00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.06.16
00:15:30 <arke> anybody alive?
00:15:31 <arke> :)
00:16:17 <arke> I440r: awake right now?
00:16:25 <topher> arke: go to bed.
00:16:29 <arke> noooo :)
00:16:32 <arke> topher: don't want to.
00:16:44 <topher> what time do you get up?
00:17:01 <arke> 6:30
00:17:28 * arke is away: switching to nick teehee
00:18:05 <topher> so stop bordering on unhealthy and grab some sleep
00:18:12 <topher> sleep is the greatest thing to do, better than forth even
00:18:35 <teehee> nothing is greater than forth.
00:18:36 <teehee> :)
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09:45:25 <I440r> ok well posting to CLF via google SUCKS
09:45:48 <I440r> i  probably just posted my 8051 assembler 2846523784 times there because i never got a "your message has been posted" off of google
09:46:12 <Sonarman> my news server seems to Suck
09:46:27 <I440r> i dont have any access to any news servers
09:47:05 <Sonarman> it discards all postings more than a certain amount of time old
09:47:21 <I440r> they all do
09:47:28 <Sonarman> oh
09:47:33 <Sonarman> except for google :)
09:47:43 <Sonarman> well, i stand corrected then
09:48:15 <Sonarman> although it still would be nice if it at least kept postings for a little while longer
09:48:48 <I440r> :)
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11:28:05 <qFox> hm gsm's (mobiles) can be very interesting :p
11:29:14 <qFox> i'm gonna get me a nokia 2300 (main reason is that it's the cheapest phone with a fm radio in it) and i was looking around on how to unlock the thing (so i wont have to switch provider)
11:29:22 <qFox> and appearantly these things have all kind of magic codes :p
11:30:20 <qFox> i mean, i've seen similar stuff in movies, but hey, they're movies. although i didnt find any heavy material (like hacking into someone else's phone or something with your mobile), there's still some funny stuff to be found
11:30:27 <qFox> its like entering cheatcodes :D
11:30:47 <qFox> my only testsubject atm however is my nokia 5510
11:30:55 <qFox> all these codes have two hashes (#) in them
11:31:05 <qFox> and hte shift button of my phone is ... almost dead
11:31:22 <qFox> (and yes, i need that damned shift to get a #)
11:31:33 <qFox> so that really sux :(
11:31:56 <Sonarman> what do these cofdes do?
11:31:57 <Sonarman> codes
11:32:10 <qFox> well all i could test on my phone was hte sim lock stuff
11:32:41 <qFox> after a long search i finally managed to find me a "master code" generator (the only one easily found is a 15$ dongle software package, which i was not about to buy)
11:32:58 <qFox> http://www.sms-india.com/unlock_codes/nokia_8260_unlock_codes.htm
11:33:19 <qFox> there you can read about phone specific options (there's a list with other versions on that page)
11:33:27 <qFox> most nokia's appear to have the same mechanism
11:34:07 <qFox> and this page: http://www.clowes32.freeserve.co.uk/ringtoneshotline/nokia%20secret%20codes2.htm is a bit unsorted
11:34:23 <qFox> but i dont really want to fuck around with my phone untill i have a new one :p
11:35:59 <qFox> cellphone phreaking (proper term? i think it is...) is fun
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12:09:06 <ianp> QFOX...
12:09:11 <ianp> er, caps.. what can I do with tit though?
12:09:16 <ianp> tit=it
12:15:36 <qFox> unlock the phone for other providers 
12:15:39 <qFox> mainlyu
12:16:05 <qFox> i dont have the hardware (eg. cables) to mess around further
12:16:16 <qFox> install new firmware etc
12:16:18 <ianp> does that mean like, more coverage?
12:16:22 <qFox> hm no
12:16:32 <qFox> generally when you buy a new phone
12:16:38 <qFox> you buy one in a package deal with some provider
12:16:41 <ianp> so if it was a nice phone and I wanted to switch providers
12:16:48 <qFox> either prepaid or euh
12:16:51 <qFox> right
12:17:03 <qFox> but "usually" (not always) this phone is locked
12:17:12 <qFox> to only accept simcards of that specific provider
12:17:50 <qFox> but i want this new phone, and keep my old number (and provider)
12:18:02 <qFox> the bare phone would cost me 125E
12:18:06 <teehee> hi
12:18:13 <qFox> this package prepaid deal costs me 80E
12:18:30 <qFox> (plus you get a new simcard and 15E to call with, if i'd like to ;)
12:28:22 <Sonarman> hi chris
12:29:35 <teehee> hi ;)
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14:31:06 <slava> hi all.
