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08:07:25 <Robert> Hi, old timer. ;)
08:07:47 * Robert leaves before I440r spots him
08:07:58 <I440r> lol
08:08:08 * I440r thwaps robert with the isforth manual
08:08:13 <I440r> get that resolver coded
08:12:54 <Robert> Hehe
08:12:59 <Robert> Sure, sure.. I will
08:13:09 <Robert> ..if I find out how the DNS protocol works ;)
08:13:32 <I440r> google
08:13:44 <I440r> or go look in library for "dns & bind"
08:14:31 <XeF4> http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1035.html
08:14:52 <XeF4> http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1034.html
08:14:54 <XeF4> http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1033.html
08:15:27 <Robert> HAH
08:15:33 <Robert> Our library barely has HTML for dummies. :P
08:15:37 <Robert> But I did google
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08:19:28 <XeF4> http://www.dns.net/dnsrd/rfc/
08:19:49 <XeF4> man dig
08:19:51 <XeF4> man named
08:19:57 <XeF4> ph33r my vaivannäkö
08:20:26 <I440r> :)
08:20:53 <I440r> you just need to know how to format a dns request (im not asking for a dns server :)
08:21:05 <I440r> and you need to know what to do on a timeout.
08:21:19 <I440r> the code will have to look in /etc/resolv.conf and try each name server specified in there
08:21:38 <I440r> and you cannot pre-parse resolv.conf. it must be parsed one very call
08:21:44 <I440r> and the code HAS to be re-entrant
08:22:05 <I440r> :)
08:22:17 <XeF4> can isforth already do sockets?
08:22:48 <I440r> hang on...
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08:23:46 <XeF4> I'll take that as "yes" =)
08:23:48 <I440r> [forth] is a do nothing irc bot coded in isforth
08:24:35 <I440r> the source code for it is in the release 
08:24:45 <I440r> sockets.f is in src/ext/
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08:25:33 <XeF4> quite simple
08:25:43 <I440r> it is 
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08:27:23 <I440r> xef4 do you have isforth ?
08:28:11 <XeF4> I have.
08:28:16 <I440r> 1.14b ?
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08:28:25 <XeF4> yes
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08:29:41 <solar_angel> omg, a forth channel.
08:31:20 <I440r> been here for ages lol
08:31:25 <solar_angel> coolness :)
08:31:36 <solar_angel> not many people using FORTH anymore these days.
08:32:09 <I440r> im gona convert them all to forth 
08:32:25 <solar_angel> heh
08:44:49 <rO|> I440r
08:48:18 <I440r> ya ?
08:49:55 <rO|> may i /whois you? it's just for testing, nothing personal
08:49:58 <Robert> So..
08:50:04 <Robert> Had to do some shopping.
08:50:39 <XeF4> r0|: /whois is handled by the server 
08:50:54 <Robert> I440r: Hey, you mean IsForth isn't going to have its own resolv.conf? :) What a waste of Forth's power, heheh
08:52:42 <rO|> XeF4: howdy ;-) /whois can be seen by the target and is impolite w/o asking
08:52:48 <Robert> I440r: Besides, They (the communist frankenstein conspiracy) will never use Forth if you use Their standards.
08:52:56 <XeF4> ro| no it can't
08:53:05 <XeF4> ro| did you see that?
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08:53:35 <solar_angel> generally, a /whois can only be seen by ircops.
08:53:52 <Robert> And the US government.
08:54:28 <rO|> XeF4: ok, mixed it up w/ ctcp whois. thx
09:06:39 <rO|> Robert: hey, expert?
09:06:46 <rO|> re Herkamire
09:07:42 <Herkamire> hi rO| :)
09:08:45 <Robert> rO|: No, just another paranoid nutcase. Hi.
09:11:18 <rO|> Robert: OK, let's face the truth ;-)
09:12:38 <rO|> Robert: AND speak it out. hopefully we're a lil bit safer here in europe. no death sentences..
09:12:54 <Robert> Nah, but they can still hand us over to the yanks.
09:14:42 <rO|> hmm. then we must go beyond mars.
09:15:03 * Robert packs his bag
09:15:08 <rO|> lol
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09:21:15 <rO|> saw lately an article about werner von braun. an amazing genius, but unfortunately a complete zero in applied ethics. high skills w/o ethics, that's scary
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10:10:23 <Serg> hi
10:10:53 <Serg> i just activated unlimited GPRS ;)) 0.75$ a day, 4 Kbit/sec
10:12:46 <qFox> 0.008889 $/mb
10:12:47 <qFox> !!
10:13:19 <Serg> at round-clock download ? not bad !
10:13:53 <qFox> if you can live with 4kbs max for 22.5$/month, sure...
10:13:58 <Serg> at work, 0.03$/Mb local, 0.07 ( or 0.12 ? ) DX
10:15:20 <Serg> 48M a day, almost 1.5 G in a month - 2 CD's ;))))
10:16:01 <Serg> i gonna cheat by enabling it for weekends only (time quant is 1 day, switch - free)
10:17:45 <qFox> 22.5$/month for a 4kbs connection would be considered rather expensive around here
10:19:07 <Serg> sure, but _mobile_ - i can use from rented room, unlike wired one
10:19:16 <qFox> ohhhh, mobile phoneish?
10:19:39 <Serg> yeah ! GPRS is GSM extension, "2.5 G"
10:20:16 <qFox> oh, then its leet
10:20:17 <qFox> :)
10:20:53 * Serg wanna try voice-chat over this
10:21:02 <mur> :)
10:21:20 <Serg> do u have any decent proggie for this ?
10:21:59 <Serg> yeah, folks ! not looking at the damn counter is GREAT !!
10:23:07 <qFox> man... inet on my mobile without having to watch the timer... saaweeeeet 
10:23:08 <qFox> :p
10:23:56 <Serg> no, not on mobile: WAP still damn expensive
10:24:04 <mur> coudl get such for 10 eur/mo i guess
10:24:20 <Serg> only comp-plugged
10:24:48 <qFox> oh
10:24:50 <Serg> or HTML browser in J2ME, but it gonna be screwy on little screen
10:24:56 <qFox> but... isnt that kinda pointless?
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10:25:10 <Serg> what pointless ?
10:25:43 <qFox> well... its still inet thru your pc?
10:26:18 <Serg> thru PC
10:26:43 <Serg> or Palm - thru phone's COM port
10:27:07 <Serg> not tryed palm yet - gonna download software ;))
10:27:21 <Serg> oops, will need gender-mender
10:27:41 <mur> gtg home
10:27:44 <mur> bbl
10:27:45 <mur> bye
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10:31:17 <Serg> qFox, w/ this system u can have unlim WAP if u write/find WAP browser what needs no wap gateway, but processes the XML itself
10:33:39 <qFox> hmmm ok
10:33:39 <qFox> :)
10:34:05 <Serg> it gonna be HIT
10:34:53 <Serg> suckingly, mobile positioning service is provided by gateway itself
10:35:55 <Serg> as well as all provider's site - too tightly integrated into cellnet itself
10:38:42 * Serg lost Siemens M50 and bought C60 - _cumpleetly_ disappointed
10:52:31 * Serg is reading netcat manual
10:57:07 <Serg> can i start a proggie w/ piping both it's STDIN/OUT into filehandles ?
10:57:33 <warpzero> what are you talking about
11:01:09 <warpzero> you mean like "proggie </path/to/input >/path/to/output"?
11:10:24 <Serg> no
11:10:58 <Serg> start("netcat host port <FILE1 >FILE2")
11:11:25 <Serg> print FILE1, "group comp.lang.forth"
11:20:30 <Herkamire> Serg: what's wrong with that?
11:21:32 <Serg> hmm... dunno
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12:06:00 <warpzero> hey Herkamire
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12:15:38 <Herkamire> hi warpzero :)
12:15:55 <Herkamire> bbiab (library
12:20:35 * Robert returns from soccer
12:22:49 <mur> soccer ball is so small, how did you fit in there?
12:32:27 <Robert> No problem
12:44:42 <slava> hi
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12:45:35 <Robert> Hi slava 
12:45:46 * Robert wonders how much of Mark's DNS code that works.
12:47:36 * slava wonders how much of slava's code works
13:02:11 <Robert> :D
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13:16:07 <Robert> Hey
13:16:13 <Robert> I440r: How much of that code is working?
13:22:17 <Herkamire> nice :) I got indianna johnes and burty&jeeves from the library in DVD
13:25:09 <slava> hi I440r
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13:50:39 <rO|> Herkamire: and do you have a dvdburner also?
14:05:46 <warpzero> can you buy systems with Arm cpus in them?
14:15:14 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
14:15:58 <warpzero> I guess so!
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15:13:49 <Robert> I440r: Alive?
15:26:52 <Herkamire> rO|: no, but I should have the ability to make mpegs
15:27:26 <Herkamire> mplayer crashes when it tries to play movies with higher resolutions (such as those on the DVDs) so the only way I can play them is to downsample to an mpeg and play that
15:30:05 <slava> hi Herkamire
15:30:08 <slava> Herkamire, how's herkforth going?
15:30:24 <Herkamire> slowly.
15:30:29 <Herkamire> I've been cranky and unmotivated.
15:30:35 <Herkamire> I wrote some good documentation today though
15:31:03 <slava> i forgot -- is it native or hosted?
15:31:14 <Herkamire> Yesterday, I was suprised to find that I had not documented any of my words in the wiki
15:31:28 <Herkamire> it runs under GNU/Linux right now
15:31:41 <slava> how many words total?
15:32:52 <slava> i'm pissed off
15:33:00 <slava> i spent the last few hours chasing a bug and it turned out to be a one-line fix
15:33:10 <slava> the compiler was generating certain jump instructions with incorrect offsets
15:33:41 <slava> in fact my compiler is a huge mess
15:34:53 <Herkamire> herkforth appears to have 653 words ATM
15:35:08 <Herkamire> I didn't document them all though :)
15:37:37 <Herkamire> average of 8 words in each definition counting the ; (but not counting the : or word being defined
15:37:46 <slava> well-factored :)
15:38:18 <Herkamire> seems high to me
15:38:31 <Herkamire> oh that's also counting all the [ and ] as words
15:39:20 <slava> how did you figure that out?
15:39:59 <Herkamire> grep -r : blocks/ | wc
15:41:13 <slava> i have an average of 6 words per definition
15:41:39 <slava> well, 'words' includes literals as well, however a literal list (which might contain more code) is counted as 1
15:41:45 <slava> let me re-do it, counting lists recursively
15:43:19 <slava>     4] words [ worddef worddef>list leaves ] map average >realnum .
15:43:19 <slava> 8.57482993197279
15:43:21 <slava> hehe
15:45:23 <warpzero> hey guys
15:45:53 <slava> hey
15:46:43 <slava> i have reached a great milestone just now -- the database can now store/retreive compiled code correctly
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15:51:21 <warpzero> slava: i don't know what you're working on but cool
15:52:04 <slava> warpzero, trying paradigms other than the tried and true 'source files' :)
15:52:22 <warpzero> slava: that is cool
15:52:57 <slava> warpzero, at the moment it doesn't do much else than automatically save colon definitions ;)
15:53:16 <warpzero> slava: you should do this for C :)
15:54:30 <slava> why C?
15:55:01 <warpzero> Because its the most commonly stored language?
15:55:15 <slava> C fits the files paradigm better
15:55:21 <slava> since its statically compiled
15:55:27 <warpzero> Hmm, good point.
15:55:47 <warpzero> My programming language environment has to store bytecode in some fun ways.
15:57:44 <slava> java's bytecode interpreter is pretty flexible actually -- you just feed it byte arrays, doesn't matter where they came from...
16:02:18 <Herkamire> if I take out [ and ] (which I don't display) and my two biggest definitions, then I average 7 words per definition (including ;)
16:10:27 <slava> Herkamire, what is your opinion on wordlists?
16:16:16 <Herkamire> what's a wordlist?
16:17:12 <slava> or vocabulary
16:17:20 <slava> like having your words modularized
16:17:32 <slava> i need to implement something like this, instead of one big dictionary ; but i'm not sure of the best way to do it
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16:21:10 <Robert> Welcome back, retired forther
16:21:19 <solar_angel> retired?
16:21:30 <Robert> I thought you said that you've had enough.
16:22:50 <solar_angel> what?
16:22:53 <Herkamire> oh, I'm not into vocabularies
16:22:57 <solar_angel> me?
16:23:00 <Herkamire> it doesn't solve a problem I've ever had
16:23:06 <Robert> solar_angel: Yes, you
16:23:07 <slava> Herkamire, you have one big dictionary?
16:23:10 <solar_angel> i'm writing an OS in FORTH!
16:23:38 <Robert> Oh. Heh :)
16:23:45 <Robert> I guess I misunderstood you
16:24:41 <slava> *anybody* into vocabularies?
16:24:54 <Herkamire> solar_angel: coool?
16:24:56 <solar_angel> slava - my FORTH kernel has seperate vocabularies.
16:25:03 <Herkamire> solar_angel: what platform? what sort of forth?
16:25:22 <solar_angel> Herkamire - x86.  DTC FORTH, my own design, non-ans.
16:25:32 <qFox> how dare you
16:25:38 <Herkamire> I use prefixes to distinguish unrelated sections
16:25:52 <solar_angel> qFox - how dare who what?
16:26:04 <qFox> huh? what? nothing
16:26:05 <qFox> :p
16:26:11 <Herkamire> I was thinking of making some sort of context or something that would not require you to type the prefix (and maybe wouldn't display it either if it was the prefix for the current context)
16:26:12 <slava> Herkamire, what about when browsing the code?
16:26:21 <Herkamire> but that's all just fancy editor features that I could add later and see if I like
16:26:42 <slava> i'm thinking of having prefixes, like <vocabulary name>.<word name> or something
16:26:47 <slava> and a 'current vocabulary'
16:26:52 <slava> for non-prefixed word
16:27:06 <slava> but that seems complex, and it will mean i can't use . in word names anymore
16:27:23 <slava> in fact i can't think of a single good separator character, since i already use so much punctuation in word names :)
16:27:24 <solar_angel> i just keep two active vocab pointers
16:27:28 <solar_angel> one for searches, one for writes
16:27:45 <slava> solar_angel, and if a word wants to call words from 2 different vocabularies?
16:27:47 <solar_angel> and i just use a word to switch into it.
16:27:54 <slava> i see
16:27:54 <solar_angel> slava - then it can.  no biggie.
16:28:12 <solar_angel> i use the defining word DICTIONARY to make a dictionary
16:28:17 <solar_angel> and the words it defines are all immediate.
16:28:19 <solar_angel> so i can call them even from the compiler.
16:28:43 <solar_angel> you're writing a FORTH kernel?
16:29:05 <slava> i'm writing a postfix language
16:29:22 <I440r> solar_angel, is MINE!!!! 
16:29:24 <I440r> hands off :P
16:29:25 <solar_angel> a postfix language...  uh...
16:29:25 <Herkamire> slava: I'm going to put the whole name with the prefix in my one dictionary
16:29:26 <slava> hey I440r
16:29:27 <I440r> smooch!
16:29:30 <I440r> hi
16:29:30 <solar_angel> lol I440r :)
16:29:39 <I440r> *snicker*
16:29:40 <solar_angel> actually, i'm SarahEmm's.
16:29:44 <Herkamire> there can be a fancy feature in the editor to not display the prefix, and to prepend it to words typed
16:29:46 <I440r> she's mine too then :P
16:29:49 <slava> Herkamire, yes, but i'm thinking of having vocabs more for browsing purposes
16:30:06 <Herkamire> what do you mean browsing purposes?
16:30:08 <I440r> vocabs help keep the cruft to a minimum
16:30:09 <slava> Herkamire, and my object db is well suited to storing hierarchical data; i don't want huge flat lists there
16:30:15 <I440r> you dont want a forth vocabulary of 24985629384756923 words
16:30:17 <solar_angel> lol I440r.
16:30:24 <solar_angel> vocabs are really useful.
16:30:27 <slava> Herkamire, i store documentation in the object db as well!
16:30:29 <I440r> makes compile times faster by reducing how much you need to search
16:30:40 <solar_angel> i'm working on a new defining word called NAMESPACE right now with different semantics.
16:30:40 <slava> Herkamire, so it would be nice to open 'string' vocab, see a list of string words + docs.
16:30:47 <I440r> solar does your forth use hashed vocabs ?
16:31:20 <solar_angel> hashed vocabs?  no, i'm strictly linked-list.
16:31:42 <solar_angel> i do have dictionary trees though :)
16:31:57 <solar_angel> i can have vocabs inside of vocabs, and such
16:31:59 <solar_angel> evil, but fun.
16:32:23 <I440r> ooh i want to use nested vocabs on my 8051 target forth compiler
16:32:47 <solar_angel> they're actually trivially easy.
16:33:56 <slava> how does it work?
16:34:41 <Robert> I440r: Hey, there you are
16:34:47 <Robert> I440r: How much of that code work? :)
16:34:54 <I440r> none
16:34:59 <I440r> but its along the right lines
16:35:21 <solar_angel> slava - just make the defining word define a variable to hold the top of dictionary object.
16:35:25 <solar_angel> it's quite simple.
16:35:26 <Robert> Heh
16:35:32 <Robert> So first I should debug your code, then finish it?
16:35:37 <solar_angel> : DICTIONARY ( -- )
16:35:38 <slava> solar_angel, i mean syntax-wise.
16:35:40 <solar_angel>         CREATE
16:35:40 <solar_angel>         VOCAB @ ,
16:35:40 <solar_angel>         IMMEDIATE
16:35:40 <solar_angel>         DOES>
16:35:40 <solar_angel>         (VOCAB) !
16:35:40 <solar_angel>         ;
16:35:47 <solar_angel> oh.
