00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.06.04 00:10:13 --- quit: arke (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 01:20:50 --- quit: Herkamire ("bed") 04:05:21 --- join: qFox (C00K13S@cp12172-a.roose1.nb.home.nl) joined #forth 04:08:57 --- join: crc (crc@0-1pool176-22.nas6.philadelphia1.pa.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 05:14:34 zz 05:15:14 Serg: Are you tired? 05:15:33 * crc is tired and will go to bed soon 05:16:00 * crc sighs. This channel is always quiet during the mornings 05:17:54 no, it was just to test if i'm still online or fell off 05:18:19 It would appear that you are still online 05:19:17 i just digged lotsa trash comp hardware - 386's, 14"s, dotmatrix printer.. 05:19:34 Very cool 05:19:55 * crc has a 386 that can still run RetroForth/Native :-) 05:20:18 those are torn apiece and all lack power units 05:20:38 Still useful for parts 05:37:31 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 06:06:09 * crc is excited. I finally deciphered the entire PE executable format used by Windows! 06:10:09 Awesome. 06:11:55 Is there documentation? What were you working from? 06:13:05 Studying hex dumps 06:13:40 Sounds like fun :) 06:14:33 Not at all 06:15:11 But I *did* comment it somewhat and it's at http://www.retroforth.org/peframework.asm 06:15:40 I'll (hopefully) be able to make it more flexible soon 06:16:28 Then when I start on the RetroForth 7 metacompiler, I'll be able to do self hosting under Linux, Windows, and any other OSes I port it to. 06:16:52 * crc curses MS for not using ELF\ 06:16:58 So...just out of curiosity, did you try looking at the "Microsoft Portable Executable and Common Object File Format Specification"? 06:17:21 Briefly. It's where I got some help for naming the parts 06:17:36 But their docs suck 06:17:51 So you figured it would be quicker to figure it out yourself. 06:18:00 yup 06:18:13 It's not perfect, but it *does* work 06:18:45 I'm tempted to write an ELF driver for Windows so I can just use a sane file format :-) 06:19:44 Or maybe a flat binary loader would be better... 06:21:30 ELF isn't bad. 06:21:42 You're right 06:21:49 ELF is mostly sane 06:21:54 Though some of the stuff in the PPC platform ABI is just dumb. 06:22:11 I've never coded for PPC 06:22:46 Well, not directly. I have access to herkforth over ssh, and that's cool, but it is still ELF format 06:23:05 The Mach-O format is said to be confusing 06:23:06 My favorite is the one that goes "in order to make virtual memory paging easier, all sections must be aligned in the file at page boundaries." 06:23:18 WTF??? 06:24:06 No, that makes sense. The dumb bit is next: "but even though the page size on ALL current PPC implementations is 4KB, we're going to require you to use 64KB alignment, in case future implementations use a bigger page size." 06:24:16 WTF??? 06:24:20 yup 06:24:47 I only want/need one segment, and I need it RWX. Period. 06:25:05 Yeah, it's mostly not a problem. 06:25:19 I was just trying to get the ELF loader to lay out all my stuff in memory, with blank spaces in between. 06:25:42 I miss the old days of DOS :-) 06:26:00 Yeah. I liked my 286/10MHz. 06:26:19 I have an original IBM PC and a nice 386 06:26:39 I mostly use a laptop these days though 06:27:22 I'll get a Kestrel when kc5tja actually starts producing them 06:27:33 And then I'll run RetroForth on it and be happy 06:27:39 :) yup 06:28:16 Actually, I'll eventually make my own Forth computer, but I have no time or money to pursue that at the moment 06:29:18 I've been thinking about that myself. 