00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.07.03
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07:23:43 <Robert> Hi
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07:50:42 <qFox> so we're painting the house
07:50:48 <qFox> and basically the whole house is white
07:51:19 <qFox> so i was cleaning the new stairs (goddamn it was so dirty, mud and everything) and so i decided to make the stairs red
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08:28:38 * Tomasu is away: store
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08:44:44 <arke> hi
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10:41:11 <I440r> argh i wanted to talk to tathi lol
10:41:14 <I440r> come back!
10:41:21 <I440r> oh there he is lol
10:41:27 <I440r> tathi you awake ?
10:41:36 <tathi_> yup, just finished eating.
10:41:49 <tathi_> I didn't quit -- must be issues with my connection grr.
10:42:00 <I440r> you cant have one isforth word drop through to the next
10:42:15 <tathi_> where'd I do that?
10:42:29 <I440r> in exec.1 
10:42:38 <qFox> shame on you!
10:42:39 <qFox> :p
10:42:44 <I440r> near the top i forget which words - give me the url to your dir and ill show yuoyu
10:42:52 <tathi_> oh.
10:42:53 <tathi_> duh.
10:43:05 <I440r> i wanted to be able to do that originally but made a design change that made it impossible
10:43:12 <tathi_> yeah, gotcha.
10:43:21 <I440r> you see where it is ?
10:43:49 <tathi_> yeah, ?exit and exit.
10:43:53 <I440r> yes
10:43:55 <I440r> thats it 
10:44:00 <I440r> do you know why that wont work ?
10:44:12 <tathi_> pointer to the nfa before the code
10:44:13 <I440r> this is something you will need to know so its good that you dod taht :)
10:44:14 <tathi_> plus the bl nest
10:44:15 <I440r> yes
10:44:28 <tathi_> I do know better. :)
10:44:46 <I440r> that cfa-4 pointer to the nfa was the only way i could figure out how to get back to the nfa given the cfa
10:45:24 <I440r> unfortunatly its a waste of list space in a turnkey. theres 4 more bytes used by every definition
10:45:36 <I440r> but it simplifies the >name definition
10:45:48 <tathi_> right.
10:46:20 <I440r> oh and im also thinking that i should make MY headers aligned too. that way there will be no difference between yours and mine
10:46:25 <I440r> not on that level anyway
10:46:48 --- nick: tathi_ -> tathi
10:47:25 <tathi> well...as long as you use name> it shouldn't matter.
10:47:48 <I440r> true
10:48:03 <tathi> Though there is one place in the find code that does it in asm.
10:48:18 <I440r> if a user makes bad assumptions about my headers he can break if he compiles for your version heh
10:48:28 <I440r> right
10:48:43 <I440r> find HAS to have carnal knowledge of the header structure
10:49:29 <tathi> oh. before I forget.
10:49:47 <tathi> http://qualdan.com/forth/isforth/does-note
10:50:05 <I440r> yes i saw that hehe
10:50:35 <I440r> can you explain it to me? i dont know ppc asm (yet)
10:50:44 <I440r> oh !!!!!!
10:51:00 <I440r> your bl does a branch, it doesnt push the return address onto the actual stack!
10:51:05 <tathi> yeah.
10:51:08 <I440r> it puts it in the link reg :)
10:51:12 <I440r> woohoo thats cool :)
10:51:13 <tathi> yup.
10:51:26 <tathi> built in top-of-return stack cache :)
10:51:37 <I440r> i dont think that difference should affect things drastically
10:51:44 <I440r> code should work in both places
10:51:58 <I440r> however - theres a problem
10:52:03 <I440r> maybe
10:52:20 <I440r> in my x86 version all CFA's are exactly 5 bytes
10:52:28 <I440r> a call instruction followed by the address
10:52:31 <tathi> right
10:52:40 <I440r> you might end up with variable width cfa's
10:52:44 <I440r> gotta make sure you dont
10:53:18 <I440r> is the bl xxxx 5 bytes ?
10:53:22 <tathi> all ppc instructions are 32 bits.
10:53:35 <tathi> the branch instruction has a 26-bit address field.
10:53:49 <I440r> ok so your cfa's are all 32 bits ?
10:53:54 <tathi> yup
10:53:54 <I440r> 4 bytes
10:53:59 <I440r> ok/. thats NOT a problem
10:54:01 <I440r> :)
10:54:06 <tathi> Unless you need to branch farther than 64MB :)
10:54:22 <I440r> well you DO have 500m of list space you know
10:54:44 <I440r> and im trying to NOT limit people to 64k
10:54:54 <I440r> so maybe thers a problem
10:55:20 <I440r> one of the things on my todo list for when isforth is ready for it is to do a complete console mode web browser
10:55:32 <I440r> then i want to make it work in a frame buffer the way links will
10:55:39 <I440r> BUT i want to do ALL the code from scratch
10:55:49 <I440r> also i want to develop a mud game
10:55:51 <tathi> yeah
10:56:01 <I440r> would be good if it could be a multi server mud game and do load balancing
10:56:14 <tathi> 500 MB of list space?
10:56:21 <tathi> I missed that
10:56:21 <I440r> look in isforth.asm
10:56:29 <tathi> Thought you were allocating 1MB
10:56:32 <I440r> er mo
10:56:37 <I440r> im lying 500k
10:56:56 <I440r> so 64m is not unreasonable
10:57:24 <tathi> OK.
