00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.07.17 00:00:42 --- quit: wmg ("Leaving") 00:33:28 --- quit: Sonarman ("leaving") 00:45:39 --- join: arke (arke@melrose-251-251.flexabit.net) joined #forth 01:13:30 --- quit: arke (":(){ :;:}: <--- t re ! 05:47:56 hi 05:48:20 some offtopic: 05:49:14 i need to recode filetree of MP3's to lower bitrate, saving tags 05:49:14 what proggie u'll advice me ? is where any channel about music ? 05:49:36 i'm totally frustrated, up to writing my own proggie 05:49:42 no idea 05:49:48 not really into music 05:49:55 ffmpeg? 05:50:02 ?? 05:50:07 what's it ? 05:50:12 transcoder 05:51:26 * Serg[GPRS] is googling, despite ultra xpensive traffic on cellfone 05:56:48 noticed it, by i doubt i can test every proggie on the net - here in RU bytes are xpensive, unlimit connections are rare 06:06:40 arent there quite a few ru ppl in here though? how do they do it? 06:07:51 qFox: ?? 06:08:03 well, you're not the only ru guy here are you? 06:08:09 wasnt asau ru? 06:08:21 here onle me and ASau are in RU 06:08:29 hm, i thought there were more 06:08:36 slava seems to be _from_ RU, i.i. left it 06:08:44 i.e. 06:09:31 here much more folks sink in vodka than code forth 06:09:50 hehe 06:10:05 in real life, i know only _one_ more forther here 06:10:39 well, i know none, well, boombox but he doesnt really code it. he just knows it a bit 06:11:08 * Serg[GPRS] not coded long time too - mostly Perl and PHP by now 06:30:57 --- quit: Serg[GPRS] () 06:51:19 Argh, he died. 06:52:20 My old programming teacher did some Forth in the 80s. :) 07:26:14 what are the most popular forths for windows? 07:26:16 win32forth? 07:26:37 Not sure, to be honest. 07:26:54 I only use my own Forth in Windows (that is, DOS-emulation) 07:27:01 okay 07:27:20 i need a reference forth in addition to my own 07:27:38 oh, gforth works on windows 07:28:06 Yep. 07:28:33 But I don't know how well it works with the Windows API. 07:28:50 i don't need the windows api, so that's okay 07:29:11 if it supports . f. and file io, i have what i need 07:29:57 Ah, cool. 07:30:04 It does... 07:31:57 ouch, gforthwin is a cygwin build, and interferes with the cygwin i have installed 07:32:02 better build it myself then 07:33:12 Either that or you get the DOS version. 07:46:56 titanstar> win32forth is so far the only (free) windows forth with a gui 07:47:14 gforth and bigforth and some others can run under windows but are still command line 07:47:49 and some other, wishforth winforth and one i forgot, are supposively big-ass programming environments, but i havent been able to get my hands on a copy of any of em so far so i cant tell ya 07:47:53 (and they're expensive.) 07:48:26 win32forth is bloated, but it works, is stable, and allows windows programming 07:48:42 all in all its a good environment. 07:50:10 okay 07:50:21 i prefer emacs myself, so i don't really need the gui 07:50:32 make sure you get the latest version. there are quite a few versions out there, but a lot are older 07:50:40 6.09.11 or later 07:50:43 oh 07:50:47 i got 4.something 07:51:02 exactly 07:51:03 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/win32forth/ 07:51:17 thats the development list, download links etc. 07:51:37 i wondered about the windows 3.11-style installer :) 07:51:38 Find Win32Forth distributions here; the latest version is 6.08.00 07:51:43 yah thats old :) 07:51:44 okay, thanks 07:51:46 hm 07:51:57 funny how it says 6.08 there, when i got 6.09.11 07:52:00 gforth seems to work though 07:52:10 i built it under cygwin 07:52:28 yes it works, but its commandline based. if thats fine with you then gforth is too :) 07:53:05 it is, though i think i'll check out win32forth as well to see what the options are 07:53:25 well, it has an extended dictionary to support windows programming, which is nice 08:28:06 --- join: tucknip (pickroll@dialup-4.152.162.120.Dial1.Atlanta1.Level3.net) joined #forth 08:32:04 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 09:01:04 --- join: Topaz (jonny@spc1-horn1-6-0-cust217.cosh.broadband.ntl.com) joined #forth 09:05:36 whoa 09:05:52 i'd say that took about 30 seconds 09:06:04 from a bright sunny day to pure darkness thunderstorm 09:06:52 rather impressive, even by dutch standards 09:06:57 tv blanked out 09:07:20 i'm sort of suprprised internet still works 09:07:22 ... i think 09:11:50 --- part: tucknip left #forth 09:23:44 --- join: Serg[GPRS] (~z@193.201.231.126) joined #forth 09:23:57 re 09:24:47 i solved MP3 problem, but my music gone away - it was on half-dead HDD and it became full-dead ;)) 09:26:19 hm. this is intresting. 09:26:48 in my interpreter, when i do : test ; 09:26:49 its fine 09:26:56 but when i do : test2 ; after that 09:27:01 it suddenly cant find ; 09:27:17 (the name has no influence) 09:40:26 --- quit: Serg[GPRS] ("to call on the phone i use for inet") 09:46:28 Gah 09:46:31 I missed him again. 09:48:56 i see a pattern ;) 09:49:48 * TomasuDlrrp is back (gone 11:10:14) 09:49:52 --- nick: TomasuDlrrp -> Tomasu 09:49:56 Yes, god hates us both. 09:49:57 Hi Topaz 09:50:00 er, Tomasu* 09:50:13 heh 09:50:17 hey 09:58:06 omg 09:58:14 omg? 09:58:21 i've been trying to fix this bug all day 09:58:25 Which? 09:58:32 and it turns out, i'm writing to the wrong dp variable 09:58:36 :D 09:58:37 $#@%!@#@!$# 09:58:40 Fun, fun 09:58:45 * Robert pets the fox. 09:58:58 i swear 09:58:59 :@ 10:14:38 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 10:19:58 now to locate the hidden linebreak :p 10:20:57 got it 10:20:58 yay. 10:20:59 :) 10:22:01 Oh, yay. 10:23:55 it shows a token for each action uppon entry 10:24:11 for executing, for compiling, for literal, etc 10:24:17 for calling 10:24:32 kinda funny to see threaded code done that way 10:26:41 there are some obvious problems though 10:26:59 i'm positive that kuF doesnt start with a 104 deep stack, for instance :p 10:29:46 robert> wanna see it? the image i mean? if you're not going to view i wont bother :) 10:29:54 (is ok either way) 10:30:27 Nah, it's OK. 10:30:30 I'll check later. 10:30:42 When you ported Duke Nukem 3D to it. 10:30:54 that would fall in the linux area 10:31:05 plus, why the hell would i port dn3d to anything 10:31:39 It's a fun game. :D 10:32:19 start installing windows luxboy 10:32:22 or dos 10:32:22 :p 10:36:43 hi Robert 10:36:48 (delayed reaction :D) 10:39:19 Heheh 10:39:25 Sorry, I greeted you by mistake. 10:39:31 :P 10:51:43 --- join: T0paz (~top@spc1-horn1-6-0-cust117.cosh.broadband.ntl.com) joined #forth 10:54:44 --- quit: Topaz (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 11:07:23 --- join: Serg[GPRS] (~z@193.201.231.126) joined #forth 11:07:45 re 11:25:11 * Tomasu is away: Just casue 12:15:40 --- quit: slava (Remote closed the connection) 12:23:58 cool. my depth is changing every time i look at it, appearantly :p 12:25:11 qFox: your batometer has a bubble inside 12:25:43 where's a submarine anecdote about this ;)) 12:27:00 in the beginning of XX century, newly built RU sub goes through max depth test at Baltic sea 12:27:18 hehe 12:27:28 * qFox trying to work out the bubble 12:28:27 it hits the sea bottom 20m below max design depth - hull makes cracking noises, water leaks in from everywhere 12:28:48 hm i've seen about 2 or 3 movies at least with that scenario 12:28:49 finally, all leaks stopped 12:29:14 blow the middle tank ! 12:29:28 sub shakes but no result... 12:29:32 well, in all of the movies, they managed fine ofcourse :p 12:29:41 blow all tanks ! 12:29:52 same result... batometer not moves 12:30:33 so they lay down and wait for scary death.. 12:30:58 after few howrs, the sub starts to swing hard !!!! 12:31:17 PANIC 12:31:26 guess, what it was ? 12:32:29 bubble in batometer ;))) they surfaced from first blow, but did not notice this, coz sea was absolutely still 12:32:50 they discovered this only when storm blew ;)))) 12:33:07 Haha 12:33:23 Russians... :P 12:34:12 thing is, i cant actually see my bubble 12:34:18 so i hope this made it go poof 12:34:47 grren peasants - it was right after revolution ;)) 12:34:58 i think my fdc has seen more action the past 3 days, then it has had in the past 2 years 12:35:06 qFox: :D 12:35:16 qFox: Mine had some adventures when debugging that code - trust me 12:35:21 stupid bubble 12:35:39 i think it just grew 12:35:53 now i cant even use the stacks properly. oh joy 12:36:04 --- part: Serg[GPRS] left #forth 12:36:11 bubye 12:36:51 Hehehe 12:36:55 Such a joy 12:37:11 i partially blame you and your damned values for that btw. 12:37:17 they dont make this easier 12:37:44 oh fuck 12:37:45 i gtg 12:37:51 later. 12:44:08 Doei 13:13:37 --- join: Bullrush (~Bull@196.44.2.197) joined #forth 13:21:38 --- quit: Bullrush ("Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/") 13:32:44 --- join: slava (~slava@CPE00096ba44261-CM000e5cdfda14.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 13:32:45 hi 13:36:26 --- join: crc (crc@0-1pool88-10.nas48.philadelphia1.pa.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 13:36:28 --- quit: T0paz ("Leaving") 13:44:11 hi crc 13:45:23 Hi slava 13:45:38 What's new? 13:46:47 working on catch/throw. 13:47:46 Are they for error handling? 13:49:28 yes 13:51:17 Factor seems to get more and more complex each time you work on it :-) 13:52:22 catch/throw is a dozen lines of code... 13:52:57 i'm aiming for a level of compexity/simplicity in between forth and scheme :) 13:53:16 I see 13:53:29 It looks like an interesting system 13:53:38 Does it still require Java to run? 13:53:54 no, i've been working on the native interpreter for the last few weeks 13:54:28 Cool 13:54:50 I'll have to try it out then 13:54:50 * crc does not support use of Java 13:56:05 i like java 13:57:30 It's too bloated and slow for my taste 13:58:00 I liked it back in the days of JDK 1.0/1.1, but not beyond that 13:58:34 well it has its weak points but so does any language 13:59:31 Agreed 13:59:45 for instance C can be a %*#($& pain 13:59:50 But for what I do, the weak points outweigh the good 14:00:01 C is normally a pain :-) 14:00:13 But it can be useful at times 14:00:30 * crc looks around to see if i440r is watching ;-) 14:00:53 my goal with factor is to write a nice web app development framework that is not bloated... 