00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.03.07 00:00:56 actaully, IF removes the bool from the stack, not THEN 00:01:48 huh? Who said it was THEN that popped? 00:02:32 hm 00:02:58 and whats the forth equivalent of pascal/c "FOR" ? 00:03:55 DO ... LOOP 00:04:19 how it works ? 00:04:35 http://www.xmission.com/~georgeps/var/Forth_Notes-5.txt 00:04:46 ok 00:04:50 thanks 00:04:54 Those are my notes from when I was going through a Forth manual. I still have a lot to learn, but that code may help. 00:07:06 --- quit: slava (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 00:07:53 looks like a esoteric book 00:07:54 :P 00:08:15 the universe was written in forth :P 00:09:29 ' life execute 00:09:30 ;p; 00:09:32 lol 00:14:51 :P 00:28:19 --- join: fridge (~fridge@dsl-203-33-164-240.NSW.netspace.net.au) joined #forth 00:29:14 oh man 00:29:18 I am sooo good lol 00:59:45 tathi is gonna be happy when he sees this ^_^ 01:03:59 slava - oh, nothing, but sometimes I find perversity amusing. 01:17:39 --- quit: jdrake ("Oops. This machine just fell asleep") 02:36:47 --- join: Mark4 (~Mark4@66.147.207.131) joined #forth 02:40:19 --- nick: Mark4 -> I440r 02:40:33 --- mode: ChanServ set +o I440r 03:03:59 --- quit: imaginator ("sleep") 03:10:32 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 03:50:40 --- join: qFox (C00K13S@cp12172-a.roose1.nb.home.nl) joined #forth 03:51:42 --- quit: IfThenElse ("Finalizando Cliente") 04:18:02 --- join: networm (~networm@L0627P05.dipool.highway.telekom.at) joined #forth 04:35:25 --- quit: fridge ("Client exiting") 04:39:49 --- quit: networm ("Client exiting") 05:25:22 --- join: niklaus (~niklaus@210-210-75-119.lan.sify.net) joined #forth 05:25:43 i am having errors with cmove 05:26:01 i did 100 200 10 cmove and it is saying invalid memory address 05:26:28 Maybe it is. 05:26:35 What system are you using? 05:26:57 gforth 05:27:26 Robert: can you give me an example of cmove ? 05:27:31 Hmm... 05:27:43 Is it cmove ( source destination size -- ) ? 05:28:19 The thing is that in Linux, address 100 isn't where you have any data, so you're not allowed to access it. 05:28:28 You have to move data inside your program. 05:28:31 Example: 05:28:39 create block1 10 allot 05:28:45 create block2 10 allot 05:28:50 --- join: fridge (~hovil@CommSecureAustPtyLtd.sb1.optus.net.au) joined #forth 05:28:50 block1 block2 10 cmove 05:30:14 Robert: how do i view the memory address of block1 and block2 05:30:56 start address 05:31:42 block1 . 05:31:45 block2 . 06:20:03 --- join: snowrichard (~richard@adsl-068-209-159-248.sip.shv.bellsouth.net) joined #forth 06:25:35 Dobryjj vecher! 06:26:40 It seems I have need to support delays. 06:27:32 How would you call an object that counts down and runs something when it reaches zero? 06:27:36 Timer? 06:27:39 Counter? 06:35:51 sleep system call? 06:36:47 Sorry? 06:36:52 never mind 06:37:01 I've not understood. 06:37:21 is this an stand alone forth or running under an os? 06:37:33 That's for stand alone. 06:37:36 ok 06:38:22 I need it for some inertia in device control. 06:38:34 E.g. is disk spinning. 06:42:20 Hi 06:42:55 Privet! 06:47:31 Privet :) 06:51:23 hi robert 06:52:30 Hi snowrichard 06:52:35 How's your Forth? 06:52:57 someone pointed out a few minor bugs but the code they sent to fix it would not compile. 06:53:27 snowrichard, and what is your Forth? 06:53:30 I think the ROT word actually only swaps 06:53:37 Sorry, I can't recall. 06:53:40 I will look at it soon 06:53:51 http://veteransinaction.org/michael 06:55:29 now that i have a 20 Gig hard drive that actually works I can do some more work on stuff 06:55:49 Neat 06:55:49 I lost a bunch of stuff when my 40 gig went out 06:55:55 :( 06:56:04 What consumes so much space? 06:56:14 it wasn't full :) 06:56:19 Ah. 06:56:21 sound files 06:56:50 Wah! 06:56:55 I was trying to program a recording studio control panel 06:57:07 It seems I'm the only one lazy here. 06:57:23 I never wanted to write such a huge sources. 