00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.07.18 00:00:11 hmm... 00:00:25 seek for conflicts manually ? 00:00:40 And I know the physical layer and data link layer protocols are working, because a Firewire harddrive we have won't spin up otherwise (yes, it spins up). 00:00:54 Serg[GPRS]: With only *one* device on the bus? What conflicts are there with only ONE device? 00:01:05 And how does a conflict occur when the bus is fully auto-configured? 00:01:18 The only way that can happen is if *WINDOWS* fucks it up. So it all falls back to Windows . . . again. 00:01:35 i mean PCI bus not Firewire 00:01:43 But . . . PCI works fine. 00:01:45 the other end of controller ;)) 00:01:53 PCI is also fully autoconfigured. 00:02:49 See, guys, this is why I am working on the Kestrel. 00:02:56 I'm just plain getting too god damned old for this shit. 00:03:16 Apple had it right. An all-in-one box, with a tightly integrated OS. That's the only way to go. 00:03:25 * crc_ agrees 00:03:52 * Serg[GPRS] disliked Mac w/ OS 7 or 8 00:03:58 The occasional expansion slot or two or three is OK too. But not like the PC. 00:04:10 Serg[GPRS]: OS 7 was the best MacOS there ever was. 00:04:15 OS 8 and OS 9 were jokes. 00:04:35 Basically, OS 8 and OS 9 were both MacOS 7 but with more frilly graphics. Woo-freakin-hoo. 00:04:58 MacOS X is a lovely system, but I don't like the Aqua interface. I would rather use the regular NeXTStep window decorations. 00:05:13 yes, 68030 + OS 7.5 replies to rat FASTER than my P4+WinXP 00:05:13 (since that's essentially what MacOS X is anyway.) 00:05:40 but speed is _not_ everything 00:05:44 What?! 00:05:48 * kc5tja re-reads... 00:06:04 23:53 <@kc5tja> Serg[GPRS]: OS 7 was the best MacOS there ever was. 00:06:09 I don't see where I said it was the fastest. 00:06:17 I said it was the *best*. 00:06:27 e.g., the most usable, the most logical, the most consistent, etc. 00:06:38 maybe i did not evaluate it long enough 6)) 00:06:55 --- quit: crc (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 00:06:55 If you want to talk about sheer GUI speed, AmigaOS is *it*. 00:07:17 AmigaOS makes MacOS seem like a turtle in the north pole by comparison. 00:07:32 --- nick: crc_ -> crc 00:07:36 the thing what driven me _MAD_ in MacOS is menu at screen edge, not window edge 00:07:48 Serg[GPRS]: You are in a 1% minority then. 00:08:15 Because it's been proven by actual usability tests that the overwhelming majority of people find it faster, more accurate, and far easier to use an edge-bound menu than anything else. 00:08:29 Read Jef Raskin's works on the topic for an explanation why. 00:08:40 URL ? 00:08:43 Google. 00:08:55 I don't have any URLs right now, and I'm too lazy to look for them. 00:09:03 heh 00:09:12 But he does give quite a bit of rationale in "The Humane Interface" book. 00:09:17 if document is 100%, both is equal 00:09:39 Not necessarily. 00:09:56 but look at some small window like defrag, archiver, control panel etc.. 00:09:58 I link to several, real, honest-to-goodness scientific papers on my Kestrel site that Google would never find. 00:10:27 Yes, look at them. Now look at how amazingly easy it is to zip the mouse all the way to the top of the screen, without having to worry about overshooting. 00:11:08 window is an object, and to do something on that object, why the _hell_ do i have to move rat _out_ and _away_ from it ??? 00:11:17 The nice thing about menus at the top of the screen is that they have effectively infinite screen area (you can drive the mouse upwards all you want, and it'll still remain in the menu area). 00:11:26 did you ever move your hand _out_ of radio panel to tune it ????? 00:12:00 Serg[GPRS]: THE COMPUTER IS NOT THE REAL WORLD. 00:12:25 Haven't you ever spent some time looking for the tiny knob that controls some obscure feature? 00:12:27 NO ! if it is not real world, i get lost soon 00:12:37 Serg[GPRS]: Then stick with Windows. 00:13:07 Because I have better things to be doing with my time than trying to sharp-shoot a menu item. 00:13:19 And it's a proven fact: the smaller the item on the screen, the longer it takes to point the mouse. 00:13:41 If it is aligned on a screen edge, its area is effectively made larger because of the bounding effect of the edge. That makes the menus easier to access. 