00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.04.12 00:18:06 Serg: city of lost children 01:02:14 --- join: madgarden_ (~madgarden@Kitchener-HSE-ppp3576712.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 01:02:41 --- quit: madgarden (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 01:35:47 --- join: daved (~dave@adsl-152-74.37-151.net24.it) joined #forth 01:35:52 hi 01:36:16 any 4th programmer here? 01:41:15 about 18 01:45:03 gulp! too many :) 01:45:14 i am installing ficl-devel in a freebsd box 01:45:45 i have to write a simple parser for freebsd boot loader 01:45:56 i.e. FreeBSD XXX loader prompt# 01:46:33 accepting tokens like "option1=value1 option2=value2" and so on 01:46:39 where could i find tutorials? 01:49:38 i think i found what i was searching for 01:49:42 Forth_Primer.pdf 01:51:55 http://www.forthfreak.net/wiki/index.cgi?ForthTutorials 01:51:59 has some more tutorials 01:53:50 thanks 01:53:53 i'm using ficl 01:57:17 ficl seems not supporting cmove 02:19:16 --- join: qFox (C00K13S@cp12172-a.roose1.nb.home.nl) joined #forth 02:35:08 i don't know how to make ficl wait for keyboard input 02:35:17 i tried with: 02:35:20 ." FreeBSD 1.0.1 loader prompt # " refill 02:35:21 drop cr 02:35:34 but ficl said: 02:35:39 loading mine.4th 02:35:39 FreeBSD 1.0.1 loader prompt # 02:35:40 ok> 02:57:58 any ideas? 03:12:40 thanks for helping me :) 03:12:40 bye 03:12:42 --- part: daved left #forth 07:16:19 --- join: networm (~networm@L0656P28.dipool.highway.telekom.at) joined #forth 07:16:48 hi 07:29:32 --- join: hovil (~hovil@CommSecureAustPtyLtd.sb1.optus.net.au) joined #forth 08:20:47 --- join: SDO (SDO@chcgil2-ar7-4-34-132-204.chcgil2.dsl-verizon.net) joined #forth 08:36:34 --- join: Herkamire (stjohns@h000094d30ba2.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 08:43:44 hm - when I add a vocabulary.. how can i remove it again? 08:43:53 VOCABULARY TEST 08:43:59 TEST DEFINITIONS 08:44:05 : GOAWAY ; 08:44:15 how can i make GOAWAY be undefined again? 08:55:04 cant you forget? 09:08:02 forget GOAWAY 09:08:03 ??? 09:09:02 but there are other words in the vocabulary 09:09:14 so? 09:09:27 forget should only forget goaway, not the rest.. 09:09:30 i want them all to be not found. if i do FORTH, then it still finds them 09:09:35 oh 09:09:42 dunno 09:09:50 yes, GOAWAY was just an example 09:10:03 for every word you create, create a counter word that forgets it? 09:10:05 or something :) 09:10:17 hm 09:10:22 i don't really need it, was just wondering 09:10:31 if that's the easiest solution, then i don't care :) 09:10:39 i suggest you dont care ;) 09:15:45 --- join: imaginator (~gps@georgeps.dsl.xmission.com) joined #forth 09:24:13 networm: there is a word to drop the last vocabulary off the search order 09:24:14 I think 09:25:42 PREVIOUS perhaps? 09:26:02 --- join: wossname (wossname@Toronto-HSE-ppp3699010.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 09:26:29 yes, looks like what i want 09:27:26 : CODE ASSEMBLER ; : END-CODE PREVIOUS ; so that should work 09:28:00 to get a forth to compile my own VM with CODE 09:29:46 somebody help me with data transmission, all this radio stuff is hurting my headcase 09:30:23 Heh 09:30:35 I'm sorry for all the pain I caused you :P 09:30:45 so lets say i give you 80 hz of bandwidth <- does this make sense, first of all 09:31:38 hm sure 09:32:00 although you should wait for the real radio techy ;) 09:32:42 wossname: Eh.. is this leading anywhere? 09:32:48 well, if you have 80 hz of bandwidth, you can only vary your transmission's frequency over this 80 hz, yes? 09:33:12 wtf does the amplitude of your transmission mean in terms of the size of the band 09:33:32 Well, yes. But remember that amplitude modulation creates sidebands 09:34:18 Usually the bandwidth used is specified compared to the carrier or something, and when it's below like.. 60dB down, it's considered "nothing". 09:34:29 Maybe that wasn't what you meant? 09:35:13 well... let me restate 09:35:40 the carrier is a continuous signal, like a sine wave, yes 09:36:21 if your signal is occupying a band of frequencies, what does the amplitude of the carrier mean in terms of the entire band 09:36:35 hell, if i gave you a extremely thin band, what would the amplitude mean 09:37:02 That means you can't vary the amplitude very quickly, basically. 