10:57:24 <I440r> isforth.asm breaks out to 1 meg of space (that will be a metacompile config item tho
10:57:29 <tathi> right
10:57:33 <I440r> 500k list space and 500k head space
10:57:50 <tathi> I haven't really worried about the branch length limitation, given that I only have 128 megs of RAM on this machine :)
10:57:56 <I440r> i might add a view field to head space
10:58:10 <I440r> i.e. i might add a new field to the header structure
10:58:18 <tathi> ok
10:58:21 <I440r> hehe
10:58:26 <I440r> your limitation is NOT unreasonable
10:58:40 <I440r> so thes no problem - the problem is my memory lol
10:58:45 <I440r> not yours :)
10:58:53 <I440r> 500 KILO not MEGA
10:58:54 <I440r> duh
10:58:55 <tathi> :)
10:59:46 <I440r> this machie im on right now is on a very fat pipe. im going to have it on a static soon and ive already installed subversion
11:00:11 <I440r> im going to put isforth in a privte subversion reposatory and i think the PPC version should go in its reposatory too here
11:00:32 <I440r> the only ones with access (even READ access) to either one will be us
11:00:51 <I440r> and ofcorse the released code can go on isforth.clss.net
11:01:20 <I440r> how long before you have a running kernel ?
11:01:22 <Herkamire> why restrict read access?
11:01:36 <I440r> because there are things in my isforth directory that are as yet NOT released
11:01:39 <tathi> Subversion is great :)
11:01:46 <I440r> i want to spring them on people when they are ready hehe
11:01:51 <I440r> i love subversion
11:02:12 <I440r> its the only version control system ive ever enjoyed using
11:02:21 <tathi> speaking of which... Herkamire, are you planning on upgrading yours anytime soon? :)
11:02:41 <I440r> work was throwing out an old compaq d3eskpro with a p3, 64m of memory and a 10 gig drive
11:02:48 <I440r> i snagged another 64m from another machine
11:02:55 <I440r> put my own 30 gig drive in it
11:03:02 <I440r> installed gentoo (stage 1 install)
11:03:13 <I440r> then installed subversion
11:03:36 <I440r> the version control system they use is called starteam (by starbase but now owned by borland)
11:03:48 <I440r> this version control system has a habit of mashing on its own reposatories
11:03:58 <I440r> i.e. makes them totally unuseable after a while
11:04:21 <I440r> im going to maintain two reposatories at work. their starteam and my subversion
11:04:28 <I440r> im going to subvert them eventually
11:04:59 <I440r> tathi whats the url to your isforth port ?
11:06:05 <tathi> I440r: I've been putting stuff at qualdan.com/forth/isforth/ for the moment.
11:06:46 <I440r> ok cool
11:06:57 <I440r> i have that bookmarked at work gut wanted it here too :)
11:07:12 <I440r> i cant give you access to my subversion yet cuz im still on a private net
11:07:23 <I440r> want to move to static ip ASAP
11:08:01 <I440r> btw do you want me to explain my case statements to you ?
11:08:07 <I440r> i see you skipped over docase hehe
11:08:07 <tathi> Anyway...io.1 is fairly big, and I still have vocabs.1 left.
11:08:18 <tathi> The rest looks pretty easy.
11:08:21 <I440r> right. io.1 and compile.1 are the largest
11:08:38 <tathi> I think I'm ok with docase.  I was just being lazy and didn't want to work out register allocations. :)
11:08:45 <I440r> heheh
11:09:04 <I440r> your going to know MORE about the internals of isforth than anyone else soon
11:09:07 <tathi> I left a bunch of the scan stuff (memory.1?) for later too
11:09:13 <tathi> heh
11:09:22 <I440r> you can help me rework the isforth.clss.net documentation :)
11:09:26 <tathi> I'm learning lots of new stuff about the PPC architecture too.
11:09:27 <I440r> you jsut volunteered :P
11:09:33 <I440r> :)
11:09:51 <I440r> yea. i saw that too :)
11:13:17 <tathi> pick fetches the nth stack item, right?
11:14:24 <tathi> because your comments say "push"
11:14:35 <tathi> Oh, duh.
11:14:44 <tathi> "push _copy_ of nth stack item"
11:14:47 <tathi> never mind...
11:14:59 <I440r> pick pushes a copy of the Nth item
11:15:07 <I440r> 1 pick is dup
11:15:09 <I440r> 2 pick is over
11:15:13 <I440r> 3 pick is pluck
11:17:37 <tathi> OK...where else did I think the comments were wrong? :)
11:18:41 <I440r> heh
11:19:26 <tathi> ah, 2swap.  think your comments in the code are switched.
11:20:06 <tathi> 2swap ( n1 n2 n3 n4 --- n3 n4 n1 n2 )
11:20:08 <tathi>  xchg ebx, [esp+4]          ;swap n1,n3
11:20:16 <tathi>  mov eax, [esp+8]           ;swap n2,n4
11:20:40 <tathi>  xchg eax, [esp]
11:20:40 <tathi>  mov [esp+8], eax
11:21:27 <I440r> i think your right
11:21:49 <I440r> duh. n1 is deeper in
11:22:08 <tathi> no biggie, but I sat there for a minute, going "Huh??" :)
11:22:15 <I440r> hehe
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11:29:33 <tathi> And one more:
11:29:34 <tathi> ;       ( a1 n1 --- a1 a2 )
11:29:34 <tathi> code 'bounds', bounds
11:29:34 <tathi>  add ebx, dword [esp]       ;get a1 + a2 in
11:29:34 <tathi>  xchg ebx, dword [esp]      ;return start add at top of stack
11:29:49 <tathi> stack comment should be ( a1 n1 --- a2 a1 ) afaict
11:29:59 <I440r> right
11:30:21 <I440r> write those down for me cuz i need to break out my laptop to make those fixes to the comments
11:30:27 <I440r> and ill never remember it all lol
11:30:29 <tathi> sure.
11:30:54 <I440r> all my devel is on the laptop currently and im going to import it to subversion later today
11:31:06 <I440r> i MIGHT remember but probably not heh
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12:02:00 * Tomasu is away: movie (lion king 1 1/2 likely)
12:27:00 <arke> donde esta kc5tja?
13:11:16 * Tomasu is back (gone 01:09:16)
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14:25:15 <I440r> tbw!!! 
