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00:01:32 <Serg_penguin> hi !
00:01:50 <Serg_penguin> mur: i recently watched rally in Finland - nice !
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05:49:26 <madgarden> OrngeTide, do you have Allegro installed?
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06:50:25 <madwork_> Should put a link to the #forth logs in the topic.
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06:54:00 <I440r_> do a /whois on clog :)
06:54:11 <I440r_> who is snoopy ?
06:54:12 <I440r_> a bot ?
06:58:56 <madwork_> A bot on dial-up?
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07:00:07 <mur> hah, it used to be that those who could afford used broadband and others used modem, nowdays everyone has broadband, and who can afford use modem
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08:13:44 <arke> hi
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08:25:42 <arke> hyi
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08:29:47 <arke> hi tathi
08:33:55 <tathi> hi arke 
08:34:08 * arke is in drafting class :)
08:34:29 <tathi> :)
08:35:49 <arke> hehe
08:36:04 <arke> we were suposed to draw coords on paper then he would tell us how to enter them into autocad
08:36:18 <arke> most people are still drawing, while i already hae it entered in autocad
08:36:19 <tathi> bah
08:36:20 <arke> :)
08:36:25 <tathi> autocad is pretty easy.
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08:36:31 <tathi> what version?
08:38:14 <arke> autocad lt 2002 education 
08:38:21 <arke> err, 2000
08:38:21 <arke> not 2002
08:41:05 <tathi> I think that's the version one of my brothers has.
08:41:51 <arke> :)
08:42:26 <tathi> have you done any drafting before?
08:48:38 <arke> not in a CAD program
08:48:43 <arke> and not in a classroom either
08:48:53 <arke> (except for a bit in woodshop 4 years ago)
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09:49:27 <madwork> Ahh, I love the simplicity...
09:49:27 <madwork> : enum
09:49:27 <madwork>      dup constant 1+
09:49:27 <madwork> ;
09:59:11 <qFox> eh
09:59:22 <qFox> ah right
09:59:31 <OrngeTide> 0 enum foo enum bar enum baz
09:59:32 <OrngeTide> right?
09:59:41 <madwork> yea, followed by drop
09:59:47 <OrngeTide> right. that's slick
10:00:05 <I440r_> or you can have 0 enum:  xxx yyy zzz ;enum
10:00:09 <I440r_> or something like that
10:00:34 <madwork> Yep, could do that too. More work, less typing. ;)
10:00:42 <OrngeTide> I440r_, that'd require a fancier definition.
10:00:54 <madwork> Hey, but I'll just have to try that one now.
10:01:10 <madwork> Maybe:
10:01:10 <madwork> 0 enum{ foo bar baz }
10:01:20 <madwork> OrngeTide, speech synth stuff: http://www3.sympatico.ca/ppridham/misc/sounds/
10:01:42 <OrngeTide> hey. neat:)
10:01:42 <madwork> It's really cheap and dirty, but hey.
10:01:59 <madwork> It's built for Allegro, but you could easily adapt it for some other sound lib.
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10:03:01 <OrngeTide> is it using diphonemes?
10:03:14 <madwork> Not even... just simple allophones.
10:03:24 <OrngeTide> oh i see all the .wav files
10:03:29 <madwork> Though, I was going to expand the SAM set eventually.
10:03:50 <madwork> Yea, like I said... cheap and dirty. ;) But hey, robot voice is kinda cool.
10:04:07 <OrngeTide> is sam your voice?
10:05:18 <madwork> Nope, it's taken from the old C64 SAM synth.
10:05:20 <OrngeTide> ehhe.. sounds neat:)
10:06:05 <madwork> I will eventually make a more diphonal set by sampling more inter-phoneme transitions (or whatever the devil you want to call it)
10:06:11 <OrngeTide> i can make out about 70% of what it's saying:)
10:07:00 <OrngeTide> basically you want to cut every phoneme in half. and then make a sample of every half with every other half.
10:07:40 <OrngeTide> WE CONTROL THE UNIVERSE
10:07:41 <madwork> Yep, that's the long way about it.
10:07:44 <madwork> Hehe. ;)
10:08:13 <madwork> The shorter way would be to just sample the most unique-sounding transitions.
10:11:32 <OrngeTide> rsynth uses a bunch of waveforms rather than recorded files. free data from some research project. so it's pretty compact and makes it easy to tweak transitions to provide varying amounts of stress
10:12:33 <madwork> Yea, cool... so, formant then? They are the ultimate IMO. There's some code for the speech synth from Gauntlet in the MAME source... gonna have to adapt that to my evil purposes some day.
10:13:20 <OrngeTide> hrm. i just compiled rsynth. it actually sounds a bit flat compared to yours. although it is easier to understand.
10:14:40 <madwork> There's probably a lot of parametric config you need to do to get it to have some colour.
10:14:58 <OrngeTide> yea.
10:29:00 <madwork> Whee!
10:29:00 <madwork> : enum{  ( n -- n+1 ) 
10:29:00 <madwork>      begin  
10:29:00 <madwork>           token dup "}" $= 0= 
10:29:00 <madwork>      while
10:29:00 <madwork>           " constant " swap $cat over swap $cat evaluate 1+
10:29:02 <madwork>      repeat
10:29:04 <madwork>      2drop
10:29:06 <madwork> ;
10:29:54 <qFox> hm wait
10:30:01 <I440r_> : token bl word here count ; ?
10:30:03 <qFox> that word is way larger then it was last time i saw it :p
10:30:33 <I440r_> qfox is the new IMPROVED version :)
10:30:37 <qFox> ahhh
10:31:16 <madwork> My "token" is basically like "bl word" but handles the other whitespace as well.