00:13:55 if u miss, finetune rat speed, or clean the rollers 00:13:58 It also frees up more screen real-estate for what is most important -- the stuff I'm working on. 00:14:06 Serg[GPRS]: Bullshit. 00:14:09 Bullshit. 00:14:16 I can't even begin to tell you how much bull shit that is. 00:14:21 What a cop-out excuse. 00:14:23 Unbelievable. 00:14:44 Go ahead. Just totally ignore the research performed. 00:14:49 15 years worth of research. 00:14:51 Just ignore it. 00:16:49 Whatever, dude. I'm going to bed. I can't take any more of this conversation. It is only making me more angry by the second. 00:16:54 --- quit: kc5tja ("leaving") 00:27:08 --- quit: Serg[GPRS] () 00:35:58 --- join: aum (~aum@port-204-54-210.fastadsl.net.nz) joined #forth 00:38:50 wb aum 01:29:07 --- join: Serg[GPRS] (~z@193.201.231.126) joined #forth 01:29:29 wb Serg[GPRS] 01:29:54 re 01:30:10 i coded in Forth first for a long time 01:30:21 wrote DUMP for Robert's TFORTH ;)) 01:30:32 I've never heard of tforth 01:30:47 I started coding in Forth about seven years ago 01:30:51 look at robert.zizi.org ;)) 01:31:10 me - at 2002 winterval 01:31:33 For me it was 1998 :-) 01:32:20 by that time i only bought P166 and had no inet ;) 01:32:35 I had a 386 and no inet ;-) 01:32:38 be4 were begged 8086 and trash 386 01:32:57 I love my 386 -- best PC I've ever had 01:33:15 still live ? 01:33:16 First one too; I wonder if that had anything to do with it... 01:33:18 Yes 01:33:23 Getting old though 01:33:30 nice 01:33:48 I want to replace the power supply and the floppy drives are bad 01:33:51 But it still works 01:34:11 my 8086's HDD died and then i gave it's board to a friend 01:34:16 DOS 6.22, Windows 3.1, GEM 1.1, PC/GEOS, Linux, and RetroForth on the hard drive :-) 01:34:32 All squeezed into 80MB, with room to spare 01:35:00 On my laptop I have over 1GB on my Windows desktop alone 01:35:06 * crc misses DOS 01:35:22 i did not work regulary by the time, so i could only afford 386 board and 120M HDD (still live) 01:35:39 and CGA from 8086 ;) 01:36:36 the first thing i tun on 8086 was Turbo Basic ;) 01:36:59 the first proggie to write - game of "life" 01:37:24 I used QBASIC first 01:37:24 * crc has never implemented 'life' 01:37:49 I never liked another programming language until RetroForth 4.0a was released 01:38:11 Turbo outruns Q ;) 01:38:55 but thinkful coding outruns broteforce ;)) 01:39:41 once my buddy "solved" in QBasic some logic puzzle - over minute on my P166 01:40:12 i eliminated impossible cases - 11 times faster ! 01:40:21 ;-) 01:40:34 I've never used TurboBasic 01:41:43 o, err, 35 times !! 01:41:52 (i found and run it) 01:42:13 cool 01:42:20 How fast would it be in Forth? 01:42:30 but i can't recall the task itself 01:42:49 i measured loop counts, not actual time 01:43:09 I see 01:43:18 I use as few loops as possible 01:43:34 7095 thinkful, 500^2 bruteforce 01:44:32 That's a lot of loops either way 01:45:46 actually, the task is just linear equation system 01:48:05 price = b1 * .01 + b2 * .1 + b3 * .5 01:48:06 count = b1 + b2 + b3 01:48:17 and he solved it by _FULL_ brute force 01:49:00 --- join: arke (arke@melrose-251-251.flexabit.net) joined #forth 01:49:25 HI!!!!!! 01:56:06 That's insane 01:56:10 Hi arke 01:56:27 Hi Charles 01:56:52 * crc watches nerviously: arke used my real name! 01:56:57 :-) 01:57:02 What's new? 01:58:18 Oh nothing.# 01:58:28 I finally figured out your social security number 01:58:33 No you didn't 01:58:39 Yes. 01:58:53 Which one for which identity? 01:58:57 I'm surprised it was actually harder to figure out the SSN# than your bank account and password. 01:59:15 the one for Charles Childers 01:59:15 If you know it, send it to me :-) 01:59:25 Which would be ok if that was my real name 01:59:35 I started going by 'Charles' just three years ago 01:59:42 529-42-6748 01:59:59 Liar 02:00:08 That's not for my current identity 02:00:08 ColorForth/PygmyForth hybrid with a personal touch for DOS 02:00:08 ColorForth/PygmyForth hybrid with a personal touch for DOS 02:00:08 ColorForth/PygmyForth hybrid with a personal touch for DOS 02:00:11 oops 02:00:13 ignore that 02:00:14 lol 02:00:17 Ok 02:00:42 * crc begins preparing a new identity -- arke must be working for the government in an attempt to hunt me down 02:01:34 well, of course. 