00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.02.28 00:05:31 OK, I'm off to bed. 00:22:50 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK") 02:34:09 * warpzero is away: There were plants and birds and rocks and things. There was sand and hills and rings. 03:19:29 --- join: networm_ (~networm@L0657P27.dipool.highway.telekom.at) joined #forth 03:41:15 --- quit: networm (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 04:03:11 --- join: qFox (~C00K13S@cp12172-a.roose1.nb.home.nl) joined #forth 04:03:39 --- quit: qFox (Client Quit) 04:05:41 --- join: qFox (C00K13S@cp12172-a.roose1.nb.home.nl) joined #forth 05:53:34 Good morning! 05:58:25 Dobryjj vecher! 06:34:58 hi 06:40:19 Privet! 06:41:26 saljut alekseij 06:49:30 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@216.27.161.121) joined #forth 06:51:03 Dobryjj vecher, proteusguy! 06:51:30 --- quit: MrReach () 06:51:52 Oh, MrReach was here. 06:57:55 MrUnreachable now 07:00:54 --- join: wossname (wossname@HSE-QuebecCity-ppp80724.qc.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 07:22:24 Dobryjj vecher, wossname! 07:23:17 ~ 07:24:31 ! 07:24:40 @ 07:24:44 . 07:24:48 ; 07:24:58 : ; . 07:25:12 Û 07:26:01 07:28:23 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@66-91-231-74.san.rr.com) joined #forth 07:28:30 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja 07:28:33 Privet, kc5tja! 07:28:42 Hello. 07:30:21 Hi 08:31:41 --- join: Herkamire (stjohns@c-24-62-114-30.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 09:03:16 Dobryjj vecher, Herkamire! 09:06:43 ASau: good noon :) 09:19:31 --- quit: wossname ("hack the planet") 10:37:31 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK") 11:04:17 --- join: blockhead (default@dialin-664-tnt.nyc.bestweb.net) joined #forth 11:04:20 --- quit: networm_ (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 11:13:10 --- join: networm_ (~networm@L0657P25.dipool.highway.telekom.at) joined #forth 11:14:08 --- join: Speuler (~Speuler@213.133.108.8) joined #forth 11:14:15 'morning 11:14:36 morning 11:14:57 anyone with internet exploder at hand around, to look whether the favicon of forthfreak.net shows up ? 11:15:03 * Speuler not have IE 11:16:30 what url? 11:16:38 forthfreak.net 11:16:55 oh 11:17:14 hey hey 11:17:32 yo slava, how goes factor? 11:17:52 * blockhead run IE and waits 11:19:39 * blockhead doesn't see much on that page :/ What's a favicon supposed to look like? 11:19:49 on the url line 11:19:54 blockhead, i did a major factoring (no pun intended) of the compiler last night. 11:19:56 left, small image 11:20:07 hopefully today i'll finally be able to implement compilation of higher-order words 11:20:35 Speuler, glider. 11:20:52 ASau: xactly. thats with IE ? 11:21:08 Speuler: IE does not like this page. it's all weird. There is like four lines of text, then about a page or so of nothing, and then a ****load of links all in one messy black after that 11:21:19 block, not black 11:21:31 Speuler, IE 5.00 11:21:42 it looks the same in mozilla 11:21:49 yes, right. should remove the links below. only the four lines are relevant :) 11:21:57 i better do that right now.. 11:22:26 done 11:23:09 thanks asau that's all i wanted to know 11:24:29 Speuler, why not make root page to be wiki's? 11:24:54 ASau: wiki is cgi. root page has forth webring link 11:25:09 would have to add that to the script 11:25:38 no intention to break the ring 11:25:58 Why not place them in main Wiki page? 11:26:27 right. that would do 11:27:33 good thinking :) 11:28:06 Hi 11:28:18 * Robert is a goodthinker. 11:28:29 good but slow :) 11:30:41 Slow? What do you mean? 11:32:14 you probably had the same idea as asau. only, you said "hi" when he came up with a feasable alternative :) 11:32:28 Speuler, trying to trick you :) 11:32:34 I say hi when I see someone. 