00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.08.23 00:00:30 --- join: mur (~mur@kyberias.uiah.fi) joined #forth 00:21:41 --- join: mur_ (~mur@kyberias.uiah.fi) joined #forth 00:33:08 --- quit: mur (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 01:47:52 --- quit: mur_ (Remote closed the connection) 01:48:36 --- join: mur (~mur@kyberias.uiah.fi) joined #forth 02:02:39 --- quit: crc (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 02:21:25 --- join: mur_ (~mur@smtp.uiah.fi) joined #forth 02:25:59 --- join: Topaz (~top@spc1-horn1-6-0-cust117.cosh.broadband.ntl.com) joined #forth 02:36:48 --- quit: mur (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 02:47:10 * Tomasu is away: dlrrp 02:47:17 --- nick: Tomasu -> TomasuDlrrp 03:23:50 --- quit: lyca (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 03:23:50 --- quit: I440r (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 03:23:50 --- quit: Teratogen (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 03:24:15 --- join: Teratogen (~leontopod@intertwingled.net) joined #forth 03:24:15 --- join: I440r (~mark4@216-110-82-59.gen.twtelecom.net) joined #forth 03:24:15 --- join: lyca (alycat@rasterburn.org) joined #forth 03:24:57 --- quit: I440r (Excess Flood) 03:25:14 --- join: I440r (~mark4@216-110-82-59.gen.twtelecom.net) joined #forth 05:34:48 --- log: started forth/04.08.23 05:34:48 --- join: clog (nef@bespin.org) joined #forth 05:34:48 --- topic: 'FORTH programming language. Info: http://forth.bespin.org/resources/introduction ANSI: http://www.taygeta.com/forth/dpans.htm FIG83: http://forth.sourceforge.net/standard/fst83/ Links: http://members.dsl-only.net/~loophog || Note: this chan is publicly logged.' 05:34:48 --- topic: set by kc5tja on [Tue Aug 17 09:41:17 2004] 05:34:48 --- names: list (clog mur tathi Fractal cmeme I440r lyca Teratogen madgarden ianp warpzero OrngeTide skylan Robert TomasuDlrrp aphasia onetom titanstar @ChanServ) 05:57:18 --- join: Topaz (~top@spc1-horn1-6-0-cust117.cosh.broadband.ntl.com) joined #forth 06:28:16 --- join: I440r_ (~mark4@216-110-82-203.gen.twtelecom.net) joined #forth 06:28:45 --- join: mur_ (~mur@uiah.fi) joined #forth 06:32:10 --- join: snowrichard (~richard@adsl-068-209-159-248.sip.shv.bellsouth.net) joined #forth 06:37:37 --- quit: mur (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 06:45:38 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving") 07:03:34 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 07:30:12 --- join: mur (~mur@kyberias.uiah.fi) joined #forth 07:42:16 --- quit: mur_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 07:51:55 --- join: madwork__ (~madgarden@derby.metrics.com) joined #forth 07:52:01 --- nick: madwork__ -> madwork 07:57:59 --- join: FlamingRain (Ecoder@c-24-129-95-254.se.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 08:06:23 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 08:06:52 --- quit: tathi (Client Quit) 08:07:26 --- quit: OrngeTide ("gone") 08:10:49 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@h000094d30ba2.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 08:10:49 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Herkamire 08:19:07 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 09:04:27 --- quit: I440r_ ("Leaving") 09:07:46 --- join: FlamingRain_ (Ecoder@c-24-129-95-254.se.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 09:07:53 --- quit: FlamingRain (Connection reset by peer) 09:11:35 --- quit: mur (Remote closed the connection) 09:12:08 --- join: mur (~mur@uiah.fi) joined #forth 09:21:48 --- join: I440r_ (~mark4@216-110-82-203.gen.twtelecom.net) joined #forth 09:25:53 --- quit: FlamingRain_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 09:37:46 --- quit: I440r_ ("brb") 09:44:56 --- join: I440r_ (~mark4@216-110-82-203.gen.twtelecom.net) joined #forth 09:52:02 --- join: FlamingRain (~Ecoder@c-24-129-95-254.se.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 10:20:53 --- join: qFox (~fdsacx@82-169-140-229-mx.xdsl.tiscali.nl) joined #forth 10:21:05 heeeeeello 10:22:49 Robert! 10:23:07 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 10:35:43 --- quit: Teratogen ("SKYKING, SKYKING, DO NOT ANSWER") 10:42:25 --- join: SDO (~SDO@67-23-111-213.clspco.adelphia.net) joined #forth 10:47:21 --- join: mur_ (~mur@uiah.fi) joined #forth 10:49:46 --- quit: warpzero (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 10:57:17 --- join: warpzero (~warpzero@mi025.dn191.umontana.edu) joined #forth 10:58:40 --- quit: FlamingRain ("Leaving") 10:59:15 --- quit: mur (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 11:41:53 --- join: ADD-101 (XINU@12-222-128-22.client.insightBB.com) joined #forth 11:50:08 --- quit: qFox (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 11:53:22 --- join: qFox (~fdsacx@82-169-140-229-mx.xdsl.tiscali.nl) joined #forth 11:53:24 --- join: warp0b00 (~warpzero@mi170.dn177.umontana.edu) joined #forth 11:54:56 has anyone talked with add-101 ? 