <slava> <I440r> I iz 31337
17:11:16 <slava> <I440r> I iz 31337
17:11:16 <slava> <I440r> I iz 31337
17:12:03 <Sonarman> maybe he was posting one of his long definitions :P
17:12:19 <slava> or typing REAL FAST in a unit testing flamefest :)
17:12:57 <TheBlueWizard> lol
17:13:09 <FlamingRain> lol
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17:34:53 <I440r> slava ? lol
17:36:19 <slava> I440r, ?
17:36:37 <slava> i'm working on compiling conditoinals
17:37:10 <TheBlueWizard> gotta go...bye all
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17:49:19 <semtex> 'morning
17:49:23 <I440r> bongo!
17:49:31 <semtex> that's right
17:50:09 <semtex> i see a few new faces here
17:50:14 <slava> hi
17:50:20 <semtex> hi
17:51:09 <I440r> whats bongo doing these days 
17:51:12 <semtex> any forthers here ?
17:51:21 <I440r> not many hehe
17:51:36 <semtex> not doing so much right now
17:52:19 <semtex> bit of this and that
17:52:20 <slava> forthers? none here :)
17:52:48 <semtex> all gone joy ?
17:52:49 <slava> dammit before compiling branches i have to get the literal table thing done for gc
17:53:15 <FlamingRain> hello semtex
17:53:25 <semtex> hi rainingflame
17:53:41 * FlamingRain needs to get a new nick
17:53:46 <FlamingRain> FlamingRain sucks
17:54:09 <FlamingRain> hrmm, something short and obscure
17:54:17 --- nick: semtex -> zoly
17:54:39 <slava> zoly, interesting that you mention joy
17:54:46 <slava> zoly, i'm developing a very joy-like language
17:54:47 <zoly> less nsa prone
17:54:55 <zoly> cool
17:55:23 <FlamingRain> saon, perfect, saon: short and obscure nick
17:56:06 <zoly> better then the tripleobfuscatedobscurizer
17:56:14 --- nick: FlamingRain -> saon
17:56:58 <saon> there
17:57:15 <zoly> reminds me on "soap"
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18:16:19 <slava> I440r, ping
18:16:29 * kc5tja_ rather liked FlamingRain... :/
18:16:38 <slava> oh kc5tja_
18:16:56 <slava> kc5tja_, wait n/m
18:17:06 <I440r> slava whussup
18:17:15 <slava> nah i had a quesiton but i asnwered it myself
18:17:31 <I440r> those are the best questions :)
18:17:32 <I440r> hehe
18:18:05 <slava> oh yeah can i do an indirect load from an immedaite
18:18:15 <slava> like MOV [$deadbeef] eax
18:18:38 <I440r> mov eax, [fromhere]
18:18:54 <slava> ok so it exists :)
18:18:55 <I440r> but that doesnt load eax with the address pointed to by fromhere
18:19:03 <slava> oh
18:19:04 <I440r> but loads eax with the data AT fromhere
18:19:15 <I440r> do two movs
18:19:18 <slava> ok
18:19:19 <zoly> lea
18:19:20 <I440r> mov eax. [from]
18:19:24 <I440r> mov eax, [eax]
18:19:28 <slava> or should i use lea?
18:19:34 <zoly> ah, no
18:19:34 <I440r> no
18:19:39 <slava> ok
18:22:04 <slava> ok some naming advice
18:22:12 <slava> what to call the top of the table of literals referened by compiled code
18:22:13 <kc5tja_> slava: I'm sorry, but you really do need to use a comma to distinguish the source from the destination.
18:23:22 <kc5tja_> BCPL calls such a thing the "global vector."
18:23:37 <kc5tja_> (since it is just a big vector [array] of globals used throughout a program)
18:24:58 --- nick: kc5tja_ -> kc5tja
18:25:04 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja
18:39:33 <I440r> yes
18:39:39 <I440r> mov eax, [ebx]
18:39:49 <I440r> thats close to intel syntax
18:42:26 <slava> what's a good register to use for temporary stuff other than eax
18:42:36 <slava> ebx or ecx?
18:44:19 <kc5tja> Any register except ESP, really.
18:44:48 <kc5tja> Though certain operations favor certain registers (e.g., multiplication favors ECX).