02:01:51 * crc kicks arke for his evil deeds 02:01:52 I can't believe you were stupid enough to actually admit being the retroforth main developer 02:02:00 Why? 02:02:07 You should KNOW that we know 02:02:14 Of course I know 02:02:15 and you just said it. 02:02:17 either way 02:02:30 it makes me happy, because I will get promoted because of it. Thank you. 02:02:42 * crc orders the execution of arke 02:03:58 Oh. Really. 02:04:06 ha-ha-ha ! 02:04:08 --- nick: crc -> tcn 02:04:15 You actually believe your little fellow sect insects can find me? 02:04:18 RU net anecdote says: 02:04:19 Yes 02:04:39 We already have narrowed down the hiding places 02:05:06 Futile, I say. 02:05:14 Even if you have found me 02:05:20 some stupid youngsters opened 'order the hitman' site to collect CC 02:05:23 Nope. I'll just have Earth destroyed 02:05:25 and even IF you managed to penetrate 02:05:33 I'd just escape again 02:05:38 From earth? 02:05:40 Oh, really? 02:05:48 Earth destroyed? 02:05:50 You're better prepared than I thought 02:05:51 Yes 02:05:55 --- nick: tcn -> arke_ 02:06:06 I'm sorry, but we know that your SOF-7482 missiles are not real. 02:06:21 Who said anything about missiles? 02:07:05 biochemical weapons are MUCH nicer 02:07:34 ... 02:07:37 you're bluffing 02:07:48 We'd know about them if you had them 02:07:53 So are you 02:08:32 Prepare to die! 02:08:54 --- quit: arke (Nick collision from services.) 02:09:02 --- join: arke (arke@melrose-251-251.flexabit.net) joined #forth 02:09:08 Ha 02:09:21 --- quit: arke (Nick collision from services.) 02:09:39 --- nick: arke_ -> arke 02:09:51 See. I killed hime :-) 02:09:55 --- nick: arke -> crc 02:10:01 And now back to normal 02:10:09 --- join: teehee (arke@melrose-251-251.flexabit.net) joined #forth 02:10:19 oh, ph33r. 02:10:19 * crc sighs. Arke should know better than that 02:10:24 --- nick: teehee -> arke 02:10:34 Should I take over your nick again? 02:10:42 No, becauise I'm identified now. 02:10:50 But I'm changing the password 02:10:52 --- quit: arke (Nick collision from services.) 02:10:56 --- nick: crc -> arke 02:11:10 Ok 02:11:20 --- join: teehee (arke@melrose-251-251.flexabit.net) joined #forth 02:11:21 --- join: juhammed (~o@dsl-olugw3p33.dial.inet.fi) joined #forth 02:11:22 No big deal - you have an easy password :-) 02:11:38 * arke ponders changing it 02:11:51 i would seriously... 02:11:58 i mean 02:12:02 i would hurt you 02:12:05 bad 02:12:12 Will you stop harrasing me? 02:12:19 --- quit: arke (Nick collision from services.) 02:12:26 --- join: arke (crc@0-1pool176-3.nas6.philadelphia1.pa.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 02:12:32 --- quit: arke (Nick collision from services.) 02:12:45 --- join: arke (crc@0-1pool176-3.nas6.philadelphia1.pa.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 02:12:50 --- quit: arke (Nick collision from services.) 02:12:53 --- nick: teehee -> arke 02:12:59 --- join: crc_ (crc@0-1pool176-3.nas6.philadelphia1.pa.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 02:13:10 Hello arke :-) 02:13:29 --- nick: crc_ -> crc 02:13:41 That was kind of fun :-) 02:14:07 *sigh* 02:14:10 hate you 02:14:16 Why? 02:14:17 never have i had to do that 02:14:21 grrr 02:14:30 You got irritating 02:14:32 my IRC passwords have always been like that :) 02:14:42 well, you could have said sometring :) 02:14:46 It was a lucky guess 02:14:56 Hmm, perhaps I should have 02:15:03 * crc will not do that to you again 02:15:16 * crc is sorry for the inconvience 02:15:34 well, at least i got to have the pleasure of killing someone 4 times :) 02:15:45 :-) 02:15:52 I've killed people before for using my nick 02:16:03 About 10 times in the past 02:16:11 cool# 02:16:30 Not cool 02:16:30 alright, Im gonna leave 02:16:32 Ok 02:16:35 ttyl 02:17:07 bye 02:17:16 --- quit: arke ("xchg bx, bx") 02:18:45 * Serg[GPRS] recalls time when playing MP3 took full CPU power 02:19:11 I've never experienced that 02:19:30 Of course I always played MP3's on fairly modern computers 02:20:09 on P166, 128 kBit could easily suck 02:20:43 I believe it. 02:20:54 * crc wonders what arke's real name is 02:21:23 since that times, i used to 24 kBit / 11 kHz / mono 02:22:59 Found it, now I can harrass him if he decides to start that again 02:23:02 * Serg[GPRS] is converting Painkiller music to this bitrate, for my MP3 gadget 02:24:31 crc: please don't hair-ass him, it costs me damn 45 cent per megabyte ;)) 02:24:53 Sorry Serg 02:25:10 But he shouldn't have pretended to know my SSN 02:25:38 