00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.05.30 00:00:16 "A and (not A)" is not true in science. 00:00:31 And it is not always true even in logic. 00:00:52 I mean _mathematical_ logic. 00:01:35 But it must be true. 00:01:39 It cannot be anything but. 00:01:51 Well, by true, I mean "complete." (which is how you're using the term 'true') 00:02:01 If A = 3, A then *cannot* be equal to five. 00:02:05 Learn intuitionists' logic. 00:02:12 Equality in math is a statement of truth, not a variable assignment. 00:02:17 No, I won't. 00:02:20 Because it's false. 00:03:01 "intuitionists" makes it pretty obvious its irrational in the first place? (i don't know what intuitonists logic is about) 00:03:09 bonjour 00:03:55 The point is: there exist statements, for which (A or (not A)) can not be proved. 00:04:09 Oh. 00:04:19 Another name is "constructivism." 00:04:26 ASau: Logically, (a or (not a)) is necessarily true, for all a. 00:04:42 anybody yet dug into quantum dna optical computers? 00:04:52 kc5tja. That's only in boolean logic. 00:05:06 Boolean logic is only one of many others. 00:05:21 I have made a decision. 00:05:25 ASau: I'm sure, but I've yet to find one logic that actually accurately models the real world any better than Boolean. 00:05:31 For now, I will merely keep the F1 kernel 00:05:35 E.g. constructivists' is better when you want to work in real world. 00:05:46 the F2 kernel will be developed later, separately 00:06:11 I see no direct evidence to support that claim. 00:06:15 The Interface shoudl be proted from F to F2 without any problem. 00:06:19 Boolean logic has one flaw. 00:06:42 Which is? 00:07:20 If you can prove positive statement "A", you're not able _with_necessity_ to prove negative statement "not A." 00:07:54 Boolean logic has one HHHUUUGGGEEE advantage -- it is fully in conformance with Shannon's Information Theory, which we now know de facto that all systems (digital or otherwise, electrical or otherwise) adhere to. 00:08:18 I have yet to see **ONE** system of logic that **CAN** prove definitively a negative. 00:08:59 Which is just another way of expressing, "There is always a third case." 00:09:00 So what? 00:10:05 "There is always a third case" is definitly strong constriction. 00:10:13 No. 00:10:18 I don't think it is. 00:10:21 ...restriction. 00:10:22 It's just common sense. 00:10:43 A boolean expression is true for the set of variables that it takes into consideration. 00:11:00 More right it is to say "there may exist." 00:11:01 If you find that it is false, for any reason, then there MUST be at least one other variable that was not taken into consideration. 00:11:10 And I ahve found, *repeatedly*, that this is a true statement. 00:11:18 No. 00:11:25 What I said was precise and correct. 00:11:43 A boolean expression (A = B) is true for the set of variables that it does take into consideration. Period. 00:11:54 Have you heard about "Choice Axiom" debate? 00:12:02 A=B+C is true for all B and C -- I couldn't possibly care less about D. 00:12:25 The only time I'd care about D is if I found A to *not* equal B+C for some combination of B+C. 00:12:57 You cannot possibly refute that. That is, in fact, quite axiomatic. 00:13:07 No, I haven't. 00:13:17 What about objects, where you possibly have infinite number of variables? 00:13:24 What about them? 00:13:33 What about Fourier transforms, where you have an infinite number of sine waves? 00:13:41 logic is logical! ;) 00:13:42 What about wavelets? 00:14:03 BE LEET, BE LAZY 00:14:26 Comparison of object A = object B may involve too may numeric parameters. 00:14:42 Again, WITHIN A CONTEXT THE STATEMENT IS TRUE. 00:14:46 I drive an RX-7. 00:14:50 My neighbor drives a BMW. 00:14:54 They're BOTH CARS. 00:14:57 That statement is TRUE. 00:15:03 But his car IS NOT a rotary-engine car. 00:15:06 That statement is also true. 00:15:11 But does that make the first invalid? No. 00:15:28 Your neighbor's car is gay. 00:15:42 What is it with people that they just feel SO compelled to ignore context when trying to prove a point? 00:15:42 AS AM I!!!!@$@!@#@~!~!@~!@ 00:15:42 Well, let's start deforming a car into rotare-engine car. 00:15:44 j/k 00:15:50 ASau: You can't. 00:15:51 Where is the border? 00:15:51 heheh 00:15:51 I can't. 00:15:56 It's pointless to even try. 00:16:09 A BMW just plain isn't a rotary engined car. 00:16:26 Period. nothing more need be said. 00:17:07 Well, I don't see why I'm even persuing this argument. It's midnight, and I'm going to bed. 00:17:11 Enjoy yourselves. 00:17:16 night kc5tja 00:17:53 clear 00:17:54 gahh 00:18:03 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK") 00:18:09 Well. The point is that classical logic has to throw away many of _real_world_ examples to be able to work. 00:25:11 --- quit: Fractal (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 00:25:15 arke: what is F? 00:25:25 EFFING F! 00:25:42 http://robert.zizi.org 00:25:47 It's futhin, everyone's favorite time traveller :-) 00:26:13 :) 00:26:20 heheh 00:26:24 http://robert.zizi.org/f.html to be precise. 00:26:58 http://thin.bespin.org/cduce/outfit1.jpg <---- SEXY! 00:27:22 ^___^ 00:27:26 heh 00:27:43 that's my outfit for when i'm picking up chicks at the bar 00:27:50 :-) 00:27:57 actually that's my boring everyday outfit 00:28:07 altho i got some other nice coats too :P 00:32:15 A non qwerty keymap :-( 00:33:52 F has too much assembly code in it! 00:34:02 crc: yes it does. 00:34:06 crc: F2 won't 00:34:14 crc: but for now, I am using the original F kernel. 00:34:22 crc: plan to take it to 1.4 00:34:36 crc: using even = stable, uneven = unstable 00:35:06 the transition between 1.2 and 1.4 would be the development of memory protection 00:35:19 with assembly stubs and the guts written in Forth 00:35:48 * crc is rewriting RetroForth to move nearly all of the words to Forth + inline assembly 00:36:04 thats my plan with F2 00:36:08 and also to make it STFC 00:36:09 er 00:36:10 STC 00:36:18 arke: why use memory protection? 00:36:52 crc: its multi-tasking, and I do want to protect a little. 00:37:04 crc: although it'll be very, very simple memory protection 00:38:34 ok, that makes sense then 00:40:13 all it should really be is say "I want that memory range, can I?", "I don't want that anymore." as well as "What can I have that does this+that for me?" 00:42:44 Robert: GET YOUR LAZY OVERSIZED ALBINO SWEDISH ASS OUT OF BED BEFORE I MAKE YOU TEABAG YOURSELF 00:42:50 Robert: btw, just kidding. :) 00:43:44 HE WILL MAKE YOU EAT YOUR CHODE, PH33R!! 00:44:22 yes, ph33r. 00:44:40 I will make good use of his F 00:45:52 arke: what URL will your version of F be availible at? 00:46:01 crc: no idea 00:46:26 Why no idea? 00:47:04 because I don't know yet. 00:47:09 Ok :-) 00:47:14 Maybe Robert will be nice enough to host me 00:47:43 * crc can provide hosting if you need it 00:47:46 :-) 00:50:35 * crc will return in a few minutes... 00:50:39 --- quit: crc ("ChatZilla 0.9.61 [Mozilla rv:1.7b/20040316]") 00:53:30 REMEMBER YOUR CHODE IS YOUR TAINT FOR YOU IGNORANT FOOLS 00:56:35 futhin: a little less beer, mmkay? :) 01:00:46 --- join: crc (crc@0-1pool88-12.nas48.philadelphia1.pa.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 01:01:16 --- quit: teehee (Remote closed the connection) 01:03:03 * crc just attempted to upgrade Mozilla 01:03:14 teehee 01:04:15 it didn't work 01:04:42 That's what I get for installing an alpha version :-) 01:05:43 :-) 01:06:22 It installed just fine, but refuses to fully load 01:06:51 bleh. 01:07:00 * crc sighs. I need a small web browser for Windows *without* the overhead of IE or Mozilla 01:07:06 well, your own fault for using the whole mozilla suite anyway :) 01:07:15 crc: Mozilla FireFox 01:07:18 Now I'm redownloading version 1.6 01:07:28 Still too big for my tastes 01:07:29 crc: basically, its only the browser of Mozilla 01:07:44 crc: also, get yourself Xchat or irssi or such 01:07:45 :) 01:07:47 What I *want* is something like Dillo, but for Windows 01:07:54 I'm running MIRC at the moment 01:08:14 firefox isn't that bad :) 01:08:47 No it's not too bad, but's it's still a 7MB download 01:08:58 And I'm on a slow dialup connection 01:09:07 wget? 01:09:23 What about wget? 01:10:13 What do you want? Do you want to get it or to get it fast? 01:10:41 I want a *browser* that is small in size and still renders HTML+CSS pages 01:11:00 What about text browsers? 01:11:06 Like w3m. 01:11:13 and I don't want it to use Gecko or IE's rendering engine 01:11:22 Not reliable on Windows XP 01:11:50 And it lacks the CSS support I use to make pages easier to read 01:12:17 And most pages on the 'net today are hard to browse in a text browser 01:12:37 Sorry? You say, w3m does not work on XP? 01:12:48 Not reliably 01:13:06 It has a tendency to crash on my computer 01:13:30 I don't have access to XP. What are problems? 01:13:57 After a prolonged period of browsing it segfaults 01:14:17 Hm. Memory leak? 01:14:17 I *think* there's a memory leak in the Windows port, but I'm not 100% sure 01:14:57 The only Windows programming I do is with RetroForth/Windows, so I don't know what to do about it 01:15:39 What about sending bug report with only symptoms? 01:15:55 No replies to them yet 01:16:19 * crc relies on Mozilla Mail for email, so that's not working either 01:16:23 Actually, I've not run w3m on NT for prolonged times. 01:17:10 I tend to be online for 5-10 hours at a time, sometimes longer. And I always have a browser (with 5-10 tabs), email, and IRC running. 01:17:12 Sometimes a couple of SSH sessions as well 01:17:22 crc: do you know of a good software for ripping in winblows? 01:17:49 For ripping what? 01:18:07 CDs 01:18:09 Well, I understand. Approx. this is my way too. 01:18:15 To what format? 01:18:21 mp3 01:18:35 At the moment I use RealPlayer 01:18:42 arke. I did it with CD Ripper, when I needed. 01:19:02 But I didn't recode WAV to MP3. 01:19:22 hrm 01:19:33 opera not small enough? 01:19:48 * arke should try opera --- 01:19:55 i have heard only good things about it 01:19:59 * crc has had problems with Opera's rendering engine in the past 01:20:01 where can i get it and is it free? 01:20:09 I have heard bad things. 01:20:23 arke. It's shareware. 01:20:28 arke: http://www.mgshareware.com/frmmain.shtml 01:20:41 I've used this in the past as well 01:20:47 arke: you heard opera was good from someone besides i440r? 01:20:59 yeah 01:21:12 hmm 01:21:26 well i tried out opera but it runs slower on my comp than firefox 01:21:33 (133mhz 32megs ram) 01:22:05 futhin: you need a faster computer :-P 01:22:17 lol 01:22:23 nah why? 133mhz and 32 meg ram is blazing fast seriously 01:22:25 futhin: man, I had one of those 7 years ago 01:22:37 only with a crappy OS can it possibly be seen as inadequate 01:22:43 * crc still uses an original IBM PC 01:22:49 I know 01:23:15 my 133 mhz & 32meg ram computer has win 98 on it 01:23:16 But if you ran Linux, and ever had to compile a kernel or Emacs, I feel sorry for you 01:23:35 or even X11 01:23:37 its more responsive than my grandma's computer which is 1ghz, 256 meg ram, and has win XP 01:24:01 basically, win XP running on a hugely faster machine is less responsive than win 98 on my computer 01:24:04 * arke is away: Halo 01:24:16 this proves that win XP is deliberately less responsive 01:24:21 forcing ppl to upgrade even more 01:24:27 * crc has a Dell laptop 600mhz, 256MB ram, WinXP, Linux, BeOS, RetroForth/Native... 01:24:35 in order to increase that responsiveness 01:24:49 You can make WinXP run quite nicely if you have a decent video card or turn off all of the eye candy 01:25:38 I run Linux (in console mode ONLY!) most of the time though 01:26:39 crc. Do you know any sound player for console mode? 01:26:42 * crc wishes that Google fully supported use of browsers other than IE 01:27:12 I'd wanted something like MPXPLAY. 01:27:25 There was one I used in SuSE 6.4, but I can't recall the name. 01:27:52 You just said 'play AUDIOFILE' and it played it if the sound card was supported 01:28:13 supported mp3, ogg, wav, and maybe other formats 01:28:19 I want interactive player. 01:28:30 XMMS in console. 01:28:38 Then I don't know of any 01:29:09 Anyway, I'm able to make one more text console. 01:29:44 downloading mozilla and opera takes a lot of resources on a dialup connection :-) 01:31:54 --- quit: arke ("Leaving") 01:36:42 ASau: http://www.stack.nl/~brama/mp3blaster 01:36:52 Maybe this will work for you? 01:40:05 Hm. 01:40:42 What is OSS? Why do author assume it is there? 01:41:01 OSS is the Open Sound System 01:41:29 I understand acronym. 01:41:31 It was widely used in Linux until ALSA matured 01:41:38 What are file names. 01:42:09 what filenames? 01:42:13 Or where to read this. 01:42:46 Read about OSS? 01:42:55 I've installed custom, very stripped down distribution. 01:43:14 http://www.opensound.com/index.html for information on OSS 01:43:23 That's why I need to test if it is there. 