00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.06.28
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00:53:32 <arke> hah.
00:53:49 <arke> ph33r, kc5tja, you're PT-4 won't have anything on my RK-2
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02:55:26 <ASau> aum, Gforth is actively developped/
02:56:11 <ASau> Read the source in doubt, documentation is generated out of comments.
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03:16:13 <aum> ok
03:54:52 <ASau> BTW, it's a bad habit to consider sources as holy and untouchable.
03:55:02 <ASau> It's not the Forth way.
03:58:31 <ASau> And it's not Open Source way.
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04:57:40 * aum does first successful test of 'fsh', a forth-based unix shell
05:05:45 <ASau> How goes?
05:05:56 <aum> working well
05:06:09 <ASau> Examples?
05:06:17 <ASau> Or source?
05:06:34 <aum> it's basically a parse step which does a 'which' on the word, and if 'which' returns anything, executes the word and the rest of the line in a shell
05:07:03 <aum> i'm now thinking of variants, to allow capturing the shell command's output as a string onto the stack
05:07:39 <aum> either a string, or a readable file object (via popen3)
05:08:18 <I4_wrk> my god this just wont do! hehe
05:08:31 <I4_wrk> #forth is filling up and becoming ACTIVE more often than not!
05:08:41 <aum> yes, it's a travesty
05:08:43 --- nick: I4_wrk -> I440r_
05:08:48 <I440r_> sure is!
05:08:57 <I440r_> how am i gona sleep at work if yer all in here chattin
05:08:59 <I440r_> :/
05:09:03 <aum> forth h4x045 are all supposed to be off writing their own forths
05:09:12 <I440r_> no
05:09:20 <I440r_> they are supposed to be developing shit for isforth
05:09:22 <I440r_> dammit!
05:10:16 <aum> I440r_: I tried a few forths with recursive fibbonacci, isforth is way and above the fastest (Except for gforth, which is a tiny bit faster again)
05:10:59 <I440r_> yea ?
05:11:02 <I440r_> !
05:11:04 <I440r_> blink!
05:11:07 <aum> I440r_: are you considering implementations of isforth for other processors (Eg 68k, solaris, sparc, powerpc, ARM etc)?
05:11:30 <I440r_> yes but as i dont have any of those machines or time to port i would be interested in anyone who might want to help
05:11:37 <aum> gforth does suffer from bloatage
05:11:51 <I440r_> well so does isforth but its all OPTIONABLE hehe
05:12:29 <I440r_> try comparing the fib to a c recursive fib
05:12:32 <aum> what makes or breaks a forth in my scenario is the quality and completeness of doco, followed by clarity/comments/hackability of source
05:12:37 <I440r_> i think the c would be faster
05:12:48 <aum> both isforth and gforth leave c recursive fib in the dust
05:12:50 <I440r_> well im a fixin the doc's heh
05:13:36 <aum> I440r_ that would be good - if you can come up with a nice clean easy-to-use C api, and write it up, i'll parse my python extensions to isforth
05:14:10 <aum> i'm going mad with the comfort and freedom of having python's OO engine embedded in FICL
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05:14:23 <aum> bbiab
05:17:13 <I440r_> heh
05:17:38 <I440r_> ill be writing an extension to allow isforth to link c libs... eventually
05:20:48 <I440r_> from a post on CLF
05:20:58 <I440r_> LOL! From this hostile horde! All you do is spend your time attacking 
05:20:58 <I440r_> each-other. I don't wish to be cruel or negative but you folks are cruel 
05:20:58 <I440r_> and negative.
05:21:02 <I440r_> lol!!
05:22:35 <Robert> Heh
05:22:45 * Robert stays off usenet :P
05:23:11 <ASau> I440r, do you know public accessable NNTP server?
05:23:32 <ASau> And with R/W access to CLF?
05:24:01 <I440r_> groups.google.com :(
05:25:19 <ASau> ?
05:25:33 <ASau> It does not connect to 119 port.
05:25:37 <I440r_> no
05:25:45 <I440r_> you go to that url and post through it
05:26:09 <ASau> Oh, no!
05:26:17 <ASau> Web interface!
05:26:32 <ASau> No, I don't get it.
05:26:54 <I440r_> :/
05:32:16 <qFox> I440r> you the author of isforth?
05:36:13 <aum> wtf? my ISP has clf available, but hardly any messages, like it's not getting the full feed
05:38:33 <aum> WHO OWNS THIS CHANNEL??!?
05:39:02 <I440r_> heh
05:39:09 <aum> SOMEONE IS RUNNING A LOGBOT WHICH POSTS TRANSCRIPTS TO THE WEB AND FEEDS THEM TO GOOGLE
05:39:16 <I440r_> futhin does or... its MY channel but futhin manages it 
05:39:17 <I440r_> or...
05:39:25 <I440r_> pick someone - thats who own it :)
05:39:44 <I440r_> qfox yes im the author of isforth
05:40:00 <qFox> aum> take your pick ;)
05:40:02 <aum> I'm not happy that whatever I type here ends up in fucking google
05:40:08 <I440r_> yes, thats clog :)
05:40:12 <qFox> aum> cmem logs, and um
05:40:15 <qFox> clog
05:40:16 <qFox> too
05:40:22 <I440r_> clog is the channel mascot
05:40:28 <I440r_> he is most welcome :)
05:40:30 <qFox> i thought it logged as well?
05:40:38 <I440r_> it does
05:40:41 --- topic: set to 'FORTH programming language. Info: http://forth.bespin.org/resources/introduction ANSI: http://www.taygeta.com/forth/dpans.htm FIG83: http://forth.sourceforge.net/standard/fst83/ || :NOTICE: Kestrel project update!  See http://www.falvotech.com/weblog for more details. || http://www.memnonio.com/forth.html || PLEASE NOTE - THIS CHANNEL IS BEING LOGGED AND TRANSCRIPTS POSTED TO THE WEB AND INTO GOOGLE' by aum
05:40:43 <I440r_> clog stands for "channel lob"
05:40:49 <qFox> aum> if you're worrying about google on your nick, you're too late now :p
05:40:59 <I440r_> aum how did you change the topic ?
05:41:02 <qFox> aum> its called public logging...
05:41:21 <qFox> he added the last part, obviously
05:41:24 <aum> i don't agree with public logging without people knowing it's happening
05:41:33 <I440r_> oh its not set to ops only lol
05:41:41 <qFox> you didnt know? :)
05:41:56 <I440r_> i wish my limit 83 joke was still in place
05:42:01 <qFox> I440r> anyways, do you have an image with just a "machine" forth instruction set?
05:42:02 <I440r_> hmm
05:42:13 <I440r_> nope
05:42:15 <aum> no, i wasn't aware
05:42:18 <qFox> I440r> limit is 83...
05:42:53 <qFox> k..
05:42:55 <I440r_> dammit how can i identify as I440r without being I440r. it wont allow me to
05:43:34 <qFox> heh
05:43:45 <qFox> then ghostkill I440r
05:43:59 <qFox> should be possible
05:44:01 <I440r_> no because thats me too (from home :)
05:44:03 <aum> i've seen channel bots going mustang and kickbanning everyone who joins
05:44:05 <qFox> aye i understand
05:44:09 <qFox> but it'll reconnect, wont it?
05:44:24 <I440r_> dunno
05:44:31 <qFox> plus, what do you want to change?
05:44:41 <qFox> this chan has been -t for as long as i've been here...
05:44:56 <qFox> most freenode chans are
05:45:02 <qFox> (as well as opless..)
05:45:48 --- topic: set to 'FORTH programming language. Info: http://forth.bespin.org/resources/introduction ANSI: http://www.taygeta.com/forth/dpans.htm FIG83: http://forth.sourceforge.net/standard/fst83/ || :NOTICE: Kestrel project update!  See http://www.falvotech.com/weblog for more details. || http://www.memnonio.com/forth.html || Note: this chan is publicly logged.' by qFox
05:45:54 <qFox> caps hurt
05:46:46 <qFox> aum> google on forth and goatse.cx ;)
05:47:25 <qFox> but there is someone else who's publicly logging as well.... if its not clog, then herk perhaps?
05:47:51 <aum> public logging without topic warning is unethical and a breach of privacy
05:48:04 <qFox> uh, sure
05:48:22 <I440r_> lol
05:48:34 <qFox> i suggest you whois cmeme, and dont any of those chans.
05:49:12 * aum is more than a little bit suspicious of google
05:49:24 <qFox> oh this i've got to hear, why
05:49:53 <aum> google's a great search engine, but they get up to some pretty suss practices, eg permanent cookies
05:50:15 <aum> they keep a database on all searches done from each given cookie, as well as IP addresses
05:50:15 <qFox> yeah, or you can just not give much of a damn...
05:50:41 <qFox> ok, what if htye did, what is according to you the problem?
05:50:58 <aum> civil liberties
05:51:07 <qFox> be more specific
05:51:17 <qFox> that covers too much
05:51:37 <aum> under the PATRIOT Act any narc can walk in and access google's database, and get anyone's search history, with no judicial oversight
05:52:07 <qFox> uhm, and you're confident the same cant be done with your isp?
05:52:14 <qFox> you think your isp doesnt log anything?
05:52:15 <ASau> We have no patriot act.
05:52:17 <qFox> hello...
05:52:47 <aum> the patriot act is spreading like AIDS - NZ has one, Australia has one, the UK has one even worse
05:53:06 <aum> the US is offering trade concessions in return for nations passing similar legislation
05:53:27 <qFox> dont get me wrong or anything, i remove spyware/addware when i encounter it, and avoid it at almost all costs, but thats merely because spyware tends to fuck up your system
05:53:29 <aum> anyway, bed times for me
05:53:51 <aum> excuse earlier rants - thx qFox for preserving the warning in the topic
05:53:57 <aum> nite all
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05:54:00 <qFox> np..
05:55:11 <qFox> now lets see, this spiderman2 game is supposed to be muchos better then the first version
05:55:58 <qFox> that one required about 3 hands minimum for gamecontrol :p
05:56:07 <qFox> (camera, movement, aim)
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06:02:32 <qFox> looking good so far
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06:46:19 <I440r_> anyone here read ultratechnology.com articles much ?
06:47:01 <Robert> I've read a few of them, why?
06:47:26 <I440r_> because im looking for the article where he talks about the chip intel was trying to microcode in c
06:47:32 <I440r_> and ive no idea which article thats in
06:48:35 <Robert> Sorry, never heard of that :/
06:48:52 <Robert> Since I obviously haven't laughed myself to death... :)
06:51:17 <ASau> I can't recall anything of this kind too.
06:54:59 <I440r_> im posative it was from ultratechnology.com
06:55:19 <I440r_> he talked about a processor intel spent BILLIONS on where they were trying to microcode it in c
06:56:40 <tathi> Huh.
06:56:56 <tathi> Google isn't coming up with anything that looks like that...
07:00:58 <I440r_> i know
07:03:44 <tathi> unless it was in one of the videos maybe?
07:06:08 <I440r_> no it wasnt a video
07:06:41 <I440r_> erm it might even have just been a conversation in here!
07:07:05 <tathi> :)
07:07:33 <tathi> That could be...I remember him talking about microcode in here one time...
07:07:38 <tathi> No idea when though :(
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07:26:24 <ASau> Good evening, crc!
07:26:42 <ASau> http://asau.hotbox.ru/c-forth-quick-hack.tgz
07:30:08 <crc> Good morning ASau
07:30:09 <crc> Cool
07:31:07 <ASau> I built it on my Slackware 9.1.
07:31:21 <ASau> I don't remember versions of flex etc.
07:31:49 <ASau> There're several bugs:
07:32:22 <ASau> 1.  D+  works with reverse order of most and less significant parts.
07:32:32 <ASau> 2. No ( word.
07:33:24 <ASau> I'd to cut definition of ( off.