14:25:22 <I440r> jut stook delivery of my bed
14:25:31 <I440r> still got no box spring or matress to put on it tho
14:27:01 <TheBlueWizard> hiya I440r!!! :)
14:27:28 <TheBlueWizard> hehe...my bed now has a couple of springs poking out :)
14:28:18 * Tomasu is back (gone 00:49:18)
15:08:12 <arke> ack
15:08:17 <arke> where the heck is sam :(
15:09:17 <TheBlueWizard> sam?
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15:12:10 <Robert> kc5tja, maybe?
15:12:33 <Robert> arke: A ham loses his old identity, and becomes his call sign.
15:23:33 <TheBlueWizard> well, we know him as kc5tja here
15:25:07 <Robert> Yes. :)
15:25:31 * Robert is one of the few not using a nickname.
15:25:56 <Robert> Which is good, because Robert is such a common name.
15:26:17 <Robert> I'd never get it if everyone else didn't use more or less of nicks.
15:28:21 <slava> i'm not using a nickname either
15:29:09 * TheBlueWizard uses a nickname cuz his real name is sooooo boring :)
15:29:27 <Robert> Is Slava really a name? :)
15:29:40 <Robert> Maybw that's not a very polite question, but.. I've never heard it.
15:29:40 <slava> yes
15:30:01 <slava> its a russian name
15:30:07 <slava> shortened form of sviatoslav
15:30:33 <Robert> That's what I'd call a nick name, but sure. :)
15:31:28 <slava> hmm :)
15:39:59 <onetom> Robert: but is a real, a derived nick name not a fictious 1
15:40:11 <onetom> diferance..
15:40:12 <Robert> I know.
15:40:34 <Robert> I just reacted on the different meanings of "nick" IRC has brought.
15:41:46 <TheBlueWizard> "nick" is a broad term...basically meaning any embellishing that isn't identially to the actual name....example, Robert's nick could be Bob...or Rob...or Robbie
15:42:03 <TheBlueWizard> identically even
15:42:41 <onetom> or pig .. or whatever.. (its not identical 2 the orig 1 ;)
15:42:43 <Robert> Yeah. But I'm Robert, just that.
15:42:53 <Robert> onetom: Hrmpf!
15:43:04 <TheBlueWizard> and nicks can go much farther....like Stone Cold Austin, for example
15:43:06 <onetom> btw, nick itself is also a name.. the nick of nicolas is nick :)
15:43:30 <Robert> Hehe.
15:43:34 <TheBlueWizard> yep
15:44:03 <onetom> recursive definition? ;) roughly
15:44:08 <Robert> Every other Russian seems to be called Nick, Val or Vlad.
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16:06:00 * SolarFire greets
16:07:08 <Robert> Hi SolarFire 
16:07:10 <Robert> And jdrake 
16:08:17 * SolarFire is astonished
16:08:20 <slava> hi
16:08:53 <SolarFire> Robert is *not* on a party tour?
16:08:59 <SolarFire> ;-)
16:09:21 <SolarFire> aloha Robert slava
16:10:08 <SolarFire> ah, now..
16:10:50 <Robert> On a what?
16:11:02 <SolarFire> Robert: you want to go to bed earlier from now on, right? ;-)
16:11:12 <Robert> I do? Why? 
16:12:02 <SolarFire> don't you sigh lately that having enough sleep is sooo healthy?
16:12:23 <SolarFire> s/don't/didn't/
16:12:41 <Robert> Hmm.. Not what I can remember, but maybe. I do get enough sleep.
16:12:48 <SolarFire> jk nm
16:15:48 <SolarFire> what's the latest news?
16:16:07 <Robert> Some guy came up with a language he calls FORTH.
16:16:26 <SolarFire> slava writing asskicking cewl editors, maybe?
16:17:30 <SolarFire> Robert: oh. THAT i haven't heard yet..
16:17:46 <slava> i'm trying to write a simple copying gc
16:18:02 <Robert> gc ?
16:18:05 <I440r> real coders dont sleep
16:18:07 <I440r> or eat
16:18:11 <I440r> \or have girlfriends
16:18:23 <slava> Robert: grabage collector
16:18:25 <Robert> Ah.
16:18:30 <I440r> and we CHOOSE to do this ???????????
16:18:32 <I440r> boggle!
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16:19:13 <SolarFire> I440r: ey, that's hawt..
16:19:55 <I440r> :/
16:20:30 <Robert> Some day the coders will take over.
16:20:40 <Robert> And then the RL people will get what they deserve, FORTH.
16:20:59 <SolarFire> god beware
16:21:05 <SolarFire> sighs
16:23:31 <SolarFire> don't you know about that plane w/ mswin autopilot? ...
16:24:03 <SolarFire> oki that's not forth
16:24:44 <SolarFire> but where are those decent forth flightsims?
16:25:02 <SolarFire> is there any hope they will come at all?
16:29:40 <Topaz> i want a FORTH proc
16:29:57 <Topaz> assembly is so last-century ;D
16:30:13 <SolarFire> ting and fox are selling such
16:31:25 <Topaz> are they expensive?
16:32:40 <SolarFire> no, but that's relative of course. better have a look
16:34:04 <SolarFire> http://www.ultratechnology.com
16:39:44 <SolarFire> %$§"%$§" yes of course there is - so i thought
16:39:59 <SolarFire> whatever.. cu
16:45:35 <TheBlueWizard> well, gotta go...bye all
16:45:39 <Robert> Bye :)
16:45:52 <TheBlueWizard> bye Robert
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16:53:40 <qFox> SolarFire> fox?
16:54:02 <qFox> oh
16:54:16 <qFox> muh nm
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17:24:27 <slava> what's a good name for a word that takes a word as input, checks if its immediate and executes it, or otherwise compiles a reference to it?
17:26:17 <fridge> gerhkin
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17:29:27 <jdrake> arke, hello
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19:01:36 <slava> hi kc5tja 
19:01:41 <slava> kc5tja: what's a good name for a word that takes a word as input, checks if its immediate and executes it, or otherwise compiles a reference to it?
19:01:45 <kc5tja> Greetings.
19:02:20 <kc5tja> What do you mean by "takes a word as input"?  From the input stream?