If he brings that up again, I'll complain to him privatly :-) 02:30:02 I'm going to bed now. It's 5:30AM, and I have to sleep for a little while before morning comes 02:30:09 g'night all! 02:30:14 --- quit: crc ("http://www.retroforth.org/dev/beta_releases/retroforth-7.beta4.tar.gz") 03:27:45 --- join: qF0x (C00K13S@cp12172-a.roose1.nb.home.nl) joined #forth 03:28:00 --- quit: qFox (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 03:30:33 OO goes with Forth like ice-cream goes with liver 03:44:05 i never had that 03:45:10 --- nick: qF0x -> qFox 03:45:17 my monitor died damnit 03:45:29 have to work on 15 or 14" now, instead of 19" 03:45:32 it hurts >:( 03:50:41 i sympathise 03:50:49 going to small monitor can suck 03:50:57 --- quit: Serg[GPRS] (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 03:51:13 * aum is feeling more and more that OO goes totally against the grain of forth 06:37:53 --- join: Topaz (~top@spc1-horn1-6-0-cust117.cosh.broadband.ntl.com) joined #forth 07:03:23 --- join: Tomasu (~moose@S010600045a4c73cc.ed.shawcable.net) joined #forth 07:11:45 --- quit: Topaz (Remote closed the connection) 07:35:33 --- join: Serg[GPRS] (~z@193.201.231.126) joined #forth 08:12:13 * Tomasu is away: Just casue 08:55:01 --- join: skylan_ (~sjh@nwc47-31.nwconx.net) joined #forth 09:12:42 --- quit: skylan (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 09:17:51 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 09:22:28 --- quit: Serg[GPRS] () 10:37:23 --- join: asau (~root@217.16.31.100) joined #forth 10:37:45 Dobryjj vecher! 10:43:34 Well. 10:44:12 I'll be back in an hour or two. 10:44:16 --- quit: asau ("leaving") 10:49:54 * Tomasu is back (gone 02:37:41) 11:16:50 --- nick: Tomasu -> TomasuBored 12:12:45 --- join: ASau (~asau@158.250.48.204) joined #forth 12:12:51 Dobryjj vecher! 12:36:12 --- nick: skylan_ -> skylan 12:54:11 Doughbridge voucher! 12:57:57 --- join: Bullrush (~Bull@196.44.2.197) joined #forth 13:02:08 --- part: Bullrush left #forth 13:02:41 --- join: Bullrush (~Bull@196.44.2.197) joined #forth 13:29:05 --- join: Topaz (~top@spc1-horn1-6-0-cust117.cosh.broadband.ntl.com) joined #forth 13:34:03 --- join: slava (~slava@CPE00096ba44261-CM000e5cdfda14.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 13:52:21 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 14:15:48 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 14:17:19 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@66-74-218-202.san.rr.com) joined #forth 14:17:25 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja 14:18:46 --- join: ASau (~asau@158.250.48.204) joined #forth 14:18:55 Dobryjj vecher. 14:29:39 ASau, do you use catch/throw? 14:31:11 Never. 14:32:00 Is anyone interested in GNU Sci Lib in Forth? 14:35:27 Yeehaa!! I found my old Dolphin 0.4.0 and pre-redesigned implementation of 0.5.0 source code!! w00t! 14:36:23 Too bad I don't have a printer; I'd print out the sources and archive them. 14:46:01 kc5tja. "Only wimps use tape backup: _real_ men just upload their important stuff on ftp, and let the rest of the world mirror it" (Linus Torvalds) 14:46:58 A. I'm not Linus Torvalds. B. I don't have any software who would even remotely want to mirror this stuff as yet, if ever. C. His "advice" was given in jest, and in jest ONLY. It was a JOKE. It was not meant to be taken seriously. 14:47:16 I can guarantee you Torvalds has tons of backups on his premises. 14:48:07 kc5tja> why print, back it up to floppy/cd, unless you wanted to plaster it on your ceiling or something :p 14:49:23 kc5tja. I know it was joke. 14:49:35 qFox: Because CDs don't last forever. Neither do floppies. Technically neither does paper, BUT, we have papyrus documents that are still around. Thus, paper is known to last a LOT longer than either CD or floppy. 14:49:59 actually, thats not really a fair comparison 14:50:10 paper has been around slightly longer then cd's 14:50:16 For the purposes of archival, it's not only fair, it's pertinent. 14:50:42 hrm, do we want to have this discussion at all? :) 14:50:54 qFox: I'll leave that question for you to answer. 14:51:01 hm. ok. you're right. 14:51:04 :p 14:51:20 :) 14:51:25 now if you excuse me, i'm gonna kill robert for a sec 14:51:34 Hehe 14:51:36 btw, wanna see my new forth? 