16:35:48 <solar_angel> i put:
16:35:51 <solar_angel> DICTIONARY mydict
16:35:55 <solar_angel> mydict >DICTIONARY
16:36:00 <solar_angel> at the top of each module
16:36:09 <solar_angel> and then when i'm done, i go DEFAULTS >DICTIONARY
16:36:09 <I440r> your calling your vocabularies dictionaries then ?
16:36:17 <solar_angel> I440r - yes, this kind of vocabulary i am.
16:36:28 <solar_angel> i'm now also building one that i call a namespace
16:36:31 <solar_angel> that has totally different semantics.
16:36:39 <slava> i have namespaces and dictionaries too
16:36:39 <Robert> I use "dictionary mydict", and then to use it, "use mydict".
16:36:40 <slava> funny
16:37:08 <Robert> In the Forth OS I wrote. Maybe you'd like to have a peek at it, solar_angel? It's not very well-made, but maybe it could give you some ideas.
16:37:08 <slava> in namespaces the lookup of names is done at runtime; in dictionaries its parse time
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16:38:21 <solar_angel> Robert - i like your idea...  but i'm happy with the way mine works.
16:38:29 <solar_angel> the 'use' keyword seems unnecessary
16:38:39 <solar_angel> and my >DICTIONARY word is only used to set the *output* dictionary
16:38:46 <solar_angel> i can define words in one dictionary while using words from another.
16:39:12 <Robert> solar_angel: Mostly syntatic sugar.
16:39:13 <solar_angel> slava - runtime lookup?  yucky :P
16:39:24 <solar_angel> Robert - no, not really. 
16:39:29 <solar_angel> wait, what is?  USE?
16:39:31 <slava> solar_angel, why? it lets you also pick the namespace to look inside at runtime too
16:39:32 <solar_angel> yes, USE is syntactic sugar.,
16:39:39 <Robert> solar_angel: Do you use hashed dictionaries?
16:39:41 <solar_angel> slava - it's *slow*, that's why.
16:39:43 <Robert> solar_angel: Yep, "use".
16:39:47 <I440r> solar thats easy, you jsut make one vocab the current and have other vocabs also in the search order
16:39:49 <solar_angel> Robert - nope.  i don't have a use for hashed dictionaries.
16:40:01 <Robert> solar_angel: OK, why is that?
16:40:03 <slava> solar_angel, disk I/O is slow too -- should that *always* be avoided? :)
16:40:09 <solar_angel> I440r - hehehe, that's cool... mine doesn't have a search order, as such.
16:40:11 <I440r> solar hashed dictionaries make your compiles MUCH faster
16:40:11 <solar_angel> it chains dictionaries
16:40:21 <solar_angel> I440r - no, no they don't, not really.
16:40:28 <solar_angel> i keep my dictionaries nice and lean.
16:40:36 <solar_angel> slava - if at all possible, yes.
16:40:39 <I440r> solar they do - thats why i can compile as fast as i can :)
16:41:23 <solar_angel> I440r - hrm...  it might help a tiny little bit..  but i doubt that you'd see all that much benefit for really small dictionaries.
16:41:40 <solar_angel> i keep my dictionaries small... i don't have much problem with it.
16:41:56 <I440r> solar probably not on small ones but it wont slow those down any and its a HUGE speed improvement on larger ones
16:42:13 <Robert> solar_angel: Even the dicts for the basic set of words=
16:42:29 <Robert> solar_angel: I.e. fetching, storing, arithmetics..
16:43:23 <solar_angel> I440r - depending on how it's implemented, it *can* slow down compilation...  and it tends to need a bit of a more complex data structure, which i want to avoid, and makes "define order" ambiguous.
16:43:57 <solar_angel> besides... once i finish namespace support, i'll be able to really trim my dicts down.
16:44:13 <slava> solar_angel, how do your namespaces differ from your dictionaries?
16:44:55 <solar_angel> slava - namespaces have no context link.
16:45:06 <slava> what's a context link?
16:45:06 <I440r> solar yea my words dont list in order of creation :)
16:45:11 <solar_angel> a namespace has only two entries in it, "DEFAULT", and ">DICTIONARY".
16:45:20 <solar_angel> I440r - well, define order matters to me.
16:45:40 <solar_angel> slava - a context link links one dictionary to it's parent dictionary in the search order.
16:45:48 <slava> solar_angel, i see
16:51:38 <Herkamire> slava: oh, I see. you use vocabularies to group words so you can view the list and find the word(s) you want
16:52:09 <Herkamire> that sounds useful, but currently I do that by putting those definitions in the same bloc
16:52:12 <Herkamire> k
16:52:30 <Herkamire> I may stop using blocks, but I'll definitely have a way to group definitions
16:52:57 <I440r> top - 18:52:57 up 23:38,  1 user,  load average: 2.02, 2.00, 1.46
16:52:58 <I440r> Tasks:  75 total,   1 running,  74 sleeping,   0 stopped,   0 zombie
16:52:58 <I440r> Cpu(s):  0.2% us,  0.0% sy,  0.0% ni, 99.8% id,  0.0% wa,  0.0% hi,  0.0% si
16:52:58 <I440r> Me
16:53:03 <Herkamire> I have no problem having many thousands of entries in my dictionary
16:53:03 <I440r> ok, whats wrong with that picture
16:53:10 <Herkamire> 1) I don't search it at compile or runtime
16:53:27 <Herkamire> 2) if it's slow I'd make a hash table, (which is a tree structure anyway)
16:54:08 <slava> Herkamire, see i don't have blocks
16:54:18 <slava> Herkamire, i have source files, but not for long; once the db is more robust i will use it for everything
16:54:47 <Herkamire> right
16:55:00 <Herkamire> I agree that it's good to have logical groupings of words for looking around in
16:56:34 <I440r> damnit why is my load avg at 2 when my cpu is at 0.00000000000000000000001
16:57:57 <Herkamire> slava: do save the source as text? or as references to dictionary entries?
16:58:10 <slava> Herkamire, in the db, the latter
16:58:20 <Herkamire> very cool
16:58:22 <Herkamire> that's what I do
16:58:41 <slava> i don't see the advantage though
16:58:50 <I440r> brb rebooting
16:58:57 <slava> Herkamire, i have an issue with forth-style vocab lists
16:59:00 <I440r> cant get my usb drives to work grrr
16:59:04 --- quit: I440r ("brb")
16:59:05 <slava> Herkamire, suppose you have a file that imports vocab A and vocab B
16:59:10 <slava> Herkamire, and the file calls a word X from A
16:59:19 <slava> Herkamire, then, developer of vocab B adds word X to B
16:59:28 <slava> Herkamire, the file, next time its compiled, now refers to X from B
16:59:36 <slava> Herkamire, this wouldn't happen if prefixes were required
17:00:05 <Herkamire> yeah, that's why I'm hessitant to use vocabularies
17:00:10 <solar_angel> actually slava, in my FORTH, i don't have that problem.
17:00:10 <Herkamire> it introduces some ambiguity
17:00:28 <solar_angel> there's no ambiguity because i do *NOT* hash my dictionaries.
17:00:59 <slava> solar_angel, still, if a word with the same name is added to a vocab at the end of the search path, the same problem will exist
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17:01:15 <solar_angel> search path?
17:01:20 <solar_angel> i don't have a search path.
17:01:26 <solar_angel> you really should listen to my words and not your misconceptions :P
17:01:49 <slava> ah you have only 1 vocab to search in at any time
17:01:50 <slava> right
17:02:00 <solar_angel> almost
17:02:06 <solar_angel> that's if i'm using namespaces
17:02:10 <solar_angel> i have a backreference chain though
17:02:20 <solar_angel> anything defined until the dictionary is defined is also available in that dictionary.
17:03:02 <Herkamire> slava: here's a couple things I like about storing source as dictionary references: 1) fast compile (no dict lookups at compile time) 2) the editor has easy access to information about the word at edit time (such as if it's a variable or not) 3) you know that the words in your source exist in the dictionary
17:03:44 <Herkamire> I can't tell you how many times I've written a source file (in varrious languages), only to have the compiler tell me that one of my functions doesn't exist
17:03:46 --- join: I440r (~mark4@168-215-246-243.gen.twtelecom.net) joined #forth
17:03:46 --- quit: I440r (Client Quit)
17:03:56 <Herkamire> because of a typo, or because I wasn't sure of the name
17:04:03 <Herkamire> in herkforth I get instant feedback
17:04:08 <slava> in my language if you refer to a non-existent word its added to the dictionary
17:04:17 <slava> but without a definition
17:04:25 --- join: I440r (~mark4@168-215-246-243.gen.twtelecom.net) joined #forth
17:04:25 --- quit: I440r (Client Quit)
17:04:32 <Herkamire> I only do that for a define color
17:04:52 --- join: I440r (~mark4@168-215-246-243.gen.twtelecom.net) joined #forth
17:05:44 <solar_angel> define color?
17:07:00 <Herkamire> solar_angel: my forth uses color to distinguish what a word does.
17:07:05 <slava> i have an idea
17:07:09 <Herkamire> instead of interpret/compile modes
17:07:13 <slava> each vocabulary defines a parsing word with that vocabulary's name
17:07:15 <solar_angel> ah, it's a colorforth.
17:07:20 <Herkamire> words that are executed by the compiler display in yellow
17:07:27 <slava> this parsing word reads the next word, but internalizes that read word in that vocabulary
17:07:32 <Herkamire> words that are compiled by the compiler display in green
17:07:32 <slava> strings: lenght
17:07:40 <Herkamire> red words start a new definition
17:07:50 <Herkamire> magenta defines a constant
17:08:00 <Herkamire> white displays a variable
17:08:00 <slava> plus there will be a setup like solar_angel, with a search vocab, and write vocab -- but they won't be nested.
17:08:58 <slava> Herkamire, when i write the language-specific editor, i might use color instead of showing some parsing words
17:09:07 <Herkamire> slava: yeah
17:09:11 <Herkamire> slava: it doesn't really matter
17:09:25 <slava> eg, #=word pushes a token without executing it
17:09:27 <Herkamire> slava: I prefer the colors, but some people don't even like syntax highlighting
17:09:29 <slava> i could show this as a color instead
17:09:45 <Herkamire> I've already written code to display the code without color (for exporting to ascii files)
17:09:49 <solar_angel> i like syntax hilighting.
17:10:13 <Herkamire> solar_angel: me too :)
17:10:22 <Herkamire> I wrote a syntax highlighting mode for herkforth
17:10:41 <solar_angel> it's possible i might add a colorforth to my OS eventually...
17:10:42 <solar_angel> oh right, my FORTH kernel is self-hosting.
17:10:44 <solar_angel> it's a full OS.
17:11:08 <Herkamire> solar_angel: congrats :)
17:11:17 <Herkamire> that's a hurdle I haven't even started on yet
17:11:52 <solar_angel> hehehe :)
17:12:00 <solar_angel> you're planning to do that at some point?
17:12:56 <I440r> everyone nag solar_angel into releasing the sources for her os :)
17:13:49 <slava> solar_angel, got a link for your os?
17:14:08 <solar_angel> slava - http://caladan.nanosoft.ca/cyvos.php
17:14:15 <Herkamire> solar_angel: release the source to your os! (prefereably under GPL)
17:14:34 <solar_angel> Herkamire - no. :P
17:14:50 <solar_angel> in fact, i haven't even released a modern version of my OS in quite a while because i don't want it reverse-engineered either :P
17:15:18 <I440r> solar_angel, lol
17:15:31 <I440r> i regged IDA so i would have NO problems doing that:)
17:15:40 <I440r> everyone keep nagging her :P
17:15:44 <I440r> *snicker*
17:15:48 <solar_angel> hehehe.
17:15:56 <I440r> smooch
17:15:57 <solar_angel> and i'll just tell you that if you sign an NDA and pay a license fee, you can see the source.
17:16:04 <I440r> neway its almost going home time
17:16:24 * I440r gets his left handed pen ready
17:16:31 <I440r> and his monopoly money
17:16:41 <solar_angel> lol
17:17:47 <I440r> solar do you code professionally or just as a hobby ?
17:18:14 <solar_angel> hrm...  depends what you consider in each category, really.
17:18:19 <solar_angel> i don't work, as such...
17:18:36 <I440r> your a millionaire ?
17:18:39 <I440r> MARRY ME!!!!
17:18:40 <slava> haha
17:18:44 <slava> I440r, i'll marry you
17:18:45 <solar_angel> no, i'm not a millionaire.
17:18:48 <solar_angel> i'm poor.
17:18:51 <I440r> a cutensex linux coder chixy babe with MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!
17:19:06 <solar_angel> in fact, i'm many tens of g's in debt.
17:19:11 <solar_angel> and disabled.
17:19:34 <solar_angel> that's most of why i'm not giving out my OS as freely...  it's the one hope i really have of making a bit of money.
17:19:49 <I440r> :(
17:20:05 <I440r> well i honestly hope it makes you rich
17:20:12 <slava> solar_angel, if you want to make money, learn java and code web apps... its boring but its the easiest way nowadays.
17:20:13 <I440r> my forth compielr got me my last job indirectly
17:20:28 * I440r hugz solar_angel
17:20:31 <solar_angel> slava - i'd rather die. and i mean that.
17:20:33 <I440r> i gotta go :/
17:20:36 <I440r> need PHOOD!!!
17:20:43 <slava> solar_angel, not much $$$ in forth nowadays.
17:20:44 <I440r> solar me too
17:20:57 <slava> solar_angel, unless you push it as an embedded os
17:21:06 <solar_angel> slava - i don't much care.  i'll be on disability before too long anyway.
17:21:10 <solar_angel> and yes, it's an embedded OS.
17:21:11 <I440r> write a tcp/ip stack in forth and market that
17:21:16 <I440r> i mean a FULL tcp/ip stack
17:21:19 <solar_angel> I440r - working on it already.
17:21:45 <I440r> my isforth irc bot will be here any second
17:22:10 <solar_angel> hehehe
17:22:17 <solar_angel> you wrote a bot in forth?
17:22:20 <I440r> yes
17:22:24 <I440r> its a do nothing irc bot
17:22:34 <solar_angel> ah
17:22:37 <I440r> its in the released isforth source tree
17:22:45 <I440r> it will be a do something bot eventually
17:22:55 <I440r> but i have higher priorities right now
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17:23:01 <I440r> like the documenttaion for what i already have
17:23:05 --- join: [Forth] (~Forth@168-215-246-243.gen.twtelecom.net) joined #forth
17:23:07 <I440r> ther
17:23:09 <I440r> e
17:23:18 <I440r> thats 100% forth
17:23:38 <slava> I440r, how much work did it take?
17:23:43 <slava> does it do anything?
17:23:44 <I440r> very little
17:23:54 <I440r> no it doesnt do anything yet except respond to server pings
17:24:01 <I440r> and the numerics stuff needs to be reworked
17:24:12 <Robert> solar_angel: I checked that page of yours, but it doesn't mention any goals of the OS project (other than the obvious - to make an OS :), could you please explain some more about this?
17:24:15 --- join: factorbot (~factorbot@CPE00096ba44261-CM000e5cdfda14.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth
17:24:15 <factorbot> Hello everybody
17:24:25 <slava> eval 2 2 + .
17:24:25 <factorbot> 4
17:24:45 <slava> I440r is a focker
17:24:46 <slava> I440r
17:24:47 <factorbot> I440r is a focker
17:24:47 <I440r> slava [forth] will eventually allow you to program it live in channel
17:25:09 <slava> eval "I'm stupid" print
17:25:09 <factorbot> I'm stupid
17:25:17 <Robert> I440r: And it does save the words you teach it? ;)
17:25:22 <slava> eval stats
17:25:22 <factorbot> Contains prohibited words
17:25:26 <solar_angel> Robert - goals...  "do whatever i want".
17:25:28 <solar_angel> it's my OS.
17:25:37 <I440r> no it doesnt do so YET
17:25:49 <slava> insult Robert
17:25:49 <factorbot> Robert sucks
17:25:51 <slava> :)
17:25:51 <I440r> you will be programming it in channel one word at a time.
17:26:05 <Robert> solar_angel: OK, no special thing in mind? Moving out in the woods with a homemade vacuum tube computer and the Forth OS?
17:26:16 <Robert> slava: Thanks. 
17:26:18 <solar_angel> Robert - if the world ends in my lifetime, yes.
17:26:35 <solar_angel> actually, my ultimate goal is to use it as the master OS of an army of robots, to annihilate all life on earth.
17:26:42 <slava> that's mean
17:26:44 <Robert> solar_angel: Ah, great
17:26:50 <I440r> heh my bot doesnt even detach from the tmerinal yet, i was too lazy to fork it
17:27:01 <Robert> slava: Well, they'll run out of stack space and the humans win.
17:27:08 <I440r> all life except forth programmers you mean ?
17:27:13 <solar_angel> Robert - run out of stack space?
17:27:15 <solar_angel> I440r - of course!
17:27:20 <I440r> phew :)
17:27:22 <solar_angel> we need *somebody* rebuild world to
17:27:27 <Robert> Heh!
17:27:32 <Robert> A world built by Forthers
17:27:36 <Robert> Now THAT would be interesting.
17:28:06 <solar_angel> Robert - and efficient :)
17:28:12 <I440r> lol
17:28:22 <I440r> err we need to teach more girls forth
17:28:25 <I440r> im not sharing :P
17:28:37 <I440r> and i KNOW there aint ennuff to go arround
17:29:00 <slava> forth would be a good teaching language instead of pascal or C or all that other junk
17:29:21 <I440r> slava thats part of my plan, teach more people forth 
17:29:24 <solar_angel> forth is a good everything language.
17:29:29 <I440r> thats why im doing isforth (or part of the reason)
17:29:31 <slava> solar_angel, that's exxageration
17:29:36 <I440r> no its not
17:29:38 <Robert> I440r: Hey, good idea. I'll tell her "no more games until you learn ten more Forth words!"