07:34:04 <ASau> Need to figure out what is wrong in 'nf' source.
07:34:10 <crc> I'll try it when I boot Linux up again
07:34:26 * crc has been mostly focusing on RetroForth 7.0
07:36:32 <crc> RetroForth no longer needs mprotect :-)
07:37:57 <I440r_> you dont use mprotect ?
07:38:04 <crc> Not anymore
07:38:09 <I440r_> does it keep code and data separate ?
07:38:18 <crc> Yes
07:38:22 <I440r_> thats why :)
07:38:44 <crc> RetroForth 7.0 is the first version to work without mprotect though
07:39:03 <crc> I would have continued using mprotect, but BeOS does not have it :-(
07:41:48 <ASau> Actually, I don't understand why you used mprotect.
07:41:59 <ASau> I do this with  .section
07:42:08 <crc> Originally I used just one segment for data+code
07:42:20 <crc> mprotect was needed to make it writeable
07:44:54 <crc> I've also moved the Windows port into a separate source tree
07:45:25 <ASau> I can't find source, but I'm sure I did this with section attributes.
07:46:42 <crc> In RF7, code = readable, data = readable & writeable
07:46:54 <crc> BeOS doesn't like code segments to be writeable
07:47:21 <ASau> That's bad.
07:48:27 <crc> Why?
07:48:51 <ASau> That means one can't create CODEd words.
07:49:23 <crc> Sure you can. You can execute code in the data section
07:50:48 <ASau> Hm.
07:51:09 <ASau> Then why don't use data section as rwx code?
07:51:38 <I440r_> i make all of isforths space +rwx
07:52:07 <crc> Code is rx, data is rwx in RF7
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07:53:59 <ASau> I don't understand how BeOS goes.
07:54:19 <ASau> Does it require presense of code section with rx?
07:54:37 <crc> It doesn't follow the section attributes properly
07:55:12 <crc> I can create a memory area that's RWX, then copy the entire kernel there and run from that, but it's a pain
07:55:26 <crc> So I split it into code (rx) and data (rwx) sections
07:55:48 <ASau> Additional loader?
07:56:23 <crc> Yes, written in C++ :-(
07:56:48 <crc> The split into code+data means that RetroForth can _almost_ run under BeOS
07:57:37 <crc> (The GCC compiler is hanging when I try to link against libbe.so & libroot.so)
08:25:43 <crc> Well, I have to go
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08:57:34 <Robert> I440r_: There?
08:57:35 <Robert> : rand          ( --- )
08:57:35 <Robert>   time@ tv @ !> seed ;
08:57:42 <Robert> That's not really right
08:58:01 <I440r_> heh why not ?
08:58:48 <I440r_> it sets the random seed to the current time. thats where time is defined as the number of seconds since the epoc
09:00:38 <Robert> Uhm.
09:00:45 <Robert> But that returns a number
09:00:51 <Robert> Which is NOT what the stack comment says
09:01:03 <Robert> How is it supposed to be?
09:01:09 <I440r_> what returns a number
09:01:12 <I440r_> rand ?
09:01:14 <Robert> rand
09:01:15 * I440r_ looks
09:01:21 <I440r_> its not supposed to
09:01:54 <I440r_> oopts
09:02:02 <I440r_> : rand ( -- ) time @ !> seed
09:02:03 <Robert> time@ and tv @ <-- same thing, isn't it?
09:02:03 <I440r_> ;
09:02:06 <Robert> Hehe
09:02:07 <Robert> Yeah
09:02:10 <Robert> That's what I thought
09:02:21 <I440r_> go find more bugs
09:02:28 <I440r_> :)
09:02:41 <Robert> Don't worry :P
09:02:46 <I440r_> erm time@ !> seed i mean
09:03:04 <I440r_> i think originally time@ didnt do the tv @ 
09:04:46 <I440r_> theres another bug in there
09:04:52 <I440r_> time@ is wrong too
09:05:07 <I440r_> do this
09:05:13 <I440r_> 1 time@
09:05:33 <I440r_> argh no thats not doing it
09:05:37 <I440r_> wait
09:06:53 <I440r_> ah no. its right, its just a lil confuzing :)
09:07:07 <I440r_> why is tz headerless but tv isnt  hrm
09:07:42 <I440r_> the drop in time@ was confuzing me is all
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09:09:00 <Robert> :)
09:10:00 <Robert> 0 var rseed  ok
09:10:01 <Robert> : random rseed rnd dup !> rseed ;  ok
09:10:01 <Robert> random . Floating point exception
09:10:04 <Robert> Hrm, why is that=
09:10:04 <Robert> ?
09:38:25 <qFox> I440r> btw i think there's a small error in the bootpart of ciforth
09:38:38 <qFox> the intro message seems to have some variables that are displayed by name, rather then value
09:39:15 <qFox> 80386 ciforth beta $RCSfile 
09:39:15 <qFox> etc
09:43:41 <Robert> I440r_: Give me some hints on using your random nr generator
09:43:45 <Robert> : random rseed rnd  dup !> rseed ;  ok
09:43:52 <Robert> That did NOT work out well
09:44:09 <Robert> The "random number" keeps shrinking all the time :D
09:44:21 <Robert> Maybe reading from /dev/urandom is a better idea
09:49:08 <qFox> oh wait. isforth. ciforth. gah
09:49:15 <tathi> :)
09:51:33 <arke> http://www.windowsfordevices.com/news/NS4888711102.html
09:51:38 <arke> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
09:51:54 <arke> http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/06/28/1317249&mode=thread&tid=109&tid=126&tid=156&tid=187
09:52:46 <qFox> omgooooooose
09:57:13 <arke> seriously
09:57:23 <arke> threes been soooo much OSSing this last like month
09:57:51 <arke> part of WinCE, Java3D, Solaris and JavaRE soon to follow
09:58:02 <arke> RealPlater possibly too
09:58:29 <I440r_> robert lol
09:58:43 <I440r_> 10 rnd will return a random number from 0 to 9 or something :P
09:59:33 <Robert> Oooh
09:59:49 <Robert> I'm stupid. Thanks :D
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11:46:01 <slava> hey
12:16:27 <Herkamire> ola
12:41:29 <SolarFire> howdy folks
12:41:43 <SolarFire> good news today
12:41:53 <kc5tja> Greetings.
12:42:17 <SolarFire> pigbay is not a legal vacuum anymore
12:42:50 <kc5tja> ?
12:43:56 <SolarFire> pigbay a nick for guantanamo
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12:49:16 <slava> hey I440r_ 
12:50:20 <I440r_> hi
12:50:23 <I440r_> whussup ?
12:53:16 <slava> ok i started adding some i/o code to my interpreter, and i'm trying to make it print hello world -- here is the output
12:53:17 <slava> eHll oowlr.d
12:53:24 <slava> looks like somebody got the byte order wrong :-P
12:54:51 <Robert> :D
12:55:09 <kc5tja> slava: Hahah :D
12:55:09 <Herkamire> Hello, World!
12:57:46 <I440r_> lol
12:57:57 <I440r_> well i gotta reboot. stupid windows install doesnt give me the option NOT to 
12:57:59 <I440r_> brb :)
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13:02:32 <kc5tja> Well, I have to get ready for aikido later today.
13:02:47 <kc5tja> The ONE day in . . . months that I've gone, and the one day in . . . months that I'll ever GET to go again... >:/
13:06:44 <fridge> have fun!
13:07:22 <fridge> I'm doing FMA currently, due to an inability to find any aikido places that suit my schedule
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13:09:46 <YaroslavVB> why would someone want to use Forth nowdays?
13:10:12 <Herkamire> because we like it =)
13:10:38 <Robert> Hehe.
13:10:44 <slava> or because it insipires us to make new languages :)
13:10:45 <Herkamire> my goal is to make a programming environment that's radically more productive
13:11:22 <fridge> YaroslavVB, you could ask the same of assembler and C programmers, it has it's place
13:11:32 <Herkamire> what I have now is preferable to me, and more productive for somethings, although the scope of things it's good for is still small
13:11:47 <YaroslavVB> fridge: where?
13:11:55 <wossname> terminator 2 used forth ;D
13:11:57 <Herkamire> C has a good reason
13:12:02 <wossname> that blob effect? that was forth, baby
13:12:13 <Herkamire> it's what the systems are programmed it.
13:12:18 <Herkamire> s/it/in/
13:12:20 <wossname> you got a tiny computer chip that won't fit nothing else? there's your forth, ready to fit in
13:12:22 <slava> Hello world. <=== it works :) :) :)
13:12:37 <fridge> YaroslavVB, in space ships?
13:12:37 <Herkamire> slava: yay :) now make it print "Hello, World!"
13:13:01 <Herkamire> forth makes possible very good factoring
13:13:11 <wossname> yeah, space ships. they gotta run old 386s
13:13:32 <wossname> solar radiation fucks up any newer chips due to small sizes, it's not worth dealing with relatively untested new chips
13:13:33 <YaroslavVB> So worth is like a macro-assembly language?
13:13:47 <YaroslavVB> forth
13:14:28 <slava> its much more than that
13:14:49 <slava> you can write an assembler in forth though
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13:15:53 <slava> hi I440r_ 
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13:39:52 --- nick: randolm -> wossname
13:41:54 <qFox> whats the meaning of "screen" in the forth-context?
13:42:07 <slava> a block containing source
13:42:11 <I440r_> usually block
13:42:23 <qFox> and a block is a part of a file right?
13:42:32 <qFox> data from the harddrive..
13:43:02 <I440r_> a block is usually a sector
13:43:27 <qFox> okay
13:53:34 <jc> I thought a block was 2 sectors.  A sector is 512 bytes, a typical screen was 64 x 16 (1024)
13:53:57 <jc> 4 seconds for an 80 x 24 screen
13:54:00 <jc> er, sectors
13:54:51 <I440r_> right
13:54:54 <I440r_> my bad
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13:57:26 <ASau> Dobryjj vecher!
13:57:30 <slava> yo
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14:45:05 <qFox> hmmm, i'm thinking of stripping ciforth to try and get a MISC set, and starting from there
14:45:49 <qFox> because i'm lacking the knowledge to build a bootable misc forth system in x86 asm myself
14:46:22 <ASau> Rp.:
14:46:30 <ASau> 1. FIG Forth v. 1.0
14:46:45 <ASau> 2.  FreeDOS format.
14:46:50 <ASau> 3. FD.
14:47:00 <qFox> rp?
14:47:00 <ASau> Format FD.
14:47:16 <ASau> Receipe, "take."
14:47:47 * qFox wonders what this all means..
14:47:51 <ASau> Change FIG Forth source to be ORG 0.
14:48:09 <ASau> Make COM file.
14:48:25 <ASau> Copy it to FD and name KERNEL.EXE
14:48:40 <ASau> D.S. "My Forth OS."
14:48:43 <qFox> ah right. but that's still beyond my capabilities unfortunatly
14:49:02 <ASau> Stop.
14:49:21 <ASau> You have to change KEY EMIT ?TERMINAL words to call BIOS.
14:49:36 <ASau> But that's all.
14:50:08 <ASau> You can also take Open/DR DOS formatter and name your file IBMBIO.COM
14:51:50 <ASau> Believe me, it's very easy.
14:52:00 <qFox> yes, once you've done it...
14:53:57 <ASau> Do it.
14:54:16 <ASau> Well.
14:54:47 <ASau> Actually, you can start from any DOS program, that works through BIOS only.
14:55:04 <jc> Um, if you make it a .COM file and name it .EXE, the DOS loader isn't supposed to load it because the 'MZ' signature is missing in the first 2 bytes.
14:55:13 <ASau> Just make plain binary file relocated to 0, not 400Q
14:55:30 <ASau> jc, you're wrong.
14:56:49 <jc> I expect you're intending to clarify your answer.
14:56:51 <ASau> Take a look at COMMAND.COM for MS DOS 7.
