00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.03.08
00:00:07 <ayrnieu> chris - it has socket.fs , which does a little bit of sockaddr handling and an inappropriate-for-wider-use open-socket
00:01:23 <chris-cyg> kc5tja: http://slashdot.org/articles/04/03/08/0221228.shtml
00:01:42 <chris-cyg> ayrnieu: come on, its easy to do :)
00:05:08 <kc5tja> chris-cyg: Yeah, . . . and?  :)
00:05:19 <kc5tja> It's probably just some bizarre variation of 802.11b or something.
00:05:57 * kc5tja would still prefer something in the lower bands, like in the 2m or 70cm bands, where omnidirectional antennas can be used with only modest power.
00:06:25 * kc5tja , having been without Internet for 1.5 days, has spent some time thinking about the amateur radio internetwork ideal, and why it is truely needed.
00:11:26 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK")
00:17:07 <chris-cyg> heh
00:17:09 <chris-cyg> man
00:17:17 <chris-cyg> this cartoon network is hilarious :)
00:26:56 --- quit: ayrnieu (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
00:54:03 --- quit: jdrake ("Oops. This machine just fell asleep")
01:41:35 <ASau> Dobryjj den'!
01:42:53 --- quit: Nutssh ("Client exiting")
01:46:37 <ASau> madgarden, when you wake up.
01:46:47 <ASau> I'm not using ANS.
01:48:18 <ASau> My ' gives me PFA. I don't know what >BODY does, I can guess it returns PFA, but I don't know what it consumes.
01:48:39 <ASau> I think your idea of assigning string is good.
01:49:19 <ASau> I think it is better to copy string into allocated place _and_
01:49:51 <ASau> (Attention!)  fill the space left with blanks.
01:50:30 <ASau> When you print string you can use -TRAILING :
01:50:42 <ASau> str COUNT -TRAILING TYPE
02:00:11 <ASau> Something of this kind:
02:00:12 <ASau> : !"   COUNT  2DUP BLANKS
02:00:13 <ASau>        CHAR " WORD HERE COUNT >R -ROT
02:00:13 <ASau>        R> MIN CMOVE ;
03:12:45 --- quit: fridge ("Client exiting")
04:01:39 --- quit: Robert ("brb")
04:13:02 --- join: qFox (C00K13S@cp12172-a.roose1.nb.home.nl) joined #forth
04:15:47 <ASau> Dobryjj den', qFox!
04:32:11 --- join: chris-xp (~Chris@wbar8.lax1-4-11-099-104.dsl-verizon.net) joined #forth
04:38:35 <chris-xp> nobody awake at this god-forsalen hour except for me :)
04:40:37 <ASau> Dobryjj den', chris-xp!
04:40:59 <chris-xp> Dobruo utro :)
04:41:13 <chris-xp> (I assume den' means day, right? :))
04:41:19 <ASau> Right.
04:41:34 <chris-xp> heh
04:41:43 <chris-xp> 4:45am here, haven't slept at all yet
04:41:44 <chris-xp> lol
04:42:17 <ASau> 3 pm here.
04:42:19 <chris-xp> hrm, I made my Windows XP look very nice.
04:42:24 <chris-xp> heh, I wish :P
04:42:44 --- join: Robert (~snofs@c-2c5a71d5.17-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) joined #forth
04:43:16 <ASau> Dobryjj den', Robert!
04:43:23 <ASau> God dag.
04:43:31 <Robert> Privet, ASau!
04:43:36 <Robert> :)
04:43:46 <ASau> How's "evening" in Swedish?
04:44:01 <ASau> Abend?
04:44:09 <Robert> "God kväll" (or the more eldery, "god afton")
04:44:19 <Robert> Nein, das ist Duetsch.
04:44:26 <ASau> E-e-e.
04:44:29 <chris-xp> :)
04:44:33 <ASau> "kvael"?
04:44:34 <Robert> Hi chris-xp 
04:44:38 <chris-xp> Robert: :)
04:44:43 <ASau> Or "kvoel"?
04:44:43 <Robert> ASau: "kvaell"
04:45:08 <Robert> I'll get something to eat now (Chili!)
04:45:10 <Robert> brb
04:45:30 <chris-xp> Robert: fast 5 uhr morgens hier. Ich muss um halb 7 aufstehen, und hab noch nicht geschlafen, und muss auch noch einen Aufsatz fertig schreiben.
04:45:33 <chris-xp> :)
04:45:52 <Robert> Hooray
04:46:34 <Robert> I have to do this speech on time, bleh.
04:47:37 <ASau> That's common problem, you need to get up in an our when you've got no sleep.
04:48:38 <chris-xp> yeah :(
04:48:48 <chris-xp> then again, I really did bring it upon myself today.
04:49:02 <chris-xp> Shoulda had this done 4 hours ago
04:49:19 <chris-xp> was making my Windows XP look prtetty instead :P
04:54:37 <ASau> I make Windows look pretty by switching off everything I can reach. :)
04:55:01 <ASau> "*Step forever!"
04:56:08 <chris-xp> :)
04:56:19 <chris-xp> actually, I like it right now.
04:56:37 <chris-xp> it has an Aqua theme.
04:56:56 <chris-xp> Also, I got some powertoys and switched some stuff around.
04:57:20 <chris-xp> On the lower part of the screen, I have the start menu, task bar, and the system tray
04:57:48 <chris-xp> at the top, I got the quick launch, the desktop pager, and a cool thing where I type in a URL and it'll open up a web browser for me :)
04:57:53 <chris-xp> Its really great.
05:13:30 <ASau> In my WindowMaker I've rebound keys for I could use no mouse.
05:13:39 <ASau> At all.
05:18:19 * warpzero is back (gone 75:13:53)
05:27:33 <ASau> Dobryjj den'!
05:28:28 * Robert returns from Fantasia and Chili.
05:39:33 <warpzero> fuck im hungry
05:40:00 <Robert> :(
05:41:53 --- join: fridge (~hovil@CommSecureAustPtyLtd.sb1.optus.net.au) joined #forth
05:42:15 <Robert> Hi fridge 
05:49:18 <ASau> God dag!