01:44:06 --- join: arke (~Chris@wbar8.lax1-4-11-100-108.dsl-verizon.net) joined #forth 01:44:20 ok, guys 01:46:48 Is it compiled into kernel? 01:47:53 ok arke 01:48:00 operation kung fu is go 01:48:54 There would be a kernel module 01:49:12 * crc believes that ALSA support is integrated into recent kernels 01:49:32 And ALSA is compatible with OSS, so it's probably the way to go 01:49:38 http://www.alsa-project.org/ 01:50:11 I *think* OSS has commands like _soundon_ _soundconf_ and the like 01:50:19 But I'm not sure on that 01:50:49 Currently, I have static kernel with no modules support. 01:50:54 XMMS works. 01:51:35 What kernel version are you using? 01:51:41 Though it complains he can't find several libs. 01:51:44 2.4.20 01:52:54 What audio devices exist in /dev? 01:53:13 I just compiled in only those things I use or I'm not aware of. 01:53:27 Linux box is far from here. 01:53:38 I think /dev/dsp* 01:53:53 if you have sound, you probably have OSS or ALSA support in the kernel already 01:54:48 I'd try to use the static binaries so you don't run into library dependencies :-) 01:55:30 * crc looks at the clock - it's almost time for bed 01:55:40 IIRC, I demanded AC97 and sound card support. It works. 01:56:00 What is it, OSS or ALSA? I don't know. 01:56:11 I never bothered before. 01:56:53 Either way it *should* work. mp3player uses the OSS api's which ALSA happens to be compatible with 01:57:12 OK. I'll try. 01:57:29 Maybe it'll work too. 01:57:41 Hopefully it'll work 02:01:03 If that doesn't work, there's also a program called gamp (http://www-users.cs.umn.edu/~wburdick/gamp/) 02:02:22 * crc is happy. Mozilla is working now that I downgraded to 1.6 02:03:58 futhin: what is operation kung fu? 02:05:34 Hm. It is small. 02:05:47 Size is very good. 02:07:40 I know that. I like small programs 02:08:08 everybody do me a favor 02:08:13 /ping me 02:08:16 and tell me what you got 02:08:37 arke: 1sec 02:09:05 arke: why? 02:09:05 arke: 1 s. 02:09:12 ack 02:09:19 becasue I'm lagging when trying to play my game 02:09:23 and, for some reason 02:09:42 windows is only using about 0.25% of my ntwork utilization 02:10:27 crc. Where're your small linux utilities? 02:10:31 http://retro.tunes.org/pub/ ? 02:11:14 The latest floppy image (with source on it) is at retroforth.org/retrolinux.zip 02:11:20 That looks like old RFs. 02:11:47 You'll have to write it to a floppy or mount it as a loopback image to copy off the source file (rlsrc.tgz) 02:12:04 And I'm not 100% sure what all I included on it. I think it has: 02:12:31 cp mv rm ls wc basic retroforth rf-6.30 te sten sh 02:12:40 te & sten are text editors 02:12:47 sh is a really simple shell 02:13:14 There's no support for 'mkdir, rmdir, cd' in the shell at this point. 02:13:49 Later this week I'll have a new image with a better shell and more of the utilities ready 02:14:23 I have mount, umount, and the a port of the KISS shell almost completed 02:15:17 * crc is wondering why there are two copies of RetroForth in the /bin/ directory 02:15:44 Robert: when you wake up, send me a /msg so that I wake up 02:15:44 If one of them fails... 02:16:16 arke: /msg Robert 02:16:19 No, 'retroforth' is built from the unreleased 7.0 codebase, rf-6.30 is the last official build 02:16:58 I wasn't aware that I had left a copy of RetroForth 7 on that image :-) 02:17:49 All of the programs are linked against dietlibc-0.25 02:18:04 Then stripped to make them even smaller 02:18:18 There should be a makefile in there somewhere 02:18:51 * crc is going to go off to bed in 5 minutes... 02:22:46 --- part: crc left #forth 02:38:25 operating kung fu is where i chop y'all up into itty bitty pieces using my hands of furry then make a nice stir fry with assorted vegies, onions, garlic, etc 02:47:26 s/operating/operation 02:47:27 wow i'm tired 03:14:48 --- join: qFox (C00K13S@cp12172-a.roose1.nb.home.nl) joined #forth 05:23:22 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 06:36:21 futhin opera IS good 06:36:22 grrr 06:36:25 :) 07:01:40 --- join: madwork_ (~madgarden@204.138.110.15) joined #forth 07:14:34 --- quit: I440r ("Leaving") 07:15:09 --- join: fridge_ (~Jim@CommSecureAustPtyLtd.sb1.optus.net.au) joined #forth 07:47:50 --- join: MrReach (~spam@209.181.43.190) joined #forth 07:47:50 --- mode: ChanServ set +o MrReach 08:05:39 Hi MrReach 08:08:06 greets 09:09:51 --- join: wossname (wossname@HSE-MTL-ppp60637.qc.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 09:18:51 wossname! 09:18:52 :) 09:18:53 hi 09:19:01 hello arke 09:19:06 'sup 09:19:54 nothing. 09:20:00 blehrg 09:20:03 waiting for Robert to get back : 09:20:04 :) 09:20:39 Hi 09:20:40 I am back 09:20:57 Robert: Hi :) 09:21:11 Morning (again) :) 09:21:12 Robert: hold on one sec, I gotta start my F ssytem 09:21:26 And IRC from it? 09:21:38 I forgive you. 09:22:33 heh 09:22:39 once I write an IRC client for it, sure :) 09:24:24 I wonder how hard IP via SLIP is. 09:24:36 That would be pretty neat. 09:25:03 But I guess some other protocol would be OK, too. Why not design a minimalistic networking protocol for F? ;) 09:26:46 ;) 09:26:58 Robert: for now, I need to figure out how to code forth. 09:27:04 and maybe how to save it out to disk or such. 09:29:29 In F? 09:29:38 yeah. 09:29:40 It's not hard. 09:29:49 You haven't heard of my newest plans yet, ey? :) 09:29:58 Uhm... But I forgot how to do it. Check the source. 09:30:04 I don't think so 09:30:08 Which plans? 09:30:19 KEep teh initial F 09:30:23 just modify whats needed. 09:30:27 Start interface there. 09:30:35 work F until 1.4, _then_ rewrite 09:30:59 and do it such that I need not modify teh interface when porting from F to F2 :) 09:32:05 ack shit 09:32:12 I have to recompile F with US keymap :( 09:32:39 * arke proceeds to do so 09:32:51 Robert: how do I, btw, your build system is very awkward 09:33:28 Hehe. 09:33:36 Why? 09:33:59 why not just use a _global_ makefile which builds mkdist etc? :) 09:34:01 anyway 09:34:05 %define kbd_default_map keymap_se 09:34:09 Line 22, kbd.asm 09:34:11 * arke proceeds to try to figure it out. 09:34:14 oh, i knew that one 09:34:20 I'm just talking about how to rebuild 09:34:24 Oh. 09:34:46 Run bin/build 09:35:06 It compiles everything. 09:36:50 ok 09:36:55 what should I give mkdist? 09:38:22 Robert.... 09:38:24 tell em 09:38:25 :( 09:38:26 er 09:38:26 me 09:38:27 :( 09:38:54 Uhm. 09:39:16 ./mkdist /dev/fd0 boot.bin kernel.bin core.f 09:39:18 Run that 09:39:39 core.f copied to bin/ by bin/build, do NOT modify it. 09:39:57 Modify code/core.f instead. 09:40:51 will that mkdist command write it out to disk? 09:40:58 because ... uum ... I have no disk 09:41:07 and ... uum ... this is linux in vmware 09:42:59 --- quit: fridge_ ("Leaving") 09:43:03 I want it to write out to an image. 09:43:09 Sure. 09:43:10 however, just saying "image" doesn't do it. 09:43:14 hrm 09:43:18 maybe I should "touch" it first? 09:43:26 Yes. 09:43:29 aah 09:43:29 ok 09:43:30 worked 09:43:32 thankies 09:43:40 Just create a 1440 kB file 09:43:47 Possibly smaller. 09:44:02 er 09:44:04 just touched it.... 09:44:06 and it worked... 09:44:08 * arke hopes 09:50:02 Hehe 09:50:35 --- join: arke_ (~Chris@wbar8.lax1-4-11-100-108.dsl-verizon.net) joined #forth 09:50:53 forgive, had a power outage 09:52:32 Hrm, OK, I forgive you. 09:52:35 Tested it yet? 09:56:17 can't. 09:56:23 Gotta shut down, Dad messing with fuses. 09:56:29 I'll be back in 15 minutes 09:56:36 --- quit: arke_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 10:01:48 --- join: Herkamire (stjohns@h000094d30ba2.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 10:03:44 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 10:08:30 --- quit: arke (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 10:09:58 Hi Herkamire, tathi 10:10:09 --- join: arke (~Chris@wbar8.lax1-4-11-100-108.dsl-verizon.net) joined #forth 10:11:42 Hi Robert 10:13:21 hi 10:13:25 hello INTJ-channel 10:13:52 hi 10:17:52 I, as an INTP, take offense to that! 10:17:55 :P 10:17:59 --- nick: madwork_ -> madwork 10:20:10 :) 10:28:41 so do i, as ... whatever i was 10:30:31 A non-categorized geek? 10:31:03 qfox was intj afaik 10:31:32 Robert has not revealed his true identity yet ;) 10:31:51 which test was spread around here? 10:32:14 http://209.15.29.56/myersbriggs/personhome.htm 10:35:13 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 10:35:53 oh i was? 10:35:57 then i take that back :p 10:36:04 herk had it on his wiki 10:40:39 well, i got intp again :o 10:43:04 The P stands for Procrastinate. 10:43:19 i think that's true ;D 10:44:28 oh those fashion words again 10:45:48 I am INTP 10:46:07 arke, I thought you were ISFP last time. 10:46:14 Or ISTP 10:47:43 thats what I thought too. 10:47:51 but I just took it again. 10:50:06 if I could judge myself accurately, I would say that I am ISTP 10:50:44 S Sensing 10:50:44 People who prefer Sensing tend to focus on the present and the concrete information gained from their senses. 10:50:44 10:50:44 or 10:50:44 10:50:45 N iNtuition 10:50:47 People who prefer Intuition tend to focus on the future, with a view toward patterns and possibilities. 10:50:49 retry test thinking longer time, arke 10:51:24 ack 10:51:34 who cares 10:51:43 madwork: yeah, S is for me. 10:51:45 stupid personalities 10:51:53 we do, we're geeks :P 10:51:54 good thing I don't have one! 10:52:06 fridge, read it? :) 10:52:07 we can invent you one 10:54:09 Fridge is not a person, he's an AI. 10:54:19 works for me 10:58:14 --- join: I440r (~mark4@168-215-246-243.gen.twtelecom.net) joined #forth 10:59:47 Or is that an AL. Hmm. 11:02:45 qFox: nope, I've been asleep, then I came to work 11:04:49 kay 11:08:07 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@66-74-218-202.san.rr.com) joined #forth 11:08:09 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja 11:16:35 http://herkamire.com/jason/forth_channel_personality_types 11:28:59 Yes, I440r is Mark Manning 11:30:09 * mur is INTJ 11:35:12 --- join: Fractal (jah@selling.kernels.to.linus.torvalds.at.hcsw.org) joined #forth 11:36:20 mur> infj 11:36:24 is waht i am 11:36:25 :) 11:36:53 i guess serg was too, but not sure 11:48:57 serg was of the 'refuses to take personality tests'-personality type 11:49:04 haha 11:50:39 oh 11:50:43 now i remember 11:51:14 * mur remembers that there had been 6 intj's but might be wrong 11:52:03 mur> http://herkamire.com/jason/forth_channel_personality_types 11:52:13 yes 11:52:25 or then i might be wrong as i am not on list and someone else might have been INPT 11:52:29 INTP instead 11:56:47 --- join: Teratogen (~leontopod@67.40.69.97) joined #forth 11:56:50 sally forth! 12:00:20 Heh 12:00:24 You're everywhere. 12:00:31 Write a MINIX Forth. 12:02:53 --- quit: arke (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 12:02:56 --- join: arke_ (~Chris@wbar8.lax1-4-11-100-108.dsl-verizon.net) joined #forth 12:03:46 sally forth over the forthers and rain forth on them all, lala and so forth 12:07:17 =) 12:07:22 Roberto 12:07:33 rat0r juped my nick on efnet 12:07:35 that little brat 12:07:37 he's a trouble maker 12:09:00 --- quit: arke_ (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 12:09:05 --- join: arke__ (~Chris@wbar8.lax1-4-11-100-108.dsl-verizon.net) joined #forth 12:11:53 kill him 12:23:05 kill yourself 12:27:44 OK time to get some food, and then to clean my room, because I have a nasty ant infestation going on right about now... 12:29:11 same here, good lord 12:29:29 but i've put off cleaning for quite a while. last night i killed 12 ants 12:29:43 just those that came too close to my keyboard, too 12:29:56 I've got a train of ants leading to the outside. 12:30:11 I'm going to have to somehow invite more spiders into my room. 12:30:13 wow, it's not that bad here... yet ;p 12:30:17 spiders eat ants? 12:30:34 Oh yeah, the trick is getting them to walk into a web. 12:30:49 Jumping spiders and wolf spiders don't even have webs -- they actively hunt for insects. 12:31:00 Those spiders would easily take care of any ants in the area. 12:31:26 good thing to buy, then, but i don't think the pet store carries any :p 12:31:46 Hehe 12:31:55 heh, kc5tja, sucks to be you 12:31:56 We have some here. Mostly daddy longlegs though. 12:32:26 MrReach: Yeah. But, it happens every year -- it's just nature. 12:32:48 i remember when we lived in SoCal could never get rid of the ants 12:33:05 they're not bad here in Spokane, they freeze every winter 12:35:39 Ants only become a problem during the summer months here. 12:35:41 hey, I440r, you awake? 12:35:50 They're nowhere to be seen in the winter. 12:36:00 Anyway, I'm off. brb 12:36:02 --- quit: Teratogen (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 12:36:09 ok 12:37:14 good luck kc5tja 12:39:09 do you get huntsman spiders in the US? 12:39:18 they're goot insect eaters I've found 12:39:22 not by that name 12:39:47 might check wikipedia 12:40:22 --- join: Sonarman (~matt@ppp-66-124-254-80.