14:57:11 <ASau> Well.
14:57:47 <jc> He can replace COMMAND.COM with that image, but I don't think he can replace KERNEL.EXE.
14:58:16 <ASau> You need to check what your selected loader (FreeDOS or DR DOS) expect from kernel.
14:58:43 <ASau> DR DOS, OpenDOS expect it to be plain binary file, relocated to 0.
14:59:06 <ASau> I can't recall, what FreeDOS loader does.
14:59:36 <ASau> But it takes very little to check, if you have FreeDOS handy.
15:00:19 <qFox> ASau> i am not sure what package to download. fig forth 1.0 is rather vague
15:01:15 <jc> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/1998-December/014949.html
15:01:19 <ASau> Find file figforth8088.zip or something like this at Taygeta.
15:01:27 <jc> Use the information in this article to hunt down the thread they're talking about.
15:02:57 <jc> http://groups.google.com/groups?q=forth+bootable+dos+group:comp.lang.forth&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&selm=GE04wz.62G.1.spenarn%40spenarnc.xs4all.nl&rnum=2
15:03:09 <jc> ciforth can apparently do this, from what I surmise.
15:03:46 <qFox> yes but ciforth is already too. as i mentioned before i was thinking about stripping it down to a misc set
15:03:57 <qFox> and building it back up again
15:04:30 <ASau> Hm.
15:04:39 <qFox> gah. the ftp is a goner
15:04:40 <ASau> I can find my version.
15:05:03 <qFox> or actually, the ftp does no longer allow anon
15:05:18 <qFox> (forth.org anyways)
15:07:30 <qFox> lol
15:07:43 <qFox> i found the link in a #forth chan log by google :p
15:07:48 <qFox> 00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.03.21 00:34:41 <arke> kc5tja ...
15:07:48 <qFox> ... a href="ftp://ftp.taygeta.com/pub/Forth/Compilers/native/dos/">ftp://ftp.taygeta.com/pub/Forth/Compilers/native/dos/</a>
15:07:48 <qFox> 18:52:12 <ASau> figforth8088.zip 18:52 ... 
15:08:01 <ASau> ftp://asau.hotbox.ru/fig.zip
15:08:17 <ASau> Sorry.
15:08:22 <ASau> Wait a minute
15:08:38 <qFox> the file is present on that ftp... 
15:08:58 <ASau> ??
15:09:31 <ASau> Hm.
15:09:37 <qFox> ftp://ftp.taygeta.com/pub/Forth/Compilers/native/dos/
15:09:55 <ASau> Can you download from hotbox.ru?
15:09:55 <qFox> lol i already had it :p
15:10:05 <qFox> i think so?
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15:10:13 <qFox> oh. nope
15:10:25 <qFox> no anon access
15:11:02 <qFox> is there no http equivalent link?
15:11:13 <ASau> Sorry, s/ftp/http/
15:11:16 <qFox> ah
15:11:31 <qFox> hehe yeah works
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15:15:49 <ASau> Good evening, Topaz.
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15:26:27 <ASau> Good evening, topher.
15:26:33 <topher> hey ASau
15:27:09 <Topaz> hi
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15:43:08 <slava> hi doublec 
15:43:17 <doublec> hi slava
15:43:37 <doublec> slava, i see in the logs you have output working on the C vm. good stuff!
15:44:10 <slava> doublec: yup -- i can cross compile an image containing parts of the namespaces, streams and stdio vocabularies, and execute "Hello world" print :-)
15:45:53 <doublec> slava: That is very cool.
15:46:33 <slava> doublec: also regrading the stack mailing lists, i'd rather write my own gc. it will be more efficient than using a 3rd party lib and i think i can get it done in about 300 lines of C code.
15:46:53 <slava> doublec: because of my heap layout -- tagged pointers, headerless objects and such -- i don't think boehm will work
15:47:38 <doublec> slava, sounds good. Plus writing your own doesn't tie you to the portability requirements of a third party library.
15:47:47 <doublec> boehm doesn't work on my cellphone for example
15:48:06 <doublec> How does this look for 'html in factor':
15:48:13 <slava> so far the only really non-standard environmental dependency i have is that functions must be compiled on 8-byte boundaries
15:48:14 <doublec>       <form method= "post" action= rot form> [
15:48:14 <doublec>         "Name: " write
15:48:14 <doublec>         <input type= "text" name= "name" size= "20" input/>
15:48:14 <doublec>         <input type= "submit" value= "Ok" input/>
15:48:14 <doublec>       ] </form>
15:48:28 <slava> how the hell does that work?
15:48:43 <doublec> slava, do you think it's 'too cute' to be useable?
15:48:53 <slava> it might be feasable
15:48:54 <qFox> oh not that xml stuff again
15:49:00 <slava> what is the implementation of type= ?
15:49:04 <doublec> hehe, qfox, yep
15:49:08 <qFox> it looks so evil
15:49:11 <qFox> every time i see it
15:50:21 <slava> doublec: can i see the code?
15:50:30 <doublec> the each 'xxxx=' word sets the last attribute done via a 'xxx=' word and then pushes it's name on the stack for the next 'xxxx=' word to process. Or for the form> word to do it.
15:50:39 <doublec> slava, yup. I'll email it. 
15:50:44 <slava> doublec: also will it work if some of the tag names, attribute names or values are programmically determined?
15:50:51 <doublec> slava, yes.
15:50:59 <slava> doublec: well its a neat idea, i'll admit ;)
15:51:24 <doublec> slava, the downside is that the items are below the 'tag' on the stack so you need to use rot or 2dip to get at it. I'm debating what to do about that.
15:51:40 <slava> doublec: what if you store these items in the namespace instead?
15:51:47 <doublec> slava, I did it mainly to see if it was possible. Not sure if I'd use it in the real world.
15:51:50 <slava> doublec: also why have </form> and not just </> that is a generic tag outputter?
15:52:26 <doublec> slava, I thought </form> looked more html'ish but that's the only reason. All the </xxx> words have the same implementation (rather they all forward to another word).
15:52:50 <slava> : foo bar ; is bad design
15:52:52 <slava> IMHO
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15:53:53 <doublec> slava, yep. You'll see lots of bad design to get what I'm doing to work :)
15:54:15 <doublec> slava, which is why I'm not sure I like it. It looks good though.
15:54:25 <slava> doublec: also directly embedding html won't let you test your web app in another style stream such as the listener. i'm not sure if this is a goal for you or not.
15:55:17 <doublec> slava, it should be a goal for me. I'm basically trying lots of different ideas to settle on one. Or maybe to provide lots of different options and let the user decide.
15:56:02 <doublec> slava, code is in the mail
15:58:44 <slava> got it
15:58:46 <slava> some comments
15:59:01 <slava> regrading this:
15:59:02 <slava> : input/>  ( <tag> attr? -- ) attribute-assign [ ] write-tag ;
15:59:08 <slava> why not just : />  ( <tag> attr? -- ) attribute-assign [ ] write-tag ;
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15:59:45 <slava> doublec: also you can dynamically define words instead of repeating them for each html tag.
15:59:49 <jDoctor> doublec: so have you made a site that uses this power where you embed factor with the html?
16:00:10 <doublec> No reason, apart from being consistent with the tags that close with a 'form>' for example (ie. they have a </form> somewhere else)
16:00:26 <slava> doublec: well /> will work with any tag not just input right?
16:00:28 <doublec> slava, how do I dynamically define words? I was curious about that (you'll see my macro comment)
16:00:42 <slava> doublec: its a bit messy and the api might change -- but you use these two words:
16:00:44 <doublec> slava, yes
16:00:50 <slava> define ( vocab name def -- )
16:00:52 <doublec> jDoctor, not yet.
16:01:14 <slava> <compound> ( word def -- worddef )
16:01:33 <doublec> slava, of course! I didn't think about using those low level words directly.
16:01:37 <slava> oh and this
16:01:41 <slava> create ( vocab name -- word )
16:01:46 <slava> so something like:
16:02:03 <slava> "html-cont" "<a>" 2dup create [ 2 2 + ] <compound> define
16:02:09 <slava> that will work.
16:02:18 <doublec> slava, cool thanks.
16:02:18 <slava> factor accordingly
16:02:27 <slava> maybe a word like this is needed:
16:02:35 <slava> define-compound ( vocab name def -- )
16:02:43 <doublec> yes
16:03:10 <slava> : define-compound ( vocab name def -- )
16:03:10 <slava>     >r 2dup create r> <compound> define ;
16:03:38 <slava> in fact this is needed since the C vm uses a simpler mechanism to define words internally. there are no separate 'worddef' objects
16:04:16 <doublec> The 'html in factor' code would make writing .lhtml files very jsp like.
16:04:44 <slava> the reason the extension is .lhtml is that factor used to be called LSD
16:04:45 <I440r_> why do [ 2 2 +] why not just do [ 4 ] ?
16:04:51 <slava> I440r_: it was an example
16:04:55 <I440r_> ok hehe
16:05:14 <slava> I440r_: you don't really want <a> to push 4 on the stack, and if you did, why would you a) create the word dynamically b) name it <a> :-)
16:05:29 <doublec> style question: I have code that does stuff like dup [ do-something ] [ drop ] ifte
16:05:34 <I440r_> :)
16:05:41 <slava> doublec: [ do-something ] when*
16:05:43 <doublec> Is there an idiom for that? I want to do something if it is not false else ignore it
16:05:47 <doublec> ahh, thanks
16:06:50 <slava> also instead of writing [ call ] dip, use >r call r> its simpler
16:07:52 <slava> oh wait
16:07:57 <slava> in fact swap [ call ] dip is equivalent to dip
16:09:46 <slava> doublec: wait, there's more
16:09:52 <slava> instead of using unit append, use add
16:09:56 <slava> instead of using swap cons, use swons
16:10:09 <doublec> hehe, thanks! My Factor newbie status shows.
16:10:23 <slava> wait there's more
16:10:32 <doublec> a free set of steak knives?
16:10:33 <slava> "foo" get add "foo" set ==> "foo" add@
16:10:43 <slava> there's also append@ but you don't need it here
16:11:15 <slava> doublec: is the 'attrs' value of a <tag> an alist?
16:11:15 <doublec> I'll be putting the code in a darcs repository soon so others can download and hack at it.
16:11:21 <doublec> slava, yes
16:11:34 <slava> doublec: why not sture the attr value in the namespace directly
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16:12:12 <doublec> slava, There will a number of different attributes so I store the alist of them in the namespace.
16:12:29 <slava> doublec: but why not just set the attributes as variables in the namespace?
16:12:33 <qFox> "To install ciforth on a hard disk system:"
16:12:35 <qFox> lol :p
16:12:51 <doublec> slava, So I can distinguish between the attributes and the other stuff in the namespace (like closed? and tag)
16:12:55 <slava> oh
16:13:25 <slava> why not make attrs itself a namespace then?
16:13:32 <slava> then you can do this:
16:13:47 <slava> "attrs" get [ set ] bind
16:13:55 <slava> instead of swap cons unit "attrs" get swap append "attrs" set
16:14:00 <doublec> I thought about that but thought an alist was lighter weight. I saw you used alists in the httpd code somewhere (post variables?) so used that as an example.
16:14:27 <slava> well if you use 'append' with an alist its definately not lighter
16:14:31 <slava> append copies the first list remember
16:14:42 <doublec> In hindsite namespaces would have been easier. Can I iterate over the values in a namespace? for example, here's how I convert an alist to the attribute string in html
16:14:51 <doublec>   <% [ dup car % "='" % cdr % "' " % ] each %> ;
16:14:58 <doublec> true
16:15:10 <slava> well to iterate thru a namesapce you turn it into an alist first :)
16:15:23 <doublec> Is there a namespace>alist?