06:57:29 Especially in C. 06:57:45 ASau: Are you implying I'm not lazy? Hrm! 06:58:03 Larry wall says Hubris is a virtue :) 06:58:11 (perl book) 07:00:20 going to church in about an hour 07:01:52 Okay, enjoy. I'm having visitors here.. 07:15:49 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving") 07:26:08 ASau, you'll find I am far lazier than any of you 07:26:38 well, not true really 07:26:43 I'm good at starting things 07:26:48 really bad at finishing them 07:26:49 =( 07:32:13 fridge, start using "permanent revolution" ideology. :) 08:00:23 fridge: Actually, I'm good at finishing things but not starting them. 08:04:41 Robert + fridge = the best team ever. :) 08:05:15 Or the worst team ever, if we pick the wrong roles. 08:05:47 "Do not do it." 08:06:04 The Universal Answer of Mikhail Gassanenko. 08:06:10 Er, OK. 08:06:17 Sounds like good advice! 08:07:40 It's a variant of Occam's Razor. 08:07:53 --- join: chris-cyg (~Chris@wbar8.lax1-4-11-099-104.dsl-verizon.net) joined #forth 08:08:06 Terve! 08:08:16 :) 08:08:23 Hallo 08:08:29 I'm just switching clients, thats all :) 08:08:39 --- quit: chris-xp ("Leaving") 08:16:24 oh yay 08:16:28 I'm so good 08:16:59 It means, there's something you're not aware of. 08:17:09 (Murphy's Law.) 08:17:24 Yesterday, I took josh's (tathi) Frapiar code (which only had row widgets), and changed it into a Container type with support for both rows and columns 08:17:39 the first time it compiled (i had some spelling mistakes :P), it worked! 08:17:58 terve ASau 08:18:04 hey i was thinking 08:18:11 Expect unknown bugs there, chris-cyg. :) 08:18:26 if the basis of a forth system on dos/windows is built on assembly language 08:18:30 Zdravstvujj, mur! 08:18:42 isnt it possible to compile a binary executable from a forth program? 08:18:57 qFox, I'm working on it. 08:18:59 or was this an obvious comment 08:19:00 :p 08:19:08 It's possible, of course. 08:19:17 k, because i couldnt find much on the subject 08:19:27 nothing about forth > exe anyways 08:19:43 Search for FORTHCMP 08:20:05 You'll find Forth compiler 08:20:09 got it 08:20:12 GP-Forth. 08:20:31 SP-Forth, IIRC, also has such an option. 08:20:58 qFox: or, you can turnkey and DEFER BOOT with pygmy, which'll give you a COM file 08:21:08 no i cant... ;) 08:21:26 (thats beyond my knowledge i'm afraid) 08:22:59 Hrm. Now, I get to implement Windows 08:23:03 but tnx, thats what i meant :) 08:23:07 :) 08:23:38 i already got a struct Window down, and its huge lol 08:23:59 From my source (working example): 08:24:01 SAVE WHOLE IMAGE TO IMAGE.COM 08:24:15 Natural language processing. 08:24:17 :))) 08:24:48 lets see ... i got 8 flags, 2 SDL_Rect's, and 5 pointers ... o.O 08:41:24 LETS TALK EVERYBODY 08:42:49 chris-cyg, if you have nobody to talk to 08:42:49 talk to 08:42:49 M-x doctor 08:43:01 :) 08:43:51 BTW, I've not heard any proposition. 08:44:26 How would you call counter-down for delayed action? 08:45:11 I've got a need for an object, that counts down on pulsed signals and performs a given action. 08:45:40 How would you call this? 08:46:31 EMACS IS EVIL 08:46:33 EMACS IS EVIL 08:46:34 EMACS IS EVIL 08:46:34 EMACS IS EVIL 08:47:20 "See figure 1." 08:49:11 --- join: Herkamire (stjohns@h000094d30ba2.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 08:49:42 Dobryjj vecher, Herkamire! 08:50:01 ASau: ola amigos 08:50:31 mmmmm.... I can't spell forign languages 08:51:12 chris-cyg, Q20. Doesn't Emacs suck? 08:51:33 chris-cyg, A20. That's not the reason for not upgrading it. 08:51:50 (Translated from RU.OS.CMP FAQ.) 08:54:35 Herkamire, to continue "blocks" talk. 08:54:36 --- quit: qFox (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 08:55:03 You are to FORGET defined words when recompile. 