00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.03.25 00:19:19 --- quit: ChanServ (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 00:19:19 --- quit: yeoh (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 00:19:19 --- quit: skylan (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 00:19:19 --- quit: hefner (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 00:19:19 --- quit: fridge (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 00:19:19 --- quit: arke (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 00:20:38 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth 00:20:38 --- join: yeoh (~yeoh@219.95.7.111) joined #forth 00:20:38 --- join: skylan (~sjh@nwc57-102.nwconx.net) joined #forth 00:20:38 --- join: arke (~Chris@wbar8.lax1-4-11-099-104.dsl-verizon.net) joined #forth 00:20:38 --- join: hefner (~hefner@pool-151-196-113-169.balt.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 00:20:38 --- join: fridge (~fridge@dsl-203-33-167-169.NSW.netspace.net.au) joined #forth 00:20:38 --- mode: irc.freenode.net set +o ChanServ 00:28:58 --- join: qFox (C00K13S@cp12172-a.roose1.nb.home.nl) joined #forth 00:29:30 --- part: kc5tja left #forth 00:29:34 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@66-91-231-74.san.rr.com) joined #forth 00:29:35 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja 00:30:13 OK, my work for today is done. 00:30:17 * kc5tja goes to bed now. 00:30:51 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK") 00:33:01 --- quit: Herkamire ("bedtime") 00:35:14 --- quit: madgarden_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 00:35:19 --- join: madgarden_ (~madgarden@Kitchener-HSE-ppp3576712.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 01:01:00 --- quit: yeoh ("User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby") 02:26:10 hmmm 02:28:37 I like the .( commenting style ) 02:28:43 never came across it before heh 02:30:01 .( is not comment... its without the dot 02:39:10 hovil. You don't need it. 02:40:13 It's for debugging purposes in case you have standalone version with no file system. 02:40:26 It's more appropriate there. 02:44:05 which is why I like it 02:46:16 --- quit: ASau () 03:32:10 --- join: ASau (~asau@158.250.48.196) joined #forth 03:32:17 I'm back 04:00:22 YAY! 04:23:04 What happened? 04:53:00 you came back! 04:55:22 Is it so unusual? 05:07:54 --- join: Serg (~z@212.34.52.140) joined #forth 05:08:58 --- quit: hovil ("Leaving") 05:09:09 Dobryjj vecher, Serg! 05:11:12 it's not so good ;)) 05:11:26 my head is like a butt, coz i slept too little ;(( 05:12:01 hmm, how can kc5tja be up and running if he goes to bed after midnight all the time ;(( 05:12:46 kc5tja can be in two places at the same time. 05:12:59 He can be in bed and in IRC at the same time. 05:13:52 And nobody forbids him interrupt his sleep for several minutes. 05:55:21 --- quit: Serg () 06:39:03 --- quit: arke ("Leaving") 08:06:04 --- join: networm (~networm@L0663P08.dipool.highway.telekom.at) joined #forth 08:07:08 --- quit: hefner (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 08:07:29 --- join: hefner (~hefner@pool-151-196-113-169.balt.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 08:30:35 --- part: segher left #forth 08:34:10 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@66-91-231-74.san.rr.com) joined #forth 08:34:21 Dobryjj vecher, kc5tja! 08:34:23 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja 08:34:33 Greetings. 08:39:59 kc5tja. Do you know may I program PICs on PC independently of each other? 08:40:29 I have example code where they are programmed with interleaving commands. 08:40:57 I'd liked to separate. 08:48:11 you guys are braver than I ... I could never mess with that stuff 08:48:50 --- join: Downer (~Devel@dial81-131-225-29.in-addr.btopenworld.com) joined #forth 08:49:44 Dobryjj vecher, Downer! 08:49:54 ehlo :) 08:50:03 warpzero. Just try. 08:50:49 For example, blinking with floppy drive LED is safe. 08:50:53 But it's fun. 08:52:00 lol... 08:52:14 i have to do a little ppc kernel programming i hope i dont fry my hardware 09:11:44 ASau: I don't understand your question. 09:12:05 I have an example for reprogramming PICs. 09:12:06 If you're talking about the programmable interrupt controllers, then you have no choice but to work both PICs. 09:12:10 In C. 09:12:20 One PIC is the slave of the other. 09:12:26 Yes. 09:12:33 I've understood. 09:13:18 I'm in great doubt if I can send a sequence to one of them and a sequence to another. 09:13:39 I guess I don't understand what you mean by 'independently' versus 'interleaved.' 09:14:09 In code I'm reading this sequences are send in parallel: ICW1(m) ICW1(s) ICW2(m) ICW2(s) ... 09:14:40 I'd liked to send them in separate: ICW1 ICW2 ICW3... to master, then to slave. 09:14:55 --- quit: Downer (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 09:15:11 It should be possible to do that, yes. 09:15:13 I'm trying to guess if this is possible. 09:15:29 In Dolphin, when I was writing it, I initialized one PIC chip, then the next. 09:15:41 (sorry; source code has since been lost) 09:16:02 Well. Did it work? 09:16:06 Obviously. 09:16:06 :) 09:16:16 Ura! 09:17:17 That's much better. 09:17:24 One more question. 09:18:05 As I've understood, PIC takes even and odd address. 09:18:29 Does it take any other addresses? 09:18:44 There are only two registers on the chip. 09:18:54 It seems it uses A0 as data. 09:19:00 And they must be programmed in a very specific sequence. 09:19:04 Yes, I was about to get to that. 09:19:31 That's why it must be programmed in a specific sequence; did I mention that Intel's peripheral chip division were morons? 09:21:02 Well. 09:21:10 The only chip they came close to getting right was the 8255 PPI chip. 09:21:29 Using A0 as data has deeply hidden meaning, I think. 09:21:35 I won't even get into their PIT chips. 09:21:54 But I can't discover it. 09:22:03 There is no hidden meaning. 