00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.03.10 02:06:30 --- join: Hipo (~hipo@dsl-hkigw4na7.dial.inet.fi) joined #forth 02:49:14 --- quit: MarkT ("Leaving") 03:24:44 --- quit: warpzero (Excess Flood) 03:25:40 --- join: warpzero (~warpzero@dsl.142.mt.onewest.net) joined #forth 03:58:19 --- join: qFox (C00K13S@cp12172-a.roose1.nb.home.nl) joined #forth 05:20:11 --- join: hovil (~hovil@CommSecureAustPtyLtd.sb1.optus.net.au) joined #forth 05:31:11 Dobryjj vecher! 05:31:18 Hy... 05:31:33 ' BYE NFA FENCE ! 05:31:42 hoi 05:31:57 FORGET TASK 05:32:08 FORGET INDEX 05:32:11 FORGET LIST 05:32:14 FORGET BYE 05:32:48 forget bye 05:32:48 hehe 05:32:53 VLIST 05:32:55 ... 05:33:03 EXECUTE LIT OK 05:33:21 System works. 05:33:36 think I might take some holidays 05:34:46 It seems I need to change order of works in my dictionary. 05:35:18 So I could FORGET IF 05:36:40 Interesting. 05:37:15 What I can FORGET in addition? 05:37:36 ...can I... 05:38:59 It reminds me a story. 05:39:18 A gamer meets his friend. 05:39:22 A hacher. 05:39:27 ...hacker. 05:40:04 That's drugging BFG-2000. 05:40:34 G: "Where have you found it?" 05:40:51 H: "I've hacked it out of Doom." 05:44:47 Hmm. Stopped as expected on FORGET ? 05:45:01 Could't procede FORGET . 06:04:41 i've hacked it out of doom... :s 06:05:04 I don't get it 06:08:17 Me neither. 06:47:44 Hmm. 06:47:50 No I can FORGET IF 06:48:21 Well, so I can forget practically the whole compiler. 06:48:30 So what? 06:48:37 Is it useful? 06:50:33 FORGET FORGET 06:51:04 That's done long ago. 06:51:32 After such experiments I have to define BYE 06:52:06 Because it's forgotten with all these IFs WHILEs and THENs. 06:52:32 What are you trying to do? 06:53:00 Nothing special. 06:53:04 I'm resting. 06:54:33 Actually, today I've done what I was to do in the beginning of February. 06:55:46 You may consider this as training before hard core hackers game. :) 06:56:02 The latter was suggested in SU.FORTH 06:56:12 Conditions: 06:57:19 PC with network connection; FDD, several FDs 06:57:30 and any documentation. 06:58:03 Goal: write an OS for sending e-mail message. 07:16:40 I think Forth would make a great in-game hacking device. 07:36:58 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 07:52:37 --- join: tathi_ (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 08:09:36 --- quit: tathi (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 08:22:26 Interesting. If I FORGET ' will I be able to compile something at all? 08:23:23 If I leave it I'm able to recover with: ' word CFA , 08:30:42 Ahh, some Forthers really need to go into the "Programming" community in Orkut and bust it up a bit. :) 08:30:55 What's it? 08:43:19 Hmmm. 08:44:02 It seems I'm able to throw off the kernel several words. 08:45:37 How often do you say END instead of UNTIL ? 08:46:18 Or ENDIF instead of THEN ? 09:01:50 --- join: Herkamire (stjohns@h000094d30ba2.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 09:02:04 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@66-91-231-74.san.rr.com) joined #forth 09:02:10 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja 09:22:46 Dobryjj vecher, kc5tja! 09:36:16 privet 09:37:10 Terve! 09:37:20 kak dela? 09:37:30 shto dlja tibja? 09:37:47 Zhizhn' b'jot kljuchom! 09:43:00 right back at ya 09:58:09 --- nick: tathi_ -> tathi 09:59:48 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 09:59:55 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 10:33:04 how many russian forthers visit this channel? 10:34:02 Two. 10:35:33 Do we nee to increase this number? 