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10:32:31 <madwork> Works spiffily, too. :D
10:32:31 <madwork> 0 enum{ INVALID NOT_TESTED OK ERROR FATAL PASS FAIL SYNC_WAIT 
10:32:31 <madwork>      STOP }
10:32:54 <madwork> Oh, the joys of EVALUATE. I don't know how I lived without it before.
10:35:26 <I440r_> i hate evaluate lol
10:36:46 <I440r_> why cant the above simply be : emum{ being token dho '}' $= NOT ( note 0= is not NOT) while dup constant 1+ repeat drop ;
10:36:59 <I440r_> why the hell do you need to " constant" evaluate
10:37:15 <I440r_> thats an extra step i can see no purpose for
10:37:27 <tathi> token parses the word out, then constant can't find it.
10:37:29 <I440r_> never leave till run time what can be done at compile time
10:37:49 <tathi> though you could put it back in, presumably.
10:37:57 <I440r_> true
10:39:20 <I440r_> but undoing a parse is not easy i guess
10:39:42 <tathi> err, I thought that even in ANS you're supposed to be able to just set >IN back where it was.
10:40:02 <I440r_> not if the parse had to refill
10:44:08 <tathi> ah.
10:44:17 <tathi> ANS says the parsing words aren't allowed to refill.
10:44:33 <tathi> that's why they can do that.
10:46:26 <madwork> Yea, I pretty much have to evaluate to get stuff parsed.
10:47:12 <tathi> madwork: Forthy is your project?  That's what you're doing this under?
10:47:16 <madwork> Yea.
10:47:41 <tathi> just wanted to be sure I wasn't mixing you up with someone else :)
10:48:08 <madwork> :)
10:48:57 <madwork> Anyway, this evaluate method works. Hmm, actually, I probably *could* do it I440r_'s way. I'd just need to export another primitive for loading input only.
10:49:05 <madwork> Should work then.
10:49:12 <I440r_> preparse ? :)
10:49:15 <I440r_> parse-ahead
10:49:16 <I440r_> hehe
10:49:53 <madwork> Or how about $-> just to be really cryptic and cool. ;)
10:49:59 <tathi> I don't see any problem with using evaluate.
10:50:04 <tathi> I mean, it's your language.
10:50:10 <madwork> Yea, it works.
10:50:44 <madwork> But, with Forthy, I could just as easily create a language that does it the other way. I am just working with a certain set of primitives that I've created on the application side.
10:50:50 <tathi> yeah.
10:51:09 <tathi> If I were doing it in gforth (which is ANS), I'd probably just save and restore >IN
10:51:14 <tathi> I *think* that would be shorter.
10:51:26 <tathi> but then, I guess you'd have to check if you needed to refill, so maybe not.
10:55:41 <I440r_> tathi you cant do that
10:55:41 <I440r_> lets say your input buffer is " ..........XXXXX "
10:55:41 <I440r_> and you have parsed all the dots
10:55:41 <I440r_> you parse XXXX and now tib is EMPTY
10:55:41 <I440r_> oh maybe you can
10:55:41 <I440r_> it wont refill till you try parse again so you can still backtrack >in
10:55:41 <I440r_> nevermind :)
10:55:41 <tathi> yes.
10:55:41 <tathi> exactly. :)
10:55:41 <tathi> I assume that's why the ANS guys added that requirement.
10:55:41 <I440r_> it isnt an ans thing
10:55:41 <I440r_> its an 83 standard thing
10:55:41 <tathi> oh, ok.
10:55:41 <I440r_> bbl
10:55:41 <I440r_> phood
10:55:41 <tathi> I thought you took your parsing stuff from an F83 system.
10:55:41 <I440r_> i did
10:55:41 <I440r_> f83/fpc
10:55:41 <I440r_> but
10:55:41 <tathi> And you refill in parse-word, don't you?
10:55:41 <I440r_> i could never figure out their refill shit
10:55:41 <I440r_> i refill from within word itself
10:55:41 <I440r_> bbl
10:55:44 <tathi> :)
10:59:29 <madwork> I just do: fs_load_input(sys, string);
10:59:30 <madwork> :P
10:59:41 <tathi> :)
11:04:04 <madwork> :> 1 2 f+ 2.2 f*
11:04:04 <madwork> ok.
11:04:04 <madwork> :> .6.600000000000001 ok
11:04:04 <madwork> GAH!
11:06:35 <I440r_> thatll teach ya to use floats
11:07:41 <madwork> :> 1 2 + 2.2 *
11:07:42 <madwork> ok.
11:07:42 <madwork> :> .
11:07:42 <madwork> 6 ok
11:07:42 <madwork> Take that, you float muthasucka!
11:13:42 <madwork> Ooh... how about a one.of{ word? ie.
11:13:42 <madwork> status @ one.of{ OK FAIL FATAL } if foo then
11:32:46 <I440r_> thats like my either/neither words
11:32:59 <I440r_> but extends further :)
11:41:06 <madwork> Good name for a word that creates and assignes a value to a variable? (ie. CONSTANT) >var ?
11:44:44 <I440r_> i called it var
11:44:47 <I440r_> i have var and const
11:44:58 <I440r_> const creats a state smart immediate word
11:45:04 <I440r_> 0 const foo
11:45:15 <I440r_> when you execute foo in interpret mode it returns 0
11:45:23 <I440r_> when you execute it in compile mode it compiles a literal
11:45:42 <I440r_> imho thats the way variable and constant should have worked from day 1
11:46:08 <Robert> It's unforthish!
11:46:18 <Robert> (OK, that was a troll, but some people think so)
11:48:10 <I440r_> it would be forthish if it was like that from day 1
11:50:17 <madwork> Hey, that's a good point though.
11:50:26 <madwork> OK, I'll just call it var, anyway.
