00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.08.24 00:00:37 --- quit: mur (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 00:02:48 so you mean to tell me 00:02:57 that you had one month 00:03:04 and you're only one level higher then i? 00:03:08 nooooob! :p 00:03:58 no 00:03:59 except 00:04:06 that you started 2 days before me 00:04:11 n000000000000000000000000000000b 00:04:41 and i was a month offline sir 00:04:45 a whole month 00:05:00 i know you havent missed me or anything, but its true :p 00:11:36 Hey 00:11:51 hi Robert 00:12:22 So... today I can go to school a bit later. 00:12:45 * Robert thinks about what to do until then. 00:16:52 build my mysql app 00:17:21 Bah :) 00:17:36 nono not bah, needed! :p 00:18:06 But it's boring! 00:18:16 hm, no argument there 00:18:18 :) 00:18:41 Hehe 00:18:55 Well, I've been thinking about writing a gomoku program for a while. 00:19:05 But solving it completely just gets WAY too complex. 00:19:35 nope 00:19:38 So I think I'll have to play with either pattern recognition or a search. 00:19:45 :) 00:19:50 qFox: A 19x19 board is NOT too complex? 00:19:58 i have a main body that can do it quite simple 00:20:05 no not really 00:20:09 just much 00:20:15 not really complex 00:20:28 Ehm, right, but still unrealistic. 00:20:33 not either 00:20:45 How come? 00:20:45 just look beyond the seemingly big number 00:21:01 its a 19x19 board where you have to try and get 5 in a row, right? 00:21:11 rules of placement like tictactoe 00:21:30 Right. 00:21:40 ok this is what the body would look like 00:21:59 while (depth >= 0) 00:22:18 while (depth < 19*19 && currentmove < totalmoves) 00:22:23 inc depth 00:22:46 if (totalmoves == 0) 00:22:48 counttotalmoves 00:22:55 currentmove = 0 00:22:58 } 00:23:18 currentmove += 1 00:23:22 makenextmove 00:23:29 ;while 00:23:34 (game here) 00:24:03 while (depth >= 19*19 or currentmove >= totalmove) 00:24:10 totalmove = 0 00:24:14 depth -= 1 00:24:17 ;while 00:24:20 depth -= 1 00:24:22 ;while 00:24:23 done. 00:24:30 Hrm. 00:24:36 i hope the branching made a little sense 00:24:44 btw you check for a win situation after the makenextmove 00:24:49 forgot that one :) 00:25:07 this is the system i used for connect4, and way back for tictactoe 00:25:25 it works, you just need big ass counters and a huge harddrive for storage :) 00:25:35 Big ass, as in...? 00:25:42 (19x19 board :) 00:25:44 19*19 ! 00:25:56 minus invalid moves 00:26:08 (moves after somebody won) 00:26:47 i cant do 19*19 ! on my calculator 00:26:50 can windows do it? 00:26:55 Hah. 00:27:18 ; ln((19*19)!) 00:27:18 1768.74855131074062253074 00:27:25 ln? 00:27:30 why take the natural log 00:27:43 Because the number itself is too long to paste ;) 00:27:51 meh 00:28:01 how many digits 00:28:14 768 00:28:25 now see 00:28:27 :p 00:28:37 not unrealistic, just huge 00:28:43 Unrealistic. 00:28:52 VERY unrealistic on this side of the universe. 00:28:55 your glass is just half empty :D 00:29:20 well just imagine the fame you'd get for solving the game! 00:29:25 Pffft 00:29:39 I wouldn't get it for solving the game, but for breaking the laws of physics. 00:29:44 btw 00:29:54 keep in mind that you can at least devide that figure thru 4 00:30:02 see, one step closer to reality ;) 00:30:41 Hah. 00:30:45 make me proud grasshopper! 00:31:20 Well, I think it's more realistic to do a non-complete search. 00:31:55 If you're only allowed to use neighboring squares (to ones filled up already) it shouldn't be THAT hard. 00:32:38 it will make the code much more complicated though 00:32:54 Right, but I _will_ give it a chance to finish before the universe disappears. 00:33:00 but yes, that would limit it 00:33:02 hahah 00:33:12 but then you will have many double situations 00:33:17 I could even try to figure out what areas that are "dead" and discard them. 00:33:39 Hmm.. 00:33:44 well good luck, but i'm telling you, the code will get much more complicated 00:33:48 I could store the earlier games and check for those. 