10:35:40 ...need... 10:36:04 yes! 10:36:41 the more the merrier 10:37:12 is forth taught at russian schools or universities? 10:38:58 No, it is not. 10:53:30 is it taught anywhere? 10:53:42 i mean serious, not just a lesson or two 10:54:07 I don't know. 10:54:53 We have many self-taught people here. 10:56:02 That're the consequences of our educational system of tsarists regime. 10:56:23 Then what's my excuse? 10:57:18 :p 10:57:24 Sorry? 10:57:49 Well I didn't experience a education under tsarist regime. 10:59:44 what kind of education _did_ you experience? 11:01:48 That's not as far in older times as it could seem. 11:03:44 Good ol' Canadian education? 11:03:59 They never taught Forth in school here either. 11:04:24 we should propose it :p 11:05:37 It should go just after ASM and just before Pascal. :P 11:06:41 exactly 11:09:15 And, in an ideal world, it should go after ASM and then just end there. :D 11:15:52 --- join: Nutssh (~Foo@gh-1081.gh.rice.edu) joined #forth 11:16:05 :) 11:16:08 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 12:02:06 --- quit: Nutssh ("Client exiting") 12:14:19 --- join: btbngr (~btbngr@82-69-11-54.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk) joined #forth 12:16:12 --- join: Nutssh (~Foo@gh-1177.gh.rice.edu) joined #forth 12:22:26 Dobryjj vecher! 12:22:35 Privet, ASau. 12:33:48 I've got a suggestion. 12:34:05 Let's rename ourselves into RMF. 12:34:16 "Radical Minimalists' Front." 12:34:20 gn 12:34:25 heh 12:35:25 Heh. 12:35:34 Who would be making the bombs? 12:35:43 chuck. prolly. 12:37:25 You should know that bombs are not the condition to be "Front." 12:37:28 : bomb 0 bomb ; 12:38:15 Herkamire, you've failed. 12:38:16 : BOMB 0 BOMB ; BOMB? MSG # 0 12:38:42 ASau: failed what? 12:38:53 was this a test? 12:38:56 oh no! 12:38:58 To create a bomb. 12:39:45 this life is a test. It is only a test. Had it been an actual life, you would have recieved further instructions on where to go and what to do. 12:40:01 Herkamire: That explains a few things! 12:40:17 hmm. does anyone have any efficient fpu strategies for the x86 using stc? 12:40:42 btbngr, I'm working on it. 12:41:01 Elaborate, please, what do you want? 12:41:39 asau: nothing special, just F+ F* etc. preferably with a single stack. 12:41:48 Grrr! 12:41:56 I can't get any sound with these .asf movies. 12:42:08 hmm 12:42:10 asau: my other option is to tie it in to a BURS code generator. but that's far from brutally simple. 12:42:11 there was some mur in ircnet 12:42:16 it seems that stronger wins 12:42:22 the another has left using the nick 12:42:23 :P 12:42:39 it's quite definitive, as you can't find from irc users gallery that nick anymore 12:42:45 * mur feels controversial 12:42:47 asau: but i'm working on that, too. ;) 12:42:53 who ever was first i have it now :P 12:43:00 hmm 12:43:01 eh 12:43:03 no 12:43:04 hmm 12:43:14 btbngr, do you want to hold FPN on the data stack? 12:43:24 PF 12:43:26 hah 12:43:34 asau: if not actually, virtually. keeps my brain sane. 12:43:38 Robert, are you using mplayer? 12:43:57 asau: will be interfacing to ogl, hence i need floats. 12:44:12 btbngr, that's not as useful as having FPN on another stack. 12:44:24 btbngr, I mean interlnal FPU's one. 12:44:31 ...internal... 12:44:49 asau: hmm. you're probably right. although then we only have an 8 deep stack, and i'm a recursion whore :) 12:45:26 btbngr, I think that we can work it out. 12:45:33 would be waay more efficient tho. 12:45:44 btbngr, we could be able to handle FPU exceptions. 12:46:07 btbngr, of course this adds much complexity. 12:46:19 asau: ah, then page out the fpu stack. 