11:51:39 <I440r_> :)
11:52:01 <I440r_> and invention IS forthish :P
11:53:09 <madwork> Damn skippy. That's why you can all take a hike if you don't like my $cat evaluate stuff. ;)
11:55:58 <I440r_> hehe
11:56:02 * I440r_ takes a hile
11:56:05 <I440r_> hiKe even
11:56:11 <I440r_> man i wish i could type
11:56:57 <madwork> Hiking's good for you. I'm sure to send you on many more of them with my wacky Forthy antics. ;)
11:57:37 <Robert> We should arrange forth hikes.
11:57:48 <Robert> With portable Kestrels!
11:58:37 <madwork> Wearable Forth pedometers... sweet!
11:58:56 <madwork> We could hike back and Forth, it would be great fun.
11:59:52 <Robert> X-D
12:02:47 <madwork> 0x d $chr 0x a $chr $cat constant crlf
12:02:48 <madwork> Blargh.
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12:26:50 <slava> madwork, looking at your float experiments above
12:27:02 <slava> madwork, i have a problem where -1.1 3 ^ (^ is power of) returns a complex number :)
12:27:13 <slava>   ( 0 ) -1.1 3 ^ .
12:27:13 <slava> #{ -1.3310000000000004 4.890014668995383E-16 }
12:27:31 <slava> horray for inaccuracy
12:27:47 <I440r_> slava ./isforth runs and gets past the sys brk now but it segfaults in the header unpack code
12:28:00 <slava> ok
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12:31:58 <arke> hi
12:31:58 <arke> hi TheBlueWizard 
12:32:00 <arke> :)
12:32:55 <TheBlueWizard> arke hiya (said weakly)
12:33:17 <arke> :/
12:33:19 <arke> whats wrong?
12:33:50 <TheBlueWizard> still depressed
12:34:52 <madwork> Yea, gotta love it.
12:35:03 <madwork> Well, I won't really be using floats anyway.
12:35:26 <slava> madwork, i can use rational numbers instead of floats in some situations to have perfect accuracy
12:37:38 <arke> screw floats
12:37:41 <arke> use ibntegers
12:37:45 <arke> two of them
12:37:51 <arke> MUCH more acurate
12:38:26 <slava> that's what i have
12:38:26 <madwork> Yes, I like ibntegers.
12:38:52 <slava> but its not two integers on the stack, but a special 'ratio' type
12:39:06 <madwork> ibnt foo=10; // Good!
12:39:06 <madwork> fbloat bar=10; // Bad!
12:40:12 <arke> indeed.
12:40:36 <arke> typedef __ratio_s { int num; int den; } ratio_t 
12:40:57 <arke> ratio_t baz = fraction(10, 1);
12:41:34 <slava> in factor the numerator/denominator can be bignums too
12:42:52 <slava> so you can represent any number as accurately as you want, provided you have enough memory
12:45:25 <TheBlueWizard> gotta go...all bye
12:45:33 <madwork> ciao
12:46:58 <arke> bye TheBlueWizard 
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12:49:00 <madwork> If I'm at compile-time, I should expect EVALUATE to compile said string contents as code, yes?
12:50:20 <arke> err
12:50:34 <arke> at compile time, EVALUATE shoul at run-time evaluate the code
12:51:14 <madwork> Hmm.
12:53:16 <madwork> Hmm, 't'ain't what I'm doing. My evaluate is more like feeding input.
12:55:16 <I440r_> bye
12:55:22 <I440r_> wrong winow
12:55:23 <I440r_> lol
12:55:31 <madwork> bye! X-D
12:55:38 <I440r_> lol
12:55:58 <arke> :)
12:56:37 <madwork> I think it makes sense to compile the input during compilation.
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13:05:12 <arke> back :)
13:05:13 <arke> ho
13:05:17 <arke> hi
13:05:18 <arke> :P
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13:28:14 <madwork_> HAH!!
13:28:19 <madwork_> I was right, then.
13:28:34 <madwork_> Where's that arke? I can't even gloat if he's not here...
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13:29:51 <madwork> This is what Win32Forth does when evaluating at compile-time:
13:29:54 <madwork> : test :
13:29:54 <madwork> s" 123 ." evaluate
13:29:54 <madwork> ;  ok
13:29:54 <madwork>   ok
13:29:55 <madwork> test foo
13:29:57 <madwork> ;  ok
13:29:59 <madwork> foo 123  ok
13:30:23 <madwork> *compiles* the evaluated code, doesn't evaluate it.
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13:35:07 <qFox> thats because s" is an immediate
13:35:20 <madwork> That's not what I'm talking about though.
13:35:23 <qFox> oh
13:35:56 <madwork> the evaluate doesn't execute the 123 . at compile time... it compiles 123 . into the current definition.
13:36:18 <madwork> (which is what it does in Forthy too)
13:36:22 <madwork> arke had me scared. ;)
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14:14:27 <I440r_> ok, where the hell does fbsd store its terminfo files?
14:14:34 <I440r_> they arent in /usr/share/terminfo
14:14:53 <I440r_> /usr/compat/linux/usr/share/terminfo/z/z8001
14:14:54 <I440r_> grrr
14:15:05 <I440r_> fsck
14:15:18 <I440r_> that screws me over BIG TIME
14:15:46 <I440r_> i dont want one set of freekin extensions for linux and another for fbsd
14:15:56 <slava> no
14:15:57 <slava> you're wrong
14:16:00 <slava> there's terminfo elsewhere
14:16:19 <slava> oh i don't have terminfo instlaled even
14:16:22 <I440r_> THE standard place for it is in either /usr/share/terminfo or in ~/terminfo
14:16:29 <I440r_> you have ncurses
14:16:32 <I440r_> no ?
14:16:48 <slava> don't use /usr/compat/linux
14:16:55 <I440r_> im not about to
14:17:05 <OrngeTide> holy crap do i hate ncurses.