19:02:38 <slava> well in a conventional forth, prolly from the input stream; in mine, a string object on the stack.
19:02:51 <kc5tja> If I seem to be afk a lot today, more than I usually am, it's because I have a migrane headache, and I'm in a great deal of pain at the moment
19:03:20 <kc5tja> I would probably just call it "CompileStep" or something to that effect.
19:03:23 <slava> ok.
19:03:51 <kc5tja> i don't think there is a very good name for that.
19:11:07 <slava> sorry to hear about the headache.
19:11:11 <slava> any progress on the kestrel?
19:15:17 <kc5tja> No.
19:15:32 <kc5tja> I've just plain not had the time to really sit down and code.
19:15:52 <kc5tja> And now that I hve this headache, I doubt I'll be up to coding tomorrow.
19:16:20 <kc5tja> But we'll see.  If the headache abates later today, I might be able to get some coding in later this evening.
19:28:52 --- join: Murrlin (murr@dialup-207-218-229-68.ev1.net) joined #forth
19:48:09 <jdrake> heh http://yumi.bluecherry.net/~knghtbrd/Tiger-preview.jpeg
19:52:57 <arke> kc5tja: hey
19:53:16 <arke> kc5tja: how do you exoect toi manage memory and fonts and images etc. in dolhpin?
19:53:42 * Murrlin is on the lookout for z80 coding info. namely a disassembler
19:54:10 <kc5tja> Dolphin will be a more traditionally organized operating system.
19:54:31 <slava> will it be built on top of boxforth?
19:55:10 <Murrlin> what's boxforth; dolphin...?
19:55:37 <kc5tja> slava: It will be written in Forth, yes.
19:55:39 <arke> kc5tja: I was thinking of something like Mac's resource manager.
19:55:44 <arke> kc5tja: I would even code it.
19:55:59 <kc5tja> arke: What about Mac's resource manager?  
19:56:10 * kc5tja will probably manage fonts like the Amiga does.
19:56:20 <arke> kc5tja: why not implement a similar one for dolphin? its quite nice the way it does it.
19:56:32 <kc5tja> arke: Are you reading what I'm writing?
19:56:55 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth
19:57:13 <kc5tja> I missed the "is so special" in my question:  What is so special about the Mac's resource manager?
19:57:56 <slava> kc5tja: nothing
19:58:09 <slava> kc5tja: its just a kludge to get around early macos # of files per disk limitations
19:58:37 <kc5tja> How so?
19:58:44 * kc5tja knows nothing about MacOS's resource manager.
19:59:22 <kc5tja> But the Amiga's method of handling fonts is very nice.  I'm probably going to stick with that approach, modified slightly to be a bit more logical in places.
19:59:31 <slava> it lets you create 'resource forks' which are basically a filesystem in a filesystem
19:59:34 <slava> with a single-level organization
19:59:50 <kc5tja> OK, I knew about forks.
19:59:56 <slava> instead of a directory of font files, you have a resource file with a bunch of font resources.
19:59:57 <arke> kc5tja: macs works by just caching the font if its used.
20:00:07 <arke> kc5tja: to be uber-simple about it.
20:00:14 <arke> kc5tja: also, something you might wanna consider
20:00:17 <kc5tja> And actually, forks exist not because of file limitations, but because meta-data logically goes with files, but are not distinct.
20:00:31 <kc5tja> arke: What OS doesn't?
20:00:52 <slava> kc5tja: i didn't mean forks, but resources in particular which are a way of placing several objects into 1 file and accessing them using an OS-level api
20:01:26 <arke> kc5tja: pointers to pointers for allocated blocks of mem
20:01:45 <kc5tja> arke: That often turns out to be a monster to deal with.
20:02:22 <jdrake> hey areke
20:02:30 <jdrake> #noahsarke
20:02:31 <kc5tja> arke: I agree with the concept in general, but it really does require hardware-supported segmentation to pull it off transparently in software.
20:02:45 <slava> macos handles?
20:02:48 <slava> they don't have hardware support
20:02:57 <slava> you just write foo** in your C code
20:03:38 <kc5tja> slava: Yes, and talk to any MacOS programmer, and ask them about it.  They will likely blow their cork.  I have yet to meet even *one* programmer who likes dealing with **'s in C.
20:04:11 <slava> hehe
20:04:15 <kc5tja> Especially when you have data structures that refer to other structures: instead of pointers to pointers, you have pointers to pointers to pointers to pointers.  Not cool.
20:04:24 <kc5tja> This is where x86 got segmentation right.
20:04:28 <slava> it was mostly to a) support heap compaction b) support 'purgeable' blocks which would be freed when memory was low
20:04:35 <kc5tja> It's a damn shame that it not only was rejected, but even outright shunned.
20:04:47 <arke> :)
20:04:48 <kc5tja> slava: I know why it's there.
20:04:52 <kc5tja> That's not the point.
20:04:56 <kc5tja> Smalltalk uses them exclusively.
20:05:04 <kc5tja> (in fact, that's where MacOS got the idea from)
20:06:22 <kc5tja> I personally don't see any logical way to manage memory nicely without using them, BUT, there is no easy way (even in Forth!) to deal with them.
20:06:29 <jdrake> "It has been shown in laboratory studies that the average chimpanzee can, with Visual Basic, create a new program which exploits some security hole in Microsoft Outlook within 10-15 minutes of random clicking on pictures. Your results may vary, depending on whether you have learned to use your opposable thumbs. (Visual Basic)"
20:06:46 <Murrlin> gahaha
20:08:26 <kc5tja> My head feels like someone has beaten me solidly about the head and shoulders with an aluminum baseball bat filled with wet sand.
20:08:59 <kc5tja> So if I seem even more cranky than I usually am, that's why.  <-- suffering from stress-induced migrane.
20:09:42 <jdrake> kc5tja, maybe you need a back rub
20:12:33 <tathi> kc5tja: could you elaborate on "This is where x86 got segmentation right"?
