00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.03.05
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00:57:16 <AldoBR> puta
00:57:21 <AldoBR> ops, wrong channel
00:57:22 <ayrnieu> whore.
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01:07:51 <ASau> Dobryjj den'!
02:04:26 * warpzero is away: Take your passion, and make it happen, you just come alive, you can dance right through your life.
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06:09:23 <madgarden> These look like fun: http://www.speechchips.com/shop/
06:11:30 <qFox> nice
06:12:05 <qFox> CTS256A-AL2 IC
06:12:05 <qFox> CTS256A-AL2 Code-to-Speech Processing IC   
06:12:24 <qFox> combine that with the forth kit of kc and you can talk to your forthbox :p
06:13:21 <madgarden> Well, it can talk to you.
06:13:56 <madgarden> The Speakjet seems like a nice flexible chip. Check out the sample WAV.
06:15:21 <networm> hm, speech-to-code would seem more interesting to me
06:17:26 <madgarden> I like the idea of a Forthy AI talking to me in a cool robot voice. ;)
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07:00:10 <fridge> wasn't jeff fox going to leave c.l.f for good, for ever!?
07:00:23 <arke> does he ever?
07:00:34 <arke> hasn't he promised that for like ages? lol
07:00:53 <fridge> I checked a few months ago and read a post saying it was his final post to the newsgroup.
07:01:04 <fridge> I read newsgroup today
07:01:08 <fridge> he's still there.
07:01:21 <madgarden> Don't mention his name! He'll find us!
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07:02:09 <foxchip> I already saw.
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07:02:25 <arke> o.O
07:02:28 <madgarden> :O
07:03:15 <arke> ;)
07:03:27 <arke> he must be involved with the FBI.
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07:04:04 <FBI> no, ask the CIA
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07:04:15 <CIA> ask the NSA
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07:04:39 <arke> o.O
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07:05:17 <NSA> our new Windows 2k server just crashed, so we don't really know....
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07:05:27 <arke> ...
07:10:04 <mur> ...
07:10:49 <mur> hehe
07:52:53 <fridge> hehehe
08:23:23 <slava> hi
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09:22:07 <arke> damn xchat lol
09:22:27 --- nick: arke -> chris-xp
09:26:38 <mur> xxp? :)
09:27:24 <chris-xp> :)
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10:36:20 <ASau> Dobryjj vecher!
10:36:27 --- nick: Professional_Lov -> AldoBR
10:36:32 <AldoBR> ?
10:36:40 * AldoBR press the SAP button
10:36:41 <ASau> Good evening.
10:36:50 <AldoBR> ah, good evening
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11:47:53 <jdrake> posted in #macdev: http://images.somethingawful.com/inserts/articlepics/photoshop/03-05-04-passion/denz.jpg
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12:37:42 <madgarden> what the FORTH is going on here!?!?!?
12:45:11 <slava>   \  "clone-list" see
12:45:11 <slava> : clone-list 
12:45:11 <slava>     dup [
12:45:11 <slava>         uncons [
12:45:11 <slava>             unit dup 
12:45:12 <slava>         ] dip clone-list-iter swap rplacd 
12:45:14 <slava>     ] when ;
12:45:26 <slava> new improved 'see' :)
12:45:39 <slava> i wrote a nice little pretty-printer, 140 lines of code.
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13:12:18 <madgarden> slava, care to break that down? I recognise dup and swap at least. :)
13:12:54 <AldoBR> Oo/~~~
13:31:39 <Robert> slava: How do you dynamically allocate memory for the lists?
13:48:27 <madgarden> Robert, slava's code uses the Java VM... doesn't it handle memory allocation?
13:48:58 <Robert> Oh, OK.
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13:49:33 <Robert> But if you wanted to compile something like Joy to native code, how would you do?
13:50:30 <madgarden> I imagine you'd need a C-like heap memory.
13:52:59 <madgarden> Or maybe 1000000000 ALLOT and then don't worry about it. ;)
13:53:33 <Robert> Heh.
13:53:40 <Robert> You don't happen to be an XMMS coder? ;)
13:53:55 <madgarden> Heh no... ex Windows coder. :-&
13:58:15 <Robert> That too. ;)
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14:05:09 <arke> fucking xchat
14:05:11 <arke> hold on
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15:58:00 <kc5tja> slava: You there?
16:01:29 <madgarden> kc5tja, I know you aren't digging the speech synth... but did you take a look at the SpeakJet chip? http://www.speechchips.com/shop/item.asp?itemid=12
16:01:52 <kc5tja> No.
16:01:58 <kc5tja> I haven't done any research on it at all.
16:02:08 <kc5tja> But again, remember the Kestrel is intended to be very minimal.
16:02:36 <kc5tja> I don't want to laden the design down with a lot of features that relatively few will use, as it does increase the cost of the product.
16:02:51 * kc5tja has even finished the design on paper yet, and the cost in parts I have so far is already in the $20 ballpark range.
16:02:54 <madgarden> I understand. However, you do want sound, right?
16:03:15 <kc5tja> I was going to use a PIC chip as a SID-like device, yes.
16:03:58 <Herkamire> kc5tja: how much cost do you think adding audio would add?
16:04:01 <madgarden> This chip is capable of quite a bit of non-speech synth as well.
