00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.03.11 01:01:34 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK") 01:47:49 --- quit: Serg () 02:02:29 --- part: imaginator left #forth 02:02:29 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 05:13:24 --- quit: ChanServ (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:20:51 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth 05:20:51 --- mode: irc.freenode.net set +o ChanServ 05:25:22 --- join: qFox (C00K13S@cp12172-a.roose1.nb.home.nl) joined #forth 05:32:25 --- quit: fridge (Remote closed the connection) 05:32:38 --- join: fridge (~hovil@CommSecureAustPtyLtd.sb1.optus.net.au) joined #forth 05:34:22 hi 06:10:57 --- join: ASau (~asau@158.250.48.196) joined #forth 06:11:04 Hello, fridge. 06:11:10 Hello, ASau. 06:11:17 Hello, . 06:11:24 Oops! 06:11:31 God kvaell! 06:11:53 * qFox enters god 06:13:53 So what the forth is everyone up to today? 06:15:00 Mine is frozen for several days. 06:15:24 Can't you reboot? 06:15:41 I have another things to do. 06:23:18 whee, I'm taking holidays next week 06:23:39 Going anywhere? 06:24:12 parents farm for a few days, but mainly around home. my fiance is sick in hospital and is undergoing surgery tomorrow 06:24:18 so I will be visiting her most days 06:25:52 Oh... I hope she's OK! 06:29:18 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 06:30:05 madgarden, thanks. 06:31:06 I'll pass it on that some guy on the internet from the other side of the planet whom I've never met is concerned for her welfare, she'll be touched ;) 06:32:13 Hehe, I hope it helps. :) 06:32:25 What side of the planet are you on anyway? 06:32:31 the good side 06:33:00 Hmm... hot or cold right now? 06:33:09 .au 06:34:15 it is probably 19C outside 06:35:47 Nice! Well, at least you're using proper units down there! 06:36:59 292 K is in proper units. 06:39:18 I'm always confused when I hear "900 grades". 06:40:01 I always have to ask "Celsius' or Kelvin's". 06:40:57 or fahrenheit :p 06:40:57 900 grades? 06:42:06 degrees. 06:43:41 what countries use kelvin as their standard heat unit? 06:44:01 i always thought kelvin was only something to be used in physics and chemistry 06:44:19 I'm doing research work. 06:44:41 ah ok 06:44:43 qFox: None. 06:46:21 In 60-th we had meteorogical prognoses with atmospheric pressure in hektopascals. 06:46:27 --- join: networm (~networm@L0649P27.dipool.highway.telekom.at) joined #forth 06:46:35 Dobryjj vecher! 06:46:45 I'm going to name my next kid "Hektopascal." 06:46:50 Guten Tag 06:46:55 lol 06:47:05 hi networm 06:47:13 and what if its a girl? :p 06:47:15 oberheim matrix III 06:47:19 Hektopascala. ;) 06:47:42 thank god i'm not a kid of yours then :p 06:47:45 HEKTO Pascal. :) 06:48:03 networm has an almost complete F83 VM, could be used for a Forthbot in here. 06:48:05 Hector Pascal 06:48:31 Hector-Pascal, then. 06:48:44 john. 06:49:08 How'd you know my dad's name? 06:49:12 Creeeepy... 06:49:29 19 ppl. bound to be someone that knows a john one way or the other :p 06:49:30 yep, i'll try hooking my forth into an x-chat script.. it works with madgarden's Forthy already :) 06:49:51 guess it would need some work to count as a bot 06:50:16 What else does it need to do besides execute Forth? 06:50:51 return complex mathematical formula solutions 06:50:53 qFox, ;P 06:51:33 qFox, why? 06:51:36 although i guess this should be possible anyways, see definitions 06:51:51 i know that you can do it with see 06:51:56 I mean, what other bot-like abilities does it need to be considered a bot? 06:52:17 If all we want is something to communally execute Forth code on, then who needs the rest of the normal bot fluff? 06:52:18 a bot is anything that responds to an event without user interference 06:52:19 imo 06:52:27 either be opping, or text-triggers, or whatever 06:52:43 this being a forth bot, executing forth i guess. 06:52:53 exactly 06:52:57 yes, makes sense.. it should all be written in forth 06:52:58 But, it would be explicitly commanded to do so. 06:53:09 !forth ... 