06:29:36 I really want something that's physically a bit smaller than it sounds like the Kestrel will be. 06:29:52 Me too 06:29:55 And a less complex CPU 06:30:47 I want a 3x5" motherboard (smaller would be good too) 06:30:58 All solid state stuff onboard 06:31:17 VGA (320x200 or 640x480) graphics 06:31:23 Well, I don't have a problem with the CPU. 06:31:27 and a PS/2 keyboard 06:31:43 Though you can certainly get by with a smaller instruction set. 06:31:56 I know. And I *want* a smaller instruction set 06:33:16 I'm still working on the exact instruction set though 06:35:04 A 5-bit instruction set seems reasonable. 06:35:23 I worked out a 4-bit one a few weeks ago, just for fun. 06:35:39 what were the instructions? 06:35:53 I was wondering about the possibility of making a CPU with no adders, using LFSRs instead. 06:36:00 Hmm...let me find it. 06:37:07 BRANCH ?BRANCH CALL ; 06:37:13 LIT @ ! OVER 06:37:17 DUP DROP >R R> 06:37:23 AND XOR 2* 2/ 06:38:13 Looks good to me 06:38:20 : + over over and 2* >r xor r> ?b dup ; 06:38:22 :) 06:38:34 What is ?b 06:38:44 oops. 06:38:55 ?recurse. 06:39:14 What is the definition of ?recurse ? 06:39:15 branch back to the beginning of the word if top of stack is non-zero 06:39:23 I see 06:39:53 How do you return from a CALL ? 06:40:04 ; 06:40:11 should probably just call it RETURN 06:40:14 Oops, I missed that 06:40:19 I'd call it RETURN 06:40:39 Yeah. I was trying to write it all down on a 3x5 card. 06:41:05 I think it would be fun as a 16-bit machine with 4 opcodes per word. 06:41:19 16-deep circular stacks a la Chuck. 06:41:22 etc. 06:41:45 * crc could see a 64 bit cpu using a tiny instruction set 06:42:04 It'd be overkill, but the code sizes would be minimal :-) 06:42:09 yeah. 06:42:37 The problem with going to wider memory is that you can only branch to a memory address. 06:42:56 So eventually you start wasting space with padding for alignment. 06:43:03 True 06:43:21 But I have no idea where the breakpoint falls. 06:43:34 Did you write an emulator for this? 06:43:55 Nope. I've been working on getting my forth to boot. 06:44:12 What is your Forth? 06:44:22 I haven't released it. 06:44:34 :-) 06:44:46 any idea why it won't boot? 06:44:51 I was into colored forth for a while, but Herkamire seems to be running with that pretty well, so I'm doing a punctuated one. 06:44:59 Oh, it will boot now. 06:45:00 PPC? 06:45:02 yup. 06:45:14 Got it working yesterday afternoon. 06:45:16 * crc needs to get a PPC computer system 06:45:26 awesome 06:45:38 I was just being lazy about writing the Open Firmware interface glue, because I thought it was going to be difficult to debug. 06:45:54 I just started using herkforth, and that's pretty cool (the first colored forth I've ever actually used!) 06:46:23 But as it turned out, I wrote the code, and then went to bed, and Herkamire had it fixed by the time I got back to my computer :) 06:46:35 Yeah, herkforth is a neat little system. 06:46:35 Really cool 06:47:03 He added a couple of features to the editor so I could make better use of it :-) 06:47:17 Nice. :-) 06:47:44 I think it'll be easier once I don't have to use SSH over dialup 06:48:08 Probably. 06:48:20 Are you getting a PPC? 06:48:35 * crc wants a nice PPC system (*cough* PowerBook G4 *cough*) 06:48:38 one day 06:48:45 * tathi too 06:48:49 I have /no/ spare money at the moment 06:49:17 I'm pretty happy with my dual-G4 PowerMac, but it's not what you'd call portable. :-) 06:49:24 But when I get out of debt and as soon as I can afford it, I'll be getting a PowerBook 06:49:31 I'm 100% hooked on laptops 06:49:37 Well, good luck with that then. 06:49:42 Thank you 06:50:21 * tathi should go now. 06:50:25 Me too 06:50:28 Have some yardwork I want to get done before lunch. 