16:04:11 <madgarden> Here's a nice little demo WAV: http://www.speechchips.com/audio/speakjetsamples.wav
16:04:27 <kc5tja> Herkamire: With the PIC, you figure about $1 for the PIC chip, and maybe $2 for the resistor/capacitor network to create the low-pass filters to remove PWM modulation noise.  So less than $5.
16:06:18 <kc5tja> That's hilarious.  The chip is basically a PIC itself.  It's got conspicuously the exact same power, reset, and clock inputs as a PIC chip.
16:06:21 <Herkamire> kc5tja: cool. that's worth it.
16:07:12 <Herkamire> kc5tja: would you be able to send sound samples? or would it just do sine waves?
16:09:18 <kc5tja> I'm reading the data sheet (which is incomplete; their block diagrams are missing)
16:09:29 <Herkamire> kc5tja: have you considered other kinds of displays besides CRT?
16:10:13 <Herkamire> kc5tja: the data sheet for the speakjet? or what you're thinking of using?
16:10:19 <kc5tja> Herkamire: All of them take CRT-like inputs anyway.
16:10:27 <kc5tja> Herkamire: Speakjet.
16:10:32 <kc5tja> So far I'm not too happy with its interface.
16:12:13 <kc5tja> OK, I would say the SpeakJet is a nice add-on, but is in no way a replacement for a SID-like device.
16:12:58 <kc5tja> Herkamire: 99% of the LCD panels you get just take digitized VGA (e.g., instead of converting the thing to analog, it takes the 6 red, 6 green, and 6 blue inputs directly as digital signals, plus the normal VSYNC and HSYNC signals.  So it's still scanned just like a CRT)
16:14:06 <kc5tja> OOF!  8kHz PWM frequency?  I was going to strive for at least 64kHz in my design.  :)
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16:18:56 <kc5tja> Hmmm, listened to the demonstration wave, and wasn't too impressed with that either.  
16:19:43 * kc5tja remembers SAM for the Commodore 64, and that distinctly had better sound than this chip.  Then again, the SID has more sophisticated synthesizers than this thing too.
16:19:57 <kc5tja> I mean, it's not BAD -- you can understand it.  I just think one can do better.
16:20:16 <Herkamire> kc5tja: that sucks, so you have to send the video signal constantly with LCDs too?
16:21:29 <Herkamire> I was hoping you'd only have to send a signal to the LCD when you wanted it to change something
16:22:05 <kc5tja> Herkamire: In 99% of the pieces out there, yes.
16:22:17 <kc5tja> The reason is that an LCD isn't a static display mechanism.
16:24:10 <Herkamire> right
16:25:13 <madgarden> kc5tja, Not so sure SAM is as clear as that. SAM is pretty good, though. 
16:25:25 <madgarden> Anyway, thought it was interesting.
16:25:48 <kc5tja> Definitely.
16:26:00 <kc5tja> But at $25, I wouldn't consider adding it into the core of the product.
16:26:03 <kc5tja> Here's the gist though.
16:26:10 * kc5tja has pretty much had it witn In-N-Out.
16:26:21 <kc5tja> I've been accused of having bad body odor there.
16:26:32 <kc5tja> And have been threatened with being written up.
16:26:34 <kc5tja> Which is bullshit.
16:26:38 <madgarden> :o
16:26:43 * kc5tja showers, shaves, aftershaves, and deoderizes every day.
16:26:50 <madgarden> WTF?
16:27:00 <kc5tja> So I'll be looking for alternative employment here pretty soon, I think.
16:27:15 <kc5tja> I'd like to develop this kit business as much as I can.
16:27:23 <kc5tja> I realize I need something to sell first.
16:27:42 <kc5tja> I'm hoping the Kestrel will provide enough financial incentive for me to continue to develop the product and offer peripherals for it.
16:27:49 <kc5tja> This speech chip could be one such peripheral.
16:28:28 <madgarden> Hmm. I wonder if a computer kit for a first product isn't a bit risky.
16:28:51 <kc5tja> I have no other core competency at this time.
16:29:03 <kc5tja> The only alternative is to resell radio kits from, say, Small Wonder Labs.
16:29:36 <madgarden> Sure you do... there's a huge hobbyist market out there for things like that SpeechJet, BASIC stamps, etc.
16:30:00 <madgarden> You could easily engineer smaller modules which target that market.
16:30:07 <madgarden> Be a good way to test the waters.
16:30:18 <kc5tja> I need advertising.
16:30:34 <kc5tja> And that's what I lack.
16:30:40 <kc5tja> I lack the knowledge needed to crack the market.
16:30:42 <madgarden> Word of mouth can do wonders.
16:30:51 <kc5tja> I have no idea where to advertise, and, I have no money TO advertise with.
16:31:02 <madgarden> There are many forums and community sites you could advertise or spread the word on for free.
16:31:32 <madgarden> It's the exact same issue with indie game developers, a group which I strive to be a part of.
16:31:40 <kc5tja> indie?
16:31:47 <madgarden> independent
16:32:00 <kc5tja> I'm not seeing the relationship.
16:32:50 <madgarden> Well, you're aiming to be an independent hardware designer.
16:32:58 <madgarden> You want to sell your products online.
16:33:12 <madgarden> You want to attract a certain demographic, market to them, and make some money.
16:33:29 <madgarden> Not much different than indie game developers.
