00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.05.03
01:06:48 --- quit: ianp (Ping timeout: 14400 seconds)
03:22:47 --- join: scope (~junk@njd.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth
04:32:35 --- join: qFox (C00K13S@cp12172-a.roose1.nb.home.nl) joined #forth
05:07:09 --- join: I440r (~mark4@adsl-64-219-100-33.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth
05:25:35 --- quit: scope (Client Quit)
05:28:08 --- join: scope (~junk@njd.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth
05:33:10 --- join: Serg (~knoppix@193.201.231.126) joined #forth
05:33:38 <Serg> re
05:33:52 <Robert> Hi Serg 
05:33:57 <Serg> imagine, i just woke up - almost 17:00 here !
05:34:20 <Serg> 16:30 really
05:34:47 <lucifer> wheres that? middle east?
05:35:01 <Serg> RU, Moscow
05:35:17 <lucifer> ah :)
05:35:59 <Serg> same longitude as Teheran, as wrotten in Windoze timezone dialog
05:36:32 <lucifer> oh moscow is more eastward than i imagined then..
05:36:49 <lucifer> ah well in a couple of years you're assimilated to the EU anyway
05:36:50 <lucifer> muha!
05:56:39 <Serg> hm, i have a question i don't even know where to ask ;)
05:57:39 <Serg> is there any platform-independent, common (and better open source) dictionary format ?
06:05:37 <lucifer> f.i. english<->french?
06:13:44 <Serg> yeah, better en<->ru :))
06:24:55 <lucifer> free dictionaries on the web tend to suck tho :(
06:25:20 <lucifer> so probably there still isnt any of such a global open format
06:25:30 <Serg> i mean installable locally and accessible buth under windoze and linux
06:28:51 <qFox> <br>
06:28:55 <qFox> http://www.freetranslation.com/
06:29:01 <qFox> works fairly ok
06:29:09 <qFox> for your quick translations anyways
07:03:01 <Serg> oops , something sucking traffic hard...
07:17:42 --- quit: Serg ("Leaving")
07:18:30 <lucifer> what worm? :P
07:54:45 --- join: fridge (~hovil@CommSecureAustPtyLtd.sb1.optus.net.au) joined #forth
08:03:44 --- join: Herkamire (stjohns@h000094d30ba2.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth
08:09:32 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@69.79.24.31) joined #forth
09:10:36 --- quit: madwork_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
09:46:42 --- join: warp0x00 (~chatzilla@150.131.145.109) joined #forth
10:14:47 <fridge> hi
10:15:07 <warp0x00> hi
10:20:42 --- quit: warp0x00 ("no reason")
10:27:03 <SDO> just in case anyone cares, there is a BeOS FORTH site I put together, FORTH ports for the beos...  http://beforth.dyndns.org:8080/
10:30:14 --- quit: qFox ("this is mirc's last attempt of communication...")
10:32:08 <Herkamire> SDO: what's your discworld character name?
10:32:11 --- join: qFox (C00K13S@cp12172-a.roose1.nb.home.nl) joined #forth
10:32:26 <Herkamire> I'm Herk
10:36:32 --- join: test123 (~test123@pD9E5944F.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth
10:38:47 <test123> hello forthers
10:40:03 <Herkamire> hi test123
10:42:44 <test123> how come lucifer joined this channel? oO.Oo
10:44:09 <test123> Herkamire: ~hi~. how's life?
10:44:49 <Herkamire> life is good :)
10:44:52 <test123> what are the hottest forth prj's these days?
10:45:16 <test123> Herkamire: good to hear :-)
10:46:18 <Herkamire> dunno what's hot really. I haven't worked on my forth in a while.
10:46:39 <Herkamire> there are 2-3 people working on adding TCP support to colorforth. That is making good progress I think
10:47:40 <test123> Herkamire: do you read the colorforth ml?
10:48:01 <Herkamire> no, I just hang out in #c4th on ircnet
10:48:09 <qFox> c4th?
10:48:28 <qFox> C Forth? or see Forth? :)
10:48:48 <Herkamire> Color 4th
10:48:50 <Herkamire> colorforth
10:48:52 <qFox> ah
10:48:53 <qFox> :)
10:49:29 <test123> Herkamire: what about a forth jabber irc gw daemon?
10:49:51 <Herkamire> gw?
10:49:57 <qFox> gateway
10:50:01 <Herkamire> rigth
10:50:09 <test123> just met speuler at jabber.org's forth chan
10:50:12 <qFox> guess.... :)
10:50:35 <Herkamire> you want to do irc in your jabber client or the other way around?
10:50:57 <qFox> i think he means a bridge between the two
10:51:44 <Herkamire> I'm pretty happy with bitlbee
10:51:55 <test123> a jabber server implementing the irc protocol extension
10:52:11 <Herkamire> I don't know if it supports jabber chat rooms. one on one jabber chat works though
10:52:21 <test123> just like ejabberd, which is in erlang
10:52:58 <test123> mapping muc/multiuserchat to irc
10:53:46 <qFox> thats a bridge, and not very difficult (at least in mirc its not). especially once you've got a jabberclient allready 
10:54:08 <Herkamire> so write an irc server and a jabber server that talk to eachother so you can have people connect via jabber, or irc, and be in the same chatroom?
