00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.05.31 00:02:26 --- quit: Sonarman ("leaving") 00:04:54 hgi 00:04:59 hgi? 00:05:25 s/hgi/hi/g 00:05:33 hello arke 00:05:57 :) 00:06:09 The 'g' suffix was unnecessary since there was only one occurance of 'hgi' ;-) 00:07:11 ;) 00:07:15 A worldwide survey was conducted by the UN. The only question 00:07:15 asked was:"Would you please give your honest opinion about solutions to the 00:07:15 food shortage in the rest of the world?" 00:07:15 The survey was a huge failure... 00:07:17 In Africa they didn't know what "food" meant. 00:07:19 In Eastern Europe they didn't know what "honest" meant. 00:07:21 In Western Europe they didn't know what "shortage" meant. 00:07:25 In China they didn't know what "opinion" meant. 00:07:27 In the Middle East they didn't know what "solution" meant. 00:07:29 In South America they didn't know what "please" meant. 00:07:31 And in the USA they didn't know what "the rest of the world" meant 00:08:01 Funny :-) 00:08:17 so true. 00:09:59 * crc is planning to start a company to sell web hosting & development 00:11:00 crc: hire me. 00:11:14 I don't have any money to hire anyone yet :-( 00:11:33 Eventually this might help me get out of debt... 00:13:19 With my current pricing ideas, I'll begin making a profit with two customers; I'd need 150 customers to make what I make at my current job 00:13:47 Of course that's just hosting; I could make more with website development 00:21:20 * crc gave up on warpzero radio for today 00:21:47 * crc has gone back to magnatune.com for more variety in songs 00:31:26 --- join: Herkamire (stjohns@h000094d30ba2.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 00:32:07 Welcome back Herkamire 00:32:18 power back to the block :) 00:32:24 Good 00:35:38 * crc is inpatiently waiting for DNS information propogate through the 'net 00:49:14 --- part: crc left #forth 00:51:08 --- join: crc (crc@0-1pool88-10.nas48.philadelphia1.pa.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 01:01:58 SolarFire[ and I was talking about this awhile back. <- eh? 01:02:12 --- nick: SolarFire[ -> SolarFire 01:27:10 * crc added a link to HerkForth on the wikipedia Forth entry :-) 01:27:33 thanks :) 01:27:40 You're welcome. 01:27:55 I like the new design of the wikipedia site 01:28:08 I haven't been there in a long time 01:28:28 It now has articles divided into sections which are independently editable 01:29:44 I'm finally starting to get used to the herkforth interface 01:31:46 It's actually a nice way of interacting with Forth now that I finally have the screen height/width set properly 01:32:35 :) 01:32:47 wikipedia looks really nice now :) 01:32:51 I know. 01:33:07 It needed an update and I think they did a great job on it 01:35:09 herkforth needs to support odd numbered blocks 01:35:48 I keep trying to load them, only to have strange things appear on the screen :-) 01:36:24 And where does 'forth1' get created and why? 01:38:14 (I already grep'd the source for 'forth1', but to no avail) 01:43:40 it's on my todo list to document that :) 01:44:08 But where does it get created? 01:44:25 I've been browsing the blocks, but I haven't found it yet 01:44:52 scratch that, it's documented here: http://herkamire.com/jason/herkforth_bootstrapping 01:45:23 --- join: qFox (C00K13S@cp12172-a.roose1.nb.home.nl) joined #forth 01:45:52 blocks 40-58 01:46:34 invoked by shift-S (save, load-bootstrap) 01:46:40 Cool :-) 01:48:12 the image produces by gas and build.pl just interprets the blocks in order 0-58 which runs the bootstrapping code and spits out, and runs an ELF (forth1) written entirely in herkforth. 01:48:30 ok 01:48:44 so 'forth1' is the real forth system then? 01:48:49 right 01:49:02 * crc will remember that 01:49:30 when you run forth0 it creates, then runs forth1 01:50:22 and each time you save it a new forth? is created? 