16:33:38 <kc5tja> OK, but the methods are 100% different.
16:33:45 <kc5tja> Hence my not seeing any relationship.
16:33:48 <madgarden> The product is.
16:33:53 <kc5tja> The same could be said of IBM, much less my own stuff.
16:34:02 <madgarden> IBM isn't one guy.
16:34:19 <kc5tja> What kind of independent games are we talking about?  For the PC?  For the Atari 2600?  
16:34:47 <madgarden> PC mostly, though some are for PDAs, cell phones, or online.
16:35:00 <kc5tja> OK, see, that market is rather large and vast then.
16:35:13 <madgarden> I think you've got a potentially large hobbyist market.
16:35:36 <kc5tja> You can walk into any one of a handful of online e-game sites, and you can post a small message in an obfuscated forum somewhere in Tuva, and the next thing you know, your site has been triple-slashdotted.
16:35:38 <madgarden> It's large enough that other small companies are able to sell to and profit from it.
16:35:59 <madgarden> Heh, that doesn't mean you're selling anything.
16:36:02 <kc5tja> Yes.  The trick is to *find those fora* that the hobbiests frequent, and to deliver what they need.
16:36:16 <kc5tja> Games are easier to sell than UARTs, I think.
16:36:32 <kc5tja> Games have a very limited shelf-life, most of the time.  UARTs, once in a circuit, are likely to last forever.
16:36:43 <madgarden> Yep. Sure.
16:36:43 <kc5tja> (I use UART here as a representative of the types of things a hobbiest would likely desire)
16:37:04 <madgarden> BASIC stamp is something I think a hobbyist would be generally more interested in.
16:37:30 <madgarden> And something that an indie hardware designer could make some money on.
16:37:40 <kc5tja> OK.
16:37:42 <madgarden> Or perhaps, say, a Forth stamp.
16:37:57 <kc5tja> A Forth stamp requires a CPU, some ROM, some RAM, and lots of I/O, all one one module.
16:38:10 <madgarden> Yep.
16:38:11 <kc5tja> FPGAs lack ROM and RAM, so that means the CPU and I/O can go in an FPGA.
16:38:21 <kc5tja> The ROM and RAM exist in separate chips.
16:39:49 <kc5tja> And, well, I'm not too sure how I would be able to compete with the BASIC Stamp anyway.
16:39:54 <kc5tja> I just looked at Parallax's site.
16:40:01 <kc5tja> Their chips/modules are *tiny*.
16:40:45 <kc5tja> An FPGA chip alone is substantially larger than what they're offering.
16:40:59 <kc5tja> Not saying it wouldn't sell.  But I have to wonder what kind of form-factor it would end up as.
16:41:22 <madgarden> Do they do their own chip fab?
16:41:24 <kc5tja> All the BASIC-Stamps appear to be in DIP package form factor, which is very convenient for homebrewers to use.
16:41:29 <Herkamire> I don't like the BASIC stamp at all
16:41:49 <kc5tja> madgarden: I can't tell, but I'm can tell they do their own *module* fab.
16:42:06 <kc5tja> Herkamire: Be that as it may, the point remains: BSes are omnipresent in the market.
16:42:15 <kc5tja> It's going to be hard to market Forth when BASIC is so readily prevalent.
16:42:38 <madgarden> The BASICs on the stamps I've looked at are pretty limited.
16:42:48 <kc5tja> madgarden: That's because the ROM and RAM space is very limited.
16:42:52 <madgarden> Usually just a few predefined global variables.
16:43:13 <madgarden> Good reason to use Forth instead.
16:43:30 <kc5tja> madgarden: Do you have personal experience with these BASIC Stamp modules?
16:43:37 <kc5tja> Herkamire: Question goes out to you too.  :)
16:43:41 <Herkamire> the BASIC stamp I worked with seemed like an assembler pluss a couple controll constructs
16:44:16 <madgarden> kc5tja, nope, not really. 
16:44:26 <Herkamire> kc5tja: only a very little bit
16:45:12 <madgarden> "The BASIC Stamp 2p (BS2P24) is the highest performing of all the BASIC Stamps. With a program execution speed of ~12,000 instructions/second, it is 3 times faster than a BS2-IC and 20% faster than the BS2SX-IC."
16:45:18 <Herkamire> If I remember correctly you couldn't use a text editor to do the programming
16:46:14 <kc5tja> Herkamire: Correct.  Your BASIC program is downloaded into serial EEPROM, and the BASIC Stamp module reads the serial EEPROM to get your program.
16:46:57 <Herkamire> kc5tja: I mean to write the "BASIC" code
16:47:04 <kc5tja> Herkamire: I know.
16:47:10 <Herkamire> you have to use the stupid software they give you to type in
16:47:21 <kc5tja> You have to code it on the computer first, then when you're finished with it, you 'flash' it to a serial EEPROM.
16:47:45 <Herkamire> right, and the computer has to be windoze, and you have to write it in their stupid software
16:48:16 <kc5tja> Well, here's the deal.
16:48:38 <kc5tja> In order for me to persue something like this, I'm going to be needing a PCB fab run done.
16:48:48 <kc5tja> Getting that set up is going to cost some serious cash.
16:48:56 <kc5tja> Tooling up for a fab run is never a pleasant thing.
