00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.07.28
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04:24:51 * crc is getting annoyed
04:26:30 <crc> The server hosting retroforth.org is down for a RAM check
04:26:35 <crc> It's been down since 12:30am, and it's now 7:30am :-(
04:34:57 <Robert> Obviously the RAM wasn't good enough.
04:38:09 <crc> No, the RAM is fine
04:39:03 <crc> The damn techs at EV1 datacenter have checked it several times before this
04:39:14 <crc> They've reloaded the OS several times
04:39:18 <crc> And other crap
04:39:47 <crc> The server *needs* 512MB more RAM to handle the load (it goes down when daily backups are enabled)
04:39:57 <crc> But they *refuse* to add another 512MB to it
04:40:01 * crc sighs
04:42:29 <crc> While waiting I'm having fun with the new hack for FASM
04:45:32 <crc> It now supports multiple instructions per line :-)
04:46:25 <Robert> Heh, that sounds.... good.
04:46:34 <crc> It is
04:46:47 <Robert> Won't it look awfully messy (except maybe with REP)
04:46:50 <Robert> ?
04:46:51 <crc> afunction: mov eax, 1  add eax, ebx  ret
04:46:52 <crc> Yes
04:47:06 <crc> But it'll allow more compact source code
04:47:12 * crc likes compact source code
04:47:20 <Robert> Yes, but not at any cost. :)
04:47:27 <crc> Well...
04:47:57 <crc> The assembler I'm writing for RetroForth also allows multiple instructions per line
04:49:05 <crc> Though in reverse order:  label afunction 1 eax i/r mov, ebx eax add, ret, 
04:51:26 <Robert> How will you encode nasty things like...    mov eax,[ebx*4+ecx+foo]  ?
04:51:44 <crc> Umm, I won't
04:51:53 <crc> I don't do stuff like that!
04:52:46 <crc> The assembler is part of the target compiler, which will allow RetroForth to generate native executables
04:52:59 <crc> It doesn't need nasty encodings
04:53:20 <crc> Just enough complexity to bootstrap the various words used in RetroForth programs...
04:55:44 <crc> The only time I use anything like [register+number] or [register+addess] is in the >number and find words
04:55:51 <Robert> Hehe OK. :)
04:55:57 <crc> And those don't have to be assembled by my assembler
04:56:11 * crc isn't patient enough to write a full assembler for the x86
04:56:28 <Robert> That's a sign of sanity. ;)
04:56:42 <crc> I agree. And I'd rather code in Forth :-)
05:08:44 * crc heads over to meme.b9.com to read the logs and see what he missed last night
05:11:53 * crc sees that he didn't miss much - it was a quiet night
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05:52:15 <crc> The server is *still* down
05:52:39 <crc> And almost 9 hours have gone by...
05:53:24 <crc> At least this is the first major outage this month...
05:58:56 * crc is going to bed. Goodnight all!
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06:00:34 --- nick: O3BEPH -> Serg
06:00:39 <Serg> hi all !
06:01:03 <Serg> i'm on vacation till 26-8-04, will have no comp no link
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08:15:12 <ASau_> Dobryjj vecher!
08:15:17 --- nick: ASau_ -> ASau
08:31:05 <arke> hi there everybody
08:31:50 <ASau> arke, do you know how I can force X to work w/o mouse?
08:33:05 <arke> uum
08:33:18 <warpzero> yeah
08:33:22 <warpzero> its called terminal
08:33:40 <arke> I would think to just comment out everything in XF86Config about the mouse, but I'm not sure
08:33:58 <ASau> warpzero, I don't know why, but I can't make BSD to provide fbdev.
08:34:11 <ASau> Well.
08:34:37 <ASau> If I log off, think I'm fighting LSD.
08:35:27 <Herkamire> what do you mean X work without the mouse?
08:35:31 <Herkamire> unplug your mouse?