09:22:22 Their engineers were trying to be slick, and to reduce silicon investments for the chip. 09:23:00 However, it ended up probably increasing it, because now the chip needs a full-blown instruction decoder on it, instead of a very simple, very regular address decoder. 09:23:06 --- join: Herkamire (stjohns@h000094d30ba2.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 09:23:25 Dobryjj vecher, Herkamire! 09:23:29 And it made any hope of reading back the chip state futile. 09:23:50 hi ASau 09:24:15 To let folks know, I now have a whole Wiki dedicated to the Kestrel. Helps to keep my wikis organized. :) 09:24:41 I've seen. 09:25:14 The peripheral interconnect bus is still a sticky point for me though. 09:25:43 I'd like to realize a serial bus with fewer pins. Ideally, only 4. 09:26:17 kc5tja. I think Intel engineers possibly decided to use A0 because of 8 bit data bus. 09:26:32 ASau: What does that have to do with anything? 09:27:08 Maybe they didn't want to demultiplex it. 09:27:16 Demultiplex what? 09:27:21 Data bus. 09:27:27 Again, demultiplex what? 09:27:30 There is nothing to demultiplex. 09:27:36 The data bus carries data. 09:27:42 The address bus carries address information. 09:29:48 When muC sits on 8 bit d.b., should it get data someway? When two octets are sent, muC have to recive both. 09:30:29 In case it takes wider data. 09:31:04 Why could not they fit everything in octets, I can't guess. 09:31:46 Why not let the chip have, say, 8 registers, each holding chip configuration data, like every other chip in the world? 09:32:02 Or even 4 registers -- 4 registers would work perfectly too. 09:32:59 Hm. 09:33:02 One of the best things I love about the 6522 VIA chips: they include two timers, a serial port, two parallel ports, and yet only have 16 registers. 09:33:05 Reasonable. 09:33:27 The bus interface is trivial, and programming is a snap. 09:34:03 No need to remember super-cryptic commands, nor is there a distinction between ICWs and OCWs. If you want to change the operating mode of the 6522, you just "do it" by poking new values into its registers. 09:34:18 Maybe, they've got tight address space? 09:35:15 But 4K devices should be sufficient... 09:36:05 I just don't buy that explanation. In fact, I can't even *begin* to guess at why Intel decided to bork up that chip like that. 09:36:25 Of all of Intel's peripheral chips, that is the *single* hardest chip I've ever had to program. 09:36:30 And I've programmed a lot of Intel peripheral chips. 09:36:37 Even their DMA controller is easier than that chip. 09:37:07 For that matter, so is their PIT, and that's another chip whose design was better left in the trash bin. 09:37:36 Yeah. DMA is another one mess. 09:38:07 There is a special place in hell exclusively reserved for Intel's chip engineers and marketers. 09:38:32 Crap, I have to get ready for school. 09:49:27 --- join: I440r (~Mark4@64.47.44.254) joined #forth 09:53:25 Dobryjj vecher, I440r! 09:53:58 !! :) 10:03:40 Hey 10:10:26 --- quit: fridge (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 10:17:51 hi 10:17:54 <-- working hard 10:17:57 for a change lol 10:18:24 :P 10:18:40 A guy just lent me some radio equipment 10:18:49 So I can soon start transmitting my poor morse code ;) 10:25:03 Goodbye! 10:25:06 --- quit: ASau () 11:24:54 --- join: AldoBR (jorgealdo@200.141.168.96) joined #forth 11:25:05 good night 11:43:30 bye 11:51:03 --- join: SDO (~SDO@68.170.20.253) joined #forth 12:18:07 --- quit: networm ("Client exiting") 12:22:58 --- quit: SDO (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 12:34:29 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 12:34:44 Hi 12:35:50 Hi, Robert 12:56:28 --- part: l0C0 left #forth 13:09:46 --- join: fridge (~fridge@dsl-203-33-167-169.NSW.netspace.net.au) joined #forth 13:57:28 stop idling! 13:57:31 talk forth 13:57:32 dammit :) 13:58:59 what would we want to do that for? ;) 14:00:20 "what" is undefined. 14:00:30 error at line 1. 14:16:24 --- quit: AldoBR (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 14:28:02 --- join: networm (~networm@L0662P30.dipool.highway.telekom.at) joined #forth 14:42:21 --- quit: I440r ("Leaving") 14:53:27 hmmmm 14:54:39 nm 14:57:08 --- join: arke (~Chris@wbar8.lax1-4-11-099-104.dsl-verizon.net) joined #forth 14:57:29 you know what we need 14:57:37 fish-flavored jello 14:58:21 Of course. 14:58:32 and pie. 14:58:45 no 14:58:50 fish-flavored is priority 14:58:58 warm, fish flavored jello 14:59:07 (you see where I'm going with this?) 14:59:35 no. my mind is blurred for pie. 15:13:32 i had some great ideas today, dealing with 'presentations' of objects 15:14:01 --- join: Robert_ (~snofs@c-2c5a71d5.17-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) joined #forth 15:28:45 if i'm in 256 mode, why wont it accept 3133 as a number? 15:28:51 sorry, base 256 15:29:34 winforth uses the ascii table for base 256, but it tells me 3133 is undefined ... :\ 15:29:45 --- quit: Robert (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 15:30:36 --- join: Mark4 (~Mark4@64.47.44.254) joined #forth 15:38:49 --- join: matt_ (1000@adsl-64-160-166-88.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 15:38:54 --- nick: matt_ -> Sonarman 15:49:23 qFox - how many significant bits does your BASE have? 15:54:37 ehm 15:54:52 not sure what you're asking 15:54:53 :) 15:55:03 --- join: blockhead (default@dialin-805-tnt.nyc.bestweb.net) joined #forth 15:55:41 qFox - how many bits would you need to represent base-10 256? 15:55:43 : b256 ( -- ) decimal 256 base ! ; 15:55:52 oh 15:55:56 in, say, unsigned two's-complement. 15:56:02 um. 15:56:06 8 15:56:11 : b256 [ decimal 256 ] LITERAL base ! ; 15:56:26 mind explaining? 15:56:27 :) 15:56:35 explaining what? 15:56:45 well, lets see 15:57:05 the [ ] are compiler instructions, and replaces the "decimal 256" with just the number, right? 15:57:23 I don't understand 'compiler instructions', sorry. 15:57:31 um 15:57:41 alright, what do [ ] do? :) 15:57:53 swtich into and out of compiler mode 15:57:55 sort of 15:57:59 no, not 'compiler mode'. 