14:17:12 <slava> i have ncurses but i think it uses termcap
14:17:36 <I440r_> isforth needs terminfo files :/
14:17:42 <OrngeTide> ncurses can only use terminfo. there is a termcap compatibility layer in it, which translates terminfo to a libtermcap api
14:18:31 <I440r_> are you sure you have ncurses installed ?
14:18:33 <OrngeTide> terminfo is not not too bad. i'm just annoyed that on my system i'm required to link to ncurses to use terminfo library. 
14:18:50 <I440r_> terminfo is SERIOUSLY broken
14:18:51 <I440r_> oir
14:18:51 <slava> I440r, its part of the base system
14:18:51 <I440r_> or
14:18:55 <OrngeTide> maybe he just has bsd curses installed and has a ncurses symbolic link?
14:18:55 <slava> I440r, so yes its installed
14:18:59 <I440r_> rather all terminfo database files are braindead
14:18:59 <slava> I440r, but it uses termcap not terminfo files
14:19:10 <slava> /usr/lib/libncurses.so
14:19:10 <slava> /usr/lib/libncurses.so.5
14:19:13 <I440r_> slava isforth requires terminfo files :(
14:19:21 <I440r_> or
14:19:25 <slava> I440r, make the terminfo file path configurable
14:19:26 <OrngeTide> I440r_, the data in terminfo is the broken part. yes:)
14:19:28 <slava> I440r, hard-coded paths suck
14:19:28 <I440r_> some of its extensions do
14:19:38 <OrngeTide> in general unix has terrible terminals.
14:19:52 <I440r_> slava terminfo itself hardcodes it to /usr/share/termino or ~/.terminfo
14:20:05 <I440r_> that is THE accepted standard for the terminfo database
14:20:21 <slava> well bsd uses termcap and always has
14:20:34 <I440r_> termcap is like so last century lol
14:20:38 <OrngeTide> termios, allocation pseudoterminals, termcap, terminfo, ncurses, etc. all have been a massive pain in the ass.
14:20:41 <I440r_> but its more powerfull in some ways
14:20:54 <I440r_> parsing terminfo and termcap database files is VERY VERY forthlike
14:20:56 <slava> I440r, well, if you used libc and libncurses it would Just Work :-P
14:21:13 <OrngeTide> it's *easier* to write an X11 program or an OpenGL program than it is to write a program that can reliably draw something on an old terminal
14:21:16 <I440r_> slava no. i wont use ANY external libs in isforth
14:21:32 <I440r_> slava can you install terminfo ?
14:21:47 <I440r_> isforth is running in fbsd
14:21:48 <OrngeTide> I440r_, yea. i think the file format for termcap/terminfo isn't too shabby. i like stuff that takes little effort to parse.
14:21:51 <OrngeTide> YAY!
14:21:56 <slava> I440r, there is no terminfo
14:21:59 <OrngeTide> i thought you would never support fbsd?
14:22:02 <slava> > locate terminfo | grep ports
14:22:02 <I440r_> yes there is
14:22:05 <slava> gives nothing useful
14:22:17 <I440r_> im supporting slava
14:22:19 <slava> best i can do is symlink /compat/linux/usr/share/terminfo to /usr/share/terminfo
14:22:36 <I440r_> try that
14:22:44 <I440r_> im not sure if thats how your expected to do it tho
14:23:06 * OrngeTide wonders why he has /etc/terminfo/ and /usr/share/terminfo/
14:23:22 <I440r_> because 
14:23:30 <OrngeTide> oh. /etc is for apps that might be on /
14:23:43 <I440r_> right
14:23:45 <I440r_> hrm
14:23:45 <OrngeTide> much more limited database. but at least i can run vi
14:23:52 <I440r_> maybe isforth should use that then
14:24:29 <slava> I440r, done
14:24:37 <slava> i have no /etc/terminfo/
14:24:44 <OrngeTide> if you didn't need it to work in telnet/ssh/xterm you should have use /dev/vcsa
14:25:00 <slava> fbsd doesn't have that either ;)
14:25:08 <I440r_> ok the terminfo stuff segfaults hehe
14:25:08 <OrngeTide> does fbsd have anything?
14:25:47 <slava> it has no useless junk
14:31:33 <I440r_> whats the default terminal in fbsd ?
14:31:38 <I440r_> in linux its "Linux"
14:31:48 <I440r_> vt100 ?
14:32:03 <slava> lemme chec
14:32:14 <slava> cons25
14:32:25 <slava> i presume it will be cons50 etc depending on rows of your console
14:33:10 <I440r_> ca you cd into my ~/isforth and run ./isforth ?
14:34:00 <slava> ok
14:34:21 <slava> > ./isforth
14:34:21 <slava> Bad system call (core dumped)
14:34:32 <slava> oh wait
14:34:34 <I440r_> bad system call ???
14:34:36 <I440r_> cool!
14:34:42 <I440r_> that means its fixable hehe
14:34:43 <slava> let me do that agian
14:35:00 <I440r_> there must be some syscalls in the extensions
14:35:06 <I440r_> oh shit thats problematical
14:35:11 <slava> > ./isforth
14:35:11 <slava> Segmentation fault
14:35:21 <slava> i ran the wrong isforth
14:35:26 <slava> because i copy your dir to my home dir and run it there
14:35:37 <I440r_> oh hehe
14:35:47 <I440r_> want to see a copy that DOESNT segfault ?
14:36:02 <slava> because usr 'slava' doesn't have access to /home/i440r and i never run other ppl's stuff as root :-P
14:36:55 <I440r_> makes perfect sense to me
14:37:11 <I440r_> copy it out of my ~ as root to ~/slava and chown it :)
14:37:30 <I440r_> run this one - it works
14:37:35 <I440r_> but it has no terminal stuff in it
14:38:08 <slava> cool
14:38:39 <slava> your .s is wrong order :)
14:38:46 <I440r_> i need to get that terminal stuff working in BOTH linux and fbsd with IDENTICAL extensions
14:38:50 <slava> what does .r do?