01:50:29 yes 01:50:41 Very cool 01:50:48 and it is run 01:50:58 so it recompiles everything 01:51:42 well, everything that's normally compiled on startup 01:52:15 you can also save the source to ascii files which does not bootstrap again 01:53:28 ok 01:53:40 sorry about the odd-numbered blocks. it wasn't possible to switch to them until the other day when I added shift-E for you 01:54:09 I understand that. I just have to remember that odd blocks can't be used at the moment 01:54:56 In RetroForth 7, all blocks are useable for code, and I tend to forget that it doesn't work that way in all forths 01:55:03 * crc is new to blocks 01:55:12 http://herkamire.com/jason/herkforth_export_source 01:55:39 I'm new to blocks too 01:56:23 I'm not getting it though 01:57:00 I never used blocks before trying herkforth 01:57:27 ? 01:57:42 but you said retroforth has blocks 01:57:53 In version 7 which I'm designing 01:58:19 And RetroForth 5 had an editor that used 512 byte chunks, but no way to evaluate the contents of them 01:58:20 you've just started using blocks in the last few days? 01:58:23 Yes 01:58:37 :) 01:58:51 I'm assuming that even blocks are for comments? 01:59:10 odd blocks are comments 01:59:27 right now they are only the first line is used 01:59:36 Ok 01:59:57 (printed at the top next to the block number for it's corresponding source block) 02:00:19 RetroForth's interpreter will have to be modified to skip odd blocks once I write a block editor 02:01:30 I don't think I'm really getting the point with blocks. 02:01:52 I think they're biggest benifits are supposed to be in disk and memory management 02:02:02 Probably 02:02:19 RetroForth doesn't have memory/disk management 02:02:29 But they do help with organizing code :-) 02:02:29 I only sorta do 02:02:45 all I do is save some of the memory areas to an ELF which loads them back 02:03:15 I don't even have that 02:03:41 I just managed to get file read/writing of raw memory chunks working under Windows and Linux 02:04:06 I need to study the ELF file format better 02:04:26 * crc intends to have a metacompiler for RetroForth one day... 02:05:04 that was one of the first things I did with herkforth 02:05:38 tcn has a metacompiler from RetroForth 3, but it's a hairy mess 02:05:40 from the start it's been my goal to make an OS that can sustain it's own development, and the development of usefull apps for it 02:05:55 That was one of tcn's goals with RetroForth. 02:06:23 I just want a nice, consistant Forth that I can run natively, or on the OSes I use frequently 02:06:45 see kernel.s in herkforth for ELF header example 02:06:52 you should only have to change a few fields 02:06:57 I'm looking at it now 02:07:13 But RetroForth needs a lot of changes to be metacompilable. 02:07:21 * crc sighs 02:07:24 (eg endian, architecture) 02:07:34 right 02:09:20 BTW .word is 2 bytes and .int is 4. Don't ask why I have no idea. 02:09:38 I've stripped the parts needing an external assembler to 25 words so far 02:09:39 ok 02:11:34 not bad. my kernel is saved to the elf with 28 words defined. 02:12:36 I have *no* idea how to rewrite those in Forth though 02:13:15 you don't know the asm? 02:13:40 I don't have an assembler written in Forth yet 02:14:05 So I'd have to inline about 1,500 hex opcodes 02:14:12 Which is not fun 02:16:00 * arke has quit (EOF from brain --- fell asleep) 02:17:19 you'll need that many for your 28 words? 02:18:38 Yup. tcn never intended the RetroForth 4.x codebase to be metacompiled, so he didn't design to make it easy 02:19:41 bummer 02:20:00 it was my goal from the begining to have only a very small part written in in asm 02:20:03 I'm seriously considering throwing out the compiler and starting fresh 02:21:00 My goal with RetroForth 6 was to eliminate as much asm as possible, but I didn't have much luck 02:21:18 RetroForth 7 *will* be self hosting, at least under Linux 02:21:24 (I don't mind using the herkforth assembler from within herkforth, I mean to have kernel.s be very small) 02:21:41 cool 02:22:11 I'm not sure how feasible it'll be to do PE executables for Linux from within RetroForth. 02:22:39 I can always bootstrap from a tiny asm kernel for Windows though 02:22:40 I include an assembler word for rlwinm (rotate left then And with mask) as a kernel word in herkforth. 02:23:07 this is very useful for writting the assembler in herkforth (which starts on block 2) 02:23:23 :-) 02:23:26 PE? 02:23:55 I don't know if that would be useful for x86 though since you have 8-bit fields right? 02:24:26 ppc has all kinds of field sizes. 