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05:30:18 <qFox> are you, or should you be, able to change the delimiter char that forth treats as whitespace?
05:30:37 <qFox> like normally space (chr 32)
05:30:49 <qFox> for whatever reason... :)
05:30:58 <qFox> or can it be hardcoded?
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07:56:47 <thin> eh you probably can change it pretty easy
07:56:55 <thin> just need to look in the interpreter loop
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08:00:37 <networm> hello
08:00:47 <thin> hi networm
08:00:58 <thin> how goes your spreading?
08:01:33 <networm> spreading?
08:01:53 <thin> yeah worms spread
08:02:00 <thin> especially networms
08:02:21 <networm> ah, heh.
08:02:42 <networm> i'm slowly starting to change my nick.. already have a different one on afternet :)
08:02:54 <thin> awww
08:02:58 <thin> whats the new nick?
08:03:14 <networm> allefant
08:03:23 <thin> what does that mean?
08:03:26 <thin> sounds familiar
08:03:49 <networm> wrong spelling of elephant :)
08:04:17 <networm> i wrote a game using the 'allegro' library years ago, and it was the name of the elephant main character in it
08:05:47 <thin> heh
08:06:01 <thin> so do you code in forth these days?
08:07:31 <networm> currently, i'm only writing a forth
08:07:55 <networm> for a uni project
08:08:36 <thin> waht lang
08:08:52 <networm> C
08:09:14 <thin> heh
08:09:23 <networm> my project looks like this: VM in C, Forth in VM
08:09:40 <networm> the VM is only a single file, with 20 instructions. so not much C in it at all.
08:09:40 <thin> forth is a vm
08:09:50 <thin> 20 forth primitives?
08:10:05 <networm> no, i made another VM layer below forth
08:10:34 <networm> so i can do things like CODE
08:10:44 <networm> this isn't really meant to have high performance
08:11:21 <networm> (and i didn't want to actually look at any real asm)
08:11:35 <thin> programmers who come from a C background have a hard time grokking forth
08:12:02 <thin> they tend to code c-like in forth which is the worst possible way because forth is a totally different paradigm
08:12:26 <thin> forth programs coded c-like don't showcase any of forths advantages and all of its weaknesses :P
08:12:55 <networm> heh
08:12:56 <thin> you do know that forth is already a vm?
08:13:04 <thin> a vm layer seems redundant
08:13:30 <thin> you can still have CODE without a vm layer
08:13:35 <thin> i understnad that its a uni project
08:13:49 <thin> so it's not really supposed to be all that meaningful..
08:13:50 <networm> yes. i wrote another forth before
08:14:17 <networm> in it, i directly coded basic forth words in C
08:14:31 <thin> do you know asm?
08:14:45 <networm> not much
08:14:54 <networm> must be years since i coded some x86 asm
08:15:14 <networm> in the good old DOS days, to get some extra speed out of my game programming
08:16:06 <networm> CODE without a vm layer.. so i would directly insert asm, i see
08:16:21 <networm> then there would be no more need to use any C though
08:16:36 <thin> if i were to code a VM, i'd go with machineforth
08:16:43 <thin> 28 primitives :D
08:16:51 <thin> well.. less than 32
08:16:54 <thin> i forget the number
08:17:18 <thin> i considered coding a machineforth in asm in dos and then coding a regular forth ontop of it
08:17:43 <networm> sounds like what i'm doing (just i use my own VM, and it is in C)
08:17:44 <thin> that way the forth ontop of it would be portable to a forthchip
08:18:08 <networm> hm, i must look at machineforth. i guess, it uses real forth words
08:18:17 <networm> my VM uses just some pseudo-instructions
08:18:20 <thin> yeah check it out, its wonderful :D
08:18:27 <thin> maybe its not too late for you to switch ;)
08:18:50 <thin> i guess ultratechnology.com has the instruction set
08:18:56 <thin> maybe colorforth.com too ?
08:19:09 <thin> some of the stuff is hard to find on ultratech
08:19:28 <thin> its like a maze to get to some of the content
08:19:40 <thin> w/ many deadends :P
08:20:40 <networm> just experiencing that
08:20:53 <networm> clicked like 5 links, and still, no instructions to be seen anywhere :P
08:21:27 <thin> try google 
08:21:49 <thin> perhaps machineforth site:ultratechnology.com
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08:21:59 <networm> i did before.. only found some ML postings mentioning machien forth
08:22:02 <thin> or just look at any of the forthchips
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08:22:13 <thin> like fup21 page
08:22:17 <thin> will have the instruction list
08:22:29 <thin> actually i recall that colorforth's 25x page has an instruction list
08:22:37 <thin> but its not as clear as the ones on UT site
08:22:45 <thin> er
08:22:52 <thin> s/colorforth's/colorforth.com's
08:22:56 <kc5tja> The 25X uses the same instructions as the F21.
08:23:04 <thin> yeah
08:23:20 <thin> the f21 page on UT has a better page showing the instruction set
08:23:47 <thin> thefox the 300 byte original machine forth is nice, but it is just a cross compiler layer for fpc.
08:23:54 <thin> woo, 300 byte :D
08:24:07 <thin> hmm that's a quote by thefox btw if its not clear
08:24:23 <kc5tja> Yeah.  The only thing different about the C18 and the F21 is the bit representation of the instructions are different, because the last 3 bits of the instruction only encodes 8 usable instructions, and so he tried to pick the best set of 8 to be represented in only 3 bits.
08:25:53 <thin> kc5tja: do you happen to know what cpu the canon cat ran on?
08:26:12 <thin> cuz it would be cool to get the canon os for the kestrel ;)
08:26:21 <thin> or THE anyways
08:28:53 <thin> ooooh, hufman decode code builds code trees instead of data trees and executes them..
08:29:21 <thin> now i understand why chuck told me about hufman & code trees when i asked him about doing GA (genetic algorithms) in forth
08:35:45 <kc5tja> 68000
08:36:08 <kc5tja> But I don't see why the choice of CPU even remotely matters.
08:36:22 <kc5tja> Most of the CAT's code is written in high-level Forth anyway.
08:36:55 <qFox> i'm almost done with the p24 emulator :) still have problems with div 
08:36:56 <kc5tja> That being said, I would agree; however, 95% of the people interested in the Kestrel would prefer something like DOS over the CAT's user interface.
08:37:21 <qFox> but other then div, the cpu emulates, seemingly perfect
08:37:26 <kc5tja> Also, the CAT's OS, though written in Forth, certainly won't fit in the ROM I intend on using.
08:37:40 <qFox> kc5tja> could you help me out with the div when you have the time?
08:38:49 <kc5tja> What problem are you having?
08:39:04 <qFox> dont understand it at all
08:39:28 <qFox> i understand what the registers should do, uncertain how to shift, but i cant reproduce a proper div with the examples
08:39:43 <kc5tja> qFox: URL again?
08:40:10 <kc5tja> thin: Huh?  The Huffman decoder in ColorForth is static code; it doesn't generate anything.
08:40:12 <qFox> http://www.eforth.com.tw/academy/sutra/chapter9.htm
08:40:17 <thin> i wonder if its possible to get the CAT os?  
08:40:48 <thin> kc5tja: i'm only quoting thefox, i think he was talking about the jpeg decoder made during iTv times
08:41:01 <kc5tja> thin: It's called THE now-a-days, and while it's possible, I would have to ask Jef about selling it as the OS for the Kestrel.  He supports open source now, but if sold/bundled with something that is sold, he wants a piece of the pie.
08:41:43 <kc5tja> qFox: I can't even find a single reference to "DIV" in the text.  Where are you looking?
08:41:52 <qFox> way below, where the instructions are explained
08:42:09 <qFox> about 4/5th of the page
08:42:14 <thin> hmm, well the CAT code is pretty old, probably needs to be upgraded etc..
08:45:11 <thin> the current THE isn't implemented in forth, but in python.. and its not an OS..
08:45:48 <kc5tja> thin: All the same, he's evolving it into an OS-like entity, as it is his goal to create a whole, all-encompassing envirionment.