16:15:28 <slava> values ( -- alist )
16:15:36 <I440r_> err wtf are you guys talking about lol
16:15:37 <slava> : namespace>alist [ values ] bind ;
16:15:37 <doublec> ahh, thanks. I'll convet to namespace then
16:15:52 <I440r_> which forth ?
16:15:57 <doublec> This is all good stuff, thanks slava.
16:16:00 <slava> I440r_: factor ain't no forth :)
16:16:05 <I440r_> its not ?
16:16:08 <I440r_> lol
16:16:12 <slava> well the syntax is similar.
16:16:16 <I440r_> is it close ?
16:16:21 <slava> the main diff is that intead of immedaite words, we have code blocks
16:16:24 <slava> in forth, you guys write:
16:16:26 <slava> IF ... THEN
16:16:30 <slava> in factor we write [ ... ] when
16:16:32 <slava> and when is a normal word
16:16:40 <slava> it takes a code block from the stack [ ... ] and executes it if the condition is true
16:16:42 <slava> same for loops
16:16:48 <slava> 10 [ "Hello!" print ] times
16:16:51 <slava> prints hello 10 times
16:17:08 <I440r_> aha. whose baby is that?
16:17:10 <I440r_> yours ?
16:17:11 <slava> mine
16:17:14 <I440r_> cool :)
16:17:19 <slava> its what i'm porting to C at the moment
16:17:31 <slava> from java :-P
16:17:33 <I440r_> unconventional.... but thats the way forth is supposed to be hehe
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16:17:44 <hobo45> anyone want to talk about a cool idea/dream i had last nite
16:18:07 <I440r_> best ideas come in dreams
16:18:11 <I440r_> like the sewing machine!
16:18:12 <hobo45> okay cool
16:18:17 <hobo45> well here it goes
16:18:27 <slava> doublec: ping
16:18:29 <slava> doublec: wait there's more
16:18:32 <hobo45> you want to represent a given string
16:18:38 <hobo45> but you dont want to give it as a literal
16:18:46 <hobo45> you and i both have a shared data set
16:18:48 <slava> doublec: <namespace> dup >r [ ... ] bind r> ===> <namespace> [ ... ] extend
16:19:08 --- nick: default_ -> blockhea
16:19:08 <hobo45> so we give indices into the data set, and transformations to do so that you can generate the string i want to represent
16:19:20 <doublec> slava, ok, thanks
16:19:32 <I440r_> why shared ?
16:19:32 <doublec> slava, I can feel some refactoring coming in my code tonight :)
16:19:58 <slava> doublec: if you make the little factorings i suggested, and add dynamic creation of the tag words, it will be like 1/3 as long :-)
16:20:08 <doublec> slava, yep. and more readable too.
16:20:23 <hobo45> well shared because its shit
16:20:29 <hobo45> to have to give it as a literal
16:20:57 <doublec> slava, <namespace> [ [ ...store-cc... ] callcc0 ] bind
16:21:06 <doublec> slava, If I resume that cc will the namespace still be there?
16:21:48 <slava> doublec: yes.
16:21:49 <qFox> godfuckingdamnit why is it so hard to view postscript under windows
16:21:53 <doublec> cool
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16:22:00 <slava> doublec: the namestack is part of a continuation
16:22:10 <slava> doublec: however if the namespaces changed and you restore the cc, the old values are not restored
16:22:20 <slava> doublec: just like if you have mutable data on the stack that you change etc
16:22:33 <hobo45> qfox use ghostview
16:22:40 <doublec> ok
16:22:43 <qFox> i am. it's whining about some dll
16:22:53 <qFox> then it asks me to download this dll
16:22:56 <hobo45> what dll?  i have a lot of them
16:22:58 <doublec> slava, when you say 'changed' do you mean setting values in it? They will be lost?
16:23:02 <qFox> i say yes, i get some lame popup, and nothing happens.
16:23:34 <slava> doublec: let me give an example
16:23:34 <qFox> "ghostscript cnanot be found on your computer. you will need to download and install afpl ghostscript from..."
16:23:37 <qFox> http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~ghost/
16:23:43 <qFox> download now, cancel, help.
16:23:44 <slava> doublec: suppose you do this: [ [ store-cc ] callcc0 ] bind
16:23:51 <slava> doublec: then you change some values in that namespace
16:23:55 <slava> doublec: then you restore the continuation
16:24:00 <slava> doublec: the new values will still be there
16:24:01 <qFox> why the fuck does ghostview not install ghostscript? is it just me or 
16:24:09 <hobo45> you need ghostscript
16:24:14 <qFox> (this is a fresh install of ghostview btw)
16:24:15 <hobo45> its the interepretererrr for postscript
16:24:23 <hobo45> you first install gs, then gsview
16:24:31 <qFox> ehr
16:24:39 <hobo45> yea its drainbamaged
16:24:55 <slava> postscript is a concatenative language similar to forth in some ways
16:25:01 <qFox> whats so awesome about ps thats worth all this trouble? :(
16:25:15 <doublec> ok, thanks slava
16:25:19 <qFox> it better not be as "great" as pdf
16:25:26 <hobo45> well for one its a wicked way to run code on your friends computer without him knowing
16:25:41 <slava> doublec: in the C vm, namespaces are just vectors of alists btw
16:25:50 <slava> doublec: with hashing to find the right alist to search in
16:25:51 <hobo45> just send him a .ps file and the gs interpreter will let you do ALL sorts of neat things, and its also a great way to send your thesis around town!
16:26:01 <hobo45> like open files, del his windows dlls
16:26:04 <slava> hobo45: most ps interpreters have a 'safe' mode.
16:26:04 <hobo45> etc ad nauseum
16:26:10 <hobo45> and most of them suck slava!
16:26:18 <slava> most of them suck me?
16:26:23 <qFox> hobo45> yeah, great, useless, ...
16:26:37 <qFox> "please install this program so i can exploit your system"
16:26:52 <hobo45> pretty much qFox you cunt!
16:27:10 <I440r_> im thinking hobo is here just to annoy
16:27:16 <qFox> well. i'm about to see the great magnificent world of ps! i cant wait :\
16:27:30 <qFox> i dont think i've ever seen him speak before
16:27:42 <qFox> no matter
16:28:04 <I440r_> wish kc5 was here :)
16:28:14 <I440r_> neway i gotta go home.. ill be back soon
16:28:17 <hobo45> i never ever speaked before
16:28:17 <qFox> wish you would just kill yourself
16:28:30 <qFox> on freenode anyways ;)
16:28:37 <hobo45> qFox ;)
16:28:48 <hobo45> be sure to check out to make sure that the gs you're using is not exploitable
16:28:48 <qFox> "omg it works"
16:28:54 <qFox> "omg its fucking pdf shit"
16:29:05 <qFox> its the manual to ciforth, i'll let it slide
16:29:13 <hobo45> these days nearly everything is exploitable
16:29:14 <I440r_> which is based on forth but dont tell the authors that :)
16:29:37 <hobo45> and everything is based on pdf... i think pdf4 or pdf5 (writer) comes with a ps=>pdf autoconverter on ps load.
16:29:37 <qFox> how is this thing friendly to use >:(
16:29:40 <blockhea> I440r_: what is based on forht ... postscript?
16:29:46 <hobo45> its shit qFox
16:29:49 <I440r_> yes
16:29:52 <qFox> at least the pdf viewer allows you to drag the pages
16:29:58 * qFox rants on
16:30:02 <wossname> hp printers use ps ?? :(
16:30:12 <I440r_> yes
16:30:16 <I440r_> brb
16:30:21 <blockhea> feh:  I still make my documentation as text files  :D
16:30:29 <qFox> dito
16:30:33 <qFox> man this sux
16:30:40 <qFox> perhaps i can export it
16:30:41 <wossname> i prefer ps to pdf, but fuck yeah .txt 4ever
16:30:45 <hobo45> blockhea because were still in 1965!
16:30:47 <ASau> I440r, not all of them.
16:31:07 <hobo45> txt is not really txt, its ascii.  what about the poor asians?
16:31:09 <wossname> actually, what's wrong with html? that's pretty portable! :~
16:31:11 <blockhea> becasue txt file can be read anywhere, is small, has no viruses  :D
16:31:16 <wossname> fuck the slanteyes
16:31:17 <slava> hobo45: they can learn english
16:31:23 --- quit: blockhead (No route to host)
16:31:25 <hobo45> html can exploit your sistem
16:31:30 <wossname> bullshit
16:31:31 <blockhea> they have, actually
16:31:31 <slava> if you use IE
16:31:37 <hobo45> never heard of txt exploits
16:31:38 <wossname> it's a formatting spec
16:31:38 <qFox> html should not be able to 
16:31:44 <blockhea> pretyy much the whole planet speaks english, if only as a second or thrid language
16:31:49 <hobo45> HTML CAN HACK YOUR PLANET
16:31:50 <qFox> i think you're confused with javascript
16:32:00 <blockhea> I stumbled onto an italian irc chanell once (logn story).
16:32:01 <qFox> plain html is only text format
16:32:05 <blockhea> they were frinedly and spoke english while I was there.
16:32:05 <hobo45> well if you load html from just anywhere you can be HACKED
16:32:14 <slava> hobo45: hack me
16:32:16 <slava> i dare you
16:32:20 <hobo45> then you will lose your house, and be like me
16:32:27 <hobo45> a FUCKING HOBO, 45 yo at that!
16:32:28 <qFox> too easy...
16:32:34 * blockhea sings "hack me" to the tune of a certain nirvana tune
16:32:34 <qFox> but anyways
16:32:52 <qFox> wtf are EPS and EPI files
16:32:57 <slava> postscript
16:33:02 <slava> eps is ps + header
16:33:05 <qFox> so... the same, only even harder to view?
16:33:16 <ASau> No.
16:33:25 --- nick: blockhea -> blockhead
16:33:26 <slava> qFox: works in the same viewer
16:33:31 <hobo45> ENCAPSOUTLATED PS
16:33:34 <slava> and PS is easy to view
16:33:35 <wossname> internet
16:33:38 <slava> gv foo.ps
16:33:44 <slava> and if gv is not found, portinstall gv
16:33:51 <slava> if you use an os without ports, well then your os sucks :)
16:33:53 <wossname> hay guys whos up for a round of irc
16:34:03 <qFox> you think? viewing a 128 pages page by page is not easy viewing imo
16:34:09 <qFox> i prefer pdf over this viewer
16:34:20 <slava> qFox: it doesn't have a 'go to page'?
16:34:21 <slava> then your viewer sucks
16:34:27 <hobo45> hey mark
16:34:28 <qFox> yes, but that is still page by page sir
16:34:34 <hobo45> mark, show me a pic of your guns
16:34:35 <qFox> cant drag up/down
16:34:36 <slava> qFox: how is pdf different?
16:34:42 <qFox> pdf allows you to scroll :\
16:34:44 <slava> qFox: you can in a decemt viewer
16:34:49 <slava> qFox: its not a property of the file format
16:34:50 <qFox> show me one
16:34:54 <qFox> all i get is ghostview
16:34:59 <slava> ghostview is crap
16:35:04 <qFox> no, really?
16:35:04 <slava> get ggv or gv or kghostview
16:35:14 <qFox> windows?
16:35:17 <slava> oh i'm sorry
16:35:22 <qFox> right
16:35:24 <slava> get cygwin/x11
16:35:36 <slava> why do you use windows?
16:35:39 <hobo45> CYGWIN
16:35:42 <hobo45> BLAH HAHAHAHA
16:35:45 <qFox> lets not get into that.
16:36:05 <qFox> (find it in the chan logs if you really care ;)
16:37:05 <hobo45> windows is the premiere choice
16:38:04 * blockhead puts on his asbestos suit and descends into his bomb shelter
16:38:56 <qFox> some things just ought to be banned from existence :\
16:39:27 <hobo45> tell me about chuck moore
16:39:27 <qFox> war, hunger, postscript, bush
16:39:49 <qFox> so um, no.