20:18:32 <kc5tja> tathi: x86 protected mode segments can be located anywhere in memory, and be explicitly sized (so that references to memory beyond the segment gets trapped).
20:19:09 <kc5tja> tathi: A single selector value is used to reference a segment, regardless of where the segment actually resides in memory.  In fact, the segment can actually be in the process of moving *as* the application is referencing it, without problems.
20:19:42 <tathi> huh.  didn't realize they were that flexible.
20:19:47 <kc5tja> From a structural point of view, a segment in protected mode *is* a pointer-to-a-pointer type of handle architecture.
20:20:06 <tathi> gotcha
20:20:13 <jdrake> "I love deadlines. I love the whooshing sound they make as they fly by. (Douglas Adams)"
20:20:18 <tathi> thanks
20:20:23 <kc5tja> But the details of dereferencing and caching the appropriate pointers is handled by the hardware.
20:20:28 <tathi> right.
20:20:46 <kc5tja> jdrake: heh
20:20:57 <kc5tja> jdrake: A back-rub right now will only make it worse.
20:22:22 <Murrlin> we'll miss you, Mr. Adams
20:27:27 <jdrake> C++ is like usury on your soul
20:33:53 --- quit: Murrlin ("Mischief managed! ....Nox.")
20:39:36 <tathi> I440r: you there?
20:39:44 <tathi> I440r: does isforth's double-cell number math work?
20:40:42 <I440r> yes
20:40:51 <I440r> at least i HOPE it does lol
20:40:55 <tathi> gah.  I'm reading the code wrong again.
20:41:02 <tathi> never mind.
20:41:44 <I440r> hehe
20:42:13 <slava> I440r: can you post screenshots of your ncurses stuff in is4th
20:42:37 <I440r> slava cant you run it ?
20:42:49 <slava> I440r: no, remember that mprotect segfualt in fbsd
20:42:50 <I440r> ./isforth -fload src/examples/window.f
20:43:04 <I440r> oh yea.
20:43:13 <I440r> erm. does anyone have a shell he can use to launch it from ?
20:43:26 <I440r> id make one for you here but im not on a static yet
20:44:01 <slava> I440r: do you plan on metacompiling isforth?
20:44:07 <I440r> hell yes
20:44:15 <I440r> thats a very high priority
20:45:08 <slava> what else is planned?
20:45:43 <I440r> writing a MUD game 
20:45:49 <I440r> so ill need multi tasking
20:46:01 <I440r> need to finish the sockets stuff too
20:46:18 <I440r> want to do a web browser too
20:46:27 <slava> *browser*?
20:46:56 <I440r> yes
20:46:59 <I440r> like links
20:47:05 <I440r> but not using any of their code
20:47:36 <slava> why?
20:47:44 <I440r> why do mountaineers climb mountains
20:47:49 <slava> haha
20:47:55 <slava> i wrote a web server in my language
20:48:08 <I440r> server is relativly easy
20:48:12 <slava> the aim is to be a nicer web development environment, with 10x less bloat than java :)
20:48:15 <I440r> browser is very difficult heh
20:48:23 <I440r> yes
20:48:26 <I440r> java is horrible
20:52:36 <I440r> i wish i could permanantly disable java and java script
20:52:44 <I440r> but way to omany sites use it
20:52:50 <slava> javascript is unrelated to java
20:53:05 <I440r> totally unrelated ?
20:53:12 <slava> yes
20:53:16 <slava> javascript is more like self than java
20:53:22 <I440r> then why the common name
20:53:25 <slava> prototype OO, dynamic types, etc.
20:53:28 <slava> common name is marketing
20:53:37 <slava> js used to be livescript but netscape wanted to get on the java hype wagon
20:53:47 <I440r> ugh
20:53:57 <Herkamire> heh
20:53:58 <slava> just like sun calls their linux disto java desktop system
20:54:00 <I440r> netscape is responsible for 98% of whats wrong with the net today
20:54:02 <Herkamire> well I still hate both of them so there
20:54:05 <I440r> i.e. FRAMES
20:54:12 <slava> noone uses frames anymore\
20:54:19 <I440r> err yes they do
20:54:27 <Herkamire> yes they do
20:54:38 <Herkamire> try browsing with a browser that doesn't support frames, and you'll find plenty
21:03:48 --- quit: tathi ("bed")
21:04:30 --- join: aum_ (~aum@port-204-54-210.fastadsl.net.nz) joined #forth
21:08:05 <kc5tja> Frames are used extensively also by products that are administered by the web -- e.g., routers, firewalls, etc.
21:14:44 <arke> I could write a simple browser
21:14:51 <kc5tja> However, that being the case, who would you rather blame more for Internet inadequacies: Netscape, for introducing frames and Javascript, or Microsoft, for all but shutting out every other browser in the world from viewing 98% of the Internet's existing content?
21:14:54 <arke> Because I wouldn't go off.
21:15:17 <arke> kc5tja: CERT said you shouldn't use IE :)
21:15:18 <I440r> its browser wars and WE pay
21:15:24 <arke> kc5tja: DoHS actualy :)
21:16:07 <kc5tja> Well, our customers administer their boxen using the web (Plesk, cPanel, etc).  IE 6.x doesn't work with these interfaces in most cases.
21:16:42 <kc5tja> There's a problem when MSIE can't view bog-standard HTML with *light* Javascript (by light, I mean, less than 1% of the code emitted by the web servers).
21:20:26 <arke> Javascript is evil anyway
21:20:38 <arke> ;)
21:20:41 <arke> hmm
21:20:54 <kc5tja> There is nothing really wrong with Javascript.
21:20:56 <kc5tja> It's how you use it.
21:21:09 <arke> kc5tja: theres too much too javascript 
21:21:12 <kc5tja> I use Javascript to display proper "last updated" times on my website.
21:21:13 <arke> thats what makes it evil
21:21:13 <arke> ;)
21:25:39 <Herkamire> the evil thing about javascript is that it can pop up windows and dialog boxes
21:26:18 <kc5tja> Even that isn't so bad as long as it's used properly and with an eye for the user.