10:54:18 <qFox> but the irc protocol can be implemented very fast, with minimal support 
10:54:58 <test123> there's already a xmpp irc spec
10:56:15 <Herkamire> I like that jabber is open, and some of it's features, but I'm not going to do any programming with XML unless I'm being paid handsomely
10:57:00 <test123> yes, irc is easy, but once you want to combine all those different protocols in realtime..
10:57:35 <Herkamire> test123: you're talking about writing an IRC server and building it into the jabber server right?
10:58:09 <test123> sort of, yes. see -->
10:58:13 <test123> there's already a xmpp irc spec
10:58:33 <Herkamire> so people can connect to the irc port on the jabber server with normal irc clients right?
10:58:59 <test123> that means, the interesting(new) part would be the forth coding
11:01:52 <test123> Herkamire: that's another extension, but yes, why not. maybe clustering an existing ircd to the jabberd would be better for that case(irc clients)?
11:02:26 <Herkamire> what are you talking about doing then?
11:02:49 <Herkamire> are you talking about having the jabber server make connections to (say) this ircd?
11:03:05 <Herkamire> and sending on things that people have said through their jabber clients?
11:03:20 <test123> Herkamire: but, of course, it's about forming *one* room for diff protocols
11:04:06 <Herkamire> ok, that won't work with ircnet though
11:04:13 <Herkamire> they only allow one connection per IP
11:04:58 <test123> for what do you need more ip's?
11:05:59 <Herkamire> what are those things called in jabber that you register to use another protocol
11:06:10 <Herkamire> ICQ Transport or something?
11:07:35 <test123> hmm transport i know from gaim, meaning the use of one client for different servers(+/protocols)
11:09:32 <test123> jabberd's can theirself allow jabberclients to be bridged to several other servers/protocols. there i guess it's called services/gateways
11:10:35 <test123> see the diff? a)client 1toX b) client through server 1toX
11:14:01 <test123> Herkamire: "not xml unless" done already some?
11:15:25 <Herkamire> I've done some tinkering.
11:15:30 <Herkamire> played with sabcmd
11:15:52 <Herkamire> converted an XML database to SQL
11:16:07 <test123> lucifer fallen angel what was your name before you fell?
11:16:36 <Herkamire> I've never written software that uses XML
11:17:19 <test123> Herkamire: xml db? which? apache? eXist? or xml fs?
11:17:26 <Herkamire> (I ended up using xslt to convert the XML database into a PHP script that inserted the data into mysql :)) heh
11:18:02 <test123> gosh
11:18:03 <Herkamire> just an xml file someone sent us. it had a client's products catalog.
11:20:27 <test123> Herkamire: have you seen yet the congruence of ntriples rdf and word dictionaries?
11:21:09 <Herkamire> huh? what's ntriples? what's rdf again?
11:21:33 <test123> since xml needs trees, rdf is much more flexible
11:22:01 <test123> ntriples is the easiest syntax of rdf
11:23:07 <test123> ntriples basically is: lines containing 3 words, 2 whitespaces, 1 cr
11:24:56 <Herkamire> rrrrrr I can't get to w3c
11:26:12 <test123> varA x 0; varA y 0; varA z 0; that's point varA defined in three dimensions. 
11:27:58 <test123> www.forth.org title "Forth is mighty Fun"; that's another triple
11:29:50 <test123> someone knows of a morphology parser/analyzer written in forth?
11:30:32 <test123> ie. language morphology..
11:36:08 <test123> http://rdftwig.sourceforge.net/paper/pres/foil07.html
11:36:29 <test123> Herkamire: that's especially for you
11:46:19 <test123> the pic implements 7 triples ala: a to b; b to c; that's the diff to xml: having redundant trees instead of tiny non-redundant/ambiguous triples
11:53:44 <test123> s/word dictionaries/forth (word) dictionaries/
12:15:27 --- quit: test123 (Remote closed the connection)
12:15:28 --- join: test123 (~test123@pD9E5944F.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth
12:15:35 --- quit: test123 (Remote closed the connection)
12:15:36 --- join: test123 (~test123@pD9E5944F.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth
12:15:43 --- quit: test123 (Remote closed the connection)
12:15:44 --- join: test123 (~test123@pD9E5944F.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth
12:15:51 --- quit: test123 (Remote closed the connection)
12:15:53 --- join: test123 (~test123@pD9E5944F.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth
12:15:59 --- quit: test123 (Remote closed the connection)
12:16:00 --- join: test123 (~test123@pD9E5944F.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth
12:16:07 --- quit: test123 (Remote closed the connection)
12:16:08 --- join: test123 (~test123@pD9E5944F.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth
12:16:15 --- quit: test123 (Remote closed the connection)
12:16:17 --- join: test123 (~test123@pD9E5944F.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth
12:16:26 --- quit: test123 (Remote closed the connection)
12:16:28 --- join: test123 (~test123@pD9E5944F.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth
12:16:34 --- quit: test123 (Remote closed the connection)
12:16:35 --- join: test123 (~test123@pD9E5944F.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth
12:16:42 --- quit: test123 (Remote closed the connection)
12:16:43 --- join: test123 (~test123@pD9E5944F.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth
12:16:50 --- quit: test123 (Remote closed the connection)
12:21:36 --- join: test123 (~test123@pD9E5944F.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth
12:22:08 <test123> oops a rejoin spammer..