15:58:10 qFox - you should probably ask a tutorial about that. 15:58:24 [ stops compileing for a bit so you can calculate and do immediate things 15:58:27 also -- explaining what? Do you have any other questions? 15:58:28 ] resumes compiling 15:58:32 block - no, it doesn't do that. 15:58:49 * blockhead is probably leaving an important detail out though :( 15:58:54 and what does literal do... 15:59:14 literal? dunno. 15:59:36 : foo 1 ; : bar [ 1 ] literal ; SEE foo SEE bar 16:00:24 the same. 16:00:25 so, i guess my question is why 16:00:29 decimal 11 base ! : foo decimal 256 ; : bar [ decimal 256 ] literal ; SEE foo SEE bar 16:00:32 why what? 16:00:49 i can understand [], but whats literal for? 16:01:05 huh? where do you see [], ? 16:01:15 bar [ 1 ] l 16:01:24 oh, you mean [ and ] 16:01:32 .... yes 16:01:52 the ANSI Forth standard describes LITERAL 16:02:40 but, in short, it extends the current colon-definition with code to place a number (drawn from the stack at compile-time) on the stack at run-time. 16:03:10 ayrnieu, i wrote an inspector for factor 16:03:14 thank you 16:03:14 gforth has an abbreviation: : ]L postpone ] postpone literal ; immediate 16:03:41 : b256 256 base ! ; 16:03:44 slava - a SEE word? I seem to remember you writing that some time ago. 16:03:50 same thing 16:04:00 ayrnieu, no, more than that 16:04:01 decimal : b256 base ! ; \ probably makes the most sense 16:04:08 : b256 [ decimal 256 ] base ; 16:04:10 ayrnieu, inspecting any object and its slots 16:04:10 ? 16:04:12 ayrnieu, like lisp 16:04:14 : b256 256 base ! ; 16:04:19 slava - oh, nifty. 16:04:41 blockhead - that may not even compile, depending on the implementation. It certainly violates ANSI Forth restrictions. 16:04:56 actuaaly what I wrote there might be overcomplicated. never mind 16:05:10 where by 'overcomplicated' you want 'wrong'. 16:05:35 ayrnieu, also i noticed my 'words' are really the same as lisp 'symbols' 16:05:50 ANSI Forth's ; expects the same stack as provided by : -- many Forths maintain state on the data stack during compilation 16:05:56 ayrnieu, each word is an object with a name and a property list; some are 'internalized' in a dictionary object. 16:06:12 slava - oh, nifty =) 16:06:33 but can you tell me the difference, other then 0.1 ms in speed, for : b256 decimal 256 base ! ; and : b256 [ decimal 256 ] LITERAL base ! ; 16:07:24 qFox: you don't need to compile the decimal into the word 16:07:39 ok, but thats just speed... 16:07:40 qFox - of course you can, and speed has nothing to do with it. 16:07:59 qFox - no, what tathi said has nothing, again, to do with speed. 16:08:08 qFox - those two words have wildly different semantics. 16:08:14 what? 16:08:29 decimal : b256 256 base ! ; 16:08:41 and : b256 [ decimal 256 ] literal base ! ; 16:08:45 e.g., the first changes BASE at runtime, the second changes base at compiletime. The first does whatever NUMBER? can make of 256 at compiletime, the second compiles base-10 256 16:08:46 should compile to EXACTLY the same thing 16:09:20 tathi - eh, sure, but please consider what qFox actually said. 16:09:42 tathi - and given you 'you don't need to compile the decimal into the word', I don't know how you missed what qFox said in the first place. 16:09:47 given your. 16:10:43 hmmmm still speed imo, but i understand your point 16:10:54 qFox: they're just two different ways to write the same thing 16:10:58 no, it has absolutely nothing to do with speed. They do ENTIRELY DIFFERENT THINGS 16:11:15 tathi - please stop emitting these horrible lies. 16:11:17 yours doesnt change the base to 10 before changing it to 256, mine does? 16:11:27 at runtime 16:11:39 qFox: right 16:11:52 so how is yours slower or equally fast as mine? :\ 16:11:57 and how is the result different? 16:12:08 qFox - yours changes BASE at runtime, which has absolutely nothing to do with how the three x-base digits get considered by NUMBER? at compiletime and everything to do with the value of BASE after your definition returns. 16:12:15 qFox - STOP TALKING ABOUT SPEED. 16:12:30 hmm 16:13:37 decimal 11 base ! : foo decimal 256 base ! ; : bar [ decimal 256 ]L base ! ; : bb base @ . ; BB foo . BB bar . BB 16:13:39 i'm sure you're right, but that doesnt feel natural :\ 16:14:12 yes you're saying the compiler doesnt switch to base 10 before interperting the 256, which is what i tried 16:14:23 (right?) 16:15:08 sigh, please consider that example and answer yourself. 16:16:03 and you may want to learn about how NUMBER? works. Consider: decimal : 256 1 ; : foo 256 . ; FOO 16:17:19 or, given an UNDEFINE ( "name" -- ) that removes a word from the dictionary, UNDEFINE drop decimal 256 base ! : bizarre 1 2 drop . ; 16:17:30 hm, yes would have been fine you know :\ and you're right i dont know how number? works, yet. didnt expect the word to be compiled that way at all (obviously). 16:17:34 eh, by which I mean 36 base ! 16:19:16 ayrnieu: what forth are you using? 16:20:20 tathi - gforth, generally, or Quartus Forth or Dragon Forth on the PalmOS, rarely. I don't think any of these have that UNDEFINE 16:20:20 now dont be going mad, but if i have : 256 1 ; ,wont the compiler take the word over the number as well? 16:21:01 qFox - yes. 16:21:40 hm, then what did you mean by that example? 16:21:47 by what example? 16:22:01 ahhh. gotcha 16:22:03 or was it just that, that it tries to make a word out of it first, then a number, then an error? 16:22:05 --- quit: Herkamire (Remote closed the connection) 16:22:08 --- join: Herkamire (stjohns@h000094d30ba2.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 16:22:15 qFox - I have no idea what you ask, sorry. 16:22:23 [01:16:00] and you may want to learn about how NUMBER? works. Consider: decimal : 256 1 ; : foo 256 . ; FOO 16:22:33 yes, what about it? 16:22:59 what conclusion am i supposed to draw from it? 16:23:04 --- quit: warpzero (Excess Flood) 16:23:55 --- join: warpzero (~warpzero@dsl.142.mt.onewest.net) joined #forth 16:24:14 I didn't intend for you to draw any particularly conclusion from it. Do you have any questions about it? 16:24:21 also, particular. 16:25:20 hmmmm, ok i guess not. nevermind. 