11:32:46 you'll like libya 11:32:47 Without reading/thinking/doing other things. 11:34:00 have been told, everyone says "hi" (or the equivalent) when out in the street, to everybody, known or not. 11:34:09 * Speuler tries to imagine a crowded street in libya 11:37:40 That's a common habit in country. 11:38:23 goes for latin/south america as well i think 11:38:26 When I go down village street I am saying "hello" too. 11:38:37 To everyone I meet. 11:38:42 ok. village may be different 11:39:13 how big's your village ? 11:39:58 For today my "village" is 14 mln. 11:40:04 * Speuler is in a village too now, about 5000 people, and greeting strangers is done commonly too here 11:40:14 I meant every Russian village. 11:40:44 but the streets never get really crowded here 11:41:15 Old people do that here. That's why people think everyone over 60 is insane. 11:41:25 Diff is very useful feature of Wiki. 11:41:47 indeed, i'm missing it too 11:41:49 ASau, where do you live now? 11:41:49 I look at the page and can't work out what's been changed. 11:41:57 Moscow. 11:42:02 ah 11:42:05 ASau: flush your cache 11:42:06 how is it? 11:43:38 Slava. "It had been raining since morning... There's no stability in the world." 11:43:45 What do you mean? 12:02:30 ASau: in some climates, the rain does not happen that often, and when it does it can cause flash flood and massive sudden erosion. maybe that's what he means by the "no stability"? Just a wild half-assed thought 12:04:00 maybe i'm into a change of menu today ... http://www.eatbug.com/ 12:05:24 roasting ants is the forth way to cook :) 12:05:29 blockhead, this is from well-known Soviet movie. 12:07:33 There are well-known Soviet movies? Not in the west, surely 12:08:41 That's your troubles. 12:08:48 i know just one 12:09:10 possibly more but only one i'm sure about is russian 12:09:58 Hm. Which one? 12:10:19 about the potemkin warship 12:10:28 quite an old one 12:10:37 pre-ww2 12:11:19 Bronenosec "Potjomkin" is the first Soviet movie by Sergejj Eisenstein. 12:11:20 this one: http://www.deutsches-filminstitut.de/dt2nb45.htm 12:11:39 yes, that's the one 12:14:55 --- quit: networm_ ("Client exiting") 12:20:28 Speuler, I meant this: http://mediateka.km.ru/cinema_2001/Encyclop.asp?Topic=topic_segida_f4210 12:21:05 says in russian "need internet explorer 5.0" 12:21:31 Hmmmm. 12:21:45 ok, i can click it away, and the page shows nevertheless 12:23:05 This: http://www.megakm.ru/cinema/Encyclop.asp?Topic=lvn_flm_2901 ? 12:23:41 "moscow does not believe in tears" is what the translation makes from it 12:23:48 * warpzero is back (gone 09:49:49) 12:24:26 Right. 12:25:24 brbr - reboot 12:25:32 --- quit: blockhead ("Client Exiting") 12:25:38 Sup dudes? 12:26:52 "because the acting is so brilliant, that you won't have to understand Russian to know what is being said." 12:28:09 takes a while for it to get going, low-budget. / A pretty good Russian soap opera, with interesting characters and issues. 12:29:45 Hm. Quite another class of movies is called "soap opera" here. 12:55:35 --- join: blockhead (default@dialin-553-tnt.nyc.bestweb.net) joined #forth 13:05:03 --- join: thin (~cduce@csnet021.cariboo.bc.ca) joined #forth 13:07:54 --- part: thin left #forth 13:54:19 --- quit: blockhead (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 14:09:03 --- part: Speuler left #forth 15:35:46 --- join: blockhead (default@dialin-173-tnt.nyc.bestweb.net) joined #forth 16:15:08 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@207.111.96.51) joined #forth 16:15:09 --- mode: ChanServ set +o TheBlueWizard 16:15:23 hiya all 16:15:46 Hi TheBlueWizard :) 16:16:49 hiya Robert 16:21:22 OMFG I'm tired 16:21:25 and I gotta leave soon too. 16:36:51 chris-xp, i'm writing a test suite for factor, more than 100 tests already 16:37:08 latest bug i've found is that code was getting miscompiled: 16:37:08 >r [ ] [ ] ? call r> 16:51:43 ... 