11:55:02 is that a bot or a person ? 11:56:28 i was beginning to think everyone died or something :p 11:56:52 qFox: we just don't want to talk to you :p 11:56:56 sigh 11:56:59 i am ghosted 11:57:00 :'( 11:57:06 --- quit: warpzero (Nick collision from services.) 11:57:08 I440r_> maybe 'nother logger? 11:57:13 maybe 11:57:15 --- nick: warp0b00 -> warpzero 11:57:18 (whois) 11:57:28 no objections, but i'd like to know heh 11:58:09 maybe you ask him nicely ;) 11:58:19 o_0 herk is op, hadnt noticed that before 11:58:45 lol 11:58:53 me either lol. wonder how taht happned :P 11:59:13 qFox: Hi : 11:59:23 think thin did that the other night... 11:59:24 Robert!!! 11:59:31 ya 11:59:40 figured it would have been thin 11:59:40 Hoe gaat het met jou, old forther? ;) 11:59:47 i'm fine. kuf is not 11:59:48 :) 11:59:52 Who 11:59:53 ? 11:59:54 btw... i DO hope everyone here knows... this is MY CHANNEL!!!! 11:59:56 Oh. The Forth. 11:59:57 thin stole it :P 12:00:01 haw 12:00:16 for which he is constantly paying :) hehe 12:00:18 Robert> yeah, i clocked it and its much much too slow 12:00:21 I440r_: Yes, yes.. We also know you are the _real_ inventor of Forth, computers, electricity and the universe. 12:00:34 lol 12:00:38 qFox: Hah, I'm not suprised. 12:00:46 well i expected some loss of speed 12:00:49 but this was drastic 12:00:53 Oh, like wat? 12:00:54 what 12:00:57 robert and dont you forget it! 12:01:05 you forgot "the internet" 12:01:07 I440r_: Never :) 12:01:08 : test 100000 for next ; 12:01:09 Hehe 12:01:24 differed a few zero's 12:01:26 for same speed 12:01:46 qfox isforth doesnt use next for for/next loops, i think the word "NEXT" has special meaning in forths threading mechanism so i called it for/nxt 12:01:48 dont know exact, would have to check (this on a 200mhz laptop btw) 12:02:18 I440r_> F had it, so he'll know what i meant. i added it to kuF as well since its the same as 0 do loop 12:02:31 --- quit: SDO (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 12:02:48 oh and i dont know about next tbh.. 12:03:20 brb. 2k updates. 12:03:39 --- nick: I440r_ -> I440r 12:06:20 --- quit: qFox (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 12:07:07 --- join: qFox (~fdsacx@82-169-140-229-mx.xdsl.tiscali.nl) joined #forth 12:07:38 --- join: FlamingRain (Ecoder@c-24-129-95-254.se.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 12:09:11 so anyways 12:10:04 anyone want to help me creating a windows program that runs some code and can communicate with a mysql server 12:10:23 i can tell you exactly what it should do, its not very big 12:10:34 I'm not a databaser. 12:10:36 the only way i can do it though is via mircscripting, and thats slow as suck 12:10:44 I ONLY DO USELESS THINGS. 12:10:53 this can be considered useless. but i want it 12:11:14 Hmm... 12:11:20 Not useless enough, sorry. 12:11:27 it needs to do a bunch of queries and insert a new record for each of the bunch including information returned from the queries 12:11:36 for about 2million records, in this case 12:11:53 which is going to be.... >32bit integer 12:13:15 also, i need some program that actually WILL accept a >2gig file as source to enter new records into the database, but i'm sure there are a bunch of apps out there (now i have internet again) 12:16:00 What are you going to do? 12:17:13 another interest of mine 12:17:17 solving boardgames 12:17:42 the records are moves and games of a Connect4 game (4 in a row, where you drop from the top) 12:18:12 Ah. 12:18:29 I just happend to read about that earlier today. 12:18:34 (solving games) 12:18:39 well i'm half way 12:18:43 But, uhm, you're using SQL for that? 12:18:50 i recoded the finding of solutions code 12:18:53 this time in forth 12:19:08 (i've done it in mirc, javascript, python (half), c++ and now forth :) 12:19:22 but when i started the project i underestimated the results 12:19:33 for a 4x4 playing board, there are... 12:19:49 \ Moves: 139251445 Games: 47264672 12:19:49 \ Wins: 7574013 Draws: 39690659 12:19:49 \ Player 1 wins: 3825728 Player 2 wins: 3748285 12:19:58 and this number grows exponentially 12:20:48 so anyways i have the forth code now that finds all the games (meaning a win,loose or draw situation) and logs these to a file 12:20:54 or whatever i want to do with it 12:21:25 now i've added them to the database (3x5, because thats "only" about 600.000 games) 12:21:43 the database makes it a lot easier to do the win/loose crunching 12:22:15 Solve a 100x100 gomoku game. 12:22:22 never heard of it 12:22:28 i've started on checkers today 12:22:57 anyways 12:23:03 --- quit: FlamingRain ("Leaving") 12:23:05 Never heard of gomoku? What kind of a minix user are you, gomoku is the only good game in Minix :P 12:23:12 i'm not a minix user. 12:23:14 5-in-a-row 12:23:15 BAH 12:23:16 --- quit: ADD-101 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 12:23:17 right 12:23:23 same rules as connect4 otherwise 12:23:24 ? 