14:03:23 How well does it work? 14:04:15 the http server runs in java factor only at the moment. i haven't added sockets to the native one yet. 14:04:27 I see 14:04:43 today i'm working on catch/throw and file I/O in native factor 14:09:41 Today I'm working on a Windows Forth for writing games :-) 14:11:08 neat 14:11:14 have you used win32forth? 14:11:32 Yes 14:11:40 It's bloated and overly complex 14:12:07 Mine is based on the new RetroForth/Windows DLL, and uses DirectDraw 14:13:46 Win32Forth = 4,339 words, not counting constants and variables 14:13:55 It's far more complex than it needs to be 14:14:08 RetroForth/Windows DLL = 100 words, constants, and variables 14:14:22 cool 14:14:36 i have something like a thousand words 14:14:41 GameForth will add maybe 200 words, constants, and variables -- all designed for writing games 14:14:48 I'm a minimalist 14:14:54 but this includes the http server and misc other stuff 14:14:58 the core is a couple of hundred words 14:15:55 Ok 14:18:22 do you have an FP stack, locals stack,..etc 14:18:50 Two stacks: Return and Data 14:19:09 Two vocabularies: Forth and Compiler Macros 14:19:16 cool 14:19:21 No need for locals, etc here 14:19:21 compiler macros is like immediates? 14:19:26 Yup 14:19:29 i don't have locals either. 14:19:46 i have 4 stacks though -- data, call, name, catch. the last two are almost never used directly 14:19:48 But since they're linked into a separate vocabulary, there's no need to deal with header bits, etc 14:19:58 call = return? 14:20:25 yup 14:20:48 also i don't have variables in the conventional sense 14:21:02 oh? 14:21:08 How do you do them? 14:21:44 the namestack holds hashtables. get ( name -- value ) searches the namestack top to bottom for a hashtable containing 'name'. set ( value name -- ) sets the 'name' entry in the top of the namestack to 'value' 14:22:00 the global variables are stored in a hashtable that's always at the bottom of the namestack 14:22:30 Interesting 14:22:33 the parser for example, while parsing, pushes vocabularies on the namestack 14:22:50 so when it sees a word in the input stream, it calls 'get' to look up the word in the vocabularies 14:23:11 * Tomasu is back (gone 02:57:59) 14:23:12 * Tomasu is away: Just casue 14:23:44 its not as efficient as traditional variables since there's string comparisons involved in the lookups. 14:26:08 ok i want to do ( try catch error -- error catch ). 14:26:13 how should I do this? 14:26:17 rot drop swap 14:26:28 -rot nip 14:26:44 or...? 14:27:38 I'd use -rot nip because it's cleaner 14:27:48 i guess. 14:27:52 I define : -rot rot rot ; :-) 14:28:02 Me too 14:28:10 : nip swap drop ; 14:28:19 : 1+ 1 + ; (defined when I need it) 14:28:40 And so on -- as little assembly as possible, unless the assembly is cleaner than the Forth 14:28:54 that's a good approach. 14:29:13 i minimize what I write in C. eg the text interpreter is entirely in factor. 14:30:15 My interpreter is in assembly 14:30:25 due to bootstrapping? 14:30:28 Yup 14:30:48 the only reason i could do it in factor is i already had the java interpreter, so i could cross-compile an image 14:31:07 So Factor has a VM and an image? 14:31:27 yes. 14:31:35 current sizes: VM: 16kb, image: 85kb 14:32:34 like i said, in terms of size forth < factor < scheme :) 14:32:45 < lisp < everything else < java :-) 14:32:45 Current size of RetroForth DLL: 6.5k, memory footprint: ~48k 14:32:48 :-) 14:32:50 nice. 14:33:02 my image is just a memory dump 14:33:05 Actually .NET might be bigger than Java :-) 14:33:17 but the memory usage is a bit higher since I use libc for a few things like I/O 14:33:22 i think its 190kb or so. 14:33:40 Nothing wrong with that 14:34:08 * crc looks around again -- i440r hates C 14:34:37 hmm. performance of throw/catch is not very critical is it? 14:35:05 No 14:35:50 here it is: 14:35:50 : catch ( try catch -- ) 14:35:51 [ >c drop call f c> call ] callcc1 14:35:51 ( try catch error ) rot swap drop ( error catch ) call ; 14:35:51 : throw ( error -- ) 14:35:53 [ save-error c> call ] when* ; 14:36:26 [ something dangerous ] [ handle exception ] catch 14:36:37 "Error!" throw 14:36:40 f throw ( no-op ) 14:36:56 [ ... fopen ... ] [ ... fclose ... throw ] catch 14:37:09 if no error occurred, catch block is called with an error of 'f' (f means false -- its just a null pointer). 14:39:14 Interesting 14:39:25 i think its similar to the ANS implementation 14:39:37 I still think that -rot nip looks better though 14:39:42 heheh :) 14:39:52 ANS has 0 throw as a no-op etc 14:40:09 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@207.111.96.101) joined #forth 14:40:09 --- mode: ChanServ set +o TheBlueWizard 14:40:24 GameForth has finally run a simple program :-) 14:41:19 cool! 14:41:21 graphics? 14:41:26 Yup 14:41:44 I can use the arrow keys to draw lines on the screen :-) 14:41:49 will you support opengl for graphics? 14:41:50 awesome 14:41:52 Set pixels, and so on 14:42:00 Right now it's using DirectDraw 14:42:04 crc, will EMIT eventually do graphics output too? 14:42:07 crc, an all-graphical forth :) 14:42:07 or direct3d? 14:42:09 OpenGL, libSDL, etc are possible 14:42:23 Eventually, yes it will be all graphical 14:42:40 RetroForth 4.x/5.x/early 6.x used a graphical emit 14:42:50 So this is semi-familiar territory 14:43:09 Of course, going beyond 8-bit colors is a little different for me ;-) 14:43:36 I can also play .wav files now 14:43:47 nice 14:44:02 Next up: load & render bitmaps 14:44:24 I still have the text console that I can pop up anytime for editing code 14:45:06 make a graphical console :) :) 14:45:08 Eventually I'll do a version using libSDL for Linux 14:45:10 I will 14:45:15 But that'll take a little time 14:45:22 I have to deal with font rendering, etc 14:45:27 freetype! 14:45:40 Does FreeType work under Windows? 14:45:42 or use kc's 8x8 c64-style font ;) 14:45:43 yes. 14:45:50 I'll take a look at it 14:46:09 RetroForth/Native 6.30 can use kc's c64 style font 14:46:37 But the font he did doesn't scale properly on higher color depths 14:46:52 I'm using 16bit color now 14:49:50 * crc needs to finish the hooks between the event loop and RetroForth as well 14:54:04 Oh, well, enough GameForth development for today 14:54:51 What 14:54:57 What's special about a Game Forth? 14:55:22 A version of RetroForth/Windows designed for use in writing games 14:55:38 For scripting, or for writing the games themselves? 14:55:44 Writing the game itself 14:55:56 I can already use RetroForth as a scripting language 14:57:07 It'll be a very small game development system once complete :-) 14:58:44 Hehe. I actually made my DOS Forth a bit game friendler, that is, added graphics support. ;) 14:59:48 This is being designed specifically for game development under Windows 15:06:11 I have to go -- time to buy more food :-) 15:06:16 --- quit: crc ("http://www.retroforth.org/dev/beta_releases/retroforth-7.beta4.tar.gz") 15:57:33 --- join: aum (~aum@port-204-54-210.fastadsl.net.nz) joined #forth 16:14:12 --- join: crc (crc@0-1pool176-17.nas6.philadelphia1.pa.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 16:22:39 --- quit: slava (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 16:23:28 all bye! 16:23:38 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth 18:00:58 --- quit: crc ("http://www.retroforth.org/dev/beta_releases/retroforth-7.beta4.tar.gz") 18:03:10 --- join: thin (thin@66.114.33.57) joined #forth 18:03:10 --- mode: ChanServ set +o thin 18:05:40 --- part: thin left #forth 18:10:00 --- join: thin (thin@66.114.33.57) joined #forth 18:10:00 --- mode: ChanServ set +o thin 18:16:46 where is os1.ef 18:16:59 anyone got the url 18:27:59 Hi thin 18:28:10 What's os1.ef? 18:28:11 --- quit: breno ("Lost terminal") 18:28:39 kc5tja's 1st OS in a kestrel emulator 18:28:43 for the x86 18:29:15 Oh... It's not linked to from the Kestrel page? 18:31:06 might be in the tarballs but this person's comp doesn't handle those files 18:31:37 "This person"? You're IRCing from someone else's place? 18:32:04 no i'm permanently on irc with a shell account and screen 18:32:31 i never truely started idling until i started using irssi :D 18:35:06 nevermind i got over my laziness and downloaded it on my shell account 18:35:18 Hehe, same here, except I use a local shell 18:35:19 lazy because i'm real fucking tired 18:35:35 But I run irssi in screen, so I can still access it if I should ever leave my house. 18:35:46 Oh, and of course also from other computers. 18:36:05 maybe that's not a good thing 18:36:09 :P 18:36:14 i only hang on one channel 18:36:29 and there's only 2 other ppl on that hcannel usually 18:37:23 * Robert hangs in like 20 channels 18:37:31 i treat it more of an IM deal nowadays 18:37:35 Actually I try to keep it around 20 18:37:43 As an irssi user you know why ;) 18:37:49 heh 18:37:52 * Robert isn't a fan of IM 18:38:07 i'm not a pro irssi user yet, i dont know how to go beyond 9 channels 18:38:10 there are actually patches out there to make irssi have hotkeys for more than 20 channels :) 18:38:30 titanstar: But that's for geeks! 18:38:32 thin: ctrl-q, w and so forth 18:39:17 Robert: indeed. we can have none of that, can we? :) 18:39:27 Anyway, Esc a is so nice. 18:39:41 i just do alt-1 etc 18:39:49 titanstar: Right! By the way, I'm adding a word to define brainfuck word in my Forth. 18:39:55 oh, sorry, that is alt-q, alt-w, not ctrl 18:39:59 bf: x +++ ; 18:40:08 Would create the word x that increases TOS with 3. 18:40:13 heheh 18:40:14 And so forth... 18:40:28 Like I said - we don't need any geeks in here. 18:41:00 right.. geeks and tinkerers are gay 18:41:10 yup 18:41:19 and people using weird languages as well 18:41:22 Robert: is it wise to be joined ot 20 channels? 18:41:27 to* 18:42:30 Wise in what way? 18:42:55 i found that being joined to many channels just wasted a lot of time switching between windows 18:43:01 It's excellent if you want to improve your social skills. 18:43:04 or reading inane stuff 18:43:09 lol 18:43:12 Ah, they're not all that active. 