18:46:52 <Sonarman> favoring meaning the opcode takes up less space?
18:47:06 <Sonarman> instruction
18:47:19 <Sonarman> or that you don't have to exchange registers and stuff?
18:47:21 <slava> mov eax <- $address
18:47:23 <kc5tja> Usually, yes.
18:47:26 <slava> mov eax <- [eax]
18:47:49 <kc5tja> Working math stuffs with EAX as the destination register is usually one byte shorter.  MUL instructions with ECX is usually one to two bytes shorter, etc.
18:47:49 <slava> hmm:)
18:53:42 <slava> is 5 opcodes too much to push a literal that's indirectly loaded from a table?
18:55:11 <Sonarman> why are you loading from a table anyway?
18:55:21 <slava> Sonarman, anything that's not an integer is a pointer...
18:55:24 <slava> Sonarman, and the gc can move objects around
18:55:29 <slava> Sonarman, so i can't just stash raw objects in compiled code
18:56:15 <I440r> multiplication favors ecx ?
18:56:26 <slava> no it just disfavors YOU :)
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19:01:32 <slava> ok lol this was supposed to sya hello world:
19:01:32 <slava>   ( 25 ) [ "hello world" ] compile-quot call-xt .s
19:01:32 <slava> { 85362221 }
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19:18:03 <thin> hi herkamire
19:18:15 <thin> hi tgunr, sonarman
19:18:23 <slava> hi thin
19:18:27 <thin> hi slava
19:19:06 <slava> i'm curious, i'm looking at some disassembly, what's the difference between the opcodes in these two lines:
19:19:08 <slava>    0:   a1 00 00 00 00          mov    0x0,%eax
19:19:08 <slava>    5:   b8 00 00 00 00          mov    $0x0,%eax
19:19:30 <slava> does the second load the value at address 0?
19:19:33 <slava> or..?
19:21:27 <thin> perhaps
19:21:31 <thin> unless $ means literal
19:21:33 <thin> :P
19:23:02 <slava> oh i think a1 is loading from a memory location into eax only
19:23:17 <slava> b8 is loading an immediate literal into eax (or another register if you add its # to b8).
19:23:22 <slava> thin, i'm writing a compiler
19:24:51 <Sonarman> hith
19:24:52 <Sonarman> hi thin 
19:26:00 <Sonarman> 00000000  A100000000        mov eax,[0x0]
19:26:44 <Sonarman> crazy gas
19:27:01 <slava> you have crazy gas?
19:27:02 <slava> eat less beans
19:27:09 <Sonarman> it's something you inhale
19:27:13 <Sonarman> hee hee haw haw haheheo
19:33:34 --- join: saon (~Ecoder@c-24-129-95-254.se.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth
19:40:00 --- quit: zoly ("CARRIER LOST")
19:50:22 --- quit: saon ("making a new fluxbox theme")
19:50:40 --- join: arke (arke@adsl-69-209-54-62.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net) joined #forth
19:50:44 <arke> hi
19:50:50 <arke> im back
19:50:52 <arke> ^_^
20:00:55 <Sonarman> hey baby
20:02:09 * arke is teh codz0r
20:02:45 <arke> remember my frapiar project?
20:02:50 <arke> well, i kinda got fed up with F2
20:02:55 <arke> so i decided to rewrite from scratch
20:03:09 <arke> within 2 hours, I got a pretty interesting ccontext backend going
20:03:21 <arke> argh, midsato is teh sl0w
20:05:39 <Sonarman> is ccontext that layer engine?
20:09:16 <arke> im going to plug in Ficl :)
20:09:54 <Sonarman> what about factor? :)
20:10:17 --- join: wossname (~wossname@rn-v1w5a06.uwaterloo.ca) joined #forth
20:10:18 <arke> naah, facotr is nice, but not quite there yet ^_^
20:10:31 <arke> i dont even know if i can just kinda plug-and-play like with ficl
20:10:45 <Sonarman> yeah
20:10:50 <Sonarman> so, what's ccontext?
20:12:29 <arke> basically, it deals with contexts
20:12:37 <arke> a context is a set of windows, a set of event callbacks, etc.