09:37:32 but what /is/ the amplitude, when it's spread over several frequencies 09:37:37 If you vary the amplitude with a frequency of x Hz, your signal will occupy x*2 Hz of bandwidth. 09:38:02 they are necessarily related, ok 09:38:26 Why are you asking this? 09:38:43 if i split a carrier signal that occupies 80 hz into subbands of 20 hz apiece, what would these subbands look like 09:39:08 What are you trying to do here? 09:39:19 the network book discusses methods of modulating frequency and amplitude of signals to transmit data 09:39:34 OK... 09:39:41 but i cannot understand what the amplitude of the carrier means 09:40:02 it is driving me mad! 09:40:14 Hehe 09:40:34 let me ask, how would you create variations in the amplitude of a carrier 09:40:39 Check the ARRL handbook 09:40:45 ARRL? 09:41:02 Yeah, American Radio Relay League or something 09:41:06 Ham people 09:41:29 That's amplitude modulation. You mix the carrier with a low-frequency signal containing your information. 09:41:31 at the simplest, it's just "carrier is there - 1, carrier is not there - 0" amplitude modulation, yes? please tell me this much is correct 09:42:58 he;lp 09:43:00 Yep 09:43:06 That's a form of amplitude modulation. 09:43:31 is it just a matter of more power for higher happy amplitude, less power for lower happy amplitude? 09:43:52 But you have to realize that an instant switch from 0 to 1 or the other way around, creates an infinite number of overtones (i.e. infinite bandwidth) 09:44:01 Yep 09:44:16 so higher amplitude, higher power, larger bandwidth? 09:44:32 First two are correct. 09:44:36 mmph 09:44:55 The power itself doesn't determine the bandwidth, the _change_ in power does. 09:45:02 ok, i understand this 09:45:32 bandwidth comes in the number of modulations per second (the old (for computers...) term boud) 09:46:50 Well, I was talking about radio communication here. 09:46:55 so it is possible to transmit very high power signals over extremely thin bands? 09:46:58 isnt that the same? 09:47:21 when you're talking about 0 and 1, high and low... bandwidth is defined the same i think 09:47:21 wossname: Yes 09:47:49 wossname: But as soon as you start modulating the carrier, bandwidth increases. 09:47:49 but the thinner the band, the lower the frequency of transmission must be 09:48:12 Thin bandwidth -> low information rate. 09:48:23 The carrier frequency doesn't matter. 09:48:39 i know, i meant the frequency of maxima in the signal 09:49:02 or, oh shi, the height 09:49:07 this is hurting me 09:49:55 so you say that if you instantly switch between 0 to 1 in your signal, you muss up your bandwidth usage 09:50:10 how about shifting the phase of your carrier 09:51:33 come on, just a few more questions, promise :l 09:51:57 hm its been a while since i got this class 09:52:04 but i believe it works with a timer 09:52:18 every bit is x ms long 09:52:36 the receiver knows this timer and interpreters what it receives that way 09:53:01 so if the timer is 10 ms, a 20 ms high signal means 11 09:53:02 etc 09:53:10 but, i dont know if this is the same for radio. 09:53:11 the amplitude of the carrier is the strength of the carrier, yes? 09:53:25 think so yes :) 09:53:38 height of the signal 09:53:47 and you can have extremely powerful signals in extremely thin bands 09:53:58 that i dont know. 09:54:15 i'm not sure what a thin band is 09:54:46 why does varying the amplitude - the strength of the carrier -rapidly, cause the bandwidth usage to increase? 09:54:49 --- join: roliver_ (roliver@roliver.registered) joined #forth 09:55:15 perhaps a protocol that uses paralel sending of bits? 09:55:34 but i dont know, sorry 09:55:57 well, the fancypants data encoding techniques discussed got up to varying amplitude + shifting the phase of the signal to encode more than one bit at once 09:56:23 thanks for answering what you can, i just want to feel understanding of what that means 09:56:51 should wait for kc5tja 09:57:02 he knows this stuff for sure 09:57:16 alright, then i'll ask later. i've gotta go out now 09:57:21 OK, see you.. 09:57:26 later 09:57:29 robert was here this whole time!#!