00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.03.18
00:06:42 <mur> arka chris
00:09:52 --- quit: I440r ("Leaving")
00:11:04 <arke> :)
00:20:44 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK")
00:39:18 --- quit: crc (Nick collision from services.)
00:40:04 --- join: crc (crc@1Cust21.tnt1.levittown.pa.da.uu.net) joined #forth
00:59:12 --- quit: crc ()
01:10:40 --- quit: cmeme (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
01:27:00 --- join: crc (crc@1Cust21.tnt1.levittown.pa.da.uu.net) joined #forth
02:19:16 --- quit: crc ()
02:45:14 --- quit: slava (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
02:45:51 --- join: slava (~slava@CPE0080ad77a020-CM.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth
03:07:04 --- join: crc (crc@1Cust21.tnt1.levittown.pa.da.uu.net) joined #forth
03:38:20 --- join: davidbfan (~team@host81-133-141-61.in-addr.btopenworld.com) joined #forth
03:39:12 --- quit: davidbfan ("User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby")
03:44:46 --- quit: crc ()
03:45:18 --- quit: warpzero (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
03:46:01 --- join: warpzero (~warpzero@dsl.142.mt.onewest.net) joined #forth
05:14:40 --- join: qFox (C00K13S@cp12172-a.roose1.nb.home.nl) joined #forth
05:46:16 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@workstations.pinnaclesports.com) joined #forth
06:03:39 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth
07:11:50 --- join: Serg (~z@212.34.52.142) joined #forth
07:29:49 --- quit: Serg ()
07:32:25 <madgarden> Let the Forth... begin!
07:53:20 <chandler> Bring Forth the Forth
08:22:56 <madgarden> I pray thee, Forthsoothe!
08:32:59 * mur returns from demonstration. hopefully the PRAYERS will be answered ;)
09:18:55 --- join: networm (~networm@L0658P08.dipool.highway.telekom.at) joined #forth
09:23:11 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@66-91-231-74.san.rr.com) joined #forth
09:23:21 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja
09:23:58 <kc5tja> Well, say goodbye to the Kestrel's peripheral interconnect ring concept.  In fact, say goodbye to the serial bus concept all-together.
09:24:24 <kc5tja> Due to practicality reasons, I'm going to implement a 4-bit version of the IEEE-488 bus.
09:24:47 <kc5tja> It's the only technology that will let me maintain video refresh while performing I/O.
09:44:47 --- join: cmeme (~cmeme@216.184.11.30.unused.swcp.com) joined #forth
09:55:30 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK")
11:00:35 --- join: ASau (~asau@158.250.48.196) joined #forth
11:00:45 <ASau> Dobryjj vecher!
11:13:28 <Robert> Privet
11:26:52 <ASau> Does ANS allow negative argument for ALLOT ?
11:27:38 <ASau> It seems I'm ready to use it.
11:27:59 <ASau> Or I've used it already.
11:31:18 <tathi> ASau: yes.
11:31:40 <tathi> explicitly.
11:35:43 --- quit: warpzero ("Tried to warn you about Chino and Daddy Gee, but I can't seem to get to you through the U.S. Mail.")
11:36:30 --- join: warpzero (~warpzero@dsl.142.mt.onewest.net) joined #forth
11:36:41 <Herkamire> cool
11:43:21 --- quit: networm (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
11:47:16 --- join: wossname (wossname@HSE-MTL-ppp61058.qc.sympatico.ca) joined #forth
12:15:44 --- join: TreyB (~trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth
12:28:39 <madgarden> ASau, I didn't think you cared about what ANS allows. :)
12:29:48 <ASau> I want to be prepared when someone asks why it does not work.
12:30:05 <madgarden> Why ANS doesn't work?
12:30:32 <ASau> I don't know whether it works in ANS.
12:30:46 <ASau> It's too restrictive.
12:31:36 <ASau> "You should not assume...",  "...isn't guaranteed" etc.
12:32:47 <madgarden> Just wondering what "it" you're referring to.
12:34:39 <ASau> I'm freeing some memory through ALLOT
12:35:44 <madgarden> So then, what is your answer to why it doesn't work?
12:36:10 <ASau> I didn't know if it should work in ANS.
12:36:42 <ASau> I'm communicating ANS forthers as you can see.
12:37:24 <ASau> In fact, this "hack" can easily not appear in final version.
13:09:07 --- join: Downer (~Downer@dial81-135-45-171.in-addr.btopenworld.com) joined #forth
13:10:10 <Downer> there are so fscking little forth books
13:10:16 <Downer> :/
13:11:32 <madgarden> I searched for Forth books at Chapters the last time I was there, and there were quite a few hits, but none of them were in stock. :-/
13:12:51 <Downer> amazon has 2/3
13:12:54 <Downer> all old
13:13:14 <Downer> well correction, people are trying to sell old Forth books on amazon for fscking rediculas prices
13:30:48 --- join: networm (~networm@L0663P26.dipool.highway.telekom.at) joined #forth
13:31:35 <madgarden> hi, Elias.
13:31:39 --- quit: warpzero ("Tried to warn you about Chino and Daddy Gee, but I can't seem to get to you through the U.S. Mail.")
13:32:32 --- quit: Downer ("Leaving")
13:34:18 <networm> hi
13:34:37 <ASau> Guten Abend!
13:35:33 --- join: warpzero (~warpzero@dsl.142.mt.onewest.net) joined #forth
13:36:07 <madgarden> networm, so how goes the Forthbot? ;)
13:36:32 <networm> well
13:36:45 <networm> i first want to finish B4
13:40:48 <madgarden> What's left now? Forth versions of C code words?
13:42:05 <networm> not sure i want to do them anymore. but if not, i need some better stack overflow checking
13:43:56 <madgarden> Well, in Forthy I just handle the stack overflow checking in my lowest-level stack functions.