14:38:58 <I440r_> right aligned
14:39:06 <slava> it prints an endless loop of spaces with an empty stack :)
14:39:09 <OrngeTide> what order should .s be? i've been both
14:39:29 <slava> 1 2 3 .s 1 2 3 ok IMHO
14:39:49 <OrngeTide> that's hard to do in machineforth...
14:40:00 <I440r_> thats hard to do PERIOD hehe
14:40:14 <I440r_> when does it do an endless stream of spaces
14:40:15 <OrngeTide> but i guess a regular forth you can just address the stack directly.
14:40:39 <OrngeTide> (by hard i mean under no circumstance should you attempt to do it)
14:40:48 <slava> who cares about machineforth :)
14:40:53 <slava> give me my p4 2.8 ghz dammit :)
14:41:02 <OrngeTide> a p4 running machineforth vm? :)
14:41:08 <slava> no
14:41:13 <slava> a p4 running a BLOATED fbsd with gui :-P
14:41:15 <I440r_> oh lol
14:41:21 <I440r_> .r takes a parameter lol
14:41:24 <I440r_> a width
14:41:31 <slava> I440r, why don't you use a guard page to detect underflow?
14:41:37 <OrngeTide> i should write machineforth for java. then i can run a vm in a vm.
14:41:39 <I440r_> n width .r displays n right aligned to width chars
14:41:49 <slava>   ( 0 ) drop
14:41:49 <slava> ERROR: Operating system signal 10
14:41:56 <I440r_> slava ill put signals in there eventually
14:42:15 <I440r_> .s  ok
14:42:15 <I440r_> drop Stack Underflow
14:42:32 <slava> yes but your underflow check is in the outer interpreter
14:42:36 <I440r_> man im soooooo freekin glad i got this runnin
14:42:44 <slava> eg, it won't due with 'drop 2' :-)
14:42:45 <I440r_> but i have to get it working with the terminal shit too!
14:42:48 <slava> yup
14:47:21 --- join: ADD-101 (~ADD-101@12-222-128-22.client.insightBB.com) joined #forth
14:47:36 --- join: FlamingRain (~Ecoder@c-24-129-95-254.se.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth
14:48:00 <I440r_> whose bit is add-101 ?
14:48:08 <I440r_> i have to assume its a bot cuz it never talks
14:48:28 <Robert> Either that or he's very shy.
14:49:26 <I440r_> :)
14:50:14 <OrngeTide> my forth will only support framebuffer devices. then i can nicely side-step all this terminal crap. it will be easier and I can pretend it's a feature rather than me just being lazy.
14:53:10 <slava> OrngeTide, heh
14:53:13 <slava> OrngeTide, SDL?
14:55:46 --- quit: ADD-101 (Remote closed the connection)
15:00:50 --- quit: qFox ("meh ircii's netsplit detection appearantly sux ^^")
15:04:20 <slava>   ( 1 ) 2 2 * .
15:04:20 <slava> 0
15:04:23 <slava> hrrmmph err...
15:04:29 <I440r_> err where u get that ?
15:04:32 <slava> in factor
15:04:35 <I440r_> oh hehe
15:04:36 <I440r_> phew
15:04:37 <slava> i'm working on some changes to the C code
15:04:42 <slava> to get it 64-bit clean
15:04:53 <I440r_> define clean ?
15:05:05 <slava> working on a 64-bit arch
15:05:09 <slava> OH FUCK look at this
15:05:12 <slava> CORRECT: ((xprod << HALF_WORD_SIZE) + lprod);
15:05:18 <slava> BEFORE: (xprod << HALF_WORD_SIZE + lprod);
15:05:24 <I440r_> hehe
15:05:30 <slava> precedence of <<
15:05:33 <slava> i hate this infix math bullshit
15:05:39 <I440r_> ya
15:05:46 <I440r_> neway time to disappear for home
15:05:49 <I440r_> brb
15:05:53 --- quit: I440r_ ("gone home")
15:17:10 <OrngeTide> slava, nah. i'd just use a real framebuffer and avoid too many library depedencies.
15:17:33 <OrngeTide> (like i said. i'm lazy)
15:17:46 --- quit: OrngeTide ("time to go")
15:19:21 --- quit: FlamingRain ("Leaving")
15:57:47 --- quit: Topaz ("Leaving")
17:02:15 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@66-74-218-202.san.rr.com) joined #forth
17:02:15 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja
17:06:42 <kc5tja> Well, this just sucks.  Starting September 13th, I am going on graveyard shift.
17:06:44 <kc5tja> >:/
17:07:10 <kc5tja> Maybe if I'm lucky, I can do some coding on FTS/Forth from remote, but still, it also means I won't have anyone to talk to on IRC, and nobody to talk to via e-mail either.  *sigh*
17:08:06 <slava> hi kc5tja 
17:11:46 * kc5tja sighs -- brb -- gotta reboot a server
17:11:50 * kc5tja is still at work.
17:15:23 <kc5tja> That was easy.  The server apparently was being rebooted by another technician.  Joy.
17:16:16 <Herkamire> kc5tja: what hours? like 11pm-7am?
17:17:36 <Herkamire> kc5tja: bad time for irc
17:17:43 <Herkamire> kc5tja: does it pay more that way?
17:17:57 --- join: Sonarman (~matt@adsl-64-169-94-26.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth
17:22:15 <kc5tja> 10PM to 7AM.
17:22:21 <kc5tja> No, same pay.
17:22:40 <kc5tja> Also, only two days off instead of three.  Pissy!!
17:22:50 <kc5tja> But, at least I can SSH into my box at home and hack on stuff.