12:22:33 <test123> hmm. code is not really stable
12:24:25 --- nick: test123 -> mod|alpha
12:36:58 <Herkamire> I still can't stand xml
12:37:15 <Herkamire> it's way to complex for most things
12:37:23 <Herkamire> and incapable of doing a bunch of other things
12:37:47 <Herkamire> and people's solutions to getting it to do new things is to make in way more complex
12:39:12 <mod|alpha> Herkamire: yes
12:40:16 --- join: Serg (~knoppix@193.201.231.126) joined #forth
12:42:55 <mod|alpha> and no. can make simple things complex, but also complex things simple. anyway rdf != xml
12:43:51 <Herkamire> I just read that rdf was implemented in xml
12:45:57 <mod|alpha> well, yes, ALSO available in xml.
12:48:12 <mod|alpha> a graph can also express tables and trees. other way round it's not that easy
12:49:39 <mod|alpha> but reading rdf as rdf/xml instead of rdf/ntriples makes you blind for the essential most of the times..
12:51:53 <mod|alpha> w/ sierpiensky's fractal you have a good picture for the power of ntriples way of data assembly
12:52:27 --- quit: I440r ("Leaving")
13:13:12 <Herkamire> sierpiensky's triangle?
13:13:27 <Herkamire> what's a good url for rdf that's not xml?
13:15:09 <mod|alpha> sec
13:16:39 <mod|alpha> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-testcases/#ntriples
13:17:33 <mod|alpha> that's canonical
13:17:56 <mod|alpha> http://www.betaversion.org/~stefano/linotype/news/46/
13:19:15 <mod|alpha> that's somebody w/ a sharp eye upon "xml crap"
13:19:25 --- join: I440r (~mark4@adsl-64-219-100-33.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth
13:20:36 <mod|alpha> well, yes, most of it IS crap. money for nothing type of
13:23:04 <mod|alpha> http://www.semanticbible.com/blogos/stories/semanticBible/OwlNTNames.html
13:23:46 <mod|alpha> morphology would be interesting there. at least partly
13:24:26 <mod|alpha> http://www.agfa.com/w3c/euler/
13:24:50 <mod|alpha> that's the point where it get's interesting
13:25:39 <Herkamire> what's with the . at the end?
13:26:09 <mod|alpha> ?
13:26:19 <mod|alpha> where? what?
13:31:08 <Herkamire> the ascii rdf syntax at http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-testcases/#ntriples says you have to have a period after your 3tuples
13:32:15 <mod|alpha> ok ic. well, for getting a picture you can simply omit that.
13:33:50 --- join: mod|alpha` (~test123@pD9EE1AF0.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth
13:45:02 --- quit: Serg ("Leaving")
13:50:30 --- quit: I440r ("Leaving")
13:51:30 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth
13:52:24 --- quit: mod|alpha (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
13:57:09 --- nick: mod|alpha` -> mod|alpha
14:03:58 --- join: madwork_ (~madgarden@derby.metrics.com) joined #forth
14:08:21 --- join: lalalim_ (~lalalim@p508AA879.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth
14:12:30 --- join: ianp (ian@inpuj.net) joined #forth
14:20:29 --- quit: lalalim (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
14:24:10 --- quit: proteusguy ("Leaving")
15:02:02 <qFox> http://members.home.nl/qfox/forth.html
15:02:22 <qFox> in case anyone cares.. :)
15:05:20 --- quit: fridge ("Leaving")
15:07:53 <qFox> its kind of frustrating. there's a whole set of idea's floating thru my mind of things to code, and i'm not sure where to start, on top of that i have to study for my exams or i'll be in deep shit
15:08:58 <qFox> and this stuff is sooooo boring. i dont understand what this economics shit has got to do with math, or why its even included
15:09:45 <qFox> i dont mind math, but i dislike economics, and these are "plain" formulas
15:11:54 --- quit: Robert (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
15:20:52 --- quit: madwork_ ("whee!")
15:42:14 --- join: Sonarman (~matt@adsl-64-171-255-87.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth
15:59:12 --- quit: qFox ("this is mirc's last attempt of communication...")
16:03:31 --- join: qFox (C00K13S@cp12172-a.roose1.nb.home.nl) joined #forth
16:34:36 --- quit: warpzero ("Tried to warn you about Chino and Daddy Gee, but I can't seem to get to you through the U.S. Mail.")
16:34:48 --- join: I440r (~mark4@adsl-64-219-100-33.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth
16:37:34 --- join: blockhead (default@dialin-236-tnt.nyc.bestweb.net) joined #forth
16:43:11 --- quit: I440r ("back to windowmaker")
16:47:27 --- join: I440r (~mark4@adsl-64-219-100-33.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth
16:55:04 <Herkamire> qFox: use <p> tags :)
17:02:15 <qFox> this was too much work for a document probably nobody cares about in the first place :)
17:05:12 <qFox> why is debug suddenly telling me A is write protected :s
17:05:54 --- quit: qFox ("this is mirc's last attempt of communication...")
17:09:52 --- join: qFox (C00K13S@cp12172-a.roose1.nb.home.nl) joined #forth
17:10:06 <qFox> the hell...
17:10:08 <qFox> trying to write a comfile to the bootsectors of a floppy with dos debug
17:10:48 <qFox> it worked before, and suddenly, with the exact same command, it tells me that the floppy is write protected :s
17:12:56 * blockhead didn't know you could do that with debug  :o
17:15:17 <qFox> well you can
17:15:19 <qFox> ... or could
17:15:19 <qFox> :p
17:15:23 <qFox> very strange
17:15:35 <qFox> for no appearant reason its now write protected >.<
17:16:19 <blockhead> qFox: are you in "real" dos or runnign a command prompt within windows?