13:44:32 <networm> yeah. that's what i could do it i make everything forth words
13:44:51 <networm> but now it's c functions.. and i can't have an exception in the middle of a built in word
13:45:43 <networm> another idea would be to completely remove stack checking..
13:46:20 <networm> since there will be a timeout anyway.. nothing bad could happen
13:48:59 <madgarden> Can't have an exception in the middle of a C word?
13:49:17 <networm> yes
13:49:35 <madgarden> Why not use setjmp() and longjmp()>
13:49:36 <madgarden> ?
13:49:49 <networm> i could do that i guess
13:49:57 <madgarden> b4_throw(ERR_STACK_UNDERFLOW)
13:50:29 <madgarden> But also... if you didn't have so many C words, it wouldn't be a problem. :)
13:53:57 <networm> you just want a good set of forth words coded in forth, to use them as forthy example :)
13:56:02 <madgarden> Not at all! :P
13:58:37 <networm> i wonder about my small uni project.. i wrote back now, suggesting to a make a Forth and add special debugging functionality, so the 'Compiler' part of Forth can be seen
14:04:57 <madgarden> I think the problem is your professor's lack of Forth knowledge. Sounds like a big project at this point.
14:07:45 <networm> yep. i should try doing it somehow time-efficient
14:54:42 <qFox> what encoding creates 40byte hashes in this form? 2290e96148c73e5ed5e5e7b54c6ccfa880b5a8ab
14:54:52 <qFox> only hex numbers are used appearantly
14:55:14 <wossname> that a torrent tracker number?
14:55:36 <qFox> no
14:55:49 <qFox> password hash for a new im we're looking into
14:55:57 <qFox> (instant messenger)
15:11:51 <ASau> 160-bit? 
15:11:56 <ASau> It's strange.
15:12:17 <ASau> Maybe there's something like check sum included.
15:12:34 <wossname> maybe it's just ridiculously nonstandard
15:12:45 <wossname> obscurity is always the best security
15:12:53 <ASau> Consider something like TripleDES, BlowFish, RC4
15:13:18 <ASau> Anything that's no less than 128 bits
15:14:39 <ASau> Yes. It may be nonstandard.
15:15:22 <ASau> I'm wrong. TripleDES requires less than 128 bits.
15:15:35 <networm> AES is supposed to be good
15:17:22 <ASau> qFox, try if it's HEX encoded plain text.
15:18:10 <qFox> xfire.com
15:18:18 <ASau> Maybe XORred or like.
15:21:13 <wossname> obscurity is the best.
15:22:38 <ASau> Yes, you're right.
15:43:07 --- quit: qFox ("if at first you dont succeed, quit again")
15:46:39 --- quit: networm ("Client exiting")
15:53:44 --- join: crc (crc@1Cust203.tnt1.levittown.pa.da.uu.net) joined #forth
16:01:33 <ASau> Dobre jitro, crc!
16:08:25 <crc> Hello ASau
16:09:17 <ASau> How does Retro go?
16:09:58 <crc> Not too bad. I'm slowly improving it, but it's pretty useful these days.
16:10:27 <ASau> I've got many other jobs, I can't follow.
16:10:59 <crc> I've been using it to write a semi-wiki backend
16:10:59 <ASau> I'm very slowly work on my projects.
16:11:36 <ASau> That sounds interesting.
16:11:44 <crc> I can understand that. At the moment my work is in the slow season. Sucks for paying bills, but gives me more time for coding. :-)
16:12:00 <crc> You can view it at http://fwiki.retroforth.org
16:12:03 <ASau> Speuler, IIRC, planned something of that kind.
16:12:29 <crc> Most of the details (including code) are on the forthfreak.net wiki
16:12:47 <crc> At http://www.forthfreak.net/wiki/index.cgi?WikiWrittenInForth
16:13:09 <Speuler> asau, nope. was crc, all alone.
16:13:41 <crc> I still need to eliminate some use of PHP (for the editing page and as a wrapper for calling RetroForth), but that's coming
16:14:28 <crc> I'll probably resume work on that Forth-in-JavaScript idea soon as well.
16:14:34 <Speuler> asau, me may mix it up with forth cgi stuff
16:15:04 <ASau> OK.
16:15:27 <ASau> crc, I see you explicitly say "type".
16:15:44 <ASau> Why not type each string.
16:15:52 <ASau> " Regular."
16:15:59 <ASau> I" Italics."
16:16:07 <ASau> B" Bold."
16:16:17 <crc> I could do that, I hadn't thought of it.
16:18:36 <ASau> "bye" requirement.
16:19:03 <ASau> I think you've stumbled into EOF state.
16:19:15 <ASau> Am I right?
16:19:41 <ASau> That's also my problem. I've not found solution yet.
16:20:02 <ASau> I mean "good enough solution."
16:20:59 <crc> Actually, you don't have to have a "bye" at the end of each page. RetroForth segfaults, creating a core dump which the PHP wrapper removes if the "bye" isn't included.
16:21:00 <ASau> It seems I'll replace KEY word to handle EOF with resetting input stream.
16:21:33 <crc> I don't have any File I/O in RetroForth yet, so everything is done by redirection. :-)
16:22:01 <ASau> Then, there's need to handle EOF of stdin.
16:22:11 <ASau> I know about this.
16:23:12 <ASau> It took me up to half an our to understand why my Forth used to freeze.
16:24:05 <ASau> When I redirect stdin.
16:25:09 <crc> What I *should* do is have the editor add/remove the "bye" word automatically, at least for now.
16:25:55 <ASau> sed '$a\\\nbye'
16:26:07 <ayrnieu> : unixkey begin key dup 0< if bye then ;  -- something I use for unix filters in gforth
16:30:17 --- quit: wossname ("for a better tomorrow, hope for a new beginning")
16:30:31 <Speuler> crc, thanks for mentioning :)
16:30:59 <Speuler> wasn't aware you've looked at the forth stuff
16:31:38 <crc> Yup.