17:29:44 <solar_angel> slava - no, it's not.
17:29:45 <I440r> ive never see ANY application that forht was not well suited to
17:29:46 <Robert> I440r: My little sister, that is.
17:29:58 <slava> I440r, show me one large GUI app written in forth :)
17:29:58 <Robert> solar_angel: You sound like Chuck there
17:30:01 <solar_angel> anyway...  autistic people (like myself) take naturally to RPN languages.
17:30:06 <I440r> slava give me time
17:30:09 <I440r> its on my todo list
17:30:15 <solar_angel> Robert - i had pretty much invented FORTH on my own before i read about it.
17:30:21 <slava> solar_angel, i find RPN good for everything except math
17:30:23 <solar_angel> if i were 50 years older, you'd know my name instead of Chucks :P
17:30:26 <slava> solar_angel, being a math major, i have infix hardwired...
17:30:49 <I440r> slava whats math ?
17:30:50 <solar_angel> slava - i'm a hardware engineer... RPN makes the most sense to us :P
17:31:00 <Robert> solar_angel: I doubt it, considering the kind of equipment available in the 60s, but still - well done.
17:31:11 <slava> bbl.
17:31:16 <solar_angel> thanks Robert.
17:31:25 <Robert> I think RPN feels natural when it comes to math.
17:31:38 <I440r> rpn is more natural
17:31:38 <Robert> The infix notation of my TI calculator never stops to bother me.
17:31:39 <solar_angel> and anyway...  i designed a 32-bit FORTH CPU that fits in about the size of a 6502.
17:31:40 <solar_angel> so don't knock it :P
17:31:50 <Robert> solar_angel: FPGA?
17:31:52 <I440r> 6502 rocks
17:31:55 <solar_angel> 60's tech could have built one.
17:31:56 <I440r> newy i gotta go eat
17:32:01 <I440r> phood is required
17:32:10 <solar_angel> Robert - actually, i designed it in 7400-series TTL SSI.
17:32:22 <Robert> solar_angel: Hehe, I imagine you coding Forth on a pile of Ge transistors. :D
17:32:29 <solar_angel> 1970's technology could have realized it quite readily.
17:32:31 <Robert> solar_angel: Did you build it, too?
17:32:45 <solar_angel> Robert - i was about 5% through building it when i had to move suddenly.
17:32:50 <solar_angel> i have all the parts though, as far as i know.
17:32:56 <Robert> Neat.
17:33:18 <Robert> I saw how cheap BJTs are in large quantities, and I must say I'm still tempted...
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17:33:42 <futhin> i would take on the responsibility of rebuilding the world since i have actually studied the issues of it all
17:33:55 <futhin> btw remember everyone, computers are gay
17:33:58 <Robert> But you're nuts.
17:34:16 <Robert> Even with Forth standards. Maybe because you don't code much Forth...
17:34:42 <slava> i think forth doesn't qualify as a universal language simply because there's not as many libraries available for it as, say, c++ or java
17:34:53 <slava> so sure you *could* do anything, but a lot would have to be done yourself
17:34:57 <solar_angel> futhin - alright...  how are computers gay?  and is that a good or bad thing?
17:35:20 <futhin> gay in a negative way
17:35:25 <futhin> not that i'm against homosexuals at all
17:35:36 <futhin> "gay" is just one of my favorite swear words
17:35:43 * solar_angel whacks futhin for being annoying.
17:35:51 <solar_angel> <--- lesbian and proud.
17:35:53 <futhin> slava: we don't want libraries
17:36:17 <slava> you're blind if you think so
17:36:20 <slava> code reuse is a great thing
17:36:29 <solar_angel> Robert - who's nuts for what?
17:36:47 <futhin> slava: there are other ways to code reuse obviously
17:36:53 <Robert> solar_angel: Futhin is, for having insane ideas.
17:36:58 <slava> futhin, well, 'writing everything yourself' is not reuse
17:37:05 <solar_angel> slava - code reuse is all well and good...  but i've written a standard lib before, it's not that hard.
17:37:11 <futhin> didn't suggest that, don't jump to assumptions heh
17:37:20 <slava> solar_angel, what 'standard lib'?
17:37:33 <futhin> nah i'm just smarter than robert, he still hasn't grokked forth afaik
17:37:50 <solar_angel> slava - it was a C++ library, to do everything from strings to threads to streams.
17:37:53 <futhin> too much C exposure sadly :(
17:38:04 <futhin> imperative language exposure to be more specific
17:38:15 <Robert> futhin: Heh. I know Forth.
17:38:39 <slava> solar_angel, did it do GUI, XSL, database access, ... you can't always code everything yourself
17:39:07 <futhin> robert: knowing how to code forth, knowing the vocabulary and knowing how it all works has nothing to do with grokking forth
17:39:19 <slava> futhin, stop the elitism
17:39:27 <slava> only chuck knows forth
17:39:31 <Robert> futhin: Then explain what you consider "knowing Forth".
17:40:12 <solar_angel> slava - one of my other libs did GUI, another 2 did 3D rendering and realtime...  XSL/XML/etc is a buzzword bunch of tripe that i could care less about.
17:40:19 <futhin> the word grok doesn't translate directly into "know"
17:40:38 <solar_angel> slava - i take exception to that.  i know forth.
17:40:39 <Robert> futhin: OK, my goal of life isn't "groking" Forth anyway, so...
17:41:10 <Robert> Just knowing it is all right.
17:41:16 <solar_angel> slava - anyway, another of my apps did optimizing native code generation, another did sound (and decoded mp2's and played .mod's)...
17:41:18 <solar_angel> what else...
17:41:21 * solar_angel takes another breath.
17:41:29 <solar_angel> i disagree.  i *can* code everything.
17:41:35 <slava> solar_angel, sure its *possible*, i could code all that too... but it takes time; if your language doesn't have native libraries and you code everything yourself, you're less productive.
17:41:44 <slava> this is why forth is not perfect for *everything*
17:42:05 <futhin> robert: are you able to code in forth the forth way as opposed to the c way? 
17:42:07 <solar_angel> it doesn't take that much time, actually...  the most time-consumptive part is *learning* how to do it, not *doing* it.
17:42:19 <futhin> i.e. have you unlearned your C coding paradigms?
17:42:21 <slava> solar_angel, still, time is time is money.
17:42:34 <Robert> futhin: I'm not free of sin, Father.
17:42:37 <solar_angel> slava - whatever.  i'm not getting back on the treadmill.
17:42:39 <solar_angel> i'd rather die.
17:42:51 <rO|> Robert: lol
17:42:57 <Robert> solar_angel: Can code everything?
17:43:02 <solar_angel> i'm here to have fun, not make some asshole millionaire millions.
17:43:06 <solar_angel> Robert - yep, why not?
17:43:06 <slava> if i had infinite time, i could do everything in hand-coded machine code.
17:43:18 <solar_angel> slava - that's pointless, and a true waste of effort.
17:43:23 <slava> indeed.
17:43:24 <Robert> solar_angel: I'm just curious about your definition of "anything".
17:43:26 <solar_angel> my efforts focus on properly *factoring* my efforts.
17:43:30 <slava> as is using forth (or any one language) for *everything*.
17:43:41 <solar_angel> Robert - any software that i need, i can code, sooner or later.
17:43:55 <solar_angel> slava - then you truly don't grok forth.
17:44:03 <Robert> solar_angel: I'll believe that when I see your robot army.
17:44:08 <solar_angel> the thing about forth you need to understand is that it's *NOT* a single language
17:44:15 <solar_angel> i'm writing a forth assembler now, and then i'll port my code generator to it.
17:44:30 <solar_angel> Robert - would some bilinearly-interpolated mipmapped test renders suffice for now?
17:45:03 <Robert> solar_angel: My BASIC buzzword generator beats that.
17:45:23 <slava> solar_angel, forth is not a single langauge in the same sense that c is not a single language, just because you can define your own functions in c.
17:45:23 <futhin> robert: what are you? what defines you? are you a programmer? or something else?
17:45:26 <solar_angel> i'm still learning how to build robots...  but i've got some cool pics of circuit-boards etched using etch chemistry i designed around if you want to see :P
17:45:44 <slava> solar_angel, immediate words do not make a language 'universal'.
17:45:44 <solar_angel> slava - no... it's way more than that.  you can't extend the compiler in C.  you can in FORTH.
17:45:53 <Robert> solar_angel: Ehm, but OK, I'm not saying you're a bad coder. I just say that "everything" is a pretty big thing.
17:45:58 <slava> solar_angel, i can extend the c compiler by changing gcc sources.
17:46:00 <slava> bbl dinner
17:46:15 <solar_angel> Robert - sure it is.
17:46:22 <Robert> futhin: I'm a little bit of everything
17:46:25 <solar_angel> Robert - but as you factor it deeper and deeper, it gets easier to do.
17:46:47 <solar_angel> Robert - i mean...  i build things, i design chemical systems...  i do lots of things outside of computers.
17:46:50 <solar_angel> it's all about factoring
17:47:02 <solar_angel> and here in a FORTH channel is the one place i'd expect people to agree with that last statement.
17:47:12 <Robert> Yes, I learned that when I started to build radios.
17:47:25 <Robert> As a whole it's complicated - but when factored, a piece of a cake.
17:47:31 <solar_angel> exactly!
17:47:39 <solar_angel> it's like when i learned how to make mirrors...
17:47:50 <solar_angel> see, cathode sputtering is an interesting process to learn
17:48:08 <solar_angel> it's also one of the most important parts of making IC's.
17:48:20 <solar_angel> well, small scale IC's anyway.
17:48:21 <Robert> Making your own ICs, are you?
17:48:25 <solar_angel> VLSI is another story.
17:48:26 <solar_angel> not yet, no.
17:48:28 <solar_angel> but eventually.
17:48:37 <Robert> I'd like making a transistor of my own.
17:48:41 <futhin> robert: i don't really know how to explain forth to you, i've done it before but i don't think you necessarily agreed.  essentially forth isn't a programming language per se, and because its sufficiently different from imperative languages it has its own methodology
17:48:56 <Robert> I like simple things.
17:49:01 <solar_angel> futhin - darn tootin :)
17:49:15 <solar_angel> Robert - if i make an IC, it'll be more like a 7400 than a P4.
17:49:22 <solar_angel> but even a 7400 is a step.
17:49:24 <solar_angel> *shrugs*
17:49:51 <Robert> futhin: I get your point. And I try to choose the best/easiest way available, whenever I have a problem.
17:49:56 <Robert> solar_angel: Hehe, indeed it is. :)
17:50:19 <Robert> solar_angel: Would be pretty cool if you managed to make one though
17:50:26 <Robert> solar_angel: Every heard of people making their own ICs?
17:50:30 <solar_angel> Robert - of course.
17:50:37 <solar_angel> well, as for people doing it...
17:50:41 <futhin> robert: what do you mean by best/easiest way avaiable?
17:50:46 <solar_angel> the original team that invented the IC was quite small.
17:50:48 <solar_angel> a couple people at most.
17:50:57 <solar_angel> it's mostly that people are *afraid* to make IC's than that it's especially hard.
17:51:12 <solar_angel> people fear doing hard things
17:51:16 <Robert> futhin: Basically that sometimes I'm too lazy to do it the politically correct (as in - Chuck would like it) way.
17:51:25 <Robert> futhin: Although I try to, and sometimes I do it.
17:51:43 <Robert> solar_angel: For a good reason!
17:51:50 <Robert> solar_angel: I mean with reasonable resources
17:52:00 <Robert> solar_angel: Not with the TI labs behind you.
17:52:04 <rO|> btw forth is not yet a wide spread language.. is there something missing? or eleet, nothing for the unwashed masses?
17:52:21 <solar_angel> futhin - in forth, instead of trying to define a set of steps that the program does, you instead try to define a way of describing the problem to be solved.  by the time you've described it, there is no problem left to be solved, and the program is finished.  coding by not-coding.  it's cool.
17:52:34 <Robert> rO|: Missing? Similarity to infix notation. ;)
17:52:40 <futhin> robert: well i think thats more a case of falling back on C paradigms because you are already more comfortable with those
17:52:41 <solar_angel> rO| - it's hard for a novice to use.
17:52:56 <rO|> solar_angel: ack
17:53:08 <futhin> robert: i think forth paradigms is the way to code the fastest in forth (overrall)
17:53:15 <futhin> however it would help to use the interactive nature..
17:53:21 <futhin> rather than coding an an editor and running that
17:53:30 <solar_angel> Robert - you need all of a bell jar and vaccum pump, some sturdy wire and a high-voltage supply, and a couple simple chemicals.
17:53:33 <solar_angel> it's not really all that hard to do.
17:53:57 <futhin> solar_angel: i agree..  i consider forth the absence of a programming language..  you seem to grok it :)
17:54:19 <Robert> solar_angel: Not if you really want to do it, I guess not. The problem is that most people wouldn't spend $1000 on doing something they could buy for a cent.
17:54:24 <Robert> solar_angel: Except geeks.
17:55:01 <Robert> futhin: Forth still is based on a number of low-level elements that are (relatively) far from human thinking.
17:55:03 <solar_angel> futhin - it's a programming language without a compiler, a parser, code generator or syntax, where the variables are constant and the constants are executable :)
17:55:13 <solar_angel> Robert - most people are boring.
17:55:24 <Robert> solar_angel: Except the mad ones, right?
17:55:33 <futhin> exactly!
17:55:36 <futhin> thats why i try to be mad
17:55:40 <futhin> to entertain myself
17:55:42 <futhin> :D
17:55:42 <solar_angel> Robert - FORTH is based on a number of low-level elements that are relatively far from neurotypical human thinking...  but those of us on the autistic spectrum grok it naturally.
17:56:01 <futhin> solar_angel: or it depends on the personality type
17:56:10 <futhin> chuck moore is INTP, kc5tja is INTP, i'm INTP etc :P
17:56:22 <Robert> futhin: And it DOES have a kind of a syntax, which makes it just an approximation of human thinking.
17:56:56 <solar_angel> futhin - my personality type is unmeasurable.
17:57:13 <solar_angel> i have extremes of all 8 categories
17:57:29 <futhin> solar_angel: yeah but the test spits back 4 letters at you
17:57:34 <futhin> regardless of your extremes..
17:57:49 <futhin> you can't cheat and just look at all the categories and say "yes thats me"
17:58:38 <solar_angel> futhin - no...  but each of me has a totally different response.
17:58:40 <Robert> solar_angel: Please explain that a little further. What kind of low-level elements do you think you (compared to "normal" humans) easily grok?
17:59:01 <solar_angel> Robert - i'm not really sure what ordinary humans easily grok, other than this social interaction thing...
17:59:10 <solar_angel> they tend to understand the "how to talk to people" better than the "how to build things"
17:59:15 <solar_angel> or that's been my observation
17:59:16 <Robert> solar_angel: OK, then leave that part out.
17:59:24 <solar_angel> i'm the total reverse.
17:59:28 <solar_angel> i'm hopeless around people
17:59:35 <solar_angel> although it's less so now than it used to be
17:59:38 <solar_angel> but i see how things are built
17:59:42 <solar_angel> the layers upon layers upon layers
17:59:58 <futhin> definitely sounds like autism or asperger's syndrome there
18:00:07 <Robert> Well, that people are boring isn't YOUR fault.
18:00:24 <futhin> i thought i had asperger's syndrome once but i don't have all the crazy symptoms
18:00:26 <Robert> And I don't think there's a connection between that and engineering skills.
18:00:28 <solar_angel> i look at a circuit board, and the image of the jig needed to cut the grooves in the side of the high-tension screen frames needed to print the resist springs to mind immediately.
18:00:30 <futhin> like clumsiness
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18:00:49 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja
18:01:00 <solar_angel> i built an entire set of screen printing equipment for circuit board fabrication, right down to things like making the ball bearings because i couldn't find any.
18:01:15 <futhin> Robert: there is a rise of autistic children in silicon valley because many of the high tech people have asperger's syndrome, and when they mate, the kids become autistic
18:01:25 <solar_angel> futhin - i get the sensory impairments...  i can't go out in the sun... ick.
18:01:54 <Robert> Ouch.
18:02:01 <futhin> robert: are you good at sports?
18:02:10 <Robert> That gives "hobby: hiding from the sun" a whole new meaning.
18:02:18 <futhin> solar_angel: what do you mean you can't go out in the sun?
18:02:22 <Robert> futhin: Only 5-in-a-row.
18:02:29 <futhin> whats that?
18:02:45 <solar_angel> futhin - i mean it hurts my eyes, badly...  and if i wear a short-sleeve top on a sunny day, i can feel it on my skin, and it hurts.
18:03:02 <Robert> futhin: We call it "bum chess". Basically tic-tac-toe with an infinite field and 5 in a row instead of 3.
18:03:18 <Robert> Called gomoku in MINIX.
18:03:24 <Robert> And I don't know if that's a general name.
18:03:33 <futhin> Robert: is that a physical activity?  thats what i meant when i said "sports"
18:04:06 <futhin> solar_angel: well my eyes hurt when i go out but i write that off due to too much tv/computers and time spent inside
18:04:17 <Robert> futhin: No...
18:04:23 <Robert> futhin: Why are you asking?
18:04:26 <futhin> robert: are you good at sports?
18:04:29 <solar_angel> futhin - well, there are other things too...  small pains are excruciating, but large pains i can't feel at all...
18:04:30 <Robert> futhin: No.
18:04:31 <solar_angel> that sort of thing.
18:04:37 <futhin> cuz if you werne't you might have a touch of asperger's syndrome yourself
18:04:44 <futhin> you certainly seem techie enough
18:04:51 <Robert> Are you crazy?