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 12:40:36 ooh! 12:40:46 wikipedia has done up their webpage 12:41:49 --- join: ASau (~asau@158.250.48.204) joined #forth 12:41:55 The Huntsman spider is a common spider found in Australia, New Zealand, S.E. Asia, the Middle East in areas near the Mediterranean Sea, Florida in the U.S., and quite possibly in many other tropical and semi-tropical areas.. While potentially very large (up to 15cm across), and quite a fearsome sight, they are harmless to humans. They do bite if provoked but the victim will suffer only minor swelling and localised pain and will recover in a day or so. 12:41:56 Dobryjj vecher! 12:42:02 fridge: blech 12:42:16 i like the old design better 12:42:27 ya, me too 12:42:29 15 cm is nothing 12:42:44 the horse spider is HUGE lol 12:42:44 so, yes, they can be found in the USA 12:42:49 For spider? 12:42:55 oh, good, I440r, you're here 12:43:09 the one i saw was as big as the brush my mom threw at it (from dustpan and brush) 12:43:13 I'm rewriting the structs package ... wanted to ask you how I did it before 12:43:22 you dont remember? 12:43:28 err dont youhave isforth ? lol 12:43:33 nope, been a couple of years 12:43:45 oh? is it in there? 12:43:47 well its in isforth 12:43:51 of corse :) 12:43:53 oh, brb 12:43:54 src/struct.f 12:44:01 heh, duh! 12:44:18 :) 12:44:53 i invented that right after you explained it to me :) 12:44:54 hehe 12:45:49 handy bit of code 12:45:52 yup 12:46:02 i use it in the isforth memory manager 12:47:41 heh, thanks for the credit 12:47:50 lol 12:47:58 you didnt know i credited you? 12:48:01 well duh! 12:48:18 yall need to look at my sources more :P 12:49:50 heh 12:53:27 erm ... that's not my code 12:53:33 its close 12:53:39 i isforthified it 12:53:58 ok 12:54:00 but you should be able to use it as a reference 12:54:37 i rmemeber I had this *BIZARRE* nested DOES> clause 12:54:59 erm i dont remember that 12:55:11 define "nested does>" 12:55:20 there was a creating word that built creating words 12:55:25 --- quit: arke__ (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 12:55:34 oh ok 12:56:28 : someword CREATE ( comma some stuff ) DOES> ( dosomething with comma stuff that creates new word ) DOES> ( stuff for the created created word) ; 12:56:48 thats nothing! i accidentally created the race of machine intelligences that took over the planet in Matrix using a quadruple nested does> 12:57:12 futhin: well, it was extremely bad coding practice 12:57:42 but I chose to do that way anyway to avoid a nesting when calling a field word 12:58:05 field words get called LOTS, and it's important that they're fairly fast 12:58:08 someone on CLF tried to do a state machine using nested does> 12:58:16 ooh 12:58:19 DOES> is leet 12:58:21 every time you execute the does> word it patched itself to do the next state 12:58:21 we must abuse it! 12:58:26 BAD code 12:58:36 and it didnt work either 12:58:46 well, it depends what the final syntax looked like 12:59:15 : blah create being does> state-1 does> state-2 does> state-3 again ; 12:59:16 ugh 12:59:24 erm begin even grr 12:59:26 ack! 12:59:44 exactly 12:59:59 it works perfectly if you only use it to create ONE state machine word lol 13:00:00 ack ack 13:00:07 and its not a very good state machine 13:00:14 the reasons for breaking code conventions are pretty straightforward ... and that doesnt satisfy them 13:00:15 it can only do 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 13:00:39 only two reasons I can think of ... 13:00:48 1. dramatic increase in speed 13:01:04 2. express problem set in elegant terms 13:02:11 3: obfuscate the sources to make it impossible for noob's to understand 13:02:12 !!!! 13:02:19 heh 13:02:41 lol 13:03:00 i only use magic in one place in isforth :) 13:03:28 who was it that wrote the web server that stored the header fields as forth words, and runtime dictionary searches to get the data? 13:03:49 wow ive not seen that 13:03:59 oh! it was peyson 13:04:02 payson 13:04:16 god it was strange 13:04:22 aha 13:05:00 he writes some hella good stuff, IMO, but that wasn't some of it 13:05:39 lol 13:18:19 it looks as though the huntsman spider is the one they used for filming harry potter 13:18:31 big SOBs 13:19:17 no, wait, the HP spiders were fairly small 13:21:20 * MrReach tries to remember how he did extended and nested structs 13:21:45 just define a structure within a structure 13:22:06 a structure definition is just a constant size 13:22:24 so make a byte field inside the structure equal to the size of the structure you wish to nest 13:22:42 i didnt do enumerations tho 13:23:05 I think I did something like 1 structs: fieldname 13:23:34 enumerations is a seperate package, in a different file 13:24:23 ya 13:24:30 yo know i just thunked of something 13:24:37 have you searched the logs for the code? 13:24:41 you MIGHT have pasted it! 13:25:03 oh! no that hadn't occured to me 13:25:14 but i'll go ahead and code from scratch again 13:25:31 just trying to think of how I did it,and how I might want to change it 13:25:40 :) 13:26:03 that nested DOES> still bugs me, but it'll probably stay 13:26:18 --- join: AshyIsMe (~ashy@smm-103-145-219-137.tvlres.jcu.edu.au) joined #forth 13:26:35 --- part: AshyIsMe left #forth 13:26:42 heh 13:28:21 I440r: what does DEFERS do in isforth? 13:29:44 where is this channel archived?? 13:29:53 tunes.org/~nef/logs/forth 13:29:55 or 13:29:57 thanks 13:30:12 http://meme.b9.com/ 13:30:44 the meme site allows you to grep the logs, which is nice 13:33:34 it creates a deferred chain 13:33:53 as an example theres the deferred word "default" 13:34:11 if you want to patch into the default chain (gets run when isforth is started) you can do 13:34:28 : init-my-thingie defers default blah blah blah ; 13:34:35 ok 13:34:35 where blah blah blah initializes your shit 13:35:00 does it work by defining a new default which calls the old default which calls the old default which and so on? 13:35:07 there's got to be a more elegant way to do that 13:35:13 defers takes what default is currently deferred to and makes your word call that 13:35:21 and it then makes default deferred to your word 13:35:41 thats basically what it does but without redefining default 13:35:47 default is a deferred word. 13:35:52 oh, yeah that's nicer 13:35:52 you can do it by hand witth 13:35:54 :) 13:36:17 : my-default [ ' default >body @ , last @ is default ] blah blah blah ; 13:36:44 default now points to my-default 13:36:50 cool 13:36:57 the first thing in my-default is a call to where default used to point to 13:37:12 i didnt invent it :) 13:37:13 heh 13:37:25 atexit is the complement of default 13:37:28 no, I think zimmer popularized it 13:37:35 its a deferred chain that gets called at exit 13:37:43 it was in fpc yes 13:39:29 it kinda screws up the whole point of defering the word to begin with, though 13:40:45 not really 13:40:59 i guess it works ok for incrementally adding semantics to a word 13:41:27 thats not how i think of it tho 13:42:00 im not thinking of the previous semantics of "default" 13:42:03 how *DO* you think of it? 13:42:15 i dont care what else default does as long as it initializes my module 13:42:25 i KNOW default is run at boot. i want my init run at boot too 13:42:46 i can totally override default 13:42:50 ' my-app is default 13:43:04 is that the only place you use DEFERS is for the boot chain? 13:43:06 at boot NONE of default will be executed, just MY app 13:43:16 atexit 13:43:38 : my-exit defers atexit blah blah ; 13:43:41 de-initialize my shit 13:43:42 heh 13:44:14 you prefer this over the more generalized execution chain? 13:44:29 define "more generalized" 13:44:33 more generalized execution chain? 13:44:59 another option is to have default defined as : default noop noop noop ....... ; 13:45:04 chains can be execution chains, or struct chains, or descriptor chains ... whatever 13:45:10 and restrict the number of items that can be initialized 13:45:37 you can walk a chain - applying some function to each item 13:45:48 this is a self managing chain 13:45:57 yes, basically 13:46:07 i dont have to allocate memory for an array 13:46:09 or a "nesting chain" 13:46:22 allot memory for a pointer 13:46:42 comma does that for me :) 13:46:50 the dictionary, for example, is a fairly classical chain 13:47:04 but that is non existant after a turnkey 13:47:12 (a hashed dictionary is several chains) 13:47:17 ' my-app is quit turnkey myapp 13:47:27 no, I was just think about examples of chains 13:47:30 keeps default intact but makes your apps main the inner loop 13:47:31 or 13:47:41 ' my-app is default turnkey myapp 13:47:52 the only thing in default is "my-app" 13:48:07 ok 13:48:34 how would you implement a word chain ? 13:48:53 oooh! 13:49:14 if a word could remove itself from the middle of a chain you could do multi tasking that way :) 13:49:24 the task list is just a circular chain! 13:49:29 exactly 13:49:41 chains are a bit more versatile 13:49:41 oh man NOW i gotta implement that lol 13:50:04 hmmm ... wordlist ... 13:50:18 a task is a word with two entries. a call to the word that executes the task followed by a call to the next task in the chain 13:50:25 don't put in array, though 13:50:27 that would be cool! 13:50:28 no 13:50:41 comma into dictionary 13:50:49 a deferred chain where the last word in the chain is linked to teh first! 13:51:19 hrm 13:51:22 no. this wont work 13:51:26 not exactly as is 13:51:39 each task will have to have its own stacks too 13:51:40 forgot that 13:51:46 the items in the chain would have to be allocated from heap at runtime 13:51:59 chains can be in heap, np 13:52:03 well i can do that too... my memory manager is damned good :) 13:52:13 no. the chain should be in dictionary 13:52:17 in list space 13:52:21 jsut ordinary words 13:52:25 the pointer to the head of the chain is 13:52:38 and possibly the current item 13:53:08 oh man i can actually "allocate" each tasks stacks :) 13:53:27 well, wouldn't yu anyway? 13:53:33 but can i seal one taks into a particular vocabulary without sealing the rest 13:53:34 what were you thinking? 13:53:45 i think each task would need its own search order for that 13:54:05 more than that, only one task can compile 13:54:06 i mean i can use my memory mangers allocator 13:54:16 no 13:54:23 that wont be a requirement 13:54:26 or... 13:54:44 hrm 13:55:13 i dont think multiple compilations would break anything as long as you didnt pause till your words were created 13:55:29 it would most definatly have to be cooperative 13:55:33 but thats always prefereable 13:55:34 "critical section" 13:56:48 man i cant afford to start developing this till after ive documented everything else lol 13:56:58 if i start coding this i wont document anything else till im finished! 13:56:59 lol 13:57:00 so you wouldn't need mutiple search orders 13:57:09 yep 13:57:14 i need to finish documenting first heh 13:57:22 yes i would 13:57:29 this is for the mud game! 13:57:43 don't forget to support whatever type of threading is available on your platform 13:57:48 where each person is locked into a search order based on their player type 13:57:57 i.e. player, operator, developer 13:58:16 didn't know you had let futhin talk you into building a MUD 13:58:34 well it was on my todo list long before i met futhin lol 13:58:52 i play materiamagica alot 13:58:59 and i have issues with it that i want to resolve 13:59:15 and i would love to be able to modify the game LIVE - not require a reboot just to make a change lol 13:59:40 yeah, that is a nuisance for the players 13:59:47 MM reboots alot 14:00:56 heh, that's gonna be an odd parser 14:01:10 what is ? 14:01:39 parse, find and execute exactly one word from input stream, it parses input, remainer is discarded 14:01:45 the parser for the MUD 14:02:00 why would it discard ? 14:02:24 so that any extra characters wouldn't cause errors 14:02:41 they wouldnt 14:02:49 they would just cause aborts :) 14:03:09 or rather mudabort" what ?" 14:03:27 so that that task didnt jump to quit but to mudquit 14:04:02 mudquit wont allow numbers to be placed on the stack 14:04:10 just word executions 14:04:55 right 14:05:02 strings are posfix? 14:05:05 postfix? 14:05:18 SAY You're a moron! 14:05:44 ? 14:05:54 "SAY You're a moron!" 14:06:09 i dont think players would like 6 drop torch 14:06:17 or all drop torch 14:06:19 lol 14:07:03 or would that be ... 14:07:07 "/SAY You're a moron!" 