16:49:07 <kc5tja> (Fortunately, tooling is usually a one-time cost.)
16:49:32 <kc5tja> I would need to guage market interest in a Forth Stamp product.
16:49:57 <kc5tja> And I don't know how to do that.
16:51:11 <madgarden> Pose the question in some forums, IRC channels, and on the wiki, like you do here. 
16:51:18 <kc5tja> What do I do, release a press release in some magazines, and say something like, "Falvo Technical Solutions has recently announced plans to develop a new Forth language based product to compete with the BASIC Stamp 2p.  Designed to execute 12 *million* instructions per second, instead of 12,000, while not costing much more, the Forth Stamp will offer substantial opportunities for embedding more sophisticated logic in inexpensive designs." type of pre
16:51:26 <kc5tja> And just *hope* taht people will express interest and write to me?
16:51:31 <kc5tja> I'm reall confused about how to go about doing this.
16:51:45 <madgarden> Hey, that's a pretty cool sounding press release. ;)
16:52:29 <kc5tja> Thanks.  But last I checked, press releases were about products that were actually *released*, not preliminary vaporware products.
16:52:32 <madgarden> If I were you I'd infiltrate the hobbyist communities and poke around, see what kind of feedback you get. 
16:52:33 <kc5tja> Hence my reservation.
16:53:00 <madgarden> That's why people normally do market research before releasing a product.
16:53:03 <kc5tja> The only hobbyist community I've been a regular member of is the 6502 group.
16:53:29 <madgarden> Well if you want to market your products, you'll have to branch out and actually do the marketing.
16:53:33 <kc5tja> I've had some interest in the ForthBox Kestrel there.
16:53:46 <kc5tja> Or find someone to do it *for* me.
16:53:50 <kc5tja> That's what I've been trying to say.
16:53:52 <kc5tja> I'm not a marketer.
16:53:59 <madgarden> OK, that's fine.
16:54:01 <kc5tja> I'm a producer.  A technician.  An engineer.
16:54:10 <madgarden> You might want to take a look here: http://www.dexterity.com/articles/
16:54:11 <Herkamire> kc5tja: I like what I understand of your Kestrel project. make a kit out of standard parts other people manufacture, and ship it with code (and/or pre-flashed ROMS) and lots of instructions
16:54:12 <kc5tja> I'm not a marketer.  I can't market my stuff very well.
16:54:40 <madgarden> It's indie games related, but I think the advice there is really universal to indies in general.
16:56:03 * Herkamire is away partying
16:57:18 * madgarden is sitting here in pain. Yay back.
16:58:31 <kc5tja> Heh
16:58:37 <madgarden> kc5tja, and I agree with you... I don't like marketing much either, rather just focus on the concepts. But there's potentially some decent bucks to be made if you can pull it all together.
16:58:47 <kc5tja> Sure there is.
16:58:52 <kc5tja> I would love to just do hardware development for life.
16:59:14 <kc5tja> But I've ran many businesses in the past.  None were ultimately successful.
16:59:14 <madgarden> Doing it from home would be even better.
16:59:25 <madgarden> Nobody would complain about the smell, either. ;P
16:59:26 <kc5tja> Two weren't even my fault, but the point is, I had the infrastructure already in place when I arrived.
16:59:37 <kc5tja> This is starting totally from scratch, with me having less than $1000 in the bank.
17:01:14 <madgarden> Livin' on the edge, baby! I envy you bachelor types. ;)
17:01:24 <kc5tja> The edge is pretty sharp.
17:01:33 <kc5tja> $500 for rent, $500 for auto insurance.
17:01:38 <madgarden> Well my bank account isn't much better. And it's in Canadian dollars to boot.
17:01:39 <kc5tja> Buh-bye money.
17:01:56 <madgarden> $500 a month for car insurance?
17:02:48 <kc5tja> No.
17:02:50 <kc5tja> Every 6 months.
17:03:00 <kc5tja> But it just so happens that my payment is due this month.
17:03:42 <madgarden> Ahh. Well, next month will be a good starting point for your new business. :) See how far you can get in 6 months...
17:06:03 <kc5tja> My current business regressed.
17:06:38 <kc5tja> (although I do have a paying customer now, that was entirely a fluke, I think.  He definitely didn't know I existed until a friend of a friend mentioned it to him.  Now if I can get that to happen MORE OFTEN...)
17:06:59 <madgarden> Do you advertise your site?
17:10:31 <kc5tja> I tried in the past.
17:10:33 <kc5tja> I broke myself doing it.
17:10:52 <kc5tja> It took two months to recover from the financial damage.
17:15:07 <kc5tja> I've never tried since, except to pass it on via word-of-mouth whenever I could.
17:16:24 --- join: Sonarman (~matt@adsl-67-113-234-172.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth
17:21:50 <madgarden> Those dexterity articles are short and sweet.
17:22:27 <kc5tja> Yeah.
17:22:34 <kc5tja> They basically say the same thing as "Think and Grow Rich" though.
17:22:48 <kc5tja> And if that's any indication, I'm doing next to *everything* wrong in the book.
17:23:11 <kc5tja> And if past history is any indication, I won't be able to change anything.
17:23:12 <kc5tja> :(
17:23:22 <kc5tja> So it seems I'm pretty much doomed to poverty.
