00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.03.29 01:18:15 --- log: started forth/04.03.29 01:18:15 --- join: clog (nef@bespin.org) joined #forth 01:18:15 --- topic: 'A channel dedicated to the Forth programming language, its implementation, its application, and its philosophy. :: UPDATE: Those interested in the up-coming ForthBox Kestrel home computer kit are invited to review the Kestrel's very own Wiki at http://www.falvotech.com/cgi/kestrel || kuvos, a words database bot: !fhelp !fsee !fdef || SNEAK PREVIEW IMAGES OF THE FORTHBOX KESTREL!!! http://www.wsu.edu/~jackdoll/jak/comp/images/comp4.jpg' 01:18:15 --- topic: set by arke on [Sat Mar 27 18:50:32 2004] 01:18:15 --- names: list (clog crc arke madgarden ASau networm_ chandler OrngeTide kuvos ianp mur Robert fridge SDO slava warpzero @ChanServ skylan TreyB) 01:38:27 how is this for an evil idea 01:38:39 forth compiler that spits out CLR bytecode =P 01:38:50 CLR? 01:38:59 common language runtime 01:39:05 .NET 01:40:27 !!! 01:40:28 OMG 01:40:31 EVIL 01:42:21 Already exists: Delta Forth .NET (http://www.dataman.ro/dforth/) 01:42:49 I'm back. 01:43:20 fridge. I've heard that Lisp vendors decided not to deal with CLR. 01:43:39 For reasons of speed. 01:44:22 Portability is not of their concern. They've already got one. 01:47:12 I don't understand why forthers, that are proud of portability, should think of CLR. 01:48:51 BTW. crc. It's a kind of main question of recent days. 01:49:46 What's your MBTI? 01:49:57 MBTI? 01:50:20 http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes2.asp 01:52:57 Well. 01:53:26 I've got 2 screens for saving binary working copy of my system. 01:53:54 3 screens, when I add several supporting words. 01:55:00 ...while counting. 01:56:07 That test says I'm a type INTJ (Introverted Intuitive Thinking Judging) 01:56:52 Distibution to this moment. 01:56:54 INTP: chandler, ianp, kc5tja, madgarden, TheBlueWizard, thin 01:56:54 INTJ: ASau, crc, tathi 01:56:55 ENTJ: theFox 01:56:55 ISTP: arke 01:56:55 ENTP: slava 01:57:20 Ehmmm. 01:57:28 I'm unique! 01:57:28 Distribution at this moment. 01:57:47 arke. Read INTJ specification. 01:57:57 Every INTJ is unique. :) 01:58:02 don't feel like it 01:58:05 CFing 01:58:06 :) 02:00:04 i was INFJ when I did such a test.. but I feel I'm INTP 02:00:13 I think it would be much fun to know MBTI of C.M. 02:00:40 networm_. I've run this test for several times. 02:01:07 isn't it always the same? 02:01:39 No. 02:02:15 I don't believe anything of this kind can show right in a single pass. 02:02:19 oh, i see, that's the same one madgarden showed me. 02:02:34 I'm aware of statistical assessments. 02:02:36 did it identify you as different types? 02:02:57 Sometimes it said I'm INTP. 02:03:21 i must try it again then.. i want to be INTP 02:03:50 --- nick: networm_ -> networm 02:03:51 After I've read description, I become more convinced that I'm much closer to INTJ in their model. 02:04:35 networm. Don't try to be an MBTI type of your choice. 02:04:55 That makes result falsified. 02:05:13 In most cases. 02:05:37 3 is closer to 2, but not to 10. 02:05:53 Do you feel difference? 02:07:16 feel difference? 02:08:11 Well. Every such a test are based on statistical model. 02:09:10 In fact, the result assigns you parameters, that're meaningful in this model. 02:09:37 yep. the last 2 was both not very clear in the test.. so i guess i', between T/F and P/J 02:09:52 not very clear = around 50% 02:09:53 I don't know exact term, especially in English, in Russian literature I met term "ranking." 02:10:57 It's when you try to find out dependency of non-numeric on non-numeric parameters. 02:11:19 networm. Try to take the test several independent times. 02:11:36 yes, i will. than build the average.. 02:11:39 Or use "slight variations" technique. 02:13:19 I varied answers on several questions where I doubted. 02:14:00 I'm not machine, so my behaviour varies, it's not strictly defined. 02:15:02 yes, makes sense. i thought for a lot of questions that the answer depends on certain circumstances 02:15:30 Yes. That's why I prefer to take such tests several times. 