00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.03.26 00:05:41 I'm back. Dobyjj den'! 00:46:03 --- quit: yeoh ("User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby") 01:17:56 --- quit: OrngeTide (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 01:20:16 --- join: OrngeTide (orange@rm-f.net) joined #forth 02:28:38 --- nick: Robert_ -> Robert 02:34:34 God dag, Robert! 02:38:50 God dag. :) 02:41:01 --- join: qFox (C00K13S@cp12172-a.roose1.nb.home.nl) joined #forth 02:41:21 Dobryjj den, qFox! 02:41:32 :) 02:42:30 Hoi 02:47:06 --- join: madgarden_ (~madgarden@Kitchener-HSE-ppp3576712.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 02:49:40 Dobryjj den', madgarden! 02:57:10 privet 03:02:09 Privet, mur! 03:05:19 --- quit: madgarden (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 03:05:32 terve ASau 03:05:46 It looks like European meeting. 03:07:26 I'm thinking on kind of distributed network for sharing code. 03:08:39 --- quit: Fractal (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 03:09:36 We can share our off-line work results through distributing DARCS "patches." 03:11:06 Or we can write a kind of version control system in Forth. 03:29:15 --- join: crc (crc@1Cust160.tnt1.levittown.pa.da.uu.net) joined #forth 03:33:55 Dobryjj den', crc! 03:34:44 Good morning ASau 03:41:03 crc. What do you think of self-compiling for your Retro? 03:43:42 It'd be nice to do, but I'm still a long way off from that. 03:43:55 Have you seen postForth? 03:44:02 Well. 03:44:08 Main idea is: 03:45:05 a) you have core that provides low level compiling: C, , and ' 03:45:24 b) you have low level oriented Forth code. 03:45:44 Code in "b" creates high level compiler. 03:46:00 Like: IF BEGIN WHILE etc. 03:46:21 And it provides user-oriented words. 03:47:19 You load core + low-lev. source from disk. 03:47:47 Core starts interpreting low level source. 03:48:14 At the end of low level source, you get user oriented interface. 03:48:30 How do you find this? 03:48:56 I think that would be better than Forth/sed etc. 03:49:08 It would be better. 03:49:31 SEDForth was an experiment I used to learn SED, it has no practical value. 03:49:58 I've tried to use sed in similar way. 03:50:10 I've not liked this. 03:50:53 It was a year or about before I've seen your experiments. 03:52:33 I think that even m4 is better than sed. Like Horst did. 04:01:04 I tend to stick with assembly and forth now 04:02:22 Once I get file read/write working under Linux and Windows, I'll start coding a better RetroForth-based compiler. 04:11:11 --- quit: crc ("Off to work") 04:32:26 --- quit: hovil ("Leaving") 05:40:59 --- quit: ChanServ (Shutting Down) 05:42:09 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth 05:42:09 --- mode: irc.freenode.net set +o ChanServ 06:15:07 --- quit: ChanServ (Shutting Down) 06:22:25 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth 06:22:25 --- mode: irc.freenode.net set +o ChanServ 06:23:40 --- quit: networm_ (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 06:25:35 --- join: networm_ (~networm@L0652P24.dipool.highway.telekom.at) joined #forth 06:39:52 --- join: snowrichard (~chatzilla@adsl-068-209-159-248.sip.shv.bellsouth.net) joined #forth 06:41:14 --- quit: arke (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 06:59:36 --- quit: snowrichard ("ChatZilla 0.9.52B [Mozilla rv:1.6/20040115]") 07:10:06 --- quit: warpzero ("Tried to warn you about Chino and Daddy Gee, but I can't seem to get to you through the U.S. Mail.") 07:13:01 --- join: warpzero (~warpzero@dsl.142.mt.onewest.net) joined #forth 07:23:19 --- join: thin (~futhin@csnet044.cariboo.bc.ca) joined #forth 07:25:37 Hi 07:29:02 well Robert 07:29:13 how is it going? 07:29:39 Not too bad. :) 07:29:47 Only a few days left to April. 07:29:54 And then I can start transmitting. :) 07:30:02 oh my 07:30:10 Dobryjj vecher! 07:30:15 Privet, ASau 07:31:30 Yeah! 07:31:45 I've broken one big subroutine into two smaller ones. 07:31:51 3 = 1+1. 07:31:53 :) 07:32:20 --- quit: fridge (Remote closed the connection) 07:32:52 the power of synergy 07:33:25 The power of energy. 