18:43:29 are you being funny? "improve your social skills thru irc!" 18:44:26 #osdev is active but fairly inane 18:44:31 same for #asm and #assembler 18:44:34 hell 18:44:37 same for #forth ;) 18:44:43 nah 18:44:50 #forth does alright when the forthers speak 18:44:57 like kc5tja 18:45:02 Am I being funny? I don't know... 18:45:12 I'm no Forther? 18:45:42 are you? what are you doing in forth? 18:45:52 what are your long-term forth goals? 18:47:38 To code a Forth program and send the computer with it to another star. 18:47:39 --- quit: aum (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 18:48:21 assume for the moment that i'm not trying to start a flamewar here (because i'm not) 18:48:28 feel free to answer honestly 18:49:21 Well, that was honest. But I realize the chances that I will realize them are small. I am however working on step 1 (battery-powered Forth computer with radio link) 18:49:33 imo, a forther is someone who's planning on doing actual things in forth, as opposed to just tinkering around with forth or creating forths in other languages. 18:50:07 which basically means not many ppl on this hcannel are forthers 18:50:42 the numbers are dynamic though 18:50:57 some may decide to persue more specific goals etc 18:51:17 battery-powered forth computer with radio link 18:51:20 thats definitely a great goal 18:51:24 thats a sweet goal 18:51:32 That's why I'm doing it. 18:51:35 how far along are you 18:52:08 I've got the radio link design done, and has started to build it. 18:52:44 The concept is pretty much figured out, I just have to implement it. Since I did a similar thing before I don't think it will be very hard. 18:52:46 what are you going to use for the cpu 18:52:58 A microcontroller, Forth will run in a VM. 18:53:30 forth is already a vm its redundant to say it'll run in a vm.. 18:53:55 Thinking about a PIC or something for the power managment (turning everything on and off), since those things can run on almost nothing (like 1nA) 18:54:36 Not really, those things have code memory in Flash memory (not writable by code), so traditional Forth approaches are hard. 18:54:55 how much memory 18:55:05 not a lot 18:55:17 Usually a few k words of program memory, and between 64b and 1kB of RAM. 18:55:31 ooh thats a lot 18:55:36 I do have lots of external EEPROM though, so I will have plenty of that (for program storage). 18:55:39 It is. 18:55:54 My old Forth system ran fine with about 100 bytes of RAM. 18:58:39 sure but you should be able to fit irc, ftp, telnet, web browser all into the few k 18:58:45 right on the microcontroller 18:59:00 plently of room for it really 18:59:03 The Forth programs on it will most likely be doing things like storing messages for forwarding (as digital data or morse code). 18:59:15 Yes, but the big problem is the data link of about 20bps. 18:59:33 then it's more like an IM ;) 18:59:37 Most of these things aren't practical. IRC and telnet are, but not the rest. 18:59:41 20 bit per second? what kind of link is this? 18:59:42 or email 18:59:46 titanstar: radio 18:59:56 titanstar: Don't laugh - morse code receiver with tone decoder circuit. :) 19:00:02 really slow radio internet 19:00:07 ouch 19:00:14 you can get faster internet thru radio can't you? 19:00:16 i can do faster rates with ultrasound :) 19:00:23 Hehe, I know... 19:00:24 And yes. 19:00:26 i read about ham radio connecting to the internet 19:00:28 But I know of no simple way. 19:00:33 pretty sure it was faster than 20bps 19:00:57 can't you by integrated wlan chips these days? 19:01:06 I'm using shortwave. 19:01:09 --- join: crc (crc@0-1pool176-39.nas6.philadelphia1.pa.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 19:01:10 or something like bumblebee (i believe) 19:01:13 So it needs to be slow. 19:01:17 ok, you need long range comms? 19:01:20 As I can't take much bandwidth. 19:01:43 titanstar: Neptune is far away. ;) 19:01:50 But really, I don't NEED it, but why not? 19:01:58 hmm 19:02:03 If my network can cover the entire Europe, I won't say no. 19:02:12 well i was originally thinking of your system as somethign a mountain man could be able to use to stay in touch with the internet 19:02:27 but sounds more like something you'll launch into space 19:02:35 I won't use shortwave in space. :) 19:02:40 bleh 19:02:41 right 19:02:42 That's not practical. 19:02:55 But really, it will be easy to implement other protocols. 19:02:59 For example morse code. 19:03:14 Which means you can interface it with just your head and a normal radio. 19:03:24 Imagine that, coding Forth using morse code. 19:03:24 yeah 19:03:28 hah 19:03:46 the coding pace would just be about right ;) 19:03:58 whats morse for : 19:04:13 or do you have to do C O L O N 19:04:42 There are some special characters you could use. 19:04:54 Like ; could be .-.-. (end of message) or something. 19:05:21 But I don't think that will be very practical - timing characters might get too hard. 19:05:36 Since it's very easy to send something like "w ord" instead of "word". 19:05:55 A human can correct that automatically of course, but for a computer it is worse. 19:06:03 has there been any work done on static checking of stack effects of forth words, by the way? 19:06:14 What is that? 19:06:22 like warning if the stack effects of a word doesn't match the stack effect comment 19:06:30 Oh. 19:06:41 or possibly warn if there's unwanted effects on the return stack 19:06:47 you know.. it's not that hard to make any personal project an actually useful project, useful to thousands if not millions of people.. just requires a little more actual thought expended to determining the project scope rather than being lazy at that precise moment 19:06:56 I am in the process of writing an optimizing Forth compiler, it would detect such errors. 19:07:11 Or could, at least, if I made it parse the stack comments. 19:07:12 how would it do that? 19:07:31 yeah, i it could be added 19:07:48 but is there any forths out there that do this currently? 19:08:13 Since keeping track of the stack is essential for the optimizer, it will be easy to implement. 19:08:15 heh it would be pretty unforthish by chuck moore's standard to do anything of that sort 19:08:30 to even have stack comments in the first place heh 19:08:31 i guess 19:09:04 i don't really find much need for stack comments when your words are one liners of code 19:09:06 I know, but cross-compiling Forth for a harvard architecture microcontroller... That's not going to be entirely FPC (Forth-Politically Correct) 19:09:31 how so? 19:09:33 but my limited experience with forth tells me that a lot of bugs has to do with forgetting things on the stacks - but this might not be the case for more experienced forthers 19:09:47 titanstar: it all depends on your coding style 19:09:58 titanstar: That does happen sometimes. :) 19:10:02 the 3 main rules for coding with forth 19:10:07 I think they can be pretty handy anyway, they don't destroy anything. 19:10:10 1) never pass more than 2 parameters to a word 19:10:37 hmm, okay 19:10:39 2) never write more than one line of code for a word (This is not C for fricks sake) 19:10:51 3) never juggle more than 3 items on the stack 19:11:04 3) never juggle more than 3 items on the stack (for a given word) 19:11:52 by following those rules as much as you can, you'll be forced to factor your code 19:12:06 i see 19:12:17 until your code is a beautiful modular piece of art 19:12:31 --- quit: juhammed (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 19:12:51 anyways, writing smaller words allows for MUCH easier debugging 19:13:08 And keeping the stack size down does even more. 19:13:29 Even a 3-level stack can get nast to follow after a while. 19:13:41 sure but you don't realy need to deal with more than 3 stack items inside a word, unless the word is too long 19:13:48 in which case its time to refactor the word 19:14:03 a forth coder doesn't think in terms of whats on the stack 19:14:09 he thinks in terms of the words 19:14:16 i.e. you don't need to worry about what's on the stack 19:14:21 as long as the words are doing their jobs 19:14:48 You need to think about what's on the stack. :) 19:14:51 forth isn't about the stack its about the words 19:15:03 the stack is the means for the words to pass information to each other 19:15:09 the programming centers around the words 19:15:34 you definitely don't need to worry about whats on the stack aside from the specific stack items (never more htan 3) that the particular word you are coding requires 19:15:37 Sure it does, but the stacks are an essential part of the programming still. 19:15:39 okay, i guess i haven't been following those rules 19:15:58 but i find it hard to see how to refactor things like this 19:15:59 Easy falling back on old habits, isn't it? ;) 19:16:07 titanstar: try reading some of chuck moore's wisdom from ultratechnology.com 19:16:21 Spread the gospel. 19:16:39 Robert: it is where i found about the common sense rules :) 19:16:39 for example, i have a word for performing an iteration of a 2 pole iir filter, which is 9 lines long 19:16:50 lots of loading of feedback buffers and so forth 19:17:22 * thin notices that programmers that come from a C background and happen to be remember their C stuff too well have difficulty with programmign in forth 19:17:30 -be 19:17:57 i don't think it ever uses more than 3 cells of stack at any time, but then i have the float stack for doing the actual calculations 19:18:32 i guess a lot of people here don't like the float stack though 19:18:50 thin: yeah, i've read the ultratechnology.com essays 19:19:12 titanstar: well i got the rules from the chuck moore transcripts 19:20:21 chuck would hate some of my code :-) 19:20:26 Robert: i don't understand what you mean 19:20:30 thin: Actually I think people mentally divide large C functions, so that each sub-part becomes easy to understand. But in Forth this just isn't practical (you'd end up doing "7 pick 11 roll" or something). But having to create named words for everything... that's hard to get used to. You don't do it in real life either. 