16:31:40 <Speuler> forth cgi, i mean to say
16:31:54 <crc> I know what you meant :-)
16:32:02 --- join: Sonarman (~matt@adsl-64-169-93-11.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth
16:32:08 <arke> hi matt
16:32:16 <crc> Your stuff is pretty flexible
16:32:32 <Sonarman> hi arke
16:32:36 <ASau> crc, have you ever looked at acWEB etc?
16:32:39 <crc> There *is* some code to handle posting forms in a link on the ForthWiki page
16:32:44 <crc> No
16:32:52 <ASau> Your wiki reminds me that stuff.
16:33:31 <ASau> Colon-definitions just in text look nice.
16:33:39 <Speuler> posting forms was the point where i've stopped
16:33:55 <Speuler> didn't know how to get the input
16:34:00 <Speuler> i think i do know now
16:34:26 <Speuler> i do intend to return to forth cgi at one point
16:34:40 <Speuler> actually, the need is rising
16:34:51 <ASau> Speuler, I don't know exactly, but ForthScript should be GPL.
16:35:35 <Speuler> or LGPL, or artistic ?
16:35:58 <ASau> I don't know really.
16:36:13 <crc> ASau: I uploaded a new RetroForth+FHTML binary using your idea. It also uses a slightly better form for links.
16:36:22 <Speuler> as long as the license doesn't preclude the author from using it :)
16:36:47 <ASau> crc, I've found it.
16:37:23 <ASau> What about quotes?
16:37:38 <ASau> I think we need ""-s in text.
16:38:00 --- join: thin (thin@bespin.org) joined #forth
16:38:25 <ASau> Dobre jitro, thin!
16:38:33 <Speuler> "" this text contains "single" quotes""  
16:38:56 <crc> I'm working on that. I'd have to either change the outer delimiters or alter the interpreter/compiler to handle it though.
16:39:03 <thin> who here knows their MBTI?
16:39:13 <thin> (aka keirsey type)
16:39:22 <Speuler> i got an implementation, allowing you to do "these kind of strings"
16:39:26 <ASau> Aha, and """ this text contains double ""... """
16:41:00 <Speuler> : foo   "bar" type  ;
16:41:29 <Speuler> for one leading space, i'd have to do  "  bar"
16:41:46 <ASau> crc, consider replacing of simple marks with tags. Like phpWiki or others.
16:41:48 --- quit: thin (Client Quit)
16:42:57 <ASau> If you need searching for a substring look into text editors.
16:43:10 <ASau> There're FIG and SF ones.
16:43:21 <ASau> FIG's should be p.d.
16:43:36 <crc> To handle a "real" Wiki syntax, I need to have much better string manipulation. I am working on it.
16:43:56 <crc> Speuler: how do you handle strings with the "string" form?
16:44:00 <Speuler> there's substring search in my stringstack package.
16:44:00 <crc> Right.
16:44:50 <Speuler> crc, what is not a word, and not a number, i deal with through a vector in the interpreter "unknownword"
16:44:56 <ASau> crc, SP-Forth authors made NOTFOUND hook for such kind of problems.
16:45:05 <Speuler> there i plug in handler for  "xxx and the like
16:45:06 <crc> Interesting idea.
16:45:24 <Speuler> ^C  ->  3
16:45:52 <Speuler> >shell   -> external command
16:47:08 <Speuler> handled negative literals through it was well, but dropped that quickly
16:47:41 <Speuler> because   "-3" number  didn't work ...
16:48:07 <Speuler> $abcd  %1101 etc use that mechanism as well
16:49:54 <Speuler> 'A  ->  65
16:50:55 <crc> I have some hooks like that in the NUMBER routine
16:52:54 <Speuler> to non-forth people, it may be difficult to explain the extra space after the leading " 
16:53:13 <Speuler> well, easy to explain but more difficult to understand ..
16:53:39 <crc> Right
16:53:47 <Speuler> if wiki markup is too forthish, non-forth people may get alienated
16:53:49 <ASau> Speuler, "You need extra space after quote."
16:54:18 <ASau> Speuler, what's easier?
16:54:40 <Speuler> yeah, the problem shifts
16:54:45 <crc> I agree with you. I'll keep working on the markups.
16:54:58 <Speuler> to explaining why you need two leading spaces if you only want one
16:55:26 <ASau> Hmm.
16:56:03 <ASau> HTML browser should process spaces.
16:56:21 <ASau> Recommendation to leave more spaces?
16:56:27 <Speuler> but server/cgi needs to generate them
16:57:06 <ASau> Two spaces should be sufficient.
16:58:48 <Speuler> i've moved, by the way
16:59:09 <Speuler> wanna see pics of the new location ?
17:00:48 <ASau> Maybe, as we filter stream, wouldn't it be better to replace special sequences?
17:03:27 --- quit: tathi ("leaving")
17:09:01 <ASau> crc, why not use ." or like to emit tags?
17:09:12 <ASau> : H1  ." <H1>" ; 
17:09:28 <ASau> : /H1 ." /" H1 ;
17:09:31 <ASau> etc
17:09:50 <ASau> Ojj!
17:09:59 <ASau> FORGET /H1
17:10:11 <ASau> : /H1 ." </H1>" ;
17:11:53 <ASau> If you have no string printing words, define them.
17:12:10 <crc> RetroForth doesn't allow strings to be compiled into words yet,
17:12:51 <ASau> Maybe it's time to make it possible?
17:13:10 --- join: semtex (~semtex@ppp-62-245-208-74.mnet-online.de) joined #forth
17:13:12 <crc> I've been trying to get it working for several months now.
17:13:32 <ASau> Do you have WORD word?
17:13:36 <crc> Yes
17:14:03 <Speuler> months ?