08:35:57 <Herkamire> I didn't think X required a mouse in the first place
08:36:01 <arke> Herkamire: utilize X wth only the keyboard. Like with evilwm or something.
08:36:05 <arke> ;)
08:36:40 <ASau> Actually, I don't have sane rat.
08:36:58 <ASau> And I don't want to solder this board.
08:37:08 <Herkamire> I use ion
08:37:22 <arke> ASau: evilwm is great for use without a mouse.
08:37:53 <ASau> Hy!
08:38:16 <ASau> "(EE) No core pointer device specified"
08:40:11 <Herkamire> just say it's USB
08:40:22 <arke> anybody know sparc asm here? :)
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08:41:11 <Herkamire> oh, nevermind
08:41:36 <Herkamire> ASau: does it give an error when you used the normal config with no mouse plugged in?
08:41:52 <Herkamire> evilwm looks ok
08:42:17 <Herkamire> still has the classic problem of a big mess of windows that partially overlap
08:42:18 <arke> i have evilwm on the sparc
08:42:19 <arke> ;)
08:42:30 <arke> bah :)
08:42:42 * arke is trying to figure out how openboot works on the sparc
08:42:54 <Herkamire> did it come with openboot?
08:42:59 <arke> Its direct threaded, TOS in g4, psp in g7
08:43:18 <arke> havent quite figured out the rest
08:43:32 <arke> oh, no, evilwm is on linux on the sparc
08:44:09 <arke> dup is
08:44:27 <arke> sub g7, 8, g7 ; increment stack pointer
08:44:56 <arke> stx g4, [g0 + g7] ; store top of stack at second of stack
08:45:05 <arke>                 ; dont ask me what the g0 is for
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08:46:39 <arke> the rest seems to be the inline next
08:46:42 <arke> (3 instructions)
08:46:47 <arke> later, work
08:55:58 <Herkamire> I thought sparc was risc.
08:56:16 <warpzero> it is
08:56:24 <Herkamire> just has funky syntax I guess
08:57:21 <Herkamire> ppc writes it:   stwx r1, r2, r3
08:58:13 <Herkamire> (and the 'r's are optional)
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10:51:51 <ASau> Ura!
10:52:01 <ASau> I've managed it.
10:52:02 <Robert> Privet, ASau :)
10:52:06 <Robert> Managed what?
10:52:20 <ASau> Now I've got X without mouse pointer.
10:52:29 <ASau> Without any mouse at all.
10:52:46 <ASau> God kvaell, Robert!
10:52:47 <Robert> Heh, OK. :)
10:53:20 <ASau> Next problem to solve: remapping of short-keys in evilvm
10:53:32 <ASau> so they do not overlap Emacs.
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12:08:36 <slava> kids
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13:19:26 <tathi> argh.
13:19:39 * tathi hates it when people create PostScript documents that don't conform to the DSC...
13:19:56 <tathi> (Document Structuring Conventions, that is)
13:40:12 * Tomasu is back (gone 14:29:34)
13:50:03 <slava> hi
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15:12:53 <slava> hi doublec
15:14:05 <arke> OpenBoot/SPARC NEXT is inline 3 instructions
15:14:12 <arke> 	ld	[%g5], %l0
15:14:12 <arke> 	jmp	%l0, %g2, %g0
15:14:13 <arke> 	add	%g5, 4, %g5
15:14:30 <arke> (note that SPARC has branch delay slots)
15:15:10 <arke> g4 seems to be top of data stack
15:15:11 <arke> g7 seems to be pointer to rest of data stack (top-down)
15:15:11 <arke> g5 seems to be the Forth IP
15:15:41 <arke> I'm still trying to figure out the purpose of g2
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15:20:07 <arke> ....and g0
15:20:19 <arke> g0 might be a segment modifier
15:20:34 <arke> hmm
15:20:37 <arke> no, %g0 is 0
15:21:00 <arke> %g2 might be
15:26:33 <arke> now i see why they went with DTC - its nearly impossible to create an STC forth on a sparc :/
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15:29:03 <doublec> hi slava
15:29:34 <doublec> slava, try http://factor.modalwebserver.co.nz/live-updater/
15:29:49 <doublec> In the input box at the bottom type 'live' or 'live-updater' and wait
15:31:23 <slava> doublec, cool
15:31:28 <slava> doublec, it doesn't work in koqnueror though
15:31:30 <slava> doublec, only mozilla
15:31:53 <doublec> yah, probably need to look into what konqueror's support for the xmlhttprequest object is
15:32:01 <arke> oh, thats cool
15:32:05 <doublec> safari, mozilla, firefox and IE are supported.
