00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.03.31 00:12:19 ASau: M-x zone for extra fun. 00:14:15 --- join: yeoh (~yeoh@219.95.9.244) joined #forth 00:14:28 Dobryjj den', yeoh! 00:14:39 Hello, ASau. :) 01:06:11 --- quit: yeoh ("User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby") 02:11:01 --- join: yeoh (~yeoh@219.95.8.82) joined #forth 03:13:39 --- join: qFox (C00K13S@cp12172-a.roose1.nb.home.nl) joined #forth 03:19:07 --- quit: qFox (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 03:19:11 --- join: Robert (~snofs@c-f55a71d5.17-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) joined #forth 03:22:11 --- join: crc (crc@1Cust237.tnt1.levittown.pa.da.uu.net) joined #forth 03:23:21 --- join: onetom (~tom@cab.bio.u-szeged.hu) joined #forth 03:25:26 --- quit: crc (Nick collision from services.) 03:25:30 --- quit: yeoh ("User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby") 03:25:39 --- join: crc (crc@1Cust7.tnt1.levittown.pa.da.uu.net) joined #forth 03:31:02 --- join: qFox (C00K13S@cp12172-a.roose1.nb.home.nl) joined #forth 03:37:32 Dobryjj den'! 03:39:14 terve 03:41:20 How's your Forth (code)? 03:42:32 how's your poster work? ;) 03:42:42 no time for coding :( 03:42:56 and if i had i tried to revive first my stronger skills in c++ or simlar 03:43:06 and then more for new 03:43:09 more time 03:51:56 --- quit: crc ("Off to work...") 03:55:11 And I'm not going to revive my skills in C or similar. 03:57:08 It's not the best p.l. known. 03:57:37 I'd better spent time for ML, OCaml or Haskell. 04:35:48 --- join: yeoh (~yeoh@219.95.8.82) joined #forth 04:39:11 Hello, everyone. :) 04:46:50 Dobryjj den'! 04:47:20 Hi, ASau. :) 04:48:14 Have you seen this: http://osnews.com/story.php?news_id=6543 ? 04:48:50 not yet but I will in a shortly. 04:50:17 Hi yeoh :) 04:50:23 Yes, I'm in here too. 04:50:35 Hi, Robert. Good to see you here too. :) 04:50:48 God dag, Robert! 04:51:29 Wow, they do need FOSS...there are certainly many opportunities in the emergency services.. 04:51:47 Have you read comments? 04:52:52 Ah, the 12 comments.. will read now. 04:53:03 BTW. Another article, http://www.cbronline.com/print_friendly/7503585eb6e9543f80256e670038578b , is interesting no less. 04:54:44 I see.. well, there will be problems..whose standards to adopt? etc.. 04:56:35 Is Microsoft really going to do that? :) What's the catch? 04:57:08 I liked comment of Austrian on OSS for Emergency or Fire Services. 04:58:02 BTW. It's very useful to read comments. 04:58:20 Yeah. 04:58:36 They're sometimes written by very clever and knowing people. 04:58:58 You've seen doubts on MS SSL. 05:00:03 What is MS SSL? 05:00:58 Microsoft share source license. 05:01:25 I see. :) 05:01:41 Is there a copy of it for download? 05:04:41 NOOOOO its a trick, they want to enforce a microsoft SSL connection on you! 05:04:59 I have not seen, but from comments I understand it's more restrictive than MozPL. 05:05:18 Sorry, Netscape PL. 05:05:26 Oh.. 05:05:51 well, they are going on with trusted computing..:( 05:06:56 I think MS SSL is a marketing trick! 05:09:03 How come 2 3 4 + * yields the same result as 2 3 4 * + ? 05:09:39 Magic. 05:09:53 Black. 05:10:08 Obviously, Forth magic is black magic. 05:10:10 heh heh Are operators words too and put on the stack? 05:10:20 They're words, yes. 05:10:33 But they're not put on the stack, in this example, they are executed. 05:10:58 Oh.. I see but the order does not matter? 05:12:07 It does.. I tested with other words like + and -. 05:12:15 In this case it does not. 05:12:50 (3+4)*2 = (4*3)+2 05:12:55 (4+3)*2 = (4*3)+2 05:13:19 You're lucky. 05:13:31 heh heh.. I see. 05:15:14 BTW. On magic. 05:15:20 Try this: 05:15:29 : 4 5 ; 05:15:50 Hehe. 05:15:58 Or even this: 05:16:01 : 4 + ; 05:16:15 It says 4 exists ok 05:16:31 4 . 