16:40:01 <wossname> chuck moore is overweight
16:40:05 <wossname> he is nearly blind
16:40:14 <slava> maybe he should factor himself a bit more?
16:40:15 <hobo45> doesnt seem overweight to me
16:40:22 <wossname> ha, slava :p
16:40:23 <hobo45> maybe a couple of extra pounds
16:40:28 <blockhead> slava: lol
16:40:36 <hobo45> so he is an old geezer
16:40:40 <qFox> cygwin installer... connecting................
16:40:41 <qFox> nice
16:40:42 <hobo45> but what about his IDEAS you racists
16:40:48 <wossname> chuck moore is black
16:40:55 <slava> he thinks everybody should write their own * and / words
16:41:25 --- quit: tathi ("leaving")
16:41:54 <blockhead> slava: the * an d/ words were amoung the hardest to write  (for me, anyway)
16:42:05 <slava> doesn't your cpu do * :-)
16:42:22 <slava> or are you targeting 6502?
16:42:26 <qFox> d/ i can understand, but * ?
16:42:35 <blockhead> yeah, but its a pain in the ass
16:42:38 <slava> maybe blockhead meant */ ?
16:42:39 <hobo45> you use colorforth
16:42:47 <slava> blockhead: why was it a pain? my * is a one-liner :)
16:42:51 <blockhead> I did it in assembler
16:43:01 <slava> yes but if your cpu has a multiply instruction
16:43:03 <hobo45> its best to MACHINE the * and /
16:43:05 <hobo45> stupids
16:43:07 <qFox> say, mr hobo45 sir, you are about 5 lines away from ignore me thinks...
16:43:08 <hobo45> speed kills
16:43:26 <qFox> dont pm me
16:43:36 <hobo45> i have to go
16:43:37 <hobo45> bye
16:43:40 --- part: hobo45 left #forth
16:44:07 <qFox> [01:09:13] * hobo45 (~hobo45@CPE0000216c7d82-CM014090207170.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has joined #ai
16:44:07 <qFox> [01:09:21] <hobo45> imagine if we had really good AI
16:44:07 <qFox> [01:10:16] <hobo45> ive got a pocketful of nanos
16:44:15 <qFox> that was all he said, so...
16:44:24 <slava> he's there now?
16:44:30 <qFox> didnt leave
16:44:36 <slava> watch this
16:44:38 <slava> go to #ai
16:44:44 <qFox> i idle there...
16:45:43 <qFox> such ppl not worth time.
16:46:05 <I440r> who is he ?
16:46:18 <qFox> no idea
16:46:20 <I440r> and why did he come in here and make a nusance of himself ?
16:46:21 <I440r> heh
16:47:04 <qFox> he joined ai before he joined here though. likely whoised somebody
16:47:27 <qFox> i see slava found himself a personal copy of goatse ;)
16:47:43 <slava> qFox: its the standard link to give to annoying people in #java
16:47:44 <blockhead> going back to the topic  :) .... slava, this cpu has a multiply insturction but there is a a lot of setup beofre the multiply and then some "post-processing" after the multiply
16:47:50 <slava> blockhead: oh
16:47:52 <qFox> :)
16:47:52 <slava> blockhead: what cpu?
16:48:10 <blockhead> p4, treated as a 8086
16:48:20 <slava> uhh
16:48:22 <slava> why?
16:48:26 <qFox> oh yeah i know that multiplying machine forth word, sux. division is even suckier imo :)
16:48:56 <blockhead> division drove me nealy nuts
16:48:59 <wossname> no real program needs division
16:49:16 <qFox> btw how big is that cygwin thing? its only at 17% going at 200kbs :\
16:49:25 <blockhead> that one words is the reason I had to move the forth into the emulator ... I kept taking the whole machine down with every crash  :D
16:49:35 <qFox> heh
16:49:51 <slava> wossname: ...?!
16:49:57 <qFox> i never got around implementing the div instruction for the kestrel emu i was writing
16:51:26 <blockhead> qFox: I don't blame you  :D
16:51:33 <qFox> but anyways. i think it'll be quite easy to customize the ciforth. and since it does basicly have a good wordset, i think i'll go with customizing it to my own needs
16:51:43 <wossname> slava - when did you last need division?
16:51:57 <wossname> i'm not counting modulus here
16:52:04 <wossname> real men do modulus with AND
16:53:29 <slava> wossname: searching a 80,000 line code base i work on, 1000 occurrences of / :-)
16:53:33 <doublec> the ARM chip on the Symbian based cellphones doesn't have native division so division is very slow. You have to avoid it for writing games for example.
16:54:11 <qFox> write games without div?
16:54:13 <wossname> :o
16:54:16 <qFox> thats gotta be hard...
16:54:26 <wossname> a game is not a real program!
16:54:36 <wossname> they're imaginary ;_;
16:54:37 <slava> doublec: the next steps for the C VM is adding the growable string buffers, and once this is done a 'read line' function.
16:54:41 <qFox> lol
16:55:01 <slava> doublec: after that vocabulary search (which is trivial with wht alrady exists) and then everything needed for the outer interpreter will be in place.
16:55:06 <doublec> qFox, division is emulated by the Symbian os so you can use it. It's just slow.
16:55:13 <slava> doublec: and GC at some stage :-)
16:55:15 <slava> brb
16:55:20 <qFox> anyways. i needed the postscript thing to see whether the bootable ciforth would load an additional file or something
16:55:35 <doublec> slava, that's great! memory's cheap, who needs gc ;-)
16:55:46 <wossname> yeehaw
16:55:56 <wossname> ++allocptr for life
16:55:58 <qFox> i kinda need it to include a certain file as startup procedure, and this file can include other files as to boot up the system properly (eventually)
16:56:04 <slava> wossname: that's what i'm doing
16:56:14 <slava> wossname: the gc will just copy the dictionary to a new zone, ditching unreachable objects.
16:56:19 <wossname> hah!
16:56:22 <doublec> all we need is hot swappable memory modules
16:56:43 <qFox> hotswapable computers.
16:57:34 <slava> doublec: if one fills up with gc'able garbage, just pull it out
16:57:44 <doublec> yep :)
16:58:33 <slava> doublec: new jedit.org/factor/CFactor.zip
16:58:46 <slava> i'm going to eat dinner then seeing some friends, so i'll talk to y'all hooligans later
16:59:10 <blockhead> 'nn slava
16:59:21 <doublec> slava: thanks, getting it now.
16:59:26 <doublec> slava, cya
17:03:21 <slava> doublec: ps: grab the latest factor.jar too. check out the library/platform/native/ directory
17:05:40 <doublec> slava, ok will do
17:14:54 <doublec> slava, the latest Factor.jar appears to be broken:
17:15:05 <doublec>  $ java -cp Factor.jar factor.FactorInterpreter
17:15:06 <doublec> Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NullPointerException
17:15:06 <doublec>         at java.io.Reader.<init>(Reader.java:61)
17:15:06 <doublec>         at java.io.InputStreamReader.<init>(InputStreamReader.java:55)
17:15:06 <doublec>         at factor.FactorInterpreter.runBootstrap(FactorInterpreter.java:417)
17:15:06 <doublec>         at factor.FactorInterpreter.init(FactorInterpreter.java:175)
17:15:08 <doublec>         at factor.FactorInterpreter.main(FactorInterpreter.java:102)
17:20:04 --- join: LOOP-HOG (~jdamisch@63.105.22.119) joined #forth
17:20:16 <LOOP-HOG> hi
17:23:42 <blockhead> hey LOOP-HOG, wassup?  :)
17:24:59 <LOOP-HOG> hi
17:25:09 <LOOP-HOG> i have some news for you guys
17:25:33 <LOOP-HOG> http://www.memnonio.com/forth.html   
17:25:35 <LOOP-HOG> IS NOW
17:25:37 <LOOP-HOG> http://members.dsl-only.net/~damisch/forth.html
17:26:06 <LOOP-HOG> i decided that $10/month or $120/year was fat so i moved it to my ISP web space
17:26:07 * blockhead goes to look ...
17:27:57 * arke cleans his car
17:28:27 <LOOP-HOG> So, I strongly urge those who find memnonio to use useful to d/l a STYLE incase this location goes away some day too
17:29:22 <LOOP-HOG> so please change the header for #forth
17:29:34 <LOOP-HOG> also, I will go tell c.l.f for what its worth
17:34:30 * blockhead checks the moon phase
17:35:24 --- topic: set to 'FORTH programming language. Info: http://forth.bespin.org/resources/introduction ANSI: http://www.taygeta.com/forth/dpans.htm FIG83: http://forth.sourceforge.net/standard/fst83/ Links: http://members.dsl-only.net/~damisch/forth.html || :NOTICE: Kestrel project update!  See http://www.falvotech.com/weblog for more details. || Note: this chan is publicly logged.' by qFox
17:36:01 <arke> ;)
17:36:22 * blockhead makes a log in public  :D
17:36:27 <blockhead> ahhh, so refreshing
17:36:43 --- topic: set to 'FORTH programming language. Info: http://forth.bespin.org/resources/introduction ANSI: http://www.taygeta.com/forth/dpans.htm FIG83: http://forth.sourceforge.net/standard/fst83/ Links: http://members.dsl-only.net/~damisch/forth.html || Kestrel project weblog: http://www.falvotech.com/weblog || Note: this chan is publicly logged.' by qFox
17:37:10 <qFox> aum objected to the fact that it was not in the topic, he was quite surprised when he got google hits :p
17:38:08 <blockhead> qFox: too me awhile to realize it also, but hey, who cares?  not like me real name or anything is here
17:38:19 <qFox> omgomgomgomgomg cygwin is almost done!!!!!1
17:38:23 <blockhead> I could be gorage bush (jr) and you'de be none the wiser :D
17:38:27 <blockhead> george, rather
17:38:33 <arke> qFox: ;)
17:38:40 <arke> qFox: cygwin is a hunk of dog poop
17:38:57 <jc> This should be good....
17:39:09 <qFox> yeah i dont really care about the publog, but some ppl think google is ran by spacealiens trying to suck your brains out, or w/e
17:39:36 <qFox> SOMEBODY told me cygwin > ghostview. and as it cant really get much worse...
17:39:39 <blockhead> thye'll just have to adjust their tinfoil hats and cope  :D
17:39:44 <arke> if you google for my email address, you'll find it in a #forth log ;)
17:40:00 <blockhead> that;s why i don't give out my addy here
17:40:15 <qFox> its not as if that matters for google. 
17:40:27 <arke> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=koolaid_male%40yahoo.com&btnG=Google+Search
17:40:29 <qFox> maybe for some stupid bot grepping the log pages
17:40:33 <wossname> notepad > the linux kernel
17:40:34 <qFox> for addies
17:40:43 <Klaw> so i have to decide in 15 minutes
17:40:46 <Klaw> professor A: "He's a ver bad teacher, he's just an angree fat man that tells really corny jokes, not only that he doesn't know how to teach.  "
17:40:51 <qFox> yes, reading .ps files in notepad is kinda sucky though.
17:41:08 <blockhead> qFox: esp. with that 32k limit
17:41:09 <qFox> arke> i am honored my nick is in the first hit :p
17:41:18 <jc> .ps files suck, period.  Unless you're routing them straight to a printer.  PDF is the way to go.
17:41:25 <Klaw> prof B: "Class sucked, horrible teacher at explaining subjects. Dont take this teacher unless you want to self-teach yourself everything.  "
17:41:48 <qFox> jc> i already made that conclusion, however, unfortunatly, this manual is postscript
17:41:59 <jc> ah
17:42:08 * blockhead always thought pdf was just another form of ps?
17:42:33 <blockhead> either way, pdf seems to print better
17:42:36 <qFox> although, now, 2 hours later, i dont even fucking need it anymore since i've got my answer, but since cygwin is still almost done (euh..) installing 
17:42:36 <Klaw> had i chosen to enroll a little earlier I could have taken prof C: Professor Silveira, please do not stop wearing those short skirts or tight shirts, you are beautiful, you should show off that heavenly body of yours.  