14:07:35 dunno 14:07:46 im not quite decided on that yet heh 14:08:14 they could probably handle both "drop torch" and "torch drop" 14:09:02 the second method introduces some fascinating OO concepts 14:09:12 lol 14:09:26 the object parses the command, each object type understands its own words 14:09:41 drop 6.torch 14:09:47 or drop 6 torch 14:09:50 or drop torch 14:09:54 what is the "6." prefix for? 14:09:57 or drop all tporch 14:10:07 to drop 6 torches. thats how materiamagia does it 14:10:29 ah! 14:10:29 ohh no im wrong 14:10:32 drop 6.torch 14:10:39 drops the 6th torch in your inventory 14:10:48 not very useful for torches but for scrolls its different 14:10:50 right, ok 14:10:53 yep 14:10:57 drop 6.scroll might be to drop a specific scroll 14:11:40 or refer to scroll by name 14:11:49 possible 14:12:08 make.me.smarter drop 14:12:12 heh 14:13:07 lol 14:17:11 give bear troll 14:17:28 god, that goes *WAY* back ... CP/M 14:18:54 lol 14:19:11 i used to play scot adamns adventure games 14:23:38 --- join: lalalim_ (~lalalim@p508ABAD6.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 14:25:27 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 14:26:26 Dobryjj vecher, lalalim_ and tathi! 14:27:21 Privet, ASau. 14:28:12 later, folks 14:28:16 Bye, MrReach 14:28:24 --- part: MrReach left #forth 14:35:18 --- quit: lalalim (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 14:45:39 back, for now. 14:45:41 Still cleaning. 14:48:47 --- quit: fridge ("What have the romans ever done for us?") 15:01:14 HMMM 15:01:34 does an isp give you trouble for sending an email to about 50 addresses cc? 15:02:12 i'm sick n tired of getting spam, and seeing the same cc targets for the spam over and over again. all users at my isp 15:02:15 Only if you draw attention to yourself. 15:02:35 past 3 days, over 50 unique targets, and those are just in my alphabetical range :s 15:02:49 Are you the one sending the mail? 15:02:55 If not, you have nothing to worry about. 15:02:57 only this one, complaint 15:03:17 cc'ing to the other targets, mainly to the complain address of my isp 15:03:25 Complaint for what? For spamming? You're contributing to the spamming problem if so. 15:04:56 too late. only 3 addresses returned unknown. 15:05:44 btw, we're getting about 20 spam emails a day now 15:07:01 qFox: Oh, is that all? :) 15:07:08 and i for one am very protective about my personal email addy ... 15:07:14 Forget. 15:07:18 Forget it rather. 15:07:23 Your e-mail address can be guessed. 15:07:27 true 15:07:39 And there are software packages out there in the underground that do precisely that. 15:07:47 I've seen it on my own mail server when working for Armored Internet. 15:07:51 well worst case scenario... i get 50 emails back saying what you said 15:07:51 They just sit there. 15:07:53 all those comic book heros our outdated 15:07:55 aaaaaaaa@armored.net 15:07:59 aaaaaaab@armored.net 15:08:03 best case scenario, @home acts and adds a spam filter 15:08:05 aaaaaaac@armored.net (etc, etc, etc) 15:08:09 we need vigilantes like "the punisher", except that they hunt down spammers and their ilk 15:08:14 yar i understand kc5tja 15:08:28 Hiii!!!... Sorry for not msging you before hand. I had a wonderful time looking at your profile online. 15:09:29 I would like to have a Baysian filter installed at work -- I've already brought it to the system administrator's attention, and my manager. 15:09:48 baysian? 15:09:58 ah there's the auto response reply 15:09:59 :p 15:10:17 is that the "you must reply to this email first or your email will not be sent" filter? 15:10:24 that one combined with b/w filter is the best imo 15:11:50 No. 15:12:29 A Baysian performs statistical analysis of every word in a message to determine the likelihood of it being spam. But most importantly, it also *learns* what is spam and what isn't based on how you flag a message. 15:12:34 So it needs to go through a learning cycle. 15:12:42 oh yeah, i remember 15:12:43 But it's currently the most accurate filter we have. 15:12:58 wasnt that like very very effective with scanning? 15:13:09 remember seeing some testresults 15:13:14 Scanning? 15:13:20 screening... 15:13:26 filtering 15:13:27 w/e 15:13:29 Yes, that's the point. 15:13:41 So far, although probable, none have given false positives. 15:13:51 thats what i meant. 15:15:01 hotmail installed a pretty effective filter a few months ago. but perhaps they merely blocked known sources because lately i see the spambox filling up with spam again 15:15:03 on a daily basis 15:15:24 (there was a period where i wouldnt get any spam, and so no email at all, on my hotmail account for msn) 15:15:44 qFox: Both Yahoo! and HotMail permit spam from Microsoft. :( 15:15:50 Even if you continue to flag it as spam. 15:15:57 well, yahoo is still evil 15:16:09 ok i'm partially to blame for that :p 15:16:39 its the first addy i ever made online and i've used it for my register-email at ... well whenever i need to enter an email 15:16:55 the thing must get about 50-100 spam emails a day 15:17:00 Yep. 15:17:22 i dont understand how this spamming method can still be worth it :\ 15:17:49 especially the money and sex related spam 15:17:58 spamming must be fun! 15:18:12 perhaps thats it 15:18:19 --- part: I440r left #forth 15:18:37 Because suckers are born every minute. 15:19:00 And the problem is, there **ARE** people who **DO** respond to spam mail! :( 15:19:29 Since spam is so cheap to send (compared to how much a spammer will receive in exchange for sending the mail!), even a 0.1% response rate is plenty lucrative. 15:19:58 i would be very surprised if they get that rate you know 15:20:08 They do. 15:20:19 really... you're kidding.. on how many sent? 15:20:33 Millions sent, perhaps a hundred thousand responses. 15:20:40 yikes, thats just scary 15:20:46 err....wait. thousands. Sory. 15:20:53 still is 15:20:55 Yeah. 15:21:09 why yes i would like some v1agra 15:21:09 Just goes to show you how retarded this world's population is. 15:21:15 Yep. 15:21:28 i mean, one or two morons, i guess. but at this time and age, thousands of ppl responding to this type of spam? 15:21:45 there are millions of people on the internet 15:21:58 I remember when a spammer infiltrated armored.net back in the early days. We constantly got mail on how we "misspelled our product offerings," and how we should actually consider hiring people who knew the English language. 15:21:58 they are still people 15:22:01 yes but its not like that population grows by a million a day, does it? 15:22:07 These people did NOT complain about receiving the spam, only how the spam was written. 15:22:11 i mean nowadays 15:22:23 people nowadays are as smart as ever before 15:22:46 qFox: Population necessarily grows faster with time. It's a bounded exponential growth. 15:23:16 kc5tja, that's old model. 15:23:21 hm yes but i think there's a steadyily lowering increase in this 15:23:23 I believe I read an interesting metric somewhere: a person is born every six minutes. 15:23:23 also 15:23:34 what makes an exponential growth "bounded? 15:23:35 population growth of the western world is lessening, and there's a lot of immigration to account for 15:23:38 ppl who grow up with internet, are imo less bound to act to spam 15:23:44 Sonarman: Limited resources, like food. 15:24:00 kc5tja, this is not the case of USA and Europe. 15:24:05 ASau: Sources? 15:24:18 cia world factbook ;o 15:24:22 School book on Geography. 15:24:24 ppl who are new to the internet, usually learn fast that spam is bullshit, and those retards that dont, should really learn after their first experience 15:24:40 so imo, yes its surprising that there are still thousands of responds at this time 15:24:42 ASau: That doesn't help me. I would like an actual model name, or some paper which describes it. Something I can read for myself. 15:24:51 I don't know if you are taught this in the USA. 15:25:01 ASau: That depends. 15:25:17 http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/ 15:25:22 ASau: But so far as I'm aware population growth is closely modeled with the bounded exponential formula. 15:25:25 for example, my country, canada, has a 0.94% growth rate 15:25:29 that site is freaky btw 15:25:31 :) 15:25:34 You can search for Lottka-Volterra model on population growth and related. 15:25:46 imagine having to build that thing. 15:26:26 no but really. i would expect a dropping to perhaps hunderds, of ppl who respond to spam 15:26:30 It is the vase of non-linear dynamics or such. 15:26:41 wossname: That doesn't deny that the logarithmic growth equation is correct though. 15:26:59 Non-linear differencial equations. 15:27:23 well, you could cast backwards with that growth rate and look at population levels then 15:27:34 kc5tja> whatever the growth scale is like, kids who grow up with internet, are less prone to be influenced by spam, i think 15:27:46 that might be oversimplifying, but i'm fairly confident you'd find overall growth rates are dropping 15:28:12 qFox: Just like folks who grow up with TV are less likely to be influenced by the TV commercials? Previous evidence suggests otherwise. 15:28:31 hm perhaps i'm just looking it from my own point of view then 15:28:43 wossname: Yes, they are, because we're exhausting our resources. 15:28:51 i dont care about tv commercials. the only effect it has on me, is "product knowing", whatever the english term is 15:28:58 there's no laws against having a ton of children 15:29:03 that the name of the product sticks to your mind 15:29:09 if people wanted to, they would, screw the resources 15:29:18 resources haven't come into it yet, here in the west 15:29:19 wossname> except when you live in china ;) 15:29:20 The oil crisis charts that were drawn up some 20 years ago are rather faithfully predicting observed price trends and difficulties in refinement and transportation of goods. 15:29:25 qfox: ;p 15:29:49 yeah oil is fun. i wonder what this world is like in 30 years, if we make it that far 15:29:58 whether resources are being exhausted are not have no impact upon the population growth rate at this point in time 15:30:05 30$ for a plastic bag :p 15:30:07 wossname: I apologize, but here in America, we practically don't have any forests left. For us, we ARE running out of resources, VERY fast. 15:30:15 Why the heck do you think we're always going to war? 15:30:21 lol 15:30:25 to steal trees from iraq? 15:30:33 isnt iraq sand and oil only? 15:30:35 wossname: No. To take OIL from Iraq. 15:30:35 :p 15:30:41 oh i thought sand 15:30:42 Our oil reserves are dead. 15:30:44 All of them. 15:30:49 Well, except the ones in national parks. 15:31:11 its mind boggling to see how much oil is consumed daily, and how long we can survive on current reserves... 15:31:12 Which are preparing for inevitable drilling thanks to the current administration's "forward looking" policy on energy. 15:31:17 or at least projected 15:31:18 we need direct matter to energy conversion >:o 15:31:33 oil usage and price does boggle the mind 15:31:38 then try to imagine the size of this oilfield under the ground 0_o 15:32:17 wossname> if possible, it wont be realized untill the oil is out and the oil companies wont be there anymore to stop it. 15:32:29 cars can run on water, why dont they (majority) 15:32:38 Because cars CANNOT run on water. 15:32:45 I really don't know where this misconception came from. 15:32:47 well partially 15:32:51 No, not even. 15:32:57 i do know that there are companies working to make hydrogen based fuel cells a common reality 15:33:05 Right. 15:33:09 water -> electrosys -> hydrogen ;o 15:33:11 And where are we going to get the hydrogen from? 15:33:14 --- join: SolarFire[ (SolarFire@pD9E59DEB.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 15:33:19 but i don't know how much the electrosys (sp?) costs 15:33:25 Right and where does the electrolysis energy source come from? 15:33:29 solar power? 15:33:33 wind turbines? 15:33:34 Bzzzt. 15:33:38 Bzzzt. 15:33:43 Oil. 15:33:43 yar chemistry tought me that the water>hydrogen process takes energy 15:33:44 dude, nuclear energy 15:33:48 so your net result is 0 15:33:54 Nope, still needs oil. 15:33:56 anyone know anything about secure ebooks that can't be warezed? 15:34:00 hydroelectricity 15:34:07 i'm checking ebookpro but its windows-only 15:34:13 futhin> no such thing. nothing "cant be warezed" 15:34:19 Because here's the deal: anything that's moving requires lubrication to have a long life. 15:34:23 And lubrication requires oil. 15:34:27 silicon-based lubricants? 15:34:36 wossname: Takes oil to prepare. 15:34:40 i suppose most plastics require oil as well 15:34:50 kc5tja> we'll see in a couple of years ;) 15:34:55 Plastics basically *are* solid, thin forms of oil. :) 15:35:22 The fact is, hydrogen is a lost cause. 15:35:24 I love hydrogen. 15:35:26 I really do. 15:35:34 But it's entirely too expensive to produce, and it's extremely lossy. 15:35:54 SolarFire[ and I was talking about this awhile back. 15:36:23 where does oil come into the production of solar cell arrays? manufacturing techinques, or somewhere in the final product? 15:36:32 Total system efficiency literally isn't any better than what you'd get in most gasoline engines of today. 