12:23:30 or more like tictactoe? 12:23:52 Tictactoe. 12:23:52 the purpose, anyways, of this project is two goals 12:24:10 one, create an artificial intelligence that bases his moves purely on the odds of winning 12:24:29 i just want to see whether it can be a reasonable opponent 12:24:51 (two modes, one with all the possible games, and one with the "stupid" moves weeded out) 12:25:21 the other goal is to actually solve the game, as in, being able to force a win for either side, and/or a draw for either side 12:25:52 mind you, connect4 is already solved, but this computing should be able to find all and any ways to force a win 12:26:10 well, once i get some help with the mysql code 12:26:16 Hrm. 12:26:29 Maybe I should write something like that, without the SQL part though :P 12:26:32 i once let my computer run for a week on dedicated doscode trying to get all the 6x7 games 12:26:37 after a week it still wasnt done 12:26:41 1.6ghz! 12:27:06 at the time i didnt realize that 32bit integers would not be sufficient for the counters anyways :p 12:27:12 :D 12:28:02 i ran the mircscript for over a day, and it managed to crunch about 10% of the total moves 12:28:10 but i am afraid the bottleneck is my mysql server 12:28:14 and not so much mirc 12:28:54 also, there's still a memmory leak in my mysql-mirc dll, which consumed 300mb of ram after about 30 hours, so it would never have survived 10 days anyhow 12:30:24 want to see the forth code for it btw? :) 12:30:39 Forth code for solving..? 12:30:40 its... well it could be much better i guess 12:30:53 no this just finds all the valid games for connect four 12:31:19 (kind of a tree search algorithm) 12:31:51 needs some optimization at the point where it tries to check for a win situation though 12:31:56 tricky shit 12:32:21 I wonder how complex the gomoku solver can get. 12:32:39 (you need to check horizontal, vertical and both diagonals, but you only really need to check 3 tiles before and after your move, since anything else does not matter for your move) 12:32:44 ehm 12:32:45 not really 12:32:49 i've done tic tac toe 12:32:54 (about 300.000 games) 12:33:16 if i can find the code for it, i'm quite sure i coded it so the dimensions can be adjusted 12:33:40 although if i remember correctly, the checking for a win was hardcoded 12:33:48 Hehe 12:33:56 say, is that game 5x5 grid? 12:33:59 Well, I'm not sure how to "backtrace" a win. 12:34:05 per default? or can it vary? 12:34:18 what do you mean by backtrace 12:34:28 So the "AI" knows what to do on a certain board configuration. 12:34:39 well 12:34:44 thats where the database comes in handy 12:34:54 Just something like... "if I do this I have a * chance of winning"? 12:34:55 see with these types of boardgames you can name each mvoe 12:34:57 move 12:35:12 like for connect4 its a string containing the slots used per move 12:35:27 read this as single digits, representing the slot used to throw in the piece 12:35:33 1232234233 12:35:46 so the first player threw in slot 1, the opponent in slot 2, etc 12:35:57 this creates a unique name for each move 12:36:20 Doesn't that get terribly slow? I was thinking about just having a fixed ID number for each configuration. 12:36:35 (in fact, the total games, if you're not checking for a move, are all the variations of the sequence xxyyzz 12:36:52 this is a fixed id for each configuration 12:37:02 i think you're still underestimating the number of configurations 12:37:18 just imagine, for tictactoe, there are 300.000 ways of playing the game 12:37:58 (this is without taking into account that 4 games of those are the same, except a quarter or half turned...) 12:39:07 anyways 12:39:24 Bah. 12:39:27 all the moves can be called by a unique name 12:39:33 just the order of placing 12:39:50 Just use "reasonable" moves then. 12:40:02 like "1" would represent the game with 1 move, where you threw in slot 1 (for connect4) 12:40:08 reasonable moves? no such thing. 12:40:17 In gomoku there is ;) 12:40:21 no serious 12:40:28 But for a complete solution, no. 12:40:31 this is much much easier. 12:40:35 and faster 12:40:38 Uhm, OK. 12:40:43 you can eliminate stupid moves afterwards 12:40:50 using the database and certain queries 12:40:55 Connect4 is "a little" simpler though, right? 