05:49:23 <Robert> :)
05:49:32 <Robert> ASau is the multi-language greeting bot.
05:49:55 <warpzero> wow thats pretty cool
05:49:57 <warpzero> who's is he?
05:50:04 <warpzero> ASau: botsnack
05:51:58 <ASau> It should be interesting to automate this.
05:52:26 <qFox> not really a challange
05:52:43 <ASau> On entering instead of me a program emits greeting.
05:52:57 <ASau> Statistics for users.
05:52:59 <qFox> in forth perhaps, but i can do it easily :)
05:53:09 <ASau> Using accessible info on country.
05:53:15 <qFox> hm
05:53:31 <qFox> country would be based on one's hostname, and can still be grepped from a simple file
05:53:54 <ASau> Hm. Do you see my hostname?
05:54:11 <qFox> nop
05:54:26 <qFox> how else would you know.
05:54:32 <ASau> AFAICS you have to trace me to get it.
05:54:41 <qFox> afaic i wont bother :p
05:54:52 <qFox> afaik
05:55:05 <qFox> i dont know the cs version :)
05:56:38 <ASau> Imagine what would be when more than one users start using AI additions in their IRC access tools.
05:56:58 <ASau> Conversation of two AI...
05:57:14 <qFox> possible, limited and boring, but possible
05:57:46 <ASau> I know it's possible.
05:57:51 <qFox> :)
05:58:04 <ASau> Maniac spoked to Eliza.
05:58:36 <ASau> Or how has it been called?
06:00:27 --- quit: imaginator (".")
06:08:10 <madgarden> There should at least be a Forth-script bot in here.
06:11:23 <Robert> We used to have a few.
06:11:49 <madgarden> What happened to them?
06:11:55 <Robert> I think Herkamire had one of them. Maybe Speuler had the other, don't remember...
06:11:57 <Robert> Not sure.
06:12:03 <chris-xp>  I ATE THEM
06:12:04 <madgarden> They were programmable?
06:12:08 <Robert> Their owners are not here very often these days.
06:12:12 <Robert> No. :/
06:12:18 <madgarden> Well that's no good. :P
06:12:26 <madgarden> Need a Forth bot that you can write programs on! 
06:12:31 <Robert> You're welcome to write one.
06:12:54 <madgarden> Well, if I wrote one, it would be using Forthy. It probably wouldn't satisfy the advanced Forthers.
06:13:09 <madgarden> Actually, networm had quickly made one that used it.
06:23:50 <qFox> hm
06:24:04 <qFox> no i have too much on my hands as it is sorry
06:24:08 <qFox> :)
08:17:14 --- join: Foxster (poohka@user-v8ldv6h.dsl.mindspring.com) joined #forth
08:19:49 --- nick: Foxster -> theFox
08:21:22 --- quit: theFox (Client Quit)
08:26:24 --- join: segher (~segher@blueice4n1.de.ibm.com) joined #forth
08:28:12 <ASau> Guten abend, segher!
08:35:38 --- quit: fridge ("Leaving")
08:47:36 --- join: fridge (~hovil@CommSecureAustPtyLtd.sb1.optus.net.au) joined #forth
08:50:21 <ASau> Set of utilities for unixoids:
08:50:35 <ASau> 1) dd conv=unblock cbs=64 obs=1
08:51:13 <ASau> 2) sed 's/.\{64\}/&\n'
08:51:39 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth
08:52:06 <ASau> 2) sed 's/.\{64\}/&\n/g'
08:52:25 <ASau> 1) dd conv=unblock cbs=64
08:54:30 <ASau> Dobryjj vecher, tathi!
08:56:08 <ASau> Reverse: dd conv=block cbs=64
08:58:13 <tathi> Hi ASau
09:21:25 <segher> howdy
11:35:42 --- join: jdrake (~uniq1@CPE00045afdd0e8-CM014410113717.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth
11:41:46 <fridge> ASau, uhhh?
11:42:38 <fridge> what does it do?
11:43:43 <ASau> It converts blocks to lines and back.
11:44:52 <ASau> I mean Forth blocked files and regular text.
11:46:38 <ASau> Actually, most time I use "gema".
11:47:17 <ASau> See: http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/gema/
11:49:34 <ASau> BTW, it seems "dd" wasn't originally UNIX tool.
11:50:10 <ASau> Possibly it descends from DEC world.
11:52:15 <ASau> Or, from Digital's CP/M
12:01:58 <ASau> Yeah. No unixoid could think out "if=in-file" and "of=out-file" options.
12:02:13 <ASau> It's more CP/M-like.
12:02:19 <Robert> Yum, CP/M
12:02:36 * Robert hates it a bit
12:03:06 <ASau> Why?
12:03:34 <Robert> Primitive. :(
12:03:46 <ASau> Forth is primitive too.
12:03:52 <Robert> You got me there...
12:04:02 <madgarden> Forth is extensible.
12:04:40 <ASau> UNIX is no more "non-primitive" with its "everything is an octet stream" view.
12:05:08 <ASau> madgarden, CP/M is extensible too.
12:05:38 <madgarden> Oh?
12:05:53 <ASau> Who ever has forbidden you deal with it your own way?
12:06:40 <ASau> BTW, has you read Pike's "System Software Research Is Irrelevant"?
12:06:47 <madgarden> Was CP/M designed with extensibility in mind?
12:06:52 <madgarden> Nope.
12:07:17 <ASau> Do you think Forth was designed with extensibiliry in mind? Or UNIX?
12:07:31 --- quit: segher (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
12:08:08 <ASau> There's no major OS or PL designed with such intentions.
12:08:31 <ASau> I've never heard of such.
12:08:38 <madgarden> Forth is not?
12:09:04 <ASau> C.M. designed it for telescope control.
12:09:13 <ASau> No extensibility in mind.
12:09:20 <ASau> Read the papers.
12:09:32 <madgarden> But, by nature it is extensible.
12:09:34 <ASau> It's a myth.
12:10:00 <madgarden> OK, so Forth extensibility is an accident.
12:10:17 <ASau> Yes.
12:10:39 <ASau> So do Lisp's one.
12:10:51 <ASau> ...etc.