06:50:37 I need to go to bed. 06:50:40 hmm, i dislike Mac's 06:50:42 * crc works overnight 06:50:46 Ah. 06:50:48 serg: why? 06:50:58 Well, laters then. 06:51:02 ttyl 06:51:04 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 06:51:22 it's OS (pre-X) seemed extemely counter-intuitive for me 06:51:45 I am not fond of the classic MacOS, but there's one program (TinderBox) that makes me want a Mac 06:51:49 Badly 06:52:04 lack of text console was a mojo killer (maybe serached bad ?) 06:52:39 the greatest stumble is what menu is at top edge of screen, not of a window 06:52:55 That's just a matter of prefence 06:53:33 and, it's weird hardw i-face 06:53:38 why not RS-232 ???? 06:53:54 RS-232 is considered out of date :-( 06:54:02 i mean old models 06:54:11 USB now ;) 06:54:19 They wanted to be... 06:54:22 "Different" 06:54:44 anyway, i can plug modem or palm-pilot to PC of 1990 year, but not to Maqc 06:54:58 True 06:55:09 But why would you want to? 06:55:42 coz my poor friend needed inet ;)) 06:56:00 and asked me to do so (she got LC III as gift) 06:56:10 Ok, that makes sense then 06:56:10 reelly trash gift 06:57:09 OTOH, they were good for what people did with them, /at that time/ 06:57:41 maybe... 06:58:45 They did. The inet wasn't big in the early 90's and MacOS had the most consistant interface, which was a big Plus 06:59:21 Windows didn't become usable until Windows For Workgroups 3.11, several years _after_ the Mac was introduced 06:59:27 i wish i'd start on UNix... 06:59:43 What OS do you use? 07:00:00 WinXP, Linux (knoppix) 07:00:26 +DOS, writing retro-style games 07:00:31 DOS is cool 07:00:48 * crc misses DOS more and more as I delve deeper into modern OSes 07:01:48 cmdline is cool ;) 07:02:06 yes it is 07:02:17 i heavily dislike the entire idea of GFX-driven OS 07:02:23 Me too 07:02:45 I have a totally text mode Linux system that I use most of the time 07:03:13 RetroForth/Native uses VGA mode, but it's still all text with a couple (lines, rects) of drawing words 07:03:38 I don't want windows, or pull down menus, or a desktop 07:03:42 Or a mouse! 07:04:19 one my g/f said: 07:04:44 why folks need mice if they can work the normal way ? 07:05:10 i jumped from sofa asking is she a Unix geek ;)) 07:05:22 and guess, what was the answer ? 07:05:33 Yes? 07:05:48 No? 07:06:04 * crc has no idea 07:06:26 her experience was only tapeloaders of 80-s 07:06:34 Wow 07:06:53 * crc missed out on those days by being born too late 07:07:17 here folks still make them, code demos and run partys 07:07:32 Where is here? 07:07:40 some use it out of extreme poverty, some - for antique nostalgy 07:07:42 Russia 07:08:09 A long way from Pennsylvania... 07:11:02 i feel strong temptation for Speccy or Amiga, but have no space in my 13m^2 matchbox ;(( 07:12:20 unix geek girl would be real nice ;))) 07:12:46 My wife is totally disinterested in computers 07:13:44 * Serg is totally disinterested in girls who wanna marry 07:13:58 only ones who wanna meet for pleasure and fun 07:14:49 That could change one day... 07:15:15 :P 07:15:27 mur is alive! 07:15:38 * mur sighs 07:15:39 * crc seldom sees mur say anything 07:15:48 * mur is dreaming 07:15:49 all the time 07:15:59 so much joy and jubilation in me 07:16:08 i miss her so much 07:17:04 Who is "her"? 07:17:17 never mind :) 07:17:22 ok 07:17:34 * crc is getting increasingly tired 07:17:34 GFTO ;)) 07:17:41 GFTO? 07:17:50 never mind ,) 07:17:55 going to eat 07:17:57 :-) 07:18:23 * crc hasn't eaten in 18 hours 07:18:44 I should find something to eat today 07:20:33 * crc sighs 07:20:54 * crc is a year older today 07:21:07 oops ;) 07:21:20 * Serg had a birthday yesterday 07:21:25 :-) 07:21:39 I seldom have birthday parties 07:22:00 I only mention my birthday _on_ my birthday 07:22:08 birthdays depress me 07:22:21 yeah, it's like broken deadline 07:22:23 They mean I'm getting older, and I won't be around forever 07:22:57 (Though hopefully I'll have many