02:16:52 Anyway, I get stable result. 02:17:48 If I get unstable result, that should show test authors have made a mistake somewhere in their model. 02:18:32 Either it's not exhaustive, or indefinite. 02:19:40 probably indefinite. there might be not just 16 types, but also characters between 02:20:25 --- join: qFox (C00K13S@cp12172-a.roose1.nb.home.nl) joined #forth 02:20:51 --- join: warp0b00 (~warpzero@dsl.142.mt.onewest.net) joined #forth 02:20:59 --- quit: warpzero (Excess Flood) 02:21:00 ...or uncertain. How it should be proper. 02:22:11 Guten Tag, qFox! 02:22:16 hoi 02:22:43 You're not listed. 02:22:50 thats ok 02:22:51 :) 02:23:00 Define your MBTI type. 02:23:05 my wot? 02:23:23 See http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes2.asp for details. 02:24:49 is that a nerd questionair? or what :\ 02:24:57 No. 02:25:16 But nerds are described there too. 02:25:52 i think you can narrow the number of questions by just asking, do you like to socialize or would you rather be on your own? 02:26:22 Well. Do not think. Take the test. 02:26:37 yeye working on it 02:33:03 * arke is away: sleep 02:35:35 infp 02:35:36 wth? 02:36:14 Well. You may take the test several times to be more sure. 02:36:23 .... why? 02:36:42 whats the point, and whats a infp? 02:36:50 except that i am that apppearantly... 02:36:52 To accumulate data for statistical approach. 02:37:10 Read the description for your type. 02:37:40 trying but its more like reading a horoscope 02:37:55 and the other description page isnt working 02:38:06 Introverted Intuitive Feeling Perceiving 02:38:06 Strength of the preferences % 02:38:06 11 67 22 44 02:38:09 Picture of #forth at this moment: 02:38:10 INTP: chandler, ianp, kc5tja, madgarden, TheBlueWizard, thin 02:38:11 INTJ: ASau, crc, tathi 02:38:11 ISTP: arke 02:38:12 INFJ: networm 02:38:12 ENTP: slava 02:38:12 ENTJ: theFox 02:38:14 INFP: qFox 02:38:24 right 02:38:43 but what is the meaning of infp? i mean, the abbrev. 02:38:50 doesnt even say that 02:39:05 Introverted iNtuitive Feeling Perceiving 02:39:14 oh 02:39:40 is that good? ;) 02:39:49 Read the description. 02:39:56 F is bad 02:39:58 It explains. 02:40:04 nooooo :( 02:40:09 no thinking :P 02:40:20 and it also said for me :( 02:40:28 whats the j? 02:40:37 Judging. 02:40:43 ah 02:40:47 Read descriptions for details. 02:41:10 E.g. http://typelogic.com/intj.html 02:41:37 well like, it says i'm a peace loving hippy :p 02:41:58 but alright, if the test says i'm infp i guess it must be so 02:42:11 still say its like reading a horoscope 02:42:29 ASau> that website doesnt work for me 02:42:29 Well. Karl Jung was not an astrologist. 02:43:03 qFox. I've taken this test several times to get stable result. 02:43:32 I've seen deviations from INTJ to INTP for me. 02:43:47 oh 02:43:47 But INTJ is the most frequent result. 02:44:01 It is significantly more frequent. 02:44:06 hm but if you're honest, shouldnt the test just result the same over and over? 02:44:16 No. 02:44:20 i mean, i couldve fooled the test and given a specific type of questions... 02:44:27 answers that is 02:44:27 Yes. 02:44:31 You could. 02:45:18 But even in case you have answered truth, test may, can and do show improper result. 02:45:35 Because of its statistical nature. 02:46:13 Sometimes it shows improper result. 02:46:22 hmm, I am intp apparently 02:46:38 just repeated the test, and I'm INTP :) 02:46:39 Especially in case you're placed on border. 02:46:47 56 33 22 33 02:47:10 i guess 100 100 100 100 would mean full INTP 02:47:47 and whats intp? 02:48:01 INTP is computer geek. 02:48:03 the cool programmer type character :) 02:48:06 heh 02:48:10 could've known that 02:48:31 (by looking at that channel's stats thingie) 02:48:32 :) 02:48:42 So we have more and more growing cohort of INTP nerds. :) 02:50:02 "INFPs do not like to deal with hard facts and logic." oh thats your dead sentence right there ;) 02:50:09 You only should get GeekCode (http://geekcode.com/). 02:50:11 overall the thing is fairly ok 02:50:16 i guess 02:52:43 Now the #forth channel looks this way: 02:52:45 INTP: chandler, fridge, ianp, kc5tja, madgarden, networm, TheBlueWizard, thin 02:52:45 INTJ: ASau, crc, tathi 02:52:46 ISTP: arke 02:52:46 ENTP: slava 02:52:47 ENTJ: theFox 02:52:47 INFP: qFox 02:53:07 Feel tendency. 