12:15:28 --- join: ayrnieu (julian@206.61.132.184) joined #forth
12:16:17 <ASau> Guten Abend!
12:23:25 <ASau> Robert, madgarden. "Unix Hater's Book" is good reading too.
12:23:40 <Robert> Hehe
12:23:53 <Robert> I don't love UNIX/Linux, I just use it.
12:24:22 <Robert> Don't hate it either.
12:26:06 <ASau> Read the book. It's rather interesting.
12:28:36 <fridge> UNIX haters should write a better OS =)
12:29:17 <Robert> fridge: They have, it's called colorForth!
12:29:26 <Robert> Er, wait.. you said "better". Nevermind.
12:30:21 <ASau> fridge, it is called MS Windows or VAX VMS depending on person.
12:30:42 <ASau> Actually, GNU fixes some of UNIX mistakes.
12:30:57 <Robert> I wouldn't call Windows better...
12:31:52 <ASau> And there's Emacs.
12:32:35 <madgarden> C64 BASIC.
12:33:34 <ASau> BTW, have anyone run something on bare Linux kernel?
12:33:42 <ASau> I've run Emacs there.
12:34:15 <fridge> I've run init
12:34:17 <Robert> Heh.
12:34:18 <ASau> vmlinux root=/dev/hdXXX rw init=/usr/bin/emacs ...
12:34:32 * Robert doesn't do emacs.
12:34:55 <ASau> I don't remember how enviromnet is set in options.
12:35:24 <ASau> The most interesting things happens when you try to exit.
12:35:45 --- quit: madgarden (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
12:36:09 <ASau> Robert, you can try to run Gforth there.
12:36:21 <Robert> Heh
12:36:52 <ASau> Really.
12:37:23 <ASau> Don't you read manuals?
12:37:30 <ASau> Read one for kernel.
12:38:35 <ASau> You're of more concern how to proceed further, not of how to start.
12:39:08 <ASau> That's the same as for DOS.
12:39:34 <ASau> In DOS you have to write in CONFIG.SYS: SHELL=your.exe
12:40:51 <ASau> In Linux you have to write "init=/path/to/your/exe" in /etc/lilo.conf
12:41:17 <ASau> Or respective options for GRUB.
12:42:25 <fridge> who reads manual
12:42:30 <fridge> takes out all the fun
12:43:16 <ASau> I don't know how it's for BSDs.
12:43:44 <ASau> But I have no reason to think it's more complex there.
12:44:25 <ASau> Hmmm.
12:44:43 <ASau> It's interesting how it's for NT...
12:45:03 <ASau> Who knows of any docs for NT kernel?
12:45:49 <ASau> New kind of OS: Gforth/NT
12:45:51 <ASau> :)))
12:47:00 <tathi> ASau: I wrote my own init system once...
12:47:31 <ASau> tathi. Do you mean boot loader?
12:48:13 <ASau> Or do you mean another "init" for *nix?
12:50:43 <tathi> init for *nix
12:50:53 <tathi> well, just for PPC Linux, actually
12:51:32 <tathi> I didn't use it all that long, but yeah, I've run stuff on the bare kernel.
12:52:12 <ASau> AFAIK, it should not differ much from regular root process.
12:53:37 <tathi> yup
12:55:24 --- quit: fridge ("Leaving")
12:57:27 --- join: madgarden (~madgarden@Kitchener-HSE-ppp3576712.sympatico.ca) joined #forth
12:57:38 <madgarden> Stupid Trillian.
12:58:30 <ASau> Why bother?
12:58:38 <ASau> You can read logs.
12:59:36 <madgarden> Yes, I just google for "Dobryjj vecher!" and the #forth logs are there.
13:01:53 <ASau> You can reduce you search to looking into bookmarks.
13:02:06 <madgarden> :P
13:02:24 <madgarden> Anyway, I can't chat in the #forth logs.
13:07:16 <ASau> I'm unique.
13:07:26 <ASau> I can find myself with Google.
13:07:59 <ASau> Either in English and in Russian.
13:09:08 <madgarden> Since our Sword of Fargoal remake release, a search for myself finds me topping the list.
13:10:52 <ASau> Search for "madgarden" with Google.
13:11:26 <madgarden> Mostly #forth logs. :P
13:11:33 <madgarden> I was searching for "Paul Pridham".
13:12:49 <ASau> Wah!!!
13:13:25 <ASau> When I search for my name, I find the page of my school.
13:13:30 --- quit: tathi ("leaving")
13:13:35 <madgarden> Heh.
13:14:49 <ASau> First 9 results.
13:32:42 <qFox> i find my name as the cl of my old cs clan on a wolfenstein page... i never participated in wolfenstein with that clan (or any other)
13:33:01 <ASau> Ha!
13:33:17 <ASau> There's a man with the same name as me.
13:33:29 <ASau> _All_ names are the same.
13:35:00 --- join: wossname (wossname@HSE-MTL-ppp61781.qc.sympatico.ca) joined #forth
13:35:42 <ASau> Dobryjj vecher!
13:38:40 <mur> privet
13:38:47 <ASau> Terve!
13:46:03 <mur> kak dela?
13:48:18 --- quit: ChanServ (ACK! SIGSEGV!)
13:48:26 <ASau> Zhizn' b'jot kluchom!
13:50:39 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth
13:50:39 --- mode: irc.freenode.net set +o ChanServ
14:01:14 --- join: fridge (~fridge@dsl-203-33-164-240.NSW.netspace.net.au) joined #forth
14:05:34 --- join: thin (~cduce@csnet045.cariboo.bc.ca) joined #forth
14:05:44 --- part: thin left #forth
14:10:43 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@66-91-231-74.san.rr.com) joined #forth
14:10:52 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja
14:11:13 <ASau> Dobryjj vecher, kc5tja!
14:11:35 <kc5tja> Greetings.
14:20:12 <mur> asau is on talkative mood :)
14:20:21 <mur> what's the time there?
14:22:07 <kc5tja> 14:22
14:25:47 <madgarden> Time is just a blazin' forth, isn't it?
14:31:23 <ASau> ASau is on working mood.
14:31:41 * madgarden is in a job-searching mood.
14:31:44 <wossname> po tay toes
14:31:54 <madgarden> Not like I'm enjoying it.