07:33:38 ASau: Heh :) 07:33:59 lies 07:34:05 synergy is defined as 1+1 = 3 07:34:10 Diminishing enthropy. 07:34:10 energy is something else 07:35:03 \Delta G_{sol} = -RT (x \ln x + (1-x) \ln (1-x)) 07:36:01 Spending energy to diminish enthropy. 07:36:09 you're not supposed to remember anything from school unless you use it in real life 07:36:55 * warpzero is away: No! Herbie! Don't do it! 07:37:09 That's your western prejudice. 07:37:20 Hence ignorance. 07:38:16 now you reveal your ignorance, western society has way too much emphasis on school 07:38:56 Remember anything you can, that's what I say 07:39:11 12 years spent for "you're not supposed to remember anything from school unless you use it in real life"? 07:39:13 Call me western or eastern or ignorant if you wish... 07:40:48 suppose you learn C/C++ then you encounter forth. obviously you're gonna have a hard time coding forth because the paradigms of C/C++ will clutter up your brain 07:40:53 Elementary school is "you are to know it from school." 07:41:03 basically there's a lot of noise out there, from school, from news, etc 07:41:15 the more noise you take in, less intelligent you become 07:41:18 because it clutters up your brain 07:41:38 if school was perfect and transmitted no noise, then everyone would be orders of magnitude smarter 07:41:41 My brain is made to receive signal, not noise. 07:42:14 If you take school as noise, that's your problem, not school's. 07:42:44 the engineers that had never programmed before were better forthers at iTv than the ansi forthers, because they were giving noise free tools, a noise free language, and only 32 words 07:43:06 and didn't have any bullshit paradigms from previous programming experience 07:43:20 That's not school's influence. 07:43:37 i'm talking about noise in general, its pervasive throughout society 07:43:41 Your programmers have not learned to learn. 07:44:15 fact is that the more noise eliminated from society the smarter everyone will be 07:45:35 I'd recommend you to listen signal not noise. 07:46:28 When you listen someone, you can guess, what he means in real. 07:47:02 look don't be so arrogant as to think that you are noise free 07:47:08 look at how stupid you are 07:47:19 blame that on a large part of the noise 07:47:23 er 07:47:26 blame a large part of that on the noise 07:48:03 fact is there's a personality type that is most likely to be noise free, and that's INTP 07:48:45 simply because he ignores a lot 07:50:26 What definition of "noise" do you use? 07:50:35 Subjective or objective? 07:51:46 "Noise to definite peerson" or "noise at all"? 07:51:54 ...person... 07:54:51 noise is any extraneous information or paradigms that clutter a persons brain and make it harder for him to have clarity of thought, that discourage him from thinking etc 07:55:12 OK. 07:55:27 So you use "objecive" definition. 07:55:32 "Noise at all." 07:55:33 basically removing all noise leaves you with a minimal amount of basics of knowledge, from there it is a lot easier to build new concepts, new ideas, new understandings of the world etc 07:55:56 easier to build mental models of the world more objectively 07:56:29 Have you ever thought, that something you think of as noise is not noise to anyone else? 07:57:28 Ha! 07:57:33 thats not my definition of noise 07:57:39 You mix both definitions. 07:57:46 That's your problem. 07:57:56 Then decide, what you want. 07:58:10 no. noise makes it harder for people to think clearly. its pretty simple 07:58:28 the engineers with no programming experience encountering machineForth with its 32 words were able to think very clearly 07:58:35 they were able to program really well 07:58:53 because there wasn't any noise preventing clarity of thought 07:58:54 Decide, please, what definition you use of two above mentioned. 07:59:10 wtf! 07:59:17 i told you the definition 07:59:30 "Subjective" or "objective"? 07:59:51 Whom do you relate? 08:00:04 you figure it out if you're so smart 08:00:09 "The definite person" or "a person"? 08:00:30 You've mixed both definitions. 08:01:18 You've said that "the world is full of noise" ("objectively") and "with no experience" ("subjectively"). 