08:46:10 <kc5tja> True, it's written in Python, but only for the benefit of the open source community, who pretty universally DON'T know Forth.
08:46:18 <kc5tja> Jef still prefers Forth.
08:47:49 <kc5tja> qFox: OK, so what are you having a problem with?
08:48:13 <thin> actually when i think of THE, i expect it to come with the zoomable ui..  THE combined with the ZUI is what makes it killer imo
08:48:33 <kc5tja> thin: He's going for that too.
08:48:40 <kc5tja> thin: Jef is way ahead of you.
08:48:52 <thin> what do you mean?
08:49:01 <kc5tja> Precisely what I just said: THE is slated to have a ZUI.
08:49:10 <thin> ok good :)
08:49:34 * kc5tja hasn't a clue about how to go about implementing a ZUI in Forth.
08:49:53 <thin> heh, how come?
08:49:54 <kc5tja> It's insanely hard enough in higher level languages with full graphics APIs and whatnot.
08:50:01 <thin> hmm
08:50:14 <kc5tja> Because to realize properly, it requires infinite precision floating point values.
08:50:27 <thin> do you believe the ZUI needs 3d graphics api or can it be done with just a 2d graphics api?
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08:50:40 <kc5tja> It can be done with a 2D API.
08:50:44 <kc5tja> I've seen it done.
08:50:58 <thin> you have? where?
08:51:03 <kc5tja> The problem is nesting within nesting within nesting within ... ... ... ... within nesting within nesting within ... ... ...
08:51:10 <thin> yeah..
08:51:26 <thin> well at some point the nesting is fake
08:51:35 <kc5tja> thin: There is a toolkit in C++ called "Jazz" or some such.  It keeps changing names, but last I checked, they had a downloadable demo.
08:51:37 <qFox> whats zui? different type of gui? or...
08:51:46 <kc5tja> thin: The point is, in a ZUI, *no* nesting is fake.
08:51:52 <thin> like when you zoom into an url and you arrive at a new page
08:52:18 <thin> hmm
08:52:50 <kc5tja> qFox: Zooming User Interface, where things that are logically contained in something else *IS* contained in something else.  Consider a book, which has pages within it, which has text and figures contained within it, etc.  To get to see the finer levels of detail, you just keep zooming into it.
08:52:57 <thin> put the nesting on the stack. .  like save each state on a stack..  i.e. you pop a state off the stack and boom you are back one nest
08:53:32 <kc5tja> thin: No, ZUIs don't work that way.
08:53:35 <qFox> the whole div thing. ok, at init, S = a negative devisor, T-A combo is the number to div, where T is the high number, right?
08:53:44 <kc5tja> It's all based off of relative coordinate systems, and arbitrary scaling factors.
08:53:54 <kc5tja> Hence the need for infinite precision floating point values.
08:54:27 <thin> would that be hard to implement in forth?
08:54:38 <Herkamire> kc5tja: jazz? you mean PAD++?
08:55:13 <kc5tja> Herkamire: Did they change their name *BACK* to PAD++?
08:55:23 <kc5tja> qFox: So far that's what it seems to be.
08:55:42 <Herkamire> kc5tja: I don't know. I was just wondering if that was the same project. it was called pad++ when I looked at it some months ago
08:56:08 <Herkamire> the included examples I found with it (I didn't look all that hard) were ghastly
08:56:11 <qFox> ok, then you first add S to T, if this produces a carry, put the result in T, otherwise leave T like it was.
08:56:57 <qFox> then you shift left once, where does the carry end up? Herkamire thought it was bit A[0]
08:57:18 <kc5tja> It says A[0] in the documentation.
08:57:21 <qFox> the doc says it too
08:57:21 <qFox> yes
08:57:22 <qFox> but
08:57:32 <kc5tja> "Add the S register on the data stack to the T register. If the addition produces a carry place the sum in T, otherwise leave T unchanged.  The T-A register pair is now shifted to the left by one bit.  Carry is shifted into A(0)."
08:57:35 <qFox> then what happens to the most significant bit?
08:57:35 <Herkamire> qFox: it says right in the first paragraph "Carry is shifted into A(0)."
08:57:50 <qFox> is that bit shifted into the carry?
08:58:03 <kc5tja> The left-most significant bit of A?  It's gone forever.
08:58:13 <qFox> hrm
08:58:27 <kc5tja> Well, Ting isn't known for his documentation abilities.
08:58:40 <kc5tja> For example, I love this line: Carry: Changed (I think, I have to check.)
08:58:47 <qFox> yes :p
08:58:54 <kc5tja> What a nice thing to appear in what is supposed to be semi-formal documentation for a new chip.
08:58:58 <Herkamire> no, leftmost of A goes into T. leftmost of T is unspecified. I think it just dissapiers
08:59:22 <kc5tja> No.
08:59:28 <Herkamire> I also think (I'm not sure) that for positif divisors, the leftmost bit in T will never be set
08:59:33 <Herkamire> positive
08:59:44 <kc5tja> "Carry [from addition of S and T] is shifted into A(0)."
08:59:53 <Herkamire> yes
09:00:03 <Herkamire> and "The T-A register pair is now shifted to the left by one bit."
09:00:41 <qFox> T: cxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, he means the underlined bit,
09:00:48 <qFox> c is the carry
09:01:05 <kc5tja> I have the first x bit underlined, not the c.
09:01:05 <qFox> is that bit ever 1?
09:01:23 <Herkamire> I seriously don't think div uses the carry bit from A
09:01:32 <kc5tja> qFox: It will change as the division proceeds.  The value of c will depend on what values are given to the instruction.
09:02:05 <kc5tja> Well, trace through the given code samples, with simple numbers, like dividing 10 by 3 (should give a result of 2, with a remainder of 1).
09:02:06 <qFox> yes c is the carry, i understand that, but that underlined bit, does it ever get 1? this is kind of a try it question i guess
09:02:13 <Herkamire> yesterday we simulated the devision by hand of 10/3 in 4 bit math, and it worked out
09:02:31 <qFox> 10 by 3 is 3 remainder 1, isnt it?
09:02:40 <kc5tja> Well, then that's your answer.  Emulate that process by hand in software, and it should work.
09:02:49 <qFox> we emulated mul
09:02:50 <kc5tja> qFox: Close enough; you get the idea.
09:02:55 <Herkamire> hehe
09:03:58 <kc5tja> DIV appears to be almost exactly like MUL.  The only difference appears to be that you feed it a negative value instead of a positive value for one of the operands.
09:04:22 <Herkamire> and it shifts the other way
09:04:32 <Herkamire> and you only add it if it produces a carry
09:04:35 <qFox> (eating)
09:04:53 <kc5tja> That's a consequence of shifting the other way.
09:05:19 <Herkamire> in MUL you check the low bit of the operand. in DIV you check the carry bit of a sum
09:05:21 <kc5tja> This is almost exactly like the algorithm I got when I described a division routine for the 6502 that used only three zero-page locations.
09:05:36 <kc5tja> Like I said, it's a consequence of shifting the other way. :)
09:05:55 <Herkamire> kinda cool I think
09:05:59 <kc5tja> CRAP!  What the hell is TIHS CRAP!?
09:06:11 <kc5tja> I can't download Icarus Verilog -- "The site is refusing connections."
09:12:40 <thin> kc5tja: url?
09:16:05 <kc5tja> http://www.icarus.com/verilog
09:16:19 <kc5tja> oops
09:16:24 <kc5tja> http://www.icarus.com/eda/verilog
09:17:04 <qFox> works.
09:22:10 <kc5tja> It doesn't work for me.
09:22:18 <kc5tja> Well, the HTTP site does.
09:22:41 <kc5tja> But *downloading*, I get a message saying, "The connection was refused when trying to contact icarus.com."
09:24:09 <thin> yeah i tried ftping to icarus.com and ftp.icarus.com no luck..
09:24:18 <thin> connection refused
09:28:30 <thin> what a pain, they should keep the files on the webserver not the ftp..
09:28:36 <kc5tja> Darn, and I was going to code up a simple UART to test my new 1337 sk1llz.