20:12:55 <arke> I want those scriptyed and paged
20:13:03 <arke> the main menu would be a context
20:13:30 <arke> the game play is a context
20:13:36 <arke> launching the forth cobsole is a context
20:13:43 <Sonarman> oh, yeah
20:13:44 <arke> and it just kinda returns from ccontexts as needed
20:13:55 <arke> lets say you land on a planet
20:14:01 <arke> it creates a new context
20:14:02 <Sonarman> i was thinking of a similar concept for a little keypress-handling library i wrote
20:14:09 <arke> and then that context is run
20:14:15 <arke> :)
20:15:21 <Sonarman> mine would just switch the table of callbacks
20:15:35 <arke> kinda like that
20:15:44 <arke> except that its callbacks _and windows etc.
20:15:53 <arke> and it pages to disk
20:16:00 <slava> arke!
20:16:28 <arke> that means, the last two used contexts are in memory, but the rest is paged to a file on disk
20:16:31 <arke> hi slava :)
20:16:38 <slava> arke, what is frapiar?
20:16:41 <arke> slava: how far is factor?
20:16:55 <slava> depends on how you define 'far'
20:16:59 <arke> slava: err, game i started a while ago. space adventure game. 
20:17:03 <slava> i just started working on the x86 compiler yesterday
20:17:20 <arke> slava: well, can i plug-and-play with my C++ code like I can with ficl?
20:17:28 <slava> no :(
20:17:36 <slava> i haven't got around to this yet
20:18:12 <arke> ok, sorryy
20:18:16 <arke> woulda used factor otherwise
20:18:16 <arke> :)
20:18:22 <slava> heh
20:20:03 <slava> how's F2?
20:24:18 <arke> bugs
20:24:19 <arke> bugs
20:24:19 <arke> bugs
20:24:19 <arke> bugs
20:24:19 <arke> bugs
20:24:19 <arke> bugs
20:24:37 <slava> :( surely they can be fixed :)
20:25:10 <thin> arke, pm
20:25:52 --- quit: Sonarman (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
20:28:19 <arke> :)
20:28:29 <kc5tja> back for the moment.
20:30:37 <thin> hey arke?
20:30:42 <slava> i never thought asm was this fun :)
20:34:44 <I440r> lol
20:34:50 <I440r> asm is way more fun that c/c++/java
20:34:58 <I440r> only forth is as much fun as asm
20:35:01 <slava> forth and factor rule them all :)
20:35:34 <arke> hi kc5tja 
20:36:33 <kc5tja> re 
20:36:36 <thin> someone ask arke if he's got me on ignore?
20:37:15 --- nick: thin -> futhin
20:37:18 <futhin> yo arke?
20:37:46 <arke> futhin: hi
20:39:13 <arke> hey futhin, sorry, thin was still ignored from a few weeks ago
20:39:14 <futhin> arke, you got thin on ignore?
20:39:18 <futhin> lol :)
20:39:25 <kc5tja> brb
20:39:48 <arke> futhin: how much would you offer kc5tja?
20:39:53 <arke> futhin: as in, moneywise?
20:41:52 <futhin> well it would depend on how much money i had, but bare minimum would be $2000 a month or whatever kc5tja needs to live..  keep in mind i'd be paying him to do his projects with a few added stories from me
20:42:08 <futhin> its all hypothetical until i get rich ;)
20:42:25 <arke> ;)
20:42:49 <futhin> hopefully soon :D
20:44:10 <futhin> in the meantime i probably should do some forth coding
20:44:10 <futhin> heh
20:44:33 <futhin> last night ree told me about how he wants to do C
20:46:32 <futhin> anyways i started thinking about why is C successful and forth isn't
20:46:39 <futhin> i'm wondering if anyone has any ideas
20:46:44 <futhin> especially on changing that
20:48:16 <kc5tja> C is successful for several reasons: it's good enough as a language, it gets the job done well in practice, and it's high enough level a language that you can perform some neat optimizations with it to exploit instruction-level parallelism, whereas with Forth, you really can't unless you get into some highly exotic techniques.
20:48:42 <slava> C is fine
20:49:27 <arke> C becmae popuilar because UNIX became popular
20:49:59 <kc5tja> Bingo.
20:50:04 <kc5tja> And unix became popular because of academia.
20:50:12 <kc5tja> And because, again, it was "good enough."