12:41:04 no actually way not 12:41:20 see for tictactoe, you can use any place in the board, right 12:41:24 (and your game as well) 12:41:30 for connect4, you can only drop in the top 12:41:37 but it will fall down 12:41:56 Yes? That limits the possible number of moves. 12:42:00 so first you have to check how many collumns are still free to drop in 12:42:01 How many rows are there ? 12:42:09 hmmmm like that 12:42:28 i guess it limits it slightly yes, opposed to your game 12:42:34 but the dutch default game is 6x7 12:42:37 no 7x6 12:42:46 7 width, 6 high 12:42:54 ; 7^6 12:42:54 117649 12:42:59 hehe 12:43:00 Wouldn't it be something like that? 12:43:02 you'd think that 12:43:03 Hmm... 12:43:11 no its every permuation of this sequence: 12:43:12 Actually, you have to fill them all. 12:43:21 111111122222223333333444444455555556666666 12:43:31 --- join: mur (~mur@smtp.uiah.fi) joined #forth 12:43:32 every permutation of that string 12:43:46 minus all the invalid permuations (moves after someone won) 12:43:52 which is i think about 10% 12:44:38 permutations is the mathematical thing, and even though i passed the exam covering that subject with an 8, i cant bring myself to trying to get this figure 12:44:38 OK, a few more then. 12:44:43 yes, a few. 12:44:45 :p 12:44:58 we're talking >32bit 12:45:03 at least. 12:45:11 ; 42! 12:45:11 1405006117752879898543142606244511569936384000000000 12:45:13 wait let me show you 12:45:20 You can do that with DEEP THOUGH. 12:45:25 THOUGHT* 12:45:35 thats a checkers program right? 12:45:39 or is it chess 12:45:40 no i believe that 42! wasnt correct either 12:45:44 Nah, connect-4 12:45:45 no this is for connect4 12:45:52 my checkers code isnt done yet 12:46:08 having a bit of trouble with finding the total number of moves 12:46:12 qFox: Why not? 12:46:14 qfox ya wanna check out my legal moves generator for the checkers program i was writing :) 12:46:24 ill write it up for ya sometime 12:46:35 its table driven 12:46:37 Robert> here... 12:46:45 \ 2x2: Moves: 18 Games: 6 12:46:45 \ 2x3: Moves: 68 Games: 20 12:46:45 \ 2x4: Moves: 250 Games: 70 12:46:48 \ 2x5: Moves: 922 Games: 252 12:46:48 btw, about backups... 12:46:50 \ 2x6: Moves: 3430 Games: 924 12:46:52 \ 2x7: Moves: 12868 Games: 3432 12:46:55 \ 2x8: Moves: 48618 Games: 12870 12:46:59 \ 2x9: Moves: 184754 Games: 48620 12:47:02 \ 3x2: Moves: 270 Games: 90 12:47:02 \ 3x3: Moves: 5247 Games: 1680 12:47:02 \ 3x4: Moves: 110250 Games: 34650 12:47:05 \ 3x5: Moves: 2435199 Games: 756756 12:47:07 \ 3x6: Moves: 55621566 Games: 17153136 12:47:10 \ 4x2: Moves: 7364 Games: 2520 12:47:11 My school recommends _printing_ code and deleting it from the hard drive to save storage :D 12:47:14 \ 4x3: Moves: 1107696 Games: 369600 12:47:17 \ 4x4: Moves: 191448940 Games: 63063000 12:47:26 try to get the games figure 12:47:44 lol 12:48:18 I440r> well. this code first generates all the legal games (win, loss, draw) 12:48:29 the checkers game will use the same method 12:49:07 qfox err thats not practical for checkers OR chess 12:49:13 qFox: Why is (x*y)! wrong? 12:49:13 the second part was adding all the games to a database, and creating statistical table of all the MOVES (that includes all the games) and for each move the numbero of wins,losses and draws that move could end up with 12:49:44 I440r> well, why's that? 12:50:07 i cant do statistical data on the fly, unless i have a huge amount of memmory, and i dont 12:50:12 the tree would fill up your 5000000 gig drive 12:50:14 not the huge number i'm gonna need 12:50:32 thats what i said 12:50:42 this code only computes the games 12:50:48 so a string of moves 12:50:57 nothing else, yet 12:51:08 oh wait, and the outcome (win,loose,draw, for the first player) 12:51:24 and that can be done very efficiently (binary) 12:51:53 sure the result will still be gigabytes, but i've managed to limit the games of a chckers game to max of 150moves per game 12:52:38 it wont cover everything accurate, but i dont want to mess with trying to get rid of infinite moves (highly possible when both sides have only kings left) 12:53:01 so i let a game be rumise by default when both sides have no normal pieces left 12:53:12 hence the max was 150 moves (both players combined) 12:53:19 ehr, i think 12:53:33 or just one player 12:54:05 * qFox thinks he already made up for not typing in here the past month 12:54:07 ^^ 12:54:11 --- quit: mur_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 12:54:51 i once made a list of games i wanted to solve some day 12:54:54 lets see 12:56:51 tictactoe (done that), connect4, othello, dots, battleships, minesweeper (although i gave that some thought and dont think its feaseable), patience (same, due to exchanging cards you can