18:04:57 <Robert> Not being good at sports -> asperger's?
18:05:06 <futhin> asperger's syndrome is basically a really mild autism
18:05:09 <slava> what is asperger's?
18:05:16 <solar_angel> futhin's definition is close enough.
18:05:38 <futhin> a lot of technically oriented people have asperger's syndrome
18:05:43 <Robert> That's a VERY vague definition.
18:05:50 <kc5tja> futhin: I seem to be text-book for Asperger's Syndrome.
18:05:51 <Robert> And I don't think I have any autistics in my family.
18:06:04 <futhin> neither do the technically oriented people
18:06:07 <Robert> I think I'll ask wikipedia.
18:06:12 * solar_angel has full-blown high-function autism.
18:06:30 <slava> for that matter what is autism exactly
18:06:31 <Robert> And you seem to be enjoying it.
18:06:44 <solar_angel> Robert - who seems to be enjoying what?
18:07:31 <Robert> solar_angel: You, and the abilities you say the "disease" has brought with it.
18:07:46 <futhin> Dr. Asperger identified a number of children (mostly boys) with a cluster of traits that included egocentricity, difficulties with social interaction, clumsiness (including problems with both fine and gross motor control), and pronounced language peculiarities.
18:07:49 <solar_angel> "disease", huh?  gee, you obviously haven't done your research
18:08:11 <solar_angel> damn superioristic neurotypicals thinking that anything outside their limited "normal" range is a disease anyway.
18:08:28 * solar_angel decides that she'll shut up now before she either offends someone.
18:08:34 <Robert> solar_angel: Er, what do you mean?
18:08:38 <solar_angel> (or...  i won't go there)
18:08:47 <Robert> solar_angel: Seriously, I think either I misunderstood you or the other way round
18:08:56 <solar_angel> Robert - basically, the stigma associated with autism is mostly the result of ham-handed neurotypicals trying to "cure" us.
18:09:14 <solar_angel> complaining because we can't function in the bright, noisy, obnoxious, heavily social world that they construct
18:09:41 <futhin> http://nd.essortment.com/whatisasperger_rhcv.htm
18:09:41 <Robert> solar_angel: Have a guess on why I put those quotation marks there
18:10:14 <solar_angel> i know someone who couldn't speak for *TWENTY YEARS* because of the way they were treated...  but eventually, left alone to cope, she learned to read, then learned to code, and within 5 years began persuing a degree in math.
18:10:21 <futhin> solar_angel: offend everyone here, i do the same, the only people who won't be offended here is you, me, and kc5tja and maybe a few others?
18:10:43 <kc5tja> futhin: I can be offended, but it takes a lot.
18:10:50 <futhin> kc5tja: i know :)
18:11:09 <solar_angel> futhin - i like you already.  you're just cranky, ornery, and blunt enough for my taste :)
18:11:25 <futhin> :)
18:11:32 <futhin> you've found the cranky, ornery, and blunt channel
18:11:40 <Robert> solar_angel: Are you a fanatic capitalist, too?
18:11:41 <kc5tja> Just don't go overboard.
18:11:44 <kc5tja> My patience is not infinite.
18:11:47 <solar_angel> Robert - capitalist?
18:11:48 <futhin> altho not everyone is cranky, ornery, and blunt so sometimes its like shooting down innocent bystanders
18:11:50 <Robert> kc5tja: We know. :)
18:12:10 <futhin> er, everyone in the channel i mean
18:12:12 <Robert> kc5tja: But on the other hand, you're usually pretty patient when it comes to explain things.
18:12:20 <kc5tja> Yeah.
18:12:25 <solar_angel> Robert - money means very little to me...  i only persue it because i'm broke.
18:12:33 <solar_angel> if i had enough to persue my inventions, i wouldn't care about it.
18:12:45 <Robert> solar_angel: As in, believer in that the capitalist system is a blessing.
18:12:55 <Robert> solar_angel: I'll take that as a no, then
18:12:58 <solar_angel> Robert - the capitalist system was alright pre-corporatism.
18:13:00 <kc5tja> I persue money because it is the enabling technology that lets me *really* achieve my goals.
18:13:06 <kc5tja> Money in and of itself is not a goal.
18:13:09 <solar_angel> capitalism is dead now, though.
18:13:27 <Robert> Depends on how you define it
18:13:28 <futhin> solar_angel: yeah robert is making a reference to my captalistic leanings.  i agree with a lot of Ayn Rand's philosophy, her basic philosophy is "capitalism is the only moral alternative" because she's big on coercion = immoral
18:13:47 <solar_angel> futhin - oh.
18:14:00 <kc5tja> Capitalism isn't dead, but that's the problem -- it's not alive either.
18:14:11 <futhin> solar_angel: plus i see businesses as platforms to launch all the ideas/inventions i'd like to
18:14:28 <solar_angel> well, i see the best thing as being half-way between capitalism and socialism...  don't tax the living, tax the dead and use it to provide basic income to the living...  and abandon this corporation as people concept, it's inane.
18:14:46 <slava> capitalism doesn't worry me all that much.
18:15:00 <slava> what worries me is that ignorant arseholes end up in govt *way* too often.
18:15:37 <futhin> only reason why capitalism gets a bad name is because people think coercion and theft is part of capitalism, i.e. where the "greedy corporate pig" rips you off and kills your mother
18:15:45 <Robert> solar_angel: The dead, being?
18:15:53 <solar_angel> Robert - inheritance tax.
18:15:58 <Robert> Ah.
18:15:59 <futhin> the "greedy corporate pig" is actually being protected by the government in the first place
18:16:31 <solar_angel> Robert - without corporations as people, when someone like gates dies, his company dies with him, and the resources are reapportioned by the government, allowing a new generation of startups.
18:16:40 <futhin> if the government wasn't interfering like that capitalism can't happen
18:17:07 <futhin> solar_angel: do you like to read?
18:17:11 <Robert> You mean you want government interferecne?
18:17:27 <futhin> no i'm anti government interference
18:17:30 <solar_angel> futhin - i read quite a bit.
18:17:31 <Robert> 03:16:43 <@futhin> if the government wasn't interfering like that capitalism can't happen
18:17:31 <kc5tja> solar_angel: Tax the dead?  You'd get, oh, $0 from said taxes.  They earn no income, nor make any sales.
18:17:49 <solar_angel> kc5tja - i wish you'd read my words and not your misconceptions.
18:17:58 <solar_angel> (i'm going to bind that retort to a hotkey, i use it enough)
18:18:03 <solar_angel> kc5tja - i said *INHERITANCE TAX*
18:18:19 <kc5tja> solar_angel: Once more: my patience is not infinite.
18:18:27 <futhin> robert: s/wasn't/is
18:18:28 <solar_angel> kc5tja - good :)
18:18:33 <kc5tja> solar_angel: I made a mistake.  OK?  Back off.  Or leave.
18:18:35 <kc5tja> forcefully.
18:18:40 <Robert> futhin: OK, then I get you
18:18:43 * solar_angel shrugs.
18:19:14 * solar_angel thinks it's time for her to go do something productive.
18:19:16 <kc5tja> Shrug if you want.  I'm chan-op here.  You'll be civil, autistic or not.
18:19:31 <futhin> solar_angel: may i recommend "The Fountainhead" and after that "Atlas Shrugged"  two books by Ayn Rand in the off chance that you might read them
18:19:58 <solar_angel> kc5tja - i'm being civil enough that banning me would be an abuse of power.  don't threaten me.
18:20:02 <futhin> robert: english language doesn't always adhere to boolean logic
18:20:15 <futhin> "if you ain't a cowboy, you ain't shit"
18:20:32 <kc5tja> solar_angel: No.  Sorry, but violent retorts like the above are totally uncivil.  It's childish.  And I have no patience for such things.
18:20:32 <solar_angel> futhin - hrm....  i've heard "Atlas Shrugged" was worth a read.
18:20:33 <futhin> if you look at that from a logic perspective, you'll see the incongruity
18:20:34 <Robert> futhin: That's a very unforthish thing to say
18:20:58 * solar_angel rolls her eyes.
18:21:02 <futhin> robert: we're talking about the english language here :)
18:21:44 <kc5tja> futhin: Have you read Dr. Peikoff's Ominous Parallels?
18:22:01 <solar_angel> futhin - have you ever read up on lojban?  it's a natural language that's just forth-ey enough to be interesting.
18:22:03 <futhin> kc5tja: hmm, wasn't aware of that book.  did you read it?
18:22:16 <futhin> solar_angel: yeah i've looked it over, haven't gotten around to learning it or anything
18:22:25 --- join: blockhead (default@dialin-193-tnt.nyc.bestweb.net) joined #forth
18:22:26 <kc5tja> futhin: yes.  Scary stuff.  Everything he predicted when he wrote the book is coming true.  Everything.
18:22:30 <kc5tja> Very scary.
18:22:40 <kc5tja> And we all know that Bush is a fascist in the literal sense of the term.
18:22:42 <Robert> Hm.
18:22:43 <futhin> actually i'm hoping they scrap it and come out with lojban v.2 after the language freeze is lifted in 2005
18:23:01 <futhin> i.e. that they actually use what they learned to come out with a new improved lojban
18:23:08 <solar_angel> futhin - granted, there are a few things in there that are bollocksed.  it's still better than english though :P
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18:23:29 <futhin> kc5tja: cool. is it a big book? i should check that out..
18:23:39 <kc5tja> It's fairly sizable, yes.
18:23:57 <kc5tja> It's also kind of boring a read in certain parts.  He tends to ramble on.
18:24:07 <Robert> "Particularly common interests are means of transportation (for example trains) and computers. In general, things with order have appeal." <-- I know a local guy who's REALLY obsessed with buses, and who can't understand when others are poking fun of him because of that...
18:24:22 <Robert> That quote is from the wikipedia entry of Asperger's.
18:24:36 <futhin> kc5tja: i read part of "Objectivism: Ayn Rand's philosophy" by leonard peikoff but only managed to read 4 or 5 chapters..  out of like 30.. its really in depth, basically it builds the philosophy step by step from the first premises to a full blown philosophy
18:24:44 <futhin> using logic
18:24:56 <kc5tja> Robert: Hey, I love Wankel rotary engines, and gas turbine engines.  I have an infatuation with computers (including making my own) . . . see, I told you -- textbook case.
18:24:56 <solar_angel> Robert - my ex was an urban planner, specializing in transportation...  she taught me a lot about it, and found it surprising that i was so interested/picked it up so well...
18:25:03 <Robert> futhin: That sounds dangerous.
18:25:09 <futhin> i don't necessarily agree with all of Objectivism but i'd like to see it being developed in the same way math is developed
18:25:16 <futhin> with rigorous logic, proofs, etc
18:25:18 <solar_angel> she could name the brand and make of any bus she saw....  and i'm almost as bad now because of it :P
18:25:20 <futhin> needs to be more accessible..
18:25:36 <kc5tja> futhin: Yeah, OP builds his argument step by step too.  He's a really good writer.
18:25:38 <solar_angel> kc5tja - try the Tesla Turbine.  it's really cool if you like alternative engines.
18:25:40 <Robert> solar_angel: Not that I see how public transportation is orderd, lots of chaos.
18:25:53 <kc5tja> solar_angel: Beat you to it.  :)  I made a few in paper already.  Those things *ROCK*.
18:25:56 <futhin> i'm definitely attracted to cars in a way
18:26:01 <solar_angel> kc5tja - coolness :)
18:26:07 <kc5tja> I made one that had 500mW of power on breath alone.  I was jazzed about it.  :D
18:26:09 <futhin> especially drifting ;)
18:26:25 <solar_angel> 500mW, out of paper, on breath?
18:26:30 <kc5tja> Yep.
18:26:34 <solar_angel> what was the internal resistance like?
18:26:37 <warpzero> kc5tja: I have come to the point that requires that I grok your NRMF
18:26:50 <kc5tja> well, "paper" meaning paper-board, like the stuff that TV dinners come in.
18:26:52 <solar_angel> nevermind, mW.
18:26:54 <solar_angel> :P
18:26:57 <solar_angel> *nods*
18:26:59 <solar_angel> coolness
18:27:01 <kc5tja> solar_angel: Not much -- it was on ball bearings.
18:27:01 <solar_angel> that sounds really neat.
18:27:08 <Robert> Slight difference between MW and mW 
18:27:14 <solar_angel> kc5tja - i read you wrong.
18:27:19 <kc5tja> Hehe :D
18:27:22 <solar_angel> i thought you said mA
18:27:24 <solar_angel> you said mW
18:27:33 <Robert> Hehe.
18:27:50 <Robert> Now half an A from your breath would be cool.
18:27:50 <kc5tja> Yeah.  It could go much faster, and pull lots more with a better air supply.  But, my lungs just can't do that.  :D
18:28:00 <kc5tja> That's actually what's gotten me into the idea of compressed air engines for vehicles.
18:28:18 <solar_angel> kc5tja - you heard of Tesla's original patents for an internal combustion version?
18:28:21 <kc5tja> I know they're woefully impractical from a safety stand-point, but for things like remote controlled cars or high-performance racing, . . .
18:28:22 <solar_angel> they're really quite neat.
18:28:39 <kc5tja> solar_angel: yeah, I read the 1921 patent on it.  Also his valvular conduit.
18:28:53 <solar_angel> when i eventually get a machine shop, i plan to build a methanol-powered one.
18:28:58 <solar_angel> i miss my workshop, i was *soooo* close.
18:28:59 <futhin> :D
18:30:25 <kc5tja> I don't agree with how he claims his engine operates though -- observed behavior contradicts it (e.g., as soon as the air pressure in the turbine exceeds the pressure in the combustion chamber, it'll blow air back into the chamber -- thus, an equilibrium is reached, and no internal vacuum can draw fuel/air in.  BUT, with proper external valving, you could get a pulse-jet effect, and use that, but I'm not sure what kind of power you'd get.  Forced in
18:30:59 <solar_angel> kc5tja - you were truncated at 'Forced in'.
18:30:59 <warpzero> you got cut off
18:31:03 <warpzero> "Forced in"
18:31:48 <kc5tja> Forced induction is definitely the way to go to get higher power densities out of it.
18:32:26 <kc5tja> I still want to make a go-kart powered by compressed air, stored in one of those empty propane tanks.
18:32:44 <kc5tja> I would love to put the Tesla turbine in one.
18:32:47 <solar_angel> just make sure it's empty.
18:32:57 <solar_angel> that sounds like a really cool project though
18:32:57 <kc5tja> I would also love to make a model, compressed air Wankel too.
18:33:21 <kc5tja> Yeah, I'd leave the valve open for at least a month or so before attempting to compress air into it.
18:33:22 <solar_angel> i'd like to mount a methanol tesla turbine in a robot, personally.
18:34:27 <kc5tja> I'm a fan of ethanol myself.  Maybe not as much energy density (I never compared the metrics on those two fuels), but it sure is easy to make yourself.
18:34:42 <solar_angel> methanol is probably every bit as easy to make yourself.
18:34:51 <kc5tja> It's also a lot more toxic.  :D
18:34:51 <futhin> this is what Real Forthers talk about ;)
18:34:56 <solar_angel> in fact, if i recall correctly, heating wood can do it.
18:35:06 <warpzero> aparently so futhin
18:35:06 <solar_angel> sure, it's more toxic, but i'm not planning to drink it.
18:35:19 <Robert> Or inhale, let your skin absorb, etc.
18:35:21 <kc5tja> Well, the vapor too.
18:35:30 <solar_angel> futhin - of course.  FORTH is a language with hardware roots.
18:35:33 --- quit: qFox ("this is mirc's last attempt of communication...")
18:35:39 <Robert> My nose hurt for a day when I got a drop of glass cleaning liquid on it.
18:35:40 <futhin> warpzero/robert: i'm an elitist bastard, death to elitism!
18:35:40 <solar_angel> kc5tja - true...  but that's not too hard to avoid.
18:35:43 <solar_angel> i used to have a fume hood at one time.
18:35:58 <Robert> futhin: What have you coded in Forth?=
18:36:33 <kc5tja> We actually had someone come in to In-N-Out yesterday and ask for used cooking oil to refuel his car with.
18:36:41 <futhin> robert: nothing, i'm a non-non-programmer.  not a programmer and not a non-programmer.  i'm perfectly content to be so, and it doesn't exactly interfere with my grokking of forth
18:37:07 <futhin> robert: believe it or not i've got other interests that take a priority over coding in forth
18:37:26 <futhin> kc5tja: heh, what was the response :)
18:37:58 <kc5tja> We called the central office, they gave the OK, and the manager went outside to pump out the used oil.
18:38:25 <kc5tja> It's funny -- while I was on fries today, I was thinking, "Hey, I'm cooking someone's food in MOTOR FUEL."  :)
18:39:09 <kc5tja> brb
18:39:17 <futhin> lol
18:39:39 <Robert> futhin: That sounds like a lot of bullshit to me.
18:41:27 <warpzero> so uh hey kc5tja
18:41:27 <kc5tja> back
18:41:50 <kc5tja> solar_angel: Another possibility too is to gasify bio-waste.
18:41:55 <warpzero> kc5tja: do you want to help me out with this NRMF stuff?
18:41:58 <kc5tja> Things like grass clippings and the like.
18:42:10 <Robert> futhin: DSM-IV criteria of Asperger's doesn't match me.
18:42:15 <kc5tja> warpzero: What are you having problems with?
18:42:35 <warpzero> kc5tja: first uh i don't have darcs :(
18:43:12 <solar_angel> woo, figured out the easy way to do this NAMESPACE thingie.
18:43:23 <warpzero> kc5tja: there we go i got it
18:43:24 <kc5tja> warpzero: OK, let me send you a .tar.gz file then.