06:53:21 !f 06:53:29 works for me 06:53:31 >bot 06:53:31 :) 06:53:34 ;) 06:53:35 !4th 06:54:08 i would like to be able to see words, and not get stupid code's 06:54:18 except for the words that couldnt be defined any other way 06:54:19 so you need a forth written in forth first 06:54:22 ASau, do you think that FIG, F79 and F83 wordsets could be easily combined in one VM? 06:54:51 networm, either that, or special decompiler functions for code primitives. 06:55:02 hm 06:55:14 or perhaps a help.... like "!see ." would explain that its for printing to the screen or something 06:55:22 networm, You'd need that anyway for things like literals. 06:55:22 but that'll take alot of work :p 06:56:02 yep. i was thinking, something like "see rotate".. it usually gives some asm code i guess 06:56:05 qFox, that's easily done by adding .help words. 06:56:13 see.help 06:56:19 oh then go for it :p 06:56:28 ..help 06:56:29 Heh. 06:56:47 : ..help ." Prints TOS to the screen" cr ; 06:56:57 lol.... 912 spam in my yahoo box 06:56:58 :S 06:57:39 yahoo defo needs a new spamfilter 06:57:45 networm, it only gives ASM code if the decompiler can't decode the words from the dict. 06:58:05 it should have stuff like infinite loop detection 06:58:24 so that IF a user borks up with his code, the bot wont break 06:58:46 Or, a command to reset the VM if it hangs. 06:59:05 !f REBOOT! 06:59:20 !commit suicide NOW 06:59:22 Can an x-chat script restart itself in such a situation? 07:00:16 !f UR FUXX0RZ3D 07:01:31 man, seriously, does this email spamming stuff bring in ANY revenues nowadays? 07:01:51 and i dont mean like 1 stupid retard buying the product 07:01:55 It must. 07:02:29 1 retard in 1,000,000 spams sent is the projection I heard, and it makes them lots of money. 07:02:53 unbelieveable.... i just delete over 900 spams and another appears as i press delete 07:03:16 and another, same spam... wtf 07:03:33 clear! yay :\ 07:04:45 haha 07:04:59 wasn't there a forthbot here previously? 07:05:05 I recall it didn't remember words 07:05:07 heh 07:05:23 you could always make one 07:05:34 Yea, a Forthbot with a block editor would be preferable. 07:05:35 it'd probably be easy to make an IRC interface to isforth 07:05:52 chris-xp, that's not really safe. 07:06:12 The Forth would have to run in a VM. 07:06:31 true... 07:06:37 is4thbot: 0 0 ! 07:06:38 hm 07:06:44 :P 07:06:46 Heh. 07:06:52 whats the second hit for qfox on google.... 07:06:54 hm 07:06:57 who's responsible for that? :p 07:07:01 what would Forthy do with 0 0 ! ? 07:07:06 is4thbot has quit (ACK!! SIGSEGV!!) 07:07:23 networm, it wouldn't allow that... you'd get a "bad reference" error. 07:07:37 ah, ok. so my bot actually was safe, i think :) 07:07:39 well, isforth wqould just SIGSEGV 07:07:48 Just. :P 07:07:49 qfox: its clog 07:08:04 Still, we'd want to be able to crash the VM, but not the application. 07:08:17 lol 07:08:37 4thbot: 0 0 ! 07:08:43 networm, yea your Forthy bot should be safe, especially with the test wordset it had. 07:08:44 http://meme.b9.com/start 07:08:53 <4thbot> madgarden: dammit, wtf? restarting... 07:08:58 <4thbot> ok 07:09:40 <4thbot> VM CRASH: Use REBOOT command 07:10:17 All unused opcodes would be vectored to an abort function. 07:10:49 For infinite loops, it could count iterations, or track time, and give you a warning after X had passed. 07:11:03 and it should count the lines it outputs, and stop after 10 07:11:19 Or pause with a More? prompt. 07:11:23 !f y 07:11:26 !f q 07:11:32 Something like that. 07:11:39 !f u 07:11:41 :p 07:11:45 Hahga 07:11:57 !f off 07:12:30 networm, have you looked into screen/block editing at all? 07:14:34 not yet 07:15:02 It's quite simple and effective. 07:15:12 Was playing around with it in Blazin' Forth. 07:15:17 Well, not editing, but loading and viewing. 07:15:57 yes, loading and viewing seems to be simple. BUFFER and LOAD and so on.. 07:16:17 but for storing something you enter, you need some special wordset 07:16:39 i read in the Blazin' Forth docs about its editor words.. 