19:20:33 the way i see it, a lot of words have to be larger to do block-based processing instead of sample by sample processing 19:20:37 it's a software synthesizer 19:21:09 "7 pick 11 roll" absolutely never ever happens in good forth code 19:21:22 i 19:21:22 What is 'roll'? 19:21:28 thin: That's my point. 19:21:36 i've managed to stay away from pick and roll, fortunately 19:21:45 if you're thinking in "7 pick 11 roll" terms, then you'd definitely think that programming in forth centers aroudn the stack 19:22:16 crc: it moves the item from 11 to TOS rather than copying 19:22:34 That's stupid. 19:22:35 thin: My point is that the way of programming that would lead to such a statement in Forth, might work fine in general, but Forth isn't meant for it. 19:22:57 I've seen one function making good use of pick/roll, a permutation program. 19:23:06 ok right good poitn heh :P 19:23:31 yeah in forth all the rules are meant to be broken anyways :P 19:23:49 when i first started learning forth i couldn't get over how "hackish" everything felt 19:24:01 so is it common to factor out a word even if it's only used once? 19:24:01 i.e. there were no rules forcing you into any kind of structure 19:24:36 you could create your own array creating words etc, your own IF THEN words if you wanted heh.. 19:24:49 gotta love the whole "breaking all the rules" thing that forth has 19:25:04 to take the best approach to solve the problem 19:25:06 mmmm 19:25:19 Yes, not always clean or optimal, but you can easily get something to work. 19:25:40 Self-modifying code stopped being politically correct in the 60s. ;) 19:26:21 titanstar: yes its good practice to break down a word into several smaller words that can be tested at each level 19:27:53 robert: well my point is that when i first came to forth and found out aobut how hackish it was, i thought it wasn't clean or optimal, but it turns out that it is clean/optimal by allowing you to directly solve the problem without creating bloat for the sake of following rules/structure 19:28:35 i.e. directly creating customized arrays etc reather than using some generic array creating word 19:29:20 --- join: aum (~aum@port-204-54-210.fastadsl.net.nz) joined #forth 19:29:28 Hello aum 19:29:35 I was actually refering to how those things are actually implemented in high-level Forth words. 19:29:36 hi 19:29:41 Can get messy. ;) 19:30:22 i'm still having a bit of trouble seeing how to apply these rules 19:31:00 titanstar: Those rules are a bit restrictive 19:31:07 what are the most obvious factorization opportunities for the code here: http://www.ping.uio.no/~runehol/texgen.fs 19:31:15 titanstar: takes a lot of practice to get the hang of it, when coded some programs i found i had to rewrite each of them like 5+ times before i ended up with code that didn't suck too much 19:31:55 it's a bit of a texture generator, execute the startup word and you'll get the ascii art representation of a phong texture 19:33:08 robert: i sort of know what you mean there with the high level words and making hacks to get them to work but in my experience, making the hacks generally makes the word longer than one line of code 19:33:35 putting that into better words, coding more htan 1 line of code for a word takes a coder into the hack territory ;) 19:33:59 What words get longer than one line? 19:34:08 most of them, i guess 19:34:22 I think most of the hackish words I have are pretty short. 19:34:32 or, many of them would get into one line if i didn't use that much spacing 19:34:54 so, i should factor out the loop contents in tex_phong ? 19:34:57 titanstar: As long as it's readable and practical to use/code. :) 19:35:09 that spacing is left over from coding in other languages :P 19:35:16 yeah i guess 19:35:25 Spacing can help readability :-) 19:35:29 Yes 19:35:40 but spacing is formatting 19:35:43 I tend to do intendation when I have something like an IF/THEN inside a loop or something. 19:35:51 what about code refactoring? 19:35:55 crc: i think all the code on one line is more readable 19:36:14 And simple spacing (like.... key? if do-stuff then ) on shorter words. 19:36:18 Usually works fine. 19:37:35 titanstar: you could create a word and put the most of the code that is inside the inner loop into that word and then just call that word 19:37:38 I put each if/then on a separate line 19:38:10 RetroForth requires loops to be separate from the rest of a definition :-) 19:38:10 I do that if the word isn't very short. 19:38:19 actually what i do is put all the code on one line because it forces me to factor more 19:38:30 right 19:38:33 rather than being more "aesthetically" pleasing 19:38:38 I don't factor my code heavily 19:38:38 i should try that 19:38:42 it forces me to make shorter words 19:38:49 and thus keeping it aesthetically pleasing 19:38:59 without having to resort ot fancy formatting 19:39:16 which isn't nearly as useful as factoring 19:40:03 titanstar: you code looks sort of decent at first glance if it were me, i'd try puttig it all into one liners and then re-evaluating the code and seeing where i can factor it some more 19:40:14 i.e. i'd put the code into : blah ; format 19:40:19 and then look at it more closely 19:40:32 yeah, i suppose the first factorizations might reveal more factorization opportunities 19:40:38 i'll try that tomorrow 19:40:57 but it's 4:40 here, better go to sleep :) 19:41:17 thanks for the feedback 19:41:28 Why factor out a line that's only used once? 19:43:33 the code should be well factored in the first place, going back over code and factoring it is practice  19:43:50 except in the case where you might make improvements or remove bugs 19:43:59 take the following code 19:44:13 : washer fill spin rinse spin ; 19:44:30 er 19:47:28 : FILL FAUCETS OPEN WAIT-UNTIL-FULL FAUCETS CLOSE ; 19:47:28 : RINSE FILL AGITATE DRAIN ; 19:47:28 : DO-WASH-CYCLE WASH SPIN RINSE SPIN ; 19:47:59 er not quite the code i meant 19:48:11 That's one problem with some Forth texts, theory (textbook examples like that) and practice (real code) don't always look the same. ;) 19:48:30 lets assume there's no second SPIN 19:48:35 i.e. theres no reuse of any of the code 19:48:39 right, so i didn't go to sleep and started factoring the code 19:48:47 titanstar: :D 19:49:00 titanstar: You're west of me, damn it, you can't go to sleep already. 19:49:02 and you are absolutely right, there's a lot of factorization opportunities there 19:49:10 so to answer the question "why factor a word thats only used once" 19:49:10 Robert: :) 19:49:47 : higherlevelcode middlelevelcode andmorecode ; 19:49:59 : middlelevelcode lowerlevelcode morecode ; 19:50:04 : lowerlevelcode bunchofcode ; 19:50:25 in that example it could ALL be put into the "higherlevelcode" word 19:50:37 but in this case you can test each one separately 19:50:43 I don't like unneeded layers though 19:50:50 Most of my nonfactored code is like: 19:50:50 : event:key EVENT_ID 19:50:50 dup KEY_LEFT = if drop x@ 1 - x! ;; then 19:50:50 dup KEY_RIGHT = if drop x@ 1 + x! ;; then 19:50:50 dup KEY_UP = if drop y@ 1 - y! ;; then 19:50:50 dup KEY_DOWN = if drop y@ 1 + y! ;; then 19:50:51 i.e. you can test lowerlevelcode to see if it works 19:50:52 drop ; 19:51:03 thin: What do you think about allowing people to use space inside words, to improve readability? : (initialize and reset variables) ... ; : (main loop) (initialize and reset variables) (do stuff) ; 19:51:22 * Robert is looking at a lot of walking red and black hammers. 19:51:53 don't forthers already use variable amounts of spacing? 19:52:00 inside words 19:52:06 like they'll have 19:52:10 IF blahblah 19:52:16 two spaces instead of one 19:52:38 : word blahblah ; 19:52:40 two spaces there.. 19:52:51 Was that to me? 19:53:13 crc: thats fairly factored, thats just code in a list :P 19:53:37 the factoring talk is sort of aimed at the non-repetitive code.. 19:53:43 or the semi-repetitive 19:53:44 heh 19:54:00 crc: but you could factor that code right there 19:54:20 the only thin that seems to change is the KEY_ and the 1 + or 1 - etc 19:54:25 thing* 19:55:02 Ok. I see the difference 19:55:07 I like IsForth's case statements. 19:55:11 That's an example from a game event loop I'm writing 19:55:17 * crc doesn't like CASE 19:55:29 Sometimes it's useful. 19:55:30 I just use IF/THEN for conditional processing 19:55:46 I do that too, because I'm too lazy to implement case. :) 19:56:03 isn't if/then like hte 3rd last resort ? 19:56:13 1st is something 19:56:17 2nd is math? 19:56:21 3rd is conditional? 19:56:27 I'm not too lazy, I want to keep the words to a minimum 19:56:27 IsForth has far too many words for my tastes 19:56:53 crc: But most of them are optional. 19:56:55 i440r: ya hear that? isforth is too wordy! ;) 19:57:10 In general I agree with you, crc. 19:57:18 But I happen to like case, that's all. 19:59:50 titanstar: hows it going? 19:59:58 thin: quite well, actually 20:00:03 titanstar: did you put all the code into oneliners or something? :P 20:00:05 http://www.ping.uio.no/~runehol/texgen2.fs 20:00:09 working on it 20:00:34 did a couple of factorizations based on the fact that a lot of processing is the same for the three color channels 20:00:43 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@66-74-218-202.san.rr.com) joined #forth 20:00:43 haven't gooten to tex_phong yet though 20:00:46 Hi kc5tja 20:00:52 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja 20:01:00 what are good strategies for picking names for all these small words? 20:01:06 re 20:01:13 hey kc5tja 20:01:19 word.1 word.2 word.3 and so on :-) 20:01:23 Hehe 20:01:37 I know a guy who uses random obscenities for word/variable naming. 20:01:48 Comments are also random nonsense 20:01:49 i guess the objective is that the intermediate words become useful for other parts of the program, thus reducing code size 20:01:56 Who comment at all then? Who knows? 