get stupid unneccsary moves), solitair (not cardgame, the peg game), hex, hexagon, set 12:57:50 http://www.ezresult.com/article/Solved_board_games 12:59:02 also, there's a million dollar prize on proving that solving a minesweeper game is or is not a NP problem ;) 12:59:12 but i'm not going to bother about that too much 13:00:54 ah 13:00:56 here; http://www.claymath.org/Popular_Lectures/Minesweeper/ 13:01:03 very nice article about it 13:04:23 oh yeah, and Robert, i remember now. taking the faculty ! of the total number of squares of the board was not valid, because every move there were only WIDTH possibles, not WIDTH*HEIGHT 13:05:12 WIDTH! is incorrect as well (i'll explain if you care) 13:05:34 --- join: FlamingRain (~Ecoder@c-24-129-95-254.se.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 13:05:49 25! is valid for your game though, i believe 13:06:48 (keep in mind though that the board is perfectly rotatable, so 4 games that look the same, are the same, but turned) 13:07:53 Hmm.. I se3e. 13:07:54 see 13:08:27 i did try to come up with a valid formula but gave up after a while 13:09:31 should be a relatively easy mathemathical formula though, involving faculty and binomials (or something) 13:16:10 :) 13:20:03 --- join: newbirds (~thomasjeg@159-134-98-140.bas1.srl.dublin.eircom.net) joined #forth 13:26:26 --- part: newbirds left #forth 15:21:28 --- log: started forth/04.08.23 15:21:28 --- join: clog (nef@bespin.org) joined #forth 15:21:28 --- topic: 'FORTH programming language. Info: http://forth.bespin.org/resources/introduction ANSI: http://www.taygeta.com/forth/dpans.htm FIG83: http://forth.sourceforge.net/standard/fst83/ Links: http://members.dsl-only.net/~loophog || Note: this chan is publicly logged.' 15:21:28 --- topic: set by kc5tja on [Tue Aug 17 09:41:17 2004] 15:21:28 --- names: list (clog FlamingRain qFox mur_ @kc5tja slava doublec warpzero I440r tathi @Herkamire madwork Topaz @ChanServ Fractal cmeme lyca titanstar onetom aphasia Tomasu Robert skylan ianp madgarden) 15:21:54 hey kc 15:23:14 re 15:24:38 hows it going 15:24:57 I'm tired 15:25:26 im hungry 15:25:48 * kc5tja has been working on FTS/Forth a bit today, but mostly, just randomly browsing the web. 15:27:54 kc5tja> could you build a small windows app for me, it needs to query a mysql database 15:28:33 qFox: I don't have Windows, nor any development environment for it. 15:28:40 i have the code in script, functioning, but its mircscript and obviously too slow for this purpose (2million records to be inserted, many more queries to be made before that) 15:28:50 worth a shot :p 15:31:49 hi kc5tja, qFox 15:33:47 qFox: use a decent OS and this stuff would be easy 15:34:03 and you wouldn't have to spend hundreds on the software you need to do simple programming 15:34:14 what do you mean, spend? 15:34:31 fine, you wouldn't need to violate copyrights 15:34:38 right 15:35:31 kc5tja: bummer about the kestrel dying 15:36:07 kc5tja: is the CPU a major part of that expense? 15:36:51 kc5tja: does switching to an existing RISC make it cheaper? or just more the sort of power you'd expect for a computer that price? or... 15:38:26 no. 15:38:50 The use of FPGAs in any way, shape, or form will cost me big-time. 15:39:24 Switching to an existing RISC architecture does make it cheaper -- one less FPGA I have to use. 15:40:04 If I don't use FPGAs, I have to have gargantuan PC boards, which actually costs *more* than the FPGAs because of surface area. 15:40:41 I found out that when a mfr specs out an FPGA at $13 each, they mean in quantities of 250,000. 15:40:59 (and in a BGA package too, probably) 15:41:05 Topaz: Nope. 15:41:09 quad flat-pack. 15:41:16 ah, heh, doable 15:41:22 (but not the volume issue, heh 15:41:28 I heard that soldering BGAs is actually quite possible if you have a modern toaster oven. 15:41:44 (one with digital temperature control) 15:42:01 ah, yeah, i've heard of people doing that 15:42:08 but i guess they're easier to get wrong (permanently) than most 15:42:17 and impossible to check for shorts unless you happen to own an xray 15:42:35 (a friend of mine worked at a mfr once xraying BGAs all day) 15:43:31 That's why I like that MIPS processor -- 128 pins, quad flatpack, $23 in quantities of one. :) 15:44:17 i hate people who claim all mainstream music sucks 15:44:45 i have rather random music preferences 15:46:25 I also spoke with Martin Richards, inventor of BCPL and of Tripos, and he told me that there'd be no legal issues with adopting Tripos to my own designs. 15:53:33 all mainstream music sucks 15:56:19 damn. i lied, with no succes. 