00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.02.26 00:04:22 incrementing both counters at once ? 00:04:48 Yes. 00:05:14 Like LISP's map. 00:05:32 * Serg knows 0 of LISP 00:05:49 ASau, in my language: [ 1 + ] 2apply :-) 00:06:17 slava, I'm not interested in your language. Sorry. 00:06:32 --- quit: networm (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 00:07:03 If there's no name I can invent one myself. 00:07:06 why don't you just think of a name for SWAP 1+ SWAP 1+ ? i doubt its standard 00:07:22 : 2++ .... 00:07:49 Maybe someone has invented. 00:08:13 In such cases I like not to do excess work. 00:08:26 it is "excess work" to think of a name? 00:08:57 I don't like non-descriptive names. 00:09:38 +1/BOTH 00:09:41 : c@+ ( addr -- char ) dup @ dup c@ -rot 1+ swap ! ; 00:09:45 or 1+/BOTH 00:10:15 counter c@+ 00:26:52 --- join: networm (~networm@L0626P03.dipool.highway.telekom.at) joined #forth 00:29:11 Serg, zhestoko. How do you use your c@+ ? And where? 00:29:52 : incr.both ? 00:30:28 : incr.top.2 ? 00:34:43 Is ADVANCE used for anything? 01:01:29 i already use words like a@+ in my game SOKOBAN written in one-liners 01:01:41 http://cryptomancer.narod.ru 01:02:31 c@+ gets an adress of counter variable and leaves char found at counter, 01:02:42 and (side effect) increments counter 01:03:53 : c@+ ( addr -- char ) dup @ c@ swap 1+! ; 01:06:53 ---- 01:07:19 read "Thinkful programming" and about A register in Chuck Moore's processors 01:07:54 I've read it. 01:11:29 both of it ? nice ! 01:14:08 --- quit: ASau () 01:16:07 --- quit: Serg () 01:21:38 --- join: ASau (~asau@158.250.48.196) joined #forth 01:49:30 --- join: qFox (C00K13S@cp12172-a.roose1.nb.home.nl) joined #forth 02:13:23 --- quit: networm (Remote closed the connection) 02:48:28 --- join: Serg (Serg_Pengu@212.34.52.140) joined #forth 02:53:13 --- quit: qFox ("if at first you dont succeed, quit again") 02:53:26 --- join: qFox (C00K13S@cp12172-a.roose1.nb.home.nl) joined #forth 02:55:33 --- join: serg_ (~serg@c-8f5a71d5.17-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) joined #forth 02:57:27 Good afternoon! 02:57:31 Hi ASau 02:59:44 Robert, how do you think 02:59:53 About? 03:00:02 does anyone here need input line editor 03:00:07 written in Forth? 03:00:12 Input line editor? 03:01:32 It seems I need one. 03:02:00 I'm tired with only "backspace and retype." 03:02:53 BTW, are there any requirements on TIB length in ANS? 03:04:23 --- quit: serg_ ("leaving") 03:09:54 --- join: Kurt (1000@mrdh-b-102.resnet.purdue.edu) joined #forth 03:10:04 * Kurt points out that total free-market capitalism is the ONLY moral system 03:10:30 That's why I shouldn't mention this channel when morons like you are there... 03:10:41 heh 03:10:48 if I'm a moron, then you're brain-dead 03:10:57 actually, I was in here the other day 03:11:01 chandler mentioned it in #ifdef 03:11:20 asking for backup in an argument with the socialist kc5tja and another person who is a combination Soviet apologist/Nazi sympathizer 03:13:23 Kurt, how good do you know XIX and XX centuries history? 03:13:34 pretty well 03:13:41 not as well as I should 03:13:44 but better than most 03:13:59 history is one of the degrees I'm pursuing as well as an incredible interest of mine 03:14:44 ok, so the KKK is moral? 03:15:04 The imprisonment of innocent American Japaneese during WWII was moral? 03:15:40 no 03:15:46 I like how you join and just start a flamewar 03:15:49 what do those have to do with capitalism? 03:15:56 Kurt, who was Sverdlov? 03:15:58 its cute 03:16:12 (although the KKK have every right to hold and express their beliefs, just like everyone else) 03:16:15 Kurt: The US is the biggest capitalist country. 03:16:43 ASau: I remember him vaguely...he was one of Lenin's partisans, wasn't he? 03:16:50 We have the most killings (last I checked), even in comparison to countries with more people like China. 03:16:51 imaginator: the US is not capitalist, it is industrial statist 03:16:54 Kurt, no. 03:17:09 I thought the US was fascist 03:17:16 wrt merging of stat+business 03:17:22 hoho 03:17:27 Kurt, so you don't know histoty of Soviet Russia. 03:17:57 nothing justifies what happened under Stalin 03:18:02 NOTHING 03:18:14 and who was Sverdlov, then? 03:18:39 Kurt, what country do you live in? I'll find examples of your own. 03:18:47 US 03:18:58 Sverdlov was the head of the first Soviet government. 03:19:18 Nah. What justifies Johnson? 03:19:37 nothing 03:19:39 What justifies Clinton and Bush Jr.? 03:19:43 nothing 03:19:46 what's your point? 03:20:08 ASau: Pssst! He thinks everyone but Ayn Rand are evil communists. 03:20:27 Ahh! Who's Ann Rand? 03:20:50 a real bitch who had a lot of good ideas nonetheless 03:21:13 What ideas? 03:21:22 read some of her works 03:21:32 ASau: Help yourself, fuck the others. 03:21:49 obviously Robert can't read English... 03:22:01 What did he say? 03:22:20 Rand held that one's own life was his highest moral virtue. This does not mean "fuck the others", it simply means you have no inherent obligation to exist for their sake 03:22:23 What does she think on Iraq problem? Arab problem? 03:22:38 I doubt she thinks anything of it, since she's been dead for twenty years 03:22:42 what does this have to do with forth? 03:22:56 So she is nobody. 03:23:02 no, she's somebody 03:23:06 hovil: :) 03:23:14 it just so happens that she's a somebody who has also been dead for twenty years 03:23:17 hovil, I agree with you. Let's speak on Forth. 03:23:28 Real Programmers use Algol, dammit 03:23:32 take it to #armchairsociologists 03:24:01 Kurt, Israel-Arab conflict is 90 yr. old. 03:24:41 sorry, I thought you meant the present-day state of affairs 03:25:02 as in, the current war in Iraq, the current situation developing between Israel and the PLO, etc. 03:25:11 So even if she has been dead since 1950, she was to consider it. 03:26:02 Kurt, no matter. The situation did no changes since 1950. 03:26:14 In major, I mean. 03:26:28 like I said, though, I thought you were asking about specifics 03:26:30 but anyway 03:26:49 I don't know if she ever spoke about that particular issue, but I'm sure she had a certain opinion about it 03:27:03 and one can determine how she probably felt about it by applying her philosophy to the situation 03:27:15 Kurt, there is only one year in question: 1949. 03:27:29 ok, forget I said anything 03:27:39 you obviously don't understand what