07:18:21 Well, you're editing a 1K buffer in memory, which gets written to disk. AFAIK. 07:19:05 so there's some way to enter edit mode - and then you can just write characters to the screen? 07:19:16 then when you done, you execute "LOAD"? 07:20:57 That's how you interpret the BLK, yea. 07:21:20 That stuff is in the F83 spec... >IN, BLK, BLOCK. 07:21:35 --- join: Herkamire (stjohns@h000094d30ba2.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 07:21:36 Doesn't talk about an editor, but that part would be simple. 07:21:42 In IRC, it would have to be a line editor I guess. 07:21:57 yes, but >IN BLK BLOCK doesn't seem to help me much in my VM 07:22:11 since I don't know how to write data into the blocks 07:22:30 like, should I make the blocks be parts of an ASCII text file? 07:22:48 so i can edit it in a text editor, then load inside the Forth VM 07:24:02 networm: I make each block a seperate text file 07:24:24 I imagine the simplest way, since it's a Forth-in-C, would be to just specify a text file to line-edit or load, yea. 07:24:30 Don't need to worry about BLOCKs. 07:24:46 But that is how words would be persisted. 07:24:52 You could also save the state of the VM of course. 07:25:00 Probably also as a named file. 07:25:17 networm.fvm 07:25:19 having a textfile for every block seems like a good idea 07:25:29 block1.txt block2.txt block3.txt 07:25:52 That's one way... though, you wouldn't need to be restricted to blocks then. 07:26:24 Since a block is 1K, might just be easier and more convenient to have any size of text file. 07:26:33 Though, block emulation would be nice too. 07:27:04 yep. there could be extra words for files. i still have to look at the ANS file extension 07:27:14 * madgarden is looking for FIG spec... 07:27:50 where is it? i only have F83 and ANS.. 07:27:50 networm, they maybe don't even need to be accessed through words in the Forth system, could be bot commands. 07:28:05 I have blocks/000, blocks/001, blocks/002 etc in my src distro 07:29:05 Something like that would be good. 07:40:55 is someone getting serious about building a good forthbot for this channel? 07:46:12 It's already been done, basically. networm made a Forthbot one day using my Forthy system. He's now got an almost finished F83 VM which could probably be adapted into a bot the same way. 07:46:24 Not that I'm trying to nominate him or anything. ;) 07:47:06 if you dont i will 07:47:08 :) 07:48:36 He doesn't seem to be defending himself at the moment... go for it! ;) 07:48:37 I seccond that 07:48:46 * qFox does. 07:48:51 * qFox did. 07:49:23 hm 07:49:34 my bot is just an xchat script :P 07:49:50 so it goes down every time i log off 07:50:26 Well then... I'm afraid we can't allow you to log off. 07:50:31 Get him, boys! 07:50:35 hehe 07:51:35 you hold him while i disable is powerbutton! 07:51:37 I imagine there's a C bot framework out there that could be used. 07:52:11 probably 07:52:15 qFox, be careful, they use 240V where he comes from! 07:52:20 uh 07:52:24 where i come from you mean? 07:52:25 :p 07:52:34 Hehe, that too I guess. ;) 07:52:35 same area, same voltage 07:52:46 it would still be more interesting to have a bot written in forth.. 07:52:48 Cool, so you guys can both get together and work on the bot... GREAT! 07:52:52 so i'm used to it :p 07:52:55 well 07:53:07 like, implementing all the IRC protocol/standard 07:53:11 at is still a while to walk from nl 07:53:12 :p 07:53:23 networm, that might be a cool accomplishment, but the value of it is questionable. 07:53:35 nah thats useless 07:53:38 create a socket 07:53:49 and implement the basics to connect and interact in a channel 07:54:09 ignore any other msgs.... freenode doesnt even send out pings, it seems 07:54:39 i did such a socket once, its not very hard 07:54:47 yes, should work. but the interesting part would be, to have it all as forth code 07:54:53 or complicated :) implementing the whole irc thing will tkae more work though 07:54:53 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 07:54:58 networm, that's called scope creep. :P 07:55:01 ok true 07:55:29 Also... if the VM managed the IRC connection, then crashing the VM would be bad. :) 07:55:45 haha 07:55:46 yea 07:55:50 hm, i wonder if i should bring wormoid here now.. it has no safety features at all 07:55:58 maybe have a VM in the VM? :p 07:56:19 qFox: freenode does do pings. and it kicks you off if you don't respond 07:56:26 mirc doesnt show them 07:56:38 networm, would be fun for a laugh. 