20:50:18 <wossname> where is lisp?! :(
20:50:19 <arke> :)
20:50:30 <futhin> yeah where is lisp
20:50:36 <futhin> squeek killed lisp ;)
20:50:51 <wossname> lisp is only as dead as forth >:l
20:51:07 <futhin> the undead!
20:51:12 <slava> futhin, squeek?
20:51:20 <futhin> squeak?
20:51:51 <slava> how did squeak kill lisp?
20:51:53 <slava> howa re they related even
20:53:36 <futhin> oops
20:53:42 <futhin> squeak is smalltalk isn't it?
20:53:56 <arke> :D
20:54:16 <arke> my friend wooperbang is joining us
20:54:26 <futhin> the extreme programming book i read seems to really advocate smalltalk
20:54:33 <arke> he wants to learn Forth because hes he is frustrated with C
20:54:35 <futhin> so i might get a book and check it out
20:54:39 <futhin> arke: cool
20:54:48 <futhin> akre, what aspects frustrate him?
20:54:52 <wossname> teach him lisp >:(
20:54:54 <arke> debugging
20:54:58 <arke> :P
20:55:11 --- join: wooperbang (apache@11.198.216.81.dre.siw.siwnet.net) joined #forth
20:55:13 <arke> wossname: say that not in #forth, for thou shalt be, err, punished?
20:55:14 <arke> with a trout :)
20:55:37 <futhin> hi wooperbang
20:55:56 <arke> woop	hi there :)
20:55:56 <arke> woop	i'm chris
20:56:03 <futhin> arke, this should be the lisp and smalltalk and forth channel ;)
20:56:11 <wossname> :p
20:56:26 <arke> everybody, wooperbang is my friend David. He wants to learn forth, and hes frustrated with C :)
20:56:58 <slava> don't use C for applications where its not appropriate
20:57:11 <futhin> wooperbang: run! run for your life! (unless you value simplicity)
20:57:33 --- quit: arke ("be back in 30 seconds ... stay, wooperbang")
20:57:36 <slava> wooperbang, what don't you like about C?
20:57:56 --- join: arke (~Chris@wbar8.lax1-4-11-100-111.dsl-verizon.net) joined #forth
20:58:13 <arke> hiya, im back
20:58:29 <wooperbang> the debuging
20:58:37 <slava> gdb?
20:58:45 <wooperbang> and the error messages
20:58:57 <futhin> wooperbang: what were you coding in C
20:59:16 <arke> wooperbang, don't answer futhin :P
20:59:19 <slava> wooperbang, forth usually says '?'
20:59:22 <slava> and that's it ;)
20:59:35 <arke> slava, except that for forth, there is only one error
20:59:37 <arke> :)
21:00:22 <wooperbang> well i am trying to create a count days program. It is a simple program that i am creating to practice my C skills.
21:00:52 <slava> wooperbang, maybe you want a high level language like smalltalk, lisp, python, perl or java
21:01:37 <arke> you're recommending perl? :)
21:01:38 <futhin> slava, and forth isn't high level? :P
21:01:44 <slava> arke, no
21:01:48 <slava> arke, just listing high level languages
21:01:55 <slava> futhin, well, all those languages have garbage collection and type safety
21:01:58 <arke> slava, good boy :)
21:02:03 <slava> arke, :)
21:02:08 <wooperbang> maybe. BUt what about Forth. I heard it easy to program with
21:02:17 <slava> wooperbang, as easy as C or asm
21:02:25 <slava> wooperbang, you have to know what's going on 'under the hood' so to speak
21:02:57 <arke> forth is _very_ easy to program with. the only thing is getting used to a different style of programming. once you have that, then you will write great forth programs and your programs in other languages will become better, too
21:03:45 <arke> well, you don't really. but it helps.
21:03:49 <slava> no easier or harder than C
21:03:57 <slava> you still have to think about your memory management, deallocation contracts etc
21:04:10 <arke> slava, i actually think it is easier as i am not constrained by syntax :)
21:04:16 <slava> heh
21:04:25 <wooperbang> but is Forth easier to debug and make good working code than C.
21:04:36 <arke> slava, well, its still easier as usually you're not gonna be worrying too much about it
21:04:55 <slava> wooperbang, if you understand the forth phiolosphy, maybe...