12:46:46 asau: yes, it does. it's a nightmare trying to find the balance. 12:46:54 hovil: Yes. 12:47:01 btbngr, it seems we need it. 12:47:43 I tried downloading the codec pack, but that doesn't work either. 12:48:01 asau: you may be right. i'm managing to fight off a lot of complexity in a float compiler using state machines and tables. 12:48:02 btbngr, another way is saving FPU stack on D.S. before recursion and restoring it after. 12:48:11 s/float/integer compiler. duh. 12:48:49 Of course that doesn't avoid radical way. 12:48:58 "Do Not Do It!" 12:49:31 asau: hehehe 12:49:45 In this case we have to make our calculations extremely greedy. 12:50:23 asau: yeah. but then we're talking about a full blown compiler to prevent code confusion, i fear. 12:50:32 asau: or a smart inliner 12:51:05 Smart inliner is not my way for today. 12:51:30 It seems C.M.'s has the point. 12:52:28 asau: oh he does. smart guy. although worth mentioning that his colorforth implementation causes code cache flushes due to single segment model. 12:52:49 asau: would recommend moving the volatile data about 16k away from the code. 12:53:31 asau: are you adopting MForth btw? 12:53:39 Optimisation is not as necessary for me. 12:53:54 I have one-time tasks in main part. 12:54:27 Otherwise they're not numeric. 12:55:17 asau: there is always asm for when the going gets tough anyhow. 12:56:24 hmz. have to idle for a bit. interesting topic though, we will continue this later... 12:58:00 --- quit: ayrnieu (Success) 13:01:22 --- quit: hovil ("Leaving") 13:03:49 --- join: ribbon (~ribbon@cpc1-bolt4-5-0-cust161.mant.cable.ntl.com) joined #forth 13:04:13 Dobryjj vecher! 13:31:46 mur: do you pronouce your nick like half of murmur? 13:33:10 * ribbon how many of those in here have written their own systems ~ 13:35:15 Quite a few, I think. 13:36:03 --- join: wossname (wossname@HSE-MTL-ppp61531.qc.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 13:41:52 --- part: Hipo left #forth 13:43:47 Anyone, personally, built an OS from the ground up? 13:44:12 yeah 13:44:26 You got networking code? 13:44:28 it doesn't do much tho 13:44:41 So you don't use it exclusively? 13:44:49 no, I don't use it at all 13:44:53 :) 13:44:54 its useless 13:45:05 be more specific about what an os is. i mean, you can make a really stupid bootsector `os' 13:45:15 how much of the system must be operated by the code? :l 13:45:16 hey 13:45:32 hi fridge ~ 13:45:33 A reasonably complete system that does most of the function one wants of it... 13:45:38 how'd you guess? 13:45:46 =) 13:45:46 ah, you mean prints out "zomg wtf lol" and hangs? 13:45:52 * fridge nods 13:46:00 that's all the function you need dude ;D 13:46:02 ...for example, I'd be interested in email, web browsing, programming... 13:52:31 ribbon, join our Forth OS efforts. 13:52:43 The question I'm trying to answer is: 'Is it for an individual to implement a complete system in a reasonable amount of time?' 13:52:53 no 13:52:56 ASau: What are the goals of your project? 13:53:14 ribbon, you may borrow code. 13:53:24 from all the people i've seen hacking away at operating systems, it seems that it is for an individual to write a working core that could accomodate a complete system 13:53:33 Ability to operate independently of any OS. 13:53:36 if you try to be completist, you will die trying 13:54:04 you can reasonably be completist for your own hardware only, i guess 13:55:03 it's also dependent on the scope of your project. 