15:56:30 Hehe 16:01:20 --- quit: FlamingRain ("Leaving") 16:06:51 --- quit: mur_ (Remote closed the connection) 16:07:24 --- join: mur (~mur@uiah.fi) joined #forth 16:08:10 gonna take a long nap. nite :) 16:08:26 --- quit: qFox ("meh ircii's netsplit detection appearantly sux ^^") 16:16:22 * Tomasu is away: away 16:27:01 --- join: FlamingRain (Ecoder@c-24-129-95-254.se.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 16:28:13 * Tomasu is away: but bullwinkle that trick neverworks, this time for sure! 16:31:03 --- join: mur_ (~mur@uiah.fi) joined #forth 16:43:31 --- quit: mur (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 16:48:15 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 16:50:08 --- quit: Topaz ("Leaving") 16:54:03 --- quit: FlamingRain ("Leaving") 17:06:55 --- join: I440r_ (~mark4@216-110-82-59.gen.twtelecom.net) joined #forth 17:11:57 argh tathi left! 17:12:00 dammit 17:12:03 lol 17:13:07 hey 17:13:19 ya ? 17:17:09 --- quit: I440r_ ("Leaving") 17:17:30 --- join: I440r_ (~mark4@216-110-82-59.gen.twtelecom.net) joined #forth 17:17:46 oopts.. wrong button 17:17:51 hehe 17:26:29 slava you there ? 17:27:51 yes 17:28:12 wanna see if i can figure some more of isforth-fbsd out ? 17:28:26 i know one place thats definatly wrong 17:28:37 sure. 17:28:46 tathi and i discovered it in his ppc version and i know fbsd will have the same problem 17:29:52 ok 1 min 17:44:55 --- join: arke (~Chris@wbar8.lax1-4-11-100-111.dsl-verizon.net) joined #forth 17:46:31 hi 17:46:32 kc5tja: hey 17:46:35 kc5tja: check email :) 17:58:17 --- join: FlamingRain (~Ecoder@c-24-129-95-254.se.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 18:08:54 * Tomasu is back (gone 01:40:41) 18:11:07 --- join: mur (~mur@mgw2.uiah.fi) joined #forth 18:11:55 --- join: Sonarman (~matt@adsl-64-160-167-67.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 18:12:17 hi Sonarman 18:14:12 hi 18:15:34 --- quit: FlamingRain ("Leaving") 18:23:10 --- quit: mur_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 18:29:18 --- quit: warpzero ("Tried to warn you about Chino and Daddy Gee, but I can't seem to get to you through the U.S. Mail.") 18:43:49 --- quit: doublec ("Leaving") 18:44:13 hidey ho 19:00:02 --- join: warpzero (~warpzero@dsl.103.mt.onewest.net) joined #forth 19:00:33 --- join: kc5tja_ (~kc5tja@66-74-218-202.san.rr.com) joined #forth 19:03:39 hidey hey 19:09:49 Crap. I fell asleep. 19:11:37 --- quit: kc5tja (Nick collision from services.) 19:11:45 --- nick: kc5tja_ -> kc5tja 19:12:10 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja 19:56:59 OK, here -- can anyone tell me why I should not use a very high-speed, IEEE-488 interface for creating a video display? 19:57:57 The idea is that the only thing that would go over the interface is image changes. 20:00:44 kc5tja: cool 20:01:34 Since the Kestrel's specs are now unconstrained by price, I'm thinking of exploring this solution a bit more, where the video RAM and system RAM are two different things. Indeed, such an arrangement would permit one to create video cards for the Kestrel too, and the system software wouldn't really need to change all that much, if at all, since the protocol used between the card and the host system is somewhat VNC-like. 20:05:06 hehehe cooool 20:09:18 it occured to me that if the OS can do full-track buffering of a disk, it should equally be able to treat the video display frame buffer as a (really fast) disk storage device, and to scan-line buffering if it needed to. 20:09:31 hi kc5tja 20:09:59 Howdy 20:11:45 Damn, I really need to update my website. 20:12:03 * kc5tja has simply been so burnt/wiped out recently 20:14:56 --- quit: warpzero ("Tried to warn you about Chino and Daddy Gee, but I can't seem to get to you through the U.S. Mail.") 20:29:43 --- join: warpzero (~warpzero@dsl.103.mt.onewest.net) joined #forth 20:37:54 --- quit: arke (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 20:37:54 --- quit: madgarden (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 20:37:54 --- quit: ianp (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 20:37:56 --- quit: Sonarman (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 20:38:04 --- quit: ChanServ (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 20:38:04 --- quit: lyca (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 20:38:05 --- quit: warpzero (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 20:38:05 --- quit: mur (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 20:38:05 --- quit: Herkamire (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 20:38:05 --- quit: cmeme (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 20:38:05 --- quit: madwork (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 20:38:06 --- quit: onetom (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 20:38:06 --- quit: aphasia (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 20:38:07 --- quit: Tomasu (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 20:38:07 --- quit: skylan (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 20:38:07 --- quit: titanstar (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 20:38:07 --- quit: Robert (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 20:38:27 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth 20:38:27 --- join: warpzero (~warpzero@dsl.103.mt.onewest.net) joined #forth 20:38:27 --- join: Sonarman (~matt@adsl-64-160-167-67.