05:17:21 What does it mean? 05:17:45 Try this: : 4 5 ; 4 . 05:18:56 There's a joke: 05:19:42 : * OVER 2 = OVER 2 = AND IF 2DROP 5 ELSE * THEN ; 05:19:49 4 exists 5 ok 05:19:58 Now: 4 . 05:20:09 4 5 = . 05:20:29 This is way beyond me! :) 05:20:33 4 4 = . 05:20:41 I can't understand a word! :) 05:20:47 Well. 05:20:51 : 13 12 ; 05:20:55 13 . 05:21:33 Wrong. 05:21:38 FORGET 13 05:21:42 : 12 13 ; 05:21:44 12 . 05:23:40 12 . 13 ok 05:23:53 12 13 = . 05:23:57 12 12 = . 05:24:07 12 13 - . 05:24:40 12 13 = . -1 ok 05:24:49 12 12 = . -1 ok 05:24:57 12 13 - . 0 ok 05:25:36 Ah equate true or false.. 05:26:08 : 12 13 ; means define 12 as 13? 05:26:13 Yes. 05:26:43 heh heh Forth is very cool! We can define anything we want! 05:27:39 That was a standard hack in 80s. 05:28:13 I see. :) 05:28:13 You may define your numeric constants to speed things up. 05:28:17 Like this: 05:28:20 1 CONSTANT 1 05:28:23 2 CONSTANT 2 05:28:33 1000 CONSTANT 1000 05:28:39 1024 CONSTANT 1024 05:28:43 etc. 05:29:01 1 CONSTANT 1 1 exists ok 05:29:18 Well. Now 1 2 3 4 are defined automatically. 05:29:26 formatting the cd-rw takes eternity :( 05:29:28 They're used in kernel. 05:29:45 How? 05:29:48 That's why they exist already. 05:30:01 Like numeric constants! 05:30:15 I see.. pre-defined words.. 05:30:26 as numeric constants... 05:31:42 There is another hack to make your source more concise: 05:31:48 : -- CONSTANT ; 05:32:30 What does it mean? 05:32:34 This kind of hacks is used when holding source in blocks. 05:33:08 You can use this to define more constants in less space. 05:33:28 0 -- ZERO 1 -- ONE 2 -- TWO ... 05:33:41 yes, fewer keystrokes! 05:34:19 so I can say : equ CONSTANT ; 05:34:28 like asm coding..heh heh heh 05:35:14 have you heard a joke about a philosopher, biologist and a mathematician? 05:35:45 I don't recall that joke. :) 05:36:13 the 3 scientist are sitting in a cafe speding sunday afternoon 05:36:50 --- join: TSC (~chris@c210-49-170-179.brasd1.vic.optusnet.com.au) joined #forth 05:37:07 so.. 05:37:14 the 3 scientist are sitting in a cafe speding sunday afternoon 05:37:31 and suddenly they pay attention to next door 05:37:43 they notice while 2 people go in and 3 come out 05:38:09 the philosopher notices and says: "there must be more than 2 people inside" 05:38:51 the biologist thinks that the 2 people have reproduced and thus 3 people come out 05:38:53 --- join: niksie (~nkist@c3eea14ee.cable.wanadoo.nl) joined #forth 05:39:22 then the mathematician opens his mouth and replies: "when one more person goes inside, the house will be empty again" 05:39:52 Dobryjj den', TSC, niksie! 05:41:34 hmm 05:41:42 i shoudl have paid more attention on phrasing it 05:42:28 No matter. 05:42:36 +2 -3 +1 05:42:38 = 0 05:42:46 :) 05:43:14 well if you are not mathematician you'll know that there cant be -1 people inside the house ;) 05:43:25 Why not? (: 05:43:31 These kind of jokes is enough frequently met. 05:43:38 Hm. 05:43:52 heh heh... 05:44:06 There's Gibbs' saying about physisist's sense. 05:44:34 I don't know it in English, hence I can't reproduce it. 05:44:49 yes, it depends on the meaning attached to + and -. :) 05:44:49 Here. 05:44:50 just that better not trigger mathematician joke flood to unleash the zillion mathematics jokes 05:45:13 jokes are based on punchline often 05:45:27 the logic doesnt' work so people have to laugh 05:45:48 yes, an unexpected twist in the logic. 05:46:13 There's better joke about chemist. 05:46:42 aha? 05:47:20 Theme: Boltzano-Cauchy theorem on intermediate value of continuous function. 05:47:49 Physisist thinks: let's consider a spoon of jam and a spoon of crap. 05:48:07 When we mix them, we'll get two spoons of crap. 05:48:09 Well. 05:48:13 heh 05:48:27 Let's add jam to crap. 05:48:33 Spoon after spoon. 