17:14:17 <crc> Since September 2003
17:14:38 <ASau> Well, use it to get string and save it in dictionary or in variables or anywhere you want.
17:15:18 <ASau> : TYPE COUNT TIMES DUP C@ EMIT 1+ REPEAT  DROP ;
17:15:23 <Speuler> what part of string litertals is the one causing problems ?
17:15:30 <Speuler> literals...
17:15:35 <ASau> This prints counted string.
17:18:43 <crc> At the moment, I handle using strings in definitions like this:
17:18:59 <crc> create hello_world 13 chars allot
17:19:12 <crc> " Hello, World!" hello_world place
17:19:24 <crc> : hello hello_world count type ;
17:19:48 <crc> It's not as easy as I'd like, but it does work.
17:20:00 <Speuler> that's not far from    create hello  ," hello, world" 
17:20:03 <ASau> crc, why not use smth. like:  STRING HW!  "  Hello, World!"
17:20:41 <Speuler> string literals in words are not so difficult
17:21:01 <ASau> In FIG-Forth it's done with:
17:21:01 <Speuler> there's an extra thing to consider if your cpu requires aligned access
17:21:02 <ASau> : ."
17:21:02 <ASau>   CHAR "        ( HEX 22 )
17:21:03 <ASau>   STATE @
17:21:03 <ASau>   IF    COMPILE (.")
17:21:04 <ASau>         WORD
17:21:04 <ASau>         HERE C@  1+ ALLOT
17:21:05 <ASau>   ELSE  WORD  HERE COUNT TYPE
17:21:07 <ASau>   THEN
17:21:09 <ASau> ; IMMEDIATE
17:21:16 <ASau> Sorry, Speuler!
17:21:49 <crc> RetroForth's compiler doesn't support defining compile time functionality into words
17:21:49 <Speuler> ASau: never mind. but, should be "sorry, channel" :)
17:22:13 <crc> I have to code words like that as primitives
17:22:28 <crc> And I don't have ELSE :-)
17:22:30 <ASau> I've not interrupted everyone on channel. 
17:22:32 <Speuler> ah, no immediate words, or the analog
17:22:50 <ASau> crc. Well, that's not a problem.
17:23:11 <ASau> STRING word-name  delimiter string
17:23:27 <ASau> ^^^^^ that should help
17:25:27 <Speuler> ... 1+ allot exit then  word here count type ...   could compensate for missing ELSE
17:25:54 <ASau> Yes, I also have though of this.
17:26:19 <ASau> ...thought...
17:27:02 <Speuler> but, ." needs to be immediate
17:27:56 --- quit: arke (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
17:28:02 <ASau> Well, if inlined literal strings are forbidden, it's not a problem.
17:28:03 --- join: arke (~Chris@wbar8.lax1-4-11-099-104.dsl-verizon.net) joined #forth
17:28:32 <Speuler> true
17:29:00 <arke> hi
17:29:34 <Speuler> 'morning
17:29:36 <ASau> We need string constants.
17:29:48 <ASau> Dobre jitro, arke!
17:30:00 <arke> Dobryjj vecher!
17:31:19 --- quit: semtex (Remote closed the connection)
17:31:28 * crc wishes that tcn had documented the RetroForth compiler
17:39:43 * arke is away: bestbuy
17:47:17 --- join: I440r (~mark4@64.3.99.130.ptr.us.xo.net) joined #forth
17:47:28 <ASau> Dobre jitro, I440r!
17:51:06 <I440r> :)
18:08:28 <Sonarman> I440r: done anything with/to isforth lately? :)
18:12:33 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
18:31:39 --- quit: crc (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
18:51:24 <Speuler> crc, why is your implementation of "type" called "emit-loop" ?
19:02:05 <Sonarman> because it's functionality is different from that of TYPE , i guess
19:11:58 <ASau> It seems, it would be better to get an existent asm code and make it standalone or port it to anything you want.
19:12:19 <ASau> Or: crc wants.
19:24:00 <madgarden> (" I'm a "string"")
19:24:13 <madgarden> Oops. Was just messing with an idea there.
19:29:09 --- join: Sonarman_ (~matt@adsl-64-169-93-68.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth
19:29:33 --- quit: Sonarman (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
19:29:38 --- nick: Sonarman_ -> Sonarman
19:39:29 <madgarden> How are conditional compilation words like [IF] and [THEN] implemented... is it straight-up text parsing? [IF] parses every following token until it matches a [THEN]? Or is it something (as I suspect) more Forth sensible?
20:02:54 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@66-91-231-74.san.rr.com) joined #forth
20:03:08 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja
20:14:21 <arke> hi kc5tja
20:15:49 <arke> kc5tja: the chorus to my little fruity loops song KICKS AAAASSSSSSSS
20:17:20 <kc5tja> Well, I have a few folks in the ham radio community interested in a ForthBox.
20:17:27 <kc5tja> But they are adament: they want something other than Forth for it.
20:18:05 <arke> *gasp*
20:18:08 <arke> bastards!
20:21:52 <madgarden> kc5tja, how about a BASIC? Maybe something modeled after the Sinclair Spectrum's BASIC.
20:22:32 <kc5tja> I already noted elsewhere that EhBASIC would be my choice of BASIC for it; it's modeled primarily after Commodore BASIC, but it's more powerful.
20:23:13 <kc5tja> And you don't need special keyboard overlays to use it either.  :)
20:23:54 <arke> :)
20:25:04 <madgarden> Oh well. BASIC is fun at least.
20:25:09 <madgarden> And easy.
20:25:28 <kc5tja> Easy to learn and start coding right away perhaps, but not easy to implement.
20:25:31 <madgarden> Forth is cool, but apparently only to a select few. ;) 
20:25:42 <kc5tja> I would argue it's harder than Oberon, because BASIC is all ad-hoc in terms of implementation.
20:25:58 <arke> heh
20:26:05 <arke> so many "special cases" for basic...
