00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.06.08 00:18:03 --- quit: Herkamire ("reconfiguring router") 00:19:26 --- join: Herkamire (stjohns@h000094d30ba2.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 00:59:01 --- quit: SDO (Ping timeout: 14400 seconds) 01:04:50 --- join: teehee (~arke@melrose-251-251.flexabit.net) joined #forth 01:22:19 --- quit: Herkamire ("off with her head!") 01:25:56 --- quit: teehee ("Lost terminal") 01:27:30 --- join: teehee (~arke@melrose-251-251.flexabit.net) joined #forth 01:27:58 --- join: Topaz (~top@exten-halls-131.soton.ac.uk) joined #forth 01:28:06 hello Topaz 01:28:10 hi 01:28:28 you a forther? :) 01:28:37 well, i like to think so ;) 01:28:40 ./dldd 01:28:42 though i'm still a total newbie 01:29:03 , 01:29:10 hmm, this 16-bit FORTH on an 8-bit proc isn't exactly efficient 01:29:29 i'm wondering whether i can achieve any optimisation by keeping some of the TOS in registers 01:29:44 (since this 8-bit proc is graced with 32 of the things ;) 01:34:39 you probably want to keep only one TOS in register 01:38:01 i just entertained the thought of my STC compiling routine using a number of registers as TOS, and keeping track of which register is actually TOS when it compiles things in 01:38:13 so that simple words could be inlined accordingly 01:38:25 (though it'd need to be restored to some sane state before invoking any other words) 01:52:29 --- join: Serg (~z@212.34.52.140) joined #forth 01:54:29 i wonder if it'd be possible to make most words only push/pop 8-bit things onto the stack 01:55:12 reserving 16-bit accesses for stuff which needs them (memory addresses) 01:56:06 make another stack for bytes ;)) 01:56:22 hmm 01:56:32 i had a wordset to do so: define custom stacks 02:04:50 it stored object size, so you can have stacks of XY pairs or even of matrices, and do operations on them 02:17:42 --- join: arke_ (~Chris@wbar8.lax1-4-11-100-108.dsl-verizon.net) joined #forth 02:17:46 --- quit: arke (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 02:19:55 so SLANTMAT MATX PUSH was pushing matrix SLANTMAT into stack MATX 02:20:14 taking number of bytes to push from MATX header 02:20:57 MMUL could multiply 2 matrices on top of MATX, leaving main stack clear 02:21:38 actually, it was written for coordinates only ;)) 02:21:42 XY 02:22:29 well, issue with this is code size and speed, really 02:22:42 just 16-bit operations with an 8-bit proc are very inefficient 02:23:07 size and speed -> ASM 02:24:38 well, i usually do code in ASM 02:24:46 just FORTH seems so much more exciting ;) 02:24:59 i think i'll just make my colon compiler perform lots of random optimisation 02:25:45 : C-> ( c stack ) swap over @ c! 1+! ; 02:25:58 variable CSTACK 02:26:05 32 ALLOT 02:26:18 10 CSTACK C-> 02:26:48 my FORTH currently contains a built-in assembler, heh 02:26:50 tis a bit weird 02:27:29 so code your inner loop in asm 02:29:02 i'll relegate performance a minute... how does 'IF/THEN' work? heh 02:30:51 does it push the current address onto the stack or something, such that THEN knows where to go back to and alter the branch? 02:31:43 wait' i;ll see DECOMP 02:32:31 'see' in gforth produces some typically concise yet meaningless FORTH ;) 02:33:44 Addr Call Word Operands . . . 02:33:44 --------------------------------------- 02:33:44 $496C: 0B71 ?BRANCH $497A 02:33:44 $4970: 0DDA LIT 1 (1) 02:33:44 $4974: 3FB7 . 02:33:44 $4976: 0B5F BRANCH $4980 02:33:46 $497A: 0DDA LIT 2 (2) 02:33:48 $497E: 3FB7 . 