18:43:30 <warpzero> kc5tja: i got it i got it
18:43:35 <kc5tja> OK.
18:43:38 <warpzero> darcs wasn't wanting to compiel
18:44:18 <warpzero> kc5tja: now how do I use this thing?
18:44:30 <kc5tja> This thing == ??
18:44:32 <futhin> -----spam warning----
18:44:32 <kc5tja> darcs or NRMF?
18:44:37 <futhin> 1. Severe impairment in reciprocal social interaction
18:44:37 <futhin> (a) inability to interact with peers
18:44:37 <futhin> (b) lack of desire to interact with peers
18:44:37 <futhin> (c) lack of appreciation of social cues
18:44:37 <futhin> (d) socially and emotionally inappropriate behavior
18:44:37 <warpzero> NRMF
18:44:39 <futhin> 2. All-absorbing narrow interest
18:44:42 <futhin> (a) exclusion of other activities
18:44:44 <futhin> (b) repetitive adherence
18:44:47 <futhin> 3. Imposition of routines and interests
18:44:49 <futhin> (a) on self, in aspects of life
18:44:52 <futhin> (b) on others
18:44:55 <futhin> 4. Speech and language problems
18:44:57 <futhin> (b) superficially perfect expressive language
18:45:00 <futhin> (c) formal, pedantic language
18:45:02 <futhin> (e) impairment of comprehension including misinterpretations of literal/implied meanings
18:45:05 <futhin> 5. Non-verbal communication problems
18:45:08 <futhin> (a) limited use of gestures
18:45:10 <futhin> (b) clumsy/gauche body language
18:45:13 <futhin> (c) limited facial expression
18:45:15 <futhin> 6. Motor clumsiness: poor performance on neurodevelopmental examination 
18:45:37 <warpzero> kc5tja: I just make Rules.mak files?
18:45:39 <kc5tja> futhin: So far, I match *every* criteria.
18:45:44 <kc5tja> warpzero: Yep.
18:45:57 <Robert> futhin: I can read for myself. Even without you PASTING THE WHOLE THING IN #FORTH.
18:46:09 <warpzero> kc5tja: Is there any capacity to have make make these?
18:46:12 <Robert> Hm
18:46:18 <kc5tja> warpzero: The logic behind everything is all in the Makefiles; the Rules.mak files are included via the Makefiles.
18:46:30 <kc5tja> warpzero: Yes, there is.  Billy supposedly got it to work, but then told me to "hold on, he found a bug."
18:46:35 <Robert> futhin: Sorry for that, thought you were repeating the thing I read
18:46:37 <kc5tja> I'll e-mail him and ask him what the status of that is.
18:46:47 <warpzero> kc5tja: what's his e-mail?
18:46:53 <futhin> robert: i could've given ya the url, but this way everyone saw it :P
18:47:07 <Robert> futhin: OK, I might match some of that, but those are very vague.
18:47:31 <Robert> And using a good language is NO DISEASE.
18:47:40 <Robert> No matter what the men in white coats say
18:48:11 <Robert> Interesting though, that a psychological condition has anything to do with clumsiness.
18:48:15 * solar_angel looks quizically at Robert.
18:48:18 <Robert> Any ides why?
18:48:21 <Robert> solar_angel: Er, what?
18:48:24 <Robert> ideas*
18:48:27 <solar_angel> Robert - autism isn't psychological, it's neurological.
18:48:46 <Robert> solar_angel: Oh, OK.
18:48:51 <Robert> solar_angel: See, I know too little.
18:48:59 <solar_angel> Robert - that's alright.  we all start somewhere.
18:49:15 <Robert> I haven't (yet) done any reading on this.
18:49:15 <warpzero> kc5tja: can I query you?
18:49:20 <solar_angel> and the textbook definitions are vague for a few reasons.
18:49:21 <kc5tja> warpzero: Sure.
18:49:34 <solar_angel> mostly that a lot of the so-called 'experts' really have no idea how it really works.
18:49:42 <Robert> But now I'm on wikipedia, so I doubt I'll ever stop
18:49:49 <Robert> How unusual
18:50:15 <futhin> robert: http://nd.essortment.com/whatisasperger_rhcv.htm  is where i'm at
18:50:36 <futhin> i don't think all of the ones match me so i got minor asperger's heh
18:51:10 <futhin> you prolly don't have full blown asperger's either..
18:51:31 <futhin> i really find it fascinating that there's a huge amount of autistic children in silicon valley
18:51:39 <futhin> even Wired wrote about it
18:52:09 <futhin> all these techie people mating and producing autistic offspring
18:52:15 <Robert> futhin: OK, those criteras are pretty vague
18:52:16 <solar_angel> futhin - it happens.
18:52:31 <Robert> btw
18:52:36 <Robert> There were two things there
18:52:41 <Robert> The DSM and another.
18:53:19 <futhin> robert: i agree its vague, it's like the whole "ADD" thing
18:53:35 <futhin> hard to tell if its real or its just bullshit created by overpaid psychologists
18:53:36 <Robert> I said the DSM-IV was vague, and then you said "this one?" and pasted a 20 line text NOT being the DSM-IV criterias.
18:54:02 <Robert> Overpaid or just trying to be nice.
18:54:06 <futhin> robert: url for dsm-iv?
18:54:17 <Robert> futhin: The one you pasted.
18:55:20 <Robert> OK, the DSM-IV seems to be more vague, but Gillberg's criterias are so general..
18:55:35 <futhin> perhaps we can redefine the definition of "Nerd" to include the asperger/autistic people :P
18:56:04 <futhin> wow
18:56:08 <solar_angel> futhin - well, aspergers is the milder of the two.
18:56:12 <Robert> Some nerds don't know that they're not nerds for real
18:56:16 <futhin> my spam stopped all the engine talk
18:56:22 <solar_angel> hehehe
18:56:32 <futhin> solar_angel: yeah i meant high functioning autistics
18:56:37 <solar_angel> actually, i just went off to do something productive instead of bickering.
18:56:38 <kc5tja> I think we said everything that needed to be said.
18:56:52 <futhin> but bickering is so productive...
18:57:12 <solar_angel> futhin - not especially... unless the product is to make me hurry up with my robots of mass destruction.
18:57:22 <Robert> I like saving power instead. Been playing with my new crystal earphone and low-power amplifiers.
18:57:44 <futhin> that reminds me
18:57:45 <solar_angel> Robert - that sounds cool
18:57:53 <Robert> So even a single, small solar cell under low-light conditions can load a capacitor (470uF, lasts for minutes) that runs this thing
18:58:02 <futhin> i'd like a low power computer so i can become a mountain man!
18:58:06 <Robert> Yes
18:58:08 <futhin> :P
18:58:10 <Robert> I like that too.
18:58:13 <solar_angel> heh.
18:58:19 <futhin> i'd grow a beard
18:58:22 <futhin> and put twigs in my hair
18:58:25 <kc5tja> Robert: NICE!
18:58:25 <futhin> >:D
18:58:27 <Robert> If there only was some way to do low-power I/O
18:58:29 <Robert> Hmm
18:58:30 <solar_angel> Robert - that actually does sound cool...  i'm not sure if it's that scalable to anything but radios.
18:58:47 <Robert> You know.. morse code via xtal earpiece out - that's only a few microwatts.
18:59:08 <Robert> Input - morse key. Barely any power at all. Then a downclocked chip
18:59:30 <Robert> That should be able to run on 1.6V and maybe a few uA.
19:00:03 <solar_angel> hrm...  i suppose microchip's "nanowatt" PIC's could come in handy.
19:00:25 <Robert> I used to downclock 12f675s to 32kHz
19:00:56 <Robert> Runs on about 5uA in active mode. if I put it to sleep between the turns I could probably get that down to nanowatts.
19:01:10 <Robert> Or were you refering to some new line which requires nanowatts in active mode?
19:01:35 <Robert> Because now I have a big bag of 32kHz crystals.
19:01:43 <solar_angel> some new line that goes down to rediculously low power when you downclock them.
19:01:54 <solar_angel> they even have built-in clocks
19:02:10 <Robert> For slow speeds too? Not the usual 4MHz crap
19:02:16 <Robert> Available in DIP? Free samples?
19:02:39 <solar_angel> yep :)
19:02:44 <solar_angel> all of the above.
19:02:53 <Robert> Nice! What are they called?
19:02:56 <solar_angel> i think the 16F819 was one of them...
19:02:59 <solar_angel> i could be wrong, but i don't think i'm wrong.
19:03:08 <Robert> I'll have a look.
19:03:11 <solar_angel> cool
19:03:33 <Robert> On the other hand, if the I/O requires much more than the chip itself, what's the use?
19:03:48 <solar_angel> no idea.
19:03:51 <Robert> And you can always go into sleep mode once you're done
19:04:09 <solar_angel> these sleep at much lower currents though
19:04:18 <solar_angel> and they're not any more expensive.
19:04:24 <solar_angel> they're worth it :)
19:04:33 <Robert> I've seen about 1 nA quoted for the new 12f series
19:04:50 <solar_angel> hrm, i don't recall the 12F being part of the nW series though.
19:05:08 <Robert> And that's as close to noting that you can get. You still need to provide a proper voltage
19:05:50 <Robert> Which I don't really like. I could drive this low-voltage & low-power amplifier with the incoming radio waves from the antenna
19:05:58 <Robert> Rectify and load the capacitor with it
19:06:09 <Robert> A transformer, with Everything being the primary side.
19:06:45 <Robert> Maybe if I transform that voltage up - less current but higher voltage could do with extremely low-current applications.
19:06:54 <solar_angel> just use an inductive tank to boost the voltage, and use a shottkey/cap combo to capture the result.
19:07:01 <solar_angel> errr, an RL tank, sorry
19:07:04 <solar_angel> errr, LC tank
19:07:09 <solar_angel> damn, i'm having a bad day :P
19:07:23 <Robert> LC tank? You mean I should concentrate on one frequency alone?
19:07:49 <Robert> That would be 50Hz hum. And such an LC tank would become lossy I think.
19:07:57 <solar_angel> ick, 50Hz?
19:08:00 <Robert> Better use an untuned transformer. 
19:08:10 <solar_angel> the thing about an LC tank is that you can get *large* voltage multiplication with very low loss.
19:08:18 <kc5tja>  solar_angel I think he's trying to suck wall power wirelessly.  :)
19:08:21 <solar_angel> even with the diode/cap sucking off it.
19:08:26 <solar_angel> kc5tja - apparently.
19:08:33 <Robert> Yes.
19:08:34 * kc5tja has considered experimenting with such things too.
19:08:40 <kc5tja> I just nevre got around to it.
19:08:47 <Robert> solar_angel: What kind of circuit do you suggest then?
19:09:11 <Robert> solar_angel: For sucking power out of nowhere and power a computer with it.
19:09:22 <solar_angel> Robert - an RL tank (hrm... i forget if it has to be parallel or series...  i'm feeling too pathetic to do the math at the moment)
19:09:44 <solar_angel> with a shottkey diode charge pumping into a bigass resevoir cap (make sure it has a bunch of lower ESR caps in parallel with it)
19:09:47 --- join: I440r_ (proxyuser@adsl-67-65-218-134.dsl.snantx.swbell.net) joined #forth
19:09:58 <solar_angel> hiya I440 :)
19:10:03 <I440r_> hi :)
19:10:31 <Robert> solar_angel: A bigass cap is hardly needed for currents of less than a uA, is it?
19:10:41 <I440r_> so how do you like the lazy bum idlers i hhere ??? :)
19:10:54 <solar_angel> Robert - the point is to supply your digital circuits with smooth power.
19:11:09 <solar_angel> the bigass cap isn't strictly necessary, but once charged, it should *stay* charged.
19:11:18 <solar_angel> just don't fall for evil things like tantalum, leakage current is *not* your friend.
19:11:27 <Robert> solar_angel: But it could take forever to load it
19:11:34 <solar_angel> I440r_ - better than the mean ones :P
19:11:44 <Robert> solar_angel: As long as it stays over 1.6V I'm not going to complain-
19:11:45 <I440r_> are there any mean bums in here ??? :)
19:11:48 <solar_angel> Robert - "forever" is relative.  don't take the antenna away.  charge it at the factory.  whatever.
19:12:03 <solar_angel> I440r - dunno...  not exactly.  not going to get anyone in trouble :P
19:12:12 <I440r_> ok :)
19:12:26 <solar_angel> Robert - anyway...  the point is, once charged, it should *stay* charged, pretty much indefinately.
19:12:44 <Robert> solar_angel: What kinds have that low leakage current?
19:12:51 <futhin> completely off topic.. http://www.smlinks.com/sotw/why/
19:12:59 <futhin> for laughs
19:13:26 <solar_angel> Robert - hrm...  most caps other than tantalum should be reasonable with leakage...
19:13:30 <Robert> solar_angel: Besides, if it has a steady supply (antenna that always has some AC in it), the capacitor doesn't have to store very much energy.
19:13:54 <Robert> solar_angel: OK, I'm getting these 2.2uF ceramic ones. Think they'll do? Of course I have a bunch of electrolyts too...
19:13:58 <solar_angel> Robert - sure...  but you're never quite sure what kind of spike current will happen on a transition...  and this way, you can drive reactive devices at a pretty fair current.
19:14:19 <solar_angel> Robert - that should work, yes.  toss in a 470uF elect for fun though.
19:15:09 <Robert> solar_angel: Hm. That's what I've been using for my experiments. Have you ever experienced the feeling of a radio SLOWLY starting to work after you expose it to light?
19:15:35 <solar_angel> Robert - now that just sounds cool.
19:15:48 <Robert> Takes a minute to reach full voltage, even with direct sun light or a strong light bulb.
19:16:40 <I440r_> robert do you know how photo copiers work ?
19:16:52 <I440r_> the light discharges an electro static charge applied to the paper. that charge attracts the toner
19:17:07 <I440r_> could be theres a charge being discharged slowly in the light
19:17:24 <Robert> What?
19:17:43 <I440r_> your radio starting to work when exposed to light
19:17:54 <I440r_> the light might be discharging some sort of static charge somewhere
19:18:09 <Robert> Ah.
19:18:10 <Robert> No
19:18:14 <Robert> Much simplier explanation
19:18:21 <Robert> I connected a solar cell to it
19:18:43 <I440r_> lol
19:19:01 * solar_angel giggles.
19:19:05 <solar_angel> woot :P
19:19:10 <solar_angel> i used to have fun charging capacitors with static electricity.
19:19:10 <I440r_> cheat
19:19:23 <I440r_> heres me with a perfectly valid scientific explanation and you have to go and spoil it
19:19:30 <Robert> solar_angel: That does sound like fun. How?
19:19:31 * solar_angel giggles.
19:19:34 <Robert> I440r_: :D
19:20:06 <solar_angel> Robert - um...  well, connect wires to + and -.  then attach them to sides of the static potential, in such a way that it induces current flow through the cap
19:20:31 <solar_angel> it's probably a good idea to put a diode somewhere in the circuit, probably across the cap backwards, to protect the cap if it's electrolytic.
19:20:50 <Robert> Won't high voltages kind of ruin it?
19:21:12 * Robert looks at the pile of 20 dead MOSFETs on his computer
19:21:18 <Robert> Now they're toys.
19:21:36 <Robert> Life after death, so to speak
19:22:03 <solar_angel> lol
19:22:10 <Robert> I have these 3 kV 4.7 nF caps. Think they'll do?
19:22:13 <solar_angel> nope, the voltages won't hurt anything but mosfets
19:22:16 <Robert> What can you do with them anyway?
19:22:35 <solar_angel> unless your capacitors are really, really puny, you'll get a nice, managable, low voltage out of it.
19:22:36 <Robert> Just tiny discharges?
19:22:54 <Robert> Nice. Low voltage, as in?
19:22:57 <solar_angel> i'm not sure... i was a kid, playing in a big nylon tent with some electrolytics
19:23:02 <solar_angel> and noticing that they had a couple volts on them afterwards
19:23:55 <Robert> OK, doesn't sound as fun as what I expected (sparks)
19:24:19 <solar_angel> hehehe, no...  the fun one for that...
19:24:27 <solar_angel> is when you take a 47,000uF or bigger cap, charge it to 40V, and short it.
19:25:40 <Robert> I had a lot of fun with my kV transformer and a 100 uF cap.
19:25:52 <solar_angel> lol
19:25:54 <solar_angel> yikers.
19:25:57 <Robert> Aluminium foil can be fun!
19:26:01 <solar_angel> yes, but a kV at 100uF probably can't arc weld.
19:26:21 <Robert> Used to cut very very thin strings, put it between different materials, and then short the cap on it.
19:26:33 <Robert> After that I had very hard-to-remove lines. :)
19:26:55 <Robert> Actually that cap was just rated at 350V.
19:27:12 <Robert> With the kV transformer, I used 1kV AC to make nice light effects
19:27:31 <solar_angel> hehehehe, cute.
19:27:41 <Robert> You take some salt water on a plate, draw lines with the water, and then run current through them
19:28:10 <Robert> Then you see sparks, in different colors, and you hear the water scream.
19:28:24 <Robert> Because of the 10 kHz AC frequency
19:28:37 <Robert> Much fun, until the transformer melted.
19:28:51 <Robert> I need a better one.
19:29:04 <solar_angel> yikes.
19:29:09 <solar_angel> you need one that has current regulation
19:29:11 <solar_angel> a NST maybe?
19:29:49 <Robert> No, I need thicker insulation
19:29:59 <kc5tja> I would imagine that the salt water would dissociate under those conditions...
19:30:13 <solar_angel> kc5tja - ick...  talk about smelling bad.
19:30:29 <Robert> Current regulation is managed by the high output resistance, so I figure the voltage once a connection has been made drops significantly
19:30:30 <solar_angel> contrary to popular belief, salt water does *not* dissociate into nice, friendly hydrogen and oxygen.