14:31:55 <ASau> He's many things to do, but no time to sleep.
14:33:04 * kc5tja is also looking for alternative employment at the present time.
14:34:23 <madgarden> Found one job, $40/hour for a 1 year C/C++ compiler-related technical writing contract. I'd just have to convince them that I can write. :)
14:34:38 <kc5tja> madgarden: So write something.  :)
14:35:01 <madgarden> Well I already wrote up my resume! What more do they want... jeez! ;)
14:35:18 <kc5tja> Hehe :D
14:45:21 --- quit: wossname ("sild")
14:50:23 <ASau> BTW, what would you say of this: http://osnews.com/story.php?news_id=6282
14:56:09 <kc5tja> Well, lots of people grew up on the command-line, and I see no particular reason why it ought to be any harder to learn than the GUI.
14:56:39 --- quit: ChanServ (Shutting Down)
14:56:48 <fridge> ASau, the only problem I see with the CLI are things like graphical applications, viewing images web browsing
14:57:23 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth
14:57:23 --- mode: irc.freenode.net set +o ChanServ
15:02:43 <kc5tja> fridge: Use the right tool for the right job.  My ForthBox Kestrel still has a mouse port in its design, despite being primarily text-oriented.  This is because I recognize the importance of the mouse when applied towards truely graphical applications.
15:03:17 * fridge nods
15:20:22 <ASau> I'm back.
15:20:58 <ASau> Have you read the article?
15:21:12 <ASau> It clearly states that CLI is for conversation.
15:21:27 <ASau> Graphical task is not a conversation.
15:21:39 <ASau> It's like playing piano.
15:22:15 <kc5tja> I'm not sure how playing a piano fits into the analogy.
15:22:24 <ASau> Hmm.
15:22:28 <kc5tja> But even a graphical application can be a conversation.
15:22:42 <ASau> Well, painting is not conversational, I think.
15:22:57 <kc5tja> When I click on the paintbrush tool in Gimp, for example, I'm asking it to interpret future clicks in the picture window as drawing, as with a paintbrush.
15:24:08 <ASau> Well, the main is your drawing.
15:24:24 <ASau> Not a selection call.
15:24:36 <ASau> ...main task...
15:24:47 <kc5tja> Right.  
15:25:13 <ASau> It's not a conversation is sense "you asked? get it!"
15:25:20 <kc5tja> It is for me.
15:25:29 <kc5tja> I asked for a paintbrush, and that's what I got.  :)
15:25:33 <ASau> It's continuous.
15:25:41 <kc5tja> I asked for a flood-fill, and that's what I got.  Etc.
15:25:59 <ASau> kc5tja, that's not the main task.
15:26:22 <ASau> _main_
15:26:38 <kc5tja> Drawing *is* the main task when using a graphical editor of any kind.
15:27:07 <ASau> Well, you should separate _drawing_ and tool _selecting_.
15:27:15 <kc5tja> Selecting which tool to use for the purposes of drawing is directly related towards achieving that main task.
15:27:34 <ASau> It's _related_ but not identical.
15:27:41 <kc5tja> Yet without it, there can be no drawing.
15:27:51 <kc5tja> Ergo, it's equally important, and thus, directly relavent.
15:28:11 <ASau> Well, you have to setup your OS, don't you?
15:28:31 <kc5tja> Yes.
15:28:35 <kc5tja> Your point?
15:28:57 <ASau> So let's teach all newbies OS settings.
15:29:08 <ASau> You see direct dependency.
15:29:09 <kc5tja> I wholeheartedly agree.
15:29:19 <kc5tja> I think they *SHOULD* see OS settings and understand what they do.
15:29:30 <ASau> How would you teach Linux setup?
15:29:45 <kc5tja> By teaching the fundamentals, from the ground up.
15:30:06 * kc5tja used to teach networking classes using candy.
15:30:16 <ASau> I've seen technical folk cursing all these unices for compiling steps.
15:30:30 <kc5tja> Candy is a great analogy; a "packet" consists of a wrapper (the network headers) and the confection (the body of the packet).
15:31:01 <kc5tja> Never once did I mention the term 'bit' in my classes.  They didn't need to know that stuff (until we got to IP routing, but even then, towards the very END of the section).
15:31:19 <ASau> Well, the point is that the least time consuming deal may be neglected.
15:31:37 <kc5tja> I'm not understanding you.
15:31:40 <ASau> Not the least by meaning, but by time.
15:32:38 <ASau> In case of drawing your most consuming task is _drawing_.
15:32:54 <kc5tja> Yes, it is.  I don't remember disagreeing with this.
15:33:13 <ASau> And it depends on continuous control very _strong_.
15:33:30 <ASau> It's not conversational.
15:33:37 <kc5tja> It's *highly* conversational.
15:33:42 <kc5tja> I really don't see how you can say it's not.
15:33:52 <ASau> No.
15:33:57 <ASau> You miss the point.
15:34:12 <kc5tja> An interface isn't an interface unless there is two-way communication.
15:34:35 <ASau> For being conversational you should point you're able to operate with _verbal_ orders.
15:34:53 <kc5tja> I disagree.
15:35:19 <kc5tja> I almost never say, "Place the book 14.253183cm from the wall."
15:35:30 <kc5tja> I almost always say, "Put the book down over there," while pointing my finger.
15:36:22 <kc5tja> When my roommate asks me, "Where are your bananas?", I reply, "In the refrigerator."  I never say *where* in the refrigerator precisely, however.  I only give a vague notion of location.
15:36:34 <ASau> You have the same time consumption when you say: "Put the <title> book here."
15:36:52 <kc5tja> Conversation need not be restricted to the precise subset where all relavent details are fully and unambiguously specified in one sentence.
15:37:41 <ASau> My dictionary says: "conversation --- syn. talk".
15:37:57 <kc5tja> My dictionary lists a lot more definitions than just "Talk."
15:38:22 <kc5tja> And, I might add, Russian is one of the *least* well-specified languages compared even to English, itself woefully ambiguous.
15:38:29 <ASau> Well, I don't think you need Cyrillic here. 
15:38:38 <kc5tja> OK, this conversation is over.