21:05:02 <futhin> the less you know about C or pascal or other imperative language paradigms, the easier it will be to code in forth
21:05:11 <slava> forth is imperative
21:05:13 <arke> : allocate allocate drop dup _alloced ll-add ;
21:05:23 <slava> that's unreadable ;)
21:05:23 <futhin> slava, nope
21:05:25 <arke> and then on exit, call a word freeing everything in _alloced
21:05:26 <arke> :)
21:05:33 <slava> futhin, why not?
21:05:34 <wooperbang> tell me a little bit about the Forth philosophy
21:05:51 <slava> futhin, the execution model is sequential -- i can reassign existing variable bindings.
21:05:53 <slava> so its imperative
21:06:55 <arke> slava, more readable than the equivalent C code ;)
21:07:03 <arke> slava, and, you can't really do it with C like that :P
21:07:10 <slava> arke, do what?
21:07:10 <arke> (you can, but ... well ... you can't :))
21:07:27 <arke> slava, redefine a symbol in terms of its previous value
21:07:28 <slava> arke, factor is written in C and everything is garbage collected, so i can allocate all the junk i want without worrying :)
21:07:33 <slava> arke, int x = 4; x = 6;
21:07:55 <futhin> slava: the categories are imperative, functional, concatenative, etc
21:08:06 <futhin> forth falls into the concatenative or functional category
21:08:09 <slava> i'm not sure concatenative is a separate category
21:08:13 <slava> forth is certainly not functional
21:08:17 <arke> slava, thats not what i meant
21:08:19 <arke> slava, :)
21:08:23 <slava> there's no closures or lambdas or function application
21:08:29 <arke> wooperbang, anyway, about the forth philosopht
21:08:39 <futhin> just because forth has _some_ imperative properties doesn't mean its imperative
21:08:52 <futhin> wooperbang:  might want to read www.ultratechnology.com
21:08:54 <arke> wooperbang, write well-factored code. create small modules, build from the ground up. test as you go.
21:09:01 <futhin> good forth philosophy articles there
21:09:11 <slava> arke, that's good programming practice
21:09:15 <slava> arke, its not specific to forth
21:09:21 <slava> arke, i do that even when coding java :)
21:09:45 <arke> wooperbang, whereas C is basically group related pieces of code. keep call overhead to a minimum, as its huge in C
21:10:11 <arke> wooperbang, in C, you write something, test and debug it, and then move on.
21:10:18 <futhin> forth is interactive
21:10:24 <futhin> unless you're some lamer that codes in an editor ;)
21:10:44 <arke> futhin, :)
21:10:53 <slava> futhin, and how do you code?
21:10:55 <futhin> i'd make an attempt to explain forth philosophy
21:10:58 <I440r> he doesnt :LP
21:11:00 <I440r> :P
21:11:01 <futhin> but right now my brain is non functional
21:11:04 <slava> futhin, you type EVERYTHING in the REPL each time you restart forth?
21:11:27 <slava> i code in an editor, and with one keystroke reload the current file in the interpreter ;)
21:11:28 <arke> slava, he meant that he tests on the line, then enters in the editor
21:11:35 <slava> i write tests in a file too
21:11:48 <slava> so i can keep the test files and have a test suite.
21:11:54 <Herkamire> hi futhin :)
21:12:04 <futhin> hey herkamire :)
21:12:30 <arke> hi Herkamire:)
21:12:31 <Herkamire> futhin: just saw you said hi a couple hours ago :)
21:12:35 <Herkamire> hi arke
21:17:42 <slava> arke, ppping
21:17:44 <slava> 	movl	ds, %edx
21:17:44 <slava> 	leal	-4(%edx), %eax
21:17:44 <slava> 	movl	%eax, ds
21:17:52 <slava> does this effectively decrement ds  by 4?
21:18:24 <arke> slava, yes
21:18:52 <arke> although i don't know why you would ever do that 
21:18:56 <futhin> anyone think we need another chuck moore visit?
21:19:02 <slava> arke, its gcc output :)
21:19:05 <arke> futhin, i do :)
21:19:07 <slava> arke, i'm trying to figure out an opcode sequence
21:19:11 <slava> arke, maybe you can give me a hint?
21:19:19 <arke> slava, i neeed more context.