17:23:07 <kc5tja> Even if I can't reboot the server into L4.  :)
17:23:26 <kc5tja> Although, if someone were to donate a nice laptop capable of running Linux, I could definitely work on the L4 version of FTS/Forth then.
17:23:42 <kc5tja> (don't do that until I'm ready for it though.  And it won't be ready at least until FTS/Forth for Linux is running.)
17:23:44 <Herkamire> :)
17:24:16 <Herkamire> you expect to have lots of free time on that shift?
17:24:21 <kc5tja> Damn, my lunch hour is now over.  *sigh*
17:24:26 <kc5tja> I know I will.
17:24:29 <kc5tja> Especially over the weekends.
17:24:32 <Herkamire> well that's cool
17:24:53 <kc5tja> If the day shift does their job, the case board will typically only have 5 or so cases, and we can blow through them really easily.
17:24:55 <fridge> I do
17:25:05 <fridge> I hate interruptions though
17:25:11 <kc5tja> Me too.
17:25:30 <Herkamire> fridge: you do what?
17:25:38 <fridge> nightshifty type work
17:25:49 <fridge> playing mr fix it in the wee hours
17:25:59 <kc5tja> fridge: So you're available to chat in IRC during graveyard hours?
17:26:13 <fridge> get some stretches of free time, but it seems whenever I start to get involved with something interesting
17:26:21 <fridge> something work related will catch on fire
17:26:34 <fridge> kc5tja: not  your graveyard hours
17:26:35 <kc5tja> I know the feeling.
17:29:06 <Sonarman> 11:48:18 <qFox> on the plus-side, we have complete freedom (of course this is useless, at least for me, working on a mac)
17:29:09 <Sonarman> 11:54:19 <OrngeTide> qFox, Ircle used to be popular.
17:29:11 <Sonarman> sorry
17:29:12 <Sonarman> MMB
17:29:21 <Sonarman> first time in months. i'm getting better!
17:29:48 <slava> lol
17:34:51 <kc5tja> Heheh
18:04:41 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@modem-129.nyc-tc03b.FCC.NET) joined #forth
18:04:41 --- mode: ChanServ set +o TheBlueWizard
18:05:11 <kc5tja> re TheBlueWizard 
18:05:34 <TheBlueWizard> kc5tja hiya
18:07:40 <kc5tja> TheBlueWizard: Still at work.
18:07:54 <kc5tja> Going to go graveyard starting on 2004sep13.
18:08:11 <TheBlueWizard> ugh
18:08:35 <kc5tja> In many ways, I agree with you.
18:09:04 <kc5tja> OTOH, and almost certainly for the weekends, it also means up to six hours a night just hacking on my FTS/Forth for Linux implementation too.
18:09:07 <kc5tja> :)
18:09:39 * slava is splitting a 7k line java file into manageable chunks
18:09:48 <slava> i hate this
18:09:50 <kc5tja> That is probably a good idea.  :)
18:10:20 <TheBlueWizard> hmm...I never have done a graveyard shift, so I can't say... :-P
18:11:53 <kc5tja> In this industry, MOST people that late at night won't flood our phones with actual work to do.
18:13:50 <TheBlueWizard> heh...point
18:34:46 <TheBlueWizard> slava: there are Java refactoring toolkits...have you checked them out?
18:35:30 * TheBlueWizard hasn't looked at any of those refactoring toolkits though :)
18:35:30 <slava> nah i do it by hand :)
18:35:44 <TheBlueWizard> heh...ya macho guy :)
18:36:00 <slava> TheBlueWizard, i'm going to be making some automatic refactoring tools for factor though
18:36:41 <TheBlueWizard> "factor" is some new language?
18:37:12 <slava> factor.sf.net
18:37:23 <TheBlueWizard> ah ok
18:58:05 <Herkamire> one good entry in the irct animation contest: http://www.irtc.org/ftp/pub/anims/2004-07-15/dlights.mpg
19:10:51 <kc5tja> I love it when our customers get the following error message:
19:10:52 <kc5tja> The system cannot boot because the following file is missing:
19:10:52 <kc5tja> <Windows Root>\system32\ntoskrnl.exe
19:10:55 <kc5tja> Please install a copy of this file and try again.
19:11:13 <slava> well, you know, windows sucks... :)
19:11:30 <TheBlueWizard> oh nice...ha ha ha!
19:11:54 <kc5tja> Yeah.  :D
19:14:41 * TheBlueWizard laughs...he has seen some weird Winblows behaviors at work...though for the most part it's surprisingly stable (contrary to hearing stories of Windows constantly crashing on Slashdot, etc.)
19:14:57 <slava> the big problem with windows now is not stability but security
19:15:05 <slava> an unpatched windows box lasts 20 mins on broadband
19:16:23 <TheBlueWizard> yup...that's a big problem....and I'm the security guy for Winblows at work (at the moment anyway...)
19:16:29 --- nick: Tomasu -> TomasuDlrrp
19:17:07 <kc5tja> That's because Slashdotters (a) are a bunch of new-age crybaby freaks of nature that don't know a fuckin' server from a hole in the ground, and (b) they have no freaking clue how to manage a Windows box to save their life.
19:17:18 <kc5tja> My complaints against Windows are purely technical, reaching deep down into the kernel level.
19:17:45 * TheBlueWizard nods
19:17:53 <kc5tja> But many of the complaints of other /.ers is rediculously skin-deep -- hardly kernel-level issues, and quite often, these same people are those who have HIGHLY customized desktops with specialized shells that completely replace explorer.exe, etc.
19:18:03 <kc5tja> Gee, I wonder why everything is so damn unstable.  Freaking morons.
19:18:21 <TheBlueWizard> there are so many wrong things with Winblows...a real pain to maintain
19:22:09 <kc5tja> Well, take it from me, a similar case can be made for Linux too.
19:22:42 * kc5tja has yet to touch a BSD box except to reboot it though (and the reboots are necessary only because the cage it's in is something close to 80 to 85 degrees consistently.)