02:24:45 windows uses a borked version of the COFF file format that they call PE 02:24:49 lots of 5 and 6 bit fields. some 10. occational 26 etc. 02:25:00 oh 02:25:09 I've considered writing an ELF loader for Windows though 02:25:18 feh 02:25:19 * crc thinks that would be useful 02:26:02 as long as you can boil the format down to a bunch of static bytes with a few variables for entry point, size, and memory space 02:26:25 I was researching the Mach-O exe header format, and got it down to that. 02:26:27 The problem is in the poorly documented sections 02:26:54 I have to add resource sections which require all sorts of odd formats 02:27:26 only thing I'd have to change to spit one out (aside from all the literals) is that one of the parameters (eg entry-point) is in there twice. 02:27:47 so I'd have to save two address to store it at once I know the value 02:28:02 oh dear 02:28:10 it get's complex when you do multiple sections. 02:28:13 avoid it if possible 02:28:59 Under Windows I *can't* avoid multiple sections 02:29:06 I just waste space and store my sections (dictionary, source blocks, data, kernel (not in that order)) spaced out one ELF section. 02:29:25 There has to be an imports section, a resource section, and a code section for it to work properly 02:29:44 And I have yet to find an easy way to deal with all of that 02:31:42 why do you need multiple sections? 02:33:09 Under Windows, all apps must have an import section and import at least one dll 02:33:19 I *don't* know why 02:33:45 I just want Microsoft to switch to ELF like most other OSes these days 02:34:08 geeze 02:34:14 screw M 02:34:18 screw M$ 02:35:50 I might drop windows support altogether 02:35:58 It'd be easier for me 02:35:59 I think isforth produces Windoze executables 02:36:07 perhaps that would be useful to you 02:37:10 I bet most people you'd really want to attract to retroforth at this stage would be able to use linux 02:37:14 I know isForth runs on linux. I haven't heard about any windows support 02:37:17 or they can just use the bootable one 02:37:44 oh duh 02:38:01 I was thinking x86 executables 02:38:08 of course it doesn't make windoze executables 02:38:37 well, I gotta get some sleep 02:39:39 ok 02:39:43 ttyl 02:40:25 keep playing with herkforth! 02:40:27 later 02:41:16 I will :-) 02:57:18 --- quit: crc ("ISP about to disconnect me...") 03:07:33 --- join: AshyIsMe (~ashy@smm-103-145-219-137.tvlres.jcu.edu.au) joined #forth 03:07:53 --- part: AshyIsMe left #forth 03:22:42 onetom: still alive? 03:23:23 Herkamire: you're a friend of folk music, right? 03:38:04 still, yes 03:39:27 aren't you a kaval player? 03:44:23 maybe you know already.. sandra, dragan's (new) front voice has an incredible potential, marvelous.. yay 03:57:06 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 04:49:24 --- quit: warpzero (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 04:49:25 --- quit: madwork (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 04:49:25 --- quit: tathi (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 04:49:25 --- quit: arke (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 04:49:25 --- quit: Fractal (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 04:49:25 --- quit: onetom (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 04:49:26 --- quit: cmeme (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 04:49:26 --- quit: mur (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 04:49:26 --- quit: gl (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 04:49:26 --- quit: futhin (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 04:49:26 --- quit: Herkamire (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 04:49:27 --- quit: SolarFire (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 04:49:27 --- quit: Robert (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 04:49:27 --- quit: ianp (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 04:49:27 --- quit: qFox (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 04:50:05 --- join: futhin (thin@bespin.org) joined #forth 04:50:05 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 04:50:05 --- join: qFox (C00K13S@cp12172-a.roose1.nb.home.nl) joined #forth 04:50:05 --- join: Herkamire (stjohns@h000094d30ba2.