00:33:56 Of course it will. 00:34:03 may i suggest you start with a small board, 5x5 ("small") 00:34:11 But it's like 3D games, if you COULD write them with one line of code you would, but you can't :P 00:34:12 and create the code for the full crunching 00:34:30 Yes, I won't start with a 100x100 board in the first run :) 00:34:32 then change the dimensions and alter the code for your purpose 00:34:36 haw 00:34:48 checkers is 10x10 by default 00:34:55 Isn't it 8x8? 00:34:57 so i'm starting with 10x10, not 2x2 00:34:59 thats chess 00:35:10 I know it's chess, but I thought checkers also used 8x8 00:35:16 at least dutch checkers is 10x10... 00:35:37 Bah, dutchies. When will you learn? 00:36:25 Hmm... 00:36:37 lets see what the msn version has to say 00:36:43 damn you 00:36:44 . 00:36:44 Seems like the complexity when using the neighboring criteria drops off pretty rapidly. 00:36:54 well. 00:37:10 its easy when it goes for the last move 00:37:15 Second try - 8 possibilities, thirt - about 10, fourth, about 12... 00:37:16 in that case very easy 00:37:23 but also very unrealistic imo 00:38:04 ok so checkers is 8x8 00:38:06 You can do almost half a dozen moves before it gets unrealisticly complex :D 00:38:26 how many stones does that checkers have then? 00:38:29 cant be 20 00:38:30 :) 00:38:38 16? 00:39:01 But I'm thinking about how I could save board positions. Maybe a very simple storage format, so I can do fast checks for equality. 00:39:08 ah 00:39:21 i used a simple mechanism for that 00:39:30 not very fast, or well... i dont know 00:39:33 For examples, 2 bits per square. Makes 16 squares per dword. 16 dwords would make a 16x16 board, which isn't unrealistic at all. 00:39:44 save the board each depth (tree search) 00:39:45 And also pretty fast to compare 00:40:18 Well, the problem is that many of the starting positions will generate equal future trees. 00:40:19 so the first depth at start (depth 0), you have a clean board with no moves 00:40:30 And if I want it to be somewhat fast, I need to detect some of those. 00:40:37 at the begin of the loop copy board[depth-1] to board[depth] 00:41:00 yes that is your problem, one that will not be easily fixed i'm afraid 00:41:03 i havent bothered 00:41:17 Hehe 00:41:32 let me try and find some webspace stuff 00:41:35 Well, my other computer has 512MB of RAM. 00:41:41 (new isp so i'm gonna have to search) 00:41:47 hm ram isnt your enemy 00:41:54 ; (512*2^20)/(16*4) 00:41:54 8388608 00:41:56 unless you gonna buffer it all 00:42:05 That many 16x16 boards. 00:42:17 not sure how you get to that figure 00:42:20 oh 00:42:25 And I think doing a binary search to look them up won't be too unrealistic. 00:42:26 you mean games 00:42:33 Well, board positions. 00:42:35 yeah 00:42:45 well thats why i'm gonna use a database for it 00:42:45 So I can have lists of "good" and "bad" ones. 00:42:50 * qFox nods 00:43:06 So if I do a "bad" move I can detect it many moves ahead. 00:43:23 it'll be heavy though 00:43:39 Hehe 00:43:46 then again, for "just" 8million games, thats no big deal 00:44:08 I wonder how far those 8 million ones will get me. 00:44:18 i dont think they'll cover it. 00:44:21 but thats just me 00:44:32 Nah, not an entire game. 00:45:05 But I could experiment with doing some of the work run-time, and only load from the database what fits there :) 00:45:47 i've asked my mom to install the compuserve software, maybe that'll help to get some webspace info 00:45:54 as i dont have a clue right now 00:46:01 :/ 00:46:08 well 00:46:11 we have 7x20mb 00:46:17 quite much for isp webspace 00:46:39 I'd get a "real" web host if my site was popular. 00:46:41 But it isn't, so.. 00:46:57 i was gonna, but i dont have the cash for it right now 00:47:10 was 80E for a year, including 2 domains and the whole deal 00:47:23 i will one day put up this gamesolutions website though 00:47:43 i'm sure it will attract at least some ppl 00:48:05 64.121.9.13 - - [22/Aug/2004:11:00:41 +0200] "GET /pub/pictures/freaky/ HTTP/1.1" 200 5323 "-" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.17; Mac_PowerPC)" 00:48:08 Hehe 00:48:13 The most popular part of my page :P 00:48:19 i dont get it 00:48:43 I have various things on my site, as you may know. 00:49:13 my tunnelvision tells me you only have forth on your website 00:49:14 :p 00:49:23 Haha 00:49:26 hm 00:49:33 maybe i can still access the old webspace! 