19:23:15 <TheBlueWizard> yeah...it can be hard to figure out which file govern the settings, for example (they are scattered all over :P)
19:29:23 <Herkamire> linux isn't very approachable
19:29:46 <slava> hi Herkamire 
19:29:49 <Herkamire> you can't turn it on, and poke around to try to figure out how to use it
19:29:52 <Herkamire> hi slava :)
19:31:04 <Herkamire> I split some blocks, and rewrote some of herkforth
19:31:12 <slava> cool
19:31:22 <slava> i'm working on 64-bit cpu support in factor
19:31:22 <Herkamire> now it will fit on a 40 line terminal
19:31:27 <slava> :)
19:33:12 <Herkamire> eurika!
19:34:24 <TheBlueWizard> "eureka" is the correct spelling :)
19:34:49 <kc5tja> Heheh -- 40 line terminal. :)
19:35:06 <Herkamire> TheBlueWizard: thanks. didn't look right
19:35:09 <Herkamire> kc5tja: what?
19:35:56 <Herkamire> kc5tja: do you work in 80x25?
19:36:32 <kc5tja> Many times, yes.
19:38:21 <Herkamire> I'd love to have the source split up better, but it's only recently that I've improved the ascii import/export so that I can LOAD blocks out of order
19:38:33 <kc5tja> Hehe :D
19:38:41 <Herkamire> so until recently, if I wanted to add something, I had to make blocks bigger
19:38:42 <slava> Herkamire, you're talking to a man who used to write 7000 line java files in a past life
19:38:53 <slava> Herkamire, so don't tell me YOU need to split your sources better :)
19:39:08 * kc5tja would like to have a more logical organization, that approaches the simplicity of straight-up blocks, but still gives me additional capabilities without much expense.s
19:39:16 <Herkamire> slava: I need to split my sources better
19:39:43 <slava> kc5tja, its called files
19:39:57 <kc5tja> slava: Files do not approach the simplicity of blocks.
19:39:58 <Herkamire> most of the big blocks I have, have stuff that I would put in different catagories. they would be easy to split logically.
19:40:08 <kc5tja> Also, files must be explicitly opened, closed, seeked through, etc.
19:40:21 <Herkamire> files are a PITA
19:40:21 <kc5tja> You just can't use them like you can blocks, which mimicks virtual memory in its usage.
19:40:34 <kc5tja> PITA, perhaps, but nonetheless a necessary evil.
19:40:44 <Herkamire> I like having source in small, manageable bits that fit on the screen
19:40:53 <kc5tja> Files == objects, btw.  And a flat organization is very doable.
19:41:14 <Herkamire> I'm not with you on FILES==object
19:41:15 <Herkamire> s
19:41:24 <kc5tja> A file is just a chunk of bytes.
19:41:25 <Herkamire> files have an API I don't like
19:41:30 <kc5tja> They can be referenced by number only.
19:41:38 <kc5tja> There is no need to reference them by name all the time.
19:41:43 <slava> kc5tja, write words to load/save entire files as strings...
19:41:46 <Herkamire> they are referenced by name/path
19:42:05 <kc5tja> Herkamire: Not *always*.
19:42:16 <kc5tja> Even Unix references files by inode number.
19:42:24 <kc5tja> Don't believe me?  Do an ls -i some day.  :)
19:42:39 <Herkamire> kc5tja: neat
19:42:45 <kc5tja> The filename/directory thing is just a user interface issue.
19:42:48 <kc5tja> It's not a strict necessity.
19:43:02 <slava> kc5tja, you can't open a file by inode # for security reasons
19:43:24 <Herkamire> I don't like the open(append/clear/overwrite)/close/read/write/seek API
19:43:24 <kc5tja> Folks, please stop confusing little, insignificant details with the core concepts.
19:43:38 <kc5tja> You can't do this...you can't do that...files are references by....who cares?
19:43:46 <kc5tja> The point is, it doesn't HAVE to be that way.
19:44:45 <slava> Herkamire, why not?
19:45:09 <kc5tja> slava: Because it gets in the way of getting real work done.
19:45:32 <slava> i've never had a problem coding with file apis in java or unix libc
19:45:40 <TheBlueWizard> yeah.  indeed, at least in the past one can literally treat the directory as if it were a file, and read the content, which looked something like this: a sequence of (filename: 14 chars) (inode number)
19:45:42 <kc5tja> I hate it.
19:46:00 <kc5tja> I've never "had a problem" either, but it ... is ... just ... such ... a .... CHORE!
19:46:11 <Herkamire> kc5tja: exactly
19:46:31 <kc5tja> Blocks are damn sweet because, like I said, it actually has virtual memory semantics.
19:46:42 <slava> i still don't see why its a chore
19:46:51 <Herkamire> int fd;
19:46:52 <slava> you can wrap file streams in higher level abstractions
19:46:57 <kc5tja> 123 BLOCK returns the in-memory address of block 123.  If it's not there, it loads it.  If it has to evict another block to do so, it does.  Etc.
19:47:08 <TheBlueWizard> Herkamire: what do you think of REBOL's approach to file I/O?
19:47:09 <Herkamire> fd open( bla blabla bla, bla, bla);
19:47:12 <kc5tja> slava: Abstractions, on top of abstractions, on top of abstractions . . . where does it stop?