09:35:41 <thin> heh
09:35:52 <thin> well hopefully there's a copy of the file somewhere else..
09:36:01 <thin> or a mirror
09:36:06 <thin> try an ftpsearch :P 
09:36:26 <thin> ftpsearch used to be better several years ago
09:36:39 <thin> now it sucks..  less warez available etc heh
09:36:56 <qFox> you're just looking at the wrong protocol
09:36:57 <qFox> is all
09:37:44 <kc5tja> qFox: The links are to FTP.
09:38:18 <qFox> [19:36:36] <thin> now it sucks..  less warez available etc heh
09:38:57 <thin> qFox: i used ftpsearch to find warez before, but it doesn't work that well these days
09:39:05 <thin> found like QNX and other warez
09:39:23 <qFox> thats because it all moved on to p2p (and lately bittorrent) type of networks
09:39:50 <qFox> "real" ftp warez is only meant for those who spend quite some time at it ^^
09:40:23 <kc5tja> And for those who risk prosecution because the law can easily target folks that way.
09:40:42 <qFox> phoey, only if you siteop or own a box that gets busted :p
09:41:19 <qFox> about 2 years ago, december 10th had a huge number of busts at once. operation bucaneers or something it was called. heh should've seen the choas 
09:41:36 <kc5tja> GOT IT!
09:41:42 <kc5tja> Got it off of the GEDA site.
09:41:45 <kc5tja> They have a local mirror of it.
09:41:47 <qFox> :)
09:43:28 <thin> i haven't checked out bittorrent yet
09:44:34 <thin> seems like all the good p2p died out and all that's left was crappy ones..  but i haven't kept up to date with the new p2ps
09:44:43 <kc5tja> Now we wait while this thing compiles.
09:45:00 <kc5tja> I never liked the P2P networks.
09:45:20 <thin> my favorite one was CuteMX
09:45:25 <kc5tja> For one thing, they all still depend on a client/server architecture to function.  (Limitation imposed by using TCP/IP)
09:45:29 <thin> it was the best one during its short life
09:45:39 <kc5tja> The best P2P net I've used was The Circle.
09:45:43 <kc5tja> That was a *great* P2P network.
09:45:49 <thin> was?
09:45:53 <qFox> bittorrent is marching up (never used any of the p2p networks though)
09:46:04 <qFox> since it doesnt run on a central server
09:46:05 <kc5tja> No anonyminity though, so no warez.
09:46:16 <thin> heh
09:46:25 <thin> what's the point of p2p if there's no anonymity?
09:46:37 <kc5tja> thin: The Circle still does exist, and is still being developed.  But I have not used it in years and years.
09:46:44 <qFox> thin> sexy pictures of the dog!
09:46:52 <kc5tja> thin: Ease of finding files and resources, redundancy in the face of errors, etc.
09:47:19 <kc5tja> It's a fact: *every* network that has been proven to be the easiest to use have been P2P networks.
09:48:47 <qFox> hm... would it be a major problem if my script wont write a jump to the first memmory location, which is incidentally the same location where the cpu reads its first instructions from?
09:48:47 <kc5tja> OK, C++ is taking its grand old sweet time compiling these sources.  That can mean only one thing: they're using TEMPLATES.
09:49:10 <thin> i recently checked out freenet, kind of a cool idea, extremely anonymous, lets you browse around in the webbrowser..
09:49:18 <thin> but it doesn't seem like that many people are using it
09:49:23 <thin> hence its hella slow
09:49:36 <thin> because so few nodes
09:50:19 <kc5tja> qFox: Why not put a NOP NOP NOP NOP sequence as the first word, then write the JMP in the second word?
09:50:36 <kc5tja> Assuming the JMP is even necessary.  
09:53:22 <qFox> i fixed it, the jump simply jumps over the initial variable space
09:53:40 <qFox> i guess i could initialize the cpu to start P at a higher address, but no need
09:54:07 <kc5tja> When I make my MISC core, it will also start at $0000.
09:54:13 <kc5tja> That is the *ONE* thing I *DO* like about the Z-80.
09:54:17 <kc5tja> A sane reset value.  :)
09:54:46 <qFox> well right now i seem to have borked my fetch from memmory function, so all is fubar
09:54:51 <kc5tja> There is zero to no need (yes, redundancy deliberate) to have special "vectors" for things like interrupts and reset.
09:54:54 <qFox> but i'm gonna hit the shower and then go out.
09:55:05 <kc5tja> qFox: Well, hopefully it will be easy to fix.
09:55:17 <qFox> nothing obvious, but i'm sure it is
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09:55:21 <qFox> later
09:55:30 <thin> you've got an initial variable space?
09:55:33 <thin> *gasp*
09:55:33 <kc5tja> remember that it's always possible to scrap code and re-implement.  :)
09:55:59 <kc5tja> YAY!  It compiled!
09:56:00 <qFox> yea but i'm sure that i'll see it when i return drunk and all later tonight :p
09:56:06 <kc5tja> Now to test it with some code from my Verilog book.
09:57:01 <thin> yay
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10:07:38 <Herkamire> heh :) thecircle screenshot #3 has someone running gentoo on a mac :)
10:08:40 <thin> heh
10:08:52 <thin> how can you tell?
10:09:36 <kc5tja> OK, this is getting annoying.
10:09:52 <kc5tja> Code compiles, but the Verilog simulation treats all values as "undefined" even when I'm explicitly initializing them.
10:12:18 <kc5tja> Ah, got it.  :D
10:22:34 <kc5tja> ls
10:22:36 <kc5tja> gahh
10:22:53 <kc5tja> Note to self: hardware simulator also simulates delays through the circuit.  :D
10:23:57 <kc5tja> This is damn neat.
10:24:18 <kc5tja> The ability to do gate-level modeling is very nice too.
10:24:27 <kc5tja> I can *definitely* model an asynchronous CPU with this thing.
10:24:46 <kc5tja> Whether or not I can pack it into an FPGA is another issue, but the hardware can at least be *described* and *simulated*.
10:24:49 <kc5tja> :D
10:35:49 <Herkamire> wow. The Circle sounds very cool
10:36:56 <Herkamire> kc5tja: glad you're having fun with Verilog
10:38:34 <qFox> fixed it
10:38:35 <qFox> yay
10:38:36 <qFox> :p
10:38:41 <qFox> now i can go in peace
10:45:35 <thin> kc5tja: are there other tools besides verilog that you could use?
10:45:45 <thin> want me to warez chuck moore's ACAD? ;)
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10:51:11 <thin> hey i440r
10:51:16 <thin> whats with the nick change?
10:51:21 <thin> just when i was getting used to mark4
10:52:34 <thin> anybody got an idea for a forth poll?
10:54:11 <Herkamire> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaarg firefox makes me sooo mad
10:54:26 <I440r> hi
10:54:32 <I440r> the movie ?
10:54:36 <I440r> the CHEEZY movie ?
10:54:48 <thin> herk: it does? i recently installed firefox and it's working decent for me
10:54:58 <thin> firefox = webbrowser
10:54:59 <Herkamire> mozilla firefox
10:55:00 <I440r> oh - err.. whats firefox
10:55:02 <I440r> oh
10:55:03 <I440r> bleh
10:55:11 <I440r> mozilla == netscape == aol == pile of shit
10:55:16 <Herkamire> firebird changed it's name again
10:55:17 <thin> phoenix => firebird => firefox
10:55:27 <I440r> lol
10:55:34 <thin> actually firefox has very little of the cruft
10:55:37 <thin> it's pretty good 
10:55:43 <I440r> opera
10:55:47 <Herkamire> how come 50% of the time I hit ^R it doesn't reload?
10:55:47 <thin> they've finally dug their head out of their butt
10:55:48 <I440r> nuff sed
10:55:51 <thin> nah
10:56:00 <Herkamire> how come there is no keyboard shortcut for quit anymore?