20:02:01 kc5tja: great work with the kestrel dev, what you said about the kestrel emulator being the biggest thing you've done and only taking a few days caught my eye :P 20:02:04 His code is terrible to read. 20:02:20 thin: Thanks. :) 20:02:27 It was really quite fun to do. 20:02:38 With functions like.... omgbbq(int foo, int fuck) 20:03:26 kc5tja: i'm amazed how productive you are these days and you're still working 20:03:32 thin: I have to change processor architectures though; my MISC violates at least one patent that is still valid. 20:03:45 kc5tja: i sort of find it more difficult to do anything productive when i'm working fulltime at a job 20:03:50 thin: I only put one or two days a week into it. Maximum. 20:04:00 on the weekend? 20:04:07 thin: usually. Whenever my days off are. 20:04:14 yeah 20:04:39 Tonight, I'm planning on working on the new CPU emulator. 20:04:56 Robert: OMGBBQ! 20:05:20 thin: KTHXWTF. 20:05:27 heh 20:05:32 GG! 20:06:19 i guess this is the forth's programmers equivalent of rewriting haskell code to points-free style 20:06:34 Points-free? 20:08:03 yeah, rewriting functions that take arguments until they're just the composition of other function 20:08:06 http://www.haskell.org/hawiki/PointFreeStyle 20:08:48 i guess all forth code could be said to be pointfree, as the arguments are never mentioned by name 20:09:36 kc5tja: so whats happening with the commercial aspect of kestrel.. i.e. how does the cpu emulator help you get kestrel out there and sold? 20:10:41 i suppose its for bug checking ? 20:11:14 OK, now my Forth has the best definition of 0 ever: bf: 0 [-] ; 20:11:41 That is BrainFuck, getting compiled to native x86 code. :) 20:12:04 so you coded brainfuck in forth and now you're redefining the 0 with brainfuck? 20:12:17 Right. 20:12:20 :) 20:12:26 So 0 becomes a loop. 20:12:49 Robert: That's insane :-) 20:12:52 the matrix we live in is running on forth 20:13:07 But the BF compiles is 18 lines, not too bad. 20:13:14 Including its interface to my Forth. 20:13:37 The nice thing is that the BF's pointer stats at TOS. 20:13:37 loop quantum gravity theory is sooooo sexy 20:13:59 thin: Give it to me in one-liners. 20:14:06 starts* 20:16:38 basically we found out that matter is discrete when at one point scientists used ot think it might be continuously divisible. loop gravity theory is about space-time being discrete rather than continuous. and that math points to time being discrete at a planck second (10E-26 second) and every increment causes a geometry change at each spot in space (which is planck size) 20:16:53 s/that/the 20:17:51 so basically the universe is made up of all these dots but for the theory purpose, we just represent the lines connecting the dots 20:18:29 * Tomasu is back (gone 05:55:17) 20:18:30 so the lines will change each increment (the geometry will change) based on the previous state of the lines 20:18:45 and thats how stuff happens in the world 20:18:48 how stuff moves around etc 20:18:52 how energy moves around 20:18:55 photons etc 20:19:19 the theory obsoletes the superstring theory 20:19:38 i never liked the superstring theory in the first place 20:19:42 too fucking arbitrary 20:20:36 anyways i love this theory because if we can watch the or influence the geometry itself 20:20:45 then that would be kickass for technology 20:20:52 alright 20:20:55 $ wc *.fs 20:20:56 104 314 1683 texgen.fs 20:20:56 79 367 1963 texgen2.fs 20:21:17 so the number of lines decreased, but the number of words (not forth ones) and characters actually increased 20:21:21 hmm 20:21:25 like for once we'd be able to recieve/transmit on all wavelengths using the same piece of technolgoy 20:22:03 from microwaves to radio to visible etc 20:23:47 which would mean that i introduced a lot of new words that i didn't manage to reuse 20:23:50 but i'm wondering about the possibility of being able to view any location in the world etc 20:24:41 as the information of what is happening on the otherside of hte world probably is available in the geometry in some way.. 20:25:36 kc5tja: any factoring tips for titanstar? the code is at http://www.ping.uio.no/~runehol/texgen2.fs 20:26:25 titanstar: one of my recommendations is the code in the inner loop at tex_phong could be put into another word.. 20:26:35 not necessarily all of it 20:26:44 just whatever fits the concept of a new word 20:26:55 er 20:26:58 you already did something like that 20:26:59 heh 20:27:00 thin: yeah, i moved parts of it into other words, but the i and j references made it hard for me 20:27:06 to move all of it 20:27:30 boy your code looks weird with all the _ ;) 20:27:45 heh 20:28:00 i'm a unix programmer, what can i say? :) 20:28:33 nah a unix programmer uses names like "wc" and "pwd" :P 20:28:39 and "passwd" 20:28:53 and don't forget creat :) 20:28:57 heh 20:29:12 that might possibly the stupidest abbreviation ever :) 20:29:16 +be 20:29:56 so it's not common to use namespace-style prefixes for word names? 20:30:28 different strokes for different folks i guess 20:31:08 i believe in using one-word names for words or if i use more than one word i'll put them together without any capitalization or _ 20:31:16 i see the point in using short names when the word name is actually longer than the word contents 20:31:38 but for larger pieces of code i'd guess i'd wear out all the short names quickly 20:31:45 if the code is well factored, the words don't really have to be super "readable" as the code can be worked out later ;) 20:32:14 later (as in when ya come back to the code) 20:32:18 yeah 20:32:41 well doesn't seem like you can run out of one-word names 20:32:46 but it's still easier to read a list of word names instead of a full forth source code file 20:32:53 i mean there's a billion words 20:33:03 well, meaningful ones 20:33:41 is "tex_phong" meaningful? 20:33:49 yup 20:34:11 it's a word in the texture generator, and it makes a phong texture 20:34:21 txtre 20:34:26 txtr 20:34:27 :P 20:34:31 tex? nahhh :P 20:34:39 txtr! txtr! ;) 20:34:43 hehe 20:34:55 but tex is shorter :) 20:34:59 :P 20:35:10 maybe i'd do something like 20:35:12 txtr-phong 20:35:15 if i was feeling radical 20:35:24 at least then i wouldn't have to hit the shift key for the _ 20:35:30 true 20:35:35 i'm a lazy typist 20:35:47 most other languages don't allow '-' in identifiers though 20:36:09 oh and the other thing 20:36:10 you can do 20:36:12 pixel. 20:36:15 ;) 20:36:19 er 20:36:19 ah, right 20:36:24 and tex. 20:36:44 well i'd prolly do pixelprint 20:37:05 pixelemit ? 20:37:08 lala 20:37:13 i'm just talking lalala 20:37:18 talk sux! 20:37:28 & therefor irc sux 20:37:34 & therefore sex rules 20:37:47 cuz no talking is needed if you're getting fucked 20:37:59 indeed. 20:38:07 OK, there we go from Forth to random rants. 20:38:28 hows our favorite little player of the channel doing eh robert? 20:38:35 you getting it on with the girls? 20:38:36 or the guys? 20:38:46 (not to be discriminatory against gay ppl) 20:38:57 * crc kicks thin for going off topic again 20:39:01 :) 20:39:22 isn't it better to talk than to lurk? even if its offtopic? ;) 20:39:58 Well, that depends on how off topic it is... 20:40:20 #forth prolly could use a bit more profanity and guy talk :P 20:40:29 locker room style 20:40:37 nah 20:40:38 whatever 20:40:51 i gather there usually aren't many girls in here? :) 20:40:55 seems like most ppl on #forht are pretty conservative 20:41:06 unless thats just a facade 20:41:46 i just hope the younguns of this channel aren't suffering from "porn creep" 20:41:59 titanstar: nope 20:42:24 titanstar: unless you count robert 20:42:26 jk 20:46:01 ...? 20:46:21 ? 20:46:29 oh the porn creep thing? 20:46:35 Yes 20:48:07 basically its a phenomenon where a) the viewer of porn eventually becomes desensitized to softcore so he graduates to hardcore, then becomes desensitized to that and starts looking and progressively nastier things (sort of) b) becomes unable to have sex with a real live girl, i.e. impotence 20:48:19 s/and/at 20:48:46 Actually the unability to have sex with real girls has another cause. 20:48:55 yeah? 20:49:07 * Robert doesn't see any around. ;) 20:49:10 lol 20:49:22 not in front of the computer in your basement :P 20:50:29 What do you mean? There are other places? 20:51:59 altho i have a friend that was very successful at finding local girls online using msn chat room for his city, then he takls to them there and gets their msn, then talks to them on msn gets their pic, talks to them on the phone and then arranges a meet.. i know he laid like 5 girls doing this and no, they weren't grossly ugly fat chicks 20:52:32 he's really good talking with girls though 20:52:38 I refuse to use MSN 20:52:40 wasn't a geek like us 20:53:06 I can talk to girls if they're not boring. 20:53:22 sure but talk isn't necessary for sex 20:53:30 The problem is that in the good places there are around here (IRC and the woods) few girls hang around. 20:53:39 i.e. you can easily just fluff talk then take them home and fuck on the same day 20:53:42 You talk like a true rapist. 20:53:56 not at all 20:54:08 girls are more sexual than guys 20:54:12 they have sex on the brain way more 20:54:25 all you need to do is establish rapport 20:54:28 then invite her over 20:54:34 its really quite easy 20:55:32 you look at stuff like clubs, spring break, or even like the last hockey game of the season where one team wins the grey cup 20:55:51 or mardi gras 20:56:01 and how the girls will be exposing their tits or better 20:56:20 basically they're looking around for excuses to do that 20:56:24 Libraries. 