02:33:50 $4980: 0B4C EXIT 02:33:52 - Ok 02:34:50 hmm 02:35:06 --- quit: Klaw (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 02:35:06 --- quit: lalalim_ (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 02:35:06 --- quit: Fractal (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 02:35:06 --- quit: mur (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 02:35:06 --- quit: futhin (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 02:36:06 u see, no stack use 02:36:17 ?BRANCH turned up in UNTIL too, but i wrote UNTIL in python instead of FORTH ;) 02:36:35 (what does ?BRANCH do?) 02:36:44 in GP-FORTH ;)) 02:37:58 --- quit: ChanServ (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 02:37:58 --- quit: teehee (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 02:38:01 --- quit: slava (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 02:38:01 --- quit: Robert (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 02:38:01 --- quit: Serg (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 02:38:01 --- quit: kuvos (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 02:38:03 --- quit: Topaz (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 02:38:04 --- quit: cmeme (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 02:38:06 --- quit: onetom (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 02:38:06 --- quit: fridge (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 02:38:06 --- quit: htp123 (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 02:38:06 --- quit: arke_ (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 02:38:07 --- quit: skylan (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 02:38:38 --- join: futhin (thin@bespin.org) joined #forth 02:38:38 --- join: Klaw (chuck@ip68-225-243-23.oc.oc.cox.net) joined #forth 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(Connection reset by peer)) 06:41:46 --- quit: Serg () 07:16:41 --- join: I440r (~FooBlah@168-215-246-243.gen.twtelecom.net) joined #forth 07:23:01 I440r: needs more isforth 07:23:57 yes 07:23:58 i do 07:24:05 someone write some :) 07:32:59 you write some 07:33:03 threadsafe kernel plz 07:33:09 async i/o plz 07:35:17 how come i440r is writing everything and everyone else is just a greedy bastard? 07:35:34 whats with this stupid "write your own forth" culture? 07:35:37 fuck it! 07:35:38 :P 07:36:04 HUH 07:36:15 i don't have time to write my own forth 07:36:19 Its a test of manhood 07:36:31 hoho 07:36:43 i am too busy writing my own not forth 07:37:02 all those who have written their own forth please join #forth_elitists 07:39:32 plus 07:39:39 i doubt i could do much better than isforth 07:42:29 futhin lol 07:42:43 erm /me ponders joining #forth_elitists 07:43:02 Heh 07:43:14 hey I440r can i port it to ppc 07:43:19 Who in here has NOT written their own Forth (except futhin) ? 07:43:26 me 07:43:31 Oh. 07:43:49 im writing a language that is somewhat different 07:43:58 Just call it Forth. 07:44:42 it looks like lisp and forth kindof 07:44:44 warpzero, i dont know.... CAN you ? 07:44:49 but it doesn't really behave like either 07:44:55 I440r: probably yeah if i took the time 07:45:40 warp - go for it 07:45:55 i dont have time 07:46:14 :( 07:46:19 What's keeping you busy? 07:46:24 my language 07:48:55 school 07:48:58 webdesgin 07:49:00 etc. 07:49:19 Hehe 07:49:41 my language is pretty cool though 07:49:58 I got rid of the webdesign issue, all is explained in a rant that can be found on my site. 07:50:02 Nice. :) 07:50:27 well i do for other people mainly 07:50:53 Ah, need the cash? 07:51:24 yeah but i don't get paid :( 07:51:29 Heh 07:51:38 Why do you do it then? 07:51:41 shit i am going to be late 07:51:47 Well, see you later then 07:53:34 i have to sync my 'top 08:51:10 sounds painfull 08:51:47 --- quit: onetom (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 08:53:15 --- join: onetom (~tom@novtan.bio.u-szeged.hu) joined #forth 09:23:40 --- join: Herkamire (stjohns@h000094d30ba2.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 10:36:32 --- join: Sonarman (~matt@adsl-64-160-164-105.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 10:39:03 webdesign can be fun 10:39:15 you get to be overly pretentious, and play with css ;) 10:39:22 If you're really bored... 