17:16:24 <qFox> windows
17:16:32 <qFox> but it worked 5 minutes before
17:16:38 <blockhead> boot in real dos and try it
17:16:49 <blockhead> windows gets in the way of hardware things
17:16:50 <qFox> for one, i dont have a real dos
17:16:54 <blockhead> randomly
17:17:01 <qFox> for two, it worked 5 minutes ago >:(
17:17:28 <qFox> hate.
17:17:33 <blockhead> windows adds a random element to that sort of thing  :)
17:18:16 <blockhead> eject the disk and put it back in.  might help
17:18:20 <qFox> nop
17:18:29 <blockhead> reboot windows
17:18:40 <qFox> nope (note me quiting and joining)
17:18:41 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@66-91-242-80.san.rr.com) joined #forth
17:18:50 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja
17:18:57 <blockhead> ohhh!  didnt' realize
17:19:01 <qFox> :)
17:19:18 <blockhead> format the disk from windows again, then try it?
17:19:48 <kc5tja> 110 degrees F today in Kearny Mesa, San Diego.
17:19:49 <qFox> http://www.geocities.com/thestarman3/asm/debug/debug.htm#W
17:20:00 <kc5tja> For those who prefer metric, that's a smidgen over 50C.
17:20:06 <blockhead> better still: d/l a windows-based raw disk editor
17:20:33 <blockhead> bleh.  too hot
17:20:53 <kc5tja> Oops, 43 C -- sorry.
17:21:02 <qFox> 43 :|
17:21:11 <kc5tja> qFox: Beat you to it.
17:21:15 <qFox> no
17:21:17 <qFox> that was
17:21:20 <qFox> a WTF?
17:21:42 <qFox> its cold here :(
17:21:51 <qFox> partially due to it being 2:20 am
17:21:52 <qFox> :p
17:22:01 <kc5tja> qFox: Well, remember, I live in San Diego, CA, which is a well irrigated desert.
17:22:05 <blockhead> qFox: cool link!  now i cna h4x0r my hard disk!  ;D
17:22:16 <qFox> yar my aunt lived there, nice climate :)
17:22:34 <qFox> blockhead :p
17:22:50 <qFox> get ready to loose all data ;)
17:24:03 --- quit: tathi ("leaving")
17:25:35 <qFox> i wonder if i just fubared my drive 
17:25:40 <qFox> that would be leet
17:26:03 <kc5tja> One more reasons to love block storage -- nothing to fubar.  :D
17:26:10 <kc5tja> Except program source, but I digress.
17:26:14 <blockhead> maybe you fubared that disk.
17:26:15 <qFox> well
17:26:21 <qFox> no it doesnt work on any disk
17:26:37 <qFox> kc5tja> one moment i can perfectly write a .com file to the bootsector of a floppy disk
17:26:47 <qFox> and the next it tells me the disk (any) is write protected
17:26:53 <qFox> reboot helps not
17:26:59 <qFox> different disk helps not
17:27:03 <kc5tja> ???
17:27:08 <qFox> exactly :p
17:27:11 <kc5tja> That shouldn't ever happen, even *IF* you write the boot-sector.
17:27:16 <kc5tja> What program are you using to write the sector?
17:27:19 <qFox> debug
17:27:22 <qFox> dos debug
17:27:28 <blockhead> try a cold boot (as in, shut down then turn machine off)
17:27:33 <qFox> wra
17:27:42 <qFox> fine
17:27:46 <kc5tja> Reformat the disk, and try again.
17:27:57 <qFox> kc5tja> a new disk responds the same
17:27:58 <kc5tja> 'cos that should *never* happen.
17:28:02 <qFox> well duh
17:28:02 <qFox> :)
17:28:06 <qFox> brb
17:28:10 <qFox> i hope..\
17:28:12 <kc5tja> I'm wondering if you somehow fubared the *drive*.
17:28:22 <qFox> we'll see
17:28:24 <qFox> if you dont see me back
17:28:26 <qFox> :)
17:28:37 --- quit: qFox ("this is mirc's last attempt of communication...")
17:29:13 * blockhead has trouble with the idea that just a W command in debug will break the floppy drive hardware
17:29:26 <blockhead> bu then again, you never know ... :o
17:30:09 <kc5tja> I also have a great deal of difficulty accepting that.
17:30:11 --- join: qFox (C00K13S@cp12172-a.roose1.nb.home.nl) joined #forth
17:30:23 <blockhead> qFox: status?
17:30:28 <qFox> windows boots ;)
17:30:32 <kc5tja> But the fact is, if NO floppy, write protected or not, responds correctly to a debug W command, then there can be few other alternatives.
17:30:44 <qFox> there can?
17:30:54 <blockhead> there are programs for writing floppy images
17:31:20 <qFox> D:\nasm>debug boot.com
17:31:20 <qFox> -w100 0 0 1
17:31:20 <qFox> Station A is tegen schrijven beveiligd, kan gegevens niet schrijven
17:31:20 <qFox> -q
17:31:29 <qFox> hate.
17:31:43 <kc5tja> I don't understand what that is trying to say.