21:26:26 <Herkamire> and I'm not sure I like it being able to move stuff around on the page while I'm trying to look at it either.
21:27:03 <Herkamire> kc5tja: I agree you can make some great websites with javascript. but it also enables making unmentionably horrid sites
21:27:18 <kc5tja> yep
21:27:51 <Herkamire> given all the talk about popup blockers, I think I'm not alone in thinking that javascript should not be able to do some of the things it can
21:28:30 <kc5tja> If I were to make a browser for the Kestrel, I probably just wouldn't include Javascript at all.
21:28:42 <Herkamire> likewise
21:28:54 <kc5tja> Java?  Maybe.  Javascript?  No.
21:29:28 <kc5tja> Or, at the very least, include a white-list database of which sites to enable it for, but for all other sites, keep it disabled.
21:29:39 <Herkamire> except I'd probably put in a hack to use links like <a href="openURL('http://example.com')">
21:30:55 <Herkamire> just thinking about trying to make a browser support all the crappy websites out there makes me mad
21:31:38 <kc5tja> Hehe -- maybe I should write to the Dillo folks and have them change the name of their browser to "Attitude."
21:32:13 <kc5tja> Attitude: Because we're too good for most sites.
21:33:13 <aum_> you think that's bad, just wait till M$ get all their sycophantic 'webmasters' using patented M$-specific proprietary web protocol
21:33:29 <kc5tja> aum_: You mean they aren't already?
21:33:40 <Herkamire> kc5tja: hehe :)
21:33:40 <aum_> it could even end up illegal for Mozilla to render M$-specific components
21:33:46 <Herkamire> kc5tja: why do you say that about dillo?
21:33:54 <slava> moving forth is good
21:34:07 <kc5tja> Herkamire: Because it completely ignores Javascript and has no idea how to handle the hacks like what you talk about above.
21:34:15 <aum_> are there any forth-powered websites?
21:34:27 <Herkamire> kc5tja: iirc it's on their bug list to do what I suggested
21:34:29 <kc5tja> aum_: Define "Forth powered."
21:34:49 <aum_> kc5tja: server-side scripted, with forth as the language
21:34:55 <Herkamire> kc5tja: but aside from that (and I'm not even sure about that) they intend to not support javascript
21:35:16 <Herkamire> aum_: yes
21:35:18 <aum_> kc5tja: or even, with the httpd itself written in forth
21:35:26 <aum_> Herkamire: can u point me 2 any examples?
21:35:33 <kc5tja> aum_: There are two that I'm aware of.  Bernd Paysan's page is static HTML, but the content is formatted with a Forth script.  The other is a certain FIG site, who's link I can't recall at the moment.
21:36:07 <Herkamire> aum_: no. I've been to one recently, but last time I looked for it I couldn't find it.
21:36:08 <kc5tja> The FIG site uses GForth to process CGI.
21:36:15 <I440r> lol
21:36:23 <I440r> kc how do you know that btw ?
21:37:20 <kc5tja> http://www.jwdt.com/~paysan/  --  Paysan's website
21:37:33 <kc5tja> I440r: Because they wouldn't shut up about it on their website.
21:37:50 <I440r> oh
21:37:57 <I440r> that MIGHT be a clue :/
21:39:25 <kc5tja> Hmm, they changed their site.  They don't brag about it nearly as much.  
21:39:35 <kc5tja> http://www.forth.org/programming.html  --  Information on using Forth as CGI, and FIG itself uses it.
21:40:06 <kc5tja> Oops, I said they used GForth.  Sorry, it was pfe.
21:42:05 <jdrake> the so called productivity advances forth is said to provide, does that relate the the interactive environment or including an edit and run cycle like something you might do with python
21:42:28 <kc5tja> jdrake: They are the same.
21:42:43 <kc5tja> jdrake: Python's rapid development cycle stems directly from its interactivity.  Likewise with Forth.
21:43:02 <jdrake> kc5tja, that isn't what I am referring to exactly
21:43:10 <Herkamire> I'm listening to "hit the road jack, and don't you come back no more"
21:43:24 <kc5tja> jdrake: re-reading the question...
21:43:28 <jdrake> what I refer to is using an editor like subethaedit (or notepad for windows users)
21:43:36 <kc5tja> (remember, my vision is affected by this headache, so I can be missing something)
21:43:54 <I440r> kc5 your getting alot of headaches these days
21:43:59 <I440r> have you seen a doctor ?
21:44:11 <kc5tja> I440r: This is the first headache I've had in at least two or three months.
21:44:19 <kc5tja> And yes, I have -- I already said what it was -- migrane.
21:44:41 <I440r> k
21:45:45 * kc5tja is not familiar with subethaedit -- never even heard of it before, in fact.
21:46:03 <jdrake> kc5tja, you don't know what you are missing :-) although it is mac only
21:46:23 <kc5tja> However, here is what I find I like most about Forth, and maybe you can relate this to your question.
21:46:39 <jdrake> it is basically something you can have people edit the document along with you with changes being marked as owned by somebody
21:46:43 <kc5tja> I like blocks, primarily because block editors are small and fast, and able to reside 100% inside the Forth environment itself.
21:47:10 <jdrake> try to keep to the forth language rather than forth system
21:47:15 <kc5tja> Applications in Forth are overlays, so loading the block editor overlays the last piece of code in the dictionary.
21:47:47 <kc5tja> jdrake: I build a Forth system from the Forth language.  I'm not entirely sure the two can be 100% distinguished.
21:48:10 <jdrake> the language itself is something like I will be running with ficl
21:48:25 <kc5tja> Besides, any editor that embeds and relies on Python is equivalent to Python possessing the editor as an integral component -- thus, you end up with a system.  So what's the difference?
21:49:40 * aum_ has embedded the python VM, OO engine and libs within Forth
21:49:52 <kc5tja> Then how about this: Forth is more productive for me because I think in Forth.  Or, more accurately, programming in Forth more closely models human thought.