14:31:35 <htp123> hey
14:35:49 <teehee> y0 d00dz0r
14:36:21 <htp123> sup y0~~
14:36:57 <slava> i'm working on saving/loading images (not graphics, but interpreter)
14:38:33 <htp123> like interpreter state?
14:38:54 <slava> everything -- word definitions, variable values
14:39:02 <slava> not the stacks though
14:39:16 <slava> its not a memory dump, but rather a more 'portable' format.
14:39:21 <htp123> ah ok
14:39:22 <slava> so not all objects can be saved
14:39:26 <htp123> kinda like the opposite of cold?
14:39:30 <teehee> I've got a question -- in a multiply step, what exactly is the step?
14:39:34 <slava> eg, file streams and such
14:39:45 <teehee> I'm assuming that it takes the highest bit, shifts it, masks it, and adds
14:39:47 <htp123> in what forth?  yours?
14:39:52 <slava> if you have a var pointing to an fd, and restart the interpreter, the fd is not valid
14:39:56 <teehee> but I'm not sure
14:40:01 <slava> htp123: in my language which isn't really a forth
14:40:27 <htp123> well, forth is a pretty broad definition depending on who you ask
14:40:29 <slava> htp123: call it 'dynamic forth'
14:40:34 <slava> htp123: www.jedit.org/factor is the url
14:40:45 <htp123> cool, i'll check it out
14:41:01 <htp123> is it written in java?
14:41:10 <slava> the compiler and interpreter are written in java
14:41:22 <slava> the rest is written in the langauge and compiles to java bytecode
14:41:35 <htp123> do you have something like pointers?
14:41:38 <htp123> for variables and such
14:41:58 <tathi> teehee: other way around.  If the _low_ bit is set, add, then shift _right_.
14:42:05 <slava> variables are late-bound and stored in a database, you look them up with string names in nested tables
14:42:12 <slava> words are early-bound like forth though
14:42:29 <htp123> sorry, i don't know what early/late bound is
14:42:37 <slava> well, if i write "myvariable" get
14:42:42 <slava> the lookup is done at runtime
14:42:45 <warpzero> damn
14:42:49 <slava> because the get word takes a string
14:42:55 <warpzero> neither kc6 nor i440r are in here
14:43:33 <slava> early bound is compiling in the address of the variable
14:43:33 <teehee> tathi: so, does it take the lowest bit or the low bit?
14:43:41 <teehee> tathi: as in, do I manually have to shift for the next step?
14:43:45 <htp123> oh ok
14:43:53 <htp123> and how do you obtain the address of the variable?
14:44:10 <htp123> i'm not too familiar with java..
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14:49:09 <slava> htp123: word definitions are early bound (compiled in)
14:49:36 <slava> word references i mean -- eg if you compile 6 dup * then 'dup' points directly to the word definition of 'dup' etc
14:50:07 <htp123> ah ok.  and how are words actually implemented?  are they java methods?
14:50:33 <slava> primitives are java methods
14:51:08 <slava> : ... ; definitions written in factor get interpreted, or compiled to java bytecode methods
14:51:32 <htp123> cool
14:51:37 <htp123> sounds interesting
14:51:44 <slava> the interpreter is indirect threaded i guess, and the compiler compiles subroutine calls basically
14:51:55 <slava> inlining some constructs, and also adding branching/looping bytecodes etc
14:52:36 <htp123> have you done any performance testing yet?
14:53:46 <slava> yes, but not compared to other languages
14:54:07 <slava> its probably as slow/fast as an interpreter written in C
14:54:18 <slava> but slower than a native x86 compiler
14:54:42 <htp123> compared it to java?
14:55:00 <tathi> teehee: no, the shift is part of the instruction
14:55:46 <tathi> +* ( n1 n2 -- n1 n2 | n1 n1+n2 ) \ multiply step opcode
14:55:48 <slava> htp123: 3-10x slower than java, since java code uses primitive types for math but factor has to wrap primitives in objects
14:55:49 <tathi>      \ conditional nondestructive add opcode DUP 1 AND IF OVER + THEN
14:55:52 <teehee> tathi: awesome ... it shifts until the lowest bit is set, then takes one bit, shifts it that amount, and adds it, right? :)
14:55:59 <tathi> no.
14:56:01 <htp123> ah, yah that makes sense
14:56:03 <slava> htp123: i'm working on type inference in the compiler
14:56:11 <teehee> eh..
14:56:32 <htp123> cool
14:56:34 <slava> htp123: oh yeah, unlike forth this language has a type system
14:56:49 <htp123> oh yah?