00:49:33 Well, I have two main languages on my site. 00:49:39 well so do i 00:49:40 puh 00:49:45 And one is Forth ;) 00:49:46 and mine are way leeter 00:49:51 oh those languages 00:49:52 hehe 00:50:12 And I think the second one is nice too ;) 00:50:16 oh sweet 00:50:25 here i can use my old isp 00:50:52 http://members.home.nl/qfox/4.f 00:51:23 oh this will create a file with records to be put into mysql 00:51:32 about 3x as big as the other would 00:52:00 look below, at that main loop. thats basically what you need 00:52:22 afk 00:52:35 Shit. 00:52:40 Doing that in Forth... :D 00:52:42 See you 00:53:20 That code could scare anyone, heheh 00:56:26 well i had done it in worse languages ;) 00:56:33 this code aint all that slow though 00:56:48 well, with the logging maybe 00:56:49 :) 00:57:07 anything up to 4x4 (excluding 4x4) is quite fast 00:57:12 4x4 takes a few minutes 00:57:20 (several with the logging on) 00:58:32 Heh. 00:59:00 3x3 board for a 4-in-a-row game? 01:01:17 well, you'll get all draw games 01:01:18 :) 01:01:33 but it served to check the validity of the code 01:01:44 (whether it was actually trying every move correctly) 01:01:50 Ah, OK 01:02:17 code needs to be cleaned up i guess 01:02:25 worse part is checking for a win though 01:02:27 So, I'm doing some calculations on the complexity here. 01:02:30 the diagonal is evil 01:02:41 Up to move 4 I have ~2.5k possible moves. ;) 01:02:58 and it only grows after that 01:03:13 exponentially, no less 01:03:17 Well, probably a lot fewer since I haven't checked for equal games yet. 01:03:48 I'm not sure exactly HOW rapidly it grows. 01:03:56 Have to experiment a little with that. 01:03:59 at least you have a nice challenging project on your hands now ;) 01:04:04 Yes :D 01:04:09 * Robert pets qFox 01:04:25 --- nick: mur_ -> mur 01:04:25 its good that you find my challenges equally fun :p 01:04:30 You give me, uhm, good, ideas. :) 01:04:46 compuserve is sux. 01:04:50 Hehe 01:16:11 great job 01:16:14 the help forum page 01:16:19 is an asterix 01:16:20 :s 01:17:34 stupid fucking browser of theirs 01:17:47 --- quit: mur (Remote closed the connection) 01:18:19 --- join: mur (~mur@kyberias.uiah.fi) joined #forth 01:18:25 CompuServe is in the process of sending you to another page... please wait. 01:18:25 Certain older browsers do not support this feature. If this message is displayed for more than a few seconds, please click here to go on, or contact Customer Service for more information. 01:18:33 newest browser, its not working 01:18:34 :p 01:18:59 :D 01:19:01 Fun 01:21:14 and i was so content with their service so far 01:21:20 now they have to ruin it like this 01:21:35 This area can not be accessed by your account. 01:21:39 FUCKING HELP FORUM 01:21:56 XD 01:22:06 fine i'll send google at them! >_< 01:25:42 it really is annoying though 01:34:38 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK") 02:55:11 --- join: mur_ (~mur@kyberias.uiah.fi) joined #forth 03:07:43 --- quit: mur (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 03:14:54 --- quit: qFox ("meh ircii's netsplit detection appearantly sux ^^") 03:20:38 --- join: qFox (~C00K13S@82-169-140-229-mx.xdsl.tiscali.nl) joined #forth 03:47:47 --- quit: mur_ (Remote closed the connection) 03:48:20 --- join: mur (~mur@uiah.fi) joined #forth 03:50:57 * Tomasu is away: nigit 03:51:03 --- nick: Tomasu -> TomasuDlrrp 04:41:35 --- join: mur_ (~mur@uiah.fi) joined #forth 04:43:32 --- quit: mur (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 04:59:25 --- join: crc (crc@130-pool1.ras11.nynyc-t.alerondial.net) joined #forth 05:44:20 --- quit: mur_ (Remote closed the connection) 05:44:52 --- join: mur (~mur@uiah.fi) joined #forth 06:05:49 --- quit: crc (Client Quit) 06:55:25 --- join: mur_ (~mur@uiah.fi) joined #forth 06:57:40 --- quit: mur (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 08:12:25 --- quit: mur_ (Remote closed the connection) 08:13:08 --- join: mur (~mur@mgw2.uiah.fi) joined #forth 08:48:12 --- quit: madgarden (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 08:48:18 --- join: madgarden_ (~madgarden@Toronto-HSE-ppp3706683.