17:23:26 * kc5tja sighs
17:24:00 <kc5tja> That's why I need someone else to help me out if I'm going to do this.
17:28:37 <qFox> hm
17:28:44 <qFox> can somebody help me on some english
17:28:47 <qFox> concerning a resume
17:28:57 <qFox> i have a chance on getting an internship at MS in seatle :p
17:29:18 <qFox> but i have to translate my resume to english, not something i do every day
17:29:47 <qFox> how do you properly name hte schools, namely the cities they are in?
17:30:06 <qFox> like school x in y, in dutch we dont use in as such, but i'm not sure on english
17:30:26 <kc5tja> I don't even know what 'x' and 'y' are supposed to represent.
17:30:27 <qFox> at doesnt sound/look right either
17:30:28 <qFox> well
17:30:54 <qFox> say i went to um, president lincoln college, and the college was in amsterdam
17:31:08 <kc5tja> When did you 'go' to this school?
17:31:19 <kc5tja> And what was your major?  Did you earn a degree there?
17:31:26 <qFox> oh no, i'm only 22 :p
17:31:38 <kc5tja> Well, play along and be nice, or you won't get your treat.  :)
17:31:46 <qFox> or wait, you mean diploma
17:31:47 <kc5tja> Fake up some answers.
17:32:06 <madgarden> Lincoln College, Amsterdam
17:32:13 <qFox> well i'm not really eager to put things on my resume, only for them to discover i lied and cant do thigns they expect of me... 
17:32:17 <qFox> oh komma
17:32:19 <qFox> right
17:32:29 <kc5tja> OK, here's an example from my resume.
17:32:39 <kc5tja> T. R. Proctor High School, Utica, NY  13503
17:32:52 <qFox> whats the number
17:32:56 <qFox> oh 
17:32:59 <qFox> zip?
17:33:05 <kc5tja> 1989-1995
17:33:15 <kc5tja> No.
17:33:21 <kc5tja> Yeah, the # is the zipcode.
17:33:25 <qFox> k :)
17:33:28 <kc5tja> Basically, the name of the school is its mailing address.
17:33:39 <kc5tja> T. R. Proctor High School, Utica, NY  13503
17:33:43 <kc5tja> 1989-1992
17:34:04 <qFox> yea ok they'll have to live with the name and location i guess. somehow i dont think they'll actually follow up on it anyhow
17:34:09 <kc5tja> Received high school diploma.  Attended extra cirricular activities related to computer science and other maths related fields.
17:34:13 <kc5tja> Etc.  Blah blah blah.
17:34:23 <Sonarman> you spent 6 years in high school?
17:34:28 <qFox> i found a bug in msn (rather serious one), and one of the dev's is trying this for me :p
17:34:36 <kc5tja> Sonarman: Our highschools are 6 years long.
17:34:48 <Sonarman> in new york?
17:34:51 <kc5tja> You have elementary schools, kindergarden through 6th grade, then you have High school, 7th grade to 12th.
17:35:07 <Sonarman> oh, ok
17:35:18 <qFox> thats all elementary for us
17:35:21 <qFox> although no wait
17:35:26 <qFox> how old are you in 12th grade?
17:35:32 <qFox> 16ish?
17:35:34 <kc5tja> While *I* went to school, I had to stay an extra year because of the whole (retarded!) consolidation program that was going on.
17:36:16 <kc5tja> 17 when I graduated.
17:37:06 <qFox> ah ok. i guess highschool are about equal. although we have different level's of highschool... low medium high and .. higher :)
17:37:26 <kc5tja> depends on where you go.
17:37:27 <qFox> the low and medium are 4 years, high is 5, and higher is 6 years. 
17:37:49 <kc5tja> Technically, 7th through 9th is called "Jr. High School," but it's still high school, really.
17:38:04 <qFox> (for the record, i went to the medium... not that i belonged there but i thank our great system for that :\)
17:38:19 <qFox> yea i picked something like that up thru tv
17:38:23 <kc5tja> You still get beat up just as often, you still get made fun of for not being a moronic jock in gym class, and you still get pushed around and dumped by all the females.
17:38:26 <kc5tja> At least I was.
17:38:58 <qFox> hmn it wasnt so bad for me, but i had other problems to deal with
17:39:11 <qFox> personal related i mean, not to school
17:39:16 <qFox> ok doesnt matter, nm
17:39:35 <qFox> our school system is revised every 4 years or so, i was lucky enough to catch two of these revisions :p
17:42:44 <qFox> man if i get this internship
17:42:50 <qFox> free trip to the states
17:42:53 <qFox> :D
17:48:37 <kc5tja> Heheh
17:48:39 <kc5tja> Good luck.
17:48:50 <kc5tja> Then you won't have to rely on your aunt to pay for that ForthBox.  >:)
17:49:55 <qFox> haha indeed
17:50:21 <qFox> seattle is closer to you then... missouri? (i remembered!!)
17:51:08 <qFox> funny enough i watched sleepless in seattle this evening on tv, so i know where about seattle is :p
17:51:20 <qFox> and missouri is middle of usa if i'm not mistaken?
17:51:32 <kc5tja> Don't ask me.  I have no clue.
17:51:39 <kc5tja> Geography is NOT a strong point for me.
17:51:40 <qFox> you are american!
17:51:46 <qFox> heh mine neither :p
17:51:47 <kc5tja> And your point is?