02:53:11 where's mur in that picture :p 02:53:31 More important, where am I? 02:53:42 Either he has not tested, or I've not seen result. 02:54:05 Robert. I've not seen your type published. 02:54:15 Dobryjj den'! 02:54:24 I'll do the test, then. Hi :) 02:55:47 "z** 02:55:48 I've been known to make perverts look like angels." 02:55:51 Tasty. 02:56:41 Ehm, but I'll check that other thing. 02:56:48 If I can reach it... 03:05:30 Hm. 03:05:35 Where's mur... 03:05:44 Where is ChanServ, I wonder! 03:07:03 i bet he's some kind of infp type too, a help the world make a better place hippy 03:07:12 sounds about right for chanserv :p 03:07:42 --- quit: crc ("Goodbye") 03:07:46 same as kuvos i guess 03:07:56 that would be correct since kuvos == me 03:07:56 :p 03:08:15 give it some own personality 03:08:18 its my alt nick, and a different computer, and ... well a bot 03:08:42 or give it the possibility to develop its own personality 03:08:54 with some self-modifying forth code, or something :) 03:09:02 :) 03:19:25 Well. 03:19:32 It seems like Robert is INTJ. 03:19:54 Or INTP. 03:20:34 I'm checking those, but that server is almost dead. 03:20:48 Ah. 03:20:53 Well. 03:21:11 I'm guessing, because you're not responding. 03:21:35 I take back. 03:24:42 INTP seems more correct of those. 04:10:34 Hm. Should I rewrite console driver of my system to Forth, I wonder? 04:10:48 ...in Forth... 04:11:10 Or leave it in asm? 04:18:48 If it works, why bother? 04:22:54 I'm going to port everything to Linux or BSD or whatever kernel I find better. 04:23:30 It involves better factoring. 04:23:42 ...includes.. 04:24:02 As a side effect. 04:37:03 Hmm. 04:37:13 It seems I better rewrite it. 04:37:50 This will allow me to reconfigure my system for remote shell. 04:38:13 I'll be able to run Forth as telnet server. 05:33:32 Does anyone remember, where's zero-flag in flags register in 80x86? 05:33:35 What bit? 05:34:01 Does anyone remember, where zero-flag is in flags register in 80x86? 06:15:45 --- join: hovil (~hovil@CommSecureAustPtyLtd.sb1.optus.net.au) joined #forth 06:45:37 --- join: thin (~thin@csnet038.cariboo.bc.ca) joined #forth 06:48:03 Hi 06:48:15 ASau: we are born with an inherent personality type, it doesn't really change. if it "changes" thats only because of flawed tests/testing. I think you are "wishing" that you are INTJ. you're probably mild INTP, mild means that you are close to INTJ but not strong enough in that to be considered fully that 06:48:20 Robert: what's your personality type? 06:48:39 http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes2.asp 06:48:49 robert: i don't think you are intp.. probably more like ISTP or something 06:49:00 intp = accomplishes jack shit 06:49:32 well.. 06:49:35 extreme intp :P 06:51:58 well my initial assumption that intp's would be more like me is increasingly flawed everytime i find out another intp 06:52:14 i assumed they would be smart, handsome, entrepreneurial, etc ;) 06:52:45 we need more personality tests! 06:53:05 MBTI + several others, and then i can use the junction of all the ones common to me in order to find others like me! :P 06:54:43 --- quit: arke (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 06:54:56 Hmm... 06:55:07 --- quit: hovil (Remote closed the connection) 06:55:29 --- join: hovil (~hovil@CommSecureAustPtyLtd.sb1.optus.net.au) joined #forth 06:55:37 thin you actually know all those acronyms by heart? :\ 06:55:52 * Robert checks ISTP. 06:56:02 or just the ones that generally count for this kind of community? :) 06:56:13 qfox: there aren't any acronyms 06:56:22 i mean the intp 06:56:23 etc 06:56:40 I = introverted E = extraverted N = intuitive S = sensing T = thinking F = feeling P = perceiving J = judging 06:56:55 ENTJ INTP ISFP etc 06:57:14 Bleh 06:57:17 They all look the same. 06:57:22 robert: don't "check" personality type.. take the dang test.. 06:57:29 What test? 06:57:35 Oh 06:57:45 Now I see the link. I only saw summaries 06:58:04 http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes2.asp 06:59:07 --- join: madgarden_ (~madgarden@derby.metrics.com) joined #forth 06:59:49 Yep, I'm taking it now 07:09:54 at the end of the day 07:10:11 does catergorising people into these types provide any benefit 07:10:12 ? 