00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.08.01
00:20:55 * crc just uploaded RetroForth 7.1
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01:16:09 * Tomasu is back (gone 07:33:18)
01:16:12 * Tomasu is away: Just casue
01:16:20 --- nick: Tomasu -> TomasuDlrrp
02:49:29 <ASau> arke, Vladimir Vostov must be Bulgarian not German.
02:51:05 <Robert> Dobryjj utro, ASau!
02:51:37 <ASau> God dag, Robert!
02:52:15 <ASau> "Dobroe utro" is right.
02:53:42 <Robert> Ah, OK
03:07:30 <crc> I finally fixed the bug in 'then', I'll probably update the online copies this afternoon
03:17:25 <Robert> Neat.
03:17:38 * Robert wonders how many bugs that could possibly fit in 'then'
03:18:07 <crc> The if/then pair sets up a conditional jump (based on the value in eax)
03:18:45 <crc> If there is no CALL's to a word after 'then', the last word between if/then ends up getting executed
03:19:25 <crc> The fixed version has an 'invisible' word that just returns. 'then' adds a call to this word, fixing the problem
03:20:20 <crc> Those two words (if/then) took me a year and a half to implement...
03:20:57 <crc> Almost as long as it took to implement the return stack
03:24:34 * crc will return shortly :: rebooting into FreeBSD to add the 'then' fix
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03:41:38 <crc> can anyone here access retroforth.org? I'm trying to determine if the server is down again
03:42:13 <Robert> Hm.. doesn't seem to work over here.
03:44:06 <Robert> Ah!
03:44:08 <Robert> There it goes.
03:44:11 <Robert> Took a while.
03:45:40 <crc> I can't even ping it :-(
03:47:05 <Robert> Odd... my connection hasn't been the most stable, but that page seems slower than usual.
03:48:44 <crc> Odd, one of the nameserver entries disappeared...
03:49:45 * crc sighs
03:50:53 <crc> The missing nameserver would have to be the problems; turns out the server is still up and running
03:54:27 <crc> And they already got mangled again!
03:54:45 * crc is ready to complain to HostWay for their f***** SiteControl tool
03:55:33 <crc> Why can't they just get the nameserver updates in place properly? It worked fine before they 'updated' the tool
04:03:03 <ASau> "Connected to retroforth.org."
04:03:22 <ASau> But no "login:" prompt.
04:03:26 <ASau> FTP.
04:03:37 <ASau> OK. "login"
04:05:27 <crc> It appears that Mozilla is timing out too soon
04:08:48 <crc> I reset the nameservers, now I have to wait for them to propogate again
04:08:52 * crc sighs
04:09:42 <ASau> Is IP the same?
04:10:20 * Robert returns from biannual shaving.
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04:11:25 <crc> I added the nameservers for the new server (which I'll be moving to tonight)
04:11:43 <crc> Hostway then forgot the primary name server, and f***** up the order
04:13:31 <crc> I can access it from http://locust.dhservers.net/~crcone, but all of the links were hardcoded to 'retroforth.org', which my ISP isn't resolving
04:19:53 <crc> brb
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04:23:38 <crc_> I tried manually entering the IP into the hosts file and rebooting, but that didn't work either :-(
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04:24:42 --- nick: crc_ -> crc
04:33:44 <ASau> Ping is 167 ms average.
04:34:40 <crc> Even ping can't resolve the retroforth.org domain on my system
04:35:06 <ASau> nslookup is OK.
04:46:53 <crc> What DNS servers does your nslookup use/
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04:59:16 <crc> I got it working again :-)
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05:00:22 * crc begins preparing to produce a mirror of retroforth.org at the old retro.tunes.org site
05:18:45 --- quit: crc ("Time for bed... Goodnight all!")
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05:30:59 <Serg[GPRS]> hi
05:32:42 <Robert> Dobroe utro
05:33:54 * Serg[GPRS] is converting music for low bitrate for my MP3 gadget
05:35:50 * Serg[GPRS] rented a room and took a month vacation at work, so i am devoid of comp and inet access ;)
05:36:20 <Robert> Awww
05:37:32 <Serg[GPRS]> now i'm at home to burn backup CD's and feed my gadget w/ music
05:42:07 <ASau> Dobryjj den', Serg.