19:30:36 <kc5tja> solar_angel: Well, no real odor, but don't have any sparks in the area -- *BOOM!*.  :D
19:30:50 <solar_angel> kc5tja - no...  that's unfortunately wrong
19:31:02 <solar_angel> if you run a current through salt water, you'll quickly get hydrogen gas and CHLORINE gas.
19:31:06 <Robert> solar_angel: Not if you're using carbon electrodes. Ask my nose, I once made it inhale that.
19:31:06 <solar_angel> don't try this at home, kids.
19:31:24 <Robert> solar_angel: Use a metal electrode and you won't get chlorine.
19:31:25 <solar_angel> no, carbon electrodes still produce chlorine.
19:31:33 <Robert> That's what I mean
19:31:36 <Robert> Carbon ones do.
19:31:44 <solar_angel> Robert - depends which metal...
19:31:46 <kc5tja> solar_angel: I did try it once, and if there was Chlorine gas, it was very low concentration.  Then again, I didn't pump 10kV AC through it either.
19:31:47 <Robert> But not (non-noble) metals.
19:32:00 <Robert> kc5tja: Actually this was with a 5V supply.
19:32:08 <futhin> great, i'm gonna run out and make mustard gas!
19:32:12 <Robert> Which I melted, too.
19:32:17 <solar_angel> kc5tja - use an acid like H2SO4 instead of salt.  it's safer.
19:32:18 <Robert> futhin: Enjoy
19:32:32 <Robert> Salt is easier to get. :)
19:32:46 <Robert> I need some copper oxide.
19:32:48 <solar_angel> Robert - yes...  but "dry acid" is easy to get too...
19:32:57 <Robert> "dry acid"?
19:32:58 <solar_angel> Robert - why do you want copper oxide?
19:33:06 <solar_angel> i've got a surplus of copper hydroxide around...
19:33:06 <kc5tja> solar_angel: Well, yeah.  But salt is all I have available.  :D  Actually, I do notice that electrode corrosion was pretty nasty when using salt water, and DC current,  Not sure if sulfuric acid would be better in that regard.
19:33:13 <Robert> solar_angel: I read a recepie for home-made diodes using that.
19:33:15 <futhin> solar_angel: where do you live?
19:33:27 <solar_angel> futhin - canada.
19:33:31 <futhin> cool, me too
19:33:41 <kc5tja> One thing I've always wanted to try was this:
19:33:42 <futhin> kamloops, bc
19:33:44 <Robert> solar_angel: Why do you have copper hydroxide?
19:33:57 <solar_angel> Robert - because i etch circuit boards with my own etchant chemistry.
19:34:03 <Robert> OK.
19:34:05 <kc5tja> 1.  Take a glass full of salt water, and place it between two electrified plates.  In theory this will separate the positive and negative ions in the water.
19:34:25 <kc5tja> 2.  Take two electrodes and insert them in opposite sides of the glass.  Pass current through it both ways, and measure the effects.
19:34:32 <kc5tja> My hypothesis is that it'd behave like a diode.
19:34:42 <solar_angel> kc5tja - yes...  but the most negative ion is not oxygen at all, but chlorine.  unpleasant, that.
19:34:49 <solar_angel> hrm...  you know, you're not wrong.
19:34:57 <solar_angel> it wouldn't be a very good diode, but you're not wrong.
19:35:16 <kc5tja> solar_angel: Oh, I don't care how good it is.  I just want to measure the effect and verify it.  That alone will make me quite happy.  :)
19:35:31 <kc5tja> It'd make a great science fair project idea for kids.
19:35:54 <Robert> Will they stay seperated?
19:36:00 <Robert> separated*
19:36:08 <Robert> More than a few nanoseconds, that is.
19:36:14 <kc5tja> Robert: They should, as long as the E-field persists between those plates.
19:36:44 <solar_angel> kc5tja - i'd strongly suggest something like vinegar instead of salt.  much safer.
19:36:53 <Robert> Ah, you still keep those first plates there? I think I misread you.
19:37:07 <solar_angel> instead of leaving chlorine gas and sodium hydroxide (a nasty poison gas and a corrosive liquid)
19:37:08 <kc5tja> Vinegar doesn't dissolve in water.
19:37:21 <solar_angel> kc5tja - come again?
19:37:29 <solar_angel> acetic acid is quite miscible in water.
19:37:35 <kc5tja> Oh wait, sorry.
19:37:45 <kc5tja> I was thinking oil -- as in vinegar and oil.
19:37:48 <kc5tja> Sorry.
19:38:38 <solar_angel> *smiles*
19:38:44 <solar_angel> vinegar shouldn't dissociate the same way...
19:38:56 <solar_angel> the acetate ion doesn't turn into a gas, for one thing
19:39:12 <kc5tja> Right.
19:39:15 <solar_angel> technically, sulphuric acid is the most common one used in this reaction, in a small concentration.
19:39:34 <solar_angel> and actually, you can usually get it as an aquarium additive in low concentrations
19:39:42 <solar_angel> you only need a small amount to get it going
19:40:18 <Robert> Sounds pretty nice. Do you have any favourite uses of hydrogen?
19:40:29 <solar_angel> hehehe
19:40:40 <solar_angel> Robert - preferrably, not mixing it with chlorine gas in a sunny room.
19:40:59 <kc5tja> Heheh :D
19:41:35 <Robert> solar_angel: Sounds like a good idea, you know. I should try it.
19:41:35 <kc5tja> Robert: My favorite application for Hydrogen is to watch it burn.
19:41:44 <Robert> kc5tja: Hehe, OK :)
19:41:47 <kc5tja> The flame produces the most goreous shade of red/pink that I've ever seen.
19:41:50 <solar_angel> Robert - what sounds like a good idea?
19:42:07 <Robert> solar_angel: Not mixing chlorine and hydrogen in sunshine.
19:42:16 <kc5tja> That being said, if I *could* produce H2 in sufficient quantities, powering a TT with it would be nice.  :D
19:42:18 <solar_angel> Robert - hehehe.
19:42:34 <solar_angel> Robert - yep...  because violating that advice is a way of getting a nice, corrosive explosion.
19:42:49 <Robert> solar_angel: Hey, a little HCl never harmed anyone! 
19:43:08 <solar_angel> Robert - true... i use HCl pretty casually.
19:43:13 <Robert> I'd like to make something that can launch projectiles using a hydrogenpowered cannon.
19:43:27 <kc5tja> Robert: H2-spud gun!
19:43:34 <Robert> Tasty.
19:43:38 <kc5tja> The environmentally friendly way to lauch starch!
19:44:14 <Robert> I mean.. I should make a transmitter that can stand a little acceleration
19:44:17 <Robert> And then launch it.
19:44:20 <solar_angel> *lol*
19:44:21 <solar_angel> Robert - now that's cool.
19:44:30 <solar_angel> Robert - like model rocketry telemetry things?
19:44:36 <Robert> Right.
19:44:41 <kc5tja> Hey, here you go -- use potato mash to distill ethanol, and use said ethanol to cause said spud, from same crop, to leave the muzzle with great velocity.  :D
19:44:59 <Robert> Although I have a feeling it'd just be transmitting sm0ysr a few times, until it dies.
19:45:49 <Robert> I think a rocket is a bit hard to do - but telemetry from a homemade balloon would be nice.
19:46:09 <solar_angel> actually, 
19:46:21 <solar_angel> rockets aren't all that hard at all...  they come in kit form these days :P
19:46:29 <Robert> solar_angel: Cheating
19:46:32 <solar_angel> i had a friend who had a telemetry computer for rocketry.
19:46:45 <kc5tja> Slightly off-topic, I remember seeing a HPV hovercraft not too long ago.
19:46:47 <Robert> solar_angel: And I don't know if I want to bother with that.
19:46:49 <solar_angel> Robert - true...  i stopped playing with explosives nearly a decade ago though.
19:46:56 * kc5tja would like to make a HPV hovercraft using Tesla blowers for the fans.
19:47:08 <Robert> solar_angel: I don't feels safe with them.
19:47:17 <solar_angel> Robert - with what?  explosives?
19:47:28 <Robert> solar_angel: That's why I think a balloon would be better - more economic and stays up longer.
19:47:31 <Robert> solar_angel: Yes
19:47:48 <Robert> kc5tja: What does HPV stand for?
19:47:54 <solar_angel> Robert - well...  you have to know your explosives.  avoid high explosives, they're dangerous.
19:47:56 <kc5tja> Robert: Human Powered Vehicle.
19:48:00 <solar_angel> but low explosives are pretty safe.
19:48:41 <Robert> solar_angel: Yes. People around here have the bad habit to use ATCP carelessly.
19:48:54 <kc5tja> ATCP?
19:48:56 <Robert> solar_angel: Like one guy, who kept half a kg under his bed.
19:49:01 <solar_angel> peachy.
19:49:19 <Robert> solar_angel: Or another one, who kept more than that in his school locker. A BIG, METAL BOX.
19:49:33 <solar_angel> Robert - *scary*
19:49:39 <Robert> kc5tja: Ammoniumtricycloperoxide or something like that.
19:49:46 <Robert> solar_angel should know.
19:50:08 <solar_angel> actually, i'm not sure if i know ATCP...
19:50:16 <kc5tja> Well, the "peroxide" thing is all I needed to know.  That means it's oxygenated, and that, well, means "high octane" if you know what I mean.  :D
19:51:16 <Robert> kc5tja: The problem is that it's (1) HIGHLY explosive, static electricity as well as small physical shocks have been known to ignite it, (2) easy to make - HCl + H2O2 + Acetone.
19:51:17 <solar_angel> odd, i can't seem to google it either.
19:51:23 <kc5tja> That's why fuel alcohols have such high engine efficiencies, and don't knock, ping, or pre-detonate (piston, piston, rotary terminology, respectively).
19:51:34 <Robert> I know there's been other short forms used.
19:51:43 <Robert> Maybe ATCP is Swedish.
19:52:14 <Robert> I remember it's something like trycyclic acetone.
19:55:16 <solar_angel> acetone peroxide.
19:55:17 <solar_angel> nasty.
19:56:26 <Robert> Yes, and so is lack of sleep. Night
19:56:34 <kc5tja> Hehhe
19:56:38 <kc5tja> laters Robert
19:57:03 <Robert> Tomorrow that American gamer is going home..
19:57:21 <Robert> Who's been staying with us for two weeks, for some odd reason
19:57:30 <kc5tja> American gamer?
19:57:42 <Robert> Yes, some geek girl my brother invited.
19:58:00 <kc5tja> Oh, gamer as in LAN party gamer.
19:58:24 <Robert> Gamer as in "life centered around games" gamer.
19:58:44 <kc5tja> Hey, don't knock D&D!  D:
19:58:45 <kc5tja> :D even
20:04:19 <Robert> Sun is rising.. looks nice, but it means they'll get mad at me if I don't go to bed now
20:04:26 <Robert> So once again, good night. :)
20:23:35 --- quit: solar_angel ("*going to go*")
20:45:16 --- quit: I440r_ (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
20:57:46 <kc5tja> OK, I'm off to grab some kind of....no, never mind.  I'm ordering pizza.  It's party time!
21:26:22 --- join: wmg (~weldon@bgp02689673bgs.flrdav01.dc.comcast.net) joined #forth
21:29:42 <wmg> Is it better to make the data stack or return stack use the physical stack if you're writing a forth?
21:31:22 <wmg> (for those of us schlepping around with only one stack)
21:31:57 <futhin> kc5tja: b3w4r3 th3 c4rbz!
21:32:15 <futhin> wmg: what physical stack?
21:32:44 <futhin> there's no stack at the cpu level..
21:32:49 <kc5tja> futhin: Hehehe -- that's what a bike is for.
21:32:51 <futhin> assuming you're using x86
21:33:07 <wmg> futhin there's memory that has very fast instructions to push & pop from
21:33:07 <futhin> kc5tja: nah carbs hurt more than just the calorie intake
21:33:20 <kc5tja> wmg: I think it depends on what kind of code you'll be running.  Native code really likes to use the hardware stack for the return stack.  Otherwise, it's a wash, really.
21:33:44 <kc5tja> futhin: Nope.  Carbs are what you want if you're going to be riding a bike for any significant distance.
21:33:47 <kc5tja> Trust me.
21:33:56 <wmg> kc5tja: eh, it's a stupid experiment I started and now am addicted to; I'm trying to write a forth that never uses the C library except to start 
21:33:59 <kc5tja> I've gone plenty a day without carb intake when riding my bike, and I was hurting.  :)
21:34:20 <Herkamire> water
21:34:21 <kc5tja> wmg: :)  DOH!  That reminds me, I need to put my FTS/Forth Cross Compiler online.
21:34:25 <kc5tja> I'll do that tomorrow.
21:34:40 <kc5tja> That's also my goal, and my FTS/Forth cross compiler aims to do just that.
21:34:48 <wmg> and to ansewr whoever asked, I'm doing it on x86 and SPARC
21:34:54 <wmg> SPARC is a lot more suited to it
21:35:02 <wmg> s/ansewr/answer/g
21:39:49 <kc5tja> SPARC is a lot more suited to *everything* -- it's a RISC CPU.
21:39:49 <kc5tja> :)
21:40:20 <wmg> So are intel's chips, they just hide it from you :\
21:41:42 <kc5tja> Hey, if I can't access those 32 integer registers, then as far as I'm concerned, they don't exist.
21:41:59 <wmg> my thoughts exactly
21:42:11 <wmg> I did the SPARC version first and it spoiled me
21:42:24 <wmg> How the hell am I supposed to make a forth with this few registers?
21:42:39 <kc5tja> I mean, dude, *ALL* the coolest OSes have been released for CPUs *other* than x86.
21:42:50 <wmg> even windows nt had an alpha port
21:42:50 <kc5tja> wmg: Actually, it's quite doable.
21:43:04 <wmg> yeah I've been looking at some of the solutions
21:43:09 <wmg> resourceful, to say the least
21:44:17 <kc5tja> Yes, definitely.
21:44:32 <kc5tja> But logical.  A Forth execution engine really doesn't need very many registers.
21:44:32 <wmg> one of them even managed to save %eax as top of stack
21:44:43 <kc5tja> I always use EAX as the top of stack.
21:44:58 <wmg> well I wanted to keep pad & pictured output in a register
21:45:25 <wmg> I may have to give up on that
21:46:36 <slava> hi all
21:46:49 <wmg> hi slava
21:46:57 <slava> 'sup
21:47:32 <wmg> it turns out what I missed most from the C library was formatting integers for printing
21:48:19 <slava> thats easy to code
21:49:06 <wmg> eh
21:57:23 <Herkamire> wmg: sounds like fun
21:57:30 <slava> hi Herkamire
21:57:45 <slava> i still haven't decided how to do vocabularies
21:57:49 <Herkamire> wmg: I'm confused about the C library part though. sounds like you're using asm, but you said something about using the C library at the start?
21:58:15 <wmg> Herkamire: yes, I started it to see how much of a usable forth system I could make without making C library calls
21:58:38 <wmg> I mean obviously it uses the library since it's a process
21:58:44 <Herkamire> wmg: are you writing it in C or asm?
21:58:48 <wmg> asm
21:58:55 <wmg> gas on Linux, to be exact
21:58:55 <Herkamire> so why use the C library at all
21:58:57 <Herkamire> ?
21:59:11 <wmg> Herkamire lots of assembly programs do
21:59:25 <Herkamire> ok
21:59:33 <wmg> pushing the args and calling printf (or whatever) is easier than using the system call itself
22:00:35 <Herkamire> you can make a complete forth system without the C library.
22:00:38 <Herkamire> like isforth
22:00:46 <Herkamire> my forth doen't use the C library either.
22:00:55 <Herkamire> I don't even know how to link it in if I wanted to
22:00:57 <slava> C library is a bit fucked
22:01:00 <wmg> yeah, I'm pretty much there. I was just kvetching about lack of registers for the x86 version
22:01:14 <slava> Herkamire, ppc asm is sweet eh?
22:01:25 <Herkamire> :)
22:01:26 <slava> Herkamire, your forth is powerpc right?
22:01:32 <Herkamire> slava: correct
22:01:48 <slava> it runs in terminal emulator, or does it do framebuffer?
22:02:08 <Herkamire> terminal
22:02:15 <wmg> though mine's also not interactive, which I've found is a no-no in forth circles
22:02:16 <slava> next step: framebuffer :)
22:02:20 <slava> Herkamire, with turtle graphics :)
22:02:47 <Herkamire> I wrote some code that mmaps the framebuffer, but I never did anything with it. (and it's far to hard-coded (bit depth and screen dimentions) to be much use generally)
22:03:30 <Herkamire> wmg: what does it do then? take source files and spit out a binary?
22:03:58 <wmg> pretty much
22:04:07 <Herkamire> I do plan to make herkforth write to the frame buffer before I make it boot
22:04:08 <wmg> I mean you could make a binary that started an interactive session if you wanted
22:04:21 <Herkamire> :)
22:04:58 <wmg> though it would be slower since the compiler wouldn't strip the word names and would have to do the hash search for each word that's called
22:05:27 <Herkamire> I see
22:05:54 <Herkamire> my forth automatically starts up the editor
22:06:01 <wmg> I heard the original forths had the dictionary as a linked list?
22:06:38 <Herkamire> seems to me that was a popular method
22:07:04 <wmg> I guess with a small enough dictionary the performance would be better than a hash
22:07:36 <Herkamire> I don't know how much speed is a problem
22:07:38 <wmg> though I have all the ANSI words in addition to a word for every system call; it gets kind of big
22:08:04 <wmg> probably true
22:08:16 <Herkamire> I just have my dictionary in an array. just a big hunk of memory with some room to grow
22:09:11 <kc5tja> wmg: Non-interactive Forth compilers are "OK" as long as you clearly identify it as a "target compiler," it seems.