10:39:40 I prefer to actually make some contents, but I'm usually too lazy for that, too. 10:40:53 http://www.soton.ac.uk/~jb1403/ was my last random concoction, although it's fairly content-free 10:41:24 doesn't look right on anything with greater than 1024x768 res, but that's another matter ;) 10:43:20 Cute. 10:44:20 heh i seem to have fucked up win32forth 10:44:31 code lit 0x0 --> unbug<- interpret error! 10:44:31 f<- interpret error! 10:44:31 f<- interpret error! 10:44:31 f<- interpret error! 10:44:31 for<- interpret error! 10:45:48 but i seem to have succesfully made a draw.text word for that bmp code 10:46:14 kinda primitive (drawing the letters "by hand"), but it works 10:58:18 "confusing people since 1985" :) heh 10:59:51 qFox: what do you mean by hand? 11:00:06 : draw.l.u ( x y -- width ) 11:00:06 2dup 1 4 1 8 +draw.line 11:00:06 2dup 2 3 3 3 +draw.line 11:00:06 2dup 5 3 5 8 +draw.line 11:00:06 4 4 +draw.pix 11:00:08 5 11:00:10 ; 11:00:19 by hand 11:00:27 making each letter out of lines? 11:00:29 Herkamire: apparently i use the word 'random' too often ;) 11:00:41 Herkamire> well, where applicable 11:01:15 Topaz: it is the header... 11:02:38 its also a lot of work to code, very boring. only have lowercase right now :p 11:03:48 qFox: it's probably easier to copy a bitmap font. 11:04:02 i've not come this far to throw it all away now :p 11:04:19 10 50 s" guesswhaticando" draw.text 11:05:28 * Herkamire misses his anaglyph glasses 11:05:34 your what? 11:05:49 red/blue 3D glasses 11:05:53 ah those 11:06:18 the line-drawing stuff I did in forth was for anaglyphs 11:06:32 line drawing is easy :) 11:06:49 i shud do a text based 3d engine and port my wmdots to isforth lol 11:06:55 easy and fun! you too can become a line drawer in 6 easy steps! 11:07:00 well i finally got it working properly (independent of the order of coordinates) 11:07:01 :) 11:07:34 its probably coded bad, but whatever. 11:08:17 qFox: did you use that cool method with ints and no multiplying or dividing? 11:08:27 of course not 11:08:28 :p 11:08:37 bummer 11:08:54 it's very cool, and simple 11:09:00 its uhm... well not pastable here ;) 11:09:29 ahwell, i can (and probably will, or not its not like its speed matters much) always change it 11:12:41 --- join: SDO (~SDO@co-trinidad1a-156.clspco.adelphia.net) joined #forth 11:15:49 --- join: Serg[GPRS] (~z@193.201.231.126) joined #forth 11:18:16 hmm, i'm still not sure how IF/THEN work... does THEN look backwards for the corresponding IF to code the branch into? 11:18:38 no 11:18:41 if is immediate 11:18:47 it compiles a branch to address 0 11:18:51 aha 11:18:57 but pushes the address of the ZERO onto the stack 11:19:16 bingo 11:19:16 THEN just back patches the IF to be a branch to where HERE now points 11:19:16 cheers 11:19:27 :) 11:19:49 actually, i suppose it DOES look backwards at the if :) 11:20:16 thats how do/loop/begin/while/repeat/again etc all work 11:20:18 though via the stack... cool 11:20:27 this is forth :P 11:21:15 if you look at isforth.clss.net the help there might help you somewhat 11:21:27 its not complete tho, its a work in progress 11:21:42 here's my routines: http://herkamire.com/jason/drawlines.fs 11:23:26 that code looks kinda good actually :) 11:23:41 thanks :) 11:23:55 I wrote it a long time ago... 11:24:10 I wasn't sure it would be good. but it still works, and it looks clean so I posted it 11:24:13 i wrote my line drawing routines for forth YEARS ago 11:24:17 and they are in assembler 11:24:49 my vga mode 12 line drawing routines are very nice :) 11:24:57 vga mode 12 is weird :P 11:25:02 whatever font that page is using, is showing a really odd exclamation mark :p 11:25:03 I didn't think I could get fast blits anyway, so I just wrote nice readable code 11:25:49 http://herkamire.com/jason/style.css 11:25:53 change it if you like 11:25:55 at least you didnt use a recursive mid point algorithm :) 11:25:56 helvetica 11:26:11 but... it looks like it still uses the default fixed width font 11:26:31 recursive mid point? 