08:01:28 Select one. 08:02:59 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@workstations.pinnaclesports.com) joined #forth 08:03:13 heh you are trying to force the definition into your categories in order to rip it apart. 08:03:18 fact is that its all objective 08:03:21 even if people are involved 08:03:36 people are bags of chemicals 08:03:53 * proteusguy is a *sack* of chemicals. 08:04:07 Whom do you relate in your definition definite person or a set of persons? 08:04:30 That's called "reductionism." 08:04:33 It's wrong. 08:04:59 People are more than raw substance. 08:05:27 you are being subjective in your arguing by trying to force this argument into your arbitrary categories in order to win the argument 08:05:41 i refuse to recognize your definitions of your categories 08:05:49 Sorry? 08:06:12 Have you studied philosophy? 08:07:31 That's not my own experience and it does not relate only my own one, hence I'm not subjective. 08:08:17 look i'm not interested in arguing here for the sake of arguing. i have transmitted a concept, simply that "there is communication/information noise that people pick up, concepts and paradigms that interfere with a persons natural creativity and ability to think. if the noise was reduced, people would be smarter" 08:08:20 its a simple concept 08:08:31 i'm not really interested in arguing for the sake of arguing, its pretty boring 08:08:59 either you disagree with the concept, explain why, don't try to discuss "objective" or "subjective" or semantics or philosophy 08:09:17 but i really don't care about if you disagree with it, unless you can introduce new ideas 08:09:21 then i'll consider them 08:09:40 otherwise, just fuck off 08:09:57 And many scientists' experience, e.g. Lagrange, Landau, contradicts your concept. 08:10:14 explain 08:10:27 The more your knowledge is variant, the smarter you are. 08:10:28 give details 08:11:10 ok then the argument boils down to the definitino "what is intelligence/smartness" 08:11:14 Hamilton, IIRC, said (approx.): 08:12:46 "The circle of interests becomes narrower, once it becomes a point. That's is called point of view." 08:13:50 i do not believe that the more trivia you know, the smarter you are 08:13:53 The more you name "noise," the less you get to be significant. 08:14:45 smartness is based on ability to think, and the better your mental models, the less noise/trivia/obsolete paradigms & concepts/ you have in your brain, the easier it is to think, the more rapidly you will do so and the more accurate your mental models will be 08:15:09 smartness/intelligence = ability to reason (in speed and accurateness) 08:15:46 reasoning is taking what the senses tell us of the world and using logic/rationality to evaluate it and build mental models for understanding reality and its various aspects 08:15:48 You can't think without any premise. 08:16:13 we start with premises 08:16:14 When you know nothing, you even can't decide if you get meaningful result. 08:16:20 as a child we learn that A is A 08:16:29 that conciousness exists 08:16:32 etc 08:16:51 you seem to have trouble understanding me, or you assume too much 08:17:18 smartness gathers the premises and builds upon them 08:17:18 --- join: Mark4 (~Mark4@64.47.44.254) joined #forth 08:17:37 but more knowledge doesn't mean more intelligence 08:17:39 that's bullshit 08:17:49 Well, where does it gathers ones? 08:18:01 ...gather... 08:19:24 i recommend you read the book "Objectivism: ayn rand's philosophy" :P 08:19:26 There's a joke. 08:19:28 it will explain 08:21:11 Theorist-physisist's First Principle: "The straight line is easier to draw using two points." 08:21:35 What if one of them is error? 08:22:12 I recommend you to read any (good enough) book on materialism. 08:22:40 For you know what's objective. 08:25:19 there are three fundamental premises that we discover as babies, but most philosophies invariably make the mistake of rejecting some of them along the line.. hence they aren't objective 08:26:30 So what? 08:27:18 This does not disturb any way. 08:27:37 Even when it's the case. 08:27:40 lol 08:30:17 It's not the case, BTW. 08:31:16 Spenser, IIRC, showed it. 08:39:50 Anyway, Herbert Spencer used the fact that baby has no a priori knowledge. 