10:56:05 <thin> firefox has less cruft than opera, & loads up faster
10:56:16 <Herkamire> ^U for view source only works 50% of the time too
10:56:49 <thin> herkamire: hmm, i just use F5 to reload, ctrl-f4 to close a window, alt-f4 to close the whole thing, etc
10:56:54 <thin> works fine for me
10:57:01 <Herkamire> I still don't think you can get rid of those *#&*$&#^$ dialog boxes that ask you if you want it to remember form fields
10:57:01 <thin> which version are you using?
10:57:30 <thin> i haven't encountered those dialog boxes & i've filled out many forms already
10:57:52 <thin> i'm using the latest version.. 0.8 i believe..  or 0.82? 
10:58:20 <Herkamire> 0.8
10:58:50 <Herkamire> I don't think these problems are entirely the fault of bugs. some are on purpose I tihnk
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10:59:19 <thin> its working fine for me..  maybe they don't like your os :P
10:59:41 <thin> if you're using linux then maybe that's part of the problem..  i keep hearing mozilla sucks on linux, even firefox :/
10:59:52 <thin> i'm using win 98 here
11:00:06 <Herkamire> e.g. the keyboard shortcuts do not work when the focus is on a input control
11:00:13 <Herkamire> (text box, and maybe even pulldown)
11:00:33 <Herkamire> I am using linux
11:00:39 <Herkamire> isn't linux the main dev platform?
11:01:56 <Herkamire> oh, and the launch script doesn't work when it's already running (this is a huge ugly script, and I keep expecting them to fix it. I haven't been able to run mozilla when mozilla was already open for... ever
11:02:17 <Herkamire> it should open a new window if it's already running. I've seen it work once or twice
11:05:22 <thin> have you looked at the menus and seen what the keywords are next to the commands for reloading etc?
11:05:33 <thin> maybe ^R isn't the official command ?
11:11:08 <Herkamire> it is
11:11:19 <Herkamire> and it doesn't use gtk, so you can't easily remap the keys
11:12:37 <I440r> bbl
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11:15:45 <thin> edit the config files or something..
11:26:05 <thin> woo
11:26:16 <thin> writing stuff is hard for me
11:34:22 <kc5tja> thin: Sorry, was afk helping my roommie debug his audio setup.
11:34:27 <kc5tja> Herkamire: Yeah, it's *sweet*.
11:34:40 <kc5tja> thin: There are other hardware description languages, but it looks like Verilog is the easiest to grok.
11:43:11 <kc5tja> Herkamire: CTRL-R does "reload," but it tries to optimize the reload.  To ensure a total reload, from blank piece of paper, use SHIFT-CTRL-R.
11:54:34 <Herkamire> optomize?
11:55:02 <Herkamire> my problem isn't with it partially reloading, my problem is it not responding to my keypresses at all
11:55:40 <kc5tja> hmm
11:55:48 <kc5tja> And here I was considering upgrading to Firefox too.
11:55:52 <kc5tja> Guess I should wait.
11:56:35 <Herkamire> I don't know if it's any better in firebird
11:56:39 <Herkamire> I've had problems with this for a while
11:56:45 <thin> firefox works great in windows
11:56:48 <kc5tja> Firebird has never failed to interpret a CTRL-R.
11:57:00 <Herkamire> kc5tja: even if you're in a text field?
11:57:01 <kc5tja> But sometimes it's "optimized reload" is so fast that you don't even see the throbber change.
11:57:23 <kc5tja> In a text field, the meanings of the keys change.
11:57:37 <kc5tja> You need to be out of a text field for CTRL-R to work.
11:58:18 <Herkamire> crappy crappy crappy
11:58:28 * kc5tja shrugs
11:58:39 <thin> what is ctrl-r in a text field ?
11:59:08 <kc5tja> Firebird/Firefox isn't the only software to do this; I swear it's strongly inspired by the Windows UI.  Love it or leave it, though, it's still the single best web browser we have for Linux in terms of overall capability and compatibility.
11:59:12 <thin> localized refresh? ;)
11:59:21 <kc5tja> thin: No operation.
11:59:34 <thin> firefox has a lot of userfriendly features compared to the other browsers
11:59:37 <kc5tja> Like I said, the key bindings change entirely.
11:59:45 <thin> so might as well adapt to its idiosyncracies
12:02:37 <thin> the speed of your adaption is a measure of your intelligence :P
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12:04:00 <kc5tja> Hehe, hardly.
12:04:22 <thin> aww, if i define intelligence to be speed of adaption then i'd be damn smart ;)
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12:04:52 <thin> i adapted to the hp48 calc within 2 hours when i first got it
12:05:07 <thin> i figure if i switched to dvorak i could adapt to it within 2 days, maybe 3 at the most..
12:05:23 <thin> and i wouldn't suck at switching between dvorak and qwerty either
12:05:31 <thin> make a few mistakes initially each time i switch
12:05:49 <thin> well i have to test that
12:05:55 <thin> should install linux
12:15:03 <kc5tja> Heh
12:15:10 * kc5tja will switch to Dvorak one of these days.
12:23:06 <thin> kc5tja pm
12:31:10 <Herkamire> I think the reason people use the mouse all the time is that it's the only thing that works consistently
12:31:22 <thin> heh
12:31:26 <Herkamire> People don't trust keyboard shortcuts. and for good reason. they don't always work
12:31:48 <thin> that's what we have superpowered brains for, to remember all the exceptions to the rules
12:33:56 <Herkamire> I don't think computer interfaces generally have much to do with the way brains work
12:36:56 <thin> true, we're forced to remember a bunch of useless stuff and this "dumbs" us because its cluttering up the brain
12:37:21 <thin> this appplies to just about everything that has exceptions to rules :P
12:37:23 <thin> like english
12:42:39 <kc5tja> thin: pm??
12:42:50 <kc5tja> Oh, private message.
12:42:53 <kc5tja> n/m
12:44:06 <kc5tja> Damn, writing this UART is way way harder than I ever expected it to be.  :)
12:52:41 <Herkamire> it's not so much that we have to remember stuff, we're not too bad at that, it's just that with most interfaces nowadays you have to be actively thinking about the interface. and paying attention to it
12:53:54 <Herkamire> it's hard to get good/complex word done because we constantly have to be switching our attention away from our work, to the interface
12:54:35 <Herkamire> gad zooks g++ sure can slow my computer down. even irssi is lagging
12:54:49 <kc5tja> Herkamire: yep.
12:55:48 <Herkamire> I feel that the herkforth interface fails in this regard too: you have to think about it, and pay attention
12:56:29 <Herkamire> I think I need to change it so you can type like mad, and then go in later and fix it up
12:57:43 <Herkamire> I thought it was kinda cool that it only lets you enter words that are actually in the dictionary. But I think it's not worth it because it makes you pay attention to the input process, and stop what you're thinking about if you make a typo
12:58:58 <Herkamire> I think I'd rather go back after and fix the typos, and define the words that haven't been defined yet
12:59:18 <Herkamire> the editor could certainly help with this (i.e. by highlighting words not in the dictionary)
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13:24:42 <kc5tja> Well, I'm going to take a break from the UART design.
13:24:53 * kc5tja is going to grab some food stuffs with my roommate.
13:27:21 <Sonarman> kc5tja: the only wikis you have on your site are kestrel, fsforth, and qm, right? (just want to be sure i haven't missed anything :)
13:27:55 <kc5tja> yeah, I set them up as I need them.
13:28:35 <Sonarman> ok
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14:02:53 <Herkamire> well, the Circle is being difficult
14:03:10 <Herkamire> it says in the docs (which are cleverly hidden it the circlelib folder amung lots of sources
14:03:38 <Herkamire> say that if you're on a NAT you can use a proxy, or configure your router to forward the right port bla bla. it says how to do both.
14:04:01 <Herkamire> but the code for the daemon refuses to run if your ip is in 192.168.x.x
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14:14:23 <TheBlueWizard> hiya all
14:14:36 <Herkamire> hi TheBlueWizard :)
14:15:27 <TheBlueWizard> hiya Herkamire :)
14:37:30 <ianp> good day
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15:06:56 <madgarden> 32-bit counted strings? Overkill?