11:26:34 that sounds scary 11:26:56 eye candy suxx, 'Elite' rulez ;) 11:27:23 herk can you guess how it works ??? :) 11:28:47 I440r: oh, god. I can 11:28:52 :) 11:28:55 exactly lol 11:29:16 I440r: calculate the midpoint. draw it, then pass it to two recursions (if there's any space on either side) 11:29:36 lol 11:29:42 yup :) 11:29:55 as far as I can tell, my algorithm is as acturate as possible 11:30:14 (without aa) 11:30:14 breshenhams algorithm is the best i think 11:30:19 is that what I use? 11:30:31 err i didnt study your code enough to see 11:31:26 for a horizontal line: each pixel you add the height to a variable. when that variable exceeds the width of the line, you move a pixel down/up. 11:31:31 http://galileo.phys.virginia.edu/classes/551.jvn.fall01/Midpt.f 11:31:52 that sounds like breshenham 11:31:58 Serg[GPRS]: I don't like using ugly toolkits like tcl/tk -- I'm not sure if that is the same as liking eye candy though 11:32:43 Herkamire: can you boot herkforth directly from OF ? 11:32:52 I think I've asked you before, can't remember the answer 11:33:08 fridge: not yet 11:33:15 well, here's the code i used... http://members.home.nl/qfox/coding/forth/bmp.f 11:34:21 fridge: the OF text input/output sucks. 11:34:31 it's very slow, and the text is tiny 11:35:26 I just recently got some simple example code that can read/write OF text 11:36:03 I'm trying to decide if I should use that, or if I should go graphical first 11:39:08 the console text is rather small 11:41:17 also, I haven't checked to see if it supports color 11:43:56 * Topaz notices that his IF doesn't actually check any conditions, just jumps by default ;) 11:44:41 ? 11:44:49 --- quit: Serg[GPRS] (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 11:45:17 IF should jump only if TOS is zero 11:45:30 yeah 11:45:41 just atm it jumps anyway, because i forgot to add a check ;) 11:45:57 oh :) 11:46:07 I thought you were looking at someone elses forh 11:46:09 forth 12:30:59 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 12:32:07 --- nick: SDO -> SDO_ 12:34:24 --- nick: SDO_ -> SDO 12:41:58 ping warpzero 12:42:07 warpzero, you said above your language is like forth and lisp. can you elaborate? 12:43:18 --- quit: SDO ("Vision[0.9.6-0203]: i've been blurred!") 12:43:26 --- join: SDO (~SDO@co-trinidad1a-156.clspco.adelphia.net) joined #forth 13:05:31 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 13:06:19 yay, my if/then works 13:19:31 --- join: arke__ (~Chris@wbar8.lax1-4-11-100-108.dsl-verizon.net) joined #forth 13:19:34 --- quit: arke_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 13:20:06 --- join: proteusguy (proteusguy@216-99-240-45-atl-01.cvx.algx.net) joined #forth 13:32:30 --- join: lalalim (~lalalim@pD95EA8D0.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 13:42:12 you mean "if/else/then" yes ? 13:42:21 hi I440r 13:43:13 I440r: I don't use else alot, most of the time I just do if stuff exit then other-stuff 13:43:29 I440r: Which makes me annoyed because the word "exit" is so long ;) 13:43:39 But hi, slava + I440r 13:43:46 * Robert is reading about Forth again. 13:43:48 lol 13:43:51 I don't have else 13:44:02 Oh, and hi Herkamire. :) 13:44:07 i like my ?: word i invented for isforth 13:44:11 hi Robert :) 13:44:16 blah blah ?: true-word false-word blah blah 13:44:18 Was reading a LONG rant by orangetide on his page 13:44:40 I440r: Hey, that makes you look like a C spy. 13:44:54 lol i know 13:44:55 I440r: But I guess that's a good idea :) 13:45:01 Robert: I use ; as exit 13:45:07 * Robert adds it to the to-steal list. 13:45:16 Herkamire: Yes, so do I. That's why I miss it. 13:45:44 ; does more than exit, it switches state too 13:46:03 I make people switch state manually >:) 13:46:11 or how about: : ;then postpone exit postpone then ; 13:46:15 ] : stuff if bleh ; then blah ; [ 13:46:43 erm postpone is a blacklisted word for me 13:46:49 grrr 13:46:50 :) 13:46:51 Yes, I was thinking about something like that... But I haven't bothered to even test the Forth system I wrote for the AVR 13:46:58 I440r: Yes, we know that by now. :D 13:47:09 It's so long, hehe 13:47:12 well, however you write that. I don't have postpone in my fortheither 13:47:37 compile and [compile] do the job right :P 13:47:40 in herkforth it'd be: : ;then ,; ,then ; 13:48:18 Are ,; and ,then defined, or is the comma a magic symbol? 