15:36:53 Mostly in manufacturing, but somewhat in actual operation. 15:37:14 i personally wouldnt be surprised, that once oil runs out, the industry "magicly" discovers a new alternative 15:37:30 the day after... 15:37:34 Because to get the most amount of solar energy conversion, you need to face the solar panels completely orthogonal to the incoming solar radiation. that requires motors, and that requires grease, which is primarily (or is made from) oil. 15:37:35 TOMORROW! 15:38:04 how about vegetable oils? it's not possible to turn those into lubricants, etc? 15:38:21 qFox: ebookpro requires connecting to the internet to confirm user/password and then randomly connects to the internet after that 15:38:28 Vegetable oils are very good for lubrication, actually. 15:38:28 just clutter some stream with a shitload of uhm, blablabla electricity making dams 15:38:29 kc5tja. Actually, there is one example of reduced oil usage. 15:38:50 qFox: That'll spell ecological disaster. Is that what you want? 15:39:03 futhin> oh, well what disables grabbing the data from the internet once and publicing it once gathered? 15:39:07 here in ontario there's quite a lot of hydroelectric power all ready 15:39:14 hydro, right 15:39:20 kc5tja. In Germany, in 1920-30, oil was substituted with coal. 15:39:21 Yep, I know. 15:39:25 what kind of oil is needed in the operation of nuclear power plants? 15:39:59 ASau: Yes. And with the concomitant health effects too. Just look at Britain during the same era to see how devastating the effects of coal are on people. Or on American miners. 15:40:12 wossname: Something needs to lube the steam turbines. 15:40:23 vegetable oil couldn't do this kind of lubrication? 15:40:26 wossname: And steam turbines spin somewhere in the 50 to 60 thousand RPM range. 15:40:52 wossname: Not without breaking down. It'd have to be chemically prepared first. But vegetable oil can serve as a viable base product to start with. 15:41:16 AFAIK neither Britain nor States had no such technologies as Germany. 15:41:16 hah, what a mad man: 15:41:19 "It is time for us to start getting sane about how we produce energy and how we use energy," said Charris Ford, an alternative fuels advocate in Telluride, Colorado who drives a modified diesel truck fueled by used vegetable oil that he collects from local restaurants. 15:41:21 qFox: nothing, with enough effort anything can be hacked. the goal is to make the effort high enough that it is unlikely, and since the ebook is for a niche market, chances aren there won't be much hax0ring 15:41:27 I mean those times. 15:41:49 futhin> true, there must be some demand for it at least :) 15:41:59 kc5tja: well, i see the outlines of an alternative power supply framework there. but i could agree that it's not all there yet 15:42:01 but there are alot of ppl with alot of free time 15:42:04 wossname: My last day at In-N-Out, I helped a man who refilled his car with our used vegetable oil. Very, very, very cool stuff. 15:42:22 wossname: My opinion, and this is still my opinion, is this: think green. Period. 15:42:55 BTW, kc5tja, maybe you'd be interested. 15:43:10 realisticly speaking, power consumation will not drop or change. not in the states, not in europa, or anywhere. i really dont see it happen, untill perhaps we run out of oil and are forced. but even then there will be half the world doing so, and the other half just raping other means (coal, etc) for the purpose 15:43:11 kc5tja: i gathered ;o 15:43:12 The only way to dig ourselves out of an oil-induced depression is to start growing your own food, using the waste products for fuel, and using more thermodynamically efficient engines (e.g., Stirling Engine, Ericcson engine, etc) for rotary power. 15:43:48 kc5tja. I've read a wonderful article on cuban traffic system. 15:43:58 qFox: This assumes that the population will remain constant. The problem is, *ALL* the world's agriculture depends *heavily* (more than we do with our cars!) on oil. 15:44:03 It's frightening stuff. 15:44:14 kc5tja. That's very good example how to run with less oil. 15:44:14 ASau: Hmm... 15:44:20 that will change, no doubt. 15:44:23 ASau: yes, I'd definitely be interested. 15:44:31 see right now we dont have to, so we dont. 15:44:40 kc5tja. The main problem is it's in Russian. 15:44:42 when we must, we will... its quite easy 15:45:00 qFox: Well, when food prices increase to the point of preposterity, then one of two things will happen: more people will die of hunger, or people will become violent in search of food. In either case, things get pretty "bad." 15:45:24 yes, but i wasnt trying to say otherwise 15:45:33 i'd say enjoy this age while you still can 15:45:46 i doubt things will get much better over the coming couple of years 15:45:47 Heh 15:45:52 seriously 15:45:56 --- join: I440r (proxyuser@adsl-67-65-218-132.dsl.snantx.swbell.net) joined #forth 15:46:00 life is gonna suck 15:46:03 Nope. They're going to get far, far, far worse. 15:46:23 and there's actually just no way to stop things 15:46:27 of that i'm sure as well 15:46:29 Hence my express interest in growing my own food, using solar ovens to cook, and riding my bike as often as is feasible. 15:46:52 here's my prediction. things will all go to hell... stay there for a deckade or two, three, then some force will rise and straighten things out a bit 15:46:54 qFox: We're already over the hump in the oil production curve. We're just now at the apex of the oil consumption curve. 15:47:03 In another 50 years, things are really going to be suffering. 15:47:18 kc5tja> yes, but we are not (conciously) restricted in our consumation 15:47:46 no outragious prices yet, wars over oil, etc (ok, perhaps iraq war thing could be seen that way, i say its bush revenge :) 15:48:03 i am making so many spelling errors lately 15:48:04 :( 15:48:15 No, it's oil. 15:48:42 but let me put it this way, we, the western world, arent feeling it personally yet. 15:48:54 Nope. 15:48:55 kc5tja. http://www.left.ru/2004/7/cubatransport106.html It says it's translated from a britain journal. I'll make search but does not guarantee results. 15:48:56 no "plastic" tax or something :p 15:48:58 But year by year, we will. 15:48:59 sure, oil prices are increasing, but it's still cheaper than coke 15:49:05 hehe 15:49:20 ASau> i think we prefer the british text ;) 15:49:26 wossname: And a hell of a lot safer. 15:49:57 is biological oil a addequate alternative? 15:49:59 you can run an engine off of coca cola? :o 15:50:10 cola will eat it away... not good 15:50:15 --- quit: SolarFire (Connection timed out) 15:51:16 i think we dont know what we're missing, untill we miss it. 15:51:27 * qFox comes up with all kind of chaos theories :p 15:51:33 the increasing price of oil must also then drive up the prices of everything that depends upon it 15:51:57 "what, no oil? fuck that, have you raided germany yet? no? do so damnit, they probably have a secret stash somewhere!" 15:52:11 No. You cannot run an engine off of Coca Cola. But coke (the finely ground powders of coal) is highly volatile. 15:52:22 Flour is another highly volatile powder too. 15:52:25 ah. 15:52:28 :o 15:52:38 Diesel's original engine design was built for coke. 15:52:59 But it turned out that it clogged the injector valves repeatedly, and had a propensity for catching fire. 15:53:03 Not too cool. 15:53:06 ohwell, if you're planning on designing something mechanical thats gonna need oil.. i suggest you start fast :p 15:53:09 When he changed to peanut oil, the engine ran fantastically. 15:53:28 i suppose peanut oil is a pain to get? 15:53:40 wossname: It's a natural by-product of making peanut butter. :) 15:53:57 In fact, that watery-like stuff you get when you let peanut butter sit for a while is peanut oil. 15:54:13 yepyep get rid of it and the peanutbutter is fubar 15:54:19 too dry :) 15:54:26 imo 15:54:38 so, there are a lot of potential sources of energy that are being more or less ignored... 15:54:52 Dry peanut "butter" is itself a valuable source of fuel. You can gasify it to produce flammable gases. 15:54:57 because of fuel efficiency? or buying/taking from desert people is more fun? 15:55:03 lol 15:55:14 wossname: Because big oil shut them out of the market. 15:55:28 Peanut oil has as much energy density as fossil-based diesel fuels. 15:55:37 when big oil collapses, then, these alternates will be the new sources. but there's always that interval period 15:55:54 kc5tja. The journal is this: http://www.cuba-solidarity.org.uk/cubasi.asp 15:56:05 But big oil didn't want that kind of competition, so they started a major propeganda war against the industry, claiming the benefits of fossil-based fuels over vegetable-based fuels. 15:56:07 i'm happy to say that i'm learning quite a few new interesting things from this discussion, unlike most environmental discussions 15:56:08 kc5tja. Though I don't see this article here. 15:56:14 * qFox imagines future musea "and here we have a 19/20th century cup of oil. no smoking! its priceless!" 15:56:17 kc5tja. Still looking for it. 15:56:41 ASau: Cool. I have it up in Babelfish right now. Tough reading the translation. But I also admit, I've been IRCing more than reading. :) 15:57:03 Hehe 15:58:00 Also, expect the return of the steam engine too. 15:58:05 kc5tja - so, there are /a lot/ of untapped energy sources? 15:58:17 Steam-powered cars got to be pretty darn powerful before the gas engine took them over. And their engines are much smaller. 15:58:21 wossname: Certainly. 15:58:29 kc5tja> and many environmentalists complaining about it ;) 15:58:32 wossname: The reliance on oil is purely a *convenience* thing. 15:58:35 can any one of them approach the production capacity of oil? 15:58:38 oh this world is so fubar 15:58:57 or would we have to get all composite about things 15:59:01 wossname: None. 15:59:12 "Composite?" 15:59:15 kc5tja. Steam engines have too low efficiency coefficient. 15:59:28 well, using multiple energy sources to take the place of the mainly-used oil 15:59:32 You mean mixing and matching? We'll have to mix-n-match. No single power source can come close to equaling oil in production capacity. 15:59:40 yes 16:00:03 ASau: Yes, but that's not relavent to my point. Steam engines can be easily throttled, unlike gas turbines or Stirling engines; therefore, expect them to appear in such applications as cars, buses, etc. 16:00:29 hm less oil means less cars driving means less road needed means land area profit! :p 16:00:41 and less environmental polution 16:00:44 and um 16:00:46 kc5tja. k = (373 - 273)/373 = 100/373 \approx 0,27 supremum. 16:00:48 qFox: More land for cultivation. 16:00:52 correct :) 16:00:52 That's too low. 16:01:03 ASau: No steam engine in their right mind runs with such low temperatures. 16:01:24 ASau: Look up the Rankine cycle. You'll see the temperatures used in steam engines are VERY high -- they call it "super-heated steam" for a reason. :) 16:01:37 Ah. 16:01:50 BUT, I agree, I overwhelmingly prefer Stirling engines. 16:02:04 Those have higher ones. About 0,6 IIRC. 16:02:07 Rankine cycle engines take a LOT of heat to get the water to initially come to a boil. 16:02:07 damn kc5tja, what did you go to school for 16:02:18 wossname: Physics. 16:02:24 well, that would explain things :) 16:02:54 ASau: Only if they have heat-recovery systems installed. 16:03:19 ASau: For example, the heat rejected from a steam engine can be used to power a Stirling engine to supply additional shaft power. 16:03:34 Most modern power plants here have around 90 to 95% efficiency, when you consider all the heat recovery systems they use. 16:03:37 kc5tja I'm not aware of Rankine's but Stirling's cycle is equivalent to Carnot's. 16:03:42 But each individual engine is around 25% to 35% at best. 16:04:13 So it's only useful for utilising non-traditional energy sources. 16:04:14 ASau: I think there is a subtle difference, but superficially, yes. They're the same. And of any practically running engine, it's the only one that can even come close to Carnot's efficiency. 16:05:12 I'm not sure I agree with that statement. Ford powered a Pinto-like car (I forgot the name) off of a Stirling engine back in the 70s oil crisis here, got about 30HP out of it, and around 60 to 75 miles to the gallon of gasoline. 16:05:43 Stirling engine is low power, IIRC. 16:05:43 The problem with Stirling engines is that they can take up to 30 seconds to a minute to heat up enough to produce usable power. 16:06:00 ASau: Stirling engine is whatever power you want it to be. 16:06:24 it all depends on how you build the engine, and how big the heat exchangers are. 16:06:25 I'm not sure, but it's mechanic is more complex. 16:06:44 A single Stirling engine cylinder has only two moving parts: the power piston and its displacer. 