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 08:54:34 --- quit: thin ("leaving") 09:08:40 --- quit: onetom (Remote closed the connection) 09:08:44 --- join: onetom (~tom@novtan.bio.u-szeged.hu) joined #forth 09:14:57 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@h000094d30ba2.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 09:14:57 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Herkamire 09:16:06 --- quit: Herkamire (Client Quit) 09:21:57 --- quit: warpzero ("Tried to warn you about Chino and Daddy Gee, but I can't seem to get to you through the U.S. Mail.") 10:13:07 --- join: I4404__ (~mark4@216-110-82-203.gen.twtelecom.net) joined #forth 10:29:31 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 10:51:32 --- quit: mur (Remote closed the connection) 10:52:04 --- join: mur (~mur@smtp.uiah.fi) joined #forth 10:52:09 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@66-74-218-202.san.rr.com) joined #forth 10:52:18 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja 11:11:59 --- nick: I4404__ -> I4404 11:12:25 --- nick: I4404 -> I440r 11:12:25 --- mode: ChanServ set +o I440r 11:12:25 --- join: slava (~slava@CPE00096ba44261-CM000e5cdfda14.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 11:15:51 re slava 11:16:21 --- join: warpzero (~warpzero@mi240.dn189.umontana.edu) joined #forth 11:27:55 --- join: mur_ (~mur@kyberias.uiah.fi) joined #forth 11:29:57 I'm off to lunch. Back in about an hour or two. 11:31:31 --- join: Sonarman (~matt@adsl-67-113-234-222.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 11:39:11 --- quit: mur (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 11:46:55 --- join: fridge (~fridge@dsl-220-253-73-190.NSW.netspace.net.au) joined #forth 11:57:07 hi fridge 12:34:21 --- join: mur (~mur@uiah.fi) joined #forth 12:37:20 --- quit: mur_ (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 12:38:59 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 12:45:53 --- join: futhin (futhin@64.114.152.29) joined #forth 12:45:54 --- mode: ChanServ set +o futhin 13:03:01 * TomasuDlrrp is back (gone 09:12:04) 13:03:06 --- nick: TomasuDlrrp -> Tomasu 13:04:02 Back 13:04:32 hi kc5tja 13:04:44 hi kc5tja 13:04:52 how are you coding your forth these days? 13:04:58 using vi/gforth or what? 13:05:34 kc5tja, there is a #factor channel now btw, you should idle there :) 13:06:13 futhin: I used vim to write vibe for gforth. Inside gforth, I use vibe. 13:06:33 slava: Hehe, cool. :) 13:07:13 kc5tja: what are you mainly using to code your Forth FTL/Forth or whatever its called i forget 13:07:34 futhin: Although for the Kestrel emulator, I just used vim and gforth together, but I keep my sources heavily organized in rigid structure. 13:07:48 ah 13:07:50 FTS/Forth is written using VIBE. 13:08:16 As is the FTS/Forth Cross Compiler. 13:09:10 Damn, speaking of which, I REALLY need to update my website. It's WAY behind. :( 13:09:25 And I need to work on my resume too. :/ 13:10:36 you know, trying to figure out how to get hello world in a language you dont know is like trying to say hello world in dutch in china :p 13:20:58 s" Hello world" 13:21:05 or rather 13:21:08 ." Hello world" 13:21:12 that wont work in prolog :p 13:21:20 its impl dependent 13:21:22 i finally figured out how to terminate input 13:21:23 some prologs have 'print'. 13:21:25 a . 13:21:25 :p 13:21:37 "Hello world" . ( if your language rocks more ) 13:21:41 you know prolog? 13:21:44 yes 13:21:52 well i'm no expert but i know the basics 13:21:54 whats the learning curve? 13:22:06 if you understand propositional logic, not very steep at all 13:22:08 its quite a simple language 13:22:18 except the execution model is very different from your typical imperitive or functinal lang 13:22:25 can it be compared to forth? 