17:42:40 <Klaw> :-/
17:43:10 <qFox> stalk her.
17:43:16 <blockhead> lol
17:43:19 <Klaw> i need my math credits :/
17:43:34 <blockhead> FUCKIN FLY!
17:43:43 <blockhead> a fly just shit on my monitor :/
17:43:48 <blockhead> left alittle black spot
17:43:55 <Klaw> blockhead: that's a baby
17:44:06 <Klaw> a gift from heaven 
17:44:10 <Klaw> you must nurture it
17:44:14 <qFox> stalk her without her knowledgement. secretly make pictures that cover your room walls. pick up stuff she throws away, make hairdolls out of her hair
17:44:19 <Klaw> "As I have said before and will say again, she is hot. Not only is she hot, but she has the best calves ever (im not joking). Her class isn't easy, but if you try hard you can atleast get a B and a good view.  "
17:44:31 <qFox> lol
17:44:37 <Klaw> I took her class a year ago, that review is right on the dot
17:44:47 <qFox> are you just quoting some "book" now? or a porn script :p
17:44:49 <Klaw> i didn't try hard, and got a D
17:44:50 <blockhead> photo?
17:44:52 <Klaw> ratemyprofessor
17:44:52 <blockhead> :D
17:44:56 <qFox> haha
17:45:01 <Klaw> she really has fabulous calves
17:45:20 <qFox> yes, not exactly a word i encounter much on irc...
17:45:25 <arke> lol
17:45:32 <arke> >[-]>[-]<<<[>>+>+<<<-]>>>[-<<<+>>>]<<[->[->+<<<+>>]>[<+>-]<<]<
17:45:35 <Klaw> i'd have a better word, but i don't
17:45:43 <arke> a multiply routine for BrainFuck
17:45:46 <blockhead> arkre: was that BF code?
17:45:51 <arke> bleyeah
17:45:52 <blockhead> it was  :o
17:45:54 <Klaw> arke: from BF or forthed first?
17:46:05 <arke> Klaw: thats pure BF right there.
17:46:09 <LOOP-HOG> you really don't get much for your $10 for a webspace imo
17:46:13 <Klaw> arke: I know that, I meant how did you generate it
17:46:23 <qFox> well. calves sounds like kalf, which is the word for a newly born cow in dutch, so it always sounds odd to me :p
17:46:30 <arke> Klaw: i write it in BF
17:46:39 <arke> qFox: ;)
17:46:55 <Klaw> qFox: you've a more apt word?
17:47:01 <Klaw> legs
17:47:12 <qFox> also. with the million and one icons cygwin gives me, how to i fucking view a ps with it? :(
17:47:12 <blockhead> oddly enough, also in english: "calf" means a baby cow
17:47:33 <qFox> Klaw> not really a leg man, just the total picture really, so i'd say body ;)
17:47:41 <blockhead> english is a confusing lanaguae becasue the same word with esame spelling will mean tow compliely unrelated different things
17:47:48 <blockhead> two, not tow
17:47:53 <qFox> especially if you're typing sux ...
17:47:54 <Klaw> you can always admire a feature
17:47:59 <blockhead> then you add my typos and it gets utterly confusing
17:48:03 <qFox> hehehe
17:48:08 <arke> Klaw: I first created the first part which set up a frame. Then, I coded the adding part. Then, I added the duplication+restore copy part. Then, I found a bug and fixed it.
17:48:35 <qFox> blockhead> that could well be a quote for the books btw ;)
17:48:46 <blockhead> ?
17:48:56 <arke> Klaw: (the bug was that I had a > too much, and created a buffer overflow.
17:49:04 <Klaw> http://s94851334.onlinehome.us/Main/Index
17:49:07 <qFox> [02:47:40] <blockhead> english is a confusing lanaguae becasue the same word with esame spelling will mean tow compliely unrelated different things
17:49:08 <blockhead> qFox: my heinous typing?
17:49:16 <blockhead> :D
17:49:17 <qFox> combined with that sentence, yes
17:49:18 <Klaw> i'm trying to forth that -- http://www.rick.harrison.net/langlab/sonabook.html
17:49:33 <Klaw> with mine limited skills.. that's as far as i can get, a minor string parsing
17:49:58 <qFox> how do you start cygwin... i dunno but all those icons do nothing :\
17:50:46 <blockhead> I think calves means a particular part of the leg, but I'm nore sure what part  :D
17:50:56 <qFox> .... wtf ever. is that what i've been installing for for over half n hour?
17:51:19 <qFox> isnt it the muscle part of the lower part of the leg? above the ankles?
17:51:28 <blockhead> qFox: just throw on bb4win if you want your windows to look unix-y
17:51:34 <qFox> no.
17:52:06 <qFox> dont really care for hte look (although i WILL tear down the default xp theme whenever i can)
17:52:11 <blockhead> :D
17:52:17 <qFox> no teletubbies on my system thankyouverymuch
17:52:30 <blockhead> oooog, teletubbies
17:52:54 <blockhead> I watched that show once, just to see what all the fuss was about.  F'n scary.  creepy
17:53:01 <I440r> and the english call americans immature
17:53:11 <I440r> THAT has to be the most immature thing i ever heared of
17:53:19 <qFox> I440r> eh, the show was MEANT for childeren y'know..
17:53:25 <I440r> stupid program invented to DUMB DOWN the kids
17:53:33 <blockhead> I wouldn't let my kids watch it.  turn them into little zombies
17:53:39 <I440r> exactly
17:53:42 <qFox> colored zombies
17:53:47 <I440r> S/Street for ever
17:53:48 <qFox> with nice hats
17:53:49 <qFox> :p
17:53:49 <blockhead> it's CREEPY
17:53:57 <blockhead> s/street - yes, that is good
17:54:03 <LOOP-HOG> each a different color, all alike
17:54:16 <qFox> sesame street, where big bird has a different color wherever you go!
17:54:24 <qFox> (its yellow in america, its blue in holland)
17:54:33 <LOOP-HOG> why?
17:54:36 <qFox> ...
17:54:39 <qFox> because it is
17:54:39 <I440r> who is YaroslavVB ?
17:54:44 <I440r> heh
17:54:45 <LOOP-HOG> are yellow birds offensive to your people?
17:54:52 <qFox> probably
17:54:57 <qFox> I440r> spy.
17:55:01 <LOOP-HOG> what color in zimbabwae
17:55:05 <blockhead> the one TT episode I watched, a persiscope thing came out of the ground and ordered a teletubby to sit down, then stand up, over and over again.  Wht the hell is this, the nazi show? 
17:55:33 <I440r> oh no. they released anotehr open office version lol. even with THREE machines distccing it it will take ages :/
17:55:34 <qFox> ... find somebody from there and ask him. personally i dont think a bird can survive long enough in zimbabwe to be on television
17:55:53 <blockhead> big bird is blue in some countries?  That's weird
17:56:04 <LOOP-HOG> where is he green?
17:56:17 <qFox> i grew up with a blue bird, seeing it yellow is odd
17:56:18 <qFox> :)
17:56:30 <LOOP-HOG> i have a few questions about my site
17:56:34 * blockhead just looks confused
17:56:36 <LOOP-HOG> 1. should i change the name
17:56:56 <qFox> i wonder if dutch kids will make the connection with foreign sesame street toys that have a yellow bird
17:57:13 <qFox> i mean, the connection that they are the same character, if you will
17:57:13 <LOOP-HOG> 2. do you really things its a bad idea to have a real name attached to anything on the web, even if its just part of a real name
17:57:37 <qFox> its not a bad idea. depends on yourself imo.
17:58:15 <LOOP-HOG> then i should take it out of the mail buttons too and use an alias email, which i have
17:58:32 <qFox> btw, why dont you let http://www.memnonio.com/forth.html forward to the isp page?
17:58:38 <qFox> looks better then the isp page.
17:58:42 <qFox> i mean the url does
17:59:03 <qFox> thats all up to you really. 
17:59:10 <LOOP-HOG> because it would cost $50 and i don't have it right now
17:59:20 <qFox> oh you lost the domain ?
17:59:37 <LOOP-HOG> i just didn't feel like spending $10/month $120/year to keep this thing up
17:59:42 <blockhead> 'nn all
17:59:42 <qFox> ah ok
17:59:44 <LOOP-HOG> so i'm trying to save moneyh
17:59:47 <qFox> nite
17:59:54 <qFox> in fact, i'm going as well :)
17:59:56 <LOOP-HOG> and i am using my isp's free webspace
17:59:59 --- quit: blockhead ("laugha while you can, monkey boy")
18:00:00 <qFox> yeh
18:00:42 <LOOP-HOG> i already had my isp change my login name so that my url would be what it is, and now i can go bug them tomorrow to do it again :^)
18:00:48 --- quit: qFox ("this.is.not a.real.netsplit")
18:00:53 <LOOP-HOG> they will be thrilled.
18:02:45 <LOOP-HOG> http://members.dsl-only.net/~loophog/forth.html
18:02:54 <LOOP-HOG> ??
18:03:12 <LOOP-HOG> http://members.dsl-only.net/~loop-hog/forth.html
18:12:07 --- quit: wossname (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
18:22:45 --- quit: cmeme (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
18:23:58 --- join: cmeme (~cmeme@216.184.11.30.unused.swcp.com) joined #forth
18:24:27 <LOOP-HOG> HI
18:27:45 <LOOP-HOG> l8ter
18:27:47 --- quit: LOOP-HOG ()
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19:57:29 <ASau> Dobre jitro, Murrlin.
19:57:43 <Murrlin> g'evening
19:58:02 <Murrlin> that almost looks a) romanion b) croation c) lithuanian or d) yugoslavian
19:58:24 <ASau> Cestina.
19:58:57 <Murrlin> not familiar with that
19:59:28 <ASau> This can't be lithuanian.
19:59:42 <ASau> Lith. should be "Labas ritas."
20:00:12 <Murrlin> my dad's father was a multilinguist
20:00:29 <Murrlin> and I grew up with lots of phrases and lots of music from europe
20:00:35 <Murrlin> but alas it's almost all gone now
20:04:30 <ASau> I don't know romanian, but I know the man from Moldavia, who knows.
20:05:27 <ASau> I doubt Romanian "morning" sounds like slavic.
20:27:58 <Murrlin> lousy speller but "beuno nopce"
20:28:48 <ASau> Spokojjnojj nochi.
20:53:52 <ASau> I've to go.
20:53:54 <ASau> Bye.
20:53:56 --- quit: ASau ()
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21:19:50 <jc> It pains me that the C compiler produces smaller, faster code than the Forth intepeter.
21:21:08 <Murrlin> hmmm
21:22:34 <I440r> they dont - its an illusion :)
21:23:08 <Murrlin> wb
21:23:28 <jc> No, in this case, it does.  It is, sadly, a function of the miserable PIC architecture.
21:23:38 <I440r> oh
21:23:49 <Murrlin> PIC! *perk*
21:24:10 <jc> PICs cause brain damage.
21:24:15 <jc> <- brain damaged
21:24:18 <Murrlin> *snerk*
21:24:30 <jc> Played with PicForth at all?
21:25:25 <Murrlin> I'd love to play with PICs
21:25:41 <jc> What's stopping you?
21:25:49 <Murrlin> outlay
21:26:22 <jc> Can you solder?
21:26:38 <Murrlin> I haven't weilded an iron since 1988
21:26:58 <Murrlin> a good one, anyway
21:27:04 <Murrlin> RShits don't count
21:27:10 <jc> No.  They don't.
21:27:30 <Murrlin> get what you pay for
21:29:41 <jc> I started doing some contract work on PICs, and I paid $99 for my ICD2 (new, some Microchip special deal), and the PICDem.Net board I picked up used for $10.  If you're willing to build your own programmer, you should be able to get started for around $20.  But you'll need to do some soldering.