05:43:49 <Serg[GPRS]> ASau: doXly den' ;))
05:44:18 <Serg[GPRS]> "Dead morning !" was my favorite greeting at some mega-bad job ;))
05:44:25 <Serg[GPRS]> even long after i left, it was living
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06:15:59 * Serg[GPRS] dislikes the process of CD-burning coz it forbids doing anything elese ;((
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06:49:23 <mur> Serg[GPRS], hmmm
06:49:31 <mur> the old drives and windows did that
06:49:42 <mur> nowdays it doesnt do it anymore i think
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09:19:21 <arke> what do you guys think is the best way to bootstrap crk4th?
09:19:22 <arke> im thinking just flat out assembly and then metacompile later.
09:19:24 <arke> anybody have a better idea?
09:23:50 <Robert> Just don't think too much about it, or you'll end up doing nothing :P
09:25:29 <arke> grrrr
09:25:31 <arke> seriously
09:25:35 <arke> what do you think,?
09:27:07 <ASau> Use text preprocessing.
09:27:18 <Robert> I've thought about it myself, and I think writing using assembly for the start will be easiest.
09:27:20 <ASau> E.g. m4.
09:27:30 <arke> ASau: :/
09:27:41 <ASau> Or awk.
09:29:10 <ASau> You can write simplistic quasi-Forth-to-asm preprocessor in several lines.
09:29:34 <arke> interewssting idea...
09:29:51 <ASau> You'll be able to use + and <# names instead of PLUS  and BDIGS
09:30:15 <arke> the probglem is....
09:30:32 <arke> I already have 75 lines of asm ;)
09:31:01 <ASau> That's only 5 screens, throw them away.
09:31:49 <ASau> I've thrown more code, than these 75 lines.
09:33:36 <arke> so have I
09:33:47 <arke> a week ago I threw away 250 lines of asm code
09:34:23 <I440r> its a good habit to get into 
09:34:29 <I440r> code it, throw it away, recode it
09:34:36 <I440r> works when i cant get it right first time :)
09:42:01 <arke> :)
09:49:40 <arke> heh what a typo
09:49:48 <arke> just wrote "poop" instead of "loop"
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09:59:43 * crc is still having trouble accessing retroforth.org
10:14:43 * crc has put the last versions of each releases series (1-7) at retro.tunes.org now
10:17:14 <arke> :)
10:20:50 <arke> :/
10:22:19 <arke> gnorpm
10:22:24 <arke> oops ignore that
10:30:56 <crc> You shouldn't try to use IRC as a shell :-)
10:32:07 <arke> ;)
10:32:09 <arke> the thing is
10:32:12 <arke> i have 2 keyboards
10:32:16 <arke> ;)
10:32:22 <arke> one for the SPARC one for the PC
10:33:41 <arke> and somertimes i just mix them up
10:33:42 <arke> ;)
10:34:35 <crc> I see
10:34:41 <crc> Put labels on them :-)
10:34:52 <arke> heh
10:34:57 <arke> i dont look when i type, sorry
10:35:33 <arke> ;)
10:44:14 * crc is going to bed; goodnight all!
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10:44:37 <arke> he must work night shift.
10:51:00 <Robert> Or maybe he's a geek.
10:51:05 <I440r> lol
10:51:53 <arke> lol
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12:17:41 <slava> hi
12:18:31 <slava> hmm, it took crc 1 year to implement >r/r>? :)
12:20:09 <I440r> heh
12:20:10 <arke> 2;)
12:20:16 <I440r> so he is a slow coder
12:45:05 <slava> i think i write about 10k lines a year
12:45:26 <I440r> :)
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14:31:20 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja
14:32:08 <Robert> Hi
14:32:14 <kc5tja> greetings
14:32:29 <slava> hey
14:32:38 <kc5tja> re
14:35:52 <slava> what's new?
14:35:55 <slava> how's kesterl?
14:36:19 <kc5tja> I'm sorry for being lax in my updates.
14:36:26 <kc5tja> But I haven't had the time recently to work on it.
14:36:38 <kc5tja> I'm on a 3-day weekend now, so hopefully I'll get something done.
14:36:49 <kc5tja> Herkamire is working on a new emulator for the TTA processor.
14:37:07 <kc5tja> And I'm trying to write the Architecture manual for the FTS1000 family of processors.
14:41:06 <kc5tja> Then once that is done, it's time to port the MachineForth environment to the TTA architecture.