21:19:31 <arke> slava, don't hesitate to /msg me in the future, btw :)
21:19:33 <slava> arke, 'ds' is a symbolic constant holding a pointer to a pointer to the datastack top (i can't use a register)
21:19:44 <slava> arke, i need to do this:
21:19:44 <arke> oh
21:19:48 <arke> heheh
21:19:48 <slava> decrement ds by 4
21:19:54 * arke DUH!
21:20:00 <slava> move value pointed by ds to eax
21:20:03 <arke> the actual value of DS?
21:20:19 <slava> ds is the datastack top pointer
21:20:24 <slava> but its not stored in a register
21:20:26 <slava> its stored in a global
21:20:36 <slava> maybe i should give C code :)
21:20:41 <slava> *ds -= 4;
21:20:46 <slava> eax = *ds;
21:21:01 <arke> oh yeah, thats correct output
21:21:02 <arke> :)
21:21:37 <slava> what about the second line there
21:21:46 <slava> should i just do an ordinary mov
21:21:54 <slava> or is there a trick to combine both lines into some tight sequence
21:22:07 <arke> oh
21:22:09 <arke> hmm
21:22:11 * arke thinks
21:22:29 <arke> you want *ds -= 4 and then ds in %eax?
21:22:39 <slava> its like a stack pop :)
21:22:44 <arke> because after that code, its already in %eax :)
21:22:47 <slava> oh!
21:22:52 <slava> can you explain how?
21:23:13 <arke> actually
21:23:16 <arke> the address to it
21:23:20 <arke> is in %eax
21:23:22 <slava> ok
21:23:25 <arke> so to get the actual value of TOS
21:23:28 <slava> and i can do mov (%eax) %eax
21:23:29 <arke> do
21:23:38 <arke> movl (%eax), %eax
21:23:40 <slava> :)
21:23:44 <slava> thanks
21:23:57 <slava> its only be secodn day doing x86 asm, bear with me:)
21:24:08 <arke> hey, you're doing great :)
21:25:18 --- quit: Herkamire ("bed")
21:25:46 --- quit: wooperbang ("leaving to help promote the superiority of WIndows over linux")
21:26:05 <arke> oh my god i am fucking killing him
21:26:25 <slava> i think we all just confused him with contradictory opinions ;)
21:26:39 <arke> indeed ;)
21:31:15 <arke> gmail invite anyone?
21:33:30 --- mode: ChanServ set +o futhin
21:33:48 <arke> OH NO HE WILL BAN ME AGAIN!
21:33:49 <arke> :P
21:33:56 <slava> /ban arke
21:34:15 <kc5tja> Welp, I'm going to see a movie.
21:34:16 <futhin> hehe :P
21:34:25 <arke> kc5tja, :)
21:34:27 <kc5tja> I'll be back tomorrow or something, or maybe later tonight.
21:34:31 <slava> kc5tja, going on a date with AlonzoTG?
21:34:38 <kc5tja>  /kb slav
21:34:38 <arke> kc5tja, i hope on the latter, want to talk to you :)
21:34:56 <kc5tja> slava: You're lucky -- you're one letter off, pal... ;D
21:34:57 <arke> whos alonzotg....?
21:35:11 <slava> arke, google for 'alan grimes'
21:35:17 <futhin> arke, just get wooperbang some of the online materials.. #forth can be too confusing unless smart people like kc5tja or mrreach are willing to explain forth to him
21:35:33 <kc5tja> Anyway, peace out.
21:35:42 <slava> futhin, so in other words, #forth is a zoo and you need guides at first if you're new? :)
21:36:26 <arke> slava, nice :)
21:36:34 <arke> hmm
21:36:39 <futhin> well slava, it seems that you were doing the most confusing
21:37:01 <arke> that would explain why 1.5 years ago i was only briefly a regular and then became a regular regular only a year ago
21:37:03 <arke> ...
21:37:04 <arke> jeezus
21:37:25 <arke> actually, that was 2 and 1.5
21:37:26 <arke> :/
21:37:30 <futhin> heh
21:37:30 <arke> i've been here for 1.5 year
21:37:32 <futhin> you came and then left?
21:37:36 <arke> yes
21:37:36 <futhin> and then came back?