16:51:45 erm. 16:51:49 yeah. 16:51:51 lol 16:52:19 gotta go 16:52:21 bye 16:52:21 it should be a no-op but it was getting compiled to the same behavior as r> 16:52:23 :) 16:52:32 hey 16:52:35 terve TheBlueWizard 16:53:11 --- join: Nutssh (~Foo@gh-1063.gh.rice.edu) joined #forth 16:53:18 moi mur :) 16:53:42 * TheBlueWizard will soon watch TV 17:10:59 * mur sleep soon 17:16:49 :) 17:37:52 very soon ;) 17:41:07 gn 17:45:56 hy 18:10:48 --- join: LOOPHOG (jdamisch@207.191.240.69) joined #forth 18:11:08 hi 18:12:21 awww man, quit hoggin all the loops, I need some :D 18:12:44 Ok, you get some 18:12:48 here :^) 18:12:56 thanks man! ;) 18:13:05 so you dig like 40 EDIT 18:13:14 40 LOAD 18:13:19 10 25 THRU 18:13:25 10 25 TRIAD 18:15:28 I still want to write a Forth for the GBA someday 18:15:57 game boy uses a z80, right? 18:16:41 thats old gb 18:16:44 the gba uses an ARM 18:16:49 its like 16mhz 18:16:51 oh 18:17:40 Jeff Massung has a BASIC that is on top of FORTH which is on top of SwiftForth on the PC 18:17:41 16MHz? I thought it would clock faster 18:17:57 there is supposedly a way to use the FORTH but i haven't done it 18:18:22 16mhz is plenty fast for 2-D games when you include the sprites and graphics modes 18:18:29 it has specialized hw for games 18:18:56 i wrote a game on an AtariST which was 8mhz, with no special graphics hardware, and it ran fast enough, some say too fast 18:19:17 when we ran it on a 16mhz TT030 it was too fast to be playable 18:19:53 have u ever written A game? 18:20:06 what I'm saying is that I thought ARMs are typically sold with higher clock ratings 18:20:19 do you call yourself blockhead because you like to code in blocks in Forth? 18:20:32 i can double check if you want to wait a min? 18:20:53 LOOPHOG, i'm coding a game right now with some parts of it in a forth-like language 18:21:01 nope. different reason 18:21:25 * TheBlueWizard has written a few tiny toy games...and is (very, very slowly) porting old text adventure games written in BASIC-PLUS to C :) 18:21:55 am i the only guy here who uses plain old FORTH? 18:22:02 Wiz, good luck on your game 18:22:14 sorry, slava 18:22:34 sorry, both people 18:23:04 LOOPHOG, plenty of others use forth 18:23:10 about clock rate, i think its right, and you can get a gba used for $40 now 18:24:23 LOOPHOG: I'm writing my own forth, so I guess you can say I use it, or will be soon :) 18:24:50 "The CPU is a 16.78 MHz ARM7tdmi RISC processor" from the CowBite Hardware Spec 18:24:59 LOOPHOG: I do use Forth from time to time, plus has one semi-frozen OS project involving Forth as well 18:25:03 blockhead, tew kewl dewd 18:25:15 wiz, ok 18:26:14 its fast enough to do gourand shaded polygon games ( but not texture mapped ) but you would probably need to do it in assembly then 18:26:28 id just write a 2d game if i did get a gba Forth 18:26:29 maybe 18:34:31 --- quit: qFox ("if at first you dont succeed, quit again") 18:37:59 i'm reading dragon basic message base now 18:46:50 --- join: MrReach (~spam@209.181.43.190) joined #forth 18:46:50 --- mode: ChanServ set +o MrReach 18:48:39 hi 18:48:46 hihi 18:49:42 i am downloading DragonBASIC which is written in Forth 18:49:49 its to make games on the GBA 18:50:15 * MrReach nods 18:51:13 --- join: Sonarman (~matt@adsl-64-169-94-121.