15:32:20 <arke> instead of having an explicit register move, it just adds with the 0 register ;)
15:32:35 <slava> doublec, its slick
15:32:49 <doublec> yea, I like it  too
15:33:15 <slava> will this be used in the eval responder?
15:33:34 <doublec> I think it would be useful. Especially if I can get it working in konqueror.
15:33:47 <arke> Herkamire: there?
15:33:56 --- nick: Tomasu -> Typosu
15:33:57 <slava> doublec, i think its really cool
15:34:01 <slava> doublec, a usages. box would be nice too
15:34:31 <doublec> yup
15:37:16 <slava> it would be nice to be able to do development on a web app entirely through the browser
15:38:00 --- nick: Typosu -> Tomasu
15:44:54 <doublec> definitely
15:47:33 <slava> well, testing rather
15:47:39 <slava> i'd still use a text editor for source coding
15:47:51 <doublec> yes. It's more suited for exploratory type programming.
15:47:51 <slava> but test each app word by word, live on the server
15:48:02 <doublec> or live tracking down of problems.
15:48:07 <slava> exactly
15:48:34 <doublec> talking to avi on #squeak it doesn't work on Safari. Probably due to a change I made to use POST for the search facility. I'll look into it.
15:49:02 <doublec> and online 'documentation' for searching for words, etc.
15:49:12 <doublec> usually I use grep :-)
16:00:23 <slava> doublec, you also coded a web framework in scheme, correct?
16:01:56 <doublec> slava, yes. Once as an example (at http://www.double.co.nz/scheme/modal-web-server.html) and another is a commercial application (not open source).
16:02:12 <doublec> (for the company I work for)
16:02:39 <slava> ok cool
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16:44:10 * Tomasu is away: anime time
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19:40:57 <madgarden> So, what's shaking this evening?
19:41:45 <ayrnieu> I started to try and implement K in Factor, and instead decided to dig out my OpenBSD laptop, and then discovered that in the few weeks of my concentrated iMac use, I'd forgotten the hardware passwords.  Instant paperweight.
19:41:47 <CrewdenX> nothing in the last 3 hours and 35 minutes.
19:41:59 <ayrnieu> and kx.com won't bloody answer my email.
19:42:09 <madgarden> Gah!
19:42:19 <madgarden> First of all... what's K?
19:42:30 <ayrnieu> madgarden - www.kx.com -- an APL derivative.
19:43:15 <ayrnieu> Listening now to BassDrive, but still somewhat irritated.
19:45:16 <madgarden> What's the reason behind implementing K in Factor?
19:45:21 <ianp> K?
19:45:33 <ianp> oh, damn, i need to read before speaking.
19:45:38 <ayrnieu> well, I want K, and I have Factor.
19:45:39 <ianp> evening guys.
19:45:41 <madgarden> And, I'm listening to Groove Salad on SomaFM.
19:45:48 <madgarden> Hi ya.
19:46:08 * ianp wonders how kc5's toy is going
19:49:51 <madgarden> I'm going to be using Forthy at work, for remote testing of embedded terminals.
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20:00:55 <LOOP-HOG> hi
20:01:02 <madgarden> hi
20:01:10 <LOOP-HOG> anything new going on?
20:01:29 <madgarden> I don't really know.