20:56:25 they love clubs etc because they've got that excuse 20:56:38 in that environment they're not going to be labeled "slut" because it's "normal" heh 20:56:53 girls hate to be labeled slut but love to be sluts 20:57:01 and i use the word in the non-swear word sense 20:57:20 Robert: yeah i've met a few girls at the computer labs :) 20:57:50 i go for a coffee with them 20:58:06 They weren't into it for real. Nobody was... 20:59:01 oh yeah they were, if you manage to isolate one into a room you'd get laid 20:59:31 girls aren't guys 20:59:42 this is something i've learned since like a year ago 20:59:45 heh 21:00:23 like as geeks we're sort of like "oh girls are guys with a different body" and then we judge them by that 21:00:47 so they don't talk about computers or technical problems or systems or whatever, therefore they are boring 21:00:50 and stupid 21:00:52 etc 21:01:07 its easier to just see them as a separate species 21:01:13 i.e. women and men are two species 21:01:18 that mate 21:01:24 yup 21:01:24 That theory used to be science 21:01:26 to produce a child 21:01:26 and produce little bastards 21:01:30 In the 17th century 21:01:34 heh 21:01:47 thing is women aren't men 21:01:53 john stossle produced a report years ago stating that 21:01:56 stossisisle 21:02:00 they're relationship oriented for one thing 21:02:11 men are more indepdendent and creation oriented 21:02:35 i think the first years of childhood define that far more than testicles 21:02:45 * Robert agrees with Klaw. 21:02:52 i thought like that too 21:02:58 don't forget i was a geek like you two ;) 21:02:59 I read a study -- they take a baby child.. 21:03:00 Not just the first years though, I guess. 21:03:14 they dress him in blue, they dress him in pink, and they ask people to judge whether the child is sad or angry 21:03:26 dressed as a boy, they're angry 21:03:55 there are fundamental biological differences that cause women and men to have different interests 21:04:39 the pleasure center in the brain of women moves to a different area in the brain to the language/somethingelse area when they grow up 21:04:53 but it stays in the frontal area in men 21:05:03 and the frontal area is the action-oriented 21:05:17 s/when they/as they/ 21:05:32 there are more biological differences 21:05:34 OK, you're moving forward. 21:05:40 Entering the 19th century. 21:06:02 you know the sci-fi theory -- something about the shape of an egg -- sentient life would normally come in a humanoid form, just as an egg is usually in the nice round shape of an egg.. 21:06:03 ah so you're the expert? whats the 21st century then? :) 21:06:19 if i found an example, or explained that better, it would make more sense, but pretend i was eloquent 21:06:40 Anyway, I think that human thought gravitates to an area 21:07:35 heh i don't think any such sci-fi theory exists 21:07:44 thin: Good question. I don't say biology doesn't matter, but your theory is a little bit too... exotic for me. 21:07:54 thin: call it the star-trek theory then 21:08:00 k 21:08:12 that's why everyone is on two legs and sexy 21:08:17 and you get a lot of interspecies breeding 21:08:29 Robert: which theory? 21:08:48 Robert: i'm just saying pretend that girls are a different species for the purpose of thinking about them 21:08:53 thin: Ehm, your "different spieces" theory. The general concept. 21:09:31 thing is up until a year ago i was thinking in terms of "girls are just guys with anatomical differences" 21:09:42 now i know better 21:10:07 So what are the differences? Line them up. 21:10:08 you're saying there are greater differences between genders than there are between the DNA of different families 21:10:13 their interests and drives are different at the biological level.. they can't be judged the same way a guy can be judged 21:10:57 I could say that about asians 21:11:00 ok let me explain this a bit differently 21:11:05 and do whenever I drive by UCI 21:11:18 guys are attracted to girls based on their physical attractiveness 21:11:28 girls however are attracted to guys based on their confidence 21:11:38 this is basically a evolutionary method 21:12:14 guys are attracted to girls that will bear healthy offspring 21:12:36 you state that as a universal fact 21:12:49 girls however are attracted to guys that rank higher on the hierarchial scale between other men 21:12:53 Klaw: Sssh, he's approaching the 1930s. 21:13:09 alright, how do you explain supermodels 21:13:20 klaw: this isn't to be taken 100% literal, i'm just trying to impart some "how to get laid" knowledge to robert 21:13:21 they are in no position to have healthy offspring 21:13:36 alright, girls like confidence, men want children 21:13:39 girls however are attracted to guys that rank higher on the hierarchial scale between other men 21:13:48 I have to say though, men don't want children, and women want someone they can pussywhip 21:13:55 passing fads and all 21:14:01 the way that works is the more successful men among other men develop more confidence 21:14:27 Bug in the firmware 21:14:43 so the woman aren't looking at the hierarchy 21:14:55 the confidence is just a byproduct, but the woman see that as the sexy.. 21:14:59 klaw: are you stupid? don't take everything your read 100% literally. always use your reading comprehension to understand what the person MEANS and understand that i'm just doing a general overview and there are always exceptions 21:15:07 klaw: so please stop talking so much 21:15:08 thin: I'm working on it 21:15:21 ok ok, go to the 50s, i'll go back to my shell sessions 21:15:45 the confidence is the byproduct of the success of a man yup 21:16:18 and the women are mainly attracted to that 21:16:34 I see your entire world view is coming together here 21:16:39 altho they'll also be attracted to other signs too, such as physical attractiveness, societal (money etc) 21:16:45 yup 21:17:05 so ultimately a man wanting to get laid has to use his confidence 21:17:10 oh 21:17:11 and 21:17:29 because women respond to confidence they are also sexually receptive 21:18:04 i.e. if you're confident enough to be sexually agressive (not in the rape sense jeez), the woman will take that as a sign as confidence 21:18:19 guys have to do most of the work 21:18:26 unless they happen to be physically beautiful/rich/famous 21:18:56 You know what argument the veg*ans use against people who say that it's natural for people to eat meat? 21:19:03 what? 21:19:50 Well, first of all (but that's irrelevant here) that we don't really need meat to live, but second (and this is my point), humans have the ability to chose. 21:20:03 choose* 21:20:29 We don't need to follow the biological urge to take a pidgeon and eat it raw. 21:21:10 (well since the first poin is irreleveant i've put this in paranthesis, yup we do need meat to live unless we know exactly the right foods to eat that will provide some of the missing amino acids and vitamins especially B6 i believe) 21:21:12 and about 5% of people choose to marry people who aren't near-clones of their opposite-sex parent 21:21:13 We're MISC machines. Society is our firmware, and a limited amount of our brain is the RAM memory, where user programs are stored. 21:21:35 Robert: i like that 21:22:08 seems like a lot of ppl believe that humans don't have any instincts 21:22:15 anybody notice that? 21:22:21 thin: I'm not a vegetarian myself, but they do survive you know... 21:22:35 thin: I didn't say that. 21:22:45 i'm talking about something else :P 21:22:51 thin: I say the instincts no longer are the only thing available to use. 21:22:53 us* 21:22:54 different thread of convo 21:23:26 ok but what does this have to do with getting laid anyways? 21:23:36 are you going to put the responsibility of guys getting laid on women? 21:23:45 gonna demand that they change and become more guy-like? 21:23:52 and drop their chick logic? 21:24:47 I don't know if that was every the subject. But it's impossible for me to answer that 21:25:07 What's "chick logic", anyway? 21:25:10 well why did you bring up the whole vegetarian thing? 21:25:32 Just as a reminder that instincts aren't all we got. 21:25:46 AND, more important, neither is society's rules. 21:25:54 chick logic is really just emotion based logic 21:25:56 Make use of the RAM. 21:26:36 You basically mean irrationality, don't you? 21:27:53 well it's been argued that emotion is sort of a logic process used by the body for survival purposes.. 21:28:15 but yeah, chick logic isn't really like guy logic 21:28:39 I think emotions play a large part of thinking (even where you least expect it), but it's really hard to tell how much. 21:29:08 sure plays a role in everyone, but in some its dominant and others its less dominant 21:29:21 a la meyers-briggs personality typing.. 21:29:40 unless the whole meyers-briggs thing is bullshit ;) 21:29:57 Actually I wouldn't go as far as saying that men in general use good logic. 21:30:07 i didn't say that 21:30:32 The entire concept of nationalism and military parades is basically using emotions to make men do stupid things. 21:30:47 religion is emotion based too 21:31:20 i heard about a study that showed that people tend to develop a belief in any given thing before reasoning about it 21:31:33 and most just rationalize it to support their beliefs 21:31:43 Yes. 21:31:58 Human way of thinking... 21:32:14 Draw a schetch - try to fill in the details later. 21:32:30 so the logical guys are either a) happen to have really good instincts for developing their beliefs b) allow their beliefs to be destroyed and/or don't hang on too tightly to their beliefs 21:32:31 If the details don't fit within the picture, you get lost for a while, or forever. 21:32:57 hmm i was sort of redundant with the last bit 21:33:23 I think b) is learnt by practice to a large part. 21:33:25 way back when i was 13 years old i said to myself the highest virtue is open mindness 21:33:25 Letting it go 21:34:09 and so many times since then have i completely exchanged my old worldview for a new one 21:34:37 i just love reading books that demolish the old worldview 21:34:45 Did any of the new ones deny the value of open-mindness? :) 21:34:49 heh 21:35:33 i'm rather disappointed how few people bother trying to be open minded 21:35:34 I don't know really, feels like I several simulatenous world views. 21:35:41 Yes, same here. 21:35:42 not many people don't bother holding it as a virtue 21:35:48 er 21:35:56 not many ppl bother holding it as a virtue 21:36:09 not many ppl are willing to be proven completely wrong 21:36:22 and to swallow their pride, throw out their old world view etc 21:36:38 I'm willing to, but I'm never going to LIKE it. 21:36:58 Every time it happens I get another piece of "dark past". 21:37:09 well the swallowing part is a lil painful 21:37:12 I'm of course happy for the new light. 