07:10:35 Who cares? ;) 07:12:52 hovil: some, helps us understand ourselves, helps us understand commonalities between each other & differences too 07:13:21 helps us add to our mental model of how various people will end up interacting etc 07:13:53 --- quit: networm (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 07:15:27 --- join: networm (~networm@L0657P28.dipool.highway.telekom.at) joined #forth 07:15:39 "Your Type is 07:15:40 INFJ" 07:15:55 paste the numbers 07:16:15 Introverted Intuitive Feeling Judging 07:16:15 Strength of the preferences % 07:16:16 22 33 33 11 07:16:35 ok so very week INFJ 07:16:45 Weak, yes. 07:16:52 which means you are almost EFTP :P 07:17:18 week weak blah, tired 07:17:26 :D 07:17:29 * Robert pets thin 07:17:31 doesn't that just make him more normal 07:17:58 he is centered and at one with the universe! 07:19:20 Robert> join the club :p 07:19:29 i wonder if 0 0 0 0 is possible 07:19:38 sure 07:19:40 xxxx 07:19:44 that would be the type 07:19:57 0 means equal e/j therefore you get an x 07:20:05 er 07:20:09 e/i p/j etc 07:20:32 heh 07:21:04 i wonder if there are many xxxx 07:21:28 well they probably wouldn't know it 07:22:06 hm, still, some statistics would be interesting 07:22:18 like, 5% of people are INTP, ... 07:22:51 1% 07:23:01 hm 07:23:07 well according to keirsey statistics for those who've taken the test its 3% 07:23:16 100 / 16 = 6.25.. in case all possibilities are equal (ignoring xxxx) 07:23:26 but that's probably because some of the other types are less likely to take the test 07:24:47 thin. Have you read Spencer? 07:24:57 We're born "tabula rasa." 07:25:26 This personality type is _model_. 07:25:51 false, all babies are born with distinctive personalities 07:25:54 And like any classification in humanities it is _ranking_. 07:26:08 thin. Have you ever read Spencer? 07:26:17 Go read his works. 07:26:25 no, and who cares.. bringing up spencer smacks of "authority by reference fallacy" 07:26:41 I don't want repeat all his obvious arguments. 07:27:00 don't tell me to read his works, you need to go read Ayn Rand's writings as well as "Objectivism: Ayn Rand's philosophy" by Leonard Peikoff 07:27:23 The latter book will demolish all of spencer's crap 07:27:24 I know very well, what's objective. 07:27:59 Have you ever studied philosophy? 07:28:06 objective = reality 07:28:10 yes i have 07:28:11 more than you 07:28:15 OK. 07:28:26 listen to me 07:28:28 the reality is 07:28:34 Reality has nothing with objective when you come with idealism. 07:28:36 all babies are born with distinctive personalities 07:28:39 it can be OBSERVED 07:28:56 they have different levels of behavior, excitement, crankiness, sleep times, etc 07:29:00 even before they leave the womb 07:29:02 So what if baby is taken out of society? 07:29:05 and scientist proved that 07:29:07 er 07:29:25 It does not get any personality at all. 07:29:36 a scientist proved that the activity of the baby inside the womb was constant when he is born 07:29:43 it becomes an ape 07:29:46 lol 07:29:53 apes have personality 07:29:57 How can personality be inherent if it does not appear out of society? 07:30:05 networm, no, it dies 07:30:13 hovil: or runs with wolves :D 07:30:20 that is a society =P 07:30:22 asau: clearly you don't understand what "personality" means 07:30:38 there's always a society, whether it is the ants or not ;) 07:31:14 So what does it mean after you? 07:32:13 Once again. When human child runs with wolves it gains no humane personality. 07:32:15 At all. 07:32:23 every baby has their own distinctive personality, which is observable. then as they grow up it becomes more distinct and gets built upon.. 07:32:29 wtf? 07:32:37 you don't know what personality means 07:32:48 Once again. So what does it mean after you? 07:32:53 it is a combination of genes and environment 07:33:12 Sorry. That's called phenological type. 07:33:30 It has nothing in common with social behaviour. 