14:49:21 <kc5tja> I can see we're all very talkative today.  :)
14:50:13 <slava> i'm figuring out somebody else's php code :(
14:50:57 <I440r_> im at work again
14:51:12 <I440r_> decided to finish off this one thing so we can ship these computers tomorrow
14:53:37 <kc5tja> Well, I'm off to hack on the TTA documentation.
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15:43:38 <slava> doublec!
15:44:14 <doublec> hi slava!
15:45:58 <slava> doublec, native factor bootstraps itself and limps along -- but second-generation images don't work
15:46:06 <slava> also there seems to be a new issue in the garbage collector.
15:48:57 <doublec> sounds like progress! What does the second generation image do?
15:51:15 <slava> doublec, well, make-image from a native factor, then run this image then make-image again, then run this image -> crash.
15:51:24 <doublec> ok, I'll try it. 
15:53:07 <slava> doublec, latest code is not in cvs.
15:53:09 <slava> i'll commit shortly.
15:53:19 <slava> doublec, also, i started writing a developer guide, using LyX.
15:53:34 <doublec> slava, cool!
16:02:04 * kc5tja just realized something....
16:02:23 <kc5tja> The data and return stacks provide (essentially) four "general purpose registers" in the normal register-sense of the word.
16:02:44 <warpzero> jeez
16:02:45 <slava> you guys should check out http://factor.modalwebserver.co.nz/browser/
16:02:48 <warpzero> always so serious kc5tja 
16:02:57 <warpzero> don't you ever talk about girls and rock and roll
16:04:14 <kc5tja> No.  
16:09:53 <Robert> Pink Floyd doesn't count as rock, I guess?
16:10:16 <Robert> Anyway, those are good areas for a geek to avoid, assuming he likes to keep his sanity.
16:17:54 <kc5tja> Pink Floyd very much counts as rock.  It's just a different genre.
16:18:45 <Robert> I don't even know what rock is.
16:31:40 <warpzero> Pink Floyd is a different genre.
16:31:44 <warpzero> Crap.
16:31:53 <warpzero> i am so banned
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17:25:02 <crc> slava: it took me a year to implement >r/r> because I was learning still learning x86 assembly :-)
17:34:10 * crc is going back to bed; weekends are for catching up on sleep...
17:34:13 --- quit: crc ("Time for bed... Goodnight all!")
18:06:05 <kc5tja> Okay!  I have the FTS1000 Texinfo documentation "done enough" for me to start hacking on the MachineForth implementation for it.
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23:28:29 <arke> :/
23:28:34 <arke> when has kc5tja been here last?
23:28:38 <arke> er
23:28:40 <arke> nevermind
23:28:42 <arke> hes here right now 
23:28:43 <arke> ;)
23:28:45 <arke> kc5tja: hi
23:28:59 <arke> kc5tja: the RX-7 across the street is a 1986
23:29:08 <arke> kc5tja: so that means second generation, I think
23:33:14 <arke> except that hes been idle for 5 hours
23:33:18 <arke> so hes probably asleep
23:39:35 <kc5tja> hey
23:39:53 <kc5tja> Been hacking on documentation all night.
23:40:19 <kc5tja> Yes, a 1986 RX-7 is a second-generation vehicle.  I have an '86 myself.
23:41:06 <arke> cool.
23:41:12 <arke> so tell me about it
23:41:19 <arke> whats good, whats bad, etc. etc. etc. 
23:41:29 <kc5tja> Everything I told you before still holds.
23:41:48 <kc5tja> Mazda is amazingly adept at not changing the feel of a car too much over its lifespan and evolution.
23:42:18 <kc5tja> A stick-shift second generation will feel every bit like a stick-shift first generation.
23:42:55 <kc5tja> In fact, driving the RX-8 made me almost cry, because it reminded me so much of my old first-generation car.
23:43:13 <arke> :)
23:43:24 <kc5tja> The second generation vehicles do hug the road substantially better than the first generation cars though.
23:43:41 <arke> and they're turbocharged too, right? :)
23:43:42 <kc5tja> This is due to the fact that the car physically sits about 5cm lower than the first generation.
23:43:45 <kc5tja> No.
23:44:03 <kc5tja> Turbo-charging was an option, and even then, only on '88 and later model years.
23:44:08 <arke> oh, ok
23:44:12 <kc5tja> You can GET them turbo'ed if you wanted.
23:44:17 <arke> naah
23:44:20 <arke> no reason to
23:44:25 <arke> not gonna be racin'
23:44:28 <arke> well, maybe.