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 18:51:21 hi 18:51:48 hi! 18:52:08 hiya MrReach 18:52:12 hiya Sonarman 18:52:29 i need to email Massung and tell him i'm having a bit of trouble dl-ing his dev kit 18:55:16 can't seem to get it 18:55:52 have you checked Google and Yahoo for alternate download sites?? 18:56:13 LOOPHOG: are you trying to get dragon basic? 18:56:49 yes 18:56:52 trying 18:56:59 i have not tried alternate sites yet 18:57:06 was going to post in the message base about it 18:57:22 i tried explorer 6.0 and Mozilla 1.5 18:58:13 mozilla 1.6 has been released, if you're interested 18:58:21 did you try this URL: http://www.jm-basic.com/dragon/download.php ? 18:58:42 yes i tried that url, 18:58:53 Sonarman, have you tried it yet? 18:59:56 i can WGET http://www.jm-basic.com/download/gallery/DBsetup.msi 19:00:00 gotta go 19:02:07 bye 19:14:39 i'm done, later guys 19:14:40 --- quit: LOOPHOG () 19:15:49 gotta go...bye all 19:16:06 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth 19:28:23 'nn all 19:28:33 --- quit: blockhead ("Client Exiting") 20:08:10 --- quit: Nutssh ("Client exiting") 20:08:17 --- join: Nutssh (~Foo@gh-1063.gh.rice.edu) joined #forth 20:22:23 --- quit: Sonarman ("leaving") 20:59:21 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@66-91-231-74.san.rr.com) joined #forth 20:59:27 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja 21:19:08 --- join: MarkT (Mark@operator.nss.udel.edu) joined #forth 21:28:14 --- quit: Nutssh ("Client exiting") 21:54:33 --- nick: MarkT -> YodaBob 22:02:27 * kc5tja has been thinking a bit about the ForthBox and its video display. 22:04:33 I think I'll support only either 320x240 or 512x384. 22:04:47 512x384 is still pretty big though. 22:05:08 1600x1200! :) 22:05:32 Not for a computer that supports at most a 12.5MHz bus. 22:08:59 320x240 is cool, and oldskool. Perfect for a forth display, I'd think. 22:10:09 Well, I realize that the extended color support can make up somewhat for lack of resolution. 22:10:24 kc5tja, what cpu? 22:10:32 E.g., anti-aliased 5 pixel-wide fonts can effectively simulate fonts that are 10 "pixels" wide, for instance. 22:10:41 slava: 65816 (16-bit version of the 6502) 22:10:51 kc5tja, neat 22:11:10 kc5tja, gui? 22:11:35 slava: If your app requires a GUI, you write it. 22:11:46 Otherwise, it'll be, as madgarden suggests, very old-school. 22:12:04 It boots into Forth. Just plain old vanilla Forth. 22:12:16 kc5tja, no standard ui... hmm :) 22:12:22 i'd love to see a forthish gui toolkit. 22:12:41 I'm sure I'll come up with one for my own code, and it'll be half-way consistent across programs. 22:12:51 But the idea is to keep the Forth kernel simple and uncluttered. 22:13:09 of course 22:13:22 It'll also be rather unsophisticated. 22:13:34 you mean 'simple and elegant' :) 22:13:49 If you've ever used GEOS for the Commodore 64 or 128, or GEM for the Atari ST or IBM PC, you'll have some idea of what I'd probably create. 22:14:23 kc5tja, if you go that route, then you must use the C64 colours as well. :) 22:14:25 slava: No, uncluttered completely. If your application requires a GUI, it'll be *compiled* into the code every time it's needed. 22:14:59 hi all 22:15:03 madgarden: Umm...OK. If you want. 320x240, each pixel having one of 256 possible colors, you can probably emulate the C64 colors fairly closely. 22:15:05 kc5tja: coolness, just read backbuffer. 22:16:41 kc5tja: I'd make you a GUI :) 22:18:18 * kc5tja is custom writing a GUI right now for my client, actually. 22:18:31 table or position based? 22:18:52 Huh? 22:18:56 What do you mean? 22:19:22 the GUI backbone, is it based on tables (containers), like GTK, or position in window, like Paragui 22:21:41 Well, they're both based on position. 22:21:51 But GTK has the added container abstraction. 22:22:02 This has no abstractions, so it's based entirely on position as per your criteria. 