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15:21:23 <Sonarman> madgarden: well, i think it wouldn't be overkill with today's computers
15:21:58 <Sonarman> it's always nice to be flexible :)
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15:38:50 <TheBlueWizard> hiya I440r! :)
15:38:55 <TheBlueWizard> hiya snowrichard
16:00:26 <madgarden> Sonarman, true. 
16:01:32 <TheBlueWizard> kc5tja: out of morbid curiosity...is USB too "complex" to be offered in Kestrel?
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16:27:10 <kc5tja> Back
16:27:46 <kc5tja> TheBlueWizard: Hello.  Not complex, expensive, both in terms of parts used and in obtaining unique identifiers needed to uniquely ID devices on the bus.
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16:35:25 <TheBlueWizard> hmm...ok...it'd be nice to have a 'puter with infinite array of USB toys (imagine booting from a USB keychain HD :)
16:35:50 <TheBlueWizard> but the cost kills that idea...oh well
16:43:49 * kc5tja nods
16:44:16 <kc5tja> The other issue is CPU bandwidth.  USB takes a lot of CPU bandwidth to deal with the bus upkeep.
16:44:43 <kc5tja> Much can be automated in a controller chip, but it doesn't eliminate the CPU maintenance tasks completely.
16:44:51 <TheBlueWizard> hmm
16:44:56 <TheBlueWizard> it sux
16:44:57 <kc5tja> My expansion bus is based entirely on *dumb* serial ports.
16:45:00 <kc5tja> Like, really dumb.  :)
16:45:09 <TheBlueWizard> gotcha
16:45:14 <kc5tja> CPU upkeep isn't necessary unless you're actually sending or receiving a packet.
16:45:49 <TheBlueWizard> in other words, one has to manage everything on the software side on Kestrel
16:46:14 <kc5tja> Yes, but it's easier than dealing with USB.
16:46:27 <kc5tja> USB requires CPU intervention even when nothing is being transmitted on the bus.
16:46:50 <TheBlueWizard> really?  that's dumb
16:46:55 <kc5tja> Also my expansion bus is based on a real, honest to goodness network -- you can layer TCP/IP on it if you wanted.
16:47:11 <kc5tja> It's more closely related to Ethernet than USB.
16:47:33 <TheBlueWizard> I see
16:47:42 <kc5tja> If I can master this Verilog stuff, I'll be dedicating one of the eight DMA channels I have planned to the peripheral interconnect bus, to lessen the CPU load.
16:51:01 <TheBlueWizard> sounds like you have a lot of work cut out for you
16:51:08 <kc5tja> It's a learning experience.
16:51:16 * TheBlueWizard smiles and nods
16:51:21 <kc5tja> Right now, I'm having trouble even getting a basic UART transmitter working.  :)
16:51:46 <TheBlueWizard> heh...UART is real basic (at least on software), and yet... :)
16:51:58 <kc5tja> You'd like to think so.  :)
16:52:09 <kc5tja> The hard part is synchronizing it to the CPU writes.
16:52:35 <TheBlueWizard> clock driven?
16:52:57 <kc5tja> Because on the one hand, you don't want it to start sending as soon as you stuff the data in the register.  But you also want it to start sending *right* after the CPU stops addressing the UART.  And, while this is all going on, you still want it to send the data with the proper bit-spacing, which may not be synchronized with the CPU's clock.
16:55:02 <TheBlueWizard> hmm...sounds like it may call for something like flip flop gating or something...or even a tiny state machine to handle all those traffic (UART, whatever)
16:59:04 <kc5tja> That's the hard part.
16:59:09 <kc5tja> The shift register itself is trivial.
17:00:00 * TheBlueWizard nods...he is no HW guy though :/
17:03:32 <kc5tja> :)
17:06:23 --- nick: TheBlueWizard -> TBW-afk-eating
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17:37:01 <kc5tja> Well, I'm pleased to report the behavioral model of the Kestrel's UART *transmitter* is working.
17:37:04 <kc5tja> :)
17:41:50 <kc5tja> Of course, it's important to point out that a behavioral model is rarely directly synthesizable.  But until I am able to get my hands on a real chip programmer, I won't have enough data to rewrite the functional modules into a gate-level design.
17:44:18 --- nick: TBW-afk-eating -> TheBlueWizard
17:51:28 <thin> yay :D
18:01:22 <TheBlueWizard> gotta go...bye
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18:05:34 <arke> hey
18:05:38 <kc5tja> I'm just going to synchronize the transmission of data bytes to the UART's clock, and be done with it.
18:05:46 <kc5tja> arke: Howdy.
18:05:58 <arke> I'm net-less at home right now, so I won't be popping up very often in the next few days (weeks?)
18:06:02 <arke> hi kc5tja
18:06:10 <arke> god this keyb sucks ass
18:06:20 <kc5tja> Why not?
18:06:28 * kc5tja is learning Verilog.
18:06:28 <arke> dad being LeDick
18:06:43 <kc5tja> Working on some Kestrel custom logic.  Just finished the UART transmitter core.
18:06:47 <arke> blocked MAC 
18:06:59 <arke> kc5tja, cool
18:07:14 <thin> kc5tja: is there multiple design the UART? like will you be able to design the smallest, best UART?
18:07:38 <kc5tja> thin: well, here's the description of the transmitter core.
18:07:42 <arke> anhybody know anything about malicious hacking studfdfs?
18:07:44 * thin was just thinking that perhaps coding the UART in forth first and getting it as small as possible in code would help as a guideline to make the best UART..
18:07:46 <arke> FUCK this keyb sucks
18:07:51 <kc5tja> There is a single 16-bit data register (most UARTs are only 8 bits).
18:07:54 <thin> or better yet, you could evolve the UART ;)
18:08:05 <thin> er
18:08:07 <arke> DarwinCPU :P
18:08:10 <kc5tja> Bit 0 MUST be a '0' when writing to this register to be RS-232 compliant, since it's the start bit.
18:08:13 <thin> i meant to say "is there multiple ways to design the UART"
18:08:21 <kc5tja> Bits 1-n contain the data bits.
18:08:35 <kc5tja> Bit n+1 must be a '1' to be RS-232 compliant; it's the stop bit.
18:08:43 <kc5tja> Bits n+2 to 15 must be '0'.
18:08:53 <kc5tja> Thus, up to 14 data bits per RS-232 frame are possible.
18:08:58 <kc5tja> Or as little as a single bit.
18:09:06 <arke> o.O
18:09:09 <arke> the suck
18:09:15 <kc5tja> arke: ??
18:09:26 <kc5tja> The suck?
18:09:35 <arke> 14 bits out of 32
18:09:36 <arke> ???
18:09:41 <kc5tja> 14 bits OUT OF 16.
18:09:41 <arke> or am I misunderstanginf?
18:09:51 <arke> ooh
18:09:51 <arke> ok
18:10:01 <kc5tja> Every time you send a byte via RS-232, you *DO* realize that *10* bits are actually sent, right?
18:10:17 <arke> no...
18:10:21 <arke> 10 out of 16
18:10:27 <kc5tja> That's where that whole "8 data bits, 1 stop bit, 1 start bit" stuff comes from.
18:10:48 <kc5tja> RS-232 has always had a start bit.
18:10:58 <kc5tja> It's also always had at least one stop bits too.
18:11:12 <kc5tja> And the Rs-232 spec defines only 5, 6, 7, and 8 data bits.
18:11:16 <thin> so whats the extra 4 bits?
18:11:29 <kc5tja> But my design can have arbitrary number of stop bits, data bits, and start bits, as long as the sum total is 16 or less.
18:11:34 <kc5tja> Nothing.
18:11:53 <kc5tja> You guys never let me FINISH, so you're all hawking on my design, without knowing a thing about it.
18:11:59 <arke> =D
18:12:09 <arke> we love you Sam
18:12:52 <kc5tja> An RS-232 data word always looks like this on the wire: 1bbbbbbbb0, where b is some data bit.
18:13:18 <kc5tja> So it follows, if you keep shifting this to the right (which RS-232 requires, since it sends LSB first on the wire), you'll eventually end up with a value of $0001 in the transmit register.
18:13:29 <kc5tja> When this happens, the transmitter stops, since it's done transmitting the data.
