00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.02.27
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04:59:19 <ASau> Dobryjj vecher!
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07:33:20 <Robert> Privet
07:33:26 <ASau> Privet!
07:36:50 <ianp> KONTPA - the Konami game? :)
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07:39:35 <ASau> It was a joke of my father's friend.
07:41:03 <ASau> He called everyone disagreeing "counter-revolutioner."  "Contra" to be concise.
07:42:33 <Robert> Hehe
08:46:25 <ASau> I've made memory dumped utility in 1 screen.
08:46:37 <ASau> ...memory dumping...
08:46:48 <ASau> Does anyone need?
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09:15:41 <ASau> Dobryjj vecher!
09:17:43 <Herkamire> ASau: good noon ;)
09:19:11 <ASau> Do you need 1 screen mem. dump utility?
09:19:29 <ASau> Pretty printing included.
09:22:16 <Herkamire> ASau: huh?
09:22:59 <ASau> I needed one for debugging purposes, so I've written it.
09:23:22 <Herkamire> what is it dumping?
09:23:30 <Herkamire> the text from gnu screen?
09:23:38 <ASau> Hex dump.
09:24:00 <ASau> XX XX XX XX - XX XX XX XX - ...
09:24:02 <Herkamire> what data? the frame buffer?
09:24:15 <ASau> Any memory block.
09:24:35 <ASau> 16-byte alignment is made auto-magically.
09:24:49 <Herkamire> ASau: I see. what forth?
09:25:32 <ASau> It seems, that it should work in any classical enough forth.
09:27:59 <Herkamire> ASau: I'll take a look.
09:28:40 <Herkamire> I don't need it right now, but I want to have a few more forth code examples on my website if you don't mind
09:28:46 <Herkamire> (can I make it public domain?)
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09:31:32 <ASau> Consider it is free to reproduce.
11:03:00 <slava> hi
11:03:44 <Robert> Hi slava 
11:08:06 <ASau> Privet!
11:22:48 <ASau> Is there a standard  a<=x<=b ( x a b -- ? ) word?
11:23:16 <ASau> "Standard" means commonly used.
11:24:35 <slava> how about using math notation for intervals: [] is a<=x<=b, () is a<x<b, (] is a<x<=b, [) is a<=x<b :)
11:24:59 <Robert> Not a bad idea.
11:25:05 <ASau> Hm.
11:25:16 <ASau> ?[]  for my case?
11:25:17 <Robert> I've never seen any "standard" word for that anyway.
11:25:44 <ASau> Or []?  ?
11:25:49 <slava> ASau, what are you coding in forth?
11:26:19 <ASau> I migrate to forth with my research works.
11:26:38 <slava> cool
11:26:43 <slava> what forth?
11:27:07 <ASau> Consider it is FIG-Forth.
11:27:19 <ASau> It differs a little.
11:31:00 <slava> is 850 words considered a large program?
11:31:48 <Robert> In my world, yes.
11:31:49 <ASau> My Forth core is about 200 words.
11:32:30 <ASau> So 850 is about four times as large.
11:32:45 <slava> well not the language itself but the program
11:33:22 <ASau> It is pretty large.
11:33:44 <qFox> imo the number of words says little about how big it is
11:34:14 <qFox> maybe you have alot of words because you've optimized alot, increasing the number of words, but decreasing teh size of the code
11:34:26 <ASau> Consider 5 lines per word average.
11:34:28 <qFox> btw, i'm "back", brace for impact ;)
11:34:37 <ASau> No.
11:34:44 <ASau> 2--3 lines.
11:35:26 <slava> ASau, i have 2-3 lines per word average
11:36:25 <ASau> Hm.
11:36:55 <ASau> Intervals:  "x IN a b []" syntax.
11:37:33 <ASau> "x a b IN []" is also accepted as syn.
11:38:26 <ASau> No. IN overlaps core word.
11:39:21 <ASau> But idea seems good enough.
11:43:05 <ASau> TeX-like idea:  \in[] \in() \in[)
11:43:22 <ASau> TeX-influenced.
11:45:13 <ASau> BTW, crazy idea:   : ...  ." Code is incomplete! " ; IMMEDIATE
11:50:21 <ASau> Is BETWEEN reserved for something?
11:51:03 <ASau> BOUNDED ?
11:58:10 <Herkamire> I would do "BETWEEN?"
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16:55:17 <slava> quiet here
16:56:33 <Robert> Yes.
16:56:58 <Robert> But I found an old forther on EFnet, she's playing with Forth now for the first time in 20 years..
17:11:03 <slava> and it hasn't changed much :)
17:13:25 <Robert> Hehe
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17:31:00 <slava> hi all
17:31:26 <default_> hey
17:32:01 <slava> tonight i'll try to work on the compiler so that 100 more words are compiled properly :)
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17:32:10 <blcokhead> woops
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17:46:29 <chris-xp> HI ALL
17:48:59 <proteusguy> howdy
17:50:18 <chris-xp> Robert: hey
17:50:27 <chris-xp> Robert: who's the forther you found :)
17:50:37 <Robert> Er, nevermind.