16:25:26 qFox - the outer interpreter lets NUMBER? try to make sense of anything it stumbles across that it can't find in the dictionary. 16:25:51 yes, i understand that concept 16:26:46 is that all that number? does? :) 16:27:12 attempt to create a number in the current base from what the interpreter gives it 16:27:21 some people extend NUMBER? to implement other kinds of literal data, such as Forth strings and C strings and complex numbers and like. ciforth, IIRC, has a vocabulary containing words named after the initial letter of their corresponding literal -- e.g., 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 " ' =) 16:28:04 qFox - the ANSI Forth standard can offer you a precise definition, as can, perhaps, SEE NUMBER? 16:28:32 oh wow, actual forth code. :) 16:29:15 sorry, almost anything i see in winforth is CODE 16:29:36 gforth has less of that. 16:30:04 yes but lacks in gui :) 16:30:13 qFox, can you post some winforth screenshots? 16:31:38 winforth ? 16:32:07 yes 16:33:22 http://members.home.nl/qfox/wforth.jpg 16:34:47 qFox, that's a huge-ass 3dup! 16:34:51 although the editor has a few glitches 16:34:56 hehe 16:35:11 i made that one when i hadnt checked either one wasnt already defined, and it was :p 16:35:25 i tried to not use pick etc 16:35:29 thats why its huge 16:35:41 : 3dup-alt ( n1 n2 n3 -- n1 n2 n3 n1 n2 n3 ) 2 pick 2 pick 2 pick ; \ shorter method :p 16:35:44 : 3dup >r 2dup r@ -rot r> ; 16:35:47 the line you juuust dont see 16:36:24 ayrnieu: Nice :) 16:36:53 ~<< 3dup n1 n2 n3 -- n1 n2 n3 n1 n2 n3 >>~ 16:36:55 even nicer :) 16:37:15 slava: suck it :) 16:37:46 ~<< 3dup A B C -- A B C a b c >>~ seems a bit more readable, though you hardly need that with the name =) 16:38:24 ayrnieu, the ~<< >>~ is like : and ; they contain the *Definition*! 16:39:08 aye, I remember =) 16:44:05 qFox: do you know about the VIEW word> 16:44:06 ? 16:44:15 yes it opens the editor :p 16:44:43 or at least thats how i open the editor... i'm sure there's another way to open it 16:45:34 i much prefer it to SEE :) 16:45:53 oh yes, but when i quickly want to see a definition i just use see 16:46:02 as in winforth its usually code anyways it doesnt really matter 16:46:07 it'll be code in the editor as well anyways 16:47:36 * blockhead kicks his forth. arrgh 16:48:01 blockhead, how's your forth going? 16:48:17 I'm getting swamped. 16:48:25 well i'm using winforth because its, for me, the best gui i've seen so far. if i encounter one with a better gui i'll probably switch (undo in the editor is bugggged :( ) 16:48:31 every time I write one word, I find that I need to write four or so supporting words 16:48:38 then it recurses. 16:48:46 :) 16:48:54 * blockhead brain is tired. enough forth for today 16:49:25 how many words in a typical forth? 16:49:54 whats typical :/ 16:50:06 your wirting winforth ? 16:50:37 i need to add packages soon 16:50:43 496 words just in factor itself 16:50:52 1039 if you could the game too 16:51:26 winforth has 3181 words in its system dictionary :) 16:51:39 that's insane 16:51:42 ! 16:51:47 isforth has... er.... ive no idea lol 16:51:52 WINforth... nuf said ;) 16:52:04 qFox: yeah, good point. :D 16:52:06 (sorry for the trolling) 16:52:25 my "words" doesnt give a word count 16:52:35 i can type: 16:52:37 words length . 16:52:39 :-) 16:52:53 winforth shows it on load. dunno how he does it 16:53:49 oh 16:53:50 i lied 16:53:52 Mark: did you write an article titled "The Forth Sort" for the Dr. Dobbs Forth Handbook? 16:53:56 3,181 Words in Application dictionary 16:53:57 1,689 Words in System dictionary 16:54:00 no my father did 16:54:06 you have seen that ? 16:54:21 yeah, there's a thread on clf about it :) 16:54:35 about the book, not the article itself, i mean 16:54:39 about doctor dobs... not about the sort tho is it ? 16:54:44 right 16:54:55 i have that book here with me but it belongs to my dad 16:55:23 you have a copy of that book then ? 16:55:27 which edition ? 16:55:31 did he make you learn it? ;) 16:55:40 no 16:55:47 he introduced me and i learned it myself :) 16:55:56 i know more about it than him now 16:56:07 heh :) 16:56:42 i don't have a copy, it's just that the TOC was listed in the thread 16:56:51 aha 17:06:32 --- join: thin (~futhin@csnet044.cariboo.bc.ca) joined #forth 17:06:33 --- mode: ChanServ set +o thin 17:07:18 huge hefner eh? i want to hang out in that grotto with all the playboy bunnies 17:07:24 s/huge/hugh 17:07:25 bah 17:08:58 stupid freudian slips 17:10:27 --- nick: madgarden_ -> madgarden 17:10:29 mmm forthbox.. sweet! 17:13:32 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 17:15:29 LOL 17:24:47 :) 17:39:06 --- join: pedro (~pedro@c-67-164-7-7.client.comcast.net) joined #forth 17:40:44 --- part: pedro left #forth 17:50:24 fly by :/ 17:50:46 --- join: matt_ (1000@adsl-64-160-166-251.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 17:50:52 Back. 17:50:58 --- quit: Sonarman (Nick collision from services.) 17:51:02 --- nick: matt_ -> Sonarman 17:51:07 hi kc5tja 17:53:19 For the record, [ does stop the compiler and engage the interpretter, and ] does switch back to compilation mode. 17:53:42 For more details, refer to, oh, just about *any* Forth standard, from Forth 79, Forth 83, FIG, cmForth, and ANSI Forth for details. 17:54:35 re thin 17:54:48 bbl, rebooting 17:54:59 hi kc5tja 17:55:00 --- quit: Mark4 ("Leaving") 17:55:16 kc5tja: good to know I had that much right :P 17:56:04 I'm not sure how the myth that [ and ] work differently got started 17:56:22 But it needs (yes, needs) to stop. 17:56:27 people saw factor code and freaked out 17:56:44 kc5tja - to what myth do you refer? 17:56:54 [ and ] are essential parts of most Forth systems, and are often critical in implementing the very compiler itself. 17:56:57 * blockhead watches kc5tja tar and feather slava :D 17:57:17 ayrnieu: To your reference, way earlier in the day, that [ and ] do not behave as described by blockhead. 17:57:37 ack 17:57:44 anybody know a very good SDL alternative? 17:57:52 with multi-window support? 17:57:56 kc5tja - eh, you call a 'myth' that 'needs to stop' your own misinterpretation of one thing that I said? Bizarre. 