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 04:50:05 --- join: arke (~Chris@wbar8.lax1-4-11-100-108.dsl-verizon.net) joined #forth 04:50:05 --- join: SolarFire (SolarFire@pD9E59DEB.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 04:50:05 --- join: Fractal (jah@selling.kernels.to.linus.torvalds.at.hcsw.org) joined #forth 04:50:05 --- join: madwork (~madgarden@204.138.110.15) joined #forth 04:50:05 --- join: Robert (~snofs@c-bf5a71d5.17-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) joined #forth 04:50:05 --- join: warpzero (~warpzero@dsl.142.mt.onewest.net) joined #forth 04:50:05 --- join: cmeme (~cmeme@216.184.11.30.unused.swcp.com) joined #forth 04:50:05 --- join: ianp (ian@inpuj.net) joined #forth 04:50:05 --- join: mur (~mur@smtp.uiah.fi) joined #forth 04:50:05 --- join: gl (~foo@opcode.org) joined #forth 04:50:05 --- join: onetom (~tom@novtan.bio.u-szeged.hu) joined #forth 04:50:05 --- mode: irc.freenode.net set +o futhin 04:50:28 SolarFire: url? ;) 04:56:18 http://www.dragandautovski.com.mk/Zajdi.mp3 04:56:18 --- quit: madgarden (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 04:56:45 another sample http://www.dragandautovski.com.mk/Jano.mp3 05:07:36 --- quit: qFox (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:07:36 --- quit: warpzero (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:07:36 --- quit: madwork (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:07:36 --- quit: arke (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:07:36 --- quit: tathi (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:07:36 --- quit: Fractal (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:07:36 --- quit: onetom (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:07:36 --- quit: mur (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:07:36 --- quit: gl (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:07:36 --- quit: cmeme (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:07:36 --- quit: futhin (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:07:36 --- quit: Herkamire (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:07:36 --- quit: ianp (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:07:36 --- quit: SolarFire (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:07:36 --- quit: Robert (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:07:36 --- join: futhin (thin@bespin.org) joined #forth 05:07:36 --- join: lalalim (~lalalim@p508ABAD6.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 05:07:36 --- join: gl (~foo@opcode.org) joined #forth 05:07:36 --- join: mur (~mur@smtp.uiah.fi) joined #forth 05:07:36 --- join: ianp (ian@inpuj.net) joined #forth 05:07:36 --- join: cmeme (~cmeme@216.184.11.30.unused.swcp.com) joined #forth 05:07:36 --- join: warpzero (~warpzero@dsl.142.mt.onewest.net) joined #forth 05:07:36 --- join: Robert (~snofs@c-bf5a71d5.17-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) joined #forth 05:07:36 --- join: madwork (~madgarden@204.138.110.15) joined #forth 05:07:36 --- join: Fractal (jah@selling.kernels.to.linus.torvalds.at.hcsw.org) joined #forth 05:07:36 --- join: SolarFire (SolarFire@pD9E59DEB.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 05:07:36 --- join: arke (~Chris@wbar8.lax1-4-11-100-108.dsl-verizon.net) joined #forth 05:07:36 --- join: Herkamire (stjohns@h000094d30ba2.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 05:07:36 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 05:07:36 --- join: qFox (C00K13S@cp12172-a.roose1.nb.home.nl) joined #forth 05:07:36 --- mode: irc.freenode.net set +o futhin 05:07:36 heard them at excellent L.I.B.R.A. inetradio, my favourite of them is kopnez 05:07:36 --- quit: skylan (Remote closed the connection) 05:07:36 --- quit: lalalim_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 05:08:43 L.I.B.R.A. is http://www.shoutcast.com/sbin/shoutcast-playlist.pls?rn=34109&file=filename.pls 05:09:45 or http://www.libraradio.com or genre world at www.shoutcast.com 05:11:12 --- join: skylan (~sjh@vickesh01-4582.tbaytel.net) joined #forth 05:16:31 --- join: onetom (~tom@novtan.bio.u-szeged.hu) joined #forth 05:23:19 -Md/Wallops- sorry for the split, one of our sponsors is currently offline because of local network problems 05:23:19 * ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) has joined #forth 05:23:19 * clog (nef@bespin.org) has joined #forth 05:23:19 * skylan (~sjh@vickesh01-4582.tbaytel.net) has joined #forth 05:23:20 * lalalim_ (~lalalim@p508ABAD6.