17:50:44 <chris-xp> ..
17:55:47 <chris-xp> Robert: why nevermind?
17:56:04 <slava> hi chris-xp
17:56:18 <chris-xp> slava: Hi slava :)
17:56:38 <chris-xp> slava: what would be the best language to write a protable macro assembler in?
17:56:46 <slava> chris-xp, forth :)
17:56:52 <chris-xp> naah
17:56:56 <slava> why not?
17:56:59 <chris-xp> forth isn't good for string parsing.
17:57:02 <slava> visual basic!
17:57:05 <chris-xp> and not very available!
17:57:06 <slava> of course its good for parsing
17:57:14 <slava> : FOO ... ; IMMEDIATE
17:57:16 <chris-xp> slava: now, that statement desired massive face-punching!
17:57:17 <slava> there you go :)
17:57:31 <slava> chris-xp, my only other suggestion is factor ;)
17:57:33 <slava> or C
17:57:43 <slava> yeah, i think C or forth is best for this
17:57:44 <Sonarman> how is forth not good for string parsing?
17:57:49 <chris-xp> C then, I guess.
17:57:58 <slava> C string parsing is not stellar either.
17:57:58 <chris-xp> Sonarman: well, you wanna t00t0r me?
17:58:16 <slava> i'd give forth's text handling the upper edge just by virtue of the outer interpreter
17:58:20 <chris-xp> but C i can parse string in well :)
17:58:24 <chris-xp> heh
17:58:48 <slava> you could write C-like string handling in a few screens of forth code.
17:59:06 <chris-xp> well, its not C-like.
17:59:16 <slava> I AM SUCH A RETARD
17:59:26 <slava> was chasing a bug in the dataflow analysis for ages
17:59:29 <chris-xp> i meant what I'm parsing :)
17:59:35 <chris-xp> slava: ?
17:59:36 <slava> turns out one part did not consume parameters from the 'simulated' stack
17:59:45 <slava> arrggh!
17:59:47 <slava> arke!
17:59:48 <chris-xp> ..........................................
17:59:50 <chris-xp> LOL!
17:59:51 <chris-xp> haha
18:01:36 <chris-xp> I could always go with Brainfuck...
18:01:37 <chris-xp> lol
18:01:51 <chris-xp> but ... no
18:02:04 <slava> why not assembler :)
18:02:07 <slava> why are you writing one anyway
18:02:09 <chris-xp> slava: J# is Java "backwards compatible"?
18:02:10 <slava> nasm exists :)
18:02:15 <slava> chris-xp, don't use J#
18:02:20 <chris-xp> slava: because its completely, 100% protable
18:02:32 <slava> chris-xp, its a pseudo-jdk 1.1 (ie, 5 years old) that targets the .net VM
18:02:33 <chris-xp> slava: like as, but better
18:02:42 <chris-xp> oh heh
18:02:46 <Robert> I often use Forth for compilers/assemblers because of the simplicity of parsing.
18:03:16 <chris-xp> but ... I don't want to use forth.
18:03:19 <chris-xp> :P
18:03:33 <qFox> sinner.
18:03:44 <chris-xp> qFox: stfu n00b
18:03:44 <chris-xp> :P
18:03:50 <qFox> fine fine
18:03:54 <qFox> i'll go sleep
18:03:55 <qFox> tsk
18:03:56 <slava> chris-xp, why not
18:04:03 <chris-xp> qFox: :) sorry. Good night.
18:04:07 <qFox> np :p
18:04:13 <chris-xp> slava: because I need something very available.
18:06:18 <slava> chris-xp, here is a hard problem: deducing stack effects of recursive functions that themselves take code quotations as parameters
18:06:28 <slava> eg, factor's EACH function
18:06:34 <slava> [ 1 2 3 ] [ . ] each
18:06:44 <chris-xp> heh
18:06:46 <chris-xp> yeah!
18:06:55 <chris-xp> 1 2 3 ok :)
18:07:07 <slava> what does this do?
18:07:10 <slava> [ dup cons ] dup cons
18:07:12 <chris-xp> ...