14:56:54 <slava> htp123: 1.2 1.3 + returns a float, 1 3 + returns an integer
14:57:06 <htp123> so you just have floats and ints?
14:57:14 <slava> htp123: dividing integers gives a ratio
14:57:22 <slava> which can be coerced to a float or an integer if desired
14:57:42 <htp123> that's not too bad.  C types are scary
14:57:52 <slava> multiplying integers that would overfloat coeres up to an arbitrary precision integer.
14:57:57 <tathi> teehee: hmm...maybe you do have to shift it.  see http://ultratechnology.com/mfp21.htm
14:58:06 <teehee> http://ultratechnology.com/mfp21.htm
14:58:17 <teehee> oops, sorry
15:01:44 <htp123> is anyone familiar with colorforth?
15:02:08 <slava> seems to minimal to me :)
15:02:32 <htp123> heh, yah it is pretty small
15:03:23 <tathi> see #c4th and #c4th-ot, maybe.
15:03:35 <teehee> tathi: yeah, seems like I have to shift for that
15:03:46 <htp123> oh, thanks.  didnt know they exist
15:03:50 <teehee> htp123: #c4th channel is here on freenode now, visit #c4th-ot too while you're at it
15:03:58 <warpzero> is there any scientific / algoritms / modeling channels on this godforsaken network
15:03:59 <teehee> ack, tathi grr lol
15:05:00 <tathi> ;)
15:06:57 <teehee> hrm.
15:07:13 <teehee> I'm seeing him demonstrate it, but I'm not quite getting it (not verbose enough?)
15:07:42 <tathi> yeah, it doesn't work exactly the way I thought it did.
15:08:01 <tathi> I just assumed I knew the algorithm, apparently I never actually looked at it :)
15:08:15 <teehee> :)
15:08:37 <teehee> I think I might have it figured out though. (don't hold me to that)
15:09:19 <teehee> +* seems to be a conditional add only, depending on the lowest bit
15:09:57 <tathi> yes.
15:12:37 <teehee> strill not making sense :P
15:13:40 <tathi> Oh.  Oops.
15:13:57 <tathi> The top of stack is a regular number.
15:14:04 <tathi> The other one is _left_ justified
15:14:08 <tathi> i.e. in the high bits.
15:15:29 <tathi> So if you're doing a 4x4 multiply, like in Jeff's example there, you shift the one number up 4 bits, *then* do the multiply-stepping.
15:15:50 <tathi> Hmm...that's completely backwards of how I thought it worked.
15:16:14 <teehee> well, i figured that
15:16:25 <teehee> but the way he illustrates the shift isn't making sense at all
15:17:00 <tathi> He's just dropping the lowest bit.
15:17:17 <tathi> I would have aligned it over one, and stuck a zero on the top.
15:17:21 <tathi> But it's the same thing.
15:17:30 <teehee> hrm
15:17:31 <teehee> ooh
15:17:34 <teehee> I think I see.
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15:17:57 <teehee> : *+ dup 1 and + ;
15:18:08 <teehee> er
15:18:09 <teehee> no
15:19:28 <teehee> akc
15:19:28 <teehee> lol
15:19:36 <teehee> anywya, I think I get it now :)
15:19:45 <teehee> the second number is what it adds every time
15:19:50 <tathi> heh.
15:19:53 <tathi> yes
15:19:56 <tathi> He has forth code there.
15:20:08 <tathi> : +* DUP 1 AND IF OVER + THEN ;
15:20:57 <teehee> one could probably write it such that it does away with the conditional ^_^
15:21:52 <teehee> tathi: thanks for teh help ^_^
15:21:56 <tathi> err...not so easily in software :)
15:22:08 <tathi> simple enough in hardware, I think.
15:24:09 <teehee> tathi: sign extend the flag (in whatever way) and then mask + add
15:24:29 <teehee> tathi: although by then it'd probably be quicker with the conditinoal
15:27:39 <tathi> yeah, that's what I meant -- sign extend is simple in hardware, but slow in software.
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16:35:34 <lament> What's a nice, small forth (for linux) to play with?
16:37:08 <Sonarman> lament: gforth, isforth, bigForth are some
16:37:27 <lament> How interesting, bigForth is a small forth? :)
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16:38:02 <lament> I would say anything ANSI-conforming isn't small.