05:49:00 :) 05:49:04 From one hand, we're getting more and more crap. 05:49:45 On the other side, when we mix 1 spoon of crap and infinite amount of jam, we should get jam. 05:50:22 Since B.-C. theorem, there should be ratio, when we have to get intermediate result. 05:50:25 is this the chemist joke? 05:50:34 Chemist reports. 05:50:52 Physisist's theory is taken into account. 05:52:00 Experimentally we've found that at 1:175 ratio taste of a crap is almost not felt. 05:52:18 And at 1:250 it can be felt at all. 05:53:15 he he he 05:53:45 hmm 05:54:03 ¶ mark shoudl be used to end the continous text ;P 05:54:18 ASau, what does your charset produce for ¶ ? 05:54:38 I don't know how I can produce it. 05:54:46 what is it? 05:54:57 ^L 05:54:57 is it a bit like filled P backwards? 05:55:06 ^L ? 05:55:15 It's \Pi 05:55:30 cyrillic P ? 05:55:36 Greek. 05:55:44 do you use unicode? 05:55:49 No. 05:56:06 isn't there any more on left side? 05:56:24 _ combined with II 05:56:27 only? 05:57:03 ___ 05:57:05 II 05:57:24 and its completely symmetric? 05:57:38 Assymmetric. 05:58:03 it might be correct character 05:58:07 but not PI 05:58:19 It seems you've proportional font. 05:58:39 no 05:58:43 monospaced 05:58:50 it shoudl not matter to encoding 05:59:00 i saw you had 1 space there 05:59:11 __ 05:59:13 *II 05:59:15 II 05:59:17 ups 05:59:34 well II are straigt, it shoudl look a bit like that 05:59:52 or at least curved a bit the left side 05:59:57 OK. Yes. I get this picture. 06:00:17 --- part: TSC left #forth 06:00:51 that letter has been used for changing the paragraph in book from at least middle-ages 06:00:55 not lately though 06:01:11 bye. :) 06:01:14 --- part: yeoh left #forth 06:01:27 in beginning though 06:01:37 but why not abuse and use in the end 06:01:49 in copy clips to indicate end of text 06:01:57 Forth is postfix, I know. 06:02:35 There's EOT, End Of Transmission character. 06:03:02 but there are more ircclints that work with ¶ than EOT 06:03:12 readability matters more than techincal issue 06:03:39 IIRC, here we had no such tradition. 06:03:51 i have to go to shop to buy something to drink and some bread 06:04:04 Hence, I can't use it. :) 06:04:07 and then go home cooking (hopefully still eatable) food 06:04:27 OK. 06:04:27 in the 1500's also cyrillic books were printed in europe 06:04:34 heprean books too 06:04:47 modern books in europe dont seem to use it either 06:04:58 probably because of lack of real infomaion of graphicians 06:06:14 bye for some time 06:14:12 --- join: madgarden_ (~madgarden@derby.metrics.com) joined #forth 06:14:29 --- nick: madgarden_ -> madwork 06:14:41 Dobryjj vecher, madgarden! 06:16:50 --- join: fridge (~hovil@CommSecureAustPtyLtd.sb1.optus.net.au) joined #forth 06:17:05 Dobryjj vecher, fridge! 06:17:08 ASau, good morning! 06:17:40 To do or not to do? 06:17:47 That's the question... 06:18:05 To do what (or whom)? 06:23:43 I'm deciding of when to start new branch of development, now or tomorrow. 06:24:05 Or not to do this at all. 06:24:14 What is this new branch? 06:24:56 I'm thinking of next try to move to blocks-only based system. 06:25:30 I think I've significant advances since last attempt. 