17:58:00 arke: DirectFB? DirectX? 17:58:11 DirectX != portable 17:58:16 win32? xlib? =D 17:58:17 ayrnieu: You're not the only one who promulgated that information. So somehow, it's being spread. 17:58:21 And it's total misinformation. 17:58:55 arke: Well, we're rapidly running out of options. 17:59:09 arke: Allegro perhaps? No idea, never used it. But I understand a few games have been made with it. 17:59:23 hrm... 17:59:26 kc5tja - no, I never spread that misinformation -- and please use 'myth' more carefully in the future. 17:59:33 allegro, heard lots of good things abour ir 18:00:02 ayrnieu: Or else what? It is a myth. It's untrue, and yet it's promulgated as if it was fact. Sounds awfully like a myth to me. 18:02:01 kc5tja - 'myth' does not usefully refer to 'a single instant of misinformation', and the latter certainly doesn't work well with 'needs to stop' in the context of a 'myth'. If you don't understand this, I'd advise you not to use the word 'myth' at all. You can get along with "blockhead: ayrnieu was wrong about such-and-such", which at least clues me in. 18:02:18 (not, mind you, that I said any such thing) 18:02:23 "Allegro lets you define your own object types by writing new dialog procedures, so you can take complete control over the visual aspects of the interface while still using Allegro to handle input from the mouse, keyboard, joystick, etc." 18:03:40 15:55 < qFox> alright, what do [ ] do? :) 18:03:40 15:55 < blockhead> swtich into and out of compiler mode 18:03:40 15:55 < blockhead> sort of 18:03:40 15:55 < ayrnieu> no, not 'compiler mode'. 18:03:40 15:55 < ayrnieu> qFox - you should probably ask a tutorial about that. 18:03:43 15:55 < blockhead> [ stops compileing for a bit so you can calculate and do immediate things 18:03:45 15:55 < ayrnieu> also -- explaining what? Do you have any other questions? 18:03:48 15:55 < blockhead> ] resumes compiling 18:03:51 15:56 < ayrnieu> block - no, it doesn't do that. 18:03:53 Looks like it to me. 18:03:55 kc5 - I've ignored you for a bit. 18:04:06 kc5tja: I just cheked my ignore list. He is there, right next to "cleverdra". 18:04:21 uh, uhoh :\ i'm innocent plzdontkillme 18:04:28 blockhead: Doesn't matter -- I'm ignored by him anyhow. 18:04:52 hehe 18:04:54 man 18:05:32 kc5tja> whats the odd space with the nicknames? 18:05:45 oh 18:05:52 @+% prefix? 18:05:55 qFox: It's a place holder for status indicators. @ is there for ops, v for thsoe with voice, etc. 18:06:02 evil :) 18:06:09 that would so annoy me 18:06:14 I don't even notice it. 18:06:33 ;0 18:06:35 ;0 18:06:39 * kc5tja is alread in a bad enough mood; my sunroof on my car won't close because it derailed off its tracks. >:( 18:06:49 :) 18:06:55 heh 18:07:12 So now I have to get *THAT* fixed -- more fucking money that I just don't have to spend. >:( 18:08:00 fix it yourself 18:08:00 :) 18:08:10 arke: I lack the tools and the experience. 18:08:17 I almost certainly will fuck it up worse than it already is. 18:08:46 ): 18:08:56 * kc5tja already tried to take the roof covering off, and failed miserably. Son of a **$#@$&* won't come off. Some kind of weird tool is apparently needed. 18:09:43 Even then, after all is said and done, then I need to figure out how all those little, tiny parts all go together to make the working rail system. 18:09:47 * kc5tja sighs 18:09:56 :( 18:15:20 oh man 18:15:27 allegro is like the assembly of game libraries :P 18:15:36 What do you mean? 18:15:55 its got EVERYTHING 18:16:07 or rather, it allows EVERYTHING 18:17:48 Well, I'm going to go back to work on the Kestrel. 18:17:54 have fun 18:18:09 I have no idea how I'm actually going to pull off the serial bus. 18:18:27 And I have no idea how I'm going to fit everything onto only one board with the software tools that I have. 18:18:59 And, therefore, I have no idea how I'm going to get the price to fall below $100. 18:19:02 If it's even possible at this point. 18:21:20 --- quit: thin (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 18:22:14 Attention to those who are interested in the ForthBox Kestrel: 18:22:39 I have formerly announced that the Kestrel was going to be a single-board computer solution; everythin fitting on one printed circuit board, small enough to fit in a shoe-box. 18:22:46 --- quit: Sonarman ("Lost terminal") 18:23:10 However, the problem I'm having is that my software isn't letting me do that: with the free, evaluation version that I have, I can only do 100mm*80mm boards. 18:23:10 --- join: matt_ (1000@adsl-64-160-166-251.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 18:23:16 --- nick: matt_ -> Sonarman 18:23:17 This means I need to use multiple PC boards. 18:23:36 Does anyone object to this happening? 18:23:40 hm, so anyone wanna crash someone's msn? they aint even gonna release a patch for it. i mean, duh? is that sending me the message to just post the exploit howto on boards and show them right? or what... 18:23:59 It does drive the cost of the circuit up somewhat, since now I need to have cabling running between the various boards and connectors to bind them. 18:24:21 kc5tja - curiously, how much does the non-evaluation version of that software cost? 18:24:52 ayrnieu: An amazingly affordable $600, which I can't afford to drop right now. The license is, as far as I can tell, indefinite: e.g., no yearly renewal fees. 18:25:20 kc5tja: gnutella :) 18:25:39 arke: Doesn't work. The binary I have *is* actually the full-blown software. 18:25:51 But the license file you register it with determines what features are enabled or disabled. 18:25:58 hmmm kc5tja what was the name of that program? 18:26:07 kc5tja: whats the name? 18:26:23 I already tried a known-good key that someone let me 'borrow' for a period long enough to get this working. But apparently, the CAD package talks to home base, and it corrupts my files as a result. 18:26:23 kc5tja - oh, sigh. I could donate $50 to that (next month), though, if you want to set up a fund-raiser of some kind. 18:26:40 arke: EagleCAD, by http://www.cadsoft.de 18:26:51 good old german company.... 