22:22:09 There are no windows. Just screens. 22:22:18 But I did just add dialog boxes out of necessity. 22:22:28 oh man, rush - spirit of the radio 22:22:33 the BEST fucking song in the world 22:22:37 Hardly. 22:22:40 I think it's one of their worst. 22:22:46 !! 22:22:54 what about earthshine? 22:22:55 * kc5tja finds Witchhunt to be overwhelmingly superior. 22:22:56 worst??? geez... 22:22:58 that one is soo great... 22:23:06 but spirit of the radio is better 22:23:09 Never heard Earthshine. 22:23:16 kc5tja: email? 22:23:28 ack, nvm 22:23:40 New World Man, Distant Early Warning, and Force Ten (and those era songs) are all my Rush favorites. 22:23:45 kc5tja: get it from lopster or something. 22:23:54 No thanks. 22:23:58 I don't do that P2P thing. 22:24:08 ok, I'll send you a file soon...email? 22:24:13 (unless yuou don't want to) 22:24:32 btw, those are all great too 22:24:38 but not as good as spirit of the radio :) 22:25:06 --- quit: YodaBob ("I'm outta here") 22:26:40 TOM SAWYER!! 22:26:44 that is a GREAT song! 22:26:47 Yes. That's another great one. 22:26:53 Force Ten is a great song... reminds me of winters on the lake, skiing through the woods. 22:27:24 tom sawyer is awesome.. 22:27:26 Analog Kid. 22:27:31 freewill is good too 22:27:51 It would probably be more efficient to list Rush songs that suck. ;) 22:27:54 so is roll the bones 22:28:10 madgarden: /dev/null > rush_songs_that_suck 22:28:38 Heh... well there are some I don't particularly like. 22:31:20 like...? 22:31:55 Virtuality 22:32:07 lemme see if I have that one... 22:32:23 nope, don't have that one. 22:32:29 kc5tja, http://www.nb.net/~rikercdr/comm.gif 22:32:32 ;) 22:32:57 * kc5tja nods 22:33:03 :) 22:33:18 Heh, actually these colours look more correct: http://www.infinite-loop.at/Power64/Images/Screenshots_OSX/C64-Startup.png 22:33:20 man, I have this urge to just bust out and start coding MIPS 22:33:24 but, I got other things to do ... :( 22:34:00 big money goes around the world.. 22:34:14 that one's not that good, but still ... very good! 22:34:23 BIG MONEY...that's what I was trying to remember but couldn't. That is easily my most favorite of all the Rush songs. 22:34:48 its great!Q 22:34:55 but, it doesn't beat spirit of the radio 22:34:56 :) 22:35:09 Big Money is good. 22:35:14 Marathon, too. 22:35:21 My favorite band is still Genesis though. 22:35:25 BAH! 22:35:26 ;) 22:35:52 * chris-xp is weird in that he likes his music based on artist, not genre 22:36:05 madgarden: umm...ok. 22:36:05 Well I'm Canadian, I have to pick Rush over Genesis. 22:36:10 :) 22:36:35 I'm an American, and therefore, is under anti-discriminatory and affirmative action laws. 22:36:41 Ergo, I'm sorry, Genesis wins out. 22:37:03 (later Genesis with Phil Collins at the helm kinda sucks though) 22:37:14 Ray Wilson had a LOT of promise, but it wasn't meant to be. 22:37:16 I generally like just about everything from a band if I like one of their songs. However, some bands change their style later to make me dislike them. 22:37:34 Disco KISS! 22:37:35 --- quit: chris-cyg ("Lost terminal") 22:38:04 proteusguy: same here... 22:38:05 proteusguy: Genesis, Rush, Pink Floyd, etc. have been around for so long that they all changed styles (it's natural to want to do that anyway; real musicians experiment). 22:38:22 There are something like 13 distinct "generations" of Genesis. 22:38:29 Only 8 really stick out though. 22:38:43 Zeppelin changed and invented styles all the time but they were always great. 22:39:47 * proteusguy loved Rush up til the albumn with "Big Money". Then he just kinda liked them... 22:39:49 proteusguy: If you happened to like all those styles, yes. 22:39:51 Not everyone does. 22:40:47 I listened to Rush since I was 8, what can I say... it's my childhood. Nostalgia wins. The later stuff has to earn it's keep, though. 