15:38:47 <kc5tja> I can't argue.
15:38:55 <kc5tja> I can't argue my point if 100% of my meaning is lost.
15:39:10 <ASau> Well, do you accept "dialogue" instead?
15:39:28 <ASau> It should be more precise.
15:39:38 <kc5tja> Why does it need to be more precise?
15:40:04 <kc5tja> conversation: 2a(1): oral exchange of sentiments, observations, opinions, or ideas <--- hardly very precise.
15:40:09 <kc5tja> (from http://www.m-w.com)
15:40:18 <kc5tja> To continue,
15:40:29 <kc5tja> (2): an instance of such exchange : TALK.
15:40:34 <ASau> "Dialogue" is more appropriate here.
15:40:35 <kc5tja> E.g., talking is just one way to hold a conversation.
15:41:50 <ASau> In "2a" sense of M.-W.
15:42:15 <kc5tja> dialog: 2a: a conversation between two or more persons; also : a similar exchange between a person and something else (as a computer).
15:42:53 <ASau> Add Greek etymology.
15:43:20 <kc5tja> Sorry, but the meaning of words do change over time.
15:43:22 <ASau> Accent on "speak."
15:43:43 <kc5tja> Failure to account for this will inevitably result in the inability to express new ideas or concepts.
15:44:05 <ASau> The meaning of dialogue has changen in English, not in Russian. I should say.
15:44:06 <kc5tja> And, hence, ultimately, the extinction of the species as a whole (cref., neanderthals).
15:44:54 <ASau> "Speak to each other."
15:45:26 <kc5tja> Well, the first point to consider is what definition the author of the article was using.
15:45:34 <ASau> Trasfer of meaning is negligible.
15:45:45 <kc5tja> Transfer of meaning is EVERYTHING and always HAS been.
15:46:03 <kc5tja> How can you logically argue a point if I do not agree with your definition of a critical definition?
15:46:22 <ASau> It's not "everything," as you can point.
15:46:27 <kc5tja> How can the argument be logically valid and self-consistent if the item we're arguing about is wholesale incongruent with what the author intended?
15:46:36 <kc5tja> No, it is everything.
15:46:52 <kc5tja> It's clear our definitions of conversation and dialog are not congruent; ergo, we cannot logically proceed in this argument any further.
15:47:27 <ASau> If you read the article, you've seen what author means. He means: "dialogue" = "speak to each other."
15:48:05 <kc5tja> Yet, Aunt Tillie opening her wicker mail box implies "speaking" to the mailbox?  (I took that right from the article.)
15:48:17 <kc5tja> He references "implicit conversation" several times.
15:48:24 <kc5tja> But I digress.
15:48:57 <kc5tja> I am no longer finding this discussion particularly enlightening nor enjoyable.
15:49:07 <ASau> Well, I don't believe you never have spoken to yourself. :)
15:49:27 <ASau> And to any things.
15:49:49 <ASau> As "what can you show me" to a device.
15:49:57 <kc5tja> And now we bring into question the definition of 'implicit,' as used with 'implicit conversation.'
15:50:27 <kc5tja> Implicit means, well, implied.
15:50:30 <kc5tja> E.g., unvoiced.
15:50:49 <kc5tja> I don't ask my mailbox whether I have any mail every time I go to check the mail.
15:51:05 <kc5tja> Not, at least, in the vocal sense.
15:51:22 <ASau> Have you ever asked any device "what can you show me?"
15:51:27 <kc5tja> No.
15:51:39 <kc5tja> I've often asked, "Why doesn't this @#$$& thing work?!"
15:51:44 <kc5tja> But never, "What can you show me?".
15:52:46 <ASau> See "animism (2)".
15:53:17 <ASau> "man 2 animism" :)
15:53:59 <ASau> Thanks for Merriam-Webster.
15:58:58 --- join: Nutssh (~Foo@gh-1177.gh.rice.edu) joined #forth
16:02:27 --- join: crc (~crc@1Cust209.tnt1.levittown.pa.da.uu.net) joined #forth
16:02:27 --- quit: crc (Client Quit)
16:18:09 --- join: cr3 (~marc@209.71.234.197) joined #forth
16:35:23 --- quit: ianp ("ianp_esrver2")
16:37:00 --- join: ianp (~ian@69.20.54.28) joined #forth
16:39:14 <madgarden> : @#$$&
16:39:14 <madgarden>     FER FUCKS SAKE !
16:39:14 <madgarden> ;
16:40:21 <jdrake> @#$$& not found
16:40:37 <madgarden> FER FUCKS SAKE !
16:41:46 <ASau> How's you Blazin' Forth?
16:42:20 <ASau> Hm.
16:42:36 <ASau> It seems I'm reading thoughts over long distances.
16:43:53 <ASau> I've just taken a look and here's fresh answer. :)
16:50:08 <madgarden> Heh. I was AFK, slicing apples and cheese. :P
17:05:42 <Robert> Damn.
17:06:13 <Robert> Five hours of "debugging", and what do I see? A diode that is turned the wrong way!
17:06:56 <Robert> Now this receiver works perfectly!
17:07:02 <qFox> hehe
17:07:05 * Robert notes school starts in 8 hours.
17:07:12 <Robert> That made me happy. :)
17:07:13 <ASau> You don't see more stupid things.
17:07:20 <qFox> so you have 9 hours of debugging time
17:07:24 <qFox> :p
17:07:24 <Robert> qFox: :D
17:07:31 <Robert> ASau: Was that a question?
17:07:45 <ASau> No.
17:07:50 <ASau> That's a statement.
17:08:30 <Robert> OK, then I didn't get it.
17:09:18 <ASau> You don't see more stupid things than a turned wrong way diode.
17:21:25 <Robert> I suppose not..
17:21:38 <Robert> This VXO's tuning range is pretty unpredictable :)
17:25:07 --- quit: ayrnieu ("leaving")
17:26:36 <qFox> hm
17:26:51 <qFox> cinderella was that that chick with the silver shoe?
17:28:17 <madgarden> Glass.
17:29:28 <ASau> Material of shoe varies from one story to another.
17:29:57 <Robert> I bet in the Netherlands it's a wooden shoe.