08:55:40 chris-cyg, what editor do you use? 08:56:01 I've been trying out emacs 08:56:34 but it appears you need to learn elisp for it to be of any use 08:56:40 That's why you always do : TASK ; as first sentence of your block chains. 08:56:54 I want a non-modal editor 08:57:17 fridge, actually you need only a _slight_ knowledge what Lisp is. 08:57:25 that is threaded and can execute bg tasks and display the results in a new frame/window 08:57:40 without freezing the entire application while it is running 08:57:47 And, of course, non-modal editor is better than modal. 08:58:54 I went from vim->emacs for writing reports & emails 08:58:55 That's a hell always pressing "Esc" to assure you know what mode you're running currently. 08:58:59 but I'm not content with it 09:00:57 fridge, I don't see why you need to learn Elisp. 09:01:35 You've sources handy and you can look there any time you need. 09:02:08 well, trying to rewrite emacs to be threaded has already been discussed to death I think 09:02:15 All you need is a basic knowledge what's Lisp and how does it work. 09:02:20 --- quit: niklaus ("Client exiting") 09:02:31 yeah, that statement was a bit overzealous 09:02:40 but certain things like configuration files 09:03:33 My .emacs is 63 lines long. 09:03:52 ASau: I don't really know what you're supposed to do with blocks. I know what I do with them mostly. 09:04:26 ASau: I don't have forget in my forth. I have a key that recompiles the whole forth and runs this new copy. This does not take any noticable time 09:04:36 ASau: I think I'm just not 'getting it' 09:05:19 fridge. How long do you use Emacs? 09:06:18 Herkamire, you do plain "compile-run" cycle. That's not classic Forth way. 09:06:38 what? 09:07:24 Herkamire, when you read Forth advocacy, you'll find that one of main points is interactivity. 09:07:36 ASau: I know it's unusual to do a meta-compile on a keypress 09:07:55 right. my forth is interactive 09:07:57 ASau: a couple of months now, I've written a few macros and rebound various things using elisp 09:08:03 Herkamire, interactivity is opposed to "edit-compile-run". 09:08:43 ASau: I guess. it can be a fine line though. 09:09:16 the difference between command line editing, followed by hitting return, to entering text in the editor, and hitting a key to have it executed 09:09:31 basically nothing 09:09:44 except with the editor, your text is saved in a block 09:09:58 fridge. Really I don't see strong need to learn Elisp. 09:10:01 I wouldn't say one is more interactive than the other 09:11:08 BTW, I'm not against command lines. in my forth you can enter a word and press ENTER and it will be executed immediately without modifying the current block 09:11:57 Herkamire, I think that's because you Forth is not self-contained. 09:12:47 Herkamire, as you have fast recompile, you have no concern of interactivity. 09:13:02 ...It seems to me. 09:13:58 Fast recompile is kind of black magic, that holds you off interaction. 09:15:37 You are to work in stand alone Forth to feel it. 09:15:57 ASau: what the hell are you talking about? 09:16:09 fast compile makes it more interactive 09:16:41 Herkamire, how do you test your words? 09:17:15 by trying them or writing a word to test them 09:17:40 my forth is completely contained within an ELF file. 09:17:59 when it runs it runs within the memory that Linux loads the ELF into 09:18:16 Do you use Forth-written editor? 09:18:22 yes 09:18:27 the entire thing is written in forth 09:18:41 Ah! You're colored. 09:18:52 IIRC. 09:18:57 you press S and it recompiles it's self (kernel, editor etc) writes that to a new ELF file, and then starts executing it. 09:19:00 yes colored 09:21:15 We speak different languages. 09:21:16 You can't avoid editor. 09:21:16 I can. 09:21:35 if you don't have an editer, than you can't modify the forth interactively 09:21:48 Herkamire, I can. 09:21:57 how? 09:22:22 SAVE WHOLE IMAGE TO IMAGE.COM 09:22:44 Natural language processing. 