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #forth 05:23:22 * irc.freenode.net sets modes [#forth +o ChanServ] 05:23:24 heard them at excellent L.I.B.R.A. inetradio, my favourite of them is kopnez 05:23:26 * skylan has quit (Remote closed the connection) 05:23:28 * lalalim_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 05:23:30 L.I.B.R.A. is http://www.shoutcast.com/sbin/shoutcast-playlist.pls?rn=34109&file=filename.pls 05:23:32 or http://www.libraradio.com or genre world at www.shoutcast.com 05:23:34 * skylan (~sjh@vickesh01-4582.tbaytel.net) has joined #forth 05:23:36 * onetom (~tom@novtan.bio.u-szeged.hu) has joined #forth 05:23:38 oopsie lol 05:26:24 quel malheur .. 05:26:30 thx 05:26:43 onetom: do you like it? 05:26:52 just d/l-ed.. hold on 05:29:01 * onetom is very busy in these hours 05:29:39 there is not much kaval in it... 05:30:26 yup, just a tiny sample. the album is full of it though 05:31:41 hm.. vocalist is diligent in jano.mp3 :) 05:32:00 borrowed the cd. you can have it l8ter 05:32:16 it would b nice 05:32:33 lets get back 2 the topic next week, right? 05:32:54 probably we could swap some music 05:33:08 i have about 300cds of mp3 05:33:26 yes, take your time... i'll msg you then 05:33:38 k 05:33:44 oki 05:35:41 im about 2 make a computer-room of 20 machines 2 serve ~30G of their harddisk 4 a raid5 array over network gaining ~20x30G=600G space 05:36:12 imean ~20x30G*2/3=400G 05:37:58 this workstation has 2Tera, but no sata yet 05:40:06 onetom: room in the university lab? 05:42:56 could use much more diskspace, but it's stupid to leave the gb/$ optimum 05:45:13 onetom: what'll be the use of your network array? 06:01:06 --- join: MrReach (~spam@209.181.43.190) joined #forth 06:01:06 --- mode: ChanServ set +o MrReach 06:09:48 Hello 06:13:27 Good Morning, Robert. ;-) 06:32:01 SolarFire: yup, @ the univ 06:32:32 SolarFire: 2T? what for? 06:34:40 --- quit: MrReach () 06:44:25 --- join: arke_ (~Chris@wbar8.lax1-4-11-100-108.dsl-verizon.net) joined #forth 06:46:20 --- quit: arke (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 06:56:10 onetom: dev, data, no multimedia. 06:56:26 L.I.B.R.A. is http://www.shoutcast.com/sbin/shoutcast-playlist.pls?rn=34109&file=filename.pls 06:56:42 kopnez playing now 07:42:58 --- join: fridge (~fridge@dsl-203-33-165-4.NSW.netspace.net.au) joined #forth 07:44:06 hi internet super friends 07:44:23 I have a cold =( 08:03:05 :( 08:03:12 so do i i think 08:11:54 the air con at work is possessed, or at least the timer for it has gone haywire 08:11:58 it turns iself on at 1am 08:12:02 then off at 5 08:12:05 then on at 7 08:12:16 :) 08:13:26 lol 08:19:20 You're at work at 1am to 7am ? 08:23:18 midnight to 8am, actually 08:23:52 Fun. 08:23:57 What do you do? 08:24:07 I am the unbreaker 08:24:13 fixer of all 08:24:22 Hehe 08:24:45 some bizzare combination of system administration and programming 08:34:42 hi 08:35:45 Hello 08:45:04 --- quit: tathi ("work, back in 7 hours or so...") 08:50:07 Robert: send me email? 08:51:44 Eh, no 08:53:46 SolarFire: you must be thinking of someone else. I don't even know what a kaval is 10:35:56 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@66-74-218-202.san.rr.com) joined #forth 10:36:03 --- join: ASau (~asau@158.250.48.204) joined #forth 10:36:05 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja 10:36:22 Guten Abend! 10:36:27 Privet. :) 10:36:37 I dobryjj den. 10:38:51 I'm all covered with ants now. Just finished washing my car. 10:39:41 heh 10:50:00 Why does washing your car cover you in ants? 10:54:17 --- quit: arke_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 10:54:36 I think because ants are everywhere. 10:55:14 warpzero: Because a vehicle is a haven for ants to explore. Ants don't like soapy water, and so they all run out of the car. Since I'm the nearest (dry) object they find, they crawl all onto me. 10:55:21 Plus, it seems to be ant season around here. 10:56:03 One time we observed interesting things. 