17:31:54 <qFox> mind you, this worked about 10 minutes ago
17:32:03 <qFox> blablabla A is write protected
17:32:21 <qFox> the error you get when you put that gap up
17:32:25 <qFox> on the floppy
17:32:27 <qFox> except, its not
17:32:36 * qFox tests windows
17:33:00 <qFox> euhr
17:33:05 <qFox> windows ... cant either?
17:33:13 <kc5tja> Use a program like RAWRITE.EXE to see if the same thing happens.
17:33:20 --- join: warpzero (~warpzero@dsl.142.mt.onewest.net) joined #forth
17:33:22 <qFox> dont tell me debug can actually fuck up floppy drive hardware?
17:33:28 <kc5tja> Are you using the command-line *in* Windows, or are you in DOS mode?
17:33:32 <qFox> win
17:33:36 <blockhead> :)
17:33:38 <kc5tja> Try it in DOS-mode.
17:33:43 <blockhead> :)
17:33:43 * qFox sigh
17:33:51 <qFox> brb... again... hopefully..
17:34:01 --- quit: qFox (Client Quit)
17:36:53 --- join: qFox (C00K13S@cp12172-a.roose1.nb.home.nl) joined #forth
17:37:14 <qFox> muh, it works now.... no luck in dos, my dos bootflop didnt recognize debug :p
17:37:19 <qFox> but it seems to work in windows again
17:37:22 <qFox> for some reason
17:37:56 <blockhead> isn't windows great?
17:37:58 <qFox> but is there a software switch that tells the OS either a floppy is write protected or not?
17:38:07 <kc5tja> Actually, it might be a characteristic of the floppy controller.
17:38:18 <qFox> because this new floppy, once written, now responds the same
17:38:34 <kc5tja> The "disk change" signal is used to let Windows, DOS, or even Linux know when to invalidate its floppy disk caches.
17:38:47 <qFox> hm
17:38:51 * qFox formats
17:39:06 <kc5tja> If the floppy doesn't properly generate a "disk change" signal, then Windows or whatever OS *never* knows to invalidate its internal cache, even if you change disks.
17:39:10 * qFox does not format.
17:39:42 <qFox> well. i guess that i now discovered a fast way to effectively ruin a floppydrive
17:39:44 <kc5tja> Now you know why I refuse to put a floppy drive in the Kestrel.  :)
17:39:52 <qFox> hehe
17:40:02 <kc5tja> qFox: No, what happened was just plain weirdness.  DEBUG can't destroy a floppy drive.
17:40:09 <qFox> well
17:40:12 <qFox> its unreadable
17:40:16 <qFox> its unformattable
17:40:20 <qFox> and it hates me
17:40:21 <kc5tja> Floppies are unreliable.
17:40:30 <kc5tja> Modern floppies suck ass.
17:40:37 <kc5tja> They are a HUGE waste of money.
17:40:40 <qFox> well
17:40:49 <qFox> these floppies were marked "win 3.11 disk 11"
17:40:54 <qFox> so i dont think they're that new :p
17:41:21 <kc5tja> Doesn't matter.
17:41:30 <kc5tja> Here's the problem
17:41:42 <kc5tja> Old disks used now-a-days suffers from old age and general wear and tear.
17:41:53 <kc5tja> Modern disks just plain don't have any quality.
17:42:27 <qFox> well. whatever he cant do, he did manage to make the disks unusable for me now.... where-as he reads other floppies normally, he refuses to read those written floppies... 
17:42:33 <qFox> format, or w/e
17:42:49 <qFox> ohwell, win3.11 was like 15 flops? :P
17:45:56 <qFox> man... the things you find when looking thru a very old floppy disk box
17:46:01 <qFox> wolf3d
17:46:03 <qFox> :p
17:46:17 <qFox> keen
17:46:29 <blockhead> that was a fun game  :)
17:47:59 <qFox> ohwell. the code worked. it booted and printed ====
17:48:20 <qFox> using ints, but nevertheless it worked
17:48:20 <qFox> :)
17:48:54 <qFox> kc5tja> i'm going to attempt to port my code to run on x86
17:49:07 <qFox> http://members.home.nl/qfox/forth.html is the source btw
17:49:10 <qFox> for a p24
17:49:39 <qFox> first draft... 
17:49:58 <kc5tja> Port what code to the x86?  Your P24 emulator?
17:50:08 <qFox> no, the bootcode for it
17:50:44 <qFox> the basics, like the diagram yesterday, are quite easy to port i think
17:51:13 <qFox> especially since the p24 already uses a limited set of instructions
17:51:57 <qFox> except... i havent checked one thing... how many stacks does the x86 have? :\
17:52:17 <qFox> i know at least one, but i cant remember
17:52:41 <kc5tja> It has only one.
17:52:54 <qFox> oh.
17:53:07 <kc5tja> You can emulate others in software though (obviously).
17:53:46 <blockhead> :)
17:54:05 * blockhead had to do that for my forth. 
17:55:01 <qFox> hm hm 
17:55:39 <kc5tja> You could always code for the PowerPC, which doesn't have *any* stacks in hardware.  :D
17:55:50 <qFox> that doesnt really help me you know :)
17:56:14 <kc5tja> Well, the ESP register is the hardware stack pointer.
17:56:17 * qFox remembers. its a CHALLANGE, not a problem.
17:56:24 <kc5tja> So you obviously have to use another register for the data stack pointer.