21:37:38 <futhin> cool
21:37:39 <arke> yes
21:37:41 <arke> yes
21:37:41 <arke> :)
21:37:56 <futhin> were you into forth when you first came
21:37:58 <futhin> or just curious about it
21:38:13 <wossname> http://129.97.235.26/index.html
21:38:15 <wossname> am i accessable
21:38:48 <futhin> congratulations wossname, its a stillborn!
21:39:00 <futhin> was gonna say it was a girl if it was successful
21:39:02 <futhin> but its not
21:39:59 <slava> gas is <op> <src>,<dest>?
21:40:06 <arke> futhin, first, i came because Robert got me into it
21:40:07 <arke> slava, yes
21:40:11 <arke> futhin, i didn't get it
21:40:11 <slava> :)
21:40:13 <arke> futhin, i left
21:40:19 <arke> futhin, i came back, and i got it
21:40:22 <futhin> yay
21:40:23 <arke> futhin, been here ever since 
21:40:25 <arke> futhin, :)
21:40:37 * futhin pats Robert's head, "good boy"
21:42:14 <futhin> arke, got a website?
21:42:24 <arke> futhin, no
21:42:32 <arke> futhin, never got a reply from the bespin d00d
21:43:17 <futhin> hmm
21:43:30 <futhin> idle on #bespin
21:43:36 <futhin> or add Tril to your notify
21:43:45 <futhin> talk to him about your f2 project etc
21:45:16 <wossname> arr internet fuqn internet net inter
21:50:32 <I440r> gas is evil
21:51:20 <slava> i don't usually get gas
21:51:25 <slava> but then i don't eat beans
21:51:31 <slava> i can still sympathize with your I440r 
21:51:49 <futhin> slava, he's talking about gnu assembler
21:51:51 <futhin> you knew that right?
21:51:53 <slava> i know ;)
21:52:02 <slava> and i do eat beans, sometimes
21:52:07 <I440r> lol yes he knew :P
21:52:09 <slava> just not enough to get gas
21:54:36 --- join: imaginator (~George@georgeps.dsl.xmission.com) joined #forth
21:54:55 <slava> hi imaginator
21:55:03 <imaginator> Hi slava 
21:56:44 --- quit: wossname (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
21:56:56 --- join: saon (Ecoder@c-24-129-95-254.se.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth
22:00:58 --- quit: saon (Client Quit)
22:02:53 <I440r> ok who was saon ?
22:02:53 --- quit: tgunr (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
22:03:33 <slava> I440r, hes a real person
22:03:36 <slava> I440r, he talked earlier today
22:03:57 <I440r> yea but why the fly by :)
22:04:19 <arke> :)
22:04:29 <futhin> yeah you should do something about the flybys!
22:04:33 <futhin> you're an op! kickban them!
22:04:34 <futhin> heh
22:05:29 <arke> heh
22:05:29 <arke> i would if i was op
22:05:30 <arke> actually
22:05:30 <arke> no i wouldnt
22:05:30 <arke> :)
22:07:59 --- join: tgunr (~davec@vsat-148-63-4-107.c001.g4.mrt.starband.net) joined #forth
22:08:21 <futhin> hi tgunr, flybying again?
22:08:30 <arke> hi
22:08:30 <arke> :)
22:09:24 --- join: wossname (~wossname@rn-v1w5a06.uwaterloo.ca) joined #forth
22:10:22 <futhin> wossname: what year are you in?
22:10:42 <wossname> 1971
22:10:53 <futhin> no, what year of university are you in
22:10:57 <wossname> very 1st
22:11:16 <futhin> you live in residence?
22:11:18 <wossname> yep
22:11:23 <futhin> good stuff :)
22:11:26 <wossname> ;l
22:11:27 <futhin> made lots of friends in residence
22:11:40 <wossname> aahh, i will try to do that perhaps
22:12:00 <futhin> dont go to university for an education, go to university for the friends, partying, and sex
22:12:23 <wossname> :o
22:13:17 <futhin> if i ever go back to university i'll definitely go back into residence and just go to university for the partying etc
22:13:25 <futhin> and take like 3 bullshit courses
22:13:33 <futhin> per semester
22:13:53 <futhin> and never have a class earlier than noon
22:19:17 <wossname> :p
22:19:17 <wossname> currently i'm in it for the degree :)
22:19:17 <wossname> that's something i'm amenable to
22:19:17 <futhin> lame! :P
22:19:17 <wossname> it has been decided; i must go on a quest for caffeine
22:19:17 <wossname> it could end at a vending machine hidden in this dorm block, or miles away in disaster
22:19:17 <futhin> all the smart guys like eistein or benjamin franklin or thomas jefferson or edison have said stuff like "if you want an education, do not go to school" or some such
22:19:17 <wossname> i didn't say i wanted an education, i said i wanted a degree ;D
22:19:17 <futhin> yeah
22:19:17 <arke> hey guys, about what time do you think i switched from rk to arke?