22:09:37 <kc5tja> wmg: FTS/Forth's cross compiler is just that -- written in GForth, it takes a MachineForth-like environment and produces an ELF executable for x86.
22:10:06 <wmg> kc5tja: yeah, that was my inspiration
22:10:28 <kc5tja> FTS/Forth's cross compiler was an inspiration for you?
22:10:30 <kc5tja> *blinks*
22:10:37 * kc5tja has never had that experience before.  :)  Cool!
22:10:39 <wmg> lol
22:10:55 <wmg> I never used it; I just read about it in comp.lang.forth
22:10:59 <wmg> it sounded neat
22:11:45 <kc5tja> wmg: I'll be putting it online tomorrow.
22:11:51 <kc5tja> I could do it now I suppose, but I'm being lazy.
22:12:22 <wmg> but, yeah, if I ever distributed it I would put big red letters on it saying "TARGETED NATIVE COMPILER NOT INTERACTIVE ENVIRONMENT"
22:12:51 <kc5tja> Hehe :D
22:13:05 * kc5tja is going to write the cache kernel for Dolphin using FTS/Forth's cross compiler.
22:13:30 <wmg> That might keep Rather off my back
22:13:33 <kc5tja> I'm going to re-implement FTS/Forth's cross compiler first though.  I think I've reached the logical end of the course of development with the current version.
22:13:37 <kc5tja> It's too complex for what it does.
22:14:01 <kc5tja> Oh bloody hell -- Kurt is back in #hamradio.  :(
22:14:24 <wmg> the "inspiration" came when I was reading about some Forth cross-compilers and realized Forth can be viewed as a macro assembler for a simple machine
22:14:37 <kc5tja> wmg: Yup.
22:14:50 <wmg> So the trick is to translate that simple machine into the target platform
22:15:06 <wmg> sort of like what C was supposed to be
22:15:16 <kc5tja> C wasn't so much that.
22:15:29 <wmg> no?
22:15:31 <kc5tja> C was just intended to be used as a portable assembler to port Unix from PDP-7 to the PDP-11.
22:15:37 <kc5tja> It kind of took off from there.  :)
22:15:41 <slava> kc5tja, what do you think of vocabularies in forth, what's a good way to set them up, etc? :)
22:15:45 <wmg> right so Kernighan could play that game
22:16:00 <slava> yea
22:16:14 <kc5tja> slava: My *personal* feeling is that vocabularies aren't needed.
22:16:24 <kc5tja> slava: So I won't set them up at all in FTS/Forth.
22:16:41 <slava> kc5tja, just one big namespace?
22:16:49 <kc5tja> slava: Just one *small* namespace.
22:16:55 <Herkamire> :)
22:17:04 <kc5tja> In FTS/Forth, applications are swapped in and out of the dictionary space on an as-needed basis.
22:17:18 <kc5tja> They are recompiled on-the-fly everytime they're brought into memory.
22:17:35 <slava> kc5tja, i see
22:17:59 <kc5tja> If I do need something approximating a vocabulary, I use a common word prefix notation.
22:18:19 <slava> kc5tja, i have a database that loads/saves code on the fly, and the *only* way to organize code is vocabularies; soon source files will only be used for bootstrapping
22:18:35 <kc5tja> FTS/Forth is limited to about 1024 words in the interpreter's "vocabulary," and 512 words in the compiler vocabulary.
22:18:37 <slava> well no vocabularies yet
22:18:46 <slava> i still haven't decided how to do it
22:18:54 <slava> why the limit?
22:19:06 <wmg> I keep one big namespace but you can have the compiler mask parts of it with pragmas
22:19:16 <kc5tja> I don't understand why you need vocabularies.  If sources are loaded OTF, wouldn't that overwrite whatever old words were in the dictionary?
22:19:17 <slava> wmg, that's interesting t oo
22:19:34 <slava> kc5tja, each word definition is a separate record in the database
22:19:41 <kc5tja> slava: Because scanning through arrays is easier to implement in Forth than walking trees or lists.
22:20:07 <slava> kc5tja, you don't have a hashing dictionary?
22:20:09 <wmg> kc5tja: as I understand the idea, I have a word foo that is used by the system but the user doesn't know it. He defines "foo" in one of his programs. Namespaces keep his from clobbering mine.
22:20:13 <kc5tja> Faster too, because the array fits in a cache line.
22:20:26 <kc5tja> slava: I don't need a hashing dictionary.
22:20:33 <slava> kc5tja, what about wmg's point?
22:21:01 <wmg> I mean, if you didn't know that much about forth would you know there is a word "word"?
22:21:05 <kc5tja> wmg: Namespaces wouldn't be needed anyway.  Consider the following code:
22:21:08 <wmg> or "#"?
22:21:12 <kc5tja> : foo ." Hello world!" cr ;
22:21:15 <kc5tja> : bar foo foo foo ;
22:21:16 <wmg> ok
22:21:20 <kc5tja> : foo ." Okie dokie!" cr ;
22:21:24 <kc5tja> bar
22:21:34 <kc5tja> Bar will print "Hello world!" three times.
22:21:42 <wmg> right binding is lexical
22:22:26 <slava> kc5tja, i have the same for compiled words
22:22:51 <slava> interpreted words go through a level of indirection
22:23:06 * kc5tja likes to keep things simple, simple, simple.
22:23:13 <wmg> Hmm... my system would inline the bar calls to foo anyways
22:23:26 <wmg> maybe I don't even need that masking...
22:24:19 <Herkamire> slava: once I store definitions seperately in a kind of db I would still need some way of grouping definitions into pages to be displayed by the editor
22:24:39 <slava> Herkamire, will you store comments?
22:24:48 <Herkamire> yes, at some point
22:25:01 <slava> Herkamire, at the moment my db does, but i might just change it so that each word has a description record in the db
22:25:03 <Herkamire> I plan eventually so you can link anything to anything
22:25:09 <slava> hyperlinks?
22:26:22 <Herkamire> sorta I guess
22:26:31 * kc5tja is sticking with 30-year old Forth techniques when dealing with the source.  Plain text, in blocks of 1024 characters.
22:26:55 <Herkamire> you know how in palm OS you can attach a little note to lots of things (todo items, appointments, contacts etc)
22:27:00 <wmg> kc5tja: oorah! my first ever programming experience was a Forth floppy booting a commodore 64
22:27:26 <slava> Herkamire, i don't want to get too fancy with my db
22:27:27 <kc5tja> wmg: Yep.  That's my goal.
22:27:30 <wmg> Only later did I move on to Logo, which I'm still convinced is the Best Programming Language Ever
22:27:30 <slava> Herkamire, btw is yours flat file
22:27:35 <slava> Herkamire, a 1-level namespace?
22:27:57 <wmg> ah, to be 8 in 1984 again...
22:28:04 <slava> i was born in 84
22:28:25 * wmg envies the young their youth
22:28:26 <Herkamire> I was 4
22:28:31 <kc5tja> wmg: Nope.  Logo is a great language, but it's just a dialect of Lisp (in a very literal sense of the term).  I was shocked to see all the list manipulators in Logo, able to do some really freaky things.  To me, Logo really is Lisp.
22:28:35 <wmg> once you hit 27, time starts to show....
22:28:48 <wmg> kc5tja: yeah, I realized that once I got into lisp
22:29:01 <wmg> logo's applicative capabilities are nothing short of astounding...
22:29:04 <wmg> they actually outdo scheme
22:29:21 --- join: solar_angel (~jenni@MTL-HSE-ppp169075.qc.sympatico.ca) joined #forth
22:29:28 <kc5tja> Heh, maybe that's something I can port to the Dolphin: Logo.
22:29:30 <wmg> it's a shame that more functional languages aren't taught to beginning students
22:29:33 <kc5tja> errr...to the Kestrel rather.
22:30:08 <Herkamire> slava: I don't have a database yet, I just store my source token in an array of blocks
22:30:10 <wmg> though I guess kids only ever learn the imperative side of logo
22:30:18 <wmg> rpt 4 { fd 50; rt 90}, etc.
22:30:33 <wmg> still a beautiful language
22:30:44 <solar_angel> logo?  maybe if you're a plotter.
22:30:56 <wmg> solar_angel: I was 8
22:31:02 <wmg> it was a good experience for a kid
22:31:05 <solar_angel> wmg - hehehe, i know, i know.
22:31:10 <solar_angel> logo is a decent kid's language.
22:31:12 <kc5tja> solar_angel: Logo is Lisp -- about the only thing Logo can't do is CLOS, and that's only because of syntactical limitations.
22:31:17 <solar_angel> i started with BASIC when i was 5.
22:31:30 * wmg still doesn't know basic
22:31:33 <solar_angel> kc5tja - oh.  hrm...  i didn't know logo was like lisp.
22:31:43 <Herkamire> currently I just write the a kernel, the source blocks, and the dictionary to an ELF file
22:31:47 <wmg> solar_angel: yeah, it has full lambda application if you care to do it
22:31:49 <solar_angel> lisp is bizarre to program in.
22:31:58 <kc5tja> solar_angel: I didn't either, until I saw some really *gnarly* list-manipulations and functional-style functions written in Logo.  Blew my mind.
22:32:02 <wmg> lisp is what I bootstrapped my forth from
22:32:02 <solar_angel> i grok forth a lot easier than lisp.
22:32:13 <wmg> because C scares me
22:32:15 <solar_angel> wmg - really?
22:32:20 <solar_angel> i bootstrapped my forth from assembly :P
22:32:30 <slava> kc5tja, is logo's syntax elegant?
22:32:32 <wmg> solar_angel: I used lisp to write the assembly that gave me a working forth
22:32:34 <slava> solar_angel, you don't like lisp?
22:32:36 <solar_angel> it boots on the bare metal, without an underlying OS.
22:32:48 <slava> solar_angel, i think its kind of neat :) its syntax is almost as flexible as forth's.
22:32:52 <solar_angel> slava - i didn't say that...  lisp looks cool.  i just don't grok it like i do forth.
22:33:07 <slava> solar_angel, lisp programmers like to write *long* functions. that annoys me
22:33:08 <solar_angel> forth is natural to me.  i can code forth in my sleep (and i often do)
22:33:28 <solar_angel> (actually, i solved a particularly nasty problem in my OS one night while sleeping...)
22:33:36 <wmg> lisp doesn't reward factoring like forth does
22:33:43 <solar_angel> lisp isn't natural to me, and results in various gnashing of teeth...
22:33:48 <solar_angel> but i still think it's a cool language.
22:33:52 <wmg> though I use lisp almost exclusively at work
22:34:00 <solar_angel> wow, a lisp programmer :)
22:34:10 <wmg> I'm a sysadmin and it's either lisp or perl
22:34:13 <wmg> I like lisp better
22:34:20 <solar_angel> wmg - i used nasm to get bootstrapped...  there's still a small stub of nasm code in my kernel.
22:34:28 <solar_angel> but it basically hasn't changed in many generations.
22:34:36 <solar_angel> i'm working on a real FORTH assembler now.
22:34:47 <slava> i'd love to write my own OS some day!
22:34:52 <slava> but it won't be forth probably
22:35:02 <slava> maybe something like APL, who knows :)
22:35:09 <solar_angel> my OS is all FORTH :)
22:35:09 * wmg flees from apl
22:35:17 <slava> solar_angel, blocks or files?
22:35:19 <solar_angel> i did some neat things in my FORTH today.
22:35:20 <kc5tja> APL ROCKS!
22:35:25 <solar_angel> slava - *NEITHER*
22:35:29 <slava> solar_angel, explain! :)
22:35:32 <solar_angel> i don't have any block device support :P
22:35:39 <slava> solar_angel, in memory?
22:35:42 <Herkamire> solar_angel: why are you keeping the sources closed to your OS? are you planning to sell it or something?
22:35:50 <wmg> storage? we don't need no stinking storage!
22:35:55 <slava> solar_angel, make it dump an image to disk!
22:35:59 <solar_angel> slava - i'm still bootstrapping.  it loads the image from the floppy.
22:35:59 --- join: fridge (~fridge@dsl-203-33-165-4.NSW.netspace.net.au) joined #forth
22:36:02 <slava> solar_angel, transparent persistent store
22:36:06 <slava> i see.
22:36:11 <solar_angel> no, i'll pass on the transparent persistant store thing.
22:36:21 <slava> i'm slaving away at a b-tree here
22:36:21 <solar_angel> i already do some cute evil with pointer manipulations that makes that tricky to do.
22:36:31 <wmg> good old b-trees
22:36:32 <slava> i'm sure youve coded plenty of those
22:36:43 <solar_angel> a b-tree?   actually, i've mostly avoided the damn things, heh.
22:36:51 <solar_angel> i drew the line at an AVL tree.
22:36:55 <solar_angel> or a fastarray.
22:37:00 <wmg> my first attempt at a forth used a trie for the dictionary
22:37:05 <solar_angel> although i came up with a b-tree extension of a fastarray that i wanted to work on.
22:37:10 <slava> solar_angel: AVL is useless; red/black is just as easy to implement but its more efficient.
22:37:16 <wmg> when I realized that would take about 2G to store my dictionary, I gave up
22:37:29 <solar_angel> slava - no, you're quite wrong :P   red/black is nowhere near as easy to implement, and deletions *suck*
22:37:44 <wmg> red/black's use domain is pretty specific
22:37:47 <solar_angel> AVL amortizes the cost over each transaction, is far more predictable, and deletes quite nicely.
22:38:10 <solar_angel> red/black trees were invented by java weenies who don't mind having a garbage collector thrashing their performance randomly every so often.
22:38:15 <Herkamire> I don't think I've ever used a tree for anything
22:38:23 <slava> solar_angel, you claim they produce more objects?
22:38:29 <slava> solar_angel, r/b has been around longer than java
22:38:30 <solar_angel> slava - what?
22:38:34 <Herkamire> or at least I never implemented one
22:38:38 <slava> solar_angel, "red/black trees were invented by java weenies who don't mind having a garbage collector thrashing their performance randomly every so often."
22:38:41 <solar_angel> slava - oh i know, i know, but so have garbage collectors.'
22:38:53 <solar_angel> produce more objects?  where did i say that?
22:39:03 <slava> well, how does r/b thash the gc?
22:39:04 <solar_angel> (scratch java and insert favorite GC language)
22:39:11 <solar_angel> it's not the GC that i'm concerned with
22:39:14 <slava> lisp :)
22:39:21 <solar_angel> it's the horribly unpredictable performance of deletions
22:39:26 <slava> ah
22:39:29 <solar_angel> AVL tree has a nice, smoothly amortized penality
22:39:36 <solar_angel> similar to reference counting, for instance.
22:39:38 <solar_angel> i like that.
22:39:40 <wmg> a single deletion can cause every single leaf to move
22:39:42 <wmg> or no leafs to move
22:39:43 <slava> ref counting is slow
22:39:48 <solar_angel> ref counting is *NOT* slow.
22:39:56 <slava> if you generate a lot of garbage, generational gc is faster
22:40:12 <solar_angel> sure...  but ref counting is *deterministic*
22:40:13 <slava> or even copying gc if you don't mind stops :)
22:40:25 <wmg> I tombstone, personally
22:40:33 <solar_angel> you can *rely* on the timing of the deletions of reference counting.
22:40:45 <slava> why would you?
22:40:50 <solar_angel> why would you?
22:40:58 <solar_angel> well...  you can use it to create lock objects, for one thing.
22:41:01 <slava> its possible to have gc stops on the order of 20 ms... good enough for desktop and server apps
22:41:02 <solar_angel> Lock mylock(obj);
22:41:04 * wmg dons asbestos
22:41:08 <solar_angel> and then when it goes out of scope, it's all good.
22:41:15 <slava> wmg, hey i'm not flaming...
22:41:17 <wmg> not that gc is that important anymore
22:41:24 <wmg> slava that was in prep of that comment I just made
22:41:29 <slava> ah
22:41:34 <slava> why 'anymore'?
22:41:39 <solar_angel> lol
22:42:03 <solar_angel> well, the whole gc vs refcounting is rather moot in an average FORTH system, lol.
22:42:04 <wmg> because if you are programming for what most people call a "computer", it's probably on an OS that will page & manage the memory better than you can
22:42:25 <wmg> now, if you're programming a car or radio, that's different
22:42:31 <fridge>  /names #forth
22:42:35 <slava> wmg, you're saying don't deallocate memory?
22:42:46 <wmg> I won't say I don't deallocate memory
22:42:52 <slava> re-use same storage, etc?
22:42:56 <wmg> just that I've leaked a word or two in my day
22:43:01 <solar_angel> wmg - part of my thing is that i do a lot of work on realtime embedded apps...  and generally we say predictable costs are better than unpredictable costs, no matter how much you save in average case (unless it's a different Order, of course)
22:43:06 <wmg> I try to stay out of the heap to begin with
22:43:14 <slava> solar_angel, that's where we differ :) i like to have a p4 1.8 ghz at my disposal :)
22:43:24 <wmg> solar_angel: yeah, you fit into the exception I mentioned
22:43:26 <fridge> kc5tja: you've written an impressive amount of documentation already
22:43:37 <wmg> if it has the words "embedded" or "real time" in it, yeah memory management is crucial
22:43:48 <solar_angel> slava - sure, but on that hardware the choice between AVL and RB has so little effect on performance...
22:43:58 <solar_angel> that i'll just stick to what works on my embedded platforms.
22:44:20 <solar_angel> wmg - exactly.  and the thing about real-time things, if you don't know how long a task will take, you can really throw your latency guarantees.
22:44:25 <kc5tja> fridge: thanks.  But it's hardly complete.  :)
22:44:39 <solar_angel> i don't really care that an AVL insertion or deletion will move 8 items each time i do it, when an RB will have an average case of 1 or 2...