14:51:40 its rox0ring... now 14:52:56 well ok, i shouldnt kill robert over this. i WAS the one who used a word before i defined it 14:54:27 i guess i do find some reward in finding the cause of a bug after searching for it for hours 14:56:25 * kc5tja is currently hacking on the TTA processor emulator. 14:56:31 So if I seem afk, that's why. :) 15:00:18 easiest way i've found to get forth up to gcc's speed - write lotsa primitives in c 15:00:44 not exactly pure to the cause though 15:01:46 aum: I beg to differ. 15:02:01 aum: The #1 method for writing software in Forth is to take time-consuming words and recode them as CODE words. 15:02:07 CODE can be in assembly, or in C, -- doesn't matter. 15:02:23 what forths support CODE words in C ? 15:02:56 Well, pretty much any Forth that can link against shared C libraries. 15:03:02 (e.g., I use SDL in my GForth code) 15:03:21 But you're taking me too literally. 15:03:31 so in gforth, you don't hack the 'prim' file? 15:03:34 It is not the specific mechanics I'm talking about -- only the general concept. 15:03:38 No. 15:04:10 Starting with GForth 0.6.2, if you have the ffcall library installed *prior* to configuring GForth, you can link into external C libraries. 15:04:26 yes 15:04:33 i've played with fflib.fs 15:20:34 --- quit: Klaw () 15:36:37 --- quit: Topaz (Remote closed the connection) 15:45:01 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 15:52:30 re tathi 15:53:37 Hi kc5tja 15:54:40 God kvaell, tathi. 15:54:58 Hey ASau 15:55:17 kc5tja: have you used that non-recursive make framework much? 15:59:53 tathi: Which one? 16:00:05 Oh, sorry. The one you have on your site. 16:00:25 http://www.falvotech.com/repos/nrm-framework/ 16:05:17 I have used it extensively when building software for a client. 16:05:19 I was just playing around with the idea again, and it seems like, if you set a variable more than once (with :=, anyway), that you can't use it in commands. 16:05:29 I currently am not using it, as it is incompatible with the Forth development process I'm using now. 16:06:10 Most details of nrm-framework need to be directed to Billy Tanksley, its primary developer. 16:06:23 ok, that's what I thought. 16:06:24 I just use it, and I know it works for me, after some project-specific tweaks. 16:06:36 it's pretty simple anyway. 16:06:47 I'm pretty sure I'm seeing a bug in make. 16:06:55 Yeah, it's beyond me how it actually works. I know only the most basic theory of its operation. 16:07:28 Make is damn opaque for me. I would like to someday write a better tool. 16:07:29 * aum imagines developers of 'make' hunting bugs - 'make make' ... grrr... 'make make'... grrr 16:08:11 kc5tja: really? I didn't think it was all that complex... 16:08:23 It was pretty much what I had come up with... 16:09:08 make is already obsolete - refer http://www.scons.org/ 16:09:20 scons looks like a very impressive tool 16:09:21 aum: I'm NOT a python fan. 16:09:31 I find it's very slow. 16:09:40 tathi: i have no objection if you want to write a make replacement in forth 16:09:57 tathi: Speed is irrelavent to being a damn good language. Python rocks. 16:10:02 tathi: but doesn't it cache stuff and speed up later? 16:10:22 well, my speed objection is that the python interpreter takes over a second to start up on my machine. 16:10:28 tathi: And if Python is so slow, why is it the foundation of one of the most popular web site hosting and development platforms of all time? Zope! 16:10:30 I'm not really willing to wait that long for much of anything. 16:10:42 tathi: What?! On my box, it is *instant*. 16:10:47 what's 1 second overhead for a make, which usually takes at least a few secs anyway? 16:11:16 hi all 16:11:20 aum: usually I'm just using an assembler, which is practically instant. 16:11:26 kc5tja, there is a difference between perceived and actual performance 16:11:37 tathi: well write a make replacement in asembler then? 16:11:38 kc5tja, i think perceived performance is more important, and it can be achieved by small, modular designs 16:11:40 kc5tja: hmm...maybe it's only the first time it starts up. 16:11:46 kc5tja, that do minimal computation to achieve a goal. 16:11:58 slava: as you can see, we're having a 'make' and language flamewar 16:12:17 aum: writing a make replacement doesn't sound like much fun :( 16:12:24 i like ant. 16:12:29 but its mainly for java 16:12:41 aum: I'm not trying to flame, I'm just whining :) 16:13:13 The trick to writing a Make replacement is to just write purpose built scripts across several *modern* projects, then unify/generalize them by refactoring. 