17:51:59 <kc5tja> I'm an American, but that doesn't mean I speak good English either.  :)
17:52:05 <qFox> good point
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18:26:26 <jdrake> does forth words invoke a call or a jump
18:26:34 <jdrake> s/does/do/1
18:27:14 <ayrnieu> jdrake - yes, except when they don't.
18:27:48 <ayrnieu> jdrake - do you have a particular implementation in mind?
18:28:03 <jdrake> what I specifically mean to say-> if I RECURSE will it be doing its stack filling
18:28:39 <chris-xp> rush - vital signs
18:28:40 <chris-xp> KICKASS
18:29:13 <jdrake> ayrnieu, ficl is what I am using
18:29:26 <ayrnieu> jdrake - I can't answer your question without more information -- except that no possible implementation can compile a tail-call without more information.
18:29:37 <ayrnieu> err, compile RECURSE as a tail-call.
18:29:53 <madgarden> chris-xp: :) All Rush shoutcast stream: http://205.188.234.65:8012 
18:30:11 <chris-xp> sweet!
18:30:17 <ayrnieu> jdrake - I don't know anything about ficl.  Ask it if it optimizes RECURSE EXIT , or if it has a specific tail-call word.
18:30:47 <jdrake> ayrnieu, i do not know how to ask it that
18:31:08 <madgarden> You can test it.
18:31:13 <madgarden> : test recurse ;
18:31:19 <madgarden> Does the stack overflow?
18:32:51 <chris-xp> or, a safer test:
18:32:56 <chris-xp> ack, nevermind
18:33:09 <madgarden> It's FICL, it's not going to crash the system.
18:33:16 <jdrake> $ ulimit 1024 
18:33:16 <jdrake> ok> : test recurse ;
18:33:17 <jdrake> ok> test
18:33:17 <jdrake> Segmentation fault
18:33:17 <madgarden> And yes, it causes a FICL exception.
18:34:33 <chris-xp> hahaha
18:34:34 <chris-xp> lol
18:34:54 <ayrnieu> chris - what amuses you?
18:35:33 <chris-xp> <madgarden> It's FICL, it's not going to crash the system.
18:35:33 <chris-xp> <jdrake> $ ulimit 1024 
18:35:33 <chris-xp> <jdrake> ok> : test recurse ;
18:35:33 <chris-xp> <jdrake> ok> test
18:35:33 <chris-xp> <jdrake> Segmentation fault
18:35:36 <chris-xp> lol
18:35:56 <chris-xp> madgarden: nice for the rush shoutcast, thanks!
18:35:59 <ayrnieu> chris - OK.  Why does that amuse you?
18:36:13 <chris-xp> ayrnieu: he says its not gonna crash, and then it comes with a segfault
18:36:13 <chris-xp> :)
18:36:44 <ayrnieu> chris - I see.
18:36:54 <chris-xp> :)
18:38:33 <madgarden> chris-xp: I meant the whole system, not the FICL system. :)
18:38:37 <madgarden> And you're welcome!
18:38:59 <chris-xp> ^__^
18:39:00 <chris-xp> wow
18:39:07 <chris-xp> we #forth people have alot in common
18:39:20 <chris-xp> we're liberal forth advocates who like rush :)
18:39:25 <madgarden> Like what... Forth and Rush?
18:39:30 <chris-xp> :)
18:39:32 <madgarden> Heh.
18:39:45 <madgarden> Hmm... maybe we need a rushForth.
18:40:48 <chris-xp> heh
18:41:02 <chris-xp> ok> spirit-of-the-radio play
18:41:06 <chris-xp> :P
18:41:48 <madgarden> rocinante cygnusx1 !
18:42:26 <ayrnieu> I'd prefer "play spirit of radio ok"
18:42:56 <madgarden> play" spirit of radio"
18:43:27 <chris-xp> s" spirit of the radio" songopt-live play
18:43:57 <chris-xp> s" red hot chili peppers" play ERROR!!#!#!@@! FORTH HATER !!@#!#!@ ok
18:44:01 <jdrake> does this sound like an ok implementation of a console - having an array of characters that represents the console, then have things draw from that. Everything being drawn based on the representation, and everything interacting the the representation
18:44:03 <madgarden> Farewell to Forths
18:44:30 <kc5tja> Tower of Moore
18:44:48 <madgarden> jdrake, character-based drawing?
18:44:53 <chris-xp> Big Definitions
18:45:02 <jdrake> madgarden, yes
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18:45:13 <chris-xp> jdrake: thats how its done :)
18:45:14 <chris-xp> afaik
18:45:17 <jdrake> err...
18:45:26 <madgarden> jdrake, well you're using Allegro aren't you?
18:45:30 <jdrake> it is graphics (using allegro)
18:45:30 <chris-xp> Spirit of the DOES>
18:45:31 <jdrake> yes
18:45:40 <Sonarman> 18:39 < chris-xp> we're liberal forth advocates who like rush :)
18:45:40 <Sonarman> 18:39 < madgarden> Like what... Forth and Rush?
18:45:41 <madgarden> So... you want a text console overlay?
18:45:48 <Sonarman> but not Rush Limbaugh!
18:45:49 <chris-xp> jdrake: oh, so like a framebuffer, right?