06:28:42 It reminds me one question of MBTI test. 06:29:33 "The best decision is one that can be reverted." Y/N? 06:30:02 --- quit: niksie (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 06:36:19 --- quit: madwork (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 07:07:34 $ du -hs Forth/ 07:07:35 4.6G Forth 07:08:02 hmm, still a few files to grab 07:08:11 thought it would be under a DVD 07:09:11 What is it??? 07:09:21 It is too huge! 07:10:08 videos from ultratechnology 07:10:33 Uf! 07:11:48 I thought it was meant to be sources and docs. 07:12:33 I think I have not read such amount of information for the whole my life. 07:13:52 hehe 07:14:23 4.6G of source code would be insane 07:14:31 forth source code, no less! 07:35:05 any code would be tbh 07:35:18 good luck find a bug there 07:51:43 --- join: Aldo (~noname@200.141.168.14) joined #forth 07:52:03 Dobryjj vecher, Aldo! 07:52:53 hi 08:02:34 and hello ahain 08:02:45 terve taas ;( 08:02:48 >:) 08:03:08 bom dia :P 08:05:44 How's your food, mur? 08:06:31 i have not yet done it 08:06:39 I've succeded to reduce my sources by 10 kB by now. 08:06:46 i was in metro and inshop where i bought cheap bread and some juice 08:06:55 10 kB out of 5 GB? 08:07:05 No. 08:07:07 hehe 08:07:08 okay 08:07:18 I don't own gigabytes of sources. 08:07:47 i made accidentally 2 days ago in school accidentally 10 Gigabytes large single imagefile 08:07:50 I use only 1 661 950 when uncompressed. 08:08:10 Hm. 08:08:12 Nice. 08:08:18 1,6 GB hdd? 08:08:30 when i reduced to corect size it was anymore 200 MB 08:08:33 No it's in bytes. 08:08:40 1,6 MB hdd? 08:08:42 or file? 08:09:06 Total size of my Forth sources. 08:09:19 Forth and related sources. 08:09:28 aha 08:09:45 bloated apple sdk takes easily 200 mb for no-do sources 08:10:10 10 MB is not any size for single project it seems 08:10:38 I'm constantly struggling to reduce this size. 08:10:58 have you seen an oracle install? 08:11:13 i mean the projects take easily 10 MB even for hello world :/ 08:11:35 Buh uhovej! 08:11:45 I'd cry if I had to work on such a codebase 08:11:59 mozilla was a large project 08:12:07 that took ages to get my head around 08:12:17 I don't like large projects 08:12:30 http://www.coxar.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/ ol di know 08:12:36 too much investment is needed before you can do anything 08:12:47 well i like the idea to code java programs 08:19:57 --- join: SDO (~SDO@68.170.20.253) joined #forth 08:20:09 Dobryjj vecher, SDO! 08:20:26 dobry vecher 08:20:31 howdie 08:20:36 whatever vecher means 08:20:40 evening? 08:20:46 dobry den?= morning? 08:21:25 Evening. 08:21:29 den' = day. 08:25:12 http://www.bushflash.com/pl_lo.html 08:25:15 ;P 08:32:16 sounds marvellous 08:48:21 --- join: cmeme (~cmeme@216.184.11.30.unused.swcp.com) joined #forth 08:55:33 --- join: madwork (~madgarden@derby.metrics.com) joined #forth 09:06:13 Dobryjj vecher, cmeme and madwork! 09:19:02 --- join: thin (thin@bespin.org) joined #forth 09:21:45 Dobryjj vecher, thin! 09:23:23 asau, do you work? 09:23:37 What do you mean? 09:23:44 Yes, I work. 09:24:07 whats the job? programming? 09:24:18 Lab. assistant. 09:24:47 how much does it pay? 09:25:15 1600 rubl./month. 09:25:34 I'm not at full day job. 09:26:16 what would a full time job give? like 40 hours a week, 4 weeks a month? lets say, for a programming job 09:27:19 Hmm. 09:27:29 I don't know how programming is now. 09:28:02 It depends on project. 09:29:18 Network administering is payed from approx. 7k and higher, AFAIK. 09:30:22 That's technical support. 09:30:39 cool 09:30:58 what langs do you know? 09:31:12 What languages do you mean? 09:31:18 programming langs 09:31:18 Natural? 09:33:20 I've programmed in C, Pascal, several Basics (ZX, MSX, GW), asm (K580, K1801, K1810), Lisp, Scheme. 09:33:39 are you currently a student ? 09:34:03 Recently I studied SML in search of a good tool. 09:34:09 Last year. 09:34:27 Writing diploma. 09:35:01 hmm? you're attending university and that's why you are worknig part time as a lab assistant right? 09:35:02 What else do you want? 09:35:10 just curious why you aren't working fulltime as a programmer or something 09:35:11 Yes. 09:35:17 ok 09:35:39 I've abandoned one payed job recently. 09:35:43 A month ago. 09:35:52 No time. 09:35:58 ah 09:37:36 Anyway, I don't think, I'll program profecionally. 