21:49:58 <aum_> Forth dates Python, produces ForPy
21:50:16 <jdrake> kc5tja, i have never witnessed a stack in my mind
21:50:29 <I440r> jdrake that doesnt mean you dont use one :)
21:50:31 <slava> don't think in terms of the stack directly
21:50:37 <kc5tja> jdrake: You've never had to put anything "on hold" while you performed some other action?
21:50:42 <jdrake> I440r, shh
21:50:45 <I440r> lol
21:51:06 <jdrake> kc5tja, can I answer no?
21:51:14 <kc5tja> Whether it's putting the phone down to answer the door, or saying, "Shucks, I need to define variable FOO to hold BAR," you're always working with some kind of mental stack.
21:51:42 <kc5tja> If you answer no, I'll be highly suspicious of your genuine interest in receiving an answer to the question.
21:51:49 <I440r> :)
21:51:54 <kc5tja> But you are, of course, able to answer no if you wish.
21:52:04 <I440r> you cant win jdrake, he has you beat and you know it :P
21:52:06 <Herkamire> :)
21:52:40 <Herkamire> I also find that forth maps better to my thinking style
21:53:00 * jdrake runs away without providing an incriminating answer
21:53:11 <kc5tja> Whatever, though -- I give up.  jc already violently accused me of being a know-it-all, someone who always has to have his way, and who is not tolerant of other people's thoughts.
21:53:15 <kc5tja> jdrake: :)
21:54:01 <I440r> show me an unopinionated coder and ill show you a bad coder :P
21:54:02 <kc5tja> I'm just not made for this world, I guess.
21:54:03 <jdrake> kc5tja, you almost describe the way smerdyakov used to behave like
21:54:07 <I440r> were all good and we know it :)
21:54:13 <Herkamire> I440r: hehe
21:54:16 <jdrake> kc5tja, but I can guarantee you are nothing like that way really
21:54:18 <I440r> lol
21:55:12 <kc5tja> Well, especially yesterday, when he started virtually *ordering* me to use his style of ripping CDs, and when I voiced something to the effect that I'm content with my current approach, he went off on his own little tirade.
21:55:29 <kc5tja> Now that I look back on it, it is quite amusing.
21:55:38 <kc5tja> But at the time, my feelings were very, very, very badly bruised.
21:57:37 <kc5tja> At any rate, I'm going to *try* and see if I can't make some more progress on the Kestrel.
22:11:35 <Herkamire> kc5tja: it's not that you suck at explaining things or covincing people... it's just that people are too stuborn to learn the kinds of things we want to teach them.
22:12:17 <Herkamire> mostly they have a little curiosity, and are mostly looking for opinions to back up what they've already decided they want to believe
22:13:19 <Klaw> Herkamire: let's put LSD in the water supply
22:13:32 <I440r> lol
22:13:47 <I440r> hrm you dknt suppose they already did eh ?
22:13:49 <I440r> lol
22:14:11 <Herkamire> probably not LSD... craploads of chlorine though.
22:14:13 <Klaw> not for 30 years
22:14:25 <Klaw> in hawaii they put in cow manure
22:14:28 <Klaw> or at least, the cows do.
22:16:16 <Herkamire> wow, I've gotten so used to using the herkforth editor for the source
22:16:27 <I440r> time to go zzz
22:16:32 <Herkamire> I'm using vim for a sec, and I keep hitting the herkforth keys
22:16:34 <I440r> unfortunatly not in my new bed :/
22:18:17 <kc5tja> Herkamire: Heheh :D
22:18:26 <slava> "Chuck
22:18:26 <slava> showed Mike that he had written the core of the CAD application
22:18:26 <slava> in about five lines of code.  When Mike asked him how long it
22:18:26 <slava> had taken, he replied, "Oh, about two years."
22:18:28 <kc5tja> Herkamire: That's why my block editor is modeled after VIM.  :D
22:18:30 <slava> "
22:20:06 <kc5tja> Hehe
22:21:09 <kc5tja> slava: The core of my editor is about 10 lines.
22:21:30 <kc5tja> The rest of the editor is essentially "plug-ins" that are invoked by the core.
22:23:14 <jdrake> does something like a 'cookie' in the webbrowser sense sound like a good storage method for a ficl-based environment for games?
22:23:46 <kc5tja> jdrake: Depends on how much stuff you want to store.  I think cookies can only store so many bytes.
22:23:55 <kc5tja> I'm not sure what the limit is though.
22:24:06 <jdrake> generally they do yes, but this kind of concept doesn't have to have to be too small
22:25:13 <Herkamire> kc5tja: =)
22:26:48 <jdrake> how much did games like final fantasy (1) have to store data?
22:26:56 <slava> kc5tja: what ideas did pygmy borrow from cmforth?
22:27:07 <kc5tja> slava: Almost everything.
22:27:14 <Herkamire> grrrrrrr can't find bug
22:27:15 <kc5tja> jdrake: I don't know.  I never played FF1.
22:28:23 <kc5tja> The save-game information for Neverwinter Nights is several megabytes in size though.
22:29:12 <jdrake> is that a modern game?
22:29:31 <kc5tja> Yes.  :)
22:29:37 <Herkamire> heh, found it :)
22:29:45 <jdrake> well, anyways
22:29:47 <kc5tja> It's the only RPG I really played to completion.
22:29:52 <jdrake> time to go read then night
22:30:01 <kc5tja> okay.  Night jdrake 
22:30:08 <Herkamire> gnight jdrake :)
22:30:16 * kc5tja has to get to bed soon too -- my eye is killing me -- freaking migrane.  >:(
22:30:30 <jdrake> kc5tja, go now and get more rest ;-)
22:32:03 <arke> good night
22:34:48 <kc5tja> Damn it, I can't figure out how to start coding for the text cursor.