more - I'm still fairly young) 07:23:09 just make a goal, a purpose, and live to it 07:23:15 time is measure of changes 07:23:44 who changed/gained/completed nothing in his life, lived _no_time_ 07:23:50 * crc hates time :-) 07:24:06 who changed/gained/completed many things , lived almost forever 07:24:55 That's debatable 07:25:14 i mean, from inner feeling 07:25:23 ahh 07:25:27 did nothing - life passed in a wink 07:25:36 did many things - a year is like two lives 07:25:46 I have done plenty, yet there is little pleasure in anything 07:25:57 * crc is perpetually bordering on depression 07:27:11 so what was your greatest dream ? 07:27:33 To become an electrical engineer 07:28:08 did u do it ? 07:28:13 No 07:28:29 It's the _only_ thing I've ever started that I didn't finish 07:28:44 so do finish it ! 07:29:06 I *can't* at this point in life 07:29:10 break it apart to smaller tasks, recursively to whatever you can do right now 07:29:42 I have no money, work two (sometimes three) jobs, and barely make enough to support my wife and baby 07:30:14 I've continued studies on my own, but it's hard to proceed with no spare money 07:30:32 so your first step gonnabe: 07:30:56 1) change self to be more profitable and afford EDU in terms of time and money 07:31:04 e.g. earn more in less time 07:31:40 re 07:31:47 break it down yuorself to the little step doable rite now, and do the step 07:31:56 congratualtions crc and Serg 07:32:08 I can't leave my main job for at least a year for insurance reasons (my wife is pregnant again) 07:32:16 mur: thank you 07:32:28 mur: king-cong-RAT-ulations ;))) 07:32:40 whee! 07:32:56 taht reminds me that there is on tv today godzilla vs. marthma or somethign :) 07:33:07 serg: I'm starting to do some side work to make more money, but I have to build our savings back up and get out of debt before I can go back to school 07:33:14 Motra 07:33:16 mothra 07:33:37 crc: wrong all the way 07:33:49 serg: why am I wrong? 07:34:25 think of changin things to have _hail_ of money 07:34:59 I *can't* make decent money in this area _without_ a degree. 07:35:14 I'm already working 60+ hours a week, and can barely make ends meet now 07:35:20 what's the difference between Gates or Ford and you ? what mom/dad forgot to teach you ? 07:35:36 Timing is a big part of their success 07:35:42 find the diff and eliminate it ;)) 07:35:56 And they had some money to start with 07:36:31 the legend is, Onassis started from _ONE_NEWSPAPER_ being 10 years old 07:37:01 one newspaper 07:37:02 huh 07:37:09 that's very big property 07:37:13 Not everyone can be a successful business man 07:37:23 starting newspaper starts from 10 million euros 07:37:40 mur: no, i mean ot owning it 07:37:46 i mean being paper boy 07:38:01 the world has changed 07:38:09 paper boys can't become chefs anymore 07:38:32 and it's not teaching or learning which makes one successful. 07:38:44 serg: mur is right. The world has changed significantly since the time that the people you mentioned got their start 07:38:54 such thinks hold u back 07:39:01 No they don't. 07:39:02 another RU legend: 07:39:46 two soldiers at war, in enemy encirclement 07:40:26 one thinks: it's a finish, i have no chance to survive, so he closes eyes and dies 07:41:18 other thinks: it's a finish, i have no chance to survive, but i gonna kick as much shit out of foes as i can, i'll sell my life DAMN expansive, A-A-ARGH !! 07:41:31 whadda u think, who is remembered till today ? 