09:37:59 yeah? what kind of job do you seek? 09:38:12 I plan to do it only for internal purposes. 09:38:25 I plan to stay in research. 09:38:38 ah :) 09:40:43 I've found a place where I most possibly go. 09:43:11 is Mr. BashForth around? 09:43:32 look for Speuler, but i don't think he's around.. 09:43:48 do a whois, he might be in a diff channel 09:44:47 Speuler exists. 09:45:34 --- join: Mark4 (~Mark4@64.47.44.254) joined #forth 09:45:47 hey mark4 09:45:49 hi 09:45:59 i got a problem i'm trying to solve 09:46:03 maybe you guys could help 09:46:11 to do what ? :) 09:47:41 i want to code a program that takes a list with sets of boxes (like a type of box and the number of them) and fits all the boxes onto a pallet 09:48:06 like a 3d tetris problem 09:48:24 but the list of all the boxes (and the numbers of them) are all seen first 09:48:30 I think this problem is NP. 09:48:49 perhaps 09:49:10 NP problems are still solvable, just the time to solution varies.. 09:49:11 It seems it's classical problem. 09:49:17 well it doesn't need to be a true solution 09:49:23 just a close enough solution 09:49:29 You should refer to algorhytmic literature. 09:49:55 thin, thanks, got the .50 distro and have it installed, thank you again. 09:50:20 like for example, there will be 11 boxes of size-Big. 6 of them will fit on the pallet and make one layer. then 5 boxes will make another layer (because they can have space between them.. making FLAT layers is very important) 09:50:36 hang on brb... 09:50:59 If you can wait, I'll ask my friends from Math. Dept. 09:51:01 then next on the list is various numbers of boxes and different amounts of each. most of the boxes will have some dimension in common with each other 09:51:17 i guess i should write down the problem fully 09:52:23 asau: yeah i can wait 09:53:04 If I don't forget, I'll answer no more than in a week. 09:53:51 well i gotta do some research plus write up the problem description 09:55:18 Possibly it's called "packing problem." 09:55:30 But I'm not sure. 09:57:42 Well. 09:57:45 I'm to go. 09:57:48 Bye! 09:57:50 --- quit: ASau () 10:34:14 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@66-91-231-74.san.rr.com) joined #forth 10:34:17 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja 10:35:07 hey kc5tja 10:35:22 how come you don't go with SerialBus? 10:35:38 too expensive? 10:35:51 Too hard to implement. 10:36:06 400Mbps isn't exactly *easy* to implement, without custom chip fabrication facilities. 10:36:15 Well, even 100Mbps even. 10:36:44 It also requires specialized hardware to interface to it. 10:36:53 Which adds to the expense of building hardware for it. 10:36:56 you mentioned the best the forthbox can handle is 2 Mbps? 10:37:16 Then you need to register with a central authority to get unique auto-configuration-related information (company ID, product ID, etc). 10:38:09 eww 10:38:11 thin: Yes; the VIA chips can at best do around 3Mbps, but I'm thinking of taking it down to 1.575Mbps (pretty darn close to T1 speeds, actually, now that I think about it). 10:38:22 remember, this computer is primarily about hackability. 10:38:25 Not marketability. 10:38:32 im starting to not like VIA chipsets 10:38:36 I want every aspect of this computer to be open and easily programmable. 10:38:41 their USB totally sucks 10:38:54 In short, I feel the Kestrel will be the first truely open hardware platform in the world. 10:39:05 Mark4: Who said anything about VIA chipsets? 10:39:09 kc5tja: cool, so what makes it a "forthbox"? gonna package it with a forthos or something? 10:39:20 I'm talking about W65C22 Versatile Interface Adapters (aka 6822 if made from Motorola). 10:39:22 well you said something about VIA chips :P 10:39:27 ohhh duh 10:39:28