20:01:41 <LOOP-HOG> quite night
20:01:45 <madgarden> Going to be using my Forth-like at work for a big project.
20:01:55 <LOOP-HOG> how is it not like Forth?
20:01:59 <LOOP-HOG> and congratulations
20:02:10 <madgarden> It's written in C, used for "scripting" and extension.
20:02:18 <madgarden> Has typed values.
20:02:53 <LOOP-HOG> other than that its pretty much forth?
20:02:58 <madgarden> Yep, more or less!
20:03:04 <LOOP-HOG> do you have R> R@ and >R
20:03:11 <LOOP-HOG> nice
20:03:12 <madgarden> Nope, that's not safe.
20:03:26 <madgarden> It's crash-resistant, unlike Forth. ;)
20:03:27 <LOOP-HOG> i don't really have a Forth
20:03:58 <LOOP-HOG> I program in SwiftForth.  When it crashes it usually just hoses that one instance of Forth in the OS
20:04:13 <madgarden> If I wanted to though, I could create a stack in the system (as a value) and make R> R@ >R words to access it. It wouldn't affect control-flow or anything, of course.
20:04:23 <LOOP-HOG> hmm
20:04:29 <madgarden> Hmm, that sounds like a good thing.
20:04:43 <LOOP-HOG> so you have one implicit stack, the paramater stack?
20:05:00 <madgarden> Yep, data stack, and a call stack that they can't mess with directly.
20:05:00 <LOOP-HOG> you can just provide a utility to create auxilary stacks
20:05:07 <LOOP-HOG> ok
20:05:12 <madgarden> Actually, "stack" is one of the native types.
20:05:16 <LOOP-HOG> ok
20:05:24 <madgarden> So, stack of stacks of stacks...
20:05:28 <LOOP-HOG> wild
20:05:29 <madgarden> Though, I have to work on that a bit yet.
20:05:41 <LOOP-HOG> I don't have a real Forth, but HOG-FORTH has 4 stacks
20:05:43 <madgarden> It works, just that stacks are copied all the time.
20:05:57 <LOOP-HOG> interesting
20:05:58 <madgarden> How is it not a real Forth? And cool!
20:06:08 <madgarden> I've also got 4 stacks... vocabulary and input as well.
20:06:12 <LOOP-HOG> do you call it Psudoforth?
20:06:35 <madgarden> I don't think there's an acceptable definition of "a real forth".
20:06:43 <LOOP-HOG> perhaps not
20:07:00 <madgarden> Every forth seems to be a different flavour anyway.
20:07:03 <ayrnieu> except for 'ANSI Forth', by definition.
20:07:13 <LOOP-HOG> I have one nonetheless, which might not be 100% true 100% of the time
20:07:17 <madgarden> It's not "real," just standardized.
20:07:29 <madgarden> Mine's certainly not true. But it's perfect for what I want it for.
20:07:49 <LOOP-HOG> FORTH is an extensiable macro assembler for a simple two stack virtual machine
20:08:06 <madgarden> Sure.
20:08:15 <LOOP-HOG> most of the time
20:08:19 <madgarden> Here's how I'm using mine in my own projects currently: http://www3.sympatico.ca/ppridham/misc/project/deathfist/console.png
20:09:03 <LOOP-HOG> makes me interested in what is behind door #2
20:09:12 <madgarden> Heh. That's a map editor underneath there.
20:09:37 <LOOP-HOG> nothing
20:09:59 <madgarden> ?
20:10:10 <LOOP-HOG> I deleted on the URL bar till i got to the domain name and then came back here
20:10:41 <LOOP-HOG> for games?
20:10:54 <madgarden> Oh, that's just my ISP's member web-hosting, basically.
20:10:57 <madgarden> And yea, for games.
20:11:16 <LOOP-HOG> where do you work?