16:16:23 * kc5tja just realized something -- because I'm using a TTA architecture, although the Forth environment is not expected to use this regularly, it can now use the top of data stack as an address register as well! 16:17:00 Actually, never mind -- my ALU inputs are tied to the data stack still. 16:17:06 But if it weren't, I could do it. 16:17:13 Something to keep in mind if necessary. 16:39:50 Hmm...but I do need to push and pop the stack when doing math. This is an issue. I do need separate ALU input(s) anyway... 16:43:16 oh bother. It's not a bug, it's an artifact of make being a two-pass thing. 16:49:20 Heh 16:52:03 I just love it when my user model is wrong :) 16:53:44 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@h000094d30ba2.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 16:57:00 hi Herkamire 16:57:54 hi slava :) 17:09:12 --- join: tathi_ (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 17:09:19 --- quit: tathi (Nick collision from services.) 17:09:24 --- nick: tathi_ -> tathi 17:17:33 --- quit: qFox ("meh ircii's netsplit detection appearantly sux ^^") 17:23:38 --- part: Bullrush left #forth 17:29:32 --- join: doublec (~doublec@coretech.co.nz) joined #forth 17:44:39 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@pc9bdn1d.ppp.FCC.NET) joined #forth 17:44:39 --- mode: ChanServ set +o TheBlueWizard 17:48:46 re Herkamire, TheBlueWizard 17:48:50 * kc5tja is away getting food. BRB 17:49:02 hiya kc5tja 17:53:15 Guten Morgen, TheBlueWizard and doublec. 17:54:16 * TheBlueWizard realizes his error 17:54:20 :) 17:54:25 kc5tja hiya 17:54:29 I was *just* going to comment on that... 17:54:31 ASau hiya 17:54:52 this new greeting discipline proves hard to follow :) 17:55:13 tathi hiya...I somehow expect you'd do that :) 17:55:48 What discipline? 17:55:53 Why discipline? 17:55:59 ASau: RPN greetings :) 17:57:23 I'm neither Polish nor reverse. 17:57:32 Is ASau a Russian? I do not know Russian word for hello 17:57:53 Zdravstvujj(te). 17:58:14 Zdravstvujj (sing.), zdravstvujjte (pl.). 17:59:05 2004-07-11 16:06 In case you didn't notice, I now use Forth's ordering for greeting people (plus localization :) 18:00:21 that's correct :) 18:01:06 ASau zdravstvujj (gee it is long and tricky to type :) 18:04:15 In such a wording, in this order greeting sounds hastily. It's more convenient to say: "Zdravstvujj, ." 18:04:55 hey, I said I am greeting everyone in RPN style, ok? :) 18:05:19 I've understood. 18:06:29 I'm not sure how it's in English. In Russian addressing is independent of imperative. 18:06:41 Consider you have separate stacks. 18:07:04 How is it called? 18:07:13 "Env. dependency"? 18:07:33 in Forth, one is called a parameter stack and other one is a return stack 18:09:24 In this case, "ASau" deals with parameter stack only, "Zdrav." deals with return stack only. 18:11:53 um...the way I see it, "ASau" is an item on the parameter stack, and the word "zdravstvujj" does something to that item....does that make sense Forth wise? 18:14:14 Reasonable. 18:15:01 :) 18:15:12 How can I translate "%12g" C formatting to ANS-F? 18:16:13 hmm....I don't know any ANS-F floating math words, so I can't translate that...sorry! 18:17:53 Yet another reason to read ANS. 18:18:27 :) 18:19:09 uh...yeah...and some hates ANS-F :) 18:22:57 Crazy idea: substitute all these variables with exponents: x -> exp(x'). 18:23:36 So all intermediate results are f. p. n., but i/o is done with fixed point. 18:26:44 Bad idea, really. 18:26:51 This can't be done. 18:27:05 heh 18:30:58 What happened to forth.org? 18:32:32 works for me... 18:33:12 It does not for me. 18:33:39 I get 206.55.232.73 18:33:49 (if that's any help) 18:34:00 Now it works. 18:34:36 Oh, forth.org gives .72, which doesn't work. 18:34:42 Did you try www.forth.org? 18:36:07 'T works with "www." 18:36:41 back 18:36:53 Is C's "%g" FS. or FE. ? 18:38:44 Or is it F. ? 18:42:25 An unadorned %g is translated as F. I believe. 18:42:34 But that is about all I know. 18:43:29 "%NNg" should involve PRECISION SET-PRECISION I think. 18:45:09 Never used either in my coding, so I don't particularly know. 19:04:12 what's the C function to fill a memory region with zeros? 19:04:20 bzero 19:04:44 or memset 19:04:56 doublec! 