07:34:40 personality is not related to society/"social behavior" etc.. it's just a person's unique behavorisms, a person's tendencies, his natural modus operandi, etc.. 07:35:13 "Behaviour" in what environment? 07:35:38 hahahaha 07:35:39 "Tendencies" in what environment? 07:35:49 ASau you are CRAZY 07:36:19 Read all these descriptions. I mean "personality" types. 07:36:52 i wonder how much you misunderstand because english isn't your first language? 07:36:55 When you prove that they do not concern behaviour in society, you're right. 07:37:11 do you have Asperger Syndrome ? 07:37:34 Hint, you're ingnorant idiot. 07:37:53 --- mode: ChanServ set +o thin 07:37:57 Idiot in Old Greek sence. 07:38:10 --- join: Herkamire (stjohns@h000094d30ba2.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 07:38:27 gentlemen gentlemen, as my profile thingie suggests, i'm a great mediator... come on :) 07:38:32 heheh 07:38:42 My son definitely has a defined personality, observable since birth. 07:38:57 "The last resort of incompetent?" 07:39:09 I used to think babies were a blank slate. Oh how wrong I was. 07:39:26 madgarden. Was it isolated from humane society? 07:39:38 how is that relevant?! 07:39:42 you are a fricking moron asau 07:39:58 even if it were isolated from human society it would still have a distinct personality 07:40:14 The first 3 months at least are a write-off as far as societal influence goes. 07:40:30 And I observed personality within days of birth. 07:40:32 you are a major troll, and dumb one at that.. you are definitely NOT an INTP because at least INTPs are open minded 07:40:37 they can cry and shit 07:40:42 i believe ppl are born with certain "settings" for emotions. like a tendency for hate, or a tendency to love. these can be somewhat changed while growing up 07:40:44 Well. So how would run with wolves child behave after return to society? 07:40:53 hovil, they can cry and shit with ATTITUDE. 07:40:54 like you can teach a pitbull to be nice, but it'll always be a pittbull 07:40:55 ;) 07:41:07 you can also just teach a pitbull to mass destruct anything it can 07:41:19 which is usually easier, giving its nature 07:41:22 :p 07:42:13 but the same goes for kids. one might have a tendency to be very jealous. but with the right environment and education etc, i believe you can get rid of it before s/he matures. 07:42:41 the big question remains what is the perfect way to do this 07:42:56 qFox. Do not mix up instincts and social behaviour. 07:42:56 asau: do you know the words "modus operandi" ? 07:42:58 That depends on personality. 07:43:07 we aren't talking social behavior, we are talking personality 07:43:20 what is the difference? 07:43:29 your social behaviour depends on your personality 07:43:38 exactly 07:43:46 its a one way road 07:43:47 well, change one change the other. 07:43:53 your personality doesn't depend on social behavior 07:44:21 no but you can surpress it, if you'd like to see it that way. 07:44:48 if you grow up surpressing it, you wont know any different (ok unless confronted of course) 07:45:10 can we get back to talking about forth please 07:45:22 if you suppress it you won't be too happy 07:45:28 forth, forth and forth. more forth than you can poke a stick at 07:45:30 you'll be happiest in your "natural" personality 07:45:31 forth forth forth 07:45:40 bigforth 07:45:43 littleforth 07:45:44 i dont mean happiness (Even though thats possible i guess) 07:45:45 some fucking morons need to code a forth development environment 07:45:48 pygmyforth, even! 07:46:05 nobody here should code forths 07:46:09 they should code IN forth 07:46:18 rather than coding in asm or c or whatever gay language in order to create a forth 07:46:18 heh 07:46:39 gtg, bbl 07:46:39 hovil: what are you doing with forth? are you coding forth these days? 07:46:56 not enough =( 07:47:05 written a few helper apps 07:47:08 looking at PICforth 07:47:36 Coding *in* Forth is too high level. :P 07:47:49 Next you'll want us coding in UML! 07:48:05 onetom had an idea of coding a UML interpreter in forth 07:48:06 heh 07:48:15 lol 07:48:24