22:44:44 <slava> ieventually 'embedded' with be so beefy you'll be able to have gc
22:44:47 <solar_angel> when the RB can blow up and move 16 things to do the same task.
22:44:53 <wmg> afk... brb
22:45:13 <solar_angel> slava - ever work on an 8-bit CPU with 64 bytes of RAM and 1K of ROM?
22:45:17 <solar_angel> i guess not. :P
22:45:19 <slava> solar_angel, nope :)
22:45:27 <slava> solar_angel, slowest i programmed was 33 mhz 68040.
22:45:35 <solar_angel> oh i didn't say slow
22:45:43 <solar_angel> these things can run at 40MHz easily
22:45:45 <slava> solar_angel, actually, no; 16 mhz 68020.
22:45:49 <solar_angel> and they're fast RISC design.
22:45:58 <solar_angel> they're not slow, just small.
22:46:02 <slava> right
22:46:08 <solar_angel> and every bit of that memory can run at the full clock speed.
22:46:12 <solar_angel> they're 10 MIPS, easily.
22:46:13 <slava> that's nice
22:46:21 <solar_angel> predictably, even.
22:46:34 <slava> i guess you have your code timed to a nanosecond :)
22:46:38 <kc5tja> PICs are wasteful; they *could* be getting 40MIPS easily if they'd just invest the time into optimizing the control flow paths in the CPU.
22:46:53 <solar_angel> kc5tja - no kidding...  ubicom did a much better job.
22:47:02 <solar_angel> those things blaze along easily at 40MIPS.
22:47:09 <kc5tja> ubicom is the SX line, right?
22:47:11 <wmg> the better job never wins out; the cheapest job that meets specs does. Sadly.
22:47:28 <kc5tja> wmg: Also first to market.
22:47:37 <wmg> true
22:47:39 <solar_angel> kc5tja - yep
22:47:51 <wmg> how many bugs can ultimately be traced to the design of the 8088?
22:48:20 <solar_angel> slava - and yes, a lot of my code *IS* timed to the nanosecond.
22:48:28 <solar_angel> when you're bit-banging full-duplex serial, you have no choice.
22:48:56 <Herkamire> I wanna make a robot with a bunch of PICs someday
22:48:57 <kc5tja> Not a whole heck of a lot, I'd imagine.  But let's put it this way, if a CPU has segments, you've *got* to design your software around segments (e.g., PC/GEOS), and not try to waste time getting the CPU to fit the flat address space model (e.g., Windows, OS/2, DOS, ...)
22:49:28 <solar_angel> kc5tja - you're spot on with that one.  the problem is mostly C, though.  C hates segments.
22:49:36 <solar_angel> my FORTH compiler is designed for segments, and it works quite nicely.
22:49:51 <solar_angel> it makes no assumption that SS=DS.  and it works.
22:49:57 <kc5tja> Absolutely.  
22:50:03 <kc5tja> And I *love* segmentation in protected mode.
22:50:04 <solar_angel> i'm planning to move my return stack to FS soon too.
22:50:07 <kc5tja> oh my GOD it's so nice.
22:50:07 <solar_angel> *nods* i know.
22:50:10 <solar_angel> it is, at that.
22:50:18 <slava> mac os on the m68k only allowed code blocks up to 65k; it wasn't quite the same since they were loaded into a flat 32 bit address space...
22:50:23 <solar_angel> the x86 is a really nice segmented CPU.
22:50:26 <kc5tja> Segments == capabilities.  'Nuff said.
22:51:00 <wmg> segments have their uses
22:51:24 <kc5tja> slava: 64K actually, but that was because MacOS System 1 lacked the ability to do load-time code relocation in memory.  So software for the early Macs had to use PC-relative addressing and A5-relative global memory accesses.
22:51:33 <solar_angel> slava - if you want to see real nanosecond-timed code, i've got a good example that even i would balk at writing.
22:52:16 <slava> kc5tja, typo should've been 4
22:52:34 <slava> kc5tja, i liked classic mac os though
22:52:59 <solar_angel> http://www.rickard.gunee.com/projects/video/sx/tetris.php
22:53:32 <wmg> the old mac os's were brilliant as far as their UI went
22:53:33 <solar_angel> this guy is generating *color composite video* *AND* sound, *IN SOFTWARE*.
22:53:48 <slava> nice
22:53:48 <solar_angel> there are no hardware tricks here, just a few resistors.
22:54:07 <wmg> I still think putting the menu bar on the top of the whole screen is a great idea and I don't get why other graphical systems haven't caught on to that
22:54:12 <kc5tja> wmg: MacOS is still rather nice.  It's different from the old system, but contrary to all the nay-sayers, it's still amazingly consistent in its own way.
22:54:17 <solar_angel> wmg - kde can do that.
22:54:27 <wmg> solar_angel: yeah? I'm a windowmaker man myself
22:54:29 <kc5tja> wmg: They have.  Use an Amiga some time.
22:54:31 <wmg> I keep meaning to try KDE
22:54:33 <solar_angel> wmg - i'm a vtwm kinda girl.
22:54:40 <kc5tja> wmg: As far as everyone else, it's because Apple keeps SUING people for doing it.
22:54:41 <solar_angel> i recently switched from twm, because i wanted more desktops.
22:54:49 <wmg> heh
22:54:50 <wmg> fair enough
22:55:04 * solar_angel is a tad on the old-fashioned side sometimes, but isn't sure how she got this way.
22:55:07 * solar_angel thinks it'
22:55:14 * solar_angel thinks it's her devotion to minimalism.
22:55:27 <wmg> I like minimalism. But I need a dock.
22:55:43 <solar_angel> wmg - well, i *did* write an on-screen display daemon to catch all my system notifications.
22:55:57 <solar_angel> oh... here's a couple cool FORTH words for you all...
22:56:03 <solar_angel> i wrote these two words called HOOK and UNHOOK
22:56:08 <solar_angel> you call HOOK like:
22:56:12 <solar_angel> HOOK fn1 fn2
22:56:31 <solar_angel> and it makes fn1 call fn2 instead, including making all previously compiled instances of it.
22:56:43 <solar_angel> err, making all previously compiled instances also call fn2 instead of fn2
22:56:45 <solar_angel> er, instead of fn1
22:56:49 * solar_angel is having a bad typing day.
22:56:50 --- part: wmg left #forth
22:56:55 <solar_angel> and UNHOOK just calls like:
22:56:57 <solar_angel> UNHOOK fn1
22:57:02 <solar_angel> which makes fn1 go back to normal.
22:57:48 <Sonarman> like DEFERred words?
22:57:54 <solar_angel> DEFER?
22:57:58 <solar_angel> i actually don't know DEFER.
22:57:59 <kc5tja> solar_angel: Ever use the GEM desktop?  (Speaking of being old fashioned)
22:58:17 <solar_angel> kc5tja - no...  i have all the manuals though, for some odd reason.  i've used GEOS/64 though.
22:59:50 <kc5tja> GEM is open source now.  It's a MacOS-like GUI that is *extremely* tiny.
22:59:57 <solar_angel> anyway, about HOOK and UNHOOK... i'm using a DTC FORTH, which stores "CALL _ENTER" in the CF of each word...
23:00:25 <solar_angel> i just replace those 5 bytes with "JMP word2" in HOOK, and replace them back with "CALL _ENTER" in UNHOOK
23:00:28 <solar_angel> it's really quite simple.
23:00:32 <solar_angel> and it works quite nicely.
23:00:38 <solar_angel> kc5tja - coolness.
23:01:36 <solar_angel> (oh, of course, don't try to HOOK a word that's defined in assembly...  Bad Things (TM) will happen...)
23:01:49 <kc5tja> solar_angel: My OS' GUI is going to be based on GEM.  Not a direct port, but based on its concepts and overall architecture.  Been thinking of calling it either GEM/2000 or Jewel.  Not sure which.
23:02:00 <solar_angel> hehehe, cool.
23:02:10 <solar_angel> you're writing an OS?
23:02:22 <solar_angel> my OS's GUI is going to be quite a lot like a console, actually.
23:02:47 <solar_angel> i'm thinking of something like virtual consoles that can be optionally in graphics modes.
23:03:14 <solar_angel> started writing VGA and floppy drivers today...  i can now enable smooth-scrolling, and seek the FDD heads. :P
23:03:31 <slava> solar_angel, and turtle graphics :)
23:03:41 <slava> kc5tja, jewel is better :)
23:03:46 <solar_angel> slava - eh?
23:03:53 <slava> solar_angel, like postscript
23:03:55 <slava> 100 100 moveto
23:03:57 <slava> 200 200 lineto
23:04:02 <solar_angel> heheh
23:04:13 <solar_angel> FORTH graphics :)
23:04:17 <slava> yes :)
23:04:37 <slava> i'm implementing something like this soon in my environment. either that or the wiki; can't decide :)
23:04:49 <solar_angel> actually, i'm considering writing some sort of interactive editor that lets me edit a group of functions with test runs beetween, turn it into some sort of CAD program.
23:06:47 <kc5tja> solar_angel: Yes.  Two,  of sorts.  The first is FTS/Forth itself, which is just a raw Forth environment running on bare metal.
23:07:19 <kc5tja> The second is Dolphin, a single-level-store, object capability secure operating system for more advanced applications.
23:07:34 <kc5tja> (The latter will have significant portions of it written in Forth)
23:07:59 <solar_angel> kc5tja - oh, cool :)
23:08:24 <solar_angel> i like the expressive power of FORTH.
23:09:04 <kc5tja> solar_angel: Likewise.
23:09:33 <Herkamire> turtle graphics means move-to line-to set-color right?
23:10:09 <kc5tja> Herkamire: No, actually.  But they're closely related.
23:10:33 <Herkamire> does it mean turn-left draw-forward kinda stuff?
23:10:35 <kc5tja> Turtle graphics means you have your current drawing point, the turtle, which is then directed via *vectors* (direction and magnitude) rather than *coordinates*.
23:10:43 <kc5tja> Yes.
23:10:49 <Herkamire> oh
23:10:56 <Herkamire> I had some fun with that when I was twelve
23:11:08 <Herkamire> program called logo I think
23:11:16 <warpzero> Hey guys.
23:11:28 <Herkamire> had fun making squigly things that sometimes stayed on the screen
23:11:40 <Herkamire> hi warpzero :)
23:12:24 <kc5tja> Herkamire: Yes, that's what started this whole conversation was Logo.  :)
23:12:31 <kc5tja> (see above, where I claim Logo is Lisp)
23:12:59 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
23:13:36 <Herkamire> cool
23:14:13 <Herkamire> I was wondering if I was getting a programming language logo and that weird drawing program on my dad's old computer mixed up
23:14:35 <kc5tja> :)
23:15:26 <Herkamire> someday someday somedy
23:15:34 <Herkamire> I can't wait 'til I can use herkforth as my main OS
23:15:52 <kc5tja> I just need the discipline to continue working on FTS/Forth.
23:15:57 <kc5tja> It's the discipline that I lack.
23:16:13 <slava> Herkamire, hehe
23:17:22 <Herkamire> mmmm. I'm lacking motivation too
23:17:33 <solar_angel> Herkamire - i'm almost there with Cy/VOS...
23:17:43 <solar_angel> i'm on the brink of having a filesystem driver
23:17:55 <solar_angel> it's just going to be VFAT, but still... :P
23:18:04 <kc5tja> Dolphin will be based on a cache kernel design, written in FTS/Forth
23:18:18 <solar_angel> i just have to finish up the FDD driver (pretty simple), write the VFAT driver, then write IV (my editor)
23:18:31 <kc5tja> IV.  :)  
23:18:33 <solar_angel> kc5tja - a cache kernel?  that's a word i haven't heard in a while.
23:18:33 <kc5tja> Nice name.  :)
23:18:39 <solar_angel> kc5tja - you like? :P
23:18:41 <kc5tja> Yep.  
23:18:52 <solar_angel> i guess someone got the joke this time :)
23:19:08 <slava> solar_angel, what's IV like?
23:19:09 <kc5tja> I was going to use an exokernel, but then I realized that I can get all the features of an exokernel in a cache kernel if I stick with libOSes instead of caching Kernel objects.
23:19:19 <solar_angel> slava - like VI, but written in FORTH.
23:19:23 <slava> i c
23:19:35 <solar_angel> Vim! Vim! Vim!
23:19:36 <slava> i'm an editor freak :)
23:19:40 <solar_angel> oh?
23:19:42 <kc5tja> solar_angel: I wrote a block editor that was inspired by VI, which I called VIBE.  VI-like Block Editor.  :D
23:19:57 <solar_angel> kc5tja - coolness.  i was, at one time, working on an editor called eVIl.
23:19:58 <kc5tja> solar_angel: I gots me VIM 6.3a on my box.
23:20:56 <Herkamire> solar_angel: that's great your OS is almost ready.
23:21:00 <slava> solar_angel, i wrote jedit, an editor in java :-)
23:21:05 --- join: I440r (~mark4@168-215-246-243.gen.twtelecom.net) joined #forth
23:21:08 <slava> hi I440r
23:21:09 <Herkamire> I'm not going to do any sort of conventional file system
23:21:12 <slava> Herkamire, nice
23:21:15 <solar_angel> Herkamire - yep :)
23:21:19 <solar_angel> slava - *java*??
23:21:20 <slava> Herkamire, what kind of db though? flat file?
23:21:35 <Herkamire> dunno what flat file means. 
23:21:49 <Herkamire> db will have numeric (32 bit) IDs for variable length data
23:21:53 <slava> solar_angel, its nice having portability between *nix, mac and windows without *any* extra effort :)
23:21:58 <kc5tja> Herkamire: /etc/passwd is a flat-file database
23:22:10 <solar_angel> slava - bah.
23:22:14 <slava> Herkamire, flat file means 1 central directory
23:22:23 <slava> Herkamire, any kind of links?
23:22:24 <Herkamire> and (at first anyway) you will not be able to change the length of the data once you've allocated a record.
23:22:32 <solar_angel> slava - honestly, the targets that my OS is going to be ported to make that point invalid for me...
23:22:38 <Herkamire> the ID is a link to that record
23:22:50 <slava> solar_angel, well i don't have my own OS :)
23:22:53 <solar_angel> i'll likely have it running on a Z80 long before it hits a PPC.
23:23:04 <solar_angel> slava - it's worth it :)
23:23:31 <slava> i like too many apps i use that i have no intention of coding equivalents for myself
23:24:43 <kc5tja> slava: This is one of the reasons why I chose to use a cache kernel for Dolphin, while borrowing libOSes from exokernels.  There are a lot of Linux applications that I'd like to see ported to Dolphin, but which aren't likely to happen.  So if I port "just enough" of Linux itself to run under Dolphin, then I can hopefully get these applications working, even if they're on crutches, until something better and more native comes along.
23:24:56 <slava> kc5tja, nice
23:25:04 <slava> kc5tja, there is a linux that runs on l4
23:25:13 * kc5tja nods
23:25:22 <solar_angel> l4?
23:25:24 <kc5tja> There's also a Linux that runs on a nanokernel of some kind too.
23:25:29 <kc5tja> solar_angel: High performance microkernel.
23:25:37 <solar_angel> ah
23:26:04 <solar_angel> linux isn't really much more than INT 0x80, honestly.
23:26:13 <solar_angel> and that's not all that hard to replicate in another kernel.
23:26:13 <kc5tja> solar_angel: Exactly.  
23:26:36 <kc5tja> solar_angel: Except for the more esoteric interfaces, emulating the kernel ought not be much harder than emulating DOS.
23:26:48 <Herkamire> I wonder how hard it would be to run mac os or linux or whatever under herkforthos
23:27:00 <Herkamire> MOL works well enough
23:27:06 <kc5tja> MOL?
23:27:10 <solar_angel> kc5tja - exactly.
23:27:24 <solar_angel> kc5tja - that's how UML does it, after all.
23:28:12 <Herkamire> Mac On Linux
23:28:13 <kc5tja> Yep.  And there's no need to emulate its *exact* behavior -- device drivers will be native Dolphin device drivers, and no need for kernel modules, since 99.99999% applications don't care about those... etc.
23:28:29 <Herkamire> Linux program to run Mac OS in a virtual terminal or X window
23:28:40 <solar_angel> cuteness.
23:28:47 <kc5tja> Herkamire: Ahh, nice.  I've been looking at PearPC the other day.  THAT looks cool.  :)
23:28:54 <kc5tja> It even runs on x86 platforms.
23:29:01 <Herkamire> kc5tja: what's that?
23:29:38 <kc5tja> It's a PowerPC motherboard emulator that is sophisticated enough to run PowerPC versions of Linux, BSD, and MacOS X 10.0.3.
23:29:56 <Herkamire> oh wow
23:30:04 <kc5tja> Yeah.  :)
23:30:49 <slava> can it run ppc classic mac os?
23:30:53 <Herkamire> how new is this? I thought there wasn't such a thing
23:31:50 <kc5tja> slava: It should.  I don't know.
23:32:22 <kc5tja> Herkamire: http://pearpc.sourceforge.net/
23:32:29 <kc5tja> Fairly new -- 0.1.2 is the latest version.
23:33:40 <Herkamire> new this month :)
23:34:51 <kc5tja> I was thinking, once I have the FTS1001 and x86 versions of Dolphin done, of porting it to run on PearPC, just to see what it'd be like to program for the PowerPC at the system level.
23:35:44 <solar_angel> kc5tja - i was thinking the same thing for Cy/VOS, actually.
23:36:50 <Herkamire> :)
23:38:15 --- quit: Sonarman ("leaving")
23:39:57 --- quit: warpzero ("Tried to warn you about Chino and Daddy Gee, but I can't seem to get to you through the U.S. Mail.")
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/04.05.21