10:56:45 kc5tja: Time to move to a colder climate I think. 10:56:50 We had ants and roaches moving to and from our house. 10:58:06 It looks like they exclude one another. 10:58:34 Either roaches or ants, but not both. 10:59:12 They changed till we stopped that game. 11:02:57 warpzero: Never. 11:03:47 warpzero: I lived 22 years of my life in such a "colder climate," and (a) that doesn't solve the insect problem (it merely changes the season with which it becomes an issue), and (b) my allergies are vastly more pronounced in such a climate due to much heavier pollination. 11:05:36 oic 11:36:10 --- join: skylan_ (~sjh@vickesh01-4482.tbaytel.net) joined #forth 11:55:35 bbiab 11:57:13 --- quit: skylan (Connection timed out) 12:04:53 --- quit: warpzero ("Tried to warn you about Chino and Daddy Gee, but I can't seem to get to you through the U.S. Mail.") 12:18:19 --- join: Sonarman (~matt@adsl-67-113-235-127.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 12:38:08 --- join: wossname (wossname@Toronto-HSE-ppp3699841.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 13:07:10 --- join: I440r (~mark4@168-215-246-243.gen.twtelecom.net) joined #forth 13:24:29 --- join: MrReach (~spam@209.181.43.190) joined #forth 13:24:29 --- mode: ChanServ set +o MrReach 13:24:46 hihi 13:26:50 is 'sizeof' used commonly anywhere? 13:27:24 so much for my grammer ... back to grade school for me 13:30:50 i dont use it with my structures because a structure is a constant giving its overall size 13:30:54 no need for sizeof 13:51:39 MrReach: I always use sizeof. 13:51:47 sizeof() **IS** a CONSTANT expression. 13:51:55 It CANNOT tell the size of a structure at run-time. 14:11:13 --- quit: SolarFire (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 14:23:59 --- join: lalalim_ (~lalalim@pD95EAE9F.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 14:26:41 --- join: slava (~slava@CPE00096ba44261-CM000e5cdfda14.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 14:28:30 --- join: warpzero (~warpzero@dsl.142.mt.onewest.net) joined #forth 14:29:13 --- quit: lalalim (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 14:30:07 --- quit: warpzero (Client Quit) 14:38:29 I chose a different path 14:38:50 was wondering if sizeof was already used somewhere 14:39:04 dont want to break existing code, if known 14:41:10 --- quit: MrReach () 14:53:39 --- quit: fridge ("http://lice.codehack.com") 14:53:57 --- quit: Sonarman (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 15:03:22 --- join: Sonarman (~matt@adsl-64-171-255-244.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 15:09:40 --- join: fridge (~fridge@dsl-203-33-165-4.NSW.netspace.net.au) joined #forth 15:23:51 --- join: doublec (~doublec@coretech.co.nz) joined #forth 15:25:04 hi 15:25:15 Hi there 15:26:00 hello 15:32:23 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 15:48:39 slava, is it ok to ask questions about Factor here? 15:48:50 doublec, are you Chris Double? 15:48:59 slava, yes 15:49:14 sure, as long as nobody else minds :) 15:50:02 i'm actually working on the compiler right now, trying to fix tail call optimization. 15:50:10 cool 15:50:42 I notice in the parsing section of the website you mention complex numbers. These don't work in 0.58 - is it in a later version? 15:50:53 yes, i just added it 15:51:03 didn't think anybody would check the page, so i uploaded the new docs immediately 15:51:13 i applied for a java.net project; as soon as that is done there will be CVS. 15:52:14 I've written forth programs before, but not Joy. I quite like the ability to use and manipulate quoted programs and combinators. 15:53:03 it makes for a hairy compiler though. 15:53:34 Yeah, I notice things are a bit more complex than your average forth implementation. 15:53:34 --- quit: wossname ("what did this man do to deserve this") 15:53:51 What is the difference between map and inject? Is it only that one can be compiled and the other can't? 15:54:07 in map, the quotation can produce any number of arguments 15:54:13 eg, [ 1 2 3 ] [ drop ] map ==> [ ] 15:54:25 of [ 1 2 3 ] [ dup ] map ==> [ 1 1 2 2 3 3 ] 15:54:33 ahh, I see. Thanks. 