23:44:28 <kc5tja> The third-generation RX-7s are the ones that came stock with twin, sequential turbos.
23:44:42 <arke> aah, ok
23:44:46 <arke> the spirit R et al?
23:45:04 <kc5tja> No.  *ALL* 3rd generations.
23:45:16 <kc5tja> From the luxury model to all four R-models.
23:45:32 <arke> ok :)
23:45:39 <arke> heard one the other day
23:45:40 <kc5tja> You simply cannot purchase a 3rd generation RX-7 without its turbos.
23:45:43 <arke> was at low RPM
23:45:47 <arke> sounded ... intersting
23:45:55 <kc5tja> Rotaries are very, very spooky engines.
23:46:02 <kc5tja> Turbocharged are even spookier.
23:46:02 <arke> sounded smooth
23:46:08 <kc5tja> Wait until you ride one.
23:46:19 <arke> but there was still a somewhat "chikka chikka" quality to the sound
23:46:22 <kc5tja> Two observations from most people who ride in my car:
23:46:31 <kc5tja> 1.  It rides like a Cadillac, and,
23:46:43 <kc5tja> 2.  This car sucks because you can't feel it accelerate.
23:46:51 <arke> lol
23:46:58 <kc5tja> (despite the fact that it accelerates quite competitively with other cars in its class!)
23:47:07 <arke> ;)
23:47:19 <arke> wheee
23:47:23 <arke> i have linux 0.01 source ;)
23:47:27 <kc5tja> The rotary engine is a dangerous engine for this reason.  
23:47:43 <kc5tja> You will be cruising along, minding your own business, and the next thing you know, you're doing 90MPH or more.
23:48:09 <arke> ;)
23:48:18 <kc5tja> Also, low-end torque on a rotary just isn't there, so don't even try to race a Corvette or Mustang.
23:48:29 <arke> heh
23:48:45 <arke> once I get into the 7000s range i should be fine though, right? ;)
23:48:47 <kc5tja> But get the engine up to around 3000RPM, and she will take off like a space shuttle.
23:48:52 <arke> (the problem being getting there) ^_^
23:48:58 <arke> yeah
23:48:59 <arke> ;)
23:49:08 <arke> hmm
23:49:21 <arke> when starting, I could floor, feather, and keep the engine at high rpm
23:49:32 <kc5tja> 1st gear on rotary cars are exceptionally torquey to help mitigate this problem; stay in 1st until you're at least at 4000 RPM, then shift.  This will put you at 2500RPM in 2nd, and will readily accelerate from there.
23:49:37 <arke> wears off clutch plate, but should go ------------------------------------------->
23:49:52 <kc5tja> There is really no reason to do that.
23:49:59 <arke> aah, ok 
23:50:00 <arke> just an idea
23:50:18 <arke> or just take 1st to like 6000 ;)
23:50:18 <kc5tja> I just shifted at 5000RPM in my 1st gen RX-7, which dropped me consistently at 3000RPM in the next higher gear.  I had plenty of power at my disposal.
23:50:30 <kc5tja> If you were drag racing sure.
23:50:42 * kc5tja prefers GT- and autocross-racing more.
23:50:46 <kc5tja> Drag racing is for wimps.
23:50:55 <arke> yeah
23:51:02 <arke> brother of friend has a mustang
23:51:06 <kc5tja> It only shows how much money you used to have, that you wasted on a one-trick pony car.
23:51:09 <arke> told him i might get an RX-7
23:51:24 <arke> and hes like ill drag race you
23:51:29 <arke> he's got an AT ;)
23:51:36 <kc5tja> and he'll win too.
23:51:45 <arke> probably
23:51:46 <arke> ;)
23:51:52 <kc5tja> The 150HP in the '7 is no match for the 250HP in his Mustang.
23:51:54 <kc5tja> Guaranteed.
23:52:01 <kc5tja> The Mustang isn't THAT much heavier than the '7.
23:52:11 <kc5tja> He definitely has superior power to weight ratio.
23:52:15 <kc5tja> And see, you'll get a LOT of these poeple.
23:52:35 <kc5tja> They see you have a car of pure elegance, and they have to go waving their dicks around like brutish cavemen to show how superior they are.
23:52:36 <arke> yep
23:52:38 <kc5tja> Fuck their bravado.