20:11:27 <LOOP-HOG> can you say/
20:12:01 <LOOP-HOG> So you can write Forth words to help you write game maps
20:12:03 <madgarden> Hmm, I think I can say? This project I showed you is my own project, though.
20:12:06 <LOOP-HOG> man, I could do that
20:12:10 <LOOP-HOG> not the C part though
20:12:45 <madgarden> Yep, game maps, also it will doing other configuration and scripting AI.
20:13:16 <LOOP-HOG> in Skampy, the ST game I wrote in Forthmacs, I used Forth extensions words to define the playfield
20:13:17 <madgarden> You'll be able to configure and edit (most of) the game at runtime and then export everything... exploratory game design. :)
20:13:23 <LOOP-HOG> and I had a different load file for each screen
20:13:30 <madgarden> Heh, cool.
20:13:30 <LOOP-HOG> so each screen was an overlay
20:13:48 <LOOP-HOG> and I had a topper file, which was loaded after the screen
20:14:08 <madgarden> Sounds cool.
20:14:23 <LOOP-HOG> thanks
20:14:28 <madgarden> What we're working on here is sort of a game engine, really.
20:14:36 <LOOP-HOG> I'm actually very interested in your project, I'd like to know how it goes.
20:14:39 <madgarden> Hopefully we'll be able to crank out stuff quickly with it in the future.
20:14:59 <LOOP-HOG> thats great news
20:15:18 <madgarden> Hopefully you like the retro 2D stuff. ;)
20:15:27 <LOOP-HOG> i like 2D games
20:15:39 <LOOP-HOG> i was thinking of puting some on my computer tonight
20:15:54 <madgarden> Hey, perhaps you'd like our Sword of Fargoal remake then. ;)
20:16:04 <LOOP-HOG> perhaps
20:17:18 <LOOP-HOG> I continue to work on HOG-SPACE
20:17:40 <madgarden> Space sim?
20:17:40 <LOOP-HOG> a few nights ago i raided CBEL for links, and ripped the lit section
20:17:50 <LOOP-HOG> no, my website of FORTH links
20:18:11 <LOOP-HOG> you have not been there/
20:18:29 <LOOP-HOG> http://www.members.dsl-only.net/~loophog/
20:19:12 <madgarden> Hmm, can't get to the link...
20:19:22 <LOOP-HOG> why?
20:19:37 <LOOP-HOG> http://members.dsl-only.net/~loophog/
20:19:39 <LOOP-HOG> oops
20:19:54 <LOOP-HOG> 2nd time got it right
20:20:03 <madgarden> Yep. ;) Cool stuff.
20:20:13 * madgarden bookmarks
20:20:19 <LOOP-HOG> thanks
20:20:27 <LOOP-HOG> feel free to take a .zip
20:21:00 <madgarden> A .zip? Where?
20:21:15 <madgarden> Perhaps when I release Forthy, you could add it to your systems list.
20:21:23 <LOOP-HOG> STYLE-AND-STYLES
20:21:34 <LOOP-HOG> but those are old ones, not updated..take care of the date
20:21:53 <LOOP-HOG> I should update the zips, but i was waiting to get more urls in there
20:22:01 <LOOP-HOG> and then i have to do my buddys band website too
20:22:06 <ayrnieu> slava - ping.
20:27:10 <madgarden> ARKE!!!
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20:46:04 <LOOP-HOG> if a FORTH gets a following, and several related links, it should get it's own page
20:47:28 <madgarden> What's a "LOOP-HOG" anyway?
20:47:39 <LOOP-HOG> have you read Starting Forth?
20:48:31 <LOOP-HOG> its a character that Leo Brodie invented to describe the DO LOOP word pair
20:48:45 <LOOP-HOG> with a Do-Do Bird for the DO
20:49:46 <madgarden> Heh. No, haven't read it.
20:49:57 <LOOP-HOG> I loved that book
20:50:29 <madgarden> I'll have to read the online version some time.
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21:09:25 <LOOP-HOG> BYE
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