22:35:02 * kc5tja sighs
22:35:41 <slava> VARIABLE CURSOR-X VARIABLE CURSOR-Y : AT-XY CURSOR-Y ! CURSOR-X ! ; i dunno... :)
22:35:44 * Tomasu is away: night
22:49:38 --- quit: jdrake (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
23:01:57 <kc5tja> slava: (1) Kind of hard to do when Forth isn't available on the target platform, and (2) no kidding, wise-ass.  :)
23:02:21 <kc5tja> But there is much that needs to be done before I can write the OS code it seems.  The problem is determining where to start.
23:02:25 <kc5tja> Anyway, I'm off to bed.
23:02:30 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK")
23:12:06 <arke> can i just do 1 BLOCK in gforth without problems? :)
23:13:54 <arke> or rather I should say
23:13:59 <slava> hey arke :-)
23:14:14 <arke> how do I allocate 1 block's worth of memory in ANS and then set a block to it or whatever?
23:14:17 <arke> hi slava :)
23:14:28 <slava> malloc(1024);
23:14:30 <slava> oops
23:14:32 <slava> wrong language :-P
23:15:39 <arke> ack.
23:15:48 <arke> this ANS thing seems so incomplete
23:20:03 <arke> kc5tja's VIBE is ANS, right?
23:20:40 <Herkamire> VIBE runs under gforth
23:20:49 <Herkamire> I don't know if it's ANS
23:21:34 <arke> ok
23:21:38 <arke> it probably is then
23:21:38 <arke> yay
23:21:53 <arke> i refuse to work with files when dealing with forth
23:22:00 <arke> blocks are the way to go.
23:25:47 <arke> :(
23:25:53 <arke> doesn't seem to work quite right
23:27:27 <arke> gawd
23:27:34 <arke> i need a text editor
23:27:35 <arke> lol
23:29:45 <Herkamire> ask kc5tja about VIBE.
23:30:33 <Herkamire> iirc when I tried it it didn't work and he sent me a working version. I don't know if he posted the working version.
23:30:47 <Herkamire> it was a while ago, but it's possible this is still the case
23:32:10 <arke> :/
23:32:21 <arke> screw it
23:32:24 <arke> i'll just write me own
23:33:53 <arke> ;)
23:34:02 <arke> is there an ANS word to figure out terminal dimensions?
23:35:03 <arke> hmm, seems like there isn't. thats fine.
23:36:13 <Herkamire> no, that sucks
23:36:31 <Herkamire> also that it's such a pain to find them in linux
23:37:35 <slava> we should all be doing guis now
23:39:34 <slava> since i started playing with forth and related languages, my style of coding has changed completely, even in java.
23:39:44 <slava> i look at my older code and cringe at the huge methods etc
23:41:52 <Herkamire> slava: that's awesome :)
23:41:55 <Herkamire> why guis?
23:42:11 <slava> well, vt100 is a very limited paradigm
23:43:12 <Herkamire> the keyboard input sucks, but I don't mind the output too much
23:43:58 <slava> the question is why isn't there a gui toolkit that makes simple apps as easy to develop as command line ones?
23:44:05 <Herkamire> it's worth the hastle of generating silly escape sequences and keeping track of where the cursor is because: I can copy from the terminal
23:44:23 <Herkamire> paradigms
23:44:41 <Herkamire> there's all these rules about how you're supposed to make guis
23:44:47 <Herkamire> and they make it aweful
23:44:54 <slava> sometimes, yes
23:45:31 <Herkamire> maybe it doesn't exist because it would be trivial to make yourself
23:45:38 <Herkamire> it's to simple for anybody to take seriously
23:45:39 <slava> heh
23:45:40 <arke> 80 constant term-w
23:45:41 <arke> 25 constant term-h
23:45:45 <arke> good 'nuff
23:45:52 <slava> arke: I440r has ncurses code for this
23:45:59 <arke> phht.
23:46:03 <Herkamire> you can use SDL a blitting routine and an image of your font and whatever else. a line routine, a box routine.
23:46:12 <arke> this is just a real simple dirty hack to make my life simple.
23:46:13 <arke> :)
23:46:31 <Herkamire> arke: I too have constants for the terminal dimentions.
23:46:34 <slava> Herkamire: i'd go with opengl not sdl since opengl will do stuff like lines an fills in hardware
23:46:50 <Herkamire> I thought about having a configure script that would fix them... I'm definately not going to detect them in forth.
23:46:55 <slava> in fact i plan an opengl binding for factor at some stage
23:47:08 <Herkamire> slava: so compile in opengl support to SDL
23:47:12 <slava> and writing some kind of keyboard-driven zoomable ui... but maybe not for a long time :)
23:47:22 <Herkamire> me too
23:47:31 <slava> Herkamire: i thought sdl just gave you a memory buffer to draw pixels in
23:47:35 <slava> how would opengl benefit this?
23:48:30 <arke> slava: OGL, with HW, draws in that buffer.
23:48:44 <arke> slava: SDL and OGL coordinate to find a buffer they can _both) use
23:48:47 <Herkamire> I don't know that much about it. The point I was trying to make was that you can get hardware blits in SDL
23:49:03 <slava> so why not skip sdl completely and go with ogl
23:49:27 <arke> cuz OGL only provides those simple things
23:49:36 <arke> SDL gives you input, threads, etc. etc. etc.
23:49:38 <Herkamire> SDL has great input stuff
23:49:47 <slava> oh.
23:49:51 <Herkamire> best I've seen anywhere
23:49:56 <slava> i don't need threads but input & audio would be useful.
23:50:33 <Herkamire> SDL has extentions to load images, load/play sounds etc
23:52:03 <arke> ack
23:52:06 <arke> why the hell am i doing this
23:52:25 <arke> I only have 4 hours until I have to get ready to go to the airporrt
23:52:26 <arke> lol
23:53:47 <arke> awesome
23:53:50 <arke> debian downloading
23:53:50 <arke> lol
23:54:32 <arke> oh my god
23:54:41 <arke> my computer is processing like old people fuck
23:54:43 <arke> slow and sloppy
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/04.07.03