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 20:38:27 --- join: mur (~mur@mgw2.uiah.fi) joined #forth 20:38:27 --- join: madwork (~madgarden@derby.metrics.com) joined #forth 20:38:27 --- join: cmeme (~cmeme@216.184.11.30.unused.swcp.com) joined #forth 20:38:27 --- join: lyca (alycat@rasterburn.org) joined #forth 20:38:27 --- join: skylan (~sjh@vickesh01-4677.tbaytel.net) joined #forth 20:38:27 --- join: Robert (~snofs@c-bf5a71d5.17-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) joined #forth 20:38:27 --- join: Tomasu (~moose@S010600045a4c73cc.ed.shawcable.net) joined #forth 20:38:27 --- join: aphasia (d@ip-65-75-40-47.ct.gemini.ntplx.com) joined #forth 20:38:27 --- join: onetom (~tom@novtan.bio.u-szeged.hu) joined #forth 20:38:27 --- join: titanstar (runehol@wirth.ping.uio.no) joined #forth 20:38:27 --- mode: irc.freenode.net set +o ChanServ 20:38:49 --- quit: I440r (Killed by verne.freenode.net (Nick collision)) 20:38:49 --- join: I440r (~mark4@216-110-82-203.gen.twtelecom.net) joined #forth 20:38:53 --- join: arke (~Chris@wbar8.lax1-4-11-100-111.dsl-verizon.net) joined #forth 20:38:53 --- join: madgarden (~madgarden@Toronto-HSE-ppp3706683.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 20:38:53 --- join: ianp (ian@inpuj.net) joined #forth 20:41:17 WOAH! splits 20:48:19 how come (sin x)^2 + (cos x)^2 = 1? 20:48:27 heh 20:48:45 you can prove it with complex numbers and power series i guess 20:48:56 heh... yikes 20:49:38 tathis's help ritht now would be handy 20:53:33 :) 20:59:10 slava u there ? 20:59:56 yes 21:01:14 when i do a syscall foo(x,y,z) the parameters are pushed in z,x,y order right ? 21:01:20 --- join: mur_ (~mur@uiah.fi) joined #forth 21:01:23 erm z,y,x i mean 21:02:36 nevermind i got it :) 21:02:39 don't ask me 21:02:44 oh shit i wanted to ask you something 21:02:47 what's a good book to learn x86 assembly 21:02:56 i want the basics, but also the numeric opcodes and insn formats etc 21:02:58 for writing a compiler 21:11:40 --- quit: mur (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 21:12:16 --- join: arke_ (~chris@wbar8.lax1-4-11-100-111.dsl-verizon.net) joined #forth 21:16:34 --- quit: warpzero ("Tried to warn you about Chino and Daddy Gee, but I can't seem to get to you through the U.S. Mail.") 21:20:53 --- quit: arke ("Leaving") 21:20:56 --- nick: arke_ -> arke 21:35:05 Sonarman: It can be proven through trigonometry easier. 21:35:30 Sonarman: hey .... I'm messing with "moaning on earth" in audacity :P 21:38:11 arke: sweet! :P 21:38:23 kc5tja: cool. how? 21:38:24 Sonarman: yeah :P 21:38:46 arke: what are you doing to it? 21:39:19 Sonarman: adding some effects here and there. I'm also making the bulk of it a little less loud while boosting bass 21:39:33 Sonarman: sounds great ^__^ 21:39:39 arke: make sure you send me your modified version :-) 21:39:49 Sonarman: oh i will :) its better than the original 21:40:03 * Tomasu is away: anime 21:42:24 --- quit: madgarden (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 21:42:24 --- quit: ianp (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 21:44:50 --- join: madgarden (~madgarden@Toronto-HSE-ppp3706683.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 21:44:50 --- join: ianp (ian@inpuj.net) joined #forth 21:45:10 Sonarman: the bass boost gives it a nice touch. Although its not that much of a boost 21:46:00 kc5tja: i'm beginning to see how it could be done 21:46:26 previously i had incorrectly thought that sin x + cos x = 1 21:46:46 arke: i wish i had a subwoofer :) 21:49:37 Sonarman: itll be noticeable without :) 21:49:42 kc5tja: i've got it. thanks for the suggestion :) 21:51:32 Assume a right triangle with an acute angle A. The adjacent side is a, the opposite side is b, and the hypotenuse is c. 21:51:50 : emit ( c --- ) sp@ fd swap 1 2drop ; <-- thats basically the isforth code 21:52:04 compare to the syscall man page for write... 21:52:18 ssize_t write(int fd, const void *buf, size_t count); 21:52:29 it doesnt compute! 21:52:38 or im fubaring something mentally... 