22:40:54 its 22:41:08 * kc5tja has been listening to Genesis since long before 8. 22:41:13 Since I was born, actually. 22:41:24 youngsters! 22:41:56 When I was born, Genesis had already been around for 7 years or so. 22:42:11 lol 22:42:16 i was born in 87, so .... lol 22:42:32 chris-xp, you're a little kid :) 22:42:36 i was born in 84 22:42:41 * proteusguy spent his year in college in 87. haha 22:42:55 --- join: MarkT (Mark@operator.nss.udel.edu) joined #forth 22:43:02 I'm surrounded by old farts! 22:43:07 chris-xp, what's with the young dudes and Forth? Shouldn't they all be programming in Visual Basic .NET or something? :P 22:43:22 1972 here. 22:43:25 madgarden: thats the 13-year olds. 22:43:33 * proteusguy does not have gastrointenstinal emissions... 22:43:36 madgarden: the 16-year olds are just starting to tinker in C. 22:43:38 * kc5tja was born in 1975. 22:43:43 madgarden: but, I'm beyong that already.. 22:43:57 madgarden: s/c/c++/ 22:43:58 I still tinker in C, and I'm hardly beyond it. :P 22:44:04 :P 22:44:12 C++, I avoid if possible.' 22:44:19 Too fugly. 22:44:20 1968 - oldest so far! 22:44:29 proteusguy: Right when Genesis came to be. 22:44:32 * proteusguy loves C++. 22:44:43 And Zeppelin the following year. 22:44:47 C with interfaces works fine for me. 22:44:49 proteusguy: OLD FART! :) 22:44:49 proteusguy: I like C++ only when its features are used in extreme moderation. 22:44:59 I like Objective C 22:44:59 :) 22:45:01 kc5tja, agreed. 22:45:13 Forth I like and 22:45:17 The features must be used correctly. 22:45:43 And that implies moderation. 22:45:48 Hence my comment. :) 22:46:05 The implication is mistaken. 22:46:06 Extreme moderation of C++ is C. :P 22:46:26 "HERES ANOTHER VARIABLE! LETS STICK IT IN A CLASS OF ITS OWN AND PROVIDE 1000 METHODS FOR INTERFACING WITH IT!" 22:46:29 madgarden: No, because it wouldn't be C++ anymore. 22:46:43 kc5tja, it's eXtreme! 22:46:47 chris-xp: If proper object oriented design and abstraction calls for that, then that's precisely what I'd do. 22:46:51 madgarden: not really, because the C type system is better, imho :) 22:46:54 C++ is correctly used as a high-performance, high-level language. Extremly expressive. C is best used as a platform-independent assembler. 22:47:01 kc5tja: yes, of course. 22:47:03 chris-xp: You don't understand OO fully yet. 22:47:29 kc5tja: probably not, but of all the oop I've done so far, I've liked ObjC the best by far 22:47:55 proteusguy: Oberon has equal performance to C++, is a simpler language, has smaller compilers, is easier to use, and every bit as expressive (though more verbose in doing so). 22:48:14 kc5tja: got a good link on what oberon looks like? 22:48:20 Objective C is definitely a superior langauge to C++ in almost every way I can imagine. 22:48:29 Oberon is certainly not nearly as expressive as C++. No Wirthian language ever could be. 22:48:42 chris-xp: It's the successor to Modula-2, designed by Niklaus Wirth. Google for Oberon. 22:48:46 TONS of links. 22:48:49 Ok. 22:48:58 Geez... Objective C has all the downsides of SmallTalk and the syntax of C. How is it better than either language? 22:48:59 proteusguy: ummm.......... 22:49:05 proteusguy: Sorry, but that argument just doesn't stack up. 22:49:19 Anything I can write in C++ I can write in Oberon. Period. 