21:30:12 * Murrlin nods once
21:30:48 <Murrlin> weller = fine calligraphy quill. rs = dried up bic someone ran over with a tank
21:31:31 <I440r> eek! i didnt realise the time lol
21:31:36 <I440r> i gotta be up at 6 am lol
21:31:37 <Murrlin> ttfn I44
21:31:39 <I440r> grrr 
21:31:46 <I440r> nite nite :)
21:31:50 <I440r> be a regular in here
21:31:53 <jc> Early == no fun.
21:31:54 <jc> See ya.
21:31:56 <I440r> we need more forthers
21:31:57 <Murrlin> what is this PICDem board of which you speak
21:32:01 <Murrlin> aye aye sir! *grin*
21:33:23 * Murrlin does a goog
21:33:40 <jc> It's a demo board, by microchip.  It's got a LCD, socket for PIC16F87x or 16F88, couple of pots for the A/D, serial port, some LEDs.
21:33:43 <jc> Small prototyping area.
21:34:03 <Murrlin> nifty
21:34:12 <jc> Oh, and a RTL8019 ethernet chip.  It's supposed to demo their TCP/IP stack for the PIC.
21:34:19 <Murrlin> seems the 16s are used a lot
21:34:57 <jc> Indeed.  They're small, cheap, available in many configurations.  Hobbyests love them because you can get DIP parts.
21:35:00 <jc> Me, I prefer SMT.
21:35:26 <jc> And Microchip has cheap development tools.  Their only real expensive tools are the in-circuit emulators and the C compiler.
21:35:40 <Murrlin> whoah it's a pocket miniwebserver.. cute!
21:36:22 <jc> But the PIC architecture is poor.  The 16 series has no add with carry, no decimal adjust after addition, there's only 1 interrupt handler, although the part has 35 or so interrupt sources.
21:36:37 <Murrlin> hrm
21:36:51 <jc> Which means testing *every* interrupt condition you have enabled, leading to interrupt priority issues.
21:36:54 <Murrlin> is there a series you prefer over that one?
21:37:44 <jc> I prefer the AVRs and the MSP430s by a long shot.  I'm using the 18 series on some contract work, but primarily because they already were using them, and had a code base.  Other contracts, I've used the AVRs and MSP430s, but I've had control of the design.
21:37:54 <jc> I've not used the 12 series at all.
21:38:17 <Murrlin> both of those by microchip?
21:38:55 <jc> The only real reason I'm playing with the 16F877 is because PicForth is one of the only non-pay Forth packages for microcontrollers that's done right (by my definition of done right).
21:39:05 <jc> No, the AVRs are Atmel, the MSP430 is TI.
21:39:05 --- quit: LOOP-HOG ()
21:39:10 <Murrlin> ahh
21:39:52 <jc> Some of the AVRs are available in DIP.  I don't think any of the MSP430s are.  AVR has some reasonably priced tools, but TI and microchips are prolly a little less expensive (we're talking a total different of maybe $100).
21:39:59 <jc> What's your background?
21:40:16 <Murrlin> ahhh hmm
21:40:26 <Murrlin> lived too long, done too little ^^
21:40:39 <Murrlin> well
21:41:02 <Murrlin> electronics somewhat thru the 80s, PC and c64 and then more PC through the 90s
21:41:21 <Murrlin> basic, pascal, tiny bit of forth (commo)... that's about it
21:41:55 * Murrlin adds homebrew audio editing in the 80s
21:42:07 <jc> Ah, the venerable C64.  I remember it well, complete with 1541 floppies.  I have one in the basement, somewhere.
21:42:36 <Murrlin> I have 2 in a storagebox
21:42:55 <Murrlin> dabbled a little with cb in the 80s
21:43:13 <Murrlin> I'd love to return to electronics, and possibly dabble in HAM
21:43:28 <jc> I bought some vintage stuff off of eBay a while back, in an attempt to recreate my childhood.  I still have my original IMSAI, but had gotten rid of my Apples, C64s, etc.  So I bought some more.  Now that I have a house again, I intend to unpack them and play with them.
21:43:29 <Murrlin> wish I had an amiga 2000/3000... 
21:43:39 <Murrlin> oooooo
21:43:59 <Murrlin> <- more a user than a coder nowdays, if anything
21:44:23 <jc> I also have a SOL-20 someone gave me.  Haven't had a chance to light it up yet.  No peripherials, either.  Although I likely can't afford them, I would almost kill for a 4 drive Helios cabinet for it.
21:44:34 <Murrlin> ooo
21:44:52 * Murrlin isn't keen on buying into a classic system unless I can heavy-dev on it asap
21:45:07 <jc> I understand.
21:45:08 <Murrlin> with net resources, some of this will be avaded? no that's not a word
21:45:20 <Murrlin> avoided? evaded? hmm
21:45:22 <jc> My problem is I collect shit with the intent to do things on it, and never get around to it.  
21:45:25 <Murrlin> apated?
21:46:11 <Murrlin> if I snagged an apple 2e+ or a 2c, as long as it had a serial port, I could jumpstart any kind of dev I wanted on it
21:46:29 <jc> Have you looked at any of the simulators?  Like simh?  I designed a Z80 SBC (http://tinymicros.com/embedded/Z80/index.html), and used simh to develop the BIOS to treat the CF card as a storage device.
21:46:49 <Murrlin> simulators? sounds like a different animal than emulators
21:46:50 <Murrlin> hmmm
21:46:52 * Murrlin go looks
21:47:17 <Murrlin> I've read threads on using CF with classic comps
21:47:23 <Murrlin> wonder how feasible that'd be
21:47:36 <Murrlin> perhaps, I'm confusing CF with PSX memcards
21:47:54 <Murrlin> I've never gotten to dabble with a z80 yet
21:48:08 <jc> Well, the old CP/M machines and such rarely had graphics.  Simulators tend to be text based, where emulators tend to be more graphics.  At least, in my experience.  I was running a PDP-11/70 simulator here, complete with 2 RK05 disks.  Running BSD 4.3
21:48:20 * Murrlin imagines the task of coding a dissassembler on one would be quite hairy
21:48:39 <Murrlin> a z80based computer
21:48:51 <Murrlin> which reminds me. I want to browse some MSX stuff tonight
21:48:58 <jc> Some guy did a card for the Apple that treated the CF card as a HD.  I thought about buying one, but never got around to it.  Although it's not that hard to wire-wrap one, if you can run across an old Apple prototyping card.
21:49:02 <Murrlin> forth on such a beastie would be kinda fun
21:49:14 <jc> MSX?
21:49:37 <Murrlin> wow... I keep forgetting that CF can pass 32 or 64 meg without a blink
21:49:47 <Murrlin> don't Nomads use CF?
21:50:00 <jc> And they're very easy to interface to.  Basically, it's a parallel port.
21:50:06 <Murrlin> microsoft's 8bit computer, mostly within japan and/or europe
21:50:11 <jc> I don't know anything about the Nomads. They might.
21:50:12 <Murrlin> ooooo
21:50:28 <jc> Oh, right.  I don't know anything about the MSX, but the title rings a bell.
21:50:44 <Murrlin> and 32meg to an apple 2 is like the state of montana to a mobile home =)
21:50:44 <jc> http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=90
21:51:02 <Murrlin> that would be so fun to tinker with
21:51:04 <jc> Yah.  Years ago, I used to run a BBS on an Apple II with a single floppy.  
21:51:12 <Murrlin> wow goodness
21:51:14 <jc> Wrote the BBS myself, in integer Basic.
21:51:27 <Murrlin> wow!
21:51:38 * Murrlin wonders where a simple treatise on CF tech would be found
21:52:10 <jc> And about 2000 lines of assembly.  Had a Language Card that I used to store the user database on.  It was the first message board in the southeast to use circular message files.  I had 1 main file of 100 messages, and 2 25 message sub files (1 was for a chess group, the other I don't remember).  
21:52:57 <Murrlin> that's pretty neat
21:53:01 <jc> Anything on thebasic  IDE command set is applicable to CF cards.  CF cards can run in one of two or three modes.  One is IDE, where it looks exactly like an IDE drive.  The other is memory mapped.  I've never used them in that mode.
21:54:24 <jc> CFs have one advantage over HDs with the 8 bit computers.  CF cards are mandated to support an 8 bit interface, whereas the HDs 8 bit support is optional, and no modern drives support 8 bits.  This just means that if you don't do a 16 bit interface, you toss half the capacity.  Even though I doubt I could come up with 32GB of CP/M software, the idea of wasting half the storage just seems wrong.
21:54:47 <Murrlin> mmm
21:55:41 <Murrlin> CF is basically a nonvolatile memstick
21:56:02 <jc> Yea, you can look at it that way.  Or as a solid state disk drive.
21:57:03 <jc> Unlike MMC and SD cards and raw flash memory, CF cards do the wear leveling algorithms internally.  Which means if you do a fair amount of writing, it saves a lot of work on your end.  Otherwise, you should implement your own wear leveling algorithms, and that's just a major PITA.
21:57:20 <Murrlin> if I am to be a reg here, where do I register my nick
21:57:38 <Murrlin> wear leveling?
21:57:41 <jc> Do a /msg chanserv help, I think.  It'll 
21:59:24 <jc> Yea.  flash memory has a limited number of writes before the flash cell(s) wear out.  Some file systems, like FAT for example, are really bad about re-writing the same section of the the disk constantly.  An example would be the root directory of a floppy (or HD) if you create and delete a lot of files.  If you don't do wear leveling, you'll wear out the sectors the directory is stored in, while the rest of the card may have relatively little usage.
21:59:47 <Murrlin> and CF?
22:00:01 <jc> Wear leveling keeps counters on how many times each sector is wrote, and moves data around internally so that most or all sectors get written an equal amount of times.
22:00:11 <jc> CF handles this transparently, internally.
22:00:56 <Murrlin> there I'm registered =) go on
22:02:30 <jc> The most likely point of failure is the file allocation table, rather than the directory.  Everytime you create or change the length of a file, the FAT gets written.  So it's likely to be the busiest spot on the disk, although it's rather application dependent.  It could be you wear out the root directory sector(s) first.  But the point is that there are certain sections of the disk that experience more activity than others, and wear leveling makes sure that you don't
22:02:30 <jc>  wear out those sectors prematurely.
22:04:58 <Murrlin> I wonder if a 'defrag' (hypothetically existant) would mess up a CF any
22:05:12 <Murrlin> or counter the effects of wearleveling
22:05:47 <Murrlin> I'd love to know what that is in the pic in http://www.sics.se/~adam/contiki/
22:06:50 <jc> You should build up a little PIC board, tho.  I've been thinking about this, and you can really do it on the cheap.  In fact, you should be able to get most of the parts as samples (16F877s from Microchip, voltage regulators from OnSemi, etc), and you should be able to strip old equipment for sockets and such.  Even with a RS iron.  You need a crystal, or better, a TTL oscillator that you can get off an old video card or motherboard.  Some LEDs, a 40 pin socket, and e
22:06:50 <jc> ither a 5V supply (PC power support), or a 5V regulator.  All told, you could be blinking LEDs for less than $15.
22:07:32 <Murrlin> hehehehehe
22:07:39 * Murrlin holds up a 555 longingly
22:07:54 <Murrlin> alas poor yorick... *toss*
22:08:00 <jc> heh
22:08:36 <Murrlin> you should see this big mess of a sh*t of a circuit I tried designing on paper long before I even knew about microcontrollers
22:08:37 <jc> There are parallel port based PIC programmers that use a couple of common parts that you can either yank from old equipment, or get as samples.
22:08:53 <Murrlin> or 64mbit eproms
22:09:23 <Murrlin> my 1st project is going to have to be an xe1541 cable
22:09:40 <jc> Microcontrollers have certainly made life easier, compared to the old days.  I don't miss 50 component TTL circuits.