20:26:14 <madgarden> Make them suffer by forcing them to use line numbers. :)
20:26:17 <arke> kc5tja: line numbers or no? or choice? (a la QB)
20:26:25 <kc5tja> madgarden: EhBASIC only supports line numbers.
20:26:27 <arke> madgarden: lol
20:26:30 <kc5tja> And two-character variable names.
20:26:47 <arke> line numbers aren't bad as long as you can do something like renumber 20, 25 or something
20:27:00 <arke> two-char var names?
20:27:17 <kc5tja> arke: Line numbers are horrible.  Ever have to renumber a BASIC program that had 6000 lines, on a version of BASIC that didn't support a renumber command?
20:27:21 <kc5tja> Horrible.
20:27:25 <madgarden> That'll teach 'em! Unforthy bastards!
20:27:35 <arke> kc5tja: I know!
20:27:41 <arke> kc5tja: GWBasic for example
20:27:44 <arke> kc5tja: pure hell
20:27:51 <madgarden> C64 BASIC didn't have a renumber. 
20:28:00 <kc5tja> madgarden: That's how I know about it.  :)
20:28:04 <madgarden> Heh.
20:28:06 <arke> madgarden: nice play on words there :)
20:28:26 * arke would always keep his GOSUB targets 1000 numbers apart
20:28:30 <arke> and eventually run out of room :P
20:28:33 <kc5tja> And Like I said, EhBASIC is modeled after Commodore BASIC V2.0.
20:28:47 <madgarden> Though, I remember loading up some other advanced form of BASIC that had a renumber, and used it solely for that purpose.
20:29:34 <madgarden> Have you looked at the Spectrum BASIC? It's super nice.
20:30:29 <madgarden> And Opera does not like Lycos pages.
20:31:24 <arke> lycos sucks
20:32:06 <kc5tja> madgarden: I haven't really seen anything particularly nice about it.
20:32:12 <kc5tja> It's just another BASIC implementation as far as I can see.
20:35:06 <madgarden> I might be thinking of another BASIC.
20:35:43 <arke> Yay!!!!
20:35:48 <arke> Wireless keyboard and mouse!!!!
20:35:49 <arke> Yay!!!!
20:35:49 <arke> :)
20:35:51 <arke> Happy!!!
20:35:52 <arke> :)
20:35:54 <arke> yay!!!!
20:35:54 <arke> :)
20:35:57 <kc5tja> madgarden: Well, why would you consider Spectrum's BASIC particularly good?  What features are you looking at?
20:40:38 <madgarden> kc5tja, I'm trying to find that out, and well, it doesn't look like the super cool BASIC I was thinking of. ;) Scanning old ICQ logs with people I suspect of talking about BASIC with.
20:41:34 <madgarden> Gah, can't seem to find it.
20:41:59 <madgarden> But yea, Speccy BASIC looks no better than C64 BASIC. So forget I said anything, dammit! ;)
20:42:21 <kc5tja> Commodore 128 BASIC (aka BASIC 10.0) was an outstanding version of BASIC.  But I lack documentation on it.
20:42:30 <kc5tja> Besides, it took more than 32KB of ROM to implement.  :)
20:42:32 <kc5tja> WAY more.
20:42:38 <kc5tja> Something like 40KB in fact.
20:42:39 <kc5tja> It was huge.
20:42:41 <madgarden> I imagine one could pare that down though.
20:43:45 <madgarden> http://members.tripod.com/~rvbelzen/128intpt/index.html
20:45:30 <madgarden> http://commodore.ca/manuals/128_system_guide/toc.htm
21:08:23 <ASau> madgarden, ZX Basic has no RENUM.
21:09:02 <ASau> madgarden, and it's not even as good as MSX Basic.
21:09:18 <ASau> Though, they're almost equal.
21:09:25 <ASau> Both are basics.
21:10:12 <ASau> kc5tja, someone wrote Basic in Forth, you should search on the Net.
21:10:32 <kc5tja> ASau: I know this, I've seen it, and it's still no match (not even *close*) to EhBASIC.
21:11:28 <ASau> It seems, someone wrote smth. Fortran-like in Forth.
21:11:43 <ASau> I don't remember.
21:11:51 <kc5tja> Julian Noble.  Another package that has no particular interest for my target market.
21:12:53 <ASau> How do they find Lisp? I mean your friends.
21:13:16 <ASau> There're Lisp-like extensions.
21:13:39 <kc5tja> ASau: I considered Lisp.  But as soon as I mentioned using Oberon (how much more "standard" can you get than Oberon?), they started yapping like sick dogs about, "Why not use languages that people are actually *familiar* with?"
21:13:48 <ASau> I've heard of several implementations.
21:14:44 <ASau> Heaven!
21:14:58 <ASau> What do they want?
21:15:08 <ASau> Slow or inefficient compiler?
21:15:16 <kc5tja> They want BASIC.
21:15:19 <kc5tja> Which is a pity.
21:15:25 <Herkamire> I just wrote up some ideas for a computer game:  http://herkamire.com/jason/ascii_soup
21:15:30 <kc5tja> They're getting Forth anyway, whether they like it or not.  Forth is in the ROM.  :)
21:15:40 <kc5tja> But an external OS is not an option: it's a requirement now.
21:16:03 <ASau> kc5tja, do they agree on C?
21:16:26 <kc5tja> ASau: Amazingly, yes, but yet, nobody there (except those who hack on Linux software) know a word of it.
21:16:34 <ASau> IIRC, Mikhail Maksimov worked on LCC-based one.
21:16:36 <arke> Herkamire: :)\
21:17:14 <kc5tja> ASau: IIRC, there is a 65816 LCC port on 6502.org -- I don't think it's the same author though.
21:18:08 <ASau> I think Mak. work with i386 version.