16:07:14 A typical single-cylinder reciprocating, internal combustion engine will also have valves, springs, cams, rocker arms, drive train chain/belt, and a host of other glue pieces to make everything work. 16:07:27 Stirling engines are incredibly simple engines. 16:07:50 However, they are more complex to manufacture, because they must be hermetically sealed. 16:08:07 So it's a trade-off. 16:08:27 Then again, Wankel rotary engines also are more complex to manufacture, and they also have few moving parts (the engine in my car has only three moving parts, for example) 16:08:31 brb 16:11:03 back 16:15:00 one last question, mr. energy man 16:15:00 Personally, what I'd *like* to see from the future is the use of a highly efficient Stirling engine to drive an air compressor, which is used to refill a vehicle's compressed air tank. Then, the vehicle can drive around with the compressed air as its power source. 16:15:27 Go ahead 16:15:29 what kind of efficiency problems do you see with use/manufacture of hydrogen 16:15:31 kc5tja: using a Tesla turbine? :) 16:16:10 i'm just happy if this life doesnt end up in an anarchistic bullshit world when the oil doesnt hit the fan anymore... 16:16:15 tathi: I'd like to see that, but I fear they may be too inefficient for anything except long-haul travel. For inner city work, I think a Wankel rotary compressed air motor would be better. Even plain old piston motors. 16:17:12 wossname: It takes energy to generate it, it takes energy to store it (and keep it stored; it has a nasty propensity to leak), it takes energy to transport it safely. 16:17:15 oh, right. 16:17:23 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@pc29dn1d.ppp.FCC.NET) joined #forth 16:17:23 --- mode: ChanServ set +o TheBlueWizard 16:17:34 hiya all 16:17:36 yeah, electrolysis is about 70% efficient IIRC 16:17:38 I also expect communities to get smaller, not larger. Which is something I definitely am in support of. 16:17:56 well, besides compressed air, what kind of "universal energy" store would you suggest? 16:18:02 Which will technically reduce the need for long-haul motors anyway. 16:18:20 wossname: Ethanol. 16:18:42 yup yup. I'd love to live in a place where I could get away with only my bike for transportation. 16:19:15 ethanol-powered turbine engines to be more precise. Turbines in and of themselves aren't that fuel efficient, BUT, they have two things going for them: 16:19:46 (1) They can burn their fuels 100%, without any noxious exhaust. What comes out the tail pipe really is CO2 and water. For modern car engines, this is still just a pipe dream. 16:20:02 (2) They are trivial to recover waste heat from, so they're easy to get higher efficiencies from. 16:20:29 ah, it seems there are always more questions 16:20:29 wasnt co2, innocent as it might be, be the main problem at "pollution"? 16:20:37 qFox: No. 16:20:39 at least as far as car exhaustion goes? 16:20:40 oh 16:20:45 how can i combust the jar of peanut butter in my closet? 16:20:47 Unbalanced CO2 production is the problem. 16:20:58 oh, they never mention that word 16:20:59 :) 16:21:00 tathi. Move to Cuba! 16:21:05 Basically, if CO2 production is balanced, then it's not a problem. 16:21:23 ASau: don't think I need to go that far 16:21:24 hm balanced in what way? 16:21:32 The idea being, when an engine spits out CO2, somewhere, there is a plant that is consuming said CO2. 16:21:39 ASau: just need to get out of the rolling hills of Pennsylvania :) 16:21:57 Right now, the oil that we're burning is introducing *more* CO2 into the atmosphere than what can be *consumed*. 16:22:00 right, more co2 then is consumed by plants 16:22:00 tathi. In that case you're _guaranteed_ no to live that far. 16:22:02 hence, it's unbalanced. 16:22:06 thats what i meant 16:22:25 qFox: And that's why I recommended Ethanol. 16:22:31 Ethanol comes from (waste) plant matter. 16:23:03 What ethanol we can't extract from a plant, we can provide other fuels from via gasification. 16:23:24 ohwell, "we"'ll think of something 16:23:29 And indeed, fermentation is itself a biological process. 16:23:58 C6H12O6 -> 2 C2H5OH + 2 CO2. 16:24:15 Yep. 16:24:21 Well. How can you reduce CO2 exaust? 16:24:21 eep, chemistry o_0 16:24:34 ASau: The problem isn't reducing it, it's making sure it's balanced. 16:24:46 Uh 16:24:59 just reduce the number of cars, or increase the number of plants :p 16:25:06 qFox: Precisely. 16:25:13 And that'll happen naturally if people die off from hunger. :) 16:25:25 Or so many who can't afford cars that they return to riding bikes. 16:25:34 natures own balance, isnt it sweet 16:25:44 Well. When producing ethanol from plant waste, you produce CO2. 16:25:58 ASau: You produce CO2 from burning ethanol too. 16:26:26 The fact is, though, that sum total CO2 "output" from the whole process is equal to sum total CO2 "input". 16:26:42 And conditions are such, that you can't combine CO2 consumption in the same time. 16:26:58 Right. 16:27:30 hm, i'm thinking of creating some kind of script that will show me (obvious, unintended) spelling errors i make while typing 16:27:37 And ethanol gives less energy than oil. 16:27:58 it appears that basicly is spelled basically :\ 16:28:00 Adding more technological problems. 16:28:07 ASau: that's not relavent if it's a balanced system, because it'd be made up for via the use of more efficient engines. 16:28:22 qFox. man ispell ? 16:28:37 i be windows sir 16:28:51 qFox. ispell /? ? 16:28:56 but a script cant be very hard. just need a dictionary really 16:28:59 Hmm. 16:29:03 i dont know what ispell is... 16:29:07 ispell --help 16:29:12 ASau: Windows doesn't come with ispell. 16:29:36 kc5tja. Windows doesn't come with anything practically useful. 16:29:56 It comes with Solitaire! :) 16:30:19 Linux comes with XBill. 16:30:23 16:30:26 16:30:28 16:30:33 Yes, one of my favorite games too. 16:30:35 is this in any way an exploit? i'm getting alot of these lately... 16:30:59 qFox: No, that's HTML with an embedded style-sheet. 16:30:59 i cant see how but the subject, sender, target, anything for that matter, is blank. 16:31:06 i understand what it is 16:31:17 but blockquote.cite isnt something i see every day 16:31:27 It's valid CSS. 16:31:29 i dont even know what cite is/does actually 16:31:35 hm odd :\ 16:31:40 It's a custom class. 16:31:54 oh right 16:31:59
This text would be formatted according to blockquote.cite in the CSS.
16:32:02 aye 16:32:02 ok 16:32:15 just a retard spammer then 16:32:18 Yep 16:32:27 Or one that takes delight in raw, unadulterated annoyance. 16:32:48 This maybe was generated by Word or smth of that kind. 16:34:02 my guess is some spam app not being configured properly 16:34:13 missing its message, basicALly 16:36:14 "Western civilisation? Well, the idea is not bad..." Mahatma Gandhi. 16:36:19 I like this! 16:37:08 :p 16:37:52 western is a matter of oppinion. eventually anything is west of anything at some point. or east. 16:37:59 no, not or, and. 16:38:11 (sorry just had to ;) 16:40:01 qFox. "Western" means Europe + USA + Commonwealth. 16:40:28 * qFox knows 16:40:41 its just funny. why is it western? 16:40:48 is it because USA is western from europe? 16:40:54 because its east from asia 16:41:06 or is it because europe is west from asia? 16:41:20 or... asia... west from usa? ;) 16:41:34 Asia is considered "eastern" to us. 16:41:37 Because, "Eastern" means Russia + India + Arabia + China. 16:41:51 In main part. 16:42:24 uhm. 16:42:50 realizing i'm making a terrible thinking error... i withdraw this whole thing :\ 16:43:59 kc5tja> in geographical maps, do you have USA as teh centre of the map? 16:44:05 i actually dont know 16:44:14 That's classic division of the time after Europe realized that they're not alone on the Earth. 16:44:31 oh ic 16:44:45 qFox: North America is usually at the 33% mark and Europe at the 66% mark. 16:44:59 and asia half on each side? 16:45:05 qFox: Yes. 16:45:15 So basically the Atlantic Ocean is in the middle of the map. 16:45:18 heh ok that is different from any map i'm customed to 16:45:19 Because to the West of Europe there was nothing that time. 16:45:52 ...everything was divided into West and East. 16:45:54 in any "worldmap" i can remember seeing, euro/afrika is central, and so forth 16:46:20 I can find the URL of USSR map. :) 16:46:52 ASau> what is the status of russia anyways? i mean, is it still called russia? whats left of it? 16:47:28 Now official name is Russian Federation, Russia for short. 16:47:28 is there any part of russia still part of europe? or is any part in europe now an independent country? :) 16:47:41 Well. 16:48:18 ASau: It's tough reading, but I think I'm getting the salient points. It is very interesting, and these are measures that I've more or less supported myself. 16:48:22 The main cultural and historic part of Russia is considered West-European plain. 16:50:11 "Europe" is cut with Ural mountains by geographers and by Dunajj-Bug, I think, rivers by historians. 16:51:10 Eastern border of Europe is Poland, Hungary, Slovakia and Romania. 16:51:27 In historical aspect, I mean. 16:52:09 brb 16:52:22 Midage history of Russia and Europe in those borders is too different. 16:54:17 As for "classical european" part of Russia. I think, Kaliningradskaja oblast' should be called as such. 16:54:39 One time Kaliningrad was Koenigsberg. 16:55:52 all i remember from geography class is that theres a continental border straight thru russia somewhere 33% from european point of view 16:56:07 also, if my memory serves me right, Russia is a part of Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS for short) 16:56:38 You're wrong. 16:56:59 Russia never has been Britain colony. 16:59:30 true, Russia has never been a part of British Commonwealth....I did a Google on CIS and found one: http://www.cisstat.com/eng/cis.htm 16:59:32 No one country that has not been Britain colony could be a part of CIS. 17:01:04 The simple fact that CIS is made of Britain colonies explains almost everything. 17:01:50 hm, arey ou talking about the same? according to that link cis is created 1991, i believe colonies arent that big a deal anymore at that time... 17:02:44 ASau: you keep interpreting "commonwealth" to mean British thing, which is not accurate 17:02:59 i think he is confusing it with something that looks like it 17:03:03 another good one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_of_Independent_States 17:03:19 Ah. 17:03:22 i have never heard of the cis, but i know of the british thing he's talking about (only remember the dutch translation though) 17:03:23 You mean SNG. 17:03:27 gemenebest... 17:03:36 I never heard it in English. 17:03:40 Sorry. 17:03:44 SNG? 17:03:57 cant think of it. but i think you are both talking about different organizations :) 17:04:07 Sodruzhestvo Nezavisimykh Gosudarstv. 17:04:18 Well. 17:04:28 so that's what CIS is called? interesting 17:04:31 That another thing, of course. 17:05:04 Word-to-word translation is "CIS." 17:06:18 I see 17:07:34 It seems that list is outdated. 17:07:48 what list? 17:08:40 I mean CIS members. 17:08:47 Now checking it. 17:10:11 Hm. 17:10:26 It's strange to see, but it is not. 17:11:03 interesting 17:11:42 I think this is because CIS itself is almost not functioning. 17:13:20 At least, there're more news of Russia-Kyrgysia-Kazakhstan-Byelorussia-Tajikistan union. 17:13:57 it seems to be a very thin political "glue", and nothing else....but it serves a very useful excuse for getting rid of USSR :) 17:14:25 That's not the case. 17:15:12 Explanation is this: russians were forced to move off their homes in other republics. 17:16:14 The situation before 1991 was this. 17:16:39 --- join: I440r_ (proxyuser@adsl-67-65-218-132.dsl.snantx.swbell.net) joined #forth 17:16:46 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 17:17:01 There exist several republics with borders set voluntarily. 17:17:03 I was talking about the events in 1991 when the leaders met and came up with this CIS in order to get rid of USSR...that's my understanding 17:17:56 But new self-announced presidents want to own evrything. 17:18:25 It's hard to move border, so they divided with older ones. 17:19:09 And after this, lesser nations proclaimed, "This is our land. Get out!" 17:20:15 Some nations were more educated, like Kazakhs, they couldn't afford direct speech. 17:20:37 Others, like Chechens, took guns. 17:21:13 nationalism, yeah...and I know the communist leaders made an excellent mess of it by putting X people to Y land, etc. 17:21:31 "direct speech"? 17:22:21 In several countries there were local conflicts between, e.g. Uzbeks and Kyrgys and Tajiks, or between Abkhazes and Georgians. 17:23:55 * TheBlueWizard is aware of the conflict between Abkhazs and Georgians, but didn't know of conflicts between Uzbeks, Kytgys and Tajiks... 17:24:37 I mean, that Russians were forced to move with various means. Sometimes that's been done with weapon, other times with economical policy. 