07:41:38 The second man 07:41:58 But he still *died* 07:42:04 * crc doesn't want to die 07:42:12 * crc doesn't care to be remembered 07:42:38 sure, not to say he got out of 'cauldron' alive ;))) 07:43:13 coz he was fighting like satan child ;)) not surrendering like first 07:43:47 I haven't given up yet 07:43:55 I don't plan to 07:44:09 here is no middle way 07:44:14 But it's not feasible for me to pursue my dream *at this time* 07:44:16 Yes there is 07:44:27 1. Get my finances back in order 07:44:47 2. _after_ new baby is born, get a better paying job with decent insurace 07:44:52 3. Save some money 07:44:57 4. Go back to school 07:45:04 either kick all shit out of your 'fate' or be stomped by it 07:45:15 It *will* take time, but it *will* work 07:45:33 There are some things in life that can't be ignored. Lack of money is one of them 07:45:42 this is one of reasons why i avoid marriage and so... 07:45:49 My family *has* to come first 07:46:01 Serg: you are lucky in that regard 07:46:56 But I'd rather be poor, and not become an engineer, and keep the my family 07:47:12 They mean more to me than any job or dream I might have 07:47:24 how old are you crc? 07:47:37 mur: 21 today 07:48:30 you're few months younger 07:48:37 you have very hard task 07:48:43 being so young and so much worries 07:48:56 you'll survive, you're strong 07:49:43 I know I'll survive. I have a lot of patience, and I *will* be successful one day 07:50:12 money is not success, success is to learn to live 07:50:19 live life so that one enjoys it 07:50:20 I know that 07:50:46 But I'd like to have enough money that I don't have to work two jobs, or worry about paying rent every month 07:51:04 I don't want to be *rich* 07:51:41 In a few years, my cost of living will go way down, so I just have to hang on until then 07:56:55 * Serg goes home, bye ! 07:56:58 --- quit: Serg () 07:58:22 * crc is going to eat something, then go to bed. I'll be back tomorrow... 07:58:28 --- part: crc left #forth 07:58:30 cya 08:00:15 sup forthers 08:01:03 congratulations, i have received my 25th spam today 08:01:14 all of same formula. the email couldn't be sent. 08:19:39 --- join: ASau (~asau@158.250.48.204) joined #forth 08:19:47 Dobryjj vecher! 08:20:18 Privet, ASau :) 08:20:54 saljut alekseij 09:06:31 --- quit: warpzero ("Tried to warn you about Chino and Daddy Gee, but I can't seem to get to you through the U.S. Mail.") 09:12:21 --- join: warpzero (~warpzero@dsl.142.mt.onewest.net) joined #forth 09:31:00 --- quit: madwork__ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 09:38:00 --- quit: I440r ("Leaving") 10:00:23 --- join: Topaz (~top@exten-halls-131.soton.ac.uk) joined #forth 10:03:52 hmm, I have a rather random question concerning the operation of the interpreter 10:05:30 say, with one of the immediate constructs like 'BEGIN/UNTIL', how is it possible to nest them? i was under the impression that the BEGIN compile-time code looked for the according UNTIL, which, I guess, would be the next one it finds, unless it also tracks extra BEGINs between it and the end 10:06:24 or are BEGIN and UNTIL completely separate words? 10:07:43 doesnt begin put the xt adr on the return stack 10:07:53 then until pops it off 10:08:22 i'm not sure about details :) 10:08:44 ah, makes sense 10:11:13 * Topaz blunders on 10:12:03 Good evening, Topaz! 10:12:14 Well, that's a simple question. 10:12:17 'lo 10:12:25 You know, we have two stacks. 10:12:30 yeah 10:12:57 i'm trying (foolishly) to implement a simple forth for a microcontroller 10:13:17 When BEGIN runs it pushes current address onto stack. 10:13:29 i just about understand the implementation of : and ;, but various things are still eluding me, including the differences between compile-time and run-time 10:13:39 ah, ok 10:13:54 When UNTIL runs it takes that address and compiles conditional branch to that remembered location. 10:14:42 Well, classical Forth inteprete cycle this: 10:15:50 FIND IMMEDIATE? IF EXECUTE ELSE (COMPILE) THEN 10:16:03 --- quit: qFox ("this is mirc's last attempt of communication...") 