13:55:08 Ok - scratch the unattainable 'complete', and replace it with 'practically useful for daily personal usage' 13:55:28 if you're just going to embed onto a microcontroller, you can do it. 13:55:55 well, it depends on how comfortable you will be using your own tools 13:56:13 plus all those gnu tools + public domain stuff.. 13:56:16 heh. more comfortable than using other peoples, but i'm a paranoid weirdo :) 13:56:43 writing a forth is a fun hobby, but for real work you'd probably be best off using an existing codebase. 13:56:56 you can do it, ribbon, but it might be nicer if your computer is a few generations older than cutting edge 13:57:12 btbngr, you can base on p.d. code and elaborate your own. 13:57:35 btbngr, who forbids you reworking p.d. code? 13:57:58 asau: hehe. true ;) 13:58:30 people who write their own operating systems .. they love to burn their wheels and construct crude ones out of rocks 13:58:51 hehe, i dunno, i've done useful work from bootstraps. 13:58:58 benchmarking instructions mostly. 13:59:06 What about those people who create their own programming languages? ;) 13:59:23 ribbon: depends on the results :) 13:59:44 wossname, anyway those only people could produce conceptually new things. 14:00:01 i'm not saying it's bad, or not useful 14:00:08 i just like making untrue generalizations 14:01:07 * ribbon points at wossname 14:01:15 i think the biggest obstacle these days is obtaining the h/w specs. 14:01:25 everything is an asset to these corporations these days. 14:01:56 yeah, they act like they DON'T want to sell their hardware 14:01:59 for example, i feel rather goofy strapping my forths to a linux distro just so I can access features on my video card. 14:02:11 for example, try to get printer protocol out of lexmark 14:02:15 those stingy bastards 14:02:31 the nvidia drivers are an N meg binary, and life is just too short to reverse it. 14:02:43 but omg secret apis 14:02:50 i could instrument the binary and work from code coverage, but gaah. 14:03:10 you'd think that keeping the hardware interface open would help them sell more 14:03:33 * ribbon asks the questions, 'But is rolling your own ever worthwhile?' 14:03:35 although, when you're nvidia, sales earned from this would be insignificant ^_~ 14:03:59 ribbon: depends if you enjoy using things not invented here 14:04:21 how can you trust all those programs, if you didn't write each and every byte?!? 14:04:26 :) 14:04:40 ribbon, that depends on your own intentions. 14:05:10 You should decide clearly, what you want. 14:05:20 Even if one writes one's own code, how can one be certain it is all good? 14:05:51 well. it seems you're not made of the right stuff, then. 14:05:57 ,-) 14:06:23 you need more confidence. every line of code that springs from your fingers bears a divine aura 14:06:40 wossname: I use specification and verification for that ;) 14:06:52 (Or I would, if I had the tools :P) 14:07:04 ribbon: pen, paper, big wastebin 14:07:17 ribbon: maybe an agreement with the local trash collectors. 14:07:42 btbngr: And an infinite amount of time? But surely we could throw a machine at such a menial repetative task ;) 14:08:00 you could generate every possible file. and then have your operating system execute all of them 14:08:06 then you'll know the truth 14:08:19 wossname: What truth? 14:08:24 when it crashes, another machine reboots it, and randomly generates new source code 14:08:34 your operating system will eventually become perfect. mmmm 14:08:44 wossname: By what definition? 