17:25:09 Oh. That's very hard to explain. 17:25:32 In Tajikistan, IIRC, there was a civil war. 17:26:39 Kyrgysia fought with Uzbekistan for Ferfana valley, or who fought, I even can't recall for sure. 17:27:21 The situation there is not easy. 17:28:22 A touch of Balkan politics :-P I remember being told that the former USSR region (the whole thing including Russia, Ukraine, etc.) had over 80 ethnical groups 17:28:34 Saparmurat Nijazov proclaimed himself as Eternal President etc. 17:29:40 So Turkmenia has now eternal democratically elected president. 17:30:05 Well. Of course there're much more than 80. 17:30:32 Only in Daghestan there are about 100. 17:31:05 whoa, did comp.lang.forth just revert do a previous state? 17:31:14 "Eternal President"...yet another popular way of calling himself a dictator...."President for Life"....whatever... 17:31:28 like, from a few days ago 17:31:59 --- join: arke (~Chris@wbar8.lax1-4-11-100-108.dsl-verizon.net) joined #forth 17:32:13 only on Google Groups, apparently 17:32:14 I don't know actual Turkmenian words. I don't know Turkmenian at all. 17:32:22 Robert: send me an email with details on how I can do that stuffs in F, please. 17:32:29 I have to go back to work in a few minutes 17:32:33 brb 17:32:37 I'm only on my 30 minute break :) 17:33:01 But "President for Life" is the fact. 17:40:41 Saparmurat Nijazov is listed in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_for_Life :) 17:43:37 Hm. Impressive. 17:45:24 as you can see, those cockroach-like jerks are fairly common...sadly 17:47:12 another way to stay in power is done by manipulating the political process (e.g. elections), thus, although that ruler doesn't declare himself a "President for Life", he is practically that...example: Fidel Castro 17:47:35 i think we should kill anyone on this planet with religious believes, and start raising them with scientific ideas about evolution etc. somehow i think that would create a much better world... 17:48:03 think of it like starting a new computer + OS from scratch using current technology, but with no backwards compatibility 17:48:11 (neither will happen, ever...) 17:48:41 i think we should kill off everybody who disagrees with me 17:48:43 * TheBlueWizard stays away from qFox 17:48:48 man, that would be totally awesome 17:48:53 heh 17:48:56 * TheBlueWizard stays away from wossname 17:48:59 we'd have a pizza party every day. and i would be president for life 17:49:17 Problem is these: F. C. R. has done much for his country, S. N. has done nothing (good). 17:49:19 TheBlueWizard> at least he wants to kill you, i'm just saying eliminate all and any religion :) 17:50:06 qFox: you are talking about world war.... :-P 17:50:08 and if anyone googles this quote, YES YOU SHOULD DIE! MUHAHHAAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHHAHA *raises pinky* 17:50:13 TheBlueWizard> nah 17:50:23 yah 17:50:25 qFox: Death to extremists! 17:50:37 i'm talking about how much better this world would probably be if there wasnt any form of religion... 17:50:56 heh, i doubt it 17:51:17 or perhaps an innocent religion 17:51:30 like "sure dude, there's someone up there, but he's just watching, dont worry about him" 17:51:32 people are the authors of nearly all their own problems, and religious ones are just part of the variety of problems 17:51:52 yes but from religion derive many of the problems 17:51:54 ethics 17:51:56 laws 17:51:59 wars 17:52:19 i'm not saying we'd get an ideal world or anything :) 17:52:34 why are you not allowed to take your own life? 17:52:39 qFox. Well, would you accept Eastern Slavic pre-christian ethics and laws? 17:52:50 by law i mean, because its against the bible. 17:52:51 qfox - who's stopping you? ;o 17:53:16 try to kill yourself and you wont ever see daylight again (which is, i guess, partially what you wanted anyhow ;) 17:53:38 well in holland its illegal anyhow 17:53:39 you don't get imprisoned for killing yourself :) 17:53:45 you either become a social outcast or dead 17:53:56 you get institutionalized 17:54:03 Depends on how you do it, woss. 17:54:05 that is not a nice word to type. 17:54:10 :p 17:54:18 Use DRUGS to kill yourself, and you're a terrible sinner. ;) 17:54:36 hah, nobody cares how you kill yourself unless you do it in a manner that inconveniences others 17:54:47 i'm just saying. its forbidden by law, because its forbidden by the bible. 17:54:52 Robert. It's much easier to go into window on 16th floor. 17:54:53 in holland? 17:54:57 "only god can make such a choice" 17:55:37 and how many wars, or war-related issues, have come from religion in the past? and still? 17:55:55 bla. 17:56:05 We have more wars on economical reasons. 17:56:22 ..for economical reasons. 17:56:54 "why cant we all just, get along?" :) 17:57:04 because you won't leggo my eggo >:( 17:57:13 huh :) 17:57:29 You keep your hands out of my Lego box!! 17:57:43 haha 17:58:19 sorry to bother you guys with this stuff... i'm starting to get a whole new look on this life at the moment and need to vent my thoughts somewhere... 17:58:36 mmm. the adventures of fafhrd and the grey mouser to catch up on, and film - zatoichi at 11 17:58:53 another lovely night in comfort land 17:59:24 qfox - i wouldn't say that blaming religion for world problems is a "new" look on life ;o 18:00:27 oh no 18:00:32 thats just as a result of thing 18:00:33 s 18:00:52 personally, i blame communism for world problems 18:01:10 i've put my thoughts on paper, or well still busy on finalizing that document. still waiting on feedback from fridge on that actually 18:01:26 :D 18:01:26 communism is not a worldwide problem imo 18:02:12 its kinda funny. i've never heard of a theory like this, and when i talk to ppl about it it appears they have the same thoughts :p 18:02:21 same main concept anyways 18:02:33 wossname. Before you blame, you'd learn what's communism. 18:02:38 In my observations about people, people just don't *think*. 18:03:04 Communism in and of itself isn't any more to blame for the world's problems than hunger is. 18:03:06 asau - i wasn't really serious :l 18:03:19 wossname. Maybe what's you think is your state propaganda. 18:03:20 What the problems are are the people who run things, but don't *think*. 18:03:25 hunger would be a neat way of summing up all of the world's problems 18:03:43 * qFox wants a star trek kind of federation world plz :\ 18:03:52 They don't consider their options, they ignore informed choices, they fail repeatedly to do any kind of research (when was the last time you saw a high-up government official in a library?), . . . 18:03:53 including a replicator, while i'm dreaming. 18:04:06 (and holodeck ofc) 18:04:15 ohwell, i think i'll go to bed 18:04:23 qFox: That's a communist world. 18:04:27 i don't know too much about states govt, but i do know the govt here in canada is extremely irresponsible with cash 18:04:45 2 billion on a gun registry, 45 million spent printing flags.. 18:05:20 wossname: Precisely my point. People need to *think* about what they're doing, what the repurcussions would be for the future. 18:05:21 i bet the ledger of government expenditure is probably public property, but it wouldn't be worth the trouble of taking a good look at it 18:05:24 kc5tja> hmmmm, i think... thats correct yes. well, the main goal of communism. 18:05:29 Now-a-days, thought has been replaced with sheer greed. 18:05:42 just nowadays? :D 18:05:53 human nature :( 18:06:00 responsible, well-thought government would be wonderful to have 18:06:22 i couldn't see myself as being part of it. i'm too apathetic. so how can i expect anybody else to do it ... 18:06:28 wossname: As I understand things, when Canada was first formed, it was a wonderful country to be in, work in, and support in government service. I understand that corruption is a relatively recent phenomina. 18:06:33 wossname. Learn what's "soviet." 18:06:59 kc5tja: it's still a very nice country, but this corruption business puts a damper on things 18:07:03 ASau: ? 18:07:21 communism could work, if ppl were not used to the fact that one job pays more then another. and in some way its fair. ppl that learn hard and long for their jobs should be rewarded for their work. (i dont agree in lousy company directors getting phat paychecks though) 18:07:36 wossname. You want another government, so learn this example. 18:07:51 i don't want another government, i simply want one that is more responsible 18:07:55 ohwell. i'm not into politics, they can all go to hell (which is a myth ;), as long as they leave me directly alone. 18:08:28 i recently did a small research project about communism in russia and china, and russia's political structure was even more convoluted than the one here 18:08:31 My personal philosophy is such that a government de facto forms from the personal choices of the individual. 18:08:48 There should be no agri-business, state sponsored or otherwise: everyone should grow their own food, somehow. 18:09:01 complete self-sufficiency? 18:09:09 everybody is a state of one? :p 18:09:17 wossname: Complete self-sufficiency is a myth too, I was going to get to this. 18:09:25 Because nobody lives in a vacuum. 18:09:28 qFox. You can study this question to find out, why payment differs. 18:09:29 my main problem with communism, is that my stereotype about a communistic government is that its always corrupted 18:09:35 But *as a whole*, yes, a state of one. 18:10:19 i'm not sure if this is correct, but thats my immidiate thought of communism. every time it gets associated with corruption 18:10:22 Businesses as they exist today as legal pseudo-people, people who are taxed, but yet, devoid of any and all other responsibilities. 18:10:41 qFox. Don't mix up. You get something like "democratically elected president for life." 18:10:41 (not communism in theory, its goals, but in practice) 18:10:53 thats USA 18:10:56 In my view, businesses cannot exist. You can have cooperation between others, but entirely and purely on a contractual basis, period. 18:11:02 we have uhm, something i cant translate properly 18:11:19 we have a queen, but she's got no control whatsoever 18:11:43 Consider something like In-N-Out, whom I used to work for. 18:11:57 oh, we have a prime minister, and ministers, and a whole bunch of other ppl that make decisions, and other ppl that decide either those dicisions are good or bad, and we vote for them every 4 years... 18:12:02 You have the manager, and then you have various employees of various pay levels. 18:12:40 but our prime minister isnt the sole ruler of the netherlands (thank god, he's a grown up harry potter!) 18:12:49 BTW. Want a simplistic example of communism? Read this: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/stallman-kth.html 18:13:01 In my ideal world, the manager is a *peer* of the other employees. They all cooperate to make In-N-Out a reality. There is no dictatorial relationship between the employee and the manager, as legally sanctioned presently. 18:13:22 afaik, communism is everyone earns the same, and has the same wealth. 18:13:24 I'm really having a hard time writing this out. 18:13:31 shouldn't the manager exert some executive control over the others? 18:13:44 wossname. No. 18:13:51 wossname: His executive control comes from his network. 18:13:55 Manager should not exist. 18:14:23 Just as with open source, when a project leader wants to "fire" a contributer, he can simply refuse to accept his contributions, take his name off the site, whatever. 18:14:37 But there is no firm, legally enforced concept of "fire" or "employment." 18:14:38 bah. i think you need experts for everybody 18:14:39 in my ideal world there is no greed, and no selfishness. as a result there would be no cash, and everyone would be happy. 18:14:41 Everything here is voluntary. 18:14:53 oh and everyone uses logic to reason :p 18:14:54 and there is room for experts of management and direction 18:15:13 these experts must be able to make efficient use of other experts 18:15:18 wossname: Then take them in as contractors. 18:15:23 But don't make them your superiors. 18:15:38 well, if i ignore what they say, then what good is their direction? 18:15:54 If they're not happy, they can find someone else who will accept their services. 18:16:06 in a government like in canada and the usa, aren't we electing what are hopefully a group of direction experts? 18:16:26 Yes, but they are so far "up the chain," that we can't do anything about it. 18:16:28 and then we make them our superiors 18:16:30 Their financial documents are closed. 18:16:41 i don't agree with that, not at all 18:16:44 The lawmakers constantly make laws without consent of the people. 18:16:58 there should be more accountability in all forms of government, because government exists only to serve us 18:17:06 wossname. The problem is: what do they understand in software development? 