09:23:35 Everything I feed through input stream I can write directly. 09:23:57 yes. you can add to the system, but I mean modify an existing part 09:24:18 like say changing emit to convert all letters to upercase before printing. 09:24:41 Herkamire, I've vectored my EMIT. 09:25:26 : (-LF) BEGIN [ ' KEY @ , ] DUP 10 = WHILE DROP REPEAT ; ' (-LF) CFA ' KEY ! 09:25:34 That's from my sources. 09:26:07 I need to eat LF's as my Forth accept the single CR as the end of line. 09:26:21 whatever. modify some core feature. like adding command line history or something 09:26:34 LF is a regular char. 09:26:45 ASau: that's what you get for using dos/win 09:27:52 Herkamire, if I'm not short of memory, I can intercepe words. 09:28:14 what's that? 09:28:25 Self-modifying code is not a mystery. 09:29:02 Actually I have block editor for such complex tasks. 09:29:20 hehe 09:30:24 Herkamire, does your interactive mode allow new words to be created? 09:30:25 "We like peace, but our armoured train stays on reserved railway track." 09:30:34 I should admit that I still haven't switched over to using my forth editor as my main dev platform. 09:31:46 madgarden: not as easily as I'd like. I have a plan for this, but I want to do it with graphic capabilities that I don't have on the tty 09:32:13 definitions have to be put into a block. 09:32:23 otherwise, they don't persist. 09:32:37 Herkamire, that's why you can't avoid editor. 09:32:54 ASau: I know I have to have an editor. 09:33:01 madgarden, that depends on your system persistancy. 09:33:07 ASau, does your Forth save full fource code? 09:33:13 ASau: and so do you, unless you are going to use an editor in some other system 09:33:25 source=fource 09:33:49 madgarden, I'm able to live without source. 09:34:02 madgarden, "sourceless programming" 09:34:03 madgarden: right, if you could define words without them going into a block, then the definition would disapear when you recompiled the system 09:34:26 ASau: what do you use, a hex editor? 09:34:33 OK. It's been a big puzzle for me... how to make interactively-defined words persist as source. 09:34:54 madgarden: you save user input into a block 09:34:58 madgarden, provide logging in your Forth. :) 09:34:59 Herkamire, though that would be fine for interactive testing. 09:35:12 You may not want those test words to persist as source. 09:35:50 madgarden: here's what I plan to do: the editor starts off with a scratch block. you type stuff in, it goes into the block every time you hit space. (this much I have implemented already.) 09:36:34 madgarden: everything you type comes in highlighted. if you are happy with it, then hit the execute key 09:36:44 if not, you can delete or edit 09:37:09 after execute, it will still be highlighted so you can delete. 09:37:19 if I find it useful, I'll have a key that will execute and delete 09:37:37 madgarden, you are able to delete unneeded stuff any time you want. 09:37:55 oh, also, if after executing you like it so much you want to use it, you can easily copy it (as it's selected) and paste it into some useful block. 09:37:59 madgarden, noone forbids doing this. 09:38:24 madgarden: I want them to persist for a while usually 09:38:34 I generally use my test words more than once 09:38:37 Herkamire, sounds usable, though I'd be worrying about overlooking some entered word. 09:38:39 and in more than one session 09:39:12 madgarden: this is not a solution that will stop you from making programming errors :) 09:39:32 but it will make it so you can easily fix them most of the time 09:40:01 ASau, sure, FORGET... but intermixing interactively-defined words with block-defined ones can delete the stuff you're testing. 09:40:06 ASau: what sort of "sourceles programming" do you do? what did you mean by that? do you program with a hex editor? 