14:08:59 by the definition of it never crashes, oi the machines seem to like it so its good enough for me 14:09:09 And are you certain that the hardware contains no bugs? ;) 14:09:28 * ribbon hands wossname a pebble ;) 14:09:38 you could have a flailing machine, to flail about and hit all the interactive bits of the computer 14:09:44 * ribbon hears the sound of one hand clapping. 14:09:58 "cl-"? 14:09:58 :~-) 14:10:14 there's a machine to generate the sound of one hand clapping, too. 14:10:23 i folded it out of paper myself. 14:10:30 I know ideal OS! 14:10:44 It works without any crash. 14:10:56 boot: jmp $ 14:10:58 =7 14:11:37 btbngr, what if your bus fails? 14:11:58 damn 14:11:58 E.g. gives wrong instruction into CPU. 14:11:59 heh. 14:12:14 okay. fill the rest of ram with nops. 14:12:17 hardware is just meat, pitiful bones and bolts to support the beautiful frameworks of software gods 14:12:34 then stick jmp $ at the end of ram. *hopefully* it'd get there again :) 14:12:40 jmp boot even. bleh 14:12:47 what if the ram is corrupt? :l 14:12:47 btbngr, RAM also is not fail safe. 14:13:01 hmm. 14:13:08 how about the famed 1010 processor? 14:13:13 How will you be able to tell that it's crashed? 14:13:22 4 bits of memory, 2 instructions, jmp and nop 14:13:34 ribbon: an ice of course :) 14:16:25 One can create standards at a faster rate that one can implement them... 14:17:17 See the difference between FIG and ANS Forthes. 14:18:34 standards provide the undefined behavious with which you will hang yourself. 14:18:46 standards are built to be broken 14:19:10 ans is waay to big anyhow. 14:19:33 forth83 is cute though. 14:20:15 wossname, are you Russian? 14:20:29 Haha. 14:20:49 hehe 14:21:29 no, asau. i am canadian, though, so it can get cold here too ~ 14:22:25 You've recalled this proverb even earlier than me. 14:26:25 * ribbon sleep now 14:26:32 --- quit: ribbon ("A life without distinction") 14:32:49 --- quit: wossname (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 14:33:07 --- join: randolm (wossname@HSE-MTL-ppp61531.qc.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 14:33:40 --- nick: randolm -> wossname 14:47:20 --- join: ayrnieu (julian@206.61.132.184) joined #forth 14:51:46 Dobryjj vecher, ayrnieu! 14:53:04 dobryjj vecher, ASau 14:57:28 Well, and how's your Forth today? 14:59:35 --- quit: wossname ("zomg") 15:01:56 I just survived a test, I think. 15:02:40 ANS? 15:02:59 Or survival one/? 15:03:07 No, a graded one. 15:03:16 Ah! 15:03:32 So you're resting too. 15:03:50 resting for less than an hour, before I set off to do some more work. 15:04:05 totally different work, blessedly. 15:35:37 --- join: blockhead (default@dialin-1-tnt.nyc.bestweb.net) joined #forth 15:36:50 Dobryjj vecher! 15:38:19 --- join: chris-xp (~Chris@wbar8.lax1-4-11-099-104.dsl-verizon.net) joined #forth 15:38:29 * chris-xp sings "vital siigns..." 15:38:36 man, i love rush :) 15:38:49 "Do Not Do It!" 15:38:54 Dobryjj vecher! 15:39:05 Privet, chris-xp. 15:41:00 terve Robert, ASau :) 15:43:12 Hoe gaat het? 15:43:29 Robert: mir geht es gut, und dir? 15:44:01 Också bra. 15:44:17 6-language conversation. Yay. 15:44:24 ^_^ 15:44:39 IRC rocks. 15:46:26 yep 15:46:31 what a great media 15:46:37 so old, yet so great 15:47:00 Er, yes, old.. 15:47:32 :) 15:47:42 Robert: making another VM anytime soon? :P 15:47:49 * Robert makes chris-xp do telegraphy instead. 15:47:54 Who knows? 15:48:26 dunno ... although I didn't really do anything with it, Tin[y/ier]VM was fun 15:48:52 MTV was even more fun., 15:49:05 Only one with a Forth system. :) 15:49:11 xheh 15:49:18 the other ones were all forthish though 15:49:57 Sure. 15:50:03 I remember not liking the fact you named push and pop r> and >r :P 15:50:20 Why not? 15:50:26 They're shorter, descriptive, etc. 15:50:39 r>d> :-D 15:50:50 How's that pronounced? 