15:54:47 i don't like map and expand, they're going away at some stage 15:55:14 my game depends on the behavior of map though; i need to change some code there before i can remove it 15:55:17 I'm still getting back into the stack manipulation mindset. It's been a while! I ported a Ficl (a Forth) over to my cellphone a couple of years back and used that to write some programs. 15:55:29 How is the game going? 15:55:55 its going a bit slow, the graphics artist has been busy lately. but overall its ok. there won't be a release for a little while yet though. 15:56:09 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 15:56:29 there are some things i don't like coding in stack langauges, like anything that requires a lot of parameters and cannot be reasonably split up. 15:57:45 what made you pick a Forth/Joy/Lisp type language? It's a bit different from Java! 15:58:13 its a funny story actually 15:58:25 when i started working on the game i first needed a file format to store some name/value type stuff, and also the game map 15:58:42 i was using a properties file for the former and a custom format for the latter, but then i thought to implement a stack interpreter 15:59:18 the first attempt had only a handful of words, like @ (now called set), and setMap 15:59:38 it didn't get flow control or user-defined words until a few months later, when I started the "main menu" of the game and wanted to do that with scripting. 16:00:19 basically I wanted to try using a common file format for all non-code-but-still-syntaxy stuff. 16:01:39 I wanted to try a better approach than what I used in jedit, which reads and writes about a dozen custom file formats and XML DTDs for configuration -- this is just insane. 16:02:08 the joy and forth influence came a bit later, when it started becoming a real language, and I wanted to see how other postfix languages were done. 16:02:44 So it grew up from a config file format to a full programming language. That's pretty neat. 16:04:08 You'll have to be careful...if it gets popular you'll be spending all your time hacking the language and libraries rather than the game :) 16:04:30 well the improved libraries and compiler have allowed me to write more and more of the game in factor. 16:04:52 recently i started the system for in-game missions with goals etc. and this is largely written in factor. 16:05:17 but yeah, it sort of grew beyond the original goals 16:05:23 cool. are you able to say what type of game it is? 16:05:47 action/shoot-em-up/strategy, graphics are rendered using opengl but its 2d birds eye view 16:05:55 nice 16:06:30 personally i'd release early/release often, but my friend who's doing the graphics is a bit more secretive... :) 16:06:31 How are you doing error handling in factor? Is there an exception system, catch/throw or something similar? 16:06:40 no catch/throw yet. 16:07:33 i'm not sure what to develop more in factor... i can't just add arbitrary features hoping they'd be useful. 16:08:30 true. With a good base, and factor seems to have one, it's possible to develop things as needed anyway. Particularly with continuations as execptions, etc can be built on that. 16:09:31 from the interpreter, how do I load a factor file? I currently copy/paste definitions in as I go. 16:09:34 my short term goals are working on the factor.db package, the http server, and implementing some form of online help. 16:09:46 run-file ( path -- ) 16:09:54 thanks 16:09:54 or create $HOME/.factor-rc 16:11:02 out of curiosity, what kind of code are you writing with it? 16:11:54 I have a long running project that I've used various languages with. I'm trying parts of it in factor to see how it goes. 16:12:08 Currently reading and 'scraping' data from lots of html files. 16:12:12 interesting. 16:12:24 Then this data goes into a db and a web server presents different statistics on it. 16:12:26 what areas of the library need improvement, in your opinion? 16:13:00 Users can write routines to query the data and see the updates on the web server. 16:13:34 I've only played with the reading of data in html files and the strings library had plenty of stuff to do that fine. 16:13:39 And the regular expressions of course. 16:13:59 i'll add raw strings #"..." where \ has no special meaning for regexps at some stage. 