18:45:50 <chris-xp> Sonarman: :)
18:45:58 <jdrake> framebuffer is write
18:45:58 <chris-xp> Sonarman: Will you marry me?
18:46:02 <jdrake> allegro treats it as a bitmap
18:46:05 <jdrake> madgarden, no
18:46:10 <jdrake> i am just making a console
18:46:19 <jdrake> no overlay
18:46:21 <madgarden> define console
18:46:37 <jdrake> i am basically trying to do something like GW-Basic with forth 
18:46:40 <kc5tja> chris-xp: Big Definitions go 'ROUND THE BLOCK!  Big Definitions Overflowww!  Big Definitions give you goosebumps, Big Definitions make your code grow!  Big Definitions make me scream!  Big Definitions hurt my eyes!  Big Definitions have a mean streak!  Big Definitions HAVE NO SOOOOUUUULLLL!!!
18:46:56 <chris-xp> kc5tja: HAHAHA!
18:46:58 <chris-xp> kc5tja: :P
18:47:35 <blockhead> 3 big defintions go 'round the outside, 'round the outside, 'round the outside  :D
18:48:02 <kc5tja> chris-xp: That was much needed stress relief actually.  
18:48:06 * kc5tja needs to listen to Big Money now.
18:48:43 <madgarden> jdrake, not familiar with gwbasic. :) Got a screenshot?
18:48:46 <chris-xp> :P
18:48:53 <chris-xp> madgarden: you don't know gwbasic? :P
18:49:04 <chris-xp> madgarden: its basically c64 basic, but for DOS
18:49:07 <jdrake> madgarden, i am afraid not, i ran it like 10 years ago
18:49:31 <madgarden> Never mind, found a screenshot. And no. I wasn't a DOS user, really. C64/Amiga back in those days.
18:49:47 <jdrake> never used an amiga
18:49:58 <madgarden> So now we're even, punk!!
18:49:59 <kc5tja> gwbasic is *nothing* *like* C64 Basic.
18:49:59 <madgarden> ;)
18:50:03 <kc5tja> Where *ever* did you get that idea from?  :)
18:50:10 <madgarden> Who got what idea?
18:50:19 <madgarden> Oh.
18:50:25 <madgarden> Heh. Well I wouldn't know.
18:50:33 * kc5tja whaps chris-xp with a Commodore 64 Programmers Reference Guide.  >:)
18:50:44 <madgarden> DOS and CGA graphics annoyed me to no end back in those days.
18:50:55 <kc5tja> BASIC 7.0 comes closes to GWBASIC, but it's still a far, far, far cry.
18:50:58 <madgarden> ANyway, so you're trying to create a GWBASIC-like editor?
18:51:04 <chris-xp> ok, sorry sorry sorry
18:51:05 <chris-xp> :P
18:51:06 <kc5tja> C64 didn't even have graphics commands.  You had to POKE your own graphics into the screen bitmap.
18:51:10 <kc5tja> chris-xp: Heheh :D
18:51:11 <chris-xp> GWBasic editing was horrible.
18:51:24 <chris-xp> kc5tja: heh, fun stuf
18:51:27 <jdrake> madgarden, not quite
18:51:36 <jdrake> think normal forth environment at a regular terminal
18:51:44 <jdrake> but then in graphics mode that can run directly right there
18:51:45 <chris-xp> kc5tja: for Qbasic, i w
18:51:49 <jdrake> no separate window
18:51:53 <madgarden> So, like Logo.
18:52:02 <jdrake> never used logo
18:52:03 <chris-xp> kc5tja: for Qbasic, i would _always_ rewrite certain graphics routines to make them faster
18:52:07 <chris-xp> kc5tja: using poke :)
18:52:19 <madgarden> You'd draw the Forth output on a seperate bitmap and paste it over your graphics window.
18:52:33 <jdrake> madgarden, not sure yet if I would do that
18:52:37 <chris-xp> madgarden: SPIRIT OF THE RADIO YAAAAY!
18:52:42 <madgarden> Anyway, that doesn't matter I guess.
18:52:51 <madgarden> You just wnat to know how to handle the output from FICL?
18:52:51 <jdrake> there were basically two ways - QBAsic's and GWBAsic
18:53:01 <jdrake> oh that is easy
18:53:09 <jdrake> ficl executable is simple
18:53:17 <jdrake> i can probably fix it up nice
18:53:18 <madgarden> jdrake, well I don't know WTF you're wanting to do then. ;)
18:53:28 <jdrake> nevermind :p
18:53:36 <jdrake> i will get something going and maybe show you closer to time
18:53:48 <madgarden> Spirit of Radio is inspired by the Toronto radio station, 102.1 The Edge.
18:54:02 <chris-xp> :)
18:54:07 <madgarden> I made a Forthy console for one of my (unfinished) games.
18:54:43 <jdrake> you guys don't happen to know the two reverse functions for row() and column() for this do you? return row() * rows() + column();     I can never remember them
18:54:52 <jdrake> mine won't by forthy - it will be forth
18:55:19 <madgarden> Yea I know.
18:56:07 <jdrake> my font is like a final fantasy font
18:56:11 <jdrake> looks quite nice
18:56:24 <madgarden> http://www3.sympatico.ca/ppridham/misc/images/console2.png
18:56:43 <Sonarman> madgarden: cool :)
18:56:55 <jdrake> yes that is nice
18:56:58 <madgarden> Yea, I gotta finish that sucker.