08:40:14 ...knowledge a priori. 08:41:03 i'm not talking about a priori knowledge 08:41:16 talking about the three premises we learn as babys 08:41:20 suchs as A is A 08:41:42 a ball rolls and a book slides and no matter how much we might want to exchange those properties we can't 08:42:08 s/babys/babies s/suchs/such 08:42:33 I'm not talking about a priori knowledge. 08:42:59 But the Spencer's example show you're not right. 08:43:49 And even my own experience shows baby does not take argument "A is A." 08:43:55 ?? you said his example was a priori 08:44:18 look a baby crawling around on the floor encouters a ball and a book 08:44:31 he discovers he can roll the ball around and slide the book around 08:44:37 --- join: AldoBR (~noname@200.141.173.41) joined #forth 08:44:38 and he discovers that he can't get the book to roll 08:44:54 good evening 08:44:55 automatic A is A property, he learns that 08:45:20 good morning 08:46:13 gtg 08:46:15 --- quit: thin ("laters") 08:46:56 Better you read Spencer's works. 08:47:12 Good evening, AldoBR! 08:47:59 How is your Forth? 08:48:11 dont know 08:48:19 my computer blowed up 08:48:22 :P 08:48:30 connected at wrong voltage 08:48:32 :P 08:49:00 Congratulations. 08:49:06 :P 08:49:08 You have more time for real life. 08:49:16 1 month without computer/internet 08:49:49 i'm addicted... cant live without the net 08:49:50 Ah. Be it the whole 3 monthes. 08:50:23 Become addicted to real life. 09:19:17 hm, i have a question. if i define a word, and use it later, ..... how is it saved/used? i mean, like the example yesterday. : b256 decimal 256 base ! ; i would expect, that once i use the word, first the base is set to decimal, then 256 is put on the stack (and interpertered as 10base), and then base is set to 256. but apperantly, thats not how it works? 09:35:49 You can't set base more than 36. 09:36:19 Well. 09:36:35 "How the stuff works." 09:36:47 You write a word. 09:37:00 Compiler looks for it in dictionary. 09:37:23 If it finds, it calls COMPILE or EXECUTE 09:38:07 If it does not find, it calls NUMBER in order to determine whether you've entered a number. 09:38:20 Here NUMBER uses BASE value. 09:39:47 Your "256" is interpreted with BASE value of compiling time. 09:41:02 If at the moment of compilation your base was DECIMAL, you've compiled 256. 09:41:34 If not, then you get another value. 09:44:08 In particular, you b256 always sets BASE to 256 depending on BASE value at compile time. 09:45:21 [18:35:45] You can't set base more than 36. <-- winforth uses ascii char set for base 256 09:45:56 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@66-91-231-74.san.rr.com) joined #forth 09:46:03 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja 09:46:20 hm 09:46:37 I updated the PeripheralInterconnectBus page. 09:46:42 I think I have totally found the solution. 09:46:42 That may cause WinForth sources be very non-portable. 09:46:50 Dobryjj vecher, kc5tja! 09:47:13 already figured that would be the case if you go ahead at windows programming 09:47:17 http://www.falvotech.com/cgi/kestrel/PeripheralInterconnectBus solution #2, towards the middle of the page. 09:47:20 but not too worried about that myself 09:47:38 Anyway, I need to get some breakfast in me. 09:47:42 bbiab 09:47:44 qFox. Normally, "digits" are digits and characters. 09:48:07 yes.. 09:48:20 And there's tendency to interprete lower and upper characters to be equal. 09:48:49 yes, thank god winforth isnt case sensitive :p 09:49:16 say what you want, but i hate it. case sensitive coding i mean. 09:49:16 Then how can you enter all 256 digits? 09:49:33 it doesnt seem to accept numbers in base 256, just print them as such 09:51:37 So does mine. 09:51:52 It does not have checks. 09:52:36 but i already changed my code to get rid of the b256 parts, and it was portable to Herkamire, except for the random word :) 09:53:22 Do you know of 36 BASE ! trap? 09:54:18 no? 09:54:32 wouldnt know a reason to use base 36 09:54:56 Your word is always accepted. 