15:51:46 no idea :) 15:51:52 hrm. 15:52:05 r2d2? 15:52:14 How about a VM with possibly infinite registers ... ^__^ 15:52:21 blockhead: :P 15:52:28 Isn't it Java? 15:52:46 I don't like coffee... 15:53:27 See Russian-Tea-HOWTO 15:55:19 Yep. 15:55:59 Any Forther should be able to see that poorly hidden Star Wars reference! 15:57:56 I've started experiments on shell substitution. 15:58:08 Yesterday. 15:58:19 --- quit: btbngr (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 15:58:35 First results have been got. 15:58:52 DON'T HURT ME DON'T DO IT 15:59:22 * blockhead hurts warpzero 15:59:30 :) 16:00:16 It's rather easy to catenate several files/streams. 16:00:33 Isn't it good? 16:01:49 Syntax is rather weird, but we're not easy life lovers. 16:03:12 We're not? Damn, I must be in the wrong channel. 16:03:31 l0l 16:03:52 We're _professionals_ of easy life. 16:05:45 WR file-to-write RD file-to-read OVER +! RD next-file OVER +! ... SWAP last-file +! 16:06:06 Easy done. 16:06:19 Optimisations made: 16:06:34 1. +! closes read file/stream 16:06:57 2. It does not close output file/stream. 16:07:32 3. In case of error ABORT is called. 16:08:34 Drawbacks found: 16:08:56 1. Close operation required. 16:09:19 2. Too many OVERs. 16:10:11 Scripting is easy. 16:10:40 In-line data easilty are added. 16:13:40 hrm, just came up with a socialistic-like domed city :P 16:13:51 a little too socialistic, but it could work. 16:14:10 theres been enough failed radical socialisms to see many drawbacks :P 16:14:55 chris-xp, read about utopian socialism. 16:15:54 Mmm.. Utopia. 16:16:34 I can't recall precisely. It seems that it was Lenin. 16:16:57 Socialism require different enough culture. 16:17:35 Where money isn't valued above all other things? ;) 16:18:29 No. Where money have their _real_ value. 16:19:45 google yeilded this: http://www.the-wood.org/socialism/utopian.htm 16:20:40 There're Lenin's words. Approx. "even homemaid is (should be) able to govern country." 16:21:13 He was strongly critisized for this words. 16:21:44 Well, obviously the elite wouldn't agree. :) 16:21:56 Main flaw of this critics is this. 16:22:19 The quotation is taken out of its context. 16:23:12 Lenin assumed that this cook-woman has necessary education _by_definition_. 16:24:19 As nobody has forbidden her to study and she does have necessary level of self-esteem. 16:25:00 Well. I hope you'll understand if you wish. 16:25:24 I don't know actual English translation of terms. 16:25:32 O! 16:25:42 It's like OSS movement. 16:26:05 OSS? 16:26:05 You have to adopt new culture to be in sync. 16:26:12 Open Source Software? 16:26:17 Yes. 16:26:28 How do you mean? 16:26:37 It's good enough model of socialism. 16:27:28 Copyleft means collective property. 16:29:12 Society owns software and noone can make money on its expropriation/exploitation. 16:30:19 Yes. 16:31:45 Well, you see that not so many companies could adopt new culture of development. 16:32:25 And there're oppotunists' countermovements even in OSS itself. 16:33:12 There're "bolsheviks" (called "stallmanists") and "mensheviks" (called "raymondists"). 16:33:29 Wah! Analogy. 16:33:50 :D 16:34:43 Also there is "anarchists' wing" like p.d. radicals. 16:36:15 The good guys. ;) 16:52:23 --- join: Sonarman (~user@adsl-64-169-94-58.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 16:53:05 Robert, see there: http://forum.tsi.lv/viewtopic.php?p=668&sid=a7c8b50a467c067c2812be44fa2ee2d4 16:53:28 Dobryjj vecher, Sonarman! 16:53:36 Hi! 16:54:30