18:57:03 <madgarden> Plus about 5 other games.
18:57:44 <madgarden> Ahh, Camera Eye.
19:00:50 <chris-xp> somebody name a very exotic, console, editor
19:01:16 <blockhead> VSCE
19:01:21 <blockhead> :)
19:01:28 <chris-xp> ?
19:01:38 <chris-xp> OH
19:01:39 <chris-xp> haha
19:01:42 * blockhead waits for it
19:01:47 <blockhead> there  :)
19:02:01 <ianp> VSCE?
19:02:23 <blockhead> hint: acronym
19:02:29 <ianp> Vsual Studio... ?
19:02:30 <blockhead> hint 2: scroll up just a hair
19:02:44 <ianp> Oh well, i guveup :)
19:02:47 <ianp> give
19:02:59 <blockhead> sigh.  it kills a joke to explain it  :(
19:03:26 <blockhead> Very Exotic Console Editor
19:03:34 <ianp> Haha.. sorry
19:03:46 <blockhead> on that note.  I'm haeding out.  'nn all
19:03:49 <ianp> night b
19:04:02 --- quit: blockhead ("Client Exiting")
19:04:34 <chris-xp> i wanna try plan9.
19:04:39 <chris-xp> anybody else tried it?
19:04:51 <ianp> newp...
19:04:54 <ianp> curious though
19:06:33 <chris-xp> yeah.
19:06:37 <chris-xp> seems decent, actually.
19:10:03 <ianp> Dunno.. isnt it old, etc ?
19:10:35 <chris-xp> aren't they working on it right now..? :P
19:10:50 <chris-xp> Plan 9 From Bell Labs
19:10:50 <chris-xp> Fourth Release Notes
19:10:50 <chris-xp> April, 2002
19:10:50 <chris-xp> updated June, 2003
19:16:01 <ianp> ah, i didnt know
19:16:06 <ianp> i never hearanything about it
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19:33:49 <jdrake> could somebody look at my planned function set for this console that I am now planning more so. I want to see if I might be missing something that I am not seeing right now: http://rafb.net/paste/results/H1621357.html
19:46:29 <jdrake> what really sucks is that I am actually used to gwbasic's locate statement that was locate row, col which is completely backwards from graphics mode and anything I use now
19:46:31 <jdrake> mind bender
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19:53:41 <Sonarman> backwards because row, col is y, x; while you plan to do x, y?
19:54:41 <jdrake> right
19:55:01 <jdrake> if I never used gwbasic this wouldn't be any mental problem
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20:34:59 <kc5tja> Awesome.  The design of the ForthBox Kestrel's asynchronous bus logic has been documented and is online for the benefit of the folks at 6502.org.
21:37:54 <chris-xp> :)
21:38:16 <chris-xp> FUCK
21:38:20 <chris-xp> i missed tathi again :(
21:38:21 <chris-xp> Herkamire: there?
21:38:39 <chris-xp> Herkamire: I can't remember tathi's email address, could you /msg it to me?
21:54:54 <ayrnieu> http://www.stacken.kth.se/~foo/rpn/ -- I just emailed the author about my Erlang solution.  Not sure if I want to take on a Forth solution, just yet -- but I welcome someone else to work on that.  You can put it on my wiki, if you can't send it to the author directly (I have had many problems with mailing code).
22:01:27 <chris-xp> heh
22:01:31 <chris-xp> i could do forth :P
22:01:47 <chris-xp> however, theres BASIC on the wishlist
22:01:50 <chris-xp> so i might do that
22:05:20 <chris-xp> oh man
22:05:31 <chris-xp> that girl i saw at the hibachi place ....
22:06:09 <slava> hi
22:06:33 <chris-xp> why is it so god damn hard to get laid in this country :(
22:06:39 <slava> lol
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22:11:23 <slava> hi theFox
22:11:59 <theFox> hi
22:13:43 <chris-xp> :)
22:14:34 <theFox> quiet here.
22:16:32 <slava> chris-xp, i like my new 'see' implementation
22:16:52 <chris-xp> hows it work?
22:17:31 <slava> 'decompiles' parsed source, and formats it in a consistent manner
22:18:18 <chris-xp> cool
22:18:43 <slava> can i paste a bit? :)
22:19:16 <slava> : httpd-directory>html 
22:19:16 <slava>     directory [
22:19:16 <slava>         httpd-file>html 
22:19:16 <slava>     ] map cat ;
22:19:29 <slava> it pretty-prints like this...
22:20:01 <ayrnieu> slava - so, working on Factor-on-Kaffe this weekend? =)
22:20:10 <slava> ayrnieu, maybe right now :)
22:20:20 <slava> ayrnieu, u wanna try it and tell me what breaks? :)
22:20:33 <slava> see if it boots and see if the unit tests run.
22:20:58 <ayrnieu> I'd like to, but hrm, I need to figure out why Kaffe doesn't want to work.
22:21:07 <slava> got gcj?
22:23:43 --- quit: Herkamire ("leaving")
22:25:04 <ayrnieu> Not right now, on OpenBSD.
22:26:10 <slava> try to get kaffe working first :)
22:27:46 * ayrnieu proceeds.
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/04.03.05