21:18:27 <arke> gonna try playing halo from my bed, bbl :)
21:19:50 <kc5tja> I looked at porting LCC to the 65816 myself, but good lord, LCC is damn hard to grok.
21:20:01 <kc5tja> (which utterly leaves GCC out of the question)
21:20:05 <ASau> kc5tja. Pascal or Oberon should be much better than any C.
21:20:59 <ASau> Rigor of "cast first" helps very much in compiling.
21:21:55 <kc5tja> ASau: Oberon wipes the floor with Pascal too.  I abhore Pascal, but I *love* Oberon.
21:21:59 <ASau> I think even Basic is easier than C to implement.
21:22:16 <kc5tja> Yes, BASIC is vastly easier than C.  :)  No question on that one.  :D
21:23:16 <ASau> kc5tja, when I looked at Oberon I had ver. 1 description.
21:23:49 <ASau> But I think changes are not global.
21:24:00 * ayrnieu has a fairly hefty bias against Wirthian languages.
21:24:28 <kc5tja> ayrnieu: Such biases are utterly unfounded.
21:24:41 <kc5tja> They're entirely based on opinions, and not facts.
21:24:46 <kc5tja> And that pisses me right the (*#@&$ing hell off.
21:25:07 <kc5tja> Oberon in particular can do everything that C can, and do it better.
21:25:16 <kc5tja> It even supports garbage collection.
21:25:43 * ayrnieu shrugs.
21:26:02 <kc5tja> See what I mean?  :)
21:26:25 <kc5tja> Perl vs Python at least has technical merit.
21:26:30 <kc5tja> C vs. Oberon has ... nothing.
21:27:24 <ASau> kc5tja, Oberon vs. C has faster compiler, I guess.
21:27:46 <ASau> Like any Withian Language.
21:27:50 <kc5tja> ASau: Yes, Oberon's compiler is not only faster, but actually produces superior code output.
21:27:55 <ASau> Wirthian
21:27:56 <kc5tja> And no need for Make.
21:28:30 <ASau> Ahh! Yeah.
21:28:44 <arke> what does "wirthian" mean?
21:28:47 <ASau> I know what C can't do in principal.
21:28:51 <arke> (I'm watching IRC while playing HAlo)
21:28:51 <ASau> Constants.
21:29:13 <ASau> arke, designed by Niklaus Wirth.
21:29:26 <ayrnieu> arke - e.g, Pascal, Modula, Oberon.
21:29:27 <kc5tja> arke: A language ultimately derived from Pascal, invented by Niklaus Wirth back in the 70s.  Modula-II and Oberon are two such languages that are Wirthian, especially since they were created by Niklaus Wirth himself.  
21:29:39 <kc5tja> arke: However, Ada and VHDL are also Wirthian languages.
21:30:02 <ayrnieu> not in my usage, but OK.
21:30:05 <arke> what signifies a wirthian langiage?
21:30:13 <kc5tja> arke: Derivation from Pascal.
21:30:23 <kc5tja> ayrnieu: To what topic are you replying?
21:30:55 <ayrnieu> kc5tja - I don't classify Ada as 'Wirthian', despite its Pascal heritage
21:31:00 <ASau> kc5tja, in fact Algol-W differs much.
21:31:27 <ayrnieu> because, lord above, Ada has a less blecherous syntax than what I'm getting from this Oberon tutorial.
21:31:30 <ASau> ayrnieu, design of Ada is non-wirthian.
21:31:47 <kc5tja> ayrnieu: You're joking right?
21:31:54 <ayrnieu> kc5tja - no.  Syntax matters.
21:32:21 <arke> ayrnieu: then you shouldn't be coding forth :)
21:32:24 <kc5tja> ayrnieu: Like, seriously, you're joking?  Oberon's syntax is the single cleanest syntax that I've ever seen -- Ada included.  Ada has volume after volume after volume of documentation describing the syntax and how pieces of a program fit together.
21:32:43 <kc5tja> Oberon has . . . 3 pages of text describing the BNF and maybe about 50 pages describing what each keyword does and how it's used.
21:33:14 <ayrnieu> kc5tja - ARRAY OF ARRAY OF REAL?  POINTER TO?  I'd rather have pages of documentation if I can express myself more concisely than that.
21:33:29 <kc5tja> In fact, Ada actually goes so far as to support *I/O port specifications* in its type specifiers.  A nice feature, to be sure, but . . . c'mon, is that *REALLY* needed?
21:34:04 <ASau> kc5tja, Ada was designed by (for) commetee.
21:34:05 <kc5tja> ayrnieu: Your definition of clean is substantially different from mine then.
21:34:29 <kc5tja> Also, ARRAY [N,M] OF REAL is valid oberon.
21:34:56 <ayrnieu> kc5tja - indeed.
21:34:57 <kc5tja> (where N and M are some positive integer constants)
21:37:36 <kc5tja> Moreover, ARRAY OF ARRAY OF REAL is an open array specification.  It accurately describes something which, frankly, can't be expressed in C very easily (int[])[] is the best I can think of, and most C compilers will choke on it, forcing you to use int** instead, which doesn't quite describe the same thing.
21:38:19 <Herkamire> OK, here's another game idea:  http://herkamire.com/jason/life_in_a_ball
21:38:37 <Herkamire> this one's 3D and could be quite complex to implement
21:39:11 <Herkamire> but it might turn out to be quite fun without adding complicated stuff like AI
21:41:26 <kc5tja> Herkamire: yes, I agree -- this one is neat.
21:41:58 <kc5tja> I wonder how difficult it'd be to implement for the Kestrel?  I think a game like this would be a nice (advanced) game, suitable for demonstrating the Kestrel's abilities?
21:43:00 <Herkamire> kc5tja: the 3D one?
21:43:04 <kc5tja> Yeah.
21:43:11 <kc5tja> Herkamire: Here's a spin (no pun intended) on the concept:
21:43:28 <kc5tja> First I'll start out with a single-player model.