13:22:31 not really 13:22:33 hmm 13:22:39 the internet has all the answers 13:22:41 it has garbage collection, data types, etc 13:22:46 all languages can be learned in 10 hours 13:22:50 enough to punch out a hello world in any known language, at least 13:22:57 --- join: mur_ (~mur@smtp.uiah.fi) joined #forth 13:23:04 well its a mandatory language for the study 13:23:05 its closer to lisp than forth 13:23:07 therefore prolog = 10 hours 13:24:04 futhin: I thought it was 24, all the books say "$LANG in 24 hours" 13:24:15 24 hours if you're dumb :) 13:24:21 but seriously those books are worthless 13:24:31 'learn java in 24 hours' was one that i looked at,... worthless 13:24:40 its more like 'write a hello world applet in 24 hours' 13:24:42 its true! 13:24:50 for varying definitions of 'learn' 13:25:29 ahh, I should stop reading this book, it's too depressing 13:25:45 everything is depressing 13:25:46 lol 13:26:02 my headache is finally put down 13:26:05 need a noddy colouring in book to cheer me up 13:26:17 stupid painkilers finally working, after only about 6 hours 13:26:39 thats a slow uptake 13:26:45 need IV 13:26:55 ohwell 13:27:04 i swear, compuserve, evil. 13:27:33 I haven't heard of them for ages 13:27:45 from BBS days 13:27:50 i didnt know they were still alive 13:27:55 but appearantly they're like a weed 13:28:02 now cooperating with aol (eep) 13:28:12 but they had the best adsl offer i could find 13:28:38 thing is 13:28:42 the connection is fine 13:28:45 Hi 13:28:52 and worked instantly, even one day before i was promised it would work 13:29:04 without any software, except for the modem obviously 13:29:15 problem comes when you want to alter some account details 13:29:27 you are FORCED to install their fucking software, browser and what not 13:29:27 don't alter any account details then 13:29:34 =D 13:29:46 this CRAP installs some fucking fake aol lan adapter 13:29:54 eep 13:29:56 uninstall the software etc 13:30:00 i had to, my mom requested additional email accounts 13:30:07 no no wait it gets worse 13:30:08 kids 13:30:16 qFox: reinstalling windows is your friend 13:30:26 so i told her to install it on her computer (internet goes thru a server, over lan) 13:30:33 Look, thin is futhin again. 13:30:44 she had 98 (yes, had.) 13:30:49 the software installs 13:30:53 thin == futhin? 13:30:54 and fucks it ALLLLLLL up to hell 13:31:04 Robert: but Robert isn't robert again :( 13:31:11 i miss robert :( 13:31:13 futhin: You mean rob_ert? 13:31:16 for some dark misterious reason, i could ping any internet location from windows (command box) 13:31:17 oh yeah 13:31:18 rob_ert! 13:31:30 man its been so long since i've seen that fella 13:31:35 i wonder what happened to him 13:31:36 but whenever windows was trying to internet it wouldnt 13:31:37 I am Robert on the nets where Robert is taken. ;) 13:31:50 so compuserve is suck. 13:31:51 These days only EFnet. 13:31:53 taken by force? 13:32:03 fridge: Right... 13:32:05 nah he likes it that way 13:32:05 :p 13:32:24 * Robert pets qFox. 13:32:30 so anyways 13:32:45 i dont get it at all. the internet connection i have now isnt even compuserve. its tiscali 13:32:45 Shit, I'm tired. Reading "Out of the silent planet" while listening to War of the worlds. :D Sci-fi night. 13:32:55 --- quit: mur (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 13:32:56 war of the worlds. o_0 13:33:14 on midnight, on the 12th of october... 13:33:15 or something 13:33:18 :D 13:33:36 i actually had lyrics for that :p 13:33:45 or rather, my mom had 13:34:07 It's good 13:34:21 And without IRC I wouldn't know about it. SEE. IRC IS GOOD FOR YOU. 13:34:27 lol 13:34:44 i'm not sure how war of the worlds is actually good for you 13:35:21 irc is good for you? what? where? 13:35:26 * futhin looks around for any signs 13:35:26 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@h000094d30ba2.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 13:35:26 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Herkamire 13:35:30 hi Herkamire 13:35:38 it keeps the kids off crack 13:35:39 yay herkamire 13:35:56 i'm on irc to chat 13:35:59 now i got someone to chat with 13:36:02 if herkamire doesn't idle 13:36:03 :P 13:36:24 i could code forth but i'd have to get off the net 13:36:28 Idling is also good for you. 13:36:29 (dialup with limited amount of time) 13:36:42 i didn't connect w/ screen/irssi this time 13:36:45 :/ 13:36:54 * Robert always does... 13:37:02 (and yes, screen/irssi runs on this box ;) 13:37:05 yeah well i wanted a change 13:37:33 robert, whats your feeling about irc 13:37:40 if you used windows that would not have been ... the problem ;) 13:37:43 do you have a love/hate relationship with it? 13:38:19