17:56:42 <blockhead> faking stacks in assembler is not that bad.  I was able to figure out and I'm a blockhead
17:56:46 <blockhead> :)
17:56:51 <qFox> hehe
17:57:15 <qFox> kc5tja> do you know how many items the stack is?
17:57:16 * kc5tja can just see the seminal book in a new line of highly popular books: Forth System Implementation for Blockheads!
17:57:26 <qFox> hehe
17:57:30 <blockhead> :D
17:57:55 <qFox> if the stack is big enough, cant i just split it? :)
17:57:56 <kc5tja> qFox: x86 uses a memory-resident stack.  If you have 4.2GB of RAM, you can use up to 4.2GB of RAM to store your stack.  (Obviously, your stack competes for space with your code and data)
17:58:09 <qFox> oh. heh
17:58:24 <kc5tja> The stack is nothing special.  It's just a region of memory.
17:58:37 <qFox> 4.2 gig of stack data is quite inefficient 
17:58:39 <qFox> but anyways
17:58:46 <qFox> hm yes
17:58:55 <kc5tja> Depends on what you're doing.
17:59:16 <qFox> but i have to switch to a different assembly set, and syntax
17:59:21 <kc5tja> I've learned to NEVER make a judgement on a computer programming technique.
17:59:30 <qFox> been a while, and the p24 is VERY simplistic
17:59:46 <kc5tja> Yes, x86 is **VERY** much more complicated compared to P24.
17:59:50 <qFox> hell ye
18:00:06 <qFox> i just figured that my mini assembler will be screwed as well :(
18:00:19 <qFox> hm i'll give it some thought :)
18:00:42 <qFox> else i'll just wait till boombox finishes something i can use :p
18:03:01 <kc5tja> Finishes what?
18:03:47 <kc5tja> I'm currently restructuring some things in my life and dealing with my expenses.
18:03:55 <kc5tja> Once those are done, I'll be devoting more time to the Kestrel.
18:04:23 <kc5tja> Right now, interestingly enough, my priority is my solar oven, and once that's done, to start growing some veggies.
18:07:41 <qFox> i dunno, he's buying something off ebay, a programmable chip or something. thats what he needed xilinx for
18:12:03 <kc5tja> Well, I apologize for taking so long.
18:12:09 <qFox> its ok
18:12:12 <kc5tja> But my delays are entirely out of my control.
18:12:24 <qFox> i should be spending more time on studying anyways
18:21:38 --- join: Robert (~snofs@c-325a71d5.17-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) joined #forth
18:22:26 <qFox> ohwell. snooker is over for a while now. and i'm kinda done with my create a bootcode and p24 emu project
18:22:38 <qFox> since i dont feel like creating a whole forth system at 140hz :\
18:22:59 <qFox> so i guess my concentration will be better for a while :p
18:28:45 <kc5tja> Heheh
18:29:10 <kc5tja> Of course, you could always try to implement a P24 emulator in, say, C, or assembly language or whatever (probably C to start off with).
18:29:19 <kc5tja> Anyway, I have to work on my oven for a bit.
18:29:29 <kc5tja> bbiaf
18:47:29 --- quit: lalalim_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
18:47:45 --- join: lalalim (~lalalim@p508AA879.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth
18:52:49 --- quit: qFox ("this is mirc's last attempt of communication...")
19:03:18 <madgarden> hi, qFox
19:03:25 <madgarden> GAH
19:03:45 <madgarden> hi, everyone
19:04:09 <blockhead> yo  :)
19:04:15 <kc5tja> re madgarden 
19:04:23 <madgarden> How goes it?
19:04:35 <kc5tja> Finally getting some grips on my financial situation.
19:04:48 <kc5tja> It is looking like I won't have to move back after all, but bbboooyyy did it sure come close.  :/
19:04:50 <madgarden> kc5tja, why do you say "re". Are you replying, regarding?
19:05:00 <kc5tja> Re-specting.
19:05:09 <madgarden> kc5tja, smooth shave, eh?
19:05:21 <madgarden> Well congrats on squeaking by!
19:05:28 <kc5tja> "Fine...fine...a little tender!  But fine!"
19:05:31 <madgarden> Hehe
19:05:37 <madgarden> I've been in a few tight spots myself.
19:05:42 <kc5tja> I had to make a command decision to drop out of school entirely.
19:05:49 <kc5tja> And I am working full-time at INO.
19:05:49 <madgarden> Nice to have the credit cart when rent is due. :-/
19:05:56 <kc5tja> Well, will be as of next week (according to manager)
19:06:35 <Herkamire> is there any linux software to play windows media player streams? something.asx
19:06:40 <madgarden> kc5tja, well, you're a very smart guy, I'm sure you can pick up your studies again anytime.
19:06:52 <madgarden> (if you even needed to!)
19:07:02 <kc5tja> Herkamire: If you have an x86 box, you could somehow configure Plugger to work with mplayer, but otherwise, no.
19:07:51 <madgarden> Imagine, how the world would be a different place, if they had called it a "brook" instead of a "stream."
19:08:08 <madgarden> Or, a "creek".
19:08:09 <Herkamire> links to .asf
19:08:31 <madgarden> Creeking audio player.
19:08:41 <kc5tja> Good grief, I can't stop listening to Beatles "Rain."  This is just such a PHENOMINALLY good song, technically, content-wise, and recording.
19:09:11 <madgarden> I've never heard the tune, but thanks for putting "Yellow Submarine" in my head. :-(
19:09:26 <Herkamire> rrr that sucks
19:10:07 * madgarden repairs damage by streaming Groove Salad from SomaFM.