18:07:14 <chris-xp> oh
18:07:17 <chris-xp> erm, lol
18:07:28 <chris-xp> [ dup cons dup cons ]
18:07:43 <slava> almost
18:07:46 <slava> [ [ dup cons ] dup cons ]
18:07:53 <slava> now suppose i have this on the stack
18:07:57 <slava> and i evaluate CALL
18:08:00 <slava> what is left on the stack
18:08:30 <chris-xp> [ [ dup cons ] dup cons ]
18:08:32 <chris-xp> lol
18:09:41 <slava> what about this : hello "hello" see ; hello :-)
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18:09:57 <chris-xp> hi MrReach
18:10:02 <MrReach> hihi
18:10:04 <slava> hi MrReach
18:10:16 <chris-xp> slava: erm... what does see do in factor? :)
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18:10:29 <slava> chris-xp, same as in forth but its not a parsing word
18:10:41 <chris-xp> because if this was forth, it would show the def for ; and then give an error about not knowing about hello
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18:33:28 <slava> hi kc5tja
18:33:31 <chris-xp> hi kc5tja
18:34:03 <kc5tja> re
18:36:00 <Robert> Hi
18:36:04 * kc5tja is going to the store.
18:36:06 <kc5tja> Back in a bit.
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20:41:12 <kc5tja> Back.
20:41:24 <kc5tja> Back a while ago, actually, but after eating, I fell asleep.
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21:00:40 <madgarden> hi. ;)
21:02:53 <slava> hi
21:23:14 <networm> hi
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21:39:31 <ASau> Dobroe utro!
21:40:55 <slava> hi ASau
21:42:48 <slava> i eliminated about 200 lines of code from my interpreter
21:43:01 <chris-xp> :)
21:43:03 <ASau> Congratulations.
22:06:33 <slava> looks like i broke something pretty badly:
22:06:33 <slava> ERROR: Stack effect of [ r> r> dup >r swap >r call r> r> while ] ( I -- O O O O O O O O O ) is inconsistent with [ r> drop r> drop ] ( I -- O O O O ), head is ( I -- O O O O r:O r:O )
22:07:06 <slava> i need a test suite
22:07:21 <chris-xp> l0l
22:08:11 <slava> and yes, the code in those quotations is pretty scary too.
22:13:16 <slava> i replaced r> r> dup >r swap >r
22:13:18 <slava> with rover r>
22:13:26 <slava> where rover is ( r:A r:B -- r:A r:B r:A )
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22:17:56 <slava> hi arke
22:18:47 <arke> well, I'm actually chris-cyg...
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22:47:43 <chris-cyg> quick bash question...
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22:48:17 <chris-cyg> if blah returns 0 when successful, and I want foo to be executed if it is, should I do blah && foo or blah || foo?
22:49:21 <slava> blah && foo
22:49:30 <chris-cyg> ok thanks
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23:08:56 <kc5tja> Sorry, but that won't work.
23:08:59 <kc5tja> blah || foo is correct.
23:09:05 <kc5tja> && and || are short-circuit operations.
23:10:23 <kc5tja> So if && sees that blah returns 0, and since no matter WHAT foo does it will return a zero anyway, foo won't even be executed.
23:10:43 <kc5tja> So what you want is ||, because this way, if blah returns 1, then foo doesn't execute (since || already knows ahead of time the result will be 1).
23:11:01 <kc5tja> However, that being said, THAT KIND OF C CODE IS DISASTEROUSLY HARD TO MAINTAIN and is the SCORN OF THE EARTH.
23:11:15 <kc5tja> It's much easier in the long run to just plain use nested IF statements or something.
23:19:12 <fridge> I thought he was talking about bash
23:19:13 <fridge> not c
23:19:33 <kc5tja> I could have been mistaken.
23:26:45 <slava> kc5tja, i have it burned in my mind that a && b == if(a) { b; } else false;
23:26:53 <slava> and also for ||
23:28:10 <slava> 408 out of 850 words compile but there is a new bug since selecting 'new game' enters the debugger straight away :(
23:32:52 <kc5tja> Nope.
23:33:00 <kc5tja> Oh, sorry, yeah.
23:33:09 <kc5tja> I thought that read a || b above.
23:33:24 <kc5tja> If, and only if, a is true, then b executes.
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23:35:51 <networm> and it gets really confusing when bash treats 0 as true :P
23:36:26 <kc5tja> Yeah.
23:36:29 <kc5tja> Don't mind me.
23:36:32 * kc5tja is getting tired.
23:36:46 <kc5tja> Spent four hours hacking on my customer's code, adn I'm still in the "C" mindset thusly.
23:40:17 <networm> i like C. I finally understand the , operator now since I started this forth VM. x = (VM->pop (), VM->x);
23:41:42 <kc5tja> I like C well enough, but I'd *much* rather be coding this project in Forth.
23:46:27 <networm> which Forth would i use to get optimized binaries out of it?
23:46:34 <networm> something like "gcc" is for C
23:46:50 <kc5tja> Probably BigForth for Linux.
23:47:23 <kc5tja> Also, most modern commercial Forth systems are highly optimizing nowadays too.
23:48:12 <networm> ah, yes, i forgot, it should be free and for linux :) i'll look at BigForth
23:49:28 <networm> hm, doesn't seem to be in debian
23:50:01 <kc5tja> I'm not aware of any packages for it for any distro.
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