@ 09:57:33 ~ 09:57:36 No 09:57:38 I just came here 09:57:43 And was about to answer 09:57:46 When you said BAIBAI 09:57:46 heh 09:58:23 answer my misconceptions, put it in the log, i'll read it later :l 09:58:36 OK :) 10:02:47 * roliver_ looks for mark manning...anyone seen him lately (or even know him)? 10:03:02 Hmm.. he was here a while ago 10:03:09 Maybe a week or something. 10:03:13 what nick does he go by? 10:03:28 wasnt it m4rk ? 10:03:44 I440r 10:03:52 hmmm he had a second nick 10:03:53 Hmm.. Or maybe not. 10:04:10 he changed to something else the other day, i'm not quite sure though 10:04:53 ok. no biggie...we were working on a contract together in TX recently; just wondering what he was up to 10:04:57 thanks 10:06:13 there are public logs of this chan... somewhere :) 10:06:22 if you've heard him bitching about swiftx lately, that would be the job 10:06:38 lol 10:25:49 --- quit: roliver_ ("leaving") 10:27:30 --- join: roliver (roliver@roliver.registered) joined #forth 10:31:39 --- join: madwork (~madgarden@derby.metrics.com) joined #forth 10:32:06 well, since i'm here a-lurking for mark...i will soon need a simple tcp/udp in forth. any suggestions? proprietary one isn't out of the question. it's to be embedded in a proprietary app, so gpl is out. 10:32:31 of course, an excellent free one would be nice ;-) 10:34:18 --- join: slava (~slava@CPE00096ba44261-CM000e5cdfda14.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 10:36:35 roliver: I know Mark's Forth has one 10:36:52 really? i don't remember him mentioning that. cool! 10:38:15 oh...if that's in isforth, and via system calls, that won't be of much help 10:38:57 i'll have to interrogate him when we tag up 10:41:42 hey 10:42:01 roliver: What is it you want then? 10:42:03 Hi slava 10:42:23 how's code? 10:42:39 * Robert is trying to build a shortwave receiver. 10:43:07 first is an 8051 project with a half-assed udp stack that's getting recoded in forth. no os onboard. 10:43:22 With a little shielding I think it will work fine 10:45:40 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@69.79.24.31) joined #forth 10:46:56 hey proteusguy 10:47:40 howdy slava 10:47:44 what's up? 10:49:37 going to code an A* implementatin today 10:50:03 --- part: imaginator left #forth 11:19:29 What is A*? 11:20:23 path finding 11:27:20 --- join: roxirc (~Mark@209.181.43.190) joined #forth 11:28:25 --- nick: roxirc -> MrReach 11:29:58 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 11:39:33 hmm...27 people...and it's still quiet. :) 11:40:09 hehe 11:42:35 *VERY* quiet 11:50:43 roliver: http://www.mpeltd.demon.co.uk/powernet.htm maybe? 12:01:36 thanks, tathi. pricey...but options are good to have 12:02:04 --- join: I440r (~mark4@204.110.225.254) joined #forth 12:02:12 and there he is 12:02:12 there he is 12:02:14 heh 12:02:17 hi ron :) 12:02:22 greetings, mark 12:02:23 see, its m4rk ;) 12:02:27 ive been in the north of california in the mountains 12:02:36 no internet lol 12:02:42 nice 12:03:00 just finished a contract in southern calif and was visiting my aunt 12:03:22 cool! glad to hear you've been busy. i sure as hell have. 12:03:42 i need to get busy again asap - i dont like not being paid :) 12:03:48 * roliver nods 12:03:50 roliver: yeah...I thought there was a free one around somewhere, but can't find it now. 12:04:24 i need to stop chatting and get busy with the mountain of paper surrounding me. but what's a few more minutes when you're procrastinating? 12:04:40 well im in a flying j at the moment 12:04:45 ive purchased an hour online 12:05:00 but i only just started it :) 12:05:04 ok...that'll keep me under control ;-) 12:05:11 en route home? 12:05:15 besides if thers something worth doing it will still be worth doing tomorrow :) 12:05:20 actually no lol 12:05:31 * roliver opens his verizon wireless bill and suffers a sprained jaw 12:05:31 im driving to walla walla wa 12:06:42 fscking rebates...wife's phone died, so she had to get a new one 12:06:55 The Offspring - Walla Walla 12:06:56 ouch 12:07:06 what's in walla walla wa? work, play, both? 12:07:50 bruce lives there - he was the one that got me the contract in southerin calif 12:08:03 i was thinking he was in dc...gotcha 12:08:03 we were both down there and im gona go vizzit for a cpl of days 12:08:15 cool...say hi for me 12:08:18 sure will 12:08:27 is mrreach alive in here ??? :) 12:09:08 funny - when ever i go somewhere and cant get in here the number of idlers grows :/ 12:09:31 * roliver opens a $0.27 check from citibank 12:09:46 nice! 12:09:51 dont spend it all at once 12:10:47 so are you working on any forth projects ron ? 