18:14:15 <kc5tja> This is why bits 15...n+2 must be zero, bit n+1 must be a 1 (hence the "stop bit"), bits n..1 are the data bits, and bit 0 is the start bit (required to be a '0').
18:14:37 <kc5tja> *uart_tx = (0x0200 | (dataByte << 1));
18:14:50 <kc5tja> where uart_tx is a pointer to a 16-bit integer.
18:14:58 <kc5tja> That sends an 8-bit byte.
18:15:13 <kc5tja> *uart_tx = (0x8000 | (dataWord << 1)); // sends a 14-bit word
18:16:14 <thin> huh? what does 0x8000 look like in binary?
18:16:25 <kc5tja> thin: ?????
18:16:36 <kc5tja> thin: Good lord man, it's just bit 15 set, with bits 14..0 clear.
18:16:44 <kc5tja> thin: 0b1000000000000000
18:17:03 <arke> wheweeeeeeeeee
18:17:06 <arke> much bewtter not
18:17:11 <arke> replaced the keyboard
18:17:15 <thin> heh
18:17:18 <arke> and i still can't type wiiorht shit lol
18:17:25 <thin> arke: time to switch to dvorak
18:17:46 <arke> thin, =D
18:17:54 <arke> I particularly like the CF layout
18:17:55 <kc5tja> Also, the UART can support up to a megabit per second or so rather easily, especially if implemented in a CPLD.
18:18:26 <kc5tja> The UART receiver core is going to be equally "different."
18:18:59 <thin> so blazing fast the pathway will become sentient and handle the video up to 1024x640!
18:19:11 <kc5tja> For both transmission and reception, the CPU will be required to do some processing on the raw wire-level data to extract the data byte/word; something it can do *while* the UART is receiving or transmitting the next byte anyway.
18:20:25 <arke> =D
18:22:01 <thin> arke, kc5tja, anyone else here
18:22:06 * kc5tja is
18:22:10 <thin> i'm remaking the forth site
18:22:16 <thin> and i've established 2 main goals
18:22:17 <arke> I;m here
18:22:28 <arke> thin, CGI4TH? :)
18:22:30 <thin> 1) Promote the manufacture of forthchips
18:22:37 <thin> 2) promote coding IN forth
18:22:47 <thin> i'm looking for ideas for what to call the site
18:22:51 <thin> and maybe a slogan
18:23:34 <thin> arke: nah the site is up, just gotta make the name etc and add the resource pages
18:24:02 <thin> ok some current ideas
18:24:05 <thin> #forth site
18:24:12 <thin> forthchips.com  ?
18:24:18 <thin> #forth portal
18:24:22 <thin> etc
18:24:23 <thin> hmm
18:24:35 <thin> how would i represent #forth site in a domain name
18:24:43 <thin> www.hashforth.com heh
18:25:05 <thin> www.forthdev.com maybe
18:25:27 <thin> promoting the manufacture of forthchips won't really take up that much of the site
18:25:36 <thin> so it'll end up mostly being promoting coding IN forth
18:25:44 <thin> with forums, blogs, resource pages, etc
18:26:01 <kc5tja> Well, I don't know about that, but I do know how I'm planning on implementing the UART receiver core module.
18:26:07 <thin> may be able to make some of the resource pages editable (wiki)
18:26:09 <thin> heh
18:27:17 <kc5tja> Data is shifted in from bit 15 (since it's sent LSB first).  A separate bit-mask register is used to identify which bit is supposed to contain the start bit.  When the start bit lines up with the bit in the bitmask register, then the word is considered received, and the RBF (Receive Buffer Full) flag goes active.
18:28:01 <thin> how about something like www.fde.com   forth development environment
18:28:48 <madgarden> www.inforth.com
18:29:00 <thin> heh
18:29:04 <thin> www.codeinforth.com :P
18:29:09 <madgarden> www.forthin.com
18:29:10 <kc5tja> www.forthwith.com
18:29:22 <thin> www.heyyoubastardsstartcodinginforthdammit.com
18:29:23 <madgarden> Doubles as Forthin' and For thin. ;)
18:29:31 <thin> heh
18:29:35 <thin> forthwith ??
18:29:52 <thin> what does that mean
18:29:54 <kc5tja> It's technically a legal term, but...
18:30:03 <thin> oh
18:30:07 <thin> kind of a pun?
18:30:11 <madgarden> Yes, great. Let's associate Forth with lawyers.
18:30:25 <kc5tja> http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=forthwith&x=0&y=0
18:30:37 <madgarden> Confusing legal jargon == confusing Forth code
18:30:49 <thin> www.forthclean.com :P
18:30:55 <thin> simpleforth.com
18:31:36 <thin> goodlccleanforthfun.com
18:31:37 <kc5tja> Well, if you folks aren't going to use it, then I'll use it.
18:31:50 <madgarden> : heretofore dup forthwith loophole case-dismissed ;
18:31:58 <kc5tja> It'll make a great name for the ROM-based Forth OS for the Kestrel.
18:32:13 <thin> heh
18:32:47 <thin> maybe i should go thru the UT site and steal some phrase that chuck coined
18:33:25 <madgarden> We could freak out all the fanatical naysayers... "www.church-of-forth.com"
18:33:33 <madgarden> www.forthcult.com
18:33:33 <thin> heh
18:33:46 <thin> www.forthology.com
18:33:49 <madgarden> www.forthisgod.com
18:33:51 <madgarden> Haha.
18:34:04 <thin> forthology is pretty good :D
18:34:13 <madgarden> Yea, I like that! :D
18:34:41 <madgarden> Use it... you gotta!
18:35:22 <thin> forthology.. we put the ology in forth!
18:35:37 <thin> ok i need a vote
18:35:50 <thin> arke/kc5tja do you love or hate forthology
18:36:31 --- nick: madgarden -> ark3
18:36:33 <ark3> I love it!
18:36:38 --- nick: ark3 -> kcStja
18:36:40 <kcStja> Me too!
18:37:38 <thin> lol
18:37:53 <thin> ya almost foold me
18:37:54 <thin> heh
18:38:19 <kcStja> Now I can't change my nick for some reason. Heh. 
18:38:24 --- nick: kcStja -> madgarden
18:38:26 <thin> the next nick to change to would be th1n
18:38:27 <thin> heh
18:38:27 <madgarden> Ahh, there we go.
18:38:50 <madgarden> Forthology is so perfect, heh. 
18:38:55 <madgarden> But I'll shut up.
18:39:09 --- nick: madgarden -> forthology
18:39:23 <thin> yeah but for a community forth site?
18:39:37 <forthology> Sure, why not?
18:39:47 <thin> especially one that may attempt to convince business ppl to purchase forthchips ?
18:39:57 <forthology> Paleontology, Archeology, Forthology.
18:40:03 <thin> yeah
18:40:04 <thin> good point
18:40:26 --- join: fridge (~fridge@dsl-203-33-166-401.NSW.netspace.net.au) joined #forth
18:40:50 <forthology> Scientology just gives "ologies" a bad name.
18:41:04 <forthology> But, it really means "the study of" Forth.
18:41:34 <arke> b4ck
18:41:43 <arke> d00dz0rz
18:41:47 <thin> yeah
18:41:49 <arke> f0rth is t3h l33t
18:41:54 --- nick: forthology -> madgarden
18:42:03 <thin> arke: what do you think of forthology as the site name
18:42:03 <arke> the study of forth ....
18:42:06 <arke> I like that.
18:42:07 <thin> fridge: you too..
18:42:09 <arke> Forthology.
18:42:11 <arke> I love that.
18:42:12 <arke> :)
18:42:12 <qFox> hm it appears i resist alcohol pretty good
18:42:14 <thin> :D
18:42:15 <madgarden> Heh.
18:42:19 <arke> you know what would be funny?
18:42:27 <arke> if thin is actually like 500 pounds
18:42:29 <madgarden> And it makes fun of the "Forth is a kult" people on the side. ;)
18:42:29 <thin> qfox: do you like "forthology" for the site name of the forth site..