10:16:16 First approx. 10:17:07 That was for compile time. 10:17:32 In interprete time this is: FIND EXECUTE 10:19:02 ah 10:19:27 my environment isn't really going to have an interpret mode 10:19:30 In practice it can be done quite different (e.g. there's NUMBER somewhere), but the idea is the same. 10:19:36 but the above makes sense, yeah 10:21:30 BTW. I can bring FIG Forth implementation of BEGIN and UNTIL here. 10:21:42 : BEGIN ?COMP HERE 1 ; IMMEDIATE 10:21:43 : UNTIL 1 ?PAIR COMPILE 0BRANCH BACK ; IMMEDIATE 10:21:59 Where 10:22:01 : BACK HERE - , ; 10:22:34 1 is used to control proper nesting. 10:23:06 x y ?PAIR runs ERROR when x!=y 10:24:09 hmm, FORTH is extremely clever 10:24:46 Actually, this is unused feature. 10:24:57 I think about removing it. 10:25:50 After small practice, you nest all constructs properly, so you don't need control. 10:26:54 All these security features are the waste of memory and the time. 10:48:06 --- join: qFox (C00K13S@cp12172-a.roose1.nb.home.nl) joined #forth 11:03:56 hmm, what does the comma world do? 11:03:57 , 11:04:01 er, word* 11:06:10 it puts the TOS to HERE 11:08:45 most common example is with CONSTANT 11:10:00 it puts the value to the next available userspace (that's HERE) reserves this space and gives it the name. (you cant normally alter the value of a constant) 11:20:06 --- quit: qFox ("this is mirc's last attempt of communication...") 11:21:45 --- join: qFox (C00K13S@cp12172-a.roose1.nb.home.nl) joined #forth 11:25:03 --- join: I440r (~FooBlah@168-215-246-243.gen.twtelecom.net) joined #forth 12:25:38 ive got "show fold guides" selected 12:28:27 what 12:29:27 jedit in linux shows lines going down at each level of indentation 12:29:35 i cant find how to enable that in this windows install 12:30:02 fold guides? 12:30:21 i got those enabled 12:30:25 they arent being drawn 12:30:40 not sure what they are or what app you're talking about :) 12:31:39 --- join: Sonarman (~matt@adsl-64-169-92-167.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 12:31:40 jedit 12:31:59 this whole converstion is a result of a mischan :) 12:32:22 awesome 12:32:23 :p 12:35:12 --- quit: I440r ("gotta reboot :/") 12:48:30 --- nick: SolarFire[ -> SolarFire 13:10:31 --- join: I440r (~FooBlah@168-215-246-243.gen.twtelecom.net) joined #forth 13:11:01 Hi I440r 13:11:41 hi 13:50:40 Jeff Fox: 13:50:40 > C was named 'C' because it was a successor to 'B'. That's called a 13:50:41 > "logical sequence". 13:50:41 There was a rumor that they wanted to pick a letter representing a 13:50:42 passing but only average grade. ;-) 13:50:46 lol 13:51:25 Hehe. 13:56:02 i like the bit about C being an abrivation of C 13:56:03 lol 13:56:17 it's a funny thread :) 13:56:21 ya 13:59:57 C-bashing is the #2 hobby of most forthers it seems :) 14:02:26 :) 14:04:48 Hrm. 14:05:07 I have some problems booting this new kernel.. I'm also using grub for the first time. 14:05:25 Do I need some initrd image? 14:05:49 I have some with the old kernel's name.. 14:06:51 you using gentoo ? 14:07:10 Nah, Debian. But since you didn't answer I started to RTFM :P 14:07:17 * Robert <-- lazy AND impatient 14:08:43 I never made initrd. 14:09:32 I always start "vmlinux noinitrd root=/dev/hdXX ro". 14:09:36 Hm. 14:09:49 Not always. 14:10:23 I've experimented with "init=/usr/bin/PROG-NAME" 14:10:38 why don't you use initrd? 14:13:35 I'll try that, ASau. 14:16:20 What need? 14:17:12 VFS says that it can't open "hda1". 14:17:28 When you start Linux from native partition you already have access to all your files. 14:17:36 Robert: what's the error message? 14:17:48 Robert, what partition is Linux installed to? 14:18:28 Sonarman, I think: "Kernel panic! Can't access /dev/hda1" or kind of. 14:18:41 Yes 14:18:48