16:39:45 <Sonarman> then isforth
16:40:00 <Sonarman> and maybe albert van der hoorst's forths (forget what they're called)
16:41:21 <Sonarman> marcel hendrix's port of eforth to linux
16:41:52 <teehee> :)
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17:20:09 <Sonarman> oh, jesus christ
17:21:01 <Sonarman> I440r posted his assembler 17 times to c.l.f!
17:35:21 <Robert> Heh
17:44:01 <onetom> looser.. ;)
17:44:17 <onetom> hi all, anyway
17:48:40 <Robert> Hi onetom :)
18:07:16 <qFox> hi ro_bert
18:07:51 <qFox> actually nite. 
18:10:01 <Robert> Hehe.
18:10:05 <Robert> Welterusten :)
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19:45:46 <blockhead> 'nn all
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19:50:31 <slava> hi
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20:49:52 <ianp> yo
20:54:09 <teehee> hi all
21:00:51 <slava> what is everybody hacking?
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21:05:02 <teehee> I'm cleaning my room
21:05:03 <teehee> and
21:05:16 <teehee> I am going to start work on Frapiar once again
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21:11:44 <teehee> hello there matthew kramer
21:15:59 <Herkamire> teehee: continuing where you left off I hope
21:16:50 <teehee> Herkamire: ?
21:16:56 <teehee> Herkamire: oh
21:16:59 <teehee> Herkamire: partially.
21:19:57 <Sonarman> Hi there Sir Walton of Suburbia!
21:20:21 <teehee> :)
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21:23:22 <I440r> fucking google is a pile of shit for doing CLF withg
21:23:44 <teehee> well, find a free newsserver.
21:23:50 <teehee> I haven't found one y7et.
21:24:47 <I440r> there arent any
21:25:25 <teehee> well, ther was a czech one, but it didn't allow posting
21:25:36 <teehee> or rather, they did, but they stopped
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21:27:34 <Sonarman> I440r: yes, i saw your 17 posts :)
21:27:49 <teehee> hi kc5tja 
21:28:08 <teehee> kc5tja: got a question - what is the difference between regular gasoline and diesel?
21:28:18 <teehee> kc5tja: and another question - could you make a diesel rotary engine? :P
21:31:10 <I440r> every time i posted i got that internal server error message
21:31:46 <I440r> disel ignights under pressure
21:32:06 <I440r> gas can too but they try prevent it :)
21:33:06 <I440r> woohoo 300k per second download :)
21:33:32 <I440r> and im not paying a penny for my connection lol
21:33:47 <teehee> lol
21:37:07 <kc5tja> Howdy
21:38:13 <kc5tja> The ignition of diesel is not pressure induced -- it's temperature induced.
21:38:33 <teehee> I knew that --- but there's gotta be more to it lol
21:38:34 <kc5tja> The air, when compressed, is about 100K hotter than the flash point for diesel fuel, and that is what causes Diesel to ignite.
21:38:38 <kc5tja> No, that's it.
21:38:42 <teehee> for example, why more torquish?
21:38:53 <kc5tja> teehee: Because it is a more efficient engine.
21:38:53 <teehee> that's all!?
21:39:12 <kc5tja> It operates at higher compression ratios, and therefore, better approximates Carnot's cycle.
21:39:15 <kc5tja> That's it.
21:39:21 <kc5tja> Get oil hot, and it will combust.
21:39:32 <teehee> kc5tja: and so what about a diesel wankel? :)
21:39:58 <kc5tja> teehee: It's theoretically quite possible, but the seal metallurgy to make it a reality isn't quite production grade yet.
21:40:15 <teehee> eh.
21:40:17 <teehee> mmkay
21:40:27 <kc5tja> If it ever will be.  20:1 compression ratios puts a lot of stress on edge-wise seals.
21:40:34 <teehee> I hope the keyboard signals reach to my bed ...
21:40:46 <teehee> test
21:40:48 <teehee> yay! :)
21:40:50 <kc5tja> failed.
21:40:51 <kc5tja> :)
21:40:56 <teehee> :)
21:41:03 <kc5tja> I'll give you a 52 for effort though.
21:41:28 <teehee> but
21:41:29 <teehee> it worked
21:41:30 <teehee> lol
21:41:37 <teehee> or are you talking about the diesel wankel?
21:42:27 <kc5tja> I was making a joke.
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21:42:40 <kc5tja> Rolls Royce made a diesel rotary engine once.
21:42:42 <kc5tja> It did work.
21:42:47 <teehee> yay
21:42:48 <kc5tja> But it was never commercially viable.
21:42:52 <teehee> boo
21:43:03 <kc5tja> It required *two* rotors to get the 20:1 compression ratios needed though.