18:42:38 <thin> arke: i'm 225
18:42:44 <qFox> sure sounds good
18:42:53 <thin> thin is supposed to represent "a thin api"  sort of philosophy
18:43:35 <arke> c00ln3ss
18:43:47 <madgarden> I agree with that philosophy.
18:43:56 <thin> my pic  http://thin.bespin.org/pics/outfit1.jpg
18:43:56 <madgarden> That's why I made Forthy originally.
18:44:28 <thin> what's forthy?
18:44:39 <qFox> 40!
18:44:40 <qFox> :p
18:44:44 <madgarden> thin, u r teh lyar!!!11
18:44:44 <madgarden> Not Found
18:44:45 <madgarden> The requested URL /pics/outfit1.jpg was not found on this server.
18:44:52 <qFox> agreed
18:45:07 <madgarden> thin, Forthy is my forthy scripting system.
18:45:20 <madgarden> I was annoyed with how much language existed in all other systems.
18:45:53 <thin> ew
18:46:40 <madgarden> ew what?
18:47:34 <thin> my pic  http://thin.bespin.org/pics/outfit1.jpg
18:47:35 <thin> try again
18:48:06 <qFox> hey thats not a naked chick
18:48:08 <qFox> :(
18:48:23 <thin> thats my pimping outfit
18:48:36 <thin> i've got a pic of a naked chick
18:48:41 <madgarden> Me too.
18:48:46 <madgarden> Two, actually.
18:48:49 <madgarden> Together!
18:48:51 <thin> heh
18:48:52 <madgarden> But anyway.
18:48:55 <madgarden> ;)
18:49:58 <thin> as you guys can see, i'm beautiful
18:50:21 <madgarden> Yea man, you're hot. Damn.
18:50:41 <arke> thin, man, you're sexy
18:50:45 <arke> thin, serious
18:51:00 <thin> lol
18:51:15 <arke> you're much sexier than I am ...... ):
18:51:23 <arke> kc5tja, got a pic of yourself floating aorund? :)
18:51:27 <qFox> lets see. so far, my EVAL is 22 instructions, in about 11 words, and at this point i'm doing a jz, if it jumps, the tos is 0, and the char read from the inputbuffer is a delimiter, else it is not a delimiter.
18:51:28 <madgarden> thin, you need one of those leather gimp zipper masks though. That would complete the ensemble.
18:51:40 <thin> well actually check out http://thin.bespin.org/cduce.html
18:51:42 <thin> more pics of me
18:51:56 <thin> including the naked chick
18:51:59 <kc5tja> arke: Unfortunately not.
18:52:04 <kc5tja> Except for my Orkut picture.
18:52:05 <madgarden> Here's kc5tja!
18:52:06 <madgarden> http://www.orkut.com/medium/732/22732.jpg
18:52:09 <madgarden> :D
18:52:29 <arke> kc5tja, eh, thats you? :)
18:53:15 <madgarden> thin, this is some wicked hair, dude: http://thin.bespin.org/cduce/august1.jpg
18:53:21 <thin> heh
18:53:29 <arke> yeah, I LOVE that hairdo :)
18:53:46 <thin> i got crazy hair right now..  actually looks pretty crappy but its a transition to long hair
18:53:50 <kc5tja> arke: arke: yes, that's me.
18:53:54 <thin> i want to grow down to my ears or better
18:54:00 <madgarden> I used to have kinda long hair.
18:54:10 <madgarden> It's all buzz mode now though. Damn receded hairline.
18:54:40 <madgarden> Here's a cool picture of me: http://www.orkut.com/album/3/425/59425.jpg
18:54:47 <arke> kc5tja, you look older than 27 :)
18:55:04 <arke> madgarden, lol
18:55:54 <madgarden> What's the dilly, yo! http://www.orkut.com/album/1/425/59425.jpg
18:56:06 <kc5tja> arke: Because I'm 29.  :)
18:56:25 <arke> well, still, older than what you are =D
18:56:59 <kc5tja> madgarden: Did you change your picture on Orkut?
18:57:02 <arke> madgarden, that you?
18:57:20 <madgarden> kc5tja, no I still have the same one. Those are just others in my album.
18:57:22 <madgarden> arke, yep.
18:57:28 <kc5tja> madgarden: Ahh
18:57:52 <arke> i think I have a pic of me floating around somewhere...
18:57:52 <kc5tja> arke: Heheh :D
18:58:01 <thin> that pic of kc5tja really was kc5tja?
18:58:13 <kc5tja> thin: Unfortunately so.
18:58:13 <fridge> http://gonadland.com/~fridge/fridge.jpg seeing as we're all getting friendly
18:58:20 <madgarden> http://www.orkut.com/album/2/425/59425.jpg
18:58:28 <kc5tja> It certainly isn't the best picture of me, that's for sure.
18:58:36 <madgarden> Crap, bbl... movie starting.
18:58:55 <fridge> what is this orkut?
18:58:58 <arke> http://p.xanga.com/Arke87/profile.jpg
18:59:03 <fridge> sounds like a yogurt drink
18:59:23 <kc5tja> fridge: DUDE, what's with your PUPILS?!  :D
18:59:37 <kc5tja> They're huge!  Your only light source is the monitor?  :D
18:59:47 <arke> =D
18:59:48 <kc5tja> fridge: It's an online community (http://www.orkut.com)
18:59:56 <arke> fridge, pretty :)
18:59:59 <arke> what about me
19:00:02 <fridge> either that I had just taken acid
19:00:02 <arke> am I sexy?
19:00:04 <arke> =D
19:00:16 <kc5tja> I can't tell -- your HANDS are in the WAY.
19:00:18 <kc5tja> :)
19:00:27 <arke> (:
19:00:33 <thin> heh we all look pretty normal
19:00:33 <arke> I think its a sexy pic
19:00:41 <arke> thin, you're the sexiest
19:00:49 <thin> only cuz of my clothes :P
19:00:52 <fridge> did you put your face on a scanner?
19:01:09 <thin> yeah arke, got another pic?
19:01:20 <kc5tja> fridge: Close.  I had to take my own picture by pointing the camera at the bathroom mirror; and I had to arrange it so that I didn't catch the camera in the pic.  :D
19:01:42 <fridge> ahh, I just held the camera up at arms length
19:01:58 <kc5tja> fridge: I tried that, and after four unsuccessful attempts, I finally gave up.  :)
19:02:16 <kc5tja> Besides, my mugshot is good enough for Orkut.
19:02:42 <thin> eh, use the timer thing on the camera
19:02:48 <thin> set it up somewhere and then pose..
19:03:00 <kc5tja> thin: What timer thing?  :D
19:03:15 <thin> is it a digital or non digital camera?
19:03:57 <kc5tja> thin: Digital.  But it's certainly not the top of the line.
19:04:03 * thin hopes that arke is busy getting another pic up ;)
19:04:36 <arke> no
19:04:40 <arke> that was my only pic
19:04:42 <arke> I'm not at home
19:04:48 <thin> aww
19:04:56 <thin> anybody here know anything about registering a domain?
19:05:12 <thin> i'm at godaddy.com but i'm not sure i want to pay 10 bucks a year to stay anonymous
19:05:14 <arke> buyerscorner.net
19:05:24 <thin> 10 bucks plus the 7 bucks for the domain..  17 bucks a year? 
19:06:05 <arke> kc5tja, check mails
19:06:23 <thin> i went to buyerscorner.net and it sent me to waltoncity.com..
19:06:49 <arke> yeah
19:06:52 <arke> its not up yet :(
19:06:56 <arke> (i thought it was)
19:06:57 <arke> its my daed
19:07:06 <arke> dI heard he's cheap
19:09:20 <arke> later, bye
19:09:20 --- quit: arke ("Leaving")
19:31:41 <thin> la la la la
19:32:02 <kc5tja> do re mi sa lo
19:32:41 <thin> do re mi fa so la ti do
19:32:59 <thin> doe a deer a female deer
19:33:07 <thin> ray a drop of golden sunlight
19:33:12 <thin> mi myself and i
19:33:17 <thin> fa a long long way from here
19:33:23 <thin> so a needle thread (?)