09:40:58 Herkamire, I've experimented with programming using persistancy. 09:41:27 I've FORGET, so I can erase words I don't need. 09:42:26 madgarden, that's why you have to forget testing words. 09:43:01 It's Forth short cycle: write a word, test, forget, rewrite. 09:46:13 So, purely discipline then. 09:46:42 ASau: what if you need to change something towards the begining? 09:47:23 In BASIC, this was simple: 09:47:23 10 09:47:23 10 if a=1 then goto 20 09:47:23 :) 09:48:06 Herkamire, if I understand you right, you don't need to change. 09:48:13 "Do not do it." 09:48:16 :) 09:48:48 Anyway, you do know how you system is done, so you're able to hack it any way you want. 09:49:50 ASau: my system is programmed with sources. I can change the sources. I would not get much done trying to alter the native PPC code by hand. 09:51:06 I don't expect I'll get everything right the first time. 09:51:12 is there a way for a linux based forth to spit out ELF compatible binaries? 09:51:15 Herkamire, I've compiling words. 09:51:27 It's important to me that I can completely transform my forth into a different system without going back to Linux/vim 09:51:41 fridge: mine does 09:51:53 which forth is yours? isforth? 09:51:55 fridge: when you press shift-S 09:52:06 fridge: herkforth. native ppc. runs under linux 09:52:10 fridge, Herkamire is _colored_. 09:52:22 * Herkamire feels colorful 09:52:39 http://herkamire.com/jason/herkforth 09:52:51 I'm colorblind 09:53:03 hopefully the hues aren't too similar 09:53:05 ;) 09:53:26 Herkamire, cool! 09:53:35 Use underlines. 09:54:03 fridge: I'm sure I could modify the hues/intensities/fonts etc so you could read it eventually, but right now I'm just using xterm for my display. 09:54:29 I wonder if it'll work under openbsd's linux emulation 09:54:34 I'll try it when I get home 09:54:57 I only use 5 colors 09:55:24 The whole Newtonian set. :) 09:55:37 fridge: I'm sure it would if it's ppc. I only use a few syscalls. (I think it's just read write, and if you save then open/close) 09:55:41 ...palette. 09:55:53 must be ppc though 09:56:16 Mr. Woofenden, do you have a screenshot of some coloured herkForth code? 09:56:29 madgarden: I will in a sec 09:57:53 Herkamire, I've noticed color based linux games such as pathological and frozenbubble have a tendency to have at least one pair of colours too similar for me to distinguish between them 09:58:04 I should submit a patch 09:58:12 "Woofenden" sounds almost like a Hobbit surname... 09:58:31 ;) 09:58:41 fridge: I use red green and yellow. and just a very little white and magenta. 09:58:56 madgarden: hehe 09:59:20 Herkamire, red/green doesn't seem like the best combo for some people... ever considered changing one of those to blue or cyan? 10:00:00 it is usually light green/yellow and blue/purple that stumps me 10:00:57 Nuts, bbl. 10:04:27 there are a few different types of colourblindness... I find the best thing is to vary brightness as well as hue 10:07:36 extra clues means the vast majority of colorblind people can at tell they're not the same 10:07:37 fridge: I would like to pick a deeper green when I go graphical 10:07:57 ok, screenshot at herkamire.com/jason/herkforth 10:08:05 thumbnail looks kinda stupid, but oh well 10:08:48 hmmm. I should show the history there. 10:09:01 above the cursor at the bottom it shows the last few lines of input, and any output they generated 10:10:21 do you use any of chucks cf ideas? 10:10:31 such as color assignment or kb layout? 10:11:25 I use a lot of chuck's ideas 10:11:28 a register 10:11:30 most of the colors 10:11:37 I use straight dvorak keyboard myself 10:11:55 it just uses tty for input, so you can use whatever 10:12:40 this may be an issue once it boots, but I'll make it accessible to QWERTYers somehow 10:13:32 yep 10:15:08 I feel the kb idea is a bit overdone, and would prove more a hinderance than a help to all but the most dedicated full-time CF'ers. It does fit in with chucks 'factor,factor,factor' mantra 10:15:39 I agree. 