21:43:51 <kc5tja> You and a number of other bots start at the bottom of the ball, such that the ball is balanced -- it won't roll.
21:44:11 <kc5tja> There are four targets.  As a member of your specific team (let's say team 1), you want to roll the ball onto your team's target.
21:44:24 <kc5tja> The problem is, the other bots (members of the other teams) want to do the same.
21:44:33 <kc5tja> Bonking isn't out of the question to make this happen.  :)
21:44:50 <kc5tja> No damaged accrued from bonking in this situation.
21:45:03 <kc5tja> OH, and yes, the hole in the ball still exists, so watch out!
21:45:31 <kc5tja> Bots will regenerate up to N times (where N is the number of lives in the game) if they fall out of the hole.
21:45:31 <Herkamire> heh :)
21:45:47 <Herkamire> this idea has been floating around in my head for a long time.
21:45:58 <Herkamire> I don't think I want your ship to ever take damage.
21:46:00 <Herkamire> bashing is fun
21:46:19 <kc5tja> Now, for the next level up -- network game play.  Let teams of players log into the game.  :)
21:46:34 <Herkamire> sounds cool
21:47:04 <Herkamire> you want to add these ideas to my wiki page? (if not may I?)
21:47:17 <kc5tja> Herkamire: Go ahead.  :)
21:47:34 <Herkamire> I like the idea of 2-4 players trying to roll it different directions
21:47:48 <Herkamire> hmmm... why stop at 4 come to think of it
21:48:05 <kc5tja> Well, I mean four for single-player mode.  I think it's OK to have up to 8 or more for network play.
21:50:08 <kc5tja> *GOSH!*  how could I forget?!
21:50:18 <kc5tja> Another great game (from the past) for the Kestrel -- LASER CHESS!
21:50:21 <kc5tja> I *loved* that game!
21:53:14 <Herkamire> never heard of laser chess
21:54:07 <kc5tja> I remember typing that game in from Compute! magazine into my AmigaBASIC window.  :)
21:55:51 <Herkamire> herkforth dreams about a computer or programming environment simple enough that a useful/fun program could actually be small enough to type in
21:56:10 <Herkamire> not that you'd want to or anything.
21:56:15 <fridge> yay
21:56:30 <kc5tja> Herkamire: How do I get nested list items in your wiki?
21:56:48 <kc5tja> (BTW, it's the weirdest wiki syntax I've ever, ever used.)
21:57:00 <Herkamire> :)
21:57:12 * Herkamire tries nesting <* to see what happens
21:57:20 <kc5tja> It doesn't work.
21:57:33 <kc5tja> <* MUST be on the left-margin of the line.
21:58:45 <Herkamire> oh right, I think the <ul> thing doesn't allow block level elements.
21:58:56 <Herkamire> (as list items)
21:59:36 <Herkamire> nested lists would be cool I guess
22:00:06 <Herkamire> maybe I can just support block level elements as list items
22:01:05 --- join: Serg (~z@212.34.52.142) joined #forth
22:02:26 <arke> macs are like good-looking women. You'd love to have them, but you can't afford them.
22:02:35 * arke is away: be back in 60 minutes
22:03:55 <Herkamire> kc5tja: how badly do you want nested lists?
22:05:48 <Herkamire> I was hoping I could factor out such things
22:06:09 <kc5tja> Herkamire: It was just to organize my personal page.
22:06:15 <kc5tja> I can do without it.
22:07:04 <kc5tja> Actually, <ul> does nest.  My wiki supports it, for example.
22:07:33 <Herkamire> oh I know.
22:07:51 <Herkamire> I'm just thinking how to implement it in my wiki
22:08:04 <Herkamire> I'll have to refactor a bit, or copy and paste
22:08:06 <madgarden> kc5tja, how about Small C?
22:08:52 --- join: imaginator (~George@georgeps.dsl.xmission.com) joined #forth
22:10:21 <ASau> madgarden, it may be full-blown Oberon instead of "Small C".
22:11:30 <ASau> And it can be.
22:14:06 <Herkamire> ahh bugger.
22:15:04 <Herkamire> I got it (just testing on my local machine) allowing you to put any block level element inside a list item, but then it still has the bullet in the outer <li>
22:22:35 <Herkamire> grrrr. is there some way to nest lists so they look right in firefox and lynx?
22:25:11 <imaginator> Hi
22:25:57 <imaginator> ASau: I was impressed by the Oberon demo I used that ran in Windows.
22:26:26 <imaginator> The GUI seemed quite advanced.
22:26:48 <imaginator> Much more so than most C toolkits I've seen.  I wonder why it isn't more well known.
22:27:53 <ASau> "Worse is better."
22:28:21 <ASau> You may read the same about Lisp.
22:29:08 <ASau> Or SmallTalk.
22:29:40 <imaginator> I read "Worse is better" it was depressing.
22:29:46 <kc5tja> Herkamire: Lynx in particular is *horrible* at rendering webpages.
22:30:33 <imaginator> w3m  is good and links I've heard is good as well.
22:30:48 <imaginator> w3m even supports images in an xterm.
22:30:58 <Herkamire> w3m displays quite well, and supports more things (frames?)
22:31:17 <Herkamire> I wasn't happy with the user interface though
22:31:28 <kc5tja> Herkamire: It uses VI's keybindings.  :)
22:31:36 <kc5tja> That alone makes w3m worthwhile for me.
22:32:12 <imaginator> For a long time I used w3m-img because Netscape was a pile of dung, but now I like Mozilla Firefox.
22:32:34 <kc5tja> Firefox?  Is that the new name for Firebird?
22:32:38 <imaginator> yes
22:33:58 <Herkamire> I don't remember what the main reason was for my quitting w3m.
22:34:08 <Herkamire> can you open your editor on a texarea?