19:33:40 <thin> la (??)
19:33:45 <thin> ti a cup of tea
19:33:55 <thin> do and so we begin again at do
19:33:57 <thin> heh
19:34:09 <thin> i learned this recently :P
19:34:13 <kc5tja> Heh, I totally forgot about all that stuff.
19:34:29 <kc5tja> The last time I learned anything about music was in 4th grade elementary school.
19:39:46 <qFox> heh
19:39:51 <qFox> do, a deer, a female deer,
19:39:51 <qFox> re, a drop of golden sun,
19:39:51 <qFox> mi, a name, i call myself,
19:39:51 <qFox> fa, a long long way to run,
19:39:51 <qFox> so, a needle pulling thread,
19:39:51 <qFox> la, a note to follow so,
19:39:53 <qFox> ti a drink with jam and bread,
19:39:55 <qFox> and that would bring - us - back - to - do
19:40:01 <qFox> i made a script for that a longlong time ago ;)
19:40:44 <qFox> hm isnt it sol
19:40:53 <qFox> oh or not
19:42:22 <thin> haha
19:42:26 <thin> i really mangled it
19:42:48 <kc5tja> OK, well, I have to go pick up my customer's computer, webcam, and video card, so I can continue coding on his stuff.
19:42:52 <kc5tja> I'll be back probably in an hour or so.
19:42:56 <qFox> and i'm going to bed.
19:43:06 --- quit: qFox ("if at first you dont succeed, quit again")
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19:59:37 <thin> i440r you keep joining but you aren't chatty
19:59:56 <I440r> heh
20:00:01 <I440r> im kinda busy alot
20:00:10 <thin> then why'd you join irc? :P
20:00:13 <I440r> right now im no fixed abode too :P
20:00:21 <I440r> was looking for someone lol
20:02:29 <thin> well you found me
20:02:40 <I440r> your too fat :P
20:02:51 <I440r> heh
20:02:52 <thin> btw i was sharing my pic..  http://thin.bespin.org/pics/outfit1.jpg
20:03:41 <I440r> hrm thats u?
20:03:53 <thin> yeah
20:03:53 <I440r> u look taller than i thunked u would
20:04:07 <thin> heh, what you thought i was a small trollish man?
20:04:08 <thin> heh
20:04:22 <thin> i'm 5'10 but those shoes give me an extra 2"
20:04:53 <I440r> aha u cheat
20:09:57 --- quit: ianp (Remote closed the connection)
20:13:40 --- join: ianp (nobody@c-24-13-109-164.client.comcast.net) joined #forth
20:39:37 <kc5tja> Back
20:40:42 <I440r> hi kc5
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21:14:14 <Sonarman> wow.  i always imagined you guys as looking... different :)
21:14:54 <kc5tja> Heheh :D
21:16:47 --- quit: I440r ("Leaving")
21:17:07 --- quit: Sonarman_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
21:18:14 <thin> i wonder what you guys imagined me looking :P
21:18:19 <thin> +as
21:19:15 <Sonarman> i always imagined you guys as floating glowing balls of energy in front of a computer, frankly :)
21:19:23 <Sonarman> with tentacles, of course
21:19:53 <kc5tja> Or as Talosians, with their brain cases being so much larger than the rest of their anatomy.  :D
21:20:14 <kc5tja> (trivia: what TV series did Talosians come from?)
21:20:27 <Sonarman> or those things from TNG that have the most beautiful minds in the universe but are so hideous to look at that seeing one causes instant death :)
21:21:22 <kc5tja> Heh, I've never seen that episode.
21:22:04 <thin> kc5tja: how old is the tv series?
21:22:08 <Sonarman> me neither, but i spent a lot of time reading my Star Trek Encyclopedia when i was sick in seventh grade :)
21:22:53 <kc5tja> thin: Old, back in the 60s.  :D
21:23:12 <Sonarman> Star Trek: The Original Series, then!
21:23:16 <kc5tja> Yep.
21:23:26 <kc5tja> Very first episode, with Christopher Pike.
21:23:33 <Sonarman> oh, i saw that one!
21:23:35 <Sonarman> The Cage
21:23:36 <kc5tja> The Managery
21:23:47 <kc5tja> Or The Cage; i guess it goes by two titles.
21:24:10 <Sonarman> you could see the tiny cables propping up the "floating" leaves :)
21:24:31 <kc5tja> Star Trek was very, very low budget.
21:24:39 <kc5tja> It's damn impressive they did what they did with that show.
21:24:52 <Sonarman> yeah
21:25:35 <kc5tja> That would make a good start up sound for Windows boxen: "WORKING!"
21:34:30 <kc5tja> Oh yeah, I would definitely have to say that my UART code is rather . . . unsynthesizable.  :D
21:34:51 <kc5tja> Compiling it to a netlist format produces about 100 errors, even though the code produced runs flawlessly.
21:35:15 <kc5tja> Apparently, I need to make a structural model at least, and as far as I'm concerned, a gate-level implementation, to get it to compile.  
21:35:30 <kc5tja> But, I'll do that later.  For now, i'm concentrating solely on high-level functionality.
21:35:36 <Sonarman> is it because you wrote your Verilog code in a certain way?
21:35:52 <kc5tja> Well, yes and no.
21:35:57 <kc5tja> My verilog code is IEEE-compliant.
21:36:03 <Sonarman> the netlist is what gets sent to the logic device, rightr?
21:36:09 <kc5tja> But Verilog has several "views" on the hardware.
21:36:39 <kc5tja> The first is the behavioral model; here, you model *just* its behavior.  Sometimes, the compiler can produce a real netlist from this model, but not always.  In fact, rarely.  :)
21:36:45 <kc5tja> (yes, a netlist is what is sent to the chip's programmer)
21:37:07 <Sonarman> the chip's programmer is another chip the programs the chip?
21:37:17 <Sonarman> that programs
21:37:24 <kc5tja> The next is called a "structural model," and it describes exactly the same piece of hardware, but it's closer to how the hardware will be represented.  This is more often than not directly synthesizable.
21:37:41 <kc5tja> Sonarman: Usually some kind of software to handle it.
21:38:02 <kc5tja> Finally, when you need the utmost in control, the gate-level description lets you decide how the chip works, at the individual gate level.
21:38:49 <kc5tja> Verilog lets you intermix these three representations, so that you can convert one module at a time from an unsynthesizable representation into one that can be synthesized.
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21:39:21 <kc5tja> For the UART's code, I'm going to be going directly from behavioral model to gate-level description.
21:39:25 <kc5tja> No fooling around for me.  :D
21:43:41 <kc5tja> Oh well, I think I'm going to hit the sack.  I'm starting to get pretty tired.
21:44:01 <I440r> nite nite :)
21:44:02 <I440r> again 
21:44:03 <I440r> heh
21:44:42 <kc5tja> heh
21:44:51 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK")
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21:45:23 --- nick: Sonarman_ -> Sonarman
21:47:57 <thin> man
21:48:06 <thin> you guys need to be more chatty
21:48:14 <thin> i440r!!!!!!!!!%!%!%^!^*!^*!%!%)!%!%@!
21:49:28 <I440r> lol we were :P
21:50:12 <thin> i440r: what are you doing these days?
21:50:15 <thin> besides work
21:50:22 <thin> are you coding forth at work ?
21:52:05 <I440r> no
21:52:10 <I440r> wasnt coding anything at all
21:53:38 <fridge> someone has forwarded on my resume for a job with less responsibility and almost twice the pay of my current job
21:55:00 <fridge> hope I get it =)
21:55:07 <I440r> cool
21:55:41 <Sonarman> what do you do, fridge
21:55:41 <Sonarman> ?
21:57:41 <fridge> system administration, helpdesk for internal staff, technical support for external customers
21:58:12 <fridge> basically, I fix everything and appease everyone
21:59:25 <thin> and then one day, be the harbinger of anarchy!
23:32:41 --- quit: Sonarman ("Lost terminal")
23:36:44 <thin> anyone here?
23:36:46 <thin> anyone alive
23:37:13 --- quit: Herkamire ("I'm dead")
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/04.04.03