12:11:06 yes, and you'll hate to hear it 12:11:15 lol 12:11:16 8051 swiftx 12:11:23 * roliver ducks 12:11:27 actually i would take that on :) 12:11:39 you may get a chance to 12:11:43 yea ? 12:11:53 may, that is 12:11:55 where, when and how much ? 12:11:59 :) 12:12:28 next month or so, can be done remotely (although you'll need to visit & sign nda), $$=?? 12:12:46 don't hold your breath, but it should happen 12:12:57 ok 12:12:59 if i get too busy with stemco, i won't be able to do it all in time 12:13:03 if im available im available 12:13:08 exactly 12:13:32 looking for tcp/udp to cram into it...forth, inc. still lacks this 12:14:02 ya - its not easy but it IS possible, 12:14:13 thers that guy on CLF that did an 8051 web server etc 12:14:17 unless leon's been really busy; haven't talked to him in ages 12:14:18 that looked interesting 12:15:00 i've been looking at a TI ref. implementation on the MSP430...written in C, and limited, but if it works more or less as advertised, it would suffice 12:15:15 you could always port it :) 12:15:26 porting C to forth isnt trivial tho 12:15:30 that's the default plan, unless something better comes around 12:15:35 right 12:15:58 i'll probably port it to msp430, then to 8051. the ref. board is cheap enough. 12:16:05 :)s 12:16:38 is it just me or does CLF seem kinda boring these days ? 12:17:18 haven't read it in ages...the signal-to-pr0n ratio's been too low last few times i've looked 12:17:18 heh, since Jeff left, you mean? :P 12:17:28 lol 12:17:34 i dont think he did leave exactly 12:17:45 i think ive seen a few posts from him recently 12:20:16 yeah, seems like he's been a bit less inflammatory lately though. 12:20:42 well they do tend to be insulting but he takes it to heart i think 12:20:58 i sure respect HIS opinions more than i do most of theirs 12:23:22 well, of course 12:24:04 if i disappear its because my hour ran out 12:28:38 mark: do get in touch when you get back from WA. did you get my email? 12:29:02 yea i did :) 12:30:34 ok. the alleged job (not a real job until i get a new P.O.) is in traverse city, mi...if things go, then mayhaps we can go up there, visit, bum around town, and expend ammo on state land 12:31:04 sure 12:31:13 sounds like fun heh 12:31:21 i used to live up there; i have several friends there, and when the snow's not up to your ass, there's a lot of fun things to do 12:31:36 k 12:31:54 btw i have a cell fone now 12:32:01 ill message you the number 12:45:55 --- quit: I440r ("Leaving") 12:54:53 hi all 13:06:41 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 13:12:42 --- quit: ianp ("ERC Version 4.0 $Revision: 1.645 $ (IRC client for Emacs)") 13:31:49 --- quit: networm (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 13:34:35 --- part: roliver left #forth 13:46:37 --- quit: hovil ("Leaving") 13:50:31 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 13:52:37 --- join: ianp (ian@inpuj.net) joined #forth 14:17:22 hi ianp 14:17:45 Hi 14:42:19 hi 15:01:58 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@66-91-231-74.san.rr.com) joined #forth 15:02:05 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja 15:44:40 --- quit: qFox ("if at first you dont succeed, quit again") 20:27:18 --- log: started forth/04.04.12 20:27:18 --- join: clog (nef@bespin.org) joined #forth 20:27:18 --- topic: 'A channel dedicated to the Forth programming language, its implementation, its application, and its philosophy. :UPDATE: Those interested in the up-coming ForthBox Kestrel home computer kit are invited to review the Kestrel's very own Wiki at http://www.falvotech.com/cgi/kestrel | SNEAK PREVIEW IMAGES OF THE FORTHBOX KESTREL! http://www.wsu.edu/~jackdoll/jak/comp/images/comp4.jpg' 20:27:18 --- topic: set by qFox on [Wed Apr 07 04:17:57 2004] 20:27:19 --- names: list (clog proteusguy @kc5tja ianp madwork Herkamire SDO madgarden_ o-- OrngeTide fridge @ChanServ ianp` scope Robert onetom Frek cmeme mur Klaw skylan chandler) 21:11:21 Wow. I love this quote, and closely reflects what I feel about modern, commercial software. "Therefore the logic of the factory model [of software production] most strongly rewards vendors who produce shelfware -- software that is sufficiently well marketed to make sales, but actually useless in practice." 