18:26:51 (and to qfox too) 18:26:55 lemme see if I got something 18:26:56 hmmm 18:27:09 amazingly enough, i cant... 18:27:10 find it 18:27:39 kc5tja, what about that other place... with "ExpressPCB"? 18:27:41 I'm not so much asking for donations. 18:27:41 oh 18:27:47 --- join: blockhead_ (default@dialin-142-tnt.nyc.bestweb.net) joined #forth 18:27:52 kc5tja> how big is it? is it like a cd? or more like 5mb? 18:27:59 madgarden: They're a winblows program. no Linux support planned. 18:28:19 There is a spider climbing all over the wall here. I can see it out of the corner of my eye. It's driving me a bit further insane. 18:28:25 qFox: How big is what? The program? The program as a whole is something like 12MB uncompressed. But like I said, I already have that. 18:28:33 yea i know 18:28:35 kc5tja, nuts. 18:28:46 kc5tja - I didn't read you as so asking, but I figure that it'd only make for a nicer product later :-/ 18:31:47 Right now, if I go the separate board route, I'll have three different boards: the CPU and bus controller board, the ROM and RAM board, and the I/O board. 18:34:14 --- quit: blockhead (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 18:34:23 --- nick: blockhead_ -> blockhead 18:34:24 --- quit: slava (Remote closed the connection) 18:35:31 Also, I'm thinking of making the computer more like the Commodore 64/128, where the basic buses are present, but none of the standard peripherals are there (well, obviously, the keyboard and mouse ports will be there, but that's it). 18:35:38 That is, no IDE interface, no serial interface, etc. 18:35:45 These would exist as separate devices. 18:35:58 That would help compensate for the cost of the basic unit. 18:36:56 What would be your thoughts on following this route? 18:37:02 When you make some cash with the Kestrel 1.0 you could upgrade your software, upgrade the kit, reduce the price, and go from there. 18:37:41 madgarden: That is precisely my plan. 18:37:56 I've already hinted at a Kestrel+ and Kestrel-II in the past. 18:38:30 go for roman... a + will end up in +++++++++++++++++ :p 18:38:55 * kc5tja was actually thinking of using more model-number-ish things. 18:39:02 Kestrel Gold Pro XTREME! 18:39:06 Like, the first generation Kestrel would be the Kestrel 10 or something. 18:39:09 hehe 18:39:24 Such that the updated version would be the K-10CR (Cost Reduced), then maybe a K-20, etc. 18:39:29 kestrel ultra mega v2.345 18:40:51 But, I need to know what people feel about it, because people here, in this very channel, have complained vociferously about it having only *one* IDE port, or *one* RS-232 port. Now it won't have *ANY* built-in to the motherboard. You'll have to purchase those things separately. 18:41:03 s/it won't/it wouldn't/ 18:41:31 It makes a lot of sense to do it this way for the IDE interface, because the IDE harddrives take more power than the Kestrel's designated wall-wart power supply can provide. 18:42:37 That would drop the cost of the unit down to, I'm guessing, around US$80. 18:42:50 in raw parts. Profit margin would probably bring the price up to close to $100 again. 18:44:29 Which is why I'm putting so much effort into the computer's peripheral interconnect bus standard. It needs to be done right the first time, as best as possible. 19:03:17 --- join: Sonarman_ (1000@adsl-64-171-255-213.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 19:03:17 --- quit: Sonarman (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 19:09:03 * blockhead sighs. my forth is now 2697 bytes. porky :/ 19:09:19 :D 19:10:41 a better programmer would have made it smaller 19:11:16 I hardly consider that something to be ashamed of. 19:11:27 still, I should not complaine. Division works. and strlen. and the signed and unsigned number printing 19:12:01 I'm not ashamed. I just know it could be smaller 19:14:05 --- quit: qFox ("if at first you dont succeed, quit again") 19:14:33 --- join: arke_ (~Chris@wbar8.lax1-4-11-099-104.dsl-verizon.net) joined #forth 19:14:33 --- quit: arke_ (Client Quit) 19:20:20 Just did a price chart using ExpressPCB's prices. 19:20:57 For less than 25 to 30 units (I haven't solved the linear inequality to be precise yet), ordering the PCBs without the solder mask and placement mask is cheaper. 19:21:19 But beyond that point, as quantities exceed 30, the PCBs with solder masks and placement masks end up being cheaper. 19:21:23 Interesting. :) 19:22:07 Anyway, I'm going to grab some food. 19:22:11 be back in a bit. 19:30:21 --- quit: blockhead (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 19:30:22 --- join: default_ (default@dialin-248-tnt.nyc.bestweb.net) joined #forth 19:31:09 --- quit: default_ (Client Quit) 19:31:18 --- quit: hefner ("I'm the operator with my pocket calculator") 19:37:06 --- quit: Sonarman_ (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 19:39:02 --- join: yeoh (~yeoh@219.95.27.124) joined #forth 20:09:44 back 20:09:53 Though, I'll be cooking shortly. 20:16:07 Mmm, baked kc5tja. 20:17:47 --- join: ASau (~asau@158.250.48.196) joined #forth 20:17:54 Dobre jitro! 20:23:33 Good... morning I think! 20:31:09 :) 20:39:06 So, I've been planting the Forthy scripting seed at my new job. 20:48:42 Hehe 20:49:24 I think it could save the QA department a HELL of a lot of effort. 20:49:44 The last time I proposed something like that for the company I worked for, I found myself looking for another job. 20:50:03 (well, not *directly* for that, but heaven forbid we keep on a person who can save the company some seriously big bucks) 20:50:07 Heh. 20:50:12 Be careful of what you suggest, and to whom. 20:51:04 Yea, wouldn't want to ruffle any feathers. This place doesn't seem to operate that way, though. 20:51:30 That's cool. 20:51:33 You're lucky. 20:54:14 IE. this division is purely a development house, no other corporate shenanigans going on there. So, we code, we meet deadlines, we don't feel the eyes of the corporate managers glaring contemptuously at the geek-freaks. 