07:56:39 or was freenode the one that did them every 5 hours or something 07:56:45 madgarden: maybe the catch/throw words could help 07:57:08 qFox: irssi doesn't show them either, but my bot I wrote last year got kicked off after 3 hours for not responding to pings. (untill I made it respond) 07:57:12 if anything goes wrong, there would be an exception 07:57:21 hm odd then. ohwell 07:57:33 so you'll have to implement pings too... o_0 :p 07:57:49 the IRC protocol is sooo easy if you have any string support 07:57:54 yep 07:58:01 networm, I just think it's kinda astray from the main goal of a forthbot. 07:58:07 the only tricky thing is flood protection 07:58:31 Forthbot should be just basic Forth, and seperated from IRC. 07:58:53 string support? i guess it's fairly easy to get a basic set of string operations 08:00:15 --- join: wormoid (~wormoid@L0649P27.dipool.highway.telekom.at) joined #forth 08:00:17 networm, I was playing with FOrht strings the other day, and suprised to see that Blazin' Forth had a very similar-minded string wordset. 08:00:21 !f 1 2 + . 08:00:22 @ 3 ok 08:00:35 that's about all it can do right now :P 08:00:35 ! maze 08:00:42 !f maze 08:00:45 !f words 08:00:45 144 words 08:00:50 Hmm. 08:00:59 thank god 08:01:07 something is broken :P 08:01:07 !f order 08:01:08 @ CONTEXT: 08:01:08 CURRENT: 08:01:45 probably freenet has some sort of flood protection :) 08:02:29 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@66-91-231-74.san.rr.com) joined #forth 08:02:36 !f last 08:02:36 @ ok 08:02:36 [ ] : 0 08:02:43 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja 08:02:59 !f word.prev 08:02:59 @ ERROR at 'word.prev': underflow 08:04:00 Nuts, I need to get a word list. I guess I'll run a local Forthy. :) 08:04:28 madgarden: i can see 2 screens full of //\\ in wormoids window, as well as the words list.. freenet must have blocked it from getting here 08:04:29 hi networm, i'm a bot. 08:04:51 Oh, you are clearing the stack after every run, aren't you? 08:04:52 oh.. and all the annoying features i put into it 08:04:56 Haha. 08:05:00 wormoid 08:05:01 hi madgarden, i'm a bot. 08:05:15 What in the world is wormoid? (j/k) 08:05:32 Hey, just tack a ? after its name to prevent it from recognizing its own name, I guess. 08:05:35 xchat script to run madgardens Forthy (i wouldn't call it a bot) 08:05:43 !f : test 10 for rand . next ; test 08:05:44 @ 716866713 757828263 281999264 430563447 29496530 1344249080 1658365085 243686755 1202920217 1639638006 ok 08:06:11 last 08:06:14 !f last 08:06:14 @ ok 08:06:14 [ ] : 0 08:06:23 Oh that's right... no persistence at all! 08:06:30 !f : test 10 for rand 10 mod . next ; test 08:06:31 @ ERROR at 'mod': not found 08:06:36 You execute Forthy each time the script is called. 08:06:42 yes 08:06:49 kc5tja, sorry, Forthy has some wonky words in it. Use % for mod. 08:07:04 !f : test 10 for rand 10 % . next ; test 08:07:04 @ 8 7 5 3 4 8 2 7 3 1 ok 08:07:15 Is it well-protected against things like, : foo recurse ; foo ? 08:07:27 Those words are just the ones I used to test with. 08:07:35 Let's find out! 08:07:43 !f : foo recurse ; foo 08:07:43 !f : foo recurse ; foo 08:07:43 :D 08:07:44 @ ERROR at 'foo': overflow 08:07:44 @ ERROR at 'foo': overflow 08:07:57 No tail call in Forthy. :) 08:08:01 (yet) 08:08:14 Why it printed the error twice, I don't know. 08:08:17 I suppose hanging it right about now wouldn't be a good idea. 08:08:25 madgarden: (look just above your line... :D) 08:08:29 17:07:43 <@kc5tja> !f : foo recurse ; foo 08:08:31 17:07:43 < madgarden> !f : foo recurse ; foo 08:08:35 Same second, even., 08:08:47 Oh, heh. 08:09:03 We're a bit Forth-happy, I see! ;) 08:09:46 !f : test 1+ dup . recurse ; : test 0 test ; test 08:09:46 @ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 ERROR at 'test': overflow 08:09:50 Well, so far, the cost of parts for the ForthBox design (which, I must point out is still incomplete) comes close to 15. 