21:37:53 shelfware - nice term 21:38:07 it inhabits mostly the shelf after it's EOLd ;) 21:42:27 heh 21:43:06 It is interesting to see how the ColorForth mailing list has developed its own little bit of open source development. 21:43:12 It's own community of coders. 21:43:22 especially after Chuck Moore released his specific networking code. 21:43:38 I'm hoping to do the same once I release the BoxForth environment for the Kestrel. 21:44:06 hmm, cf mailing list, i must check that out 21:44:28 It's very low traffic; bursty. 21:44:51 But Chuck Moore is a participant (though not always vocal) too, so it's a nice community to be part of. 21:53:59 yeah, it would be nice to read 21:54:07 i'll have to search for the archives sometime 21:54:26 there is so much work to be done, i have so many interests, i wish i made much more use of my time 21:57:13 Yes, I fully agree; I am in precisely the same boat. 21:57:28 That very reason is one of the reasons for open sourcing the Kestrel's design. 21:58:33 hi, just wondering about porting as many forths to BeOS as I can, I remember doing some 13 varieties a few years ago. Lost them to the crashed-hd-gods. Now I want to find sources/distros that are portable, any ideas? 21:59:24 I have done pfe, kforth, pforth, tile-forth, bashforth, until 21:59:32 http://beforth.dyndns.org:8080/ 22:00:04 re SDO 22:00:28 gforth is not on the above list; it's GNU software, so sources are available. 22:00:39 Not sure how easy it is to port though. I've never had a need to try it. 22:11:20 I've been hanging out in the colorforth channel 22:11:41 good people 22:12:02 Herkamire, howdie. 22:12:06 a couple are working on TCP 22:12:14 kc5tja, thanks, I'll get with the gforth port. 22:12:15 rj has made a multitasker 22:12:25 and plans to make virtual terminals 22:12:31 hi SDO :) 22:13:49 Yep. 22:13:52 I like to see this. 22:14:37 Although I'm not active with ColorForth myself, since I can't get it running on my box (no resources to facilitate debugging, and absolutely no hardware specifications are available to me, even if I were so inclined), I'm still very pleased to see the level of interest in CF is actually increasing, albeit slowly. 22:14:55 This is good news for me, where I hope to be an IHV for my own Forth-based kits. 22:15:24 --- join: scope_ (~junk@njd.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth 22:15:48 --- quit: scope (Client Quit) 22:16:28 --- join: I440r (~mark4@198.107.60.98) joined #forth 22:16:35 kc5tja: exactly :) 22:16:39 I can't run cf either 22:16:56 but I'm glad to see a comunity around it 22:17:44 my os will be similar in that: 1) it will not run on the majority of hardware. 2) it will be radically different than any existing system. 22:18:37 I certainly don't have the fame of CM, but there's hope of a comunity around herkforthos 22:19:45 I'm reading "The Magic Caldrin" now, by ESR. 22:20:11 And one of the best business models you can choose to follow is to open source what would otherwise be considered a trade secret, and use it to build *other* markets, rather than cultivate your own. 22:20:36 That way, you develop a lively community around it, and therefore, you end up getting good press, and you can then market your expertise in a whole multitude of other markets. 22:20:54 I'm sure things are more complicated than this in reality, but it is an interesting prospect. 22:47:05 --- quit: I440r ("Leaving") 22:51:30 Cauldron -- I knew I was spelling it wrong. :/ 22:57:44 interesting. 22:58:02 * Herkamire is away sleeping 23:10:22 --- join: onetom_ (~tom@160.114.27.131) joined #forth 23:12:19 --- quit: onetom (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 23:21:44 --- join: I440r (~mark4@198.107.60.98) joined #forth 23:32:14 --- join: warpzero (~warpzero@dsl.142.mt.onewest.net) joined #forth 23:41:16 --- join: Jim7J1AJH (~jwt@usen-221x115x224x2.ap-US01.usen.ad.jp) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/04.04.12