20:59:00 * kc5tja more or less kinda sorta worked in QA for Hifn. 20:59:27 So I saw both sides: the developers (who couldn't to save their lives), and the management team (who actually did quite a respectable job!). 20:59:39 Still, as soon as I mentioned Forth, I got reamed 21:03:35 --- quit: ChanServ (Shutting Down) 21:13:23 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth 21:13:23 --- mode: irc.freenode.net set +o ChanServ 21:30:43 kc5tja. What do you think of distributed VCS? 21:30:53 VCS? 21:31:04 Version control system. 21:31:27 I think it's a good idea, myself. Why do you ask? 21:31:50 I'm reading docs on various DVCS... 21:32:14 I think, it'd be good to move under one. 21:32:24 wheeeeeeee 21:32:24 Especially I like DARCS. 21:32:30 first time i moderated /. :) 21:33:01 * kc5tja has heard some good things about DARCS. 21:33:24 * kc5tja currently uses GNU/Arch, but will probably consider researching and using DARCS for his next project, just to try it out. 21:34:08 Two bad points are: 21:34:15 I've heard that DARCS has all of the goodness of arch and none of arch's complexity. 21:34:17 it requires Haskell 21:34:25 and it is heavy 21:34:45 One of good points is 21:35:00 it's much lighter than other DVCS. 21:35:16 Does it only require Haskell? Or GHC? 21:35:19 That seems to me. 21:35:31 GHC is Haskell compiler. 21:35:43 Yes, I know. Does it only require Haskell or does it require GHC? 21:35:53 It requires GHC. 21:36:02 OK =) Just curious. 21:36:12 GHC == GNU Haskell Compiler? 21:36:15 I have not looked into what it requires in addition. 21:36:27 AFAIR, "glorious." 21:36:29 kc5 - Glasgow Haskell Compiler. 21:36:37 Ah. 21:36:49 I'm wrong. 21:36:55 You define GHC as a 'Haskell compiler' about as easily a you can define GCC as a 'C compiler', but I think that the former more easily restricts itself to Haskell98 than GCC to any C standard =) 21:37:10 asau - I've heard 'Glorious', as well, but www.haskell.org/ghc/ says Glasgow 21:37:39 ayrnieu. I do not know details for today. 21:37:57 asau - I don't follow you, sorry. 21:38:09 I only have read manuals. 21:39:34 It represents my usual problems arisen when I want to share anything. 21:40:08 I have several patches, but I'm lazy to generate diff and send it. 21:41:29 Also, I become afraid of all this, when I think of this process as _regular_. 21:42:10 And I don't like idea of central server. 21:42:55 I've seen several servers' crashes. 21:42:57 I don't like them. 21:44:25 So I think DARCS "patches" is good enough way to partially share my sources. 21:45:22 BTW, I don't like wiki for the same reason as CVS server. 21:45:43 I can go down any moment. 21:45:56 It... 21:54:41 I love Wikis. 21:54:45 * arke is away: bbl 21:54:58 I find their convenience and organizational capabilities far outweigh their relative problems. 21:55:09 Otherwise, I do agree. 21:55:14 * arke is away: bbl 21:55:19 * kc5tja is personally a fan of BBSes myself. 21:55:34 In particular Citadel BBSes; they are the closest to a cross between a blog and a wiki. 21:58:55 Wiki looks to me as cross-linked set of pages, just like I have on my disc, but on _single_server_somewhere_there_. 21:59:50 In particular, it's hard to download wiki site for local work. 22:01:09 Provided the same functionality and returning information into network. 22:10:37 Wiki is more than just a set of cross-linked pages. It's a set of cross-linked pages using a markup that is markedly easier to use than raw HTML. 22:10:44 But that's a technicality. 22:11:08 --- join: Serg (~z@212.34.52.140) joined #forth 22:11:09 The problem with keeping materials local is that they get out of sync incredibly easily. 22:11:35 Hmm... I need to revise my serial bus a bit; I forgot a handshake line. :) 22:11:42 I have two of the three needed. 22:11:43 :) 22:13:29 USB or RS232 ? 22:14:22 http://www.falvotech.com/cgi/kestrel/PeripheralInterconnectBus , design #1 22:15:31 hmm... can HTTP protocol get file size be4 download ? 22:16:10 * Serg is sick of multi-megabyte guestbooks w/ only one worth message 22:16:18 If server emits "Content-Length" header. 22:16:57 kc5tja. I know of this sync problem. 22:17:15 That's why I'm interested in _distributed_ VCS. 22:18:02 Dobroe utro, Serg! 22:18:48 It looks everyone is switching to summer time. 22:20:43 * Serg wants RS-232 or USB 22:20:57 or FireWire 22:21:38 RS-232 preferrably - cheaper, many devices do exist 22:21:53 additional devices may be built by hobbysts 22:22:32 kc5tja: what devices do exist for your planned serial protocol ? 22:22:51 what if i want to plug modem or mice into the kit ? 22:24:20 --- join: networm_ (~networm@L0649P20.dipool.highway.telekom.at) joined #forth 22:24:31 Dobre jitro, networm! 22:26:42 --- log: started forth/04.03.25 22:26:42 --- join: clog (~nef@bespin.org) joined #forth 22:26:43 --- topic: 'A channel dedicated to the Forth programming language, its implementation, its application, and its philosophy. :: UPDATE: Those interested in the up-coming ForthBox Kestrel home computer kit are invited to review the Kestrel's very own Wiki at http://www.falvotech.com/cgi/kestrel' 22:26:43 --- topic: set by kc5tja on [Wed Mar 24 23:46:33 2004] 22:26:43 --- names: list (clog networm_ Serg @ChanServ ASau yeoh warpzero Herkamire Robert_ arke networm fridge @kc5tja madgarden skylan OrngeTide TreyB ianp cmeme Fractal mur chandler ayrnieu) 22:26:46 Serg: There will be an integral PS/2 port set for keyboard and mouse on the motherboard. 22:27:00 hmm.... 22:27:02 Serg: as for modems and the like, I will release RS-232 ports that plug into the PIB. 22:27:12 aha ! 22:27:34 why not ISA and cards ? 22:27:35 (yes, the PS/2 ports are also PIB devices; however, they happen to sit on the motherboard pre-bundled. The computer is pretty useless without them!) 22:27:40 Serg: $$$$$ 22:28:09 ISA is (1) very expensive to add to the board, (2) parts are diminishing *rapidly*, and (3) takes up HHUUGGEE amoutns of PC board space, thus costing even more money than parts alone. 22:29:18 Also, the 65816 only has an 8-bit wide data bus; thus, I'd be able to only implement the 8-bit subset of the ISA standard, which means I can use only 25% of the cards that still exist today. 