19:05:06 hi slava! 19:05:27 I've finally learned: memset --> FILL , bzero --> ERASE 19:05:29 thanks 19:05:56 I can never remember memset() 19:06:07 should be called memfill 19:06:12 also, memset is ANSI, bzero is not. So it is not in all C implementatoins 19:06:13 doublec, how is your todo list app? 19:06:39 slava, I will be finishing it off tonight. 19:06:52 slava, it works but looks ugly. I lack web design skills :) 19:06:52 doublec, cool. 19:07:27 --- join: jDoctor (~rex@pcp08550359pcs.manass01.va.comcast.net) joined #forth 19:07:36 doublec, me and jDoctor were discussing some ideas 19:07:40 for a 'to do' app 19:08:02 doublec, like a programmer's to do 19:08:20 cool, what sort of things? 19:08:26 doublec, it would manage tasks, some tasks would depend on others. when a task was complete, the tasks that depend on it are added to the 'upcoming to do' list 19:08:42 doublec, when you mark a task as finished, it goes in the changelog. 19:09:00 doublec, there would be some kind of integration with a source language too 19:09:09 doublec, in factor, each task would roughly correspond to a word 19:09:18 but it could encompass other things too 19:09:20 Nice idea. It shouldn't be difficult to add. I already have nested tasks (ie. hierarchacial - which I can never spell) 19:09:33 I cant either 19:09:46 doublec, i'll do a cvs commit when run-file works in native 19:10:06 slava, ok thanks. 19:10:09 so yah, it recursively goes into the smaller tasks inside of the task which you started with, but you may not know those smaller tasks when you start. 19:10:53 doublec, the idea is to have a top-down to do list for your coding project, to complement the process of bottom up word design and testing 19:11:44 yes, that makes sense. I'll add that to the todo list for sure. 19:11:53 doublec, i'd love to help 19:12:48 slava, What I'll do is finish off what is there at the moment. Commit the code somwhere and then we can all hack at it. 19:14:14 which hopefully will be tonight. 19:14:40 doublec, update cvs 19:14:43 doublec, it should work now 19:14:47 Adding the web interface is easy. It's really developing the underlying words that manage the todo list and the storage of that data. 19:14:55 slava, thanks. 19:14:59 doublec, does it store the to do list in the image? 19:15:10 doublec, did you look at apter's XY? 19:15:18 i like how its so factor-influenced :) 19:15:44 yes, I saw his posting. Very factor like :) I find K very hard to read though. 19:16:00 kc5tja is a fan of K :) 19:16:44 it's not too bad. I found J harder. I used to program in APL quite a few years back. I find it hard to read APL now though. 19:17:28 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 19:18:03 slava, I still have the problem of the Java Factor hanging at startup. 19:18:09 hmm. 19:18:11 let me check. 19:18:20 i guess the handlign of errors on startup is broken, and i forgot to add a file to cvs 19:18:46 ya debugger.factor was missing. update 19:20:05 slava, that fixed it. Thanks. 19:20:21 doublec, notice i got rid of the debugger loop 19:21:14 ooh, so you have. How do errors work now? 19:21:23 try typing 65 car or something 19:22:06 this is just the top-level 'catch' handler. use .c to look at the catch stack 19:23:21 cool. 19:23:42 this will work: [ "hello world" throw ] [ print ] catch 19:23:50 or [ .c ] [ drop ] catch 19:24:48 nice. Does the catch block always get called? I notice the drop there removes an 'f'. 19:25:07 --- join: arke (crc@0-1pool176-57.nas6.philadelphia1.pa.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 19:25:11 yes. its a bit quirky but i think it makes sense: 19:25:17 if no error occurs, its called with an error of 'f' 19:25:28 if an error occurs, the datastack is restored, and the error is pushed, and the catch block is called. 19:26:08 ok, that sounds reasonable 19:26:17 this lets you use it like unwind-protect 19:26:22 closing streams etc 19:26:30 eg see with-stream 19:26:31 --- nick: arke -> crc 19:27:06 very nice 19:27:21 doublec, for convinience throwing f is a no-op 19:27:24 rethrow throws the exception again? so 'f rethrow' will do nothing? 19:27:32 heh, you just answered :) 19:27:40 doublec, difference between throw and rethrow is that throw saves the stacks for :s :r :n :c 19:27:50 doublec, so think of 'throw' as throw new Exception(...) in java 19:27:57 and rethrow as throwing an existing instance of an exception 19:28:03 --- nick: crc -> crc_ 19:28:29 I take it callcc saves the catch stack as well? 19:28:34 How do you express input parsing in the stack comment? 