19:10:08 <kc5tja> http://music.northwestern.edu/classes/beatles/projects/rain/  -- This has an 8-bit, mono recording of it, in its entirety (which is plenty good enough)
19:10:32 <madgarden> That reminds me, a burned a CD of C64 remixes this morning for my drive to work. 
19:10:35 <kc5tja> It's apparently the Beatles' first burn-out piece.
19:11:09 <blockhead> 'nn all
19:11:19 --- quit: blockhead (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
19:11:54 <kc5tja> Maybe I'll try to learn the guitar-work on this song.
19:12:07 <kc5tja> It seems simple enough -- no chords for most of the song.
19:13:07 <madgarden> Not a Beatles fan, but Rain sounds good.
19:14:40 <kc5tja> Apparently, it is a very, very rare song.
19:14:54 <madgarden> Huh! Good thing for the net, then.
19:15:28 <kc5tja> Yeah, no kidding.
19:15:44 <madgarden> Would PAD be an appropriate place to concatenate strings to?
19:16:14 <kc5tja> madgarden: Sounds good to me, as long as you move the string to its final location after you're done (so that words like NUMBER and other words that use PAD don't overwrite your string)
19:16:27 <kc5tja> Unless, of course, you just don't care about it after using it right away.
19:16:56 <madgarden> Yea, I guess it depends. Might as well just make CAT work with a destination address.
19:18:44 <madgarden> I was also thinking about formatted printing, a la printf. Should be pretty simple do to something like:
19:18:44 <madgarden> 10 20 MYSTRING char 42 PRINTF" x: %d, y: %d, name: %s, asterisk--> %c
19:18:50 <madgarden> \n"
19:19:05 <madgarden> damn ENTER is always too close to the keys I want to use. :-/
19:19:57 * kc5tja nods
19:20:12 <madgarden> char *
19:20:16 <madgarden> is what I meant.
19:20:17 <madgarden> Blah.
19:20:28 <madgarden> I haven't played with Forth much lately, been rather occupied with work!
19:20:41 <madgarden> They're keeping me busy, which seems to work quite well for me as an INTP.
19:21:18 <madgarden> It's SO much easier to focus on work when there are specific tasks to tackle, such as a prioritized list of bugs to fix.
19:25:16 * madgarden wishes that Firefox allowed him to use file:// links from within his local wiki. :-(
19:34:42 * kc5tja can't even focus on work.
19:34:47 <kc5tja> Unless it is menial.
19:35:26 <madgarden> It helps a lot when you have status meetings fairly regularly. Keeps up a fast pace, and I actually like that.
20:12:32 <kc5tja> Oh, you'd LOVE extreme programming then.  :0
20:12:55 <kc5tja> Oh, you'd LOVE extreme programming then.  :0
20:12:59 <kc5tja> oops
20:15:24 <madgarden> No doubt.
20:15:27 <madgarden> No doubt.
20:17:38 <madgarden> Actually, I'm sure they employ some XP techniques, however unofficially.
20:18:07 * warpzero waves goodnight to kc5tja
20:18:54 <warpzero> i want my kestrel
20:19:48 <kc5tja> Heya
20:20:08 <kc5tja> Give me $1400 to pay back my debts with, and I'll start working on it immediately.
20:20:39 <kc5tja> Otherwise, all my energy is being devoted towards (a) reducing my expenditures, and (b) increasing my independence on outside influences.
20:21:05 --- quit: lalalim (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
20:21:06 <warpzero> well
20:21:10 <warpzero> i still want my kestrel
20:21:27 <warpzero> i wish i had $1400 to give you
20:21:44 <warpzero> remind me to hire you if i ever have a successful company
20:24:32 <kc5tja> thanks.  :)
20:34:40 <kc5tja> Dang, figuring the guitar riffs backing Rain is hard.  Just as soon as I think I have something, I hear some other little detail that I've missed.
20:34:46 <kc5tja> But it's fun to play along with.
21:17:28 --- join: lalalim (~lalalim@p508AA45C.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth
21:41:10 --- quit: cmeme (Dead socket)
21:41:17 --- quit: lalalim (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
21:41:38 --- join: cmeme (~cmeme@216.184.11.30.unused.swcp.com) joined #forth
22:30:52 --- join: Serg (~knoppix@193.201.231.126) joined #forth
22:31:07 <Serg> hi !
22:31:26 <kc5tja> Hello
22:31:44 <Serg> how's the box going on ?
22:32:02 <kc5tja> It's not at the moment.
22:32:05 <Serg> it looks really pretty on photos ;)
22:32:11 <kc5tja> I won't be able to work on it for at least another two months.
22:32:24 <kc5tja> That is not the ForthBox, nor is it even close to resembling my room.
22:32:27 <Serg> oops ;) money trubble ?
22:32:30 <kc5tja> Yes.
22:33:07 <kc5tja> I hope nothing serious comes up in the next 30 to 40 days or so, or else I'll have to move back home to New York state and live with my parents.
22:33:38 <Serg> living w/ anyone suxx, especially parents 
22:33:56 <kc5tja> I've been living with someone for the last 29 years of my life.
22:34:08 <kc5tja> My parents are very understanding and supportive.
22:34:14 <kc5tja> It's my grandparents who don't have a clue.
22:34:44 <Serg> u lucky !