13:48:22 oops. in herkforth it'd be: : ,;then ,; ,then ; 13:48:33 both... 13:49:43 the only thing magic about , is that if you type the word without the , in green (compile mode) it will execute the , version 13:49:59 in practice it looks like an immediate when you don't put the comma on 13:50:41 --- quit: lalalim_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 13:50:42 there can also be a word without the comma, that will be used in execute mode 13:51:08 example: : ,dup $95edfffc w, ; 13:52:03 when you enter: : square dup * ; the editor actually inserts this into the source: ] : square [ ,dup ] * [ ,; 13:52:22 So it's basically like immediate words? 13:52:31 the editor does the reverse translation to display the code, so you see: : square dup * ; 13:52:55 for just using them they have the convenience of immediate words. 13:53:17 but for compiling calls to them they are 100x better 13:54:03 you don't need [compile] you just enter a call to the compiler word 13:54:20 as in my example above: : ,;then ,; ,then ; 13:54:22 Yeah. But didn't you say your Forth used colors? 13:54:40 yes, it displays in color 13:54:57 Can't you edit in color? 13:55:00 when I go to true color, I'm going to make the "immediates" show in a slightly different shade of green 13:55:04 yes 13:55:11 it normally displays in color 13:55:35 I just wondered why you didn't just make people change color if they wanted to compile the immediate word. 13:55:39 I'm typing ascii versions of source in here because this is a text chat 13:55:43 --- join: dufus (ed@adsl-64-168-28-146.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 13:55:59 Hi dufus 13:56:11 Robert: I did. that's the way my forth was originally. but I found it tiresome to type, and ugly 13:56:13 hi ed - this is mark here :) 13:56:22 Herkamire: OK. :) 13:56:30 A friend of yours? 13:56:44 hi dufus :) 13:56:46 Hi MQRK 13:56:52 HI MARK 13:57:02 he is working on the same project i am working on at work :) 13:57:09 Gues dufus wasn't such a bad name afterall 13:57:10 Robert: another advantage of this is that it makes it easy to do optomizations, like dup above 13:57:22 lol 13:57:33 well if the shoe fits ???? 13:57:34 lol 13:57:35 * I440r ducks 13:57:39 and to make dup available at runtime (at runtime there is no translation, so "dup" would be a word-not-found error unless you actually define dup) 13:57:48 just do: : dup dup ; 13:57:54 colorforth does this btw 13:58:06 Hm, neat. 13:58:24 * Robert adds a few more things to the to-steal list. 13:58:28 the compiler actually sees: : dup [ ,dup ,; 13:58:35 hehe :) :) 13:58:40 i would do ' dup alias dup first 13:58:49 the alias takes up no space other than header 13:59:03 I440r: what would that do? 13:59:15 it would cretae a new header for dup 13:59:26 what for? 13:59:31 you dont usually have an alias of the same name but there are places where i do that 13:59:41 : dup dup ; <-- this takes up code space 13:59:44 I have two different words: ,dup and dup 14:00:01 ' dup alias dup <-- this only takes up head space 14:00:03 it must take up code space 14:00:04 oh 14:00:17 there must be code for dup that can be called at runtime. 14:00:17 why ? 14:00:38 so when you type dup on the command line it has a word to call 14:00:38 why do : xxx xxx ; ? 14:00:46 oh 14:00:57 because I have a word ,dup which compiles the dup instruction 14:00:57 and why cant they just type "dup" ? 14:01:02 I must also have a word with that instruction in it 14:01:08 then it should be 14:01:11 : dup ,dup ; 14:01:17 you could type dup if fup was defined. 14:01:31 no, it's : dup [ ,dup ] ; 14:01:36 ok 14:01:40 no immediates 14:02:01 ouch 14:02:05 why no immediates ? 