18:17:25 asau - they understand that they need package x to do y 18:17:28 The open source phenominon has proven the extreme power of cooperation. 18:17:41 Oppression, in any form, only serves to hinder the worker. 18:17:55 wossname. Using software is not developping. 18:18:00 (forgive me if I sound like a Marxist here; these goals are universal, though Marxist was the loudest proponent of them.) 18:18:32 no problems :p 18:19:02 asau - their expertise would be in knowing exactly what is needed at the time, and who to bring together to create what is needed 18:19:09 The wild success of Open Book Management has proven repeatedly to take near-bankrupt companies and turn them around into major profit centers. 18:19:37 in the case of software, they would have to pick the best software architect to meet the requirements, as loose or as tight as they may be 18:19:44 I am adament that the same concepts of openness CAN be applied universally to all matters public, in business and in government. 18:19:47 kc5tja - open book management? 18:19:57 wossname. I think, they have no clue at all. 18:20:27 wossname: It's a management style where the company's books are made available to all employees, and where every employee is considered a manager, and empowered to make managerial decisions at his level. 18:21:31 so, there are no such things as employees which might as well be robots? 18:21:57 you mention the in-n-out - how does this contrast to a less-free organization such as mcdonalds? :p 18:22:04 i'm going to bed 18:22:05 nite all 18:22:05 Right. Employees do their part in the company *voluntarily*, because they see a *direct* relationship between their actions and the *income* the company makes, and therefore, their paychecks. 18:22:18 In-N-Out is NOT a free model. 18:22:44 sleep well qfox 18:22:53 I had *no* access to the company's financial statements, no way of offering suggestions (well, not true: I could make suggestions all I wanted, but I had no way of knowing whether they'd help or hinder the company, which is almost as bad), etc. 18:23:04 bye qFox 18:23:21 earlier, you were talking favourably about the in-n-out 18:23:23 I had no managerial capacities of any kind, although I was empowered to make *some* command decisions whenever it involved an unhappy customer. 18:23:29 maybe it is more free than mcdonalds would be? 18:23:36 I was giving a hypothetical scenario in my idealized community. 18:23:40 ah 18:23:55 --- quit: qFox ("this is mirc's last attempt of communication...") 18:24:04 that would explain the "in my ideal world" before that sentence. reading without context... :l 18:24:16 Where everything WOULD be open, WOULD be based on the sense of volunteerism, and trust relationships built on a meritocratic basis. 18:24:49 :) 18:26:08 ah, meritocracy. everything is just a poor approximation of it :) 18:26:32 BTW, kc5tja, you describe something that's close to soviet. 18:27:19 ASau: Yes; however, I want to remain distinctly separated from the label "soviet," because of its badly tarnished name. 18:27:45 It is also, interestingly enough, considered a goal for objectivists as well, which is staunchly capitalist in nature. 18:28:15 The "ideal" objectivist world, as far as I can tell, also does not permit things like monopolies or worker abuse to happen. 18:29:01 i don't know about you, kc5tja, but i'm in favour of capitalism but i would not disagree with most of the things you've said 18:30:25 wossname: I'm actually in favor of capitalism, believe it or not. But I want to see some kind of controls in place (e.g., such as a strictly open book management policy for ALL companies involved), where *EVERYONE* in the community has "corporate" status, so that I can sell my services just as easily as anyone else, methods in place to ensure prevention of monopolistic rule, etc. 18:30:58 controls imply that we would be subordinate to a greater authority 18:31:13 And if everyone grew their own food, then we wouldn't have any hunger problems like we do today (at least, not nearly as bad as it is today). 18:31:47 wossname: Again, look at the open source community. If everything is published in the open, it is *not possible* to form a monopoly unless you rightfully *earn* it. 18:31:52 kc5tja, your mission is clear then - use your finished kestrel to power the FarmerBot2010 to allow anybody to easily maintain a plot of land :) 18:32:14 wossname: I don't have to. Google for "Container gardening." 18:32:18 ! 18:33:13 you can purchase 'garden' containers that automatically do nearly all the maintenance required? 18:33:23 Oh, no. 18:33:23 :) 18:33:30 But it doesn't take much maintenance to grow your own stuff. :) 18:33:39 But a "plot of land" is as simple as a bucket. 18:33:50 And for cooking food, I *strongly* urge the use of solar ovens. 18:34:05 I still need to finish making mine, unfortunately. 18:35:06 i would probably make a terrible farmer, i'm afraid. but if it doesn't take much maintenance, constructing an automatic system might not be so difficult to do :l 18:35:31 The only thing that would be automated really is watering it. 18:35:44 You really can't keep insects off the thing. 18:36:19 ..! 18:36:20 Sometimes you have to cut off dead leaves or prevent fungi from growing in the plant. 18:36:34 I typically look after my sundew plant once a day, in the early morning. 18:37:00 ah, i've gotta go 18:37:05 Okies 18:37:41 --- quit: wossname ("tst") 18:38:24 kc5tja. " 18:38:25 From this the reader will see that Mr. Lloyd George is not only a very intelligent man, but one who has also learned a great deal from the Marxists. We too have something to learn from Lloyd George. 18:39:59 That's about dogmatism. 18:41:28 I don't follow. 18:41:34 (Am I being/sounding dogmatic?) 18:42:35 No. 18:43:30 This is just a point of view. 18:44:17 You are for capitalism but with anti-capitalistic goals. 18:44:25 This seems strange. 18:44:54 * TheBlueWizard chuckles 18:45:01 :) 18:45:26 well, gotta go....bye all 18:45:48 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth 18:48:47 I believe that capitalism has the potential to "work" if and only if you eliminate the concept of a company, especially one which assumes the legal status of a person on the one hand and yet is devoid of personic responsibilities on the other. 18:50:22 I don't know DeLion's point of view, but Lenin always thought that any capitalism would recover to bigger companies and to imperialism as the highes its form. 18:50:42 ...highest... 18:51:06 As does De Lion. 18:52:19 But his ideal society is architecturally closer that of what already exists in the USA -- e.g., lots of voting bodies at several levels of hierarchy, complete transparency between these hierarchies (e.g., "leaders" can be removed and replaced with someone else *at will* from lower levels in the hierarchy), etc. 18:53:01 Stallman's observation only adds vote to Lenin's point. 18:53:12 And when I say "at will," I mean it too -- in a De Lionist society, if a leader turns out to be sour in only two days, he's removed from power in precisely two days. 18:53:43 I'm not sure which observation Stallman made you're talking about. 18:54:18 See link above. 18:54:46 I'm not seeing any link. 18:55:00 Look for "gnu.org". 18:55:08 Right. 18:56:17 Ability to remove any leader in any time by direct vote is one of the proposed goals in 1917. 18:56:35 ...at any time... 19:37:30 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 20:02:46 --- join: crc (crc@0-1pool176-51.nas6.philadelphia1.pa.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 20:45:59 I just saw Supersize Me 20:47:14 Never heard of that. What is it? 20:48:03 documentary of Morgan Spurlock who eats only McDonalds food for a month 20:48:20 3 meals a day, must try everything on the menu at least once. 20:48:26 and must supersize his meal if asked. 20:48:57 documents his health 20:53:14 very fun 20:53:22 and quite an eye opener. 20:53:32 I didn't realize public school food was so bad 20:54:37 I mean... I expected him to have serious health problems, but I learned a lot anyway 20:58:32 Information at: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0390521/ 21:01:49 b4ck 4ll 21:03:08 welcome back arke 21:04:03 thanks :) 21:04:09 * arke has a rash in teh worst of places 21:06:00 I'm sure it'll go away one day :-) 21:24:33 * crc is delving deeper into the RetroForth compiler design 21:27:25 sup 21:38:16 Well. I've to go. 21:38:19 Bye! 21:38:23 --- quit: ASau () 21:44:03 wza.us/radio.html radio time 21:49:36 --- quit: I440r_ (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 21:54:28 OK, I'm off to grab some food. 21:54:33 (speaking of eating fast food for a month..) 21:56:23 hi 21:56:23 :) 21:57:09 radio 21:57:12 radio radio radio 21:57:31 * arke listens to Penumbra - Moaning on Earth 21:57:36 * crc has never had luck with online radio 21:57:39 followed by (you guessed it) Rush - Vital Signs 21:57:42 radio radio radio radio 21:57:47 radio radio radio radio 21:57:47 * crc is also using a dialup connection 21:58:00 dialup stream: http://wza.us:8000/low.ogg 21:58:09 heh 21:58:15 you can't play halo over diaalup ^__^ 21:58:43 warpzero: got any Funker Vogt? 21:59:12 no :( 22:00:26 * crc has no ogg player for Windows 22:01:34 winamp 22:04:27 I'm downloading it now... 22:19:59 --- join: Serg (~z@212.34.52.140) joined #forth 22:30:25 I can't find an ogg plugin :-( 22:31:06 --- quit: Herkamire ("power outage") 22:31:12 google says: http://www.downseek.com/download/15393.asp 22:46:43 It's still not working 22:51:02 Back for now. 23:00:24 re 23:00:52 http://cryptomancer.narod.ru/foto - ruins of Moscow 23:01:57 Ok, now it's working. Very cool warpzero. :-) 23:03:17 Serg: What are these 'ruins' from? 23:03:30 kc5tja: stream my radio :D 23:04:03 warpzero: I can't right now. I'm getting ready to go to bed. 23:04:20 :( 23:04:21 warpzero: is the radio stream always on? 23:04:25 no 23:04:30 its only one when im DJing 23:04:49 Ok 23:04:54 or if someone else wants to dj they can i guess 23:04:59 kc5tja: all near Kremlin.. 23:05:08 warpzero: I'll probably talk to you about getting a stream up on my own though, since it comes in handy when sharing with others what I'm hearing on my own ham radio. 23:05:18 oh sure 23:05:24 you can use my server 23:05:53 'antique' ones are Manej - great hall for military drills incl. cavalry, built long ago, great historic value 23:06:11 burnt down coz some moneybags wanna buy place cheap 23:06:49 --- quit: Sonarman (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 23:07:59 --- join: Sonarman (~matt@adsl-64-171-254-18.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 23:08:59 other is hotel 'Moscow' - 50m to nearest corner tower of Kremlin, victim of underground waters displaced by u-marked built near Kremlin at Yeltsin time 23:09:01 Serg: What is moskva? 23:09:04 Ahh. 23:09:05 yes 23:09:30 it just cracks apart - and so may happen to Kremlin 23:09:44 u-marked? 23:10:02 typo, underground supermarkeT 23:10:05 What are those domes in the park? 23:10:13 Serg: OK, that's what I thought. I just wanted to make sure. :) 23:10:29 domes are "windows" of U-market 23:10:43 Wow, so the supermarket is underground? 23:10:51 yes ! 23:10:59 Ingenious! 23:11:21 (well, except for failing to observe the local waterbase. :D) 23:11:23 why? 23:11:26 7 storeys deep near Kremlin, blocking underground water and threatening w/ destruction all historic center 23:11:26 is it ingenious 23:11:49 Oh, if it's SEVEN STORIES underground, . . . I wouldn't have done that. 23:12:05 Sonarman: I think so. Do you know how god-awful ugly supermarkets are? 23:12:22 Everywhere you look in California, literally EVERYWHERE, there is at least three supermarkets in eye-sight. 23:12:32 Ralphs, Albertsons, and Vons. 23:12:33 7 storeys by rough estimation, looking down great middle hall 23:12:52 Vons is mostly in SoCal :) 23:13:23 Sonarman: Doesn't matter; my point stands. I'm sick of looking at supermarkets, "Shoes For Less", and whatnot all the time. 23:13:26 It gets annoying. 23:13:32 And then you see constant construction elsewhere. 23:13:38 yeah, i don't liek them much either 23:13:42 If anything, buildings should be underground *here*. 23:13:50 They're way safer from earthquakes that way. 23:14:19 hell no ! 23:14:43 if it crash, saving people will be much harder 23:15:22 That's debatable. 23:15:30 kc5tja: here is at least 3 gambling shacks in sight 23:15:31 And I lack the consciousness to properly present my evidence. 23:15:44 Suffice it to say that the walls of the building are firmly secured against the surrounding terrain. 23:15:46 kc5tja: just pm me if you want to use my server 23:15:59 warpzero: okies 23:16:52 Anyway, I have to get to bed. I need t work tomorrow. 23:17:17 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK") 23:20:57 --- quit: Serg () 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/04.05.30