22:10:02 <Murrlin> ohohoh
22:10:03 <jc> Cools.
22:10:18 --- join: wmg (~weldon@bgp02689673bgs.flrdav01.dc.comcast.net) joined #forth
22:10:32 <jc> wmg?  Weapon of Mass Goofiness?
22:10:41 <wmg> nah, just my initials
22:10:44 <jc> :)
22:10:46 <Murrlin> now, try designing a 99-game selection system for an atari vcs without the use of microcontrollers or high-value eproms
22:10:49 <Murrlin> gets pretty hairy
22:11:16 <Murrlin> I think I hit 40 chips
22:11:24 <wmg> Man #dns's MOTD is stupid...
22:11:35 <Murrlin> g'evening wmg
22:11:40 <wmg> hi Murrlin
22:11:59 <Murrlin> jc: seems that HAM is talked about in here often?
22:12:08 <jc> I've kind of wanted to build a cassette/paper tape emulator, so you can store old programs from Cosmac Elfs, Apples, Pets, etc on CF cards.  Basically, the box would know about the encoding scheme each system uses, and converts the audio tones to bit, or bits to audio tones.  A LCD would allow you to select the program to load/save, etc.
22:12:10 * Murrlin wonders if forth and hams go together
22:12:28 <Murrlin> jc: awesome idea
22:13:10 <jc> Maybe more people who use Forth are interested in ham radio, but I wouldn't say that people who are hams tend to be more interested in Forth.
22:13:33 <Murrlin> mmmm
22:13:47 <Murrlin> surely forth and robotics are bedfellows
22:14:11 <jc> That seems likely.
22:14:28 <jc> Although I have no real interest in robotics, myself.
22:14:33 <Murrlin> I'd love to dabble with a Mindstorms
22:14:53 <Murrlin> but the outlay, and I don't have much mind for things like that anymore for some reason
22:15:23 <jc> Nothing I want to build really runs at Lego resolution.
22:15:37 <jc> That's not to say that stuff isn't cool, but it doesn't suit anything I'd want to do.
22:15:50 <Murrlin> ahh
22:16:11 <jc> So what part of the world are you in?
22:16:37 <Murrlin> me? texas
22:16:49 <jc> Get your senators back yet?
22:16:57 <jc> Or are they still hiding in Montana and Mexico?
22:17:27 <Murrlin> sheehaha
22:17:35 <Murrlin> I'm hardly into politics
22:17:59 <jc> Me neither, but I think stunts like that should get their sorry asses tossed out.
22:18:04 <Murrlin> oh lord
22:18:09 <Murrlin> contiki on a gba? an nes?
22:18:15 <Murrlin> I'm very intrigued now
22:18:30 <jc> Alright, I've got tto head off to bed.  Catch ya later.
22:18:39 <Murrlin> nighters
22:18:49 <Murrlin> no one else is awake?
22:23:52 <Murrlin> alas again
22:24:07 * Murrlin stumbles around and steps on the discarded 555. *OWWIE!*
22:26:23 --- quit: Murrlin ("Mischief managed! ....Nox.")
22:26:34 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@66-74-218-202.san.rr.com) joined #forth
22:26:41 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja
22:27:10 <slava> hi
22:29:15 <kc5tja> ouch.
22:29:16 <kc5tja> ow
22:29:19 <kc5tja> ow.
22:29:36 <kc5tja> I'm going to make a great impersonation of a slat of wood tomorrow.
22:31:02 --- join: JAPeters (~japeters@adsl-66-125-90-181.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) joined #forth
22:31:54 <JAPeters> ok
22:32:44 <kc5tja> greetings -- for now.  I need to get to bed soon.
22:34:36 --- part: wmg left #forth
22:35:12 <kc5tja> just relaxing after an incredibly aerobic workout for me at aikido.
22:36:27 <slava> i just got home.
22:36:35 <kc5tja> Literally every muscle in my body is tight as a knot right now.
22:36:56 * kc5tja is stretching some of it out.
22:37:06 <kc5tja> for the third time tonight.  :)
22:43:36 <JAPeters> I found this in an interview with Tom Zimmer
22:43:46 <JAPeters> Tom Zimmer on how PD is preferred over GPL
22:43:58 <JAPeters> Win32Forth is public domain, so others can benefit from it, but also so I can benefit 
22:44:44 <JAPeters> from other peoples contributions. I prefer public domain, over GPL, because it 
22:45:03 <JAPeters> places less restrictions on use. True, anyone can take Win32Forth and turn it into a 
22:45:21 <JAPeters> commercial system, or write a commercial program without giving me or the other 
22:45:37 <JAPeters> contributors credit, but I am also free to use contributors code in commercial 
22:45:52 <JAPeters> applications I write, so while I always try to give credit where credit is due, being 
22:46:07 <JAPeters> able to solve applications problems is what drives me, not receiving credit for some 
22:46:17 <JAPeters> segment of code I wrote several years ago
22:46:28 <JAPeters> It came from here if you want to read the whole article.
22:46:40 <JAPeters> http://www.radiks.net/~jimbo/art/int6.htm
22:46:42 <JAPeters> ok
22:48:10 <kc5tja> Licensing is a matter of taste.  I'm personally a fan of GPL for some types of systems (OSes ought to be GPL, especially), but libpng for others.
22:48:35 <arke> kc5tja: yo uknow what?
22:48:43 <arke> kc5tja: PT-4 won't have ANYTHING on RK-2 ;)
22:49:04 <JAPeters> Some in our group wanted GPL but I think his opinion is ok
22:49:08 <slava> kc5tja: can i ask you something?
22:49:21 <kc5tja> The one achillies heel of public domain license is that I can take your software, *patent* it, then sue you years down the road because of patent infringement.
22:49:31 <JAPeters> oh
22:49:43 <JAPeters> brb
22:49:44 <kc5tja> There are already precedents where prior art has been ignored, so the use of prior art as a legal case isn't *always* guaranteed.
22:50:03 <kc5tja> Otherwise, I agree, I would just assume PD everything I write.
22:50:26 <arke> kc5tja: Why do you think your PT-4 would beat my RK-2? ;)
22:50:27 <kc5tja> slava: You just did.  :)
22:50:51 <kc5tja> arke: Because I'm older than you, and therefore my #@*$ will always be longer.  ;D
22:51:35 <arke> ack.
22:51:40 <arke> kc5tja: but seriously.
22:51:45 <kc5tja> Besides, arguing over who's turbine beats who's is irrelavent.  It all depends on the application it's used in.
22:51:51 <kc5tja> Sometimes, small things call for smaller turbines.
22:51:51 <slava> kc5tja: what is the outline of an algorithm for turning a string into an integer, and vice versa
22:52:00 <arke> kc5tja: 2 sets of 8 disks. Inversely coupled. Pretty much paper mostly.
22:52:14 <arke> kc5tja: theres one detail though.
22:52:22 <arke> kc5tja: would you like to guess the detail?
22:52:45 <kc5tja> arke: No, not really.  I just got back from aikido.  I'm intellectually and physically wiped.
22:53:23 <kc5tja> slava: uugh
22:53:41 <kc5tja> slava: I'm sure there are resources on the web that detail the algorithms.  I can't think of any right now.
22:53:58 <kc5tja> arke: What is the detail?
22:54:05 --- join: Frek (anvil@h87n2fls31o815.telia.com) joined #forth
22:54:06 <arke> http://www.nuklearpower.com/latest.php <--- hilarious
22:54:10 <arke> kc5tja: but the detail is...
22:54:20 <arke> kc5tja: it's gonna be, quite literally, supercharged.
22:55:25 <arke> kc5tja: err, turbocharged, I meant.
22:58:37 <arke> no questions?
23:00:23 <Frek> hmm lets discuss wheneither AmigaOS is a microkernel system or a no-kernel system instead :)
23:00:53 <kc5tja> arke: Well, all turbine engines, by definition, are turbocharged.  :)
23:01:16 <kc5tja> Frek: It's technically classified as a microkernel, but it shared many properties of a no-kernel OS.
23:01:37 <arke> kc5tja: well, I intend to turbo-turbocharge it ;)
23:01:39 <Frek> kc5tja: but implementation-vice it's a mixture ? 
23:02:48 <arke> kc5tja: what I was thinking is rerouting the combined exhaust through a centrifugal cliutch. When engaged, it opens to the air, butwhen not engaged, it goes to the intake.
23:03:18 <Frek> seems very much like a pure microkernel system to me, so I donno where the no-kernel references come from I just seen them on various places 
23:03:28 <arke> kc5tja: the clutch disengages when the output becomes a certain speed.
23:03:47 <arke> kc5tja: in addition, I am going to build a specialized intake thingy
23:04:30 <arke> kc5tja: it takes the straw input and the exhaust input together, but provids a flap there so that when only one is performing work, onl that one is open to the engine. 
23:05:01 <arke> kc5tja: should I sraw you a diagram of how i intend to do this/?
23:14:14 <kc5tja> Frek: AmigaOS's internal components are built precisely the same manner as user-supplied components.  There is no difference between the two.
23:14:24 <kc5tja> Frek: That's a very no-kernel-ish concept.
23:15:19 <kc5tja> arke: It totally sounds like a perpetual motion machine.
23:15:19 <Frek> kc5tja: ah ok, thank you.
23:20:03 <arke> kc	it wouldn't be. It's called friction :(
23:20:03 <arke> kc	although i think it'd probably be quite efficient
23:20:10 <arke> wtf////
23:20:29 <arke> all of those are kc5tja: and not kc5tja 
23:20:33 <arke> ack
23:20:33 <arke> lol
23:21:01 <Frek> heh
23:21:02 <kc5tja> arke: ?? <-- note the colon
23:21:18 <kc5tja> Frek: N/p.  I just found out that "galaxy" screensaver for X11 was originally written for AmigaOS though.  :D
23:21:39 <Frek> =)
23:24:21 <arke> kc5tja: also, unless i tihnk of something else, the centrigugal clutch is gonna take a bit of the ouput with it.
23:24:56 <arke> kc5tja: I'm trying to think of a way to replace it with a simple flap (like I have in the intake)
23:26:26 <arke> hmm, I have an idea.
23:26:55 <arke> kc5tja: have a rectanlge end. cut out a tiny slit at one end. Insall a rotateable flapo at the other end. give it an end.
23:27:41 <arke> kc5tja: then, when theres no air, or not alot, it goes thogugh the slit. If there is, it'll push the flap to unciover the intake selector
23:27:58 <arke> ..which at the same time covers the outside slit
23:27:59 <arke> ;)
23:28:03 <arke> would that work, you think?
23:28:19 <Frek> kc5tja: is dolphin dead btw ? 
23:39:08 <kc5tja> Frek: No, just on hold.
23:39:23 <Frek> kc5tja: ok, just curious as the sf page was gone 
23:39:46 <kc5tja> Frek: Yeah, the new Dolphin has many of the same goals, but the implementation will be wildly different.
23:40:11 <Frek> ah ic
23:40:25 <kc5tja> Frek: For starters, it'll be largely written in Forth.  :)
23:40:42 <Frek> heh 
23:40:46 <Frek> really ? 
23:41:15 <kc5tja> Frek: Well, it probably won't be very interactive like most Forth systems would be.
23:41:28 <kc5tja> But the binary code will be compiled via a Forth target compiler.
23:41:33 <Frek> =)
23:41:43 <kc5tja> arke: I don't know.  I can't even visualize what you're describing.
23:42:04 <kc5tja> Anyway, I do need to get to bed.  I have work in the morning.
23:42:09 <kc5tja> And I'm exhausted.
23:42:27 <arke> kc5tja: :)
23:42:30 <arke> kc5tja: good night
23:42:37 <arke> kc5tja: talk to you tomorrrow
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/04.06.28