17:31:55 <qFox> lol
17:32:02 <qFox> well i mixed it up with sleeping beauty
17:32:04 <qFox> hehe
17:32:25 <qFox> someone asked me what the english name was for that story
17:32:35 <qFox> but i said cinderella
17:32:39 <qFox> ohwell all disney i guess
17:33:14 <qFox> wonder when the next remake of those stories will come :\
17:33:54 <madgarden> Cindereal-ho in da Hood.
17:37:20 --- quit: jdrake ("Newest Innovation - Lease your soul to the Devil! Recieve monthly payments. Order yours today.")
17:38:26 --- join: ayrnieu (julian@206.61.132.184) joined #forth
17:42:30 <slava> hi ayrnieu
17:42:54 <ayrnieu> hello slava.
17:43:16 <Robert> Hi
18:00:58 --- join: jdrake (~uniq1@CPE00045afdd0e8-CM014410113717.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth
18:02:36 --- quit: Nutssh ("Client exiting")
18:02:37 --- quit: madgarden (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
18:08:47 --- join: madgarden (~madgarden@Kitchener-HSE-ppp3576712.sympatico.ca) joined #forth
18:11:10 --- join: AldoBR (~Aldo@200.195.110.124) joined #forth
18:11:14 <AldoBR> hi
18:11:20 <ASau> Dobroe utro!
18:11:38 <AldoBR> ?
18:11:44 <madgarden> Greetazoa.
18:11:44 <ASau> Good morning.
18:12:00 <AldoBR> good night ;)
18:12:08 <AldoBR> 23:11 here :P
18:12:25 <ASau> It's almost morning here. :)
18:12:38 <madgarden> ASau, do you sleep at all?
18:12:53 <ASau> Later, later. :(
18:15:25 --- quit: fridge (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
18:16:55 <kc5tja> :)
18:16:59 * kc5tja is going to go and grab some food.
18:17:03 <kc5tja> be back in a bit.
18:29:08 --- quit: ayrnieu ("leaving")
18:31:09 --- join: fridge (~fridge@dsl-203-113-228-26.NSW.netspace.net.au) joined #forth
18:33:32 --- join: ayrnieu (julian@206.61.132.184) joined #forth
18:38:14 <chris-xp> hi all
18:41:41 <slava> hi
18:44:15 <chris-xp> :)
18:47:51 <AldoBR> hi
18:52:18 <chris-xp> OMFG
18:52:24 <chris-xp> those bash.org people are fucked up!
18:52:25 <chris-xp> <birdhouseskater> my one goal in life besides a girlfriend is getting in bash.org
18:52:50 <chris-xp> I've been submitting variants of that quote for months now, and now some n00b says it and it gets accepted.
18:52:58 <chris-xp> I'm boycotting bash!
18:59:13 <kc5tja> Back.  Now it's time for me to get cooking.
18:59:58 <AldoBR> my mandrake does not accept to be upgraded
19:00:10 <ayrnieu> Destroy it.
19:00:29 <AldoBR> lol
19:02:50 --- quit: cr3 ("Leaving")
19:54:49 <chris-cyg> chris-xp: excuse me while I quote that...
19:55:02 <chris-xp> yeah right, like they'd actually accept it
20:03:55 --- quit: qFox ("if at first you dont succeed, quit again")
20:10:41 <kc5tja> ??
20:10:42 <jdrake> http://bash.org/?2858
20:11:52 --- join: Nutssh (~Foo@gh-1177.gh.rice.edu) joined #forth
20:12:07 <ayrnieu> sigh.
20:12:12 <ayrnieu> bash must die.
20:13:19 <jdrake> it has some good shit on it
20:14:35 <ayrnieu> It has too much 'bad shit' on it.  No replacement for fortune(1)
20:14:43 <jdrake> true
20:15:15 <kc5tja> Definitely -- fortune is still the best.  But I see no reason for bash to be destroyed.  If you don't like them, don't read them.
20:15:16 * ayrnieu finds that his programming interfaces grow immediately more interesting when he configures them to call /usr/games/fortune at appropriate times.
20:15:31 <chris-xp> :)
20:15:32 <madgarden> Lots of contrived stuff on bash.org
20:15:45 <chris-xp> man
20:16:02 <chris-xp> I'm just gonna get gnome, slap it on cygwin, then use that only
20:16:14 <chris-xp> I'm getting superpissed at Windows
20:16:17 <chris-xp> no control
20:16:21 <ayrnieu> kc5 - they remind me too much of the ill-conceived 'computers' fortune cookie database.
20:16:28 <jdrake> chris-xp, i recommend you just get linux
20:16:30 <chris-xp> I had to download a separate app to make it a little better looking
20:16:40 <chris-xp> jdrake: I have it, but right now, I can't net with it
20:16:50 <chris-xp> jdrake: once I get that wireless ethernet bridge.. :)
20:18:40 <chris-xp> oh man, wtf
20:18:53 <chris-xp> cygnome beta-ed on gnome 2.2.1?
20:18:54 <chris-xp> wtf!?
20:30:07 <chris-xp> man
20:30:23 <chris-xp> is there any other integrated wm than KDE or Gnome?
20:31:12 <ASau> Emacs.
20:31:24 <ayrnieu> chris - WindowMaker, XFCE, flvm, and Enlightenment seem to fit that to varying degrees.
20:31:35 <ayrnieu> anyway, I've just discovered evilwm.
20:31:57 <chris-xp> evilwm? lol
20:32:05 <chris-xp> ASau: emacs is evil.
20:32:28 <chris-xp> ayrnieu: i meant more like there's more to it than just the wm and one or 2 lame utilities
20:32:31 <ASau> I don't see anything is as integrated as Emacs.
20:32:43 <ASau> Emacs integrates everything in it.
20:32:49 <chris-xp> but, i'm gonna take a look at the latter 2
20:32:53 <chris-xp> and evilwm too :)
20:32:54 <ASau> ...in itself.
20:33:36 <ayrnieu> chris - you probably don't relaly want to look at evilwm, but OK.  I switched from treewm to it a while ago -- evilwm loses to the former in a number of ways, but seems to work well enough for now.
20:35:53 <chris-xp> evilwm seems good...