21:37:16 but after that it's much more glorious 21:37:21 thing is 21:37:32 most of my worldview changes come from reading books 21:37:36 rather than from arguing with people 21:37:46 because books can present the whole scope 21:37:53 and build up the whole thing logically 21:38:01 arguments between ppl can't really do that 21:38:09 Not one single. 21:38:13 only minor enlightenments can happen via arguing 21:38:19 Right... 21:38:32 But many minor enlightments can make everythin turn over in the end. 21:38:32 major comes from reading/introspection 21:38:40 perhaps 21:38:46 but on the other hand.. 21:38:58 arguing with people is sort of like watching the news on tv 21:39:09 I do speak out of experience, both personal and other people's. 21:39:53 ...what? 21:40:03 basically what i mean is that we're all surrounded by propaganda, and the sad thing is most people end up swallowing it.. 21:40:18 people will watch tv and not even notice the bullshit coming at them 21:40:22 thru news for example 21:40:38 like there's so many flawed assumptions going on 21:40:42 Sad indeed... 21:40:51 and people build up worldviews on that 21:41:08 But arguing with people means you meet different views. 21:41:24 sure 21:41:36 but logic & reality is the ultimate view 21:41:58 ..whatever that is. :) 21:42:07 and we could improve our views strictly by analysation rather than arguing with different views 21:42:19 well i'm talking of objective reality 21:42:20 Remember that you can change most things about society, a lot of people forget that. 21:42:21 i.e. Reality 21:43:10 And some things simply can't be objective. 21:43:39 For example, if something lacks a meaning, and you have to make up one, there can per definition be no "correct" one. 21:44:03 But on the other hand, it's still impractical to live without any kinds of laws. 21:44:05 i'm not sure just how aware you are about how much flawed assumptions are all around us 21:44:30 If I were aware of them all I'd probably be in my bed crying right now. 21:44:38 :) 21:44:43 Or out naked laughing. 21:44:50 madman style eh? 21:44:59 actually i can't watch the new 21:45:01 news 21:45:01 Right, breakdown in one way or the other. 21:45:09 i avoid the news 21:45:12 What were you thinking of in particular? 21:45:31 hmm 21:45:47 well i was gonna go into economics but i'm lazy :P 21:45:52 sorta changed my mind on that one 21:45:57 Hehe. 21:46:07 well 21:46:17 i used to be a socialist/communist 21:46:18 And I think that is a topic you should avoid being 100% sure of. 21:46:27 I find that very hard to believe. 21:46:29 like i saw injustices 21:46:39 like stuff about the native americans in canada etc 21:46:52 i was a socialist/communist 21:46:55 as that was what my mom was 21:47:09 thing is 21:47:14 i still hold all the same views 21:47:25 that i want to make the world a better place for everyone 21:47:32 that injustices aren't necessary 21:47:39 that people don't need to starve 21:47:43 or get fucked over 21:47:45 etc 21:47:51 still believe all that 21:48:16 of course at the time, the assumption was that "socialism/communism is the way to go, and capitalism is the root of all evil" 21:48:29 then i took economics 101 at university 21:48:32 read the textbook twice 21:49:15 and i realized that most people confuse capitalism and bigbusiness/government 21:49:58 Yes, the ideology behind it is different from that. 21:50:12 Just like people associating communism with Stalin are pretty clueless. 21:51:23 Personally I disagree with the basic morality behind it, but I understand it, and see some of its advantages... 21:53:07 Sorry -- helping roommate reinstall fuckdows. 21:53:13 It's taking longer than I expected. 21:53:17 Hehe. 21:53:18 >:/ 21:53:22 Always as much fun. ;) 21:53:27 Hrm. 21:53:33 Almost 7am here, soon bedtime. 21:54:14 oh the other thing about the injustices is that i wanted to seize control of the world and fix it all 21:54:58 That's a realistic goal... 21:56:39 and i imagine that is what the other people that pursue presidency/power are motivated by 21:56:43 but i've realized that control is ultimately the root of all the problems 22:00:13 economics as a science proves that control/bureaucracy/coercion basically fuck up the economy and fuck over the people in the first place 22:00:36 so i'm not gonna try to take over the world 22:00:37 It's not really an objective science. 22:00:45 Since humans aren't statically defined. 22:00:55 Good thing you're not. ;) 22:00:56 thin: got a question on this for you 22:01:25 nah economics isn't specifically about humans, anyways i'm talking about the objective part of it 22:01:47 the policy making part of it is the crap part 22:01:54 as the government wants to justify its spending etc 22:02:05 I don't think there's a very objective part of it. 22:02:25 People pretend it's objective because they'd like it to be. 22:02:41 if you read up on economics you'll discover that john maynard keynes (keynesian economics) was a idiot, but the government loves his ideas because they promote governmental spending etc 22:02:41 Just like some people pretend the Bible is the objective Truth(TM) 22:03:33 Right, and capitalists (I know others who do) loves the idea that economics (and sometimes even morality) is entirely objective. 22:03:52 Because it suits them well. 22:03:59 ugh i said science, not objective 22:04:07 no science is objective 22:04:08 heh 22:04:20 It can be more or less objective... 22:04:25 pure mathematics is fairly close to objective 22:04:39 Math and physics is more, economics and psychology are less. 22:04:40 don't confuse "economics" with "all the various theories in economics" 22:04:48 math isn't a science 22:04:55 ? 22:05:15 math is separate from science 22:05:18 science relies on math 22:05:28 maths is the purest science 22:05:49 philosophy -> math -> science 22:05:58 Well, it's getting late, and I doubt we'd get much farther. 22:05:58 anyways back to the topic 22:06:04 just a sec robert heh 22:06:09 Ehm, OK.. 22:07:30 when i used the word economics earlier i wasn't refering to its theories etc i was refering to it as a concept 22:08:13 when i said "economics as a science" i said that to make it clear i was excluding the more fluffy stuff 22:08:26 there are several fundamental principles that all economicsts agree with 22:08:54 I think I get what you mean (somewhat), but since you in practice deal with humans (who often are totally brainwashed and/or irrational)... few universal truths remain. 22:09:01 Such as? 22:10:09 well the text book i read developed like 10 principles and it took the whole book to really make it all clear and show how they all interacted 22:10:34 but one principle is 22:10:41 "trade makes people better off" 22:11:17 another is "tax/bureaucracy causes a deadweight loss that grows geometrically as you increase the tax" 22:12:30 hmm 22:13:01 The first one is obvious, but it say nothing about the forms of trade. 22:13:05 says* 22:13:07 i do recommend to you and anyone else that wants to evaluate capitalism, socialism etc to learn the basics of economics 22:13:21 specificlaly microeconomics 22:13:21 The second is far from obvious. 22:13:29 macroeconomics is keynesian economics 22:13:35 economics is about production 22:13:47 but macroeconomics/keynesian turns it around and says its about consumerism 22:13:59 Except "bueraucracy" is usually associated with people taking a lot of time doing nothing - obviously a waste of resources. 22:14:18 But where taxation enters the picture... beats me. 22:14:20 which the government loves because it gives an excuse for the government to spend to encourage people to spend 22:14:47 tax causes a deadweight loss that grows geometrically" 22:14:53 basically 22:15:17 I can't see why that is such a universal truth 22:15:42 you have a supply and a demand curve that intersect each other on the graph of price versus quantity 22:15:54 the intersection is the optimium 22:16:20 taxation increases the price 22:16:40 That assumes a certain model. 22:17:23 supply and demand model yes 22:17:32 definition of economics = supply and demand 22:17:33 :P 22:17:40 Not really... 22:17:59 You're basically assuming capitalism to prove that it's optimal. 22:18:13 what is capitalism? 22:18:20 Good q. :) 22:18:50 --- quit: aum () 22:18:59 well macroeconomics is about how the government can make the economy better (i.e. macroeconomics is non-capitalistic) 22:19:05 If you for imagine an entirely planned economy, with perfect decision makers, it would achieve its goals with a very good efficiency. This however assumes perfect decision makers, AND a uniform goal... But still, it's an alternative. 22:19:14 s/for// 22:19:31 but what if someone wants to keep the product of his own labor? 22:19:54 That's leaving economy and entering ethics. 22:20:11 An even more important subject, though. 22:20:15 :) 22:20:18 BUT, not what I was talking about 22:20:26 --- quit: Tomasu (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 22:20:48 planned economy will never work as good as an unplanned economy 22:20:52 due to the "invisible hand" 22:21:01 I was doing that earlier, though. It's the entire "MINE" philosophy I'm against. 22:21:09 you know aobut "agents" ? 22:21:13 like software agents i mean 22:21:24 or like ants 22:21:27 And why is that? Because of human reactions. 22:21:31 No 22:23:23 --- join: Tomasu (~moose@S010600045a4c73cc.ed.shawcable.net) joined #forth 22:24:11 er.. i mean there's a cost to plan an economy, but with autonomous individuals all the needs are met without that cost 22:24:52 all the autonomous individuals interacting with each other to provide for their own needs thru production & trade 22:25:06 assuming no coercion here 22:25:53 capitalism really gets a bad rap even though there are no capitalistic countries 22:26:39 Well, that's like saying brainfuck has a bad reputation even though nobody ever wrote a large system in it. ;) 22:26:46 Anyway, I'm really gone now 22:26:48 in the US the government constantly interferes with the economy, granting monopolies etc 22:26:51 ok 22:26:52 good night 22:27:59 --- join: lalalim_ (~lalalim@pD95EA239.