22:19:17 <wossname> 1968
22:19:17 <futhin> but is it really worth the effort to jump thru a bunch of arbitrary hoops to get a piece of paper?
22:19:17 <wossname> yes
22:19:17 <wossname> co-op program == $$
22:19:17 <wossname> $$ == heroin and cocaine
22:19:17 <futhin> especially since being an employee and working for someone else is lame
22:19:17 <futhin> and is harder ultimately
22:19:17 <futhin> than getting rich
22:19:17 <futhin> but requires less thinking
22:19:17 <wossname> i'll get rich, too
22:19:17 <wossname> i'm going to go into selling basic goods
22:19:52 <arke> WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH MEME!?!?!?!
22:20:01 <arke> EVERY FUCKING USERNAME IT REJECTS
22:20:42 <arke> ........
22:20:47 <arke> ksfkjbsadgkjbakujba is rejected
22:20:47 <futhin> trying out meme?
22:20:47 <arke> wtf
22:20:55 <wossname> babushka will work
22:20:55 <arke> im trying to search the forth logs
22:21:00 <arke> but i have to fucking log in
22:21:01 <wossname> try babushka10
22:21:27 <arke> doesnt work
22:21:28 <arke> what the fuck
22:22:08 <arke> nevermind
22:22:14 <arke> ill just scan the raw logs
22:22:15 <arke> piece of shit
22:22:50 <futhin> try bugmenot.com on meme
22:23:17 <futhin> ah envermind
22:23:19 <futhin> none for it
22:26:09 --- nick: futhin -> cduce
22:27:49 <Robert> Il Duce!
22:30:40 <arke> cduce, change the name.
22:31:59 <Robert> futhin has abandoned his world domination plans anyway, don't worry.
22:32:33 <cduce> its a nick for another channel
22:32:44 <cduce> and Robert, you are more right than you think
22:33:09 <Robert> You told me that some time ago, anyway. ;)
22:33:10 <cduce> i've realized control is precisely the source of most problems in the world
22:33:22 <cduce> attempting to take over the world wouldn't change that
22:33:27 <cduce> now i'm anti-control
22:33:31 <slava> ok, after all that work, i can generate some asm to pop from the datastack ;)
22:33:36 <slava> i'm off to sleep.
22:33:37 <cduce> and i plan on destroying control wherever i can ;)
22:33:39 <slava> i'll have branches working tomorrow
22:33:49 <Robert> I'm pro-control, anti-choice and anti-life.
22:33:52 <Robert> Night slava 
22:34:10 --- join: Serg_penguin (~z@212.34.52.140) joined #forth
22:34:19 <Robert> Hi Serg_penguin 
22:34:33 <cduce> robert: cool, that'd make you my mortal enemy :P
22:34:43 <Robert> Hooray!
22:34:46 * Robert dances around
22:43:42 <Serg_penguin> hi
22:44:18 <Serg_penguin> i just shot all the film by my new camera, give it to lab this evening
22:47:10 <cduce> anyone familiar with javascript
22:48:56 <arke> javascript ewwwwwwwwwwwww
22:48:57 <arke> hi Serg_penguin
22:55:52 --- quit: slava ("Leaving")
23:31:13 --- join: warpzero (~warpzero@dsl.103.mt.onewest.net) joined #forth
23:34:38 <Serg_penguin> javascript is evil ;)
23:43:42 <warpzero> haha
23:43:47 <warpzero> anyone here have an HTDV
23:43:50 <warpzero> HDTV
23:51:47 --- quit: imaginator ("sleep")
23:58:23 <Serg_penguin> TV is evil ^)
23:59:55 <warpzero> games
23:59:56 <warpzero> and movies
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/04.09.06