09:55:11 oh 09:55:25 ic 09:55:54 It's useful for alphanumeric code. 09:56:46 When you want something alphanumeric be uniquely represented. 09:57:37 In minimal memory amount. 10:03:22 back, briefly. 10:03:35 qfox: With amateur radio callsigns, base 37 (because we include a space) is exceptionally useful. 10:04:00 I can encode any ham radio callsign using two base 37 fields and a single base 10 field, all in 32-bits. 10:04:44 Since callsigns are 6 characters long (maximally), this represents about 33% savings in bits. When you're dealing with 300bps HF or 1200bps VHF communications links, 33% is pretty significant. :-) 10:05:26 :) 10:06:05 Well, in any case of heavy load 1/3 of savings is very significant. 10:06:22 how safe would it be, to put a public bot here, where people can enter,replace definition of words. forth definitions that is, no code bs. 10:06:49 Isn't that what madgarden is trying to do? 10:07:01 i'm sure madgarden will go beyond my project 10:07:09 a interactive forth interpreter bot 10:07:10 mine is merely that. definitions and being able to see them 10:07:11 :P 10:07:18 you wont be able to use them 10:07:21 or anything 10:07:33 Oh. 10:07:37 just !fsee 2dup 10:07:44 and change it if you know a better/faster one 10:08:54 BTW. DEC's operating systems use RADIX-50 encoding for names. 10:08:55 It would be kind of nice to have a Forth word database set up here. 10:09:01 E. g. file names. 10:09:32 yes but how safe would it be? to make it publicly accessible? here... 10:09:34 That means you are close to DEC with your base-37. 10:09:45 qFox: Depends on how safe you write the bot client. 10:09:56 not so much for crashing it etc, but more like changing words for the worse, rather then improving them 10:09:58 * kc5tja nods 10:10:15 qFox: If you let people change the definitions, that's a risk you have to take. 10:10:22 Make COLD unchangeable. 10:10:40 but it would be quite save i guess. i mean, who in here would maliciously insert wrong information? 10:10:44 ASau> i wont define words i cant define myself, or that are core words... 10:10:46 --- nick: networm_ -> networm 10:10:50 Or better yet, mark some words as requiring an administrator to change. 10:11:13 qFox. Make one core word. 10:11:13 since you cant actually use the words, they cant cause any harm at all. like kc5tja said, its a database. nothing more (yet..) 10:11:23 --- join: madgarden (~madgarden@derby.metrics.com) joined #forth 10:11:26 Just to be able to reboot. 10:11:34 it'll be a mirc script, no need :) 10:11:37 i would also insert the core words, with a short description 10:11:43 like' cvs 10:11:50 do it like cv 10:11:51 do it like cvs 10:11:59 arg, sorry, keyboard problems... 10:12:01 yes that'd be possible. but words like , ! etc. 10:12:10 cant be defined in forth, right? 10:12:23 , is defined in Forth. 10:12:31 : , h @ ! 1 cell h +! ; :) 10:12:38 --- part: madgarden left #forth 10:12:44 h is undefined.. 10:12:45 --- join: madgarden (~madgarden@derby.metrics.com) joined #forth 10:12:48 but you know what i mean 10:12:52 variable h 10:12:53 ;D 10:12:59 : here h @ ; 10:13:01 ... USER DP 10:13:05 Hi! 10:13:06 oh ok :) 10:13:11 2 madgardens? 10:13:12 kc5tja. It's called DP usually. 10:13:15 Some words are undeniably system-level words. 10:13:29 Heh, the other one is my at home. 10:13:32 ASau: In cmForth and ColorForth, it's 'h'. I'm used to these environments, since that's what I use most often. 10:13:48 yes, those are the words i mean. you can just add them with something like system-word 10:13:51 Well. 10:14:04 i'll finish the bot so it can take commands on irc and put it here. give it a testrun 10:14:11 dont think anything can go wrong really 10:14:27 qFox: and, if you're willing to store everything as all upper-case characters, you can store them in base-50. :D (pun intended) 10:14:29 madgarden: lunch break? 10:14:45 networm, yep! 10:14:54 :) it'll not be case sensitive for sure :) 10:15:45 kc5tja. 128-32-2 = 94. 10:15:47 ? 