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 22:29:34 aum: what was your question lol 22:32:26 thin: aum already left 22:40:17 --- quit: lalalim (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 22:48:35 --- quit: Tomasu (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 22:48:42 * crc is still hacking away at RetroForth/Windows, Gaming Edition 23:27:48 --- join: Serg[GPRS] (~z@193.201.231.126) joined #forth 23:27:49 back for now. 23:28:07 hi 23:28:10 Finally done reinstalling Windows? 23:28:15 crc: No. 23:28:26 It shouldn't take this long 23:28:27 XP is installed, but now his computer refuses to see any of his firewire devices. >:( 23:28:36 crc: My fucking ass it shouldn't. 23:28:41 :-) 23:28:48 I've *NEVER* had a 1st-time-successful re-install of windows. 23:28:59 ;) 23:29:05 And Windows XP is far, far worse. 23:29:15 Windows XP is the only version of Windows that has ever worked well for me. 23:29:17 I'm about ready to tell my roommate to sell his computer and purchase a PowerMac. 23:29:28 * Serg[GPRS] keeps "canned maiden" for such gallows cases 23:29:57 I'd stop using it, but neither Linux nor BeOS support the modem in this laptop 23:30:09 kc5tja: either upgrade your skill, or hardware is cheap broken trash 23:30:12 crc: Windows XP is the only version of Windows that distinctly and actively tries to thwart any and all forms of debugging, and therefore, when something breaks, *FUCK YOU ASSHOLE*, YOU'RE UP SHIT CREEK WITHOUT A FUCKING PADDLE!! 23:30:32 That's when I reinstall :-( 23:30:38 That's what we DID. 23:30:41 Now it's WORSE!!! 23:30:46 i _rarely_ failed install Win 23:30:56 * kc5tja is *SO* fucking god damned fed up with it right now. 23:31:09 I try to use BeOS or Linux as much as possible 23:31:13 Serg[GPRS]: WinXP "installed" for some definition of installed. 23:31:15 and mostly - on broken hardw 23:31:19 But it's not seeing any of the Firewire devices. 23:31:22 For reasons unknown. 23:31:30 no, i mean full success and working 23:31:31 We installed the drivers, and the drivers all look OK. 23:31:36 Though I *wish* one of them would support my modem 23:31:49 crc: Why use a broken modem then? 23:31:59 I would pay money to get working hardware and use a free OS instead of the reverse. 23:32:05 It's a laptop. I don't have the money to get a nice external one 23:32:12 The laptop was free :-) 23:32:25 (a graduation present) 23:32:48 * kc5tja sighs 23:33:00 kc5tja: is the hardware decent or ultra-cheap, in XP case ? 23:33:02 Now my roommate is, until he gets his computer working again, out of the recording business. :( 23:33:09 Serg[GPRS]: Top of the line. 23:33:26 oops ! 23:33:29 For what he's doing, you simply can't get any better hardware, except a PowerMac. 23:33:55 i mean stability, not just brute force 23:34:02 Serg[GPRS]: What? 23:34:06 may something be broken ? 23:34:10 Nothing is broken. 23:34:19 how is it proven ? 23:34:21 I can put Slackware Linux on that thing and have it running in 15 minutes flat. 23:34:27 Serg[GPRS]: Because it worked BEFORE. 23:34:37 Re-installing an OS doesn't break hardware. 23:34:45 ok, i see 23:34:54 so is the distribution CD good ? 23:35:03 Of course it's good. 23:35:04 stop, stop ! 23:35:21 why OS begged for reinstall ? how did it fallen ? 23:35:58 maybe, it fell due to hardw malfunction ? 23:36:00 Windows was being Windows -- corrupting registry entries, TONS of adware, spyware, and other crapware installed somehow, icons not working, etc. 23:36:06 Nothing hardware related -- everything Windows related. 23:36:15 No. 23:36:25 u'r friend is really bad sysadmin ! 23:36:45 HE'S A MUSICIAN!! 23:36:49 i got _no_ trashware, all ports sealed, all patches patched etc... 23:37:04 Uh huh 23:37:31 and my Win2k and XP are rock-stable 23:37:55 All he has to do is run Internet Explorer for two minutes (literally; I watched), and he acquired 12 adware/spyware programs. 23:38:03 and i keep partition backups w/ everything freshly set up and working 23:38:12 We have backups. 23:38:20 But the backups do us NO GOOD if the Firewire ports don't work. 23:39:13 * Serg[GPRS] getting adware at porno only, but w/ my security settings it fails to install 23:39:39 Dude, adware is ubigitous. 23:39:57 Anyway, I'm not going to argue about this. 23:39:58 i can browse academic, coding, news, political, commerce, hardw vendors sites for _months_ w/o any adware 23:40:16 Serg[GPRS]: The only sites my roommate browses IS political sites. 23:40:22 That's 99% of what his music is about. 23:40:30 But I'm not going to argue this, like I said above. 23:40:35 oops... 23:40:38 Conversation ended. I can see this is getting me nowhere. 23:40:45 kc5tja: How's the kestrel going? 23:40:49 Not that I expected it to. 23:41:07 http://www.falvotech.com has all the latest news and downloads and screenshots, etc. 23:41:16 sadly, i can't help it remotely... 23:41:29 I was going to work on the emulator for the replacement CPU architecture, but no, I had to fucking waste my time on Windows. 23:41:34 ok, I wasn't sure if you'd made any changes since then 23:41:35 would i have free traffic, i could use Remote Admin, but in RU bytes are xpensive... 23:42:07 Serg[GPRS]: Remote Admin requires Terminal Services, no? 23:42:16 NO ! 23:42:33 it just plugs into screen, rat and kbd 23:42:34 I was asking a simple question. 23:42:44 No need to yell. Thanks. 23:42:54 no trouble :) 23:43:06 I know I'm very upset right right now, but I'd like to think I've been controlling myself unusually well tonight. 23:43:30 hehe... 23:43:45 I totally feel like shit because of this. If we can't get this box running soon, my roommate will be late on several projects, and that means loss of his income. 23:43:57 Of course, he doesn't blame me for anything, but still...I still feel bad about it. 23:44:07 i remember some cases what took 3 days and 3 thinking heads ;)) 23:44:16 But it shouldn't ahve to. 23:44:38 is WinXP legal or counterfeit ? may u try 2k ? 23:44:53 For Christ's sake, it's a fucking operating system. A single user fucking operating system. End of discussion. NOTHING should take three days to install unless it's compiling a gigabyte of C source. 23:45:00 Serg[GPRS]: It's legal. 23:45:11 I know because we still have the $250 receipt for it. 23:45:29 Plus the key code, the CD, and the almost whimsical "Getting Started with Windows" guide. What a fucking joke. 23:46:15 If I ever meet Bill Gates, I'm going to rip his fucking balls off and shove them down his god damned mother fucking throat so he can suck himself off from the INSIDE. 23:46:17 are all distributions the same, what proven to work ? 23:46:19 Asshole. 23:46:20 I fucking hate Microsoft. 23:46:29 Dude, it's Windows. 23:46:37 NONE is "Proven" to work. 23:46:47 hmm.. 23:46:48 If it did, nobody would ever have to re-install windows. Ever. 23:46:58 Windows 3.1 worked very well for me :P 23:47:04 crc: And for me. 23:47:13 i know dudes what managed to crash Linux 23:47:16 Windows 95 Beta ("Chicago") was the most stable Windows I've ever used. Hands down. 23:47:35 I haven't managed to try Win95 Beta yet 23:47:46 Win95 official wasn't that great 23:47:47 Serg[GPRS]: I've used Linux since 1995. I have crashed it precisely twice. Both times involved X11. Otherwise, it is impossible to crash Linux FROM SOFTWARE ALONE. 23:47:58 crc: No, the official release was pathetic. 23:48:10 The actual "Chicago" beta release was more solid than Win2000. 23:48:12 hmm.. i like Win98 SE 23:48:15 * crc should see if he can find a copy of the beta to try out 23:48:19 Win98 sucked! 23:48:21 Win98 in any form is a joke. 23:48:49 but it _still_ can be used on new P IV 23:49:08 So can Windows 1.0 -- what's the point? 23:49:09 So can Win95. 23:50:10 AGP + GeForce4Ti + hot Detonator on Win95 ? i doubt 23:50:38 Serg[GPRS]: AGP is just a fast, point-to-point PCI bus. As far as the CPU is concerned, it's just another PCI device. 23:51:18 unsure. let's get past it 23:51:27 And although specific drivers for the GeForce 4 chipset might not exist for Windows 95, that doesn't prevent Windows from using true-blue VGA video modes (e.g., 640x480x16 colors). Windows 95 itself will still run very well. 23:52:04 no, i mean not just 'boot' but work w/ full power 23:52:33 even CP/M can boot ;))) 23:52:34 Serg[GPRS]: Oh, well, by that logic, then even Windows XP won't run on modern hardware. 23:52:43 Serg[GPRS]: But won't run with full power. 23:52:56 hmm... 23:53:28 i rarely had any trubbles w/ any windows, and there are few reasons 23:53:33 1) broken hardware 23:53:48 2) hands growing from ass 23:54:03 Serg[GPRS]: Then in America, at least, all hardware is broken. 23:54:50 Windows is shit. Plain and simple. It shits all over its registry. It shits all over the filesystem. And it lets others shit all over e-mails, web scripts, and the like. 23:55:06 the last _great_ trubble i had, week of f...g w/ two boxes, was because of _several_ broken S3 Trio video cards 23:55:24 See, no, that's wrong. 23:55:31 That's the first mistake. 23:55:55 S3 chipsets are some of the most stable and most widely known SVGA chipsets there ever was. 23:56:11 S3 was king of the hill, like nVidia is today, for years. 23:56:42 There is, therefore, given the voluminous body of prior art driving those chipsets, **NO** **EXCUSE** for broken **DRIVERS** for those video cards. 23:57:08 I mean, c'mon! 23:57:18 but here, it craps all over the screen to varying degrees, and sometimes hangs w/ HASP dongle emulator 23:57:22 Linux has *ZERO* problems running quite stably on a variety of video chipsets. 23:57:24 Why is this? 23:57:39 Serg[GPRS]: That's all WINDOWS. 23:57:44 That is NOT the hardware. 23:57:45 --- join: crc_ (crc@0-1pool176-3.nas6.philadelphia1.pa.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 23:58:37 hmm... so gonna bring Knoppix from home and boot on that video card 23:58:43 --- quit: crc_ (Client Quit) 23:59:02 --- join: crc_ (crc@0-1pool176-3.nas6.philadelphia1.pa.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 23:59:42 did u try to shuffle Firewire card to diff slot ? 23:59:51 Serg[GPRS]: Firewire is on the motherboard. 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/04.07.17