10:15:45 for him it makes sense. 10:16:07 other people made a querty version 10:16:52 I think making people relearn a new KB layout would be akin to making them learn a new language for the sake of efficiency. Sure, you CAN communicate meaningful messanges from a computer to a human using nothing but a single LED pumping out morse code, but it isn't very pleasant 10:16:55 I've learned so much from chuck's ideas 10:18:25 I understand not going to great lengths to support peoples habbits from crappy computer interfaces, but I think if you want people to try your software, you should make a qwerty version. 10:18:39 I don't think chuck is very concerned about many people liking it 10:18:54 he left that job for others 10:19:03 I'm not colour blind, but I don't like many colours presented. 10:19:13 right. other people will make a qwerty version, he doesn't have to worry about that. 10:19:18 someone even ported it to windoze 10:19:55 Roman Pavljuk, AFAIR. 10:20:23 We have our men everywhere. :) 10:20:49 same with the colorblind thing. chuck says he's not trying to exclude them, he's just working with concepts. the concept is visually distictive. other people can code alternative fonts and/or intensities etc. he's not going to worry about that. 10:22:08 Herkamire, it should be good to use traditional *bold* or _underline_ for definitions. 10:23:03 Underline preferred. 10:23:44 And italic for numbers. 10:27:03 it can also be displayed with symbols for those who can't see, or don't like the colors 10:27:45 it's easy enough to put in a : before red words [ before yellow words and ] before green words 10:28:15 I'm going to write a utility that converts the source to ascii source like that anyway 10:33:09 numbers use the same colors as words (yellow for execute and green for compile) 10:35:11 yeah, I could do font styles 10:35:16 or textures 10:39:17 --- join: qFox (C00K13S@cp12172-a.roose1.nb.home.nl) joined #forth 10:41:40 oh, I hate it when I get thinking about all the cool graphical interface stuff I want to do 10:42:06 I've really gotta finish up the existing editor, and get this thing to boot 10:42:29 then I can play with the graphics card 10:43:53 Zdravstvujj, qFox! 10:44:03 u ook goedendag 10:44:34 ook? is that a word in german? 10:44:47 Hm. "Goedendag" is understandible. 10:44:53 What's "ook" and "u"? 10:45:06 too, you 10:45:24 goodday to you too, basicly 10:45:46 I see german roots. 10:45:53 there are similiarities yes 10:46:15 it'll sound a bit the same to you too, i think 10:46:55 although i find the german language more.... hm, that g (ch) sound of theirs, and the z, are sounds you hear frequent in their language 10:47:00 not so much in ours 10:47:22 oh dont confuse that g for a "djee" 10:47:23 Are there any relations between "god"-"Got" and "good"-"Gute"? 10:47:30 but that throathclearing sound 10:47:46 yes that's the translation.. 10:47:53 allthough 10:48:04 we say "god" for god too 10:48:10 just a different g sound 10:48:12 :) 10:48:29 one you probably cant do unless you can already speak german 10:48:47 qFox, I mean "god" <-> "good" (Engl.) and "Got" <-> "Gute" (Deutsch)? 10:48:55 oh 10:49:01 eum, 10:49:11 good is "goed" in dutch 10:49:24 i'm not sure what you mean with got... 10:50:00 See relations "bog"(Rus.) <-> "buh" (Cestina) <-> "Bug" (Rus.) as river in Belorussija. 10:51:08 well there are alot of similarities between german and dutch 10:51:38 both derived from.... ehm, ok i dont know the proper word for this in english, but we call it "germaans" 10:51:49 a very old german language, i believe 10:51:53 german-like 10:52:14 oh and i hate german, but thats just me :p 10:52:19 "Buh uhovej" (Czeck) is for "god, save me". 10:52:33