19:47:21 <Herkamire> if(fd == -1) { bla bla bla }
19:47:31 <Herkamire> char* buff;
19:47:32 <slava> Herkamire, the thing is you only write that once if you wanted to
19:47:44 <slava> nobody is forcing you to duplicate your code
19:47:54 <Herkamire> buff = malloc(...how do you get the size of a file?);
19:48:30 <Herkamire>  /* FIXME: check for error */ read(fb, buff, SIZE_OF_FILE);
19:48:35 <Herkamire> close(fd);
19:48:36 <slava> no, you use a growable buffer
19:48:56 <slava> or you use stat()
19:49:08 <I440r> growable buffers arent supported in 2.2 kernels i dont believe
19:49:15 <slava> I440r, its not a kernel thing
19:49:17 <I440r> if you want backwards compat yer secrewed
19:49:17 <slava> you read some bytes
19:49:19 <slava> append to your buffer
19:49:23 <I440r> oh
19:49:26 <slava> if its not big enough, allocate a new one
19:49:30 <slava> etc
19:49:33 <I440r> i thunked you meant grows down buffers for stacks :)
19:49:46 <Herkamire> my point is it's 5 lines of code, just to get access to the data in a file, and it's still crappy code. does not do full error checking etc.
19:49:53 <kc5tja> I get the size of a file by seeking to the end, and then seeking to the beginning of the file again.
19:50:39 <slava> Herkamire, its 10 lines if you do it properly, and its 10 lines that you only write once
19:50:54 <Herkamire> slava: bull
19:51:07 <kc5tja> Once per program, maybe.
19:51:17 <slava> then make a library
19:51:37 <kc5tja> slava: You gave me an idea which I'm going to play with, earlier up.
19:51:42 <Herkamire> how about I make an OS?
19:52:01 <kc5tja> slava: The idea is that blocks are fixed in size.  Files aren't.  But if I reference a file by number too, then it can still have cache-like semantics.
19:52:12 <kc5tja> I'm not sure how I'd be able to grow the file, I'll get to that later.
19:52:15 <slava> still i wouldn't bother caching file contents
19:52:19 <slava> the kernel does it for you
19:52:27 <slava> or just mmap your files
19:52:36 <kc5tja> But, that being said, I can say something like, "123 FILE" and have it return the base address of the file.  I can then use @ and ! to update the contents of the file, and use UPDATE-FILE or something to mark it as dirty.
19:53:23 <Herkamire> data that changes length can be tricky
19:53:27 <Herkamire> because then it must be able to move
19:53:38 <Herkamire> seems like that will be a bit of a pain.
19:53:43 <Herkamire> but not too bad I think
19:53:44 <slava> memcpy()
19:53:45 <Herkamire> I'll get to that later
19:53:47 <slava> realloc()
19:53:49 <slava> trivial
19:53:56 <Herkamire> talking about in herkforth. sorry I didn't specify
19:54:00 <slava> oh :)
19:54:05 <kc5tja> brb -- have to do facilities monitoring now.
19:54:40 <Herkamire> I haven't totally figured out how I'm storing data
19:55:35 <Herkamire> there will certainly have to be some additions when I start having large/many data files
19:56:21 <Herkamire> but that might be as simple as making it so bootstrapping/saving doesn't make a complete copy of _everything_
19:57:09 <slava> i'm kind of stuck on some memory management details
19:57:22 <slava> when i start having compiled code, i'd like to keep it in a separate heap, to help the cpu cache
19:57:39 <slava> but this causes complications if the compiled code refers to objects in the data heap
19:57:45 <slava> eg, if you compile a word that has a literal string in it
19:58:00 <slava> since objects in the data heap can move around
19:58:26 <slava> either i'd have to use a non-moving collector, or store a separate table of offsets in the compiled code where pointers to the data heap are
20:03:31 <Herkamire> how can they move around?
20:03:38 <Herkamire> you must keep track of them somehow
20:04:11 <Herkamire> compiled code would use the same system to keep track of them 
20:04:35 <slava> well, right now the gc knows the structure of all heap objects since there's only a handful of cases
20:04:43 <Herkamire> eg instead of a direct literal, it'd contain a painter to a pointer to where the data currently is, and would dereference at runtime
20:04:44 <slava> but for compiled code, you can't really have the gc do disassembly ;)
20:04:51 <slava> that's possible
20:05:01 <slava> have compiled code reference a table, and the gc treats the table entries as roots
20:06:34 <TheBlueWizard> well, gotta go...all bye!
20:06:49 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth
20:14:57 <kc5tja> back
20:17:46 <kc5tja> slava: That is essentially what Smalltalk does.
20:29:31 <kc5tja> Also MacOS does the same thing, although it doesn't do garbage collection.
20:30:25 --- join: arke (apache@11.198.216.81.dre.siw.siwnet.net) joined #forth
20:30:44 <slava> hi arke
20:30:51 <arke> hi kc5tja :)
20:31:43 --- quit: arke (Client Quit)
20:36:10 <Herkamire> ahhhhh that bath felt good
20:38:20 <kc5tja> Wow.
20:38:24 <kc5tja> Arke really needs to learn patience.
20:39:31 <I440r> lol
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21:23:16 <kc5tja> re snow
21:23:21 <kc5tja> re snowrichard 
21:23:22 <kc5tja> rather
21:23:23 <kc5tja> :)
21:23:36 * I440r is making 223's with a lee loader lol
21:23:48 <I440r> like one eveyy minute or so
21:23:57 <kc5tja> What?
21:24:02 <kc5tja> You totally lost me on that.
21:24:15 <I440r> ammo for my ar-15
21:24:52 <kc5tja> oh.
22:01:18 --- quit: TomasuDlrrp (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
22:04:41 <kc5tja> Hey, I'm going home.  I'll log in in about a half hour to an hour or so, depending on how fast I can wrap things up in the office.
22:05:06 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK")
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22:54:04 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja
22:54:21 <slava> hey kc5tja 
22:55:29 <I440r> slava im 99% posative i know how to fix isforth in fbsd :)
22:55:43 <I440r> its not the terminal stuff. its the mmap syscall my memory manager makes
22:55:48 <I440r> it uses the LINUX method lol
22:55:55 <I440r> not the fbsd method/
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/04.09.03