23:52:43 <arke> heh
23:52:44 <arke> ;)
23:52:51 <arke> hmm
23:52:52 <kc5tja> It doesn't mean anything.
23:52:55 <kc5tja> Drive the car because it's you.
23:53:01 <arke> got a question
23:53:03 <kc5tja> Not because you want to be someone else.
23:53:10 <arke> if you were to drag race from 0-60 the mustang would win
23:53:16 <arke> but what if you were doing 0-120?
23:53:25 <kc5tja> The Mustang would still win.
23:53:34 <arke> what about 160? ;)
23:53:34 <kc5tja> The reason is it is faster off-the-line, from a dead stop.
23:53:47 <arke> true :/
23:53:50 <kc5tja> That means the car can gain distance while the RX-7 is still gaining in speed.
23:53:52 <arke> heh
23:54:00 <arke> not with an RX-8 though, right? ;)
23:54:10 <kc5tja> In order for the '7 to win, you have to beat the Mustang at something it doesn't have: maneuverability.
23:54:13 <arke> RX-8 gets, without turbos, 5.8 0-60
23:54:20 <arke> aaah, neat
23:54:20 <arke> ;)
23:54:28 <kc5tja> Put that same Mustang on a curvy course, and watch how much he has to *brake* to take a turn, versus you.
23:54:42 <arke> :)
23:54:50 <arke> RX-8 vs. Mustang?
23:54:54 <kc5tja> Your dick may be bigger and fatter, but mine can weave and turn.
23:55:00 <arke> lets just say drag race, not real race
23:55:03 <kc5tja> RX-8 is about as powerful as a Mustang.
23:55:05 <arke> heh
23:55:05 <arke> lol
23:55:19 <kc5tja> It has a 240HP engine, and the car weighs 66% that of a Mustang.
23:55:26 <arke> aah neat
23:55:28 <kc5tja> Hence, the '8 will show the Mustang it's ass easily.
23:55:30 <arke> so RX-8 = go
23:55:34 <kc5tja> (as will a 3rd gen RX-7)
23:55:35 <arke> and it doesnt even have turbos ;)
23:55:42 <kc5tja> Right.
23:55:43 <arke> heh
23:55:43 <kc5tja> BBUUTT
23:55:45 <arke> :)
23:55:48 <arke> hmm?
23:55:50 <kc5tja> You have to know how to drive it to extract that performance.
23:56:01 <kc5tja> If you drive it like a piston engined car, it'll behave no better than a 1986 '7.
23:56:03 <kc5tja> Guaranteed.
23:56:09 <kc5tja> (I know -- I've driven one.  :D)
23:56:13 <arke> you cant just yank it to 7000 then shift? :)
23:56:25 <kc5tja> If you want to go fast with the '8, do NOT be afraid to take it to 8500RPM.
23:56:27 <arke> (well, mine would be best at 4000, due to its low torque)
23:56:33 <arke> aah
23:56:34 <arke> :)
23:56:41 <arke> it can handle it
23:56:41 <arke> :)
23:56:49 <kc5tja> It can technically handle 10500RPM.
23:56:55 <kc5tja> But the transmission can't.
23:57:03 <arke> lol
23:57:11 <arke> in a piston engine, thats usually the other way around ;)
23:57:18 <kc5tja> This is why the redline on the '8 with 6-speed manual is 9500RPM.
23:57:29 <kc5tja> arke: Also for all rotary engines up 'til now.
23:57:40 <arke> aah
23:57:51 <arke> btw
23:57:54 <arke> i have thought about it
23:58:00 <arke> and i think my car might be able to go 120
23:58:07 <arke> if I use 3rd gear etensively
23:58:11 <arke> and 4th gear
23:58:17 <arke> well, maybe 110
23:58:33 <arke> 3rd gear has a VERY good range in my car
23:58:39 <kc5tja> arke: To get maximum speed, you need to know the full power range of your engine.  Shift at or just slightly beyond the max power point to get highest speeds.
23:59:06 <arke> well, i seem to get max torque-to-that-other-variable thingy at around 4200RPM
23:59:15 <arke> that means, i get the best performance shifting then
23:59:29 <kc5tja> No.  Max torque is at a lower RPM than max power.
23:59:37 <arke> err
23:59:39 <arke> max power then
23:59:53 <kc5tja> To get pure, unadulterated speed, you shift at max power.  (WARNING: SUCKS GAS LIKE A SIV!)
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/04.08.01