21:52:51 but!!! - the code works 21:52:53 how! 21:53:18 it should be sp@ 1 swap fd write by my reconing now 21:53:23 oooh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 21:53:27 yea lol! 21:53:33 stdout IS an fd of 1 21:53:40 so its wrong... but its right :) 21:54:11 HAHA 21:54:11 lol 21:54:37 after sp@ fd swap 1 the stack looks like: ( fd sp 1 ) -- how is that wrong? 21:55:05 the syscall wants FD at top of stack. the address of the char next and then the count 21:55:15 sp@ points to the char thats already on the stack 21:55:19 so theres our buffer address 21:55:41 the definition should be : (emit) sp@ 1 swap fd 2drop ; 21:56:05 the ONLY reason it works is because the count is exactly equal to the file descriptor for stdout lol 21:56:17 oh! 21:56:21 * Sonarman <- slow 21:56:22 :) 21:56:25 hehe 21:56:29 YOUR slow ? 21:56:37 its taken me 2 years to notice that :) 21:56:42 :) 21:58:23 arke: so, how am i going to get a hold of that song? :) 21:58:54 Sonarman: soon enough. 21:59:02 Sonarman: its not that different. yet. 21:59:09 oki 22:00:11 hehe 22:00:16 Sonarman: im making it faster too lol 22:00:53 Doyouheartheecho ofmyterrifiedvoice? 22:01:03 echo too 22:01:03 :) 22:01:07 but not the whole song 22:01:11 that slow part 22:01:18 "the end of mankiiind....forever" 22:01:19 that part 22:01:34 hehehe 22:06:33 --- join: warpzero (~warpzero@dsl.103.mt.onewest.net) joined #forth 22:08:10 --- quit: madgarden (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 22:08:10 --- quit: ianp (sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 22:10:00 --- join: madgarden (~madgarden@Toronto-HSE-ppp3706683.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 22:10:00 --- join: ianp (ian@inpuj.net) joined #forth 22:15:07 --- join: thin (thin@horizon.fasthost.net) joined #forth 22:15:25 hey kc5tja 22:15:51 re 22:16:28 i hear you gave up on K? 22:16:34 because of some patent? :( 22:17:05 No; the K was too expensive, that's what killed it's target market. I couldn't meet the $150 price limit. 22:17:24 The cheapest possible kit I could produce would have costed between $300 and $450. 22:17:45 how come? 22:18:00 what raised the price ? 22:18:10 fuck grr leave 22:18:18 my developer's guide is 46 pages. :) 22:18:24 i'll write a bit more then go to sleep. 22:18:34 thin: Nothing. Electronics components cost a certain amount, and that's that. 22:19:21 What it basically boils down to is low production volumes. 22:19:32 FPGAs are dirt cheap, in quantities of 250K or more. 22:19:33 hmm 22:19:39 But in singles, they're rather expensive. 22:19:42 what if you wren't trying to make it a kit? 22:19:49 what if it was just a box 22:19:57 triple the cost. 22:20:02 for forth or whatever 22:20:05 ah 22:20:21 why triple the cost? 22:20:34 (excuse me, i'm lagged) 22:20:35 Again, low production volumes. 22:20:52 And I'm ignoring start-up/tool-up costs too. 22:21:36 But (a) I would need the get the PCB populated by a production house, and (b) I'd need to pay for custom plastic enclosure, and (c) I'd need to include a power supply. 22:21:56 bleh, so much for K :( 22:22:01 kc5tja: gmail or arrl? 22:22:03 what next? 22:22:22 thin: dolphin. because he cares. 22:22:29 thin: Well, I don't think the K is done for completely. I'm just going to let it rest for a while, and work on FTS/Forth for Linux for a bit. 22:22:37 arke: ? 22:22:53 kc5tja: nevermind. send it to gmail account or arrl account? 22:23:12 arke: Oh. gmail is fine. 22:23:19 ok 22:24:17 --- join: asymptote (~weldon@bgp02689673bgs.flrdav01.dc.comcast.net) joined #forth 22:24:31 Once the FTS/Forth for Linux environment is working, I'm going to try and re-target FTS/Forth for the L4 microkernel environment. 22:24:53 which will be easy with well-factored code :) 22:24:55 kc5tja: sent 22:25:36 arke: OK, just a bit. 22:25:44 --- part: asymptote left #forth 22:43:16 --- quit: arke ("brb") 22:45:47 --- quit: mur_ (Remote closed the connection) 22:46:20 --- join: mur (~mur@uiah.fi) joined #forth 22:47:58 --- join: arke (~chris@wbar8.lax1-4-11-100-111.dsl-verizon.net) joined #forth 23:21:47 --- quit: slava ("Leaving") 23:43:46 --- quit: Sonarman ("Lost terminal") 23:46:40 kc5tja: do you like Billy Joel 23:50:36 --- join: mur_ (~mur@smtp.uiah.fi) joined #forth 23:55:41 --- join: qFox (~C00K13S@82-169-140-229-mx.xdsl.tiscali.nl) joined #forth 23:56:18 C00K13S 23:56:47 arke! 23:57:09 ah yes lets fix my ident 23:57:18 * qFox calls in kuvos 23:57:49 --- join: kuvos (~C00K13S@82-169-140-229-mx.xdsl.tiscali.nl) joined #forth 23:58:28 --- quit: kuvos (Client Quit) 23:58:44 :) 23:59:08 qFox: HAH!!! 23:59:11 hm no point for him to be on freenode without a mysql server installed 23:59:13 qFox: I'm a level higher than you! 23:59:34 you better be, you've got a month more then i :p 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/04.08.23