20:36:10 <chris-xp> treewm looked interesting when i saw it a while ago, never tried it tho
20:37:10 <ayrnieu> treewm has horrible documentation and a confusing array of (undocumented) features, but its basic features make up for everything.
20:39:36 <chris-xp> :)
20:40:25 <chris-xp> gonna step through the freshmeat WM list, open in new tab all the ones that seem interesting, then judge those, close the ones I don't want, then see what I end up with.
20:42:40 <ayrnieu> evilwm has a fairly surprisingly tiny code base (judging by the single-line compilation step, with 5 source files) -- why don't you look into embedding a Forth in it and building your own window manager?
20:43:05 <chris-xp> lol
20:43:06 <chris-xp> naaah
20:43:53 <ayrnieu> anyway, I think that I really want sawfish.
20:46:00 <slava> any guess what this does?
20:46:02 <slava> : randomCall ( -- )
20:46:02 <slava>     associates random-element callYou ;
20:47:51 <madgarden> takes a random element from the associates list and calls it?
20:49:01 <ASau> It summons random enemy. If you recall that slava is writing a game.
20:49:07 <madgarden> That's your player's cell phone's list of contacts, correct? And you're dialing one randomly.
20:49:11 --- join: theFox (poohka@user-38lc1k6.dialup.mindspring.com) joined #forth
20:49:16 <madgarden> Yep, I remember...
20:49:41 <ayrnieu> yes, I'd guess that it has a random associate give you a phone call.
20:49:46 <ASau> madgarden, think "murphy".
20:50:07 * madgarden thinks "murphy."
20:50:40 <slava> almost
20:50:41 <ASau> I can't suggest more evil consequences.
20:50:43 <slava> a random person dials you
20:50:57 <slava> associates are people that have your phone number, contacts are people that you call
20:51:06 <slava> happends periodically.
20:51:17 <madgarden> Gotcha. Why random-element and not randomElement?
20:51:40 <ayrnieu> madgarden - because slava *can*, you heathen.
20:51:52 <madgarden> can , you heathen .
20:52:02 <slava> madgarden, laziness
20:52:07 <slava> originally everything was camelCase
20:52:09 <ayrnieu> but, er, the *can* argument doesn't hold for randomCall and callYou
20:52:13 <slava> then i changed the factor library to use-dashed-words
20:52:26 <slava> but the game still uses camel-case in its library
20:52:31 <madgarden> So, why'd you switch?
20:52:39 <madgarden> Did you start to feel too Microsofty?
20:52:45 <slava> i dunno :)
20:52:45 <ASau> SmallTalk to Lisp.
20:52:57 <slava> it was kind of badly planned
20:53:21 <madgarden> Looks like you better factor Factor. :)
20:53:57 <slava> madgarden, eventually i plan to store all source in a database and maybe have the symbol display style be configurable
20:54:03 <slava> i don't know yet
20:55:01 <kc5tja> madgarden: CamelCaps were used for a long time before Microsoft used it in Windows.
20:55:30 <madgarden> Yea, I lpcstrKnow.
20:55:36 <kc5tja> Both MacOS and AmigaOS used CamelCaps too.  :)
20:56:02 <slava> what about this:
20:56:04 <slava> : phoneTask ( -- )
20:56:04 <slava>     [ maybeRandomCall 2000 sleep ] forever ;
20:56:17 <madgarden> Now folks, let's play... Guess the Word! With your host, Slava!
20:56:27 <slava> madgraden: the 'sleep' is an interesting word. :)
20:56:37 <ayrnieu> slava - what units does '2000' have?
20:56:39 <slava> it captures the current continuation, adds it to a timer queue, and returns to the top level.
20:56:42 <kc5tja> Anyway, I'm looking at different collission avoidance technologies for ham radio packet radio.
20:56:43 <slava> ayrnieu, milliseconds
20:56:51 <slava> so its a form of co-operative threading.
20:57:20 <ayrnieu> OK, phoneTask maybeRandomCall's every 2 seconds.
20:57:25 <slava> ayrnieu, yes.
20:57:42 <slava> ayrnieu, and maybeRandomCall maybe evaluates the above : randomCall ;
20:58:17 <ayrnieu> indeed.  With as-yet-unspecificied potentiality.
21:03:03 <chris-xp> I'm down to 3 window managers --- evilwm, treewm, ude
21:03:24 <chris-xp> actually. scratch ude
21:03:33 <chris-xp> so, I'll try both of those :)
21:04:39 <ayrnieu> You didn't like sawfish?
21:06:37 <chris-xp> heh
21:06:39 <chris-xp> no
21:06:41 <chris-xp> :)
21:07:01 * ayrnieu shrugs.
21:08:03 <chris-xp> wow, evilwm compiled friggin' QUICK
21:08:06 <chris-xp> kc5tja: hey, there?
21:08:49 <chris-xp> kc5tja: I got to look at gov't code today. It took me about 3 seconds to figure out that I could take 7 of their lines of code and convert it into one
21:08:51 <chris-xp> kc5tja: :P
21:10:40 <ayrnieu> chris - you should probably read the evilwm manpage before jumping into it -- and set Xresources if appropriate for your defualt terminal.
21:12:14 <chris-xp> oh yeah, I am reading the docs for it.
21:12:19 <chris-xp> should be easy to get used to
21:12:54 * ayrnieu has just passed arguments to e.g. xterm for the last N years, so he had to read up a bit.
21:23:10 <chris-xp> i like evilwm
21:23:25 <chris-xp> the only problem is that I can't alt+tab due to windows
21:23:32 <chris-xp> but, I think I can take care of that one..
21:25:23 <chris-xp> hrm, seems like i can't delete the hok
21:25:36 <chris-xp> so i'll just recompile with ctrl instead of alt :)
21:25:44 <kc5tja> chris-xp: Government code is kept verbose in many cases for ease of peer review.
21:32:39 --- quit: AldoBR ("restart into windows")
21:32:55 <chris-xp> kc5tja: I know, but it still gave me an ego boost :)
21:35:36 <chris-xp> evilwm is great, but windows keymaps fucks it up :(
21:37:55 --- quit: theFox ()
21:39:49 <kc5tja> What the......