21:43:28 <kc5tja> I don't know what kinds of efficiencies it got though.
21:43:36 <kc5tja> But yet, Diesel engines are *GREAT* engines.
21:43:56 <kc5tja> Very simple engines -- no ignition problems, very clean exhaust if well tuned, etc.
21:44:05 <kc5tja> However, you do have to feed them with the right fuels though.
21:44:11 <kc5tja> Diesel fuel is an oil.
21:44:14 <kc5tja> Literally, it's vegetable oil.
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21:44:27 <kc5tja> Only it's "trans-esterized" so that it flows better in colder climates.
21:44:58 <teehee> kc5tja: so, if I have a diesel truck, and I run out of gas, and can't afford more, I could pour veggie oil in it and it'll last me until I get to the gas station? :)
21:44:59 <kc5tja> But it is possible, if you live in a warmer climate like southern California or Arizona, to just dump straight vegetable oil into the gas tank of a Mercedes Benz diesel car, and it WILL run.
21:45:16 <kc5tja> That depends on how far away the gas station is, obviously.
21:45:36 <teehee> 1 mile? :)
21:45:40 <kc5tja> Oh, and by the way, do the price comparison: pump diesel and vegetable oil are both in the same price range.
21:45:45 <teehee> I'm amazed at how diesels stop though
21:46:00 <kc5tja> Just cut off the fuel.  It'll stop just fine.
21:46:13 <teehee> my car, when turning off the ignition, goes eeeaaaoooouuu....
21:46:20 <teehee> diesels just stop
21:46:26 <teehee> its funny
21:46:38 <kc5tja> A diesel engine's primary problem is its weight.
21:47:00 <kc5tja> Because it has to handle 20:1 to 25:1 compression ratios, it has to be built very, very beefy.
21:47:34 <kc5tja> That takes a lot of metal, and that is why cars based on diesels are said to accelerate slowly, and aren't as "efficient" (which is total bunk, by the way) as gas engines.
21:48:00 <kc5tja> What makes gasoline engines "ideal" is that they are relatively light weight.
21:49:50 <kc5tja> btw, a gas engine will "just stop" as well if you yank its fuel supply too.
21:50:35 <teehee> none of the cars I've ever been in that wasn't diesel "just stopped"
21:50:53 <teehee> it always did a little bit of going from idle to 0 sounde
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21:55:31 <teehee> ;)
21:57:59 <Herkamire> I've read a bit on converting deisel cars to vegie oil
21:58:31 <Herkamire> the only thing you have to do is make it so the vegie oil is in liquid form when you need it
21:59:00 <Herkamire> or, warm enough that it isn't too viscus to go down the fuel lines
21:59:05 <kc5tja> Oil doesn't solidify except at very cold temperatures.
21:59:12 <kc5tja> But it does become quite groggy when it's cold.
21:59:45 <kc5tja> http://auto.howstuffworks.com/diesel.htm  <--  for teehee
22:00:29 <Herkamire> I've seen various solutions to this, including thicker fuel lines (so it can pass through with normal resistance even though it's thicker) heating coils on the fuel lines, and having a switch between vegie oil and deisel feul
22:00:54 <Herkamire> so you just have to remember to switch to deisel before you turn the car off, so the fuel lines will be filled with deisil when the car is cold
22:03:46 <kc5tja> yup.
22:03:57 <kc5tja> Diesel's "version 0" engine actually ran on coal dust.
22:04:13 <kc5tja> But that proved unreliable, so version 1 (almost unmodified, I might add) ran on peanut oil.
22:04:28 <kc5tja> Diesel's original vision, in fact, was to use peanut oil directly as the fuel.
22:21:09 <kc5tja> Well, I think I'm going to get to bed.
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22:36:56 <teehee> I440r: awake? ;)
22:40:10 <I440r> not for long
22:40:13 <I440r> :)
22:40:15 <I440r> whussup
22:40:28 <teehee> well, you know .. lol
22:40:31 <I440r> lol
22:40:38 <I440r> im tellin ya,its very easy
22:40:42 <I440r> just look at the examples
22:40:44 <I440r> :)
22:40:45 <Sonarman> ??
22:42:54 <Sonarman> teehee: what was that about?
22:43:10 <teehee> isforth bad words
22:43:37 <teehee> Sonarman: such as fuck, shit, create_window, hell, set_color, and damnit
22:44:06 <Sonarman> wow, i'd forgotten about some of those
22:44:19 <teehee> ;)
22:44:33 <Sonarman> what are you making?
22:44:54 <teehee> gui demo
22:44:55 <teehee> ;)
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