22:49:27 : quick-sort [ dup not ] [ ] [ uncons [ dupd > ] partition ] [ swapd cons append ] binrec ; 22:49:29 proteusguy: it implements the C type system, which I really like, because its just barely there, but I can always go around it in a non-restrictive manner 22:49:55 proteusguy: Because it can do more than C++; dynamically typed languages are like that, ya know. 22:50:04 kc5tja: That argument quickly devolves to writing anything in ASM.... doesn't mean the compiler enforces it for you or that the language inherently supports it. 22:50:31 --- quit: Herkamire ("bedtime") 22:50:35 kc5tja: What can it do more than C++??? That's a silly remark. Please support it. 22:50:40 proteusguy: Your argument doesn't hold water. You've offered no evidence that concretely proves your case. 22:51:14 proteusguy: Method dispatch is dynamic, like I said. So it's trivially easy to write object remoting infrastructures for Objective C. 22:51:15 What case did I propose that you are arguing with? 22:51:41 C++ requires support from standards like CORBA that produces these god-awfully complicated (in comparison) stubs and proxies and all that mish-mash. Objective C is just plain cleaner. 22:51:44 C++ has dynamic method dispatch too. Its *one* of several methods supported. 22:51:48 * chris-xp likes how in objC a class = type id. period. no way around it. :) 22:51:52 That C++ was more expressive than Oberon. 22:52:02 --- quit: MarkT (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 22:52:03 CORBA has nothing whatsoever to do with C++/. Corba is crap. 22:52:04 chris-xp: Same in C++. 22:52:12 proteusguy: It has everything to do with C++. 22:52:17 kc5tja: er, no? 22:52:21 In the context I was explaining. 22:52:28 It's a pity you failed to recognize the context. 22:52:38 kc5tja: not that I know of, prove me wrong please 22:52:51 chris-xp: class foo {}; foo F1, F2, F3; 22:52:56 Ah more expressive than Oberon? OK - does Oberon have parameterized types? Does it support functional programming styles as well as OO at the same time? 22:53:02 proteusguy: Yes. 22:53:24 kc5tja: You'll never see Corba mentioned in any C++ standard spec... 22:53:28 proteusguy: Modern Oberon implementations have parameterized types (the original didn't because it was largely unnecessary). 22:53:41 proteusguy: If I have to repeat myself one more time...... 22:53:42 kc5tja: aah, but see, in objective C, i can go void foo(id some_class); and I can give it any class i can think og 22:53:44 of* 22:53:48 kc5tja: Please demonstrate an Oberon parameterized type. This is news to me. 22:54:50 proteusguy: I can't, because (a) I don't use it, (b) I don't have a sufficiently modern compiler. But I know that there is at least one implementation on the net that supports parametric polymorphism. 22:55:15 I remember reading the paper on it (accessible via CiteSeer), and thinking, "Gee, that's neat, but I don't need it," and moving on. 22:55:32 Its not in the language spec that I've seen. Has been a couple of years so maybe it changed but hacks on a language don't count. 22:55:39 * kc5tja has yet, in all the 20+ years he's been programming, to need parametric polymorphism or its inferior implementation called "templates". 22:56:01 Then you've never written real C++ code. 22:56:22 proteusguy: There are so many different dialects of Oberon right now that it's hard to say which Oberon you're referring to without having to qualify it with "ActiveOberon II plus Alpha DX/3!" 22:56:33 proteusguy: I've written tons of "real" C++ code. 22:56:40 Remember i used to write software for Hifn, Inc. 22:56:48 I wrote software for Armored Internet. 22:56:52 I wrote software for AxisInternet. 22:56:58 I wrote software for my software consulting firm. 22:57:02 * kc5tja is doing so now. 22:57:13 So, sorry, your claim that I've never written "real" C++ code just doesn't hold water. 22:57:17 i have on my stack ( comparator a e ); i want to end up at ( e a comparator a comparator ); 22:57:20