10:16:09 the database could maybe also contain which Forthes have (non-standard) words 10:16:19 well 10:16:21 e.g. "h" 10:16:25 you would enter definitions as 10:16:39 : word ( stack ) definition ; \ comment 10:16:49 SQL? 10:16:54 nah plain ini files 10:17:01 very easy in mirc 10:17:49 w00t! Good thing I called in to work today; I go in at 12 instead of 11. 10:18:08 That gives me some extra time to play with. 10:18:21 a whole hour :p 10:19:11 qFox: When you work 25 hours a week at In-N-Out, go to school for another 10 hours, then work up to around 15 hours coding software for an embedded development client, suddenly, 1 hour of free time seems like a royal vacation. 10:19:39 hehe 10:19:48 but didnt you have your own company? 10:19:49 (oh, and then I'm trying to start ForthBox as a business. So add about 10 more hours to that.) 10:20:09 I have Falvo Technical Solutions, through which I'm doing the custom software development project. 10:20:29 But it's not paying squat, because I can't work on it full time. 10:20:43 ic 10:21:04 Even if I did, I really wouldn't be making any more than at In-N-Out. 10:21:22 After taxes, I'm receiving only about $8/hr, which is, unsurprisingly, precisely what I'm making at In-N-Out. 10:21:23 kc5tja. Do you have 8 days a week??? 10:21:29 ASau: 7. 10:22:08 25+15+10 = 50. 10:22:16 7*8 = 56. 10:22:27 You assume I work only 8 hours a day. 10:22:32 I don't. 10:22:48 Sorry? 10:22:57 hehe 10:23:02 You don't have lunch? 10:23:03 Unlike European countries, we Americans have *no* compunctions with over-working employees or students, while giving next to no pay. 10:23:19 Breakfast and supper either? 10:23:19 ASau: There are some days when I only eat two meals a day. Sometimes even only one. 10:23:57 Very,very,very rarely do I ever eat breakfast. 10:24:00 Usually lunch and dinner. 10:24:33 It's better to avoid lunch in favour of breakfast. 10:24:40 I *can't*. 10:25:10 I need at least six hours of sleep to function, and by the time I go to bed, those six hours places me right at the edge of being able to get to school or In-N-Out on time. 10:25:22 Otherwise you bring your stomach to hell. 10:25:42 My stomach was hell when I was first born. 10:25:45 Nothing new for me there. 10:25:47 so now you're gonna waste that hour on explaining how precious that hour actually is? ;) 10:25:57 qFox: I'm freakin' living it up right now. 10:26:01 hehehe 10:26:13 * kc5tja sighs 10:26:19 Sorry. 10:26:25 You folks just don't understand. 10:26:27 I don't understand you. 10:26:32 lol 10:26:50 I'd better not go to school. 10:27:13 If I were you. 10:27:14 ASau: I need to get some kind of degree. Something. Anything. 10:27:25 Well. 10:27:25 Because you just can't get a well-paying job in this country without one. 10:27:34 Do you have exams there? 10:27:43 Exams of what nature? 10:27:57 How do you get degree? 10:28:09 you go to school, and you take a cirriculum of classes. 10:28:11 There should be exams. 10:28:16 of course. 10:28:22 But you can't test your way out of the courses. 10:28:37 You can test past maybe the pre-reqs for some of the classes, but you can't test out of the *whole* thing. 10:28:56 Well. Prepare to exams and reduce going to school to a half or quarter. 10:29:05 ASau: Not possible. 10:29:11 I already tested out of all my pre-reqs. 10:29:22 It's strange. 10:29:27 And I still ahve 4 years of full-time schooling ahead of me (and since I'm only going part-time, times that by two) 10:29:29 Very, very strange. 10:29:49 There is nothing strange about it. 10:30:09 A degree is a certification that you completed a set of educational courses. 10:30:27 If you never attend even one class, the degree is worthless, regardless of how much you actually *know*. 10:30:29 I could visit only 4 classes of 22 before pre-diploma practice. 10:31:15 That's about what do you want more. 10:31:30 To get a degree or to learn. 10:31:41 I want to do both. 10:31:48 The degree is more important though. 10:31:55 I can't live on In-N-Out. 10:32:33 Anyway, you can do both better when you're not tight to schedule. 10:32:49 I mean _regular_ schedule. 10:32:51 ASau: So you're saying I should quit my jobs? Then where am I going to live? 10:33:03 How am I going to eat? 10:33:09