14:02:33 what I was just explaining to Robert is that my editor allows you to type a word xxx in green (compile mode) and it will automatically replace it with [ ,xxx ] 14:02:43 oh 14:02:47 got ya 14:02:56 so you type : dup dup ; and the editor actually puts this in the source: : dup [ ,dup ,; 14:03:08 see.. its this whole color thing, i just dont see it as a plus 14:03:49 this method works fine without color 14:03:52 its added confusion factor, you have to learn what color means what 14:04:19 I440r: yeah, or you can turn it off 14:04:29 there's only 4 colors 14:04:41 5 14:04:41 i cant get my head arround colorforth AT ALL lol 14:05:09 I think define, compile and execute colors are pretty obvious 14:05:26 anyway it's irrelivant 14:05:35 but what do they give you that you dont already have ? 14:05:46 my source can easily be displayed without colors 14:05:59 but what do the colors give you ? 14:06:06 this is the part i dont get 14:06:11 I prefer colors, because I can more easily see what's going on. 14:06:23 maybe it's my dislexia, I don't know. 14:06:27 hehe 14:06:42 I recognize the colors long before the symbols 14:07:17 rest asured that it will be very easy (and documented) to switch it to displaying in standard ascii form 14:07:38 k 14:07:51 I already have the code do display in ascii 14:08:25 I think it needs one tweak, as the ascii output is now only used to export to files. 14:08:30 first Herkamire's doing color, next thing he's planning is using the APL character set :) 14:08:45 what's APL? 14:08:45 *scary* 14:09:07 Herkamire, programming language focused on arrays and matrices and such, has its own charset 14:09:25 does it start: 0123456789abcdef ? 14:10:32 I've toyed with the idea of having my own charset 14:10:39 but then I'd have to deal with having multiple charsets 14:10:47 and I'm not going to be ready for that for a long time 14:10:54 unicode? 14:13:58 I hate unicode 14:14:13 I'll make something better, and make something to translate to/from unicode 14:15:36 I don't want to have characters that are more than 8 bits long unless there are actually more that 256 different characters in the document 14:17:26 heh, you could have the equivalent of a palette for text files :) 14:17:52 this complicates things just to save a few bytes of memory 14:21:50 it's not bytes of memory I'm worried about. 14:22:04 it's dealing with the complexity of variable length characters 14:22:31 and the posibility of having an invalid string 14:22:41 I don't think it should be possible to have an invalid string 14:23:04 var length characters? 14:23:07 a string should be a series of bytes, with some context to give them meaning 14:23:13 basic unicode is 16 bit chars 14:23:30 no 14:23:34 maybe you mean utf8? 14:24:24 there is no @#(*@&$# way you can get all the characters supported by unicode into 16 bits 14:24:32 full unicode is 21 bits 14:24:34 there are some languages that themselves don't even fit in 16 bits 14:24:52 you can be like java and support the 16-bit subset only. most common stuff fits in it 14:25:23 why would I want to use 16 bit chars when 99.9% of my stuff fits in 7 bits? 14:25:44 what if some guy wants to write comments in greek in his herkforth source? 14:26:15 ... 14:26:38 I do plan on making other characters available 14:26:43 unicode is not the only way to do that. 14:26:56 any other way is just as complex and unicode is the standard 14:27:13 if I'm going to go to all the trouble of making other characters available, then I hope I would do something that would make ANY character available. 14:27:34 not just a bigger pool that's going to leave you in the same situation (having most, but not all the characters you want) 14:27:49 don't be such a pessimist 14:28:04 I'm going to make one that is less complex 14:28:26 just because it's a standard, doesn't mean it's the best way to do things. 14:28:39 take xml for example... 14:29:09 xml is suited for certain tasks. 14:29:20 xml can do some things 14:29:33 but it's unnessesarily complex in it's implementation 14:29:40