22:36:12 --- quit: Sonarman ("leaving")
22:37:11 <Serg> Robert gonnabe on air, u know ?
22:37:42 <Serg> his DC chokobox is nice ;)
22:38:29 <kc5tja> He's already on the air.
22:39:55 <Serg> any reasonable far QSO ? my king-kong-RAT-ulations ;)))
22:41:08 <Serg> sadly, i got no space for workshop in my 13m^2 matchbox ;(
22:41:12 * kc5tja made it from California to Australia not too long ago.
22:41:25 <kc5tja> My first HF contact since I was in the military, man, years ago.
22:41:30 <kc5tja> Almost a decade!
22:41:48 <kc5tja> 13 square meter?
22:41:50 <Serg> wow !
22:42:10 <Serg> 13 sqare meter w/ mother in a rooming house ;(
22:43:02 <Serg> no one aruond working fair - welfare, frauds, whores
22:44:42 <Serg> HF = 3 to 30 MHz ?
22:59:42 <kc5tja> Ye
22:59:43 <kc5tja> Yes
23:00:29 <Serg> yeah, short waves are a real magic
23:01:15 <Serg> but here i have strong QRN from trash cheap devices around
23:03:20 <Serg> i recall big tubed RX on a stool and me running from tuning to volume - i was little and my hands did not span so wide comfortably ;))
23:04:44 <Serg> air was clear as maiden tear, coz folks could rarely afford any QRN source at soviet time
23:04:55 * kc5tja nods
23:06:03 <Serg> now it's dead - seems like electrolytic capacitors dryed
23:07:20 <Serg> so i firs heard Beatles and Elvis Presly, heavy oldtimers
23:13:03 * kc5tja nods
23:13:16 * kc5tja is going to get to bed.
23:13:32 <kc5tja> Can't afford gas, so I have to bike into work now, and that means I have to get up earlier than I usually do.
23:13:59 <Serg> wow !
23:14:17 <Serg> i consider outlands anything not reached by subway ;)
23:14:34 <kc5tja> Public transportation in America is all but non-existant.
23:14:55 <kc5tja> And even though there are buses, it's absolutely a certainty that I'd be late for work if I take them.
23:15:08 <Serg> ;((
23:15:27 <Serg> here u late in a car but be in time w/ sub and bug-bus
23:15:39 <Serg> road jams, huge ones
23:16:06 <kc5tja> Invariably, one of the nicest things about a socialist society is its public transportation.
23:16:29 <Serg> and clear air ;) total powerty
23:16:36 <kc5tja> They can't get much bigger than here in California.  Especially in Los Angeles.  8 to 10-lane wide freeways, for miles, one big parking lot.
23:16:53 <Serg> total poVerty
23:17:12 <Serg> 8-10 both or either way ?
23:17:56 <kc5tja> At its widest point, the 405 freeway has seven lanes in a single direction, so that'd be either way.
23:18:20 <kc5tja> I won't even begin to get into the retarded *left-hand exits* that exist on the freeway.  >:(
23:19:25 <Serg> hmm, here streets are damn narrow - city was majorly built in Soviet times, for only lorrys/ambulances/bosses
23:20:05 <kc5tja> Most European cities have very narrow streets, as I recall.
23:20:32 <Serg> is your sity grid or radial planning ?
23:20:39 <kc5tja> Neither.
23:21:00 <Serg> Moscow is radial, so big jam at joints and usually no way around
23:21:04 <Serg> chaotic ?
23:21:10 <kc5tja> It's totally chaotic.
23:21:41 <Serg> i seen NY and LA maps - they seem to be accurate grids
23:21:51 <kc5tja> I can't see how a traffic jam on a radial street system would be any worse than on a grid.
23:22:03 <kc5tja> Most big, big cities are.
23:22:08 <kc5tja> I don't live in a big, big city.
23:22:31 <kc5tja> I live in University City, which while being a largish city, is itself a mere suburb of San Diego (which is both chaotic and grid).
23:22:58 <Serg> hmm...
23:23:10 <Serg> how long folks are usually travel for work ?
23:23:25 <kc5tja> Depends.  Some travel for 10 minutes, others for 60.
23:23:38 <Serg> me ~50min by city transport, never thunk of km
23:23:41 <kc5tja> Commuting 30 miles can take as long as two hours on the freeways during rush hours.
23:24:21 <Serg> breathing exhaust kills lungs harder than smoking ;))
23:24:51 <kc5tja> that doesn't stop America in its quest to eradicate the "Evil Doers."
23:24:56 <kc5tja> Anyway, I'm out.
23:24:58 <kc5tja> I have to get to bed.
23:25:05 <Serg> ok, g'nite !
23:25:09 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK")
23:37:22 <Herkamire> fie on evil doers!
23:37:54 <Serg> piss on that fire ;))
23:38:10 <Herkamire> they will surely quake in their booties when they here about all this new restrictive legislation
23:38:27 <Serg> ??
23:40:07 <Herkamire> I'm not to happy with my government right now
23:40:43 <Serg> so what yet another wrong they did ?
23:56:55 <mod|alpha> Herkamire: what would be a solution in your eyes?
23:57:20 <Herkamire> less government
23:58:15 <mod|alpha> Herkamire: have you ever been at yale?
23:58:29 <Herkamire> no
23:59:23 <mod|alpha> Herkamire: do you know ppl from yale?
23:59:44 <Herkamire> don't think so
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/04.05.03