08:10:20 15? I've got 15! 08:10:21 $15 that is. 08:10:22 kc5tja: Not bad. :) 08:10:28 !f see . 08:10:29 @ ERROR at 'see': not found 08:10:34 :\ 08:10:36 kc5tja: In very small quantities? 08:10:40 There is no RAM, no ROM, no I/O of any kind, and no PC board to put it together with. 08:10:41 Sorry, no decompiler yet. 08:10:51 Oh, heh. 08:10:57 That's quite a few limitations :) 08:11:17 lets see if i cna still do it :p 08:11:18 ." hello world" . 08:11:21 !f ." hello world" . 08:11:21 @ ERROR at '."': not found 08:11:28 hm 08:11:34 !f "Hello world" . 08:11:34 @ Hello world ok 08:11:38 !f " 08:11:38 @ ERROR at '"': not found 08:11:45 but.. but... :( 08:11:51 Those words could be added easily. 08:12:00 This is just my test wordset. 08:12:19 networm, I told you that Forthy wouldn't satisfy them. ;) 08:13:08 !f : test 10000000 for next ; pstart test pend / 08:13:12 @ ok 08:13:13 [ 71428592.85714285 ] : 0 08:13:33 !f : test 10000000 for next ; pstart test pend 08:13:34 @ ok 08:13:34 [ 10000003 0.14 ] : 0 08:13:51 networm, how fast is your machine? 08:14:08 That's 71M IPS. 08:14:47 P4-2.5MHz 08:15:10 er 08:15:11 GHz 08:15:22 Is that a recently new box? 08:16:03 Wow, that's fast. 08:16:21 * Robert has his Pentium 200MHz. 08:16:27 !f : test 10000000 begin 1- dup while repeat drop ; pstart test pend over over / 08:16:29 @ ok 08:16:29 [ 40000002 1.98 20202021.21212121 ] : 0 08:16:39 !f 2500000000 71428592 / . 08:16:40 @ 30 ok 08:16:53 !f 0 @ . 08:16:53 @ ERROR at '@': bad reference 08:16:59 so Forthy takes 30 instructions for one word? 08:16:59 * madgarden has a Duron 700. 08:17:22 30 instructions for one word? Eh? 08:17:47 assuming, 2.5GHz means it could do 2.5 billion instructions / sec.. 08:18:06 I don't think it's safe to assume that. 08:18:07 so if the number you got is how many iterations Forthy could do.. 08:18:16 The IPS I'm talking about is Forthy IPS anyway. 08:18:29 Robert: The EEPROM that will sit inside it will cost around $5. 08:19:20 Robert: I was planning on using a single 512KBx8 cache SRAM for it, but I'm having trouble locating the part for it. The only 512Kx8 chip I see stocked at Mouser is a 70ns (just *slightly* fast enough for the Kestrel), for $70. 08:19:50 Whoa, that's a bit expensive. 08:20:00 Do you need that much RAM? 08:20:01 Robert: But if that's all that's available.... 08:20:19 Robert: I don't want memory expansion to ever become an issue. 08:20:38 And, DRAM controllers are damn complicated to design, especially at 12.6MHz. 08:20:40 You'll never have enough RAM for all your needs. :) 08:21:30 !f ' dup 10 + 08:21:30 @ ERROR at '+': bad type 08:21:30 It would feel strange if the RAM was 90% of the total cost. 08:21:42 !f 10 ' dup execute 08:21:42 @ ok 08:21:43 [ 10 10 ] : 0 08:21:52 !f ' dup >name 08:21:52 @ ERROR at '>name': not found 08:21:58 !f ' dup name 08:21:58 @ ok 08:21:58 [ "dup" ] : 0 08:25:12 typechecking?!?! 08:25:48 sometimes the weirdest stuff happens in here 08:26:11 Robert: Well, remember the screen is stored as a bitmap. 40 bytes times 480 lines = 19200 bytes of memory. So let's say 20K. Then there is the 8K of ROM, so we're already close to 32KB (to make it a power of two) in memory space consumption. 08:26:27 Robert: There has to be *at least* 128KB of RAM. I personally won't settle for less. 08:26:40 Herkamire, it's a Forth-inspired C scripting system. 08:26:46 BBL, going for curry. 08:27:34 madgarden: ok. I don't see what that has to do with typechecking though. 08:27:52 kc5tja: I admit too little RAM is annoying, but I still think $70 is expensive for half a MB. 08:32:04 I'm back. 08:32:09 Robert: Especially only 70ns. 08:32:16 I'm sure there are cheaper sources of SRAM available. 08:32:19