16:14:06 ok 16:14:07 its pretty easy actually, just make a parsing word #" 16:14:25 How do you make a parsing word? 16:14:56 using Java code. make a subclass of FactorParsingDefinition in the factor.parser package, add an entry for it in FactorInterpreter.initBuiltinsDictionary() 16:15:27 or maybe even change the " parsing word so its constructor takes a flag, if escapes should be handled or not. 16:15:36 and create two instances, one for " and one for #". 16:16:17 great thanks 16:16:43 have you ever seen userland frontier? 16:16:58 yes. I use Radio Userland for my weblog too. 16:17:13 the factor.db is an object database that resembles frontier's somewhat. 16:17:26 ok. Can it persist most factor types? 16:17:47 with the httpd and factor.db you could make a pretty reasonable frontier type system. 16:17:51 it can persist anything the parser can read, as well as namespaces whose values are persistent, and word definitions. 16:18:15 i'll make it persist any serializable java object too. 16:30:33 --- join: Alcides (~webmaster@adsl-64-166-19-49.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 16:31:40 hi Alcides 16:34:05 Hi. 16:47:44 --- quit: tathi ("Lost terminal") 17:11:47 slava, sometimes when I compile words using "word" compile I see things printed. The same as with 'compile-all'. Should I just ignore this or is it telling me something I need to know? 17:11:51 for examle: 17:12:04 append-( X X -- X )-( X X -- X X )-true-null.null.base=( X X -- X ) 17:20:13 --- join: crc (crc@0-1pool176-38.nas6.philadelphia1.pa.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 17:22:27 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 17:25:40 --- join: madgarden_ (~madgarden@Kitchener-HSE-ppp3576712.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 17:25:59 Hello. 17:26:05 --- nick: madgarden_ -> madgarden 17:27:28 Hello madgarden 17:31:26 doublec, ignore it 17:31:33 doublec, its debug output... 17:44:57 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 17:46:44 --- quit: Alcides (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 17:48:10 So, what's shaking? 17:48:12 --- nick: skylan_ -> skylan 17:51:30 * crc is working on RetroForth 7.0 17:58:41 RetroForth... I've heard talk of it. Got a site? 18:01:00 http://www.retroforth.org 18:06:38 --- quit: crc ("Time for work...") 20:02:43 --- log: started forth/04.05.31 20:02:43 --- join: clog (nef@bespin.org) joined #forth 20:02:43 --- topic: 'A channel dedicated to the Forth programming language, its implications, its applications, and its philosophy. :NOTICE: Kestrel's microprocessor has changed. For more information, check the weblog and project page for the Kestrel on http://www.falvotech.com .' 20:02:43 --- topic: set by kc5tja on [Mon May 10 07:46:47 2004] 20:02:43 --- names: list (clog skylan onetom arke doublec fridge Sonarman slava lalalim_ ASau @kc5tja @ChanServ gl mur ianp cmeme Robert madwork Herkamire @futhin) 20:04:31 --- join: wmg (~weldon@bgp02689673bgs.flrdav01.dc.comcast.net) joined #forth 20:07:38 back 20:07:45 wb clog 20:07:54 ^_^ 20:25:19 --- quit: wmg ("Leaving") 20:41:52 --- quit: doublec ("Leaving") 21:12:51 --- join: Fractal (jah@selling.kernels.to.linus.torvalds.at.hcsw.org) joined #forth 21:18:47 * arke is installing FBSD 21:19:08 nice 21:19:09 which vers 21:19:21 5.2.1 21:19:49 * slava is using 4.10 21:21:11 * arke LOVES vmware 21:21:23 bah, i run it native 21:22:46 oh 21:22:49 I'm installing it natice 21:22:56 just can't run it, for lack of net support 21:23:03 and also, this way, I can stay on IRC during the install 21:25:44 make sense? 21:27:59 eh... 21:28:02 it ain't booting... 21:28:02 :( 21:28:55 oh, nevermind.... 21:28:58 it is 21:28:58 :) 21:30:27 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 21:30:31 it just crashed FBSD!!!! 21:41:10 --- quit: ASau () 21:53:06 not working :( 22:02:59 --- quit: slava ("Leaving") 22:48:49 I'm back for now. I have to work tomorrow though, so going to bed soon. 23:03:58 OK, I'm going to bed now. Ciao. 23:04:05 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK") 23:12:16 --- quit: Sonarman ("leaving") 23:51:47 --- join: Serg (~z@212.34.52.140) joined #forth 23:58:36 --- quit: Serg () 23:59:12 --- join: Serg (~z@212.34.52.140) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/04.05.31