19:28:53 --- nick: crc_ -> crc 19:29:06 madgarden, hmm i just write it in a separate comment 19:29:17 doublec, yes. 19:29:20 Hmm. 19:29:42 some would say 4 stacks is too much :) 19:29:58 Four stacks??? 19:30:08 I'd guest crc is one of those 'some' :) 19:30:09 crc, data stack, return stack, name stack, catch stack 19:30:12 Ok 19:30:24 As long as you have a good reason for them ;-) 19:30:36 yes, you never use >n n> >c c> in normal code anyway 19:30:41 * crc remebers discussing the stacks a few days ago... 19:30:44 its all hidden in higher level words 19:30:46 :-) 19:31:15 gforth has data, return, fp, local, catch 19:33:23 I get by just fine with two stacks 19:33:46 the name and catch stacks are purely library constructions, the interpreter itself only cares about data/return 19:34:25 Right 19:34:44 What's the URL for Factor? 19:34:51 factor.sf.net 19:34:55 ok 19:36:54 * crc downloads factor to play with in the morning 19:37:11 crc, maybe redownload in the morning :) 19:37:25 crc, i'm uploading a major update to the C interpreter tonight, it will be able to load source files :) 19:38:00 unless you want to use the java one now (which is full featured) 19:38:15 Ok 19:38:22 I'll redownload it in the morning 19:38:30 (I don't use Java at all!) 19:40:23 --- join: Klaw (chuck@ip68-225-228-204.oc.oc.cox.net) joined #forth 19:43:07 crc, you have better uses for the 5gb of ram it takes up? :) 19:43:39 Yes 19:44:42 I can run over 19,000 copies of RetroForth in parallel in 5GB of RAM :-) 19:52:53 well, gotta go...all bye! 19:53:03 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth 19:54:05 * crc is debugging GameForth 19:57:07 games? 19:58:34 A forth for writing games 19:59:09 It runs under Windows 20:00:44 The code for a simple game fails when the sequence of words changes... 20:05:40 crc: 19,000? 20:06:37 hi kc5tja 20:06:44 At 48k memory use, yes I can fit 19,000 copies into 5GB of RAM :-) 20:06:52 Yes, I'm a huge fan of K, and vector processing languages now. 20:06:53 Huge. 20:06:57 Not that there's a need to... 20:07:26 You have a system with 5GB of RAM? 20:07:30 It would be cool to try if I can ever get the experimental parallel stuff working well 20:07:32 No 20:08:00 slava said: crc, you have better uses for the 5gb of ram it takes up? :) 20:08:04 Refering to Java 20:08:06 :-) 20:08:25 I have 256MB of ram in this box 20:09:53 Enough for about 5,000 copies of RF to run 21:13:40 --- quit: ASau () 21:22:00 --- join: crc_ (crc@0-1pool88-28.nas48.philadelphia1.pa.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 21:22:27 --- quit: crc (Nick collision from services.) 21:22:42 --- nick: crc_ -> crc 21:58:56 --- nick: TomasuBored -> TomasuDlrrp 22:06:14 --- join: O3BEPH (~z@212.34.52.140) joined #forth 22:06:31 --- nick: O3BEPH -> Serg 22:14:04 * TomasuDlrrp is away: night 22:20:55 --- quit: doublec ("Leaving") 22:24:50 --- join: wmg (~weldon@bgp02689673bgs.flrdav01.dc.comcast.net) joined #forth 22:27:59 --- join: lalalim (~lalalim@p508AB922.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 22:34:47 --- join: segher (~segher@blueice3n1.de.ibm.com) joined #forth 22:37:08 --- quit: jDoctor (Remote closed the connection) 22:37:09 --- join: jDoctor (~rex@pcp08550359pcs.manass01.va.comcast.net) joined #forth 22:43:16 --- quit: jDoctor (Client Quit) 22:43:18 --- join: jDoctor (~rex@pcp08550359pcs.manass01.va.comcast.net) joined #forth 22:44:49 --- quit: lalalim_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 22:49:15 --- quit: Herkamire ("bed") 22:49:25 --- quit: jDoctor (Client Quit) 22:49:26 --- join: jDoctor (~rex@pcp08550359pcs.manass01.va.comcast.net) joined #forth 22:56:33 --- quit: jDoctor (Remote closed the connection) 22:56:35 --- join: jDoctor (~rex@pcp08550359pcs.manass01.va.comcast.net) joined #forth 23:08:48 --- quit: jDoctor (Client Quit) 23:08:49 --- join: jDoctor (~rex@pcp08550359pcs.manass01.va.comcast.net) joined #forth 23:08:55 --- part: Serg left #forth 23:11:56 --- quit: wmg (Remote closed the connection) 23:14:56 --- quit: jDoctor (Client Quit) 23:14:57 --- join: jDoctor (~rex@pcp08550359pcs.manass01.va.comcast.net) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/04.07.18