21:39:56 <kc5tja> Jeff Fox was here and nobody TOLD me?!?!
21:39:56 <chris-xp> kc5tja: hrm?
21:40:01 <chris-xp> kc5tja: he was...?
21:40:23 <chris-xp> poohka@user-38lc1k6.dialup.mindspring.com <-- thats him?
21:40:28 * kc5tja points up...."-!- theFox [poohka@user-38lc1k6.dialup.mindspring.com] has quit[]"
21:40:29 <chris-xp> heh, lol
21:40:38 * kc5tja notes that theFox != qFox
21:41:17 * kc5tja feels bad now -- I didn't even say hello.
21:41:57 <chris-xp> heh
21:42:02 <chris-xp> no worries
21:42:11 <chris-xp> he never seems to talk as theFox, it seems
21:42:14 <chris-xp> only as foxchip :P
21:44:54 <ianp>  oh wow, that guy wrote that... nice
21:45:03 <ianp> thats the article that turned me on to forth
21:45:53 <ianp> i see now, it makes much more sense as i read it with history in mind :)
21:46:13 <kc5tja> Hehe
21:46:35 * ianp bookmarks
21:53:50 <jdrake> kc5tja, may I ask - I was wondering on what primitive functions the forthbox of yours would be providing to forth programs in the line of graphic functions and such (just guessing on possible ones would be helpful)
21:55:30 <kc5tja> horizontal, vertical, and generic lines, solid and filled boxes, and point plotting functions, quite likely.
21:55:34 <kc5tja> Nothing super sophisticated.
21:55:48 <kc5tja> Maybe simple soft-sprite support too.
21:56:00 <jdrake> is the command environment going to be done in a graphical mode or a text mode?
21:59:55 <kc5tja> There is no such thing as text mode on the Kestrel.
22:00:15 <kc5tja> Since the CPU directly stuffs the video shift register with bytes directly from memory, it will always be in a graphical mode.
22:00:31 <jdrake> Q: Is Textmode something specifically x86 or was it actually a vga hardware thing too
22:00:53 <kc5tja> Many computer systems had a distinct text mode, from Atari and Commodore 8-bits all the way up to the PC.
22:01:30 <jdrake> and then - what are you using for long term storage
22:01:34 <kc5tja> In fact, many of the earliest computers only had text-mode displays, choosing to sacrifice electronics complexity in favor of reduced memory consumption.
22:02:00 <kc5tja> jdrake: The Kestrel will have an IDE port, with which one can connect compact flash drives or harddrives with.
22:02:10 <jdrake> nice
22:02:44 <jdrake> what was that thing somebody was mentioning about using the pic to stuff video register but in a way that could work for your application
22:03:29 <kc5tja> It wasn't directly relavent to my application.
22:03:56 <kc5tja> But someone had made a Pong game and Tetris game in a PIC chip, which produced its television display purely in software.
22:05:15 <jdrake> btw, I was curious if you know of any resources that I could use to get started playing with stuff like this, albeit on a much simpler level
22:07:20 <kc5tja> None.
22:07:42 <chris-xp> anybody familiar with xlib wanna do a 2-minute hack for me?
22:07:51 <kc5tja> I have the advantage that I learned at a young age how to do digital electronics, back when resources were rather common.
22:08:29 <kc5tja> Now-a-days, you can find but a *tiny* inkling of what used to exist at some Radio Shack stores (look for the books by Forrest M. Mims III), but that's not coming close to what i had when I was growing up.
22:08:41 <kc5tja> The days of homebrewing appear to be over, in general.
22:08:53 <chris-xp> :)
22:08:55 <chris-xp> man
22:09:06 <chris-xp> I'll just ask in #x or something :P
22:09:10 <jdrake> how long ago are we talking
22:09:11 --- join: Serg (~z@212.34.52.140) joined #forth
22:10:19 <chris-xp> jdrake: well, its basically rehacking a key in evilwm (which is TIIINY)
22:10:20 <chris-xp> :)
22:10:26 <chris-xp> two keys, rather
22:10:32 <chris-xp> alt+tab -> ctrl+tab
22:10:39 <chris-xp> ctrl+alt+delete -> ctrl+alt+q
22:10:50 <chris-xp> ctrl+alt+delete -> ctrl+alt+end , rather
22:10:51 <jdrake> i was sending the message to kc5tja :p
22:11:06 <chris-xp> ooh, lol
22:11:19 <chris-xp> heh, i didn't see that "ago" there :)
22:12:08 <kc5tja> jdrake: Back in the early to mid 80s.
22:12:28 <jdrake> ah, that is back when I was under 5
22:15:05 <chris-xp> :)
22:15:15 <chris-xp> ok, sleep
22:16:31 --- quit: chris-xp (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
22:16:50 --- quit: chris-cyg (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
22:32:55 <jdrake> is it possible to have a forth program running another forth program
22:33:06 <jdrake> in the case of ficl say
22:33:16 <kc5tja> I don't see why not...
22:33:35 <kc5tja> Performance might be impacted depending on how you pull it off though.
22:35:00 <jdrake> like this thing I am writing - this console that I will eventually put ficl into 
22:35:32 <jdrake> what if I were to write the console in forth, but then I would need a forth interpreter there too to run them. But I don't want it to be slow either.
22:40:01 <kc5tja> I don't know your exact requirements, so I can't consult on that.
22:40:11 * kc5tja needs to get to bed soon though; college in the morning.
22:42:56 --- quit: TreyB (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
22:45:36 <ASau> jdrake, if you mean Forth in Forth there's one.
22:45:54 <ASau> Forth entirely in Forth.
23:09:11 <jdrake> ASau, something that could basically launch forth programs inside itself, almost like a forth program forking itself, but staying inside 
23:09:13 <jdrake> forth
23:10:27 <ayrnieu> jdrake - perhaps you just want a nice multitasker.
23:10:45 <jdrake> that would do it :-)
23:19:28 --- quit: Nutssh (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
23:36:36 --- quit: kc5tja ("Lost terminal")
23:37:45 --- join: Nutssh (~Foo@gh-1081.gh.rice.edu) joined #forth
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/04.03.08