22:29:31 And where I live, you just plain can't find *a single ISA card anywhere* anymore. 22:29:52 --- quit: networm (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 22:30:02 ha-ha-ha ! 22:30:27 here many folks refrain from P-IV coz of old excellent modems and sounds ;)) 22:30:44 The serial port also has another advantage: devices made for the Kestrel can work on other ForthBox computers, even if they don't use the same CPU. 22:31:22 so, u gonna use 9pin wire as inner extension bus, instead of PCI or ISA ? 22:31:26 I wouldn't want to go back to ISA anyway for the PC; it's a horrible, horrible architecture. 22:31:44 Serg: It's looking that way. 22:32:04 There are other serial port technologies I can use, and I'd like to document them on the site first before deciding on one. 22:32:13 But the IEEE-488-based bus appears to be the way to go. 22:32:41 nice and cheap, but may be bottleneck 22:34:11 Bottleneck for what? 22:34:15 It's a 12.6MHz CPU. 22:34:23 It's *NOT* going to do real-time *ANYTHING*. 22:34:41 At 1.5Mbps throughput, it transfers data at up to 187KBps. 22:34:50 That's a monsterous speed by most serial port standards anyway. 22:35:12 It's performance competitive with USB 1.1 at 1.5Mbps. 22:35:22 And it's a *HELL* of a lot easier to use. 22:35:27 (which is the intent) 22:35:59 hmm.. will u make USB extension ? 22:36:05 No. 22:36:08 Not for the Kestrel. 22:36:14 Maybe for the Raven. 22:36:25 But USB is so freakin' hard to use. 22:36:27 --- join: hovil (~hovil@CommSecureAustPtyLtd.sb1.optus.net.au) joined #forth 22:36:47 It's hard to design into a circuit, it's hard to program for, and it's hard to administer. 22:37:03 AND, as if that wasn't enough, device A can't talk to device B without the bus master being involved to copy data. 22:37:11 :(( 22:37:12 Which means, for device to device communications, bus throughput is cut in half. 22:37:24 so it sucks :(( 22:37:33 but so many devices do exist ;)) 22:37:33 It does "suck," it's just not easy to use. 22:37:39 ajfa;sljfa;jda;sljfa;sjfas;jd 22:37:48 It doesN'T "suck", it's just not easy to use. 22:38:09 USB got a lot of design details right. 22:38:15 Guten Morgen, hovil! 22:38:22 I think SerialBus would be a far better technology though. 22:38:46 aka Firewire, IEEE-1394. 22:39:46 Those who are aware of SerialBus' technical merits will immediately recognize my "ideal" goals for the peripheral interface bus are almost verbatim copies of the SerialBus hardware specifications. :) 22:40:22 IMHU u gotta think of FireWire as inner bus 22:40:33 at least, it already has some devices for it 22:40:52 but most i seen are DV camcorders and external HDD racks 22:41:13 FireWire isn't an internal bus. 22:41:23 Indeed, HyperTransport blows it away. 22:41:29 HT is *way* faster than Firewire. 22:42:03 i mean 'inner' not 'CPU<->RAM' ;))) 22:42:16 That *is* an inner bus. 22:42:19 i mean few wires instead of PCI and ISA 22:42:34 You meant to say 'backplane' then. 22:42:43 * Serg noted 22:43:14 I was considering, for a later version of the Kestrel, using a real, honest to goodness IEEE-488 implementation (though obviously with cheaper connectors) as a backplane. 22:44:54 It'd be slower than a raw bus, but it'd also be very device independent. And it'd support auto-configuration (which the original IEEE-488 doesn't support). 22:46:37 (and certainly faster than the original IEEE-488 interface) 22:47:37 kc5tja, I wish more cameras used firewire 22:47:49 so far I've only come across two or three models that do 22:48:45 hovil: whaaaat ? 22:48:55 here any miniDV or digital8 has ! 22:48:56 I guess you just need a compactflash/solid-state reader really 22:49:03 hovil: I've seen plenty that support the iLink standard. 22:49:03 Serg, I mean still picture 22:49:10 iLink is Sony's trade-name for SerialBus. 22:49:42 Oh, never looked at still picture cameras. 22:49:53 hovil: i know _no_ still one w/ FireWire 22:50:18 * Serg wants still ones to have IrDA or bluetooth - less wer'n'tear of tiny plugs 22:51:03 You know, I was actually considering making the serial bus of the Kestrel optical in nature, instead of wired. 22:51:11 But then I'd lose its asynchrony support. 22:51:29 (which means the screen would have to blank when accessing the bus) 22:52:44 And lately, I've been considering hacking up my own UWB-like transmission system. 22:53:02 Not that I'd ever sell something like that -- good grief, the FCC would kill me first, THEN throw me in jail to rot. 23:00:19 some bands are legal for sub-10mWt devices 23:00:32 10mW is 10-20 meters 23:01:36 kc5tja, UWB = ultra wide band? 23:04:49 Yeah. 23:04:59 Serg: Not here they're not. 23:05:11 Serg: But UWB covers basically DC to daylight. 23:05:27 If you have ever heard the 'click' from turning a lamp on or off in your radio, that's UWB. :) 23:05:41 Computers can use specially timed 'clicks' like that to communicate. 23:07:23 Thus, UWB devices are very tightly controlled here. 23:07:38 They are used mostly in the microwave spectrum, where they'll do the least amount of harm. 23:08:26 * Serg heard of some spyware timing CRT to TX data 23:08:43 or timing some other long-wire lines, maybe 23:14:42 dobrij utro 23:22:55 Serg, van eck phreaking? 23:23:37 Well, I'm going to bed. 23:23:42 I have work tomorrow. 23:23:48 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK") 23:23:50 I'm at work 23:23:53 ! 23:24:01 ISDN issues 23:24:04 remote machine crash 23:24:12 all the fun is right here! 23:24:58 hovil: ?? 23:29:17 Serg, I thought van eck phreaking was the name given to the method of reconstructing a CRT image from its EM radiation 23:33:53 no,no 23:34:22 trojan modifying video signal to send data over radio 23:34:34 even the data wat is never displayed 23:35:36 --- quit: ChanServ (ACK! SIGSEGV!) 23:53:42 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth 23:53:42 --- mode: irc.freenode.net set +o ChanServ 23:58:56 --- quit: Serg () 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/04.03.25