22:34:08 <imaginator> I run it in OpenBSD 3.5-beta and it's surprisingly stable.  I've run it for much longer in Windows (back when it was Phoenix) and it was good.
22:34:23 <imaginator> With w3m yes.
22:34:45 <imaginator> From what I remember you press <Enter> on a text area and then it invokes env(EDITOR)
22:35:37 <kc5tja> Herkamire: yes.  I had mine configured to open vim.
22:36:00 <Herkamire> hmmm. I can't remember what it was. maybe I'll try it again and see :)
22:36:08 <Herkamire> does it do numbered links?
22:36:26 <Herkamire> I remember it had a funny way of hopping around when you scanned throught the links
22:36:34 <kc5tja> Numbered?
22:37:21 <imaginator> The most annoying thing about w3m for me was the text copying.  It took me quite a while until I studied the xterm code and saw that I could use <Shift> and select text to copy.
22:38:29 <imaginator> oh, and missing Javascript.
22:38:30 <fridge> I thouhght it was 'links' that operated in such a manner
22:44:03 <fridge> I hope ultratechnology doesn't mind me sucking down all the videos
22:46:29 <Herkamire> lynx has a usefull feature hidden in the settings page: it will number the links. you can type the number, and hit enter and it will go to that link
22:47:11 --- quit: Sonarman ("leaving")
22:48:36 <kc5tja> Herkamire: As far as I know, w3m doesn't have that feature.
22:53:22 <Herkamire> the shift-to-select thing is pretty annoying
22:54:22 <kc5tja> shift-to-select?
22:58:47 <Herkamire> lynx and I guess w3m use gdm or something so that it gets mouse clicks. if you want to select characters on your terminal with the mouse, you have to hold down shift.
22:59:40 <Herkamire> w3m has some very nice features over lynx
23:00:17 <imaginator> fridge: they have videos now?
23:00:25 <imaginator> I thought you had to buy them ... 
23:01:20 <imaginator> hmm right in front of my nose :)
23:01:35 <imaginator> awesome
23:02:39 <Serg> how can i say to TAR "compress w/ all of the might" ?
23:02:47 <imaginator> I don't know.
23:03:02 <imaginator> I usually do: tar -cvf dir.tar dir; gzip -9 dir.tar
23:03:06 <imaginator> or bzip2
23:04:54 <imaginator> I had 5 CDs worth of movies from archive.org that I made a tarball of and did that with.  Then I `split` them into 670 MB chunks for burning.  Now I just hope one CD doesn't go bad ...
23:06:37 <ASau> imaginator, try  tar zcvf dir
23:06:52 <imaginator> But -z doesn't use -9 for gzip does it?
23:07:10 <ASau> I've not found difference.
23:10:05 <Herkamire> bzip2 is probably better than gzip -9
23:10:20 <imaginator> The problem with bzip2 is that it's much slower.
23:10:43 <ASau> Herkamire, it's MUCH slower.
23:10:59 <Herkamire> I know
23:11:17 <Herkamire> I was asuming that if he's passing -9 to gzip, size is more of a concern than speed
23:11:33 <imaginator> ah, yes it was.
23:11:39 <imaginator> I may try that with my next series of backups.
23:11:48 <imaginator> It was torture on my disk.
23:11:52 <ASau> BTW, imaginator, try: tar zbcvf 1 dir
23:11:52 <kc5tja> Even better still is bzip2 -9.  :D
23:12:42 <imaginator> b for "blocking factor" ?
23:12:48 <ASau> Yes.
23:13:43 <ASau> You don't have tapes, so you don't need these 10 KB blocks.
23:13:48 <imaginator> One problem I ran into was that it was copying so much from the same disk to the same disk.
23:14:04 * Serg once messed w/ JPEG-like zipping of paletted images
23:14:07 <imaginator> It was horribly slow with the big videos.
23:14:27 <imaginator> I was thinking it would be much faster to copy to a ramdisk big chunks and then write to disk and refill the ramdisk.
23:15:24 <ASau> Tar's blocking is not for caching.
23:16:11 <ASau> When you have many small files you see difference.
23:17:16 <Serg> under windose, i use "solid zip" - first zip up lotsa little filez w/ 0 compress, then zip it w/ max compress
23:17:27 <Serg> it does make difference ^))
23:17:37 <imaginator> I used MinGW's tar in Windows for the videos.
23:17:46 <Serg> but does not beat RAR or BZIP2
23:19:20 * kc5tja can just see files now: foo.zip.zip  :)
23:20:09 <ASau> Serg, that's why separate tar and "compress" exist.
23:21:07 <imaginator> When I wrote a Tcl extension for libbzip2 I noticed that the documentation did mention it can make the output file have more bytes. 
23:21:59 <imaginator> http://mini.net/tcl/4218
23:22:21 <imaginator> "/*The bzip2 documentation says inputLength + %1 + 600 bytes*/"
23:24:55 <Herkamire> hmmmm. w3m looks good so far. I compiled it without gpm (mouse crap)
23:30:10 <Herkamire> rrrrr... that's what bugs me about w3m. you have to scroll through the links to get to the one you want (with tab or arrow keys) and there's no way to tell what order it's going to go to the links in
23:30:11 <imaginator> hmm going over my 3 year old code I spot a bug.
23:30:15 <Herkamire> it doesn't do it top down
23:30:27 <imaginator> Use the mouse?
23:30:57 <kc5tja> Herkamire: My w3m has free-roaming cursor, like vi.  Does yours do that?
23:33:36 <Herkamire> I managed to turn that off
23:35:35 <Herkamire> w3m is getting a lot of points here.
23:35:53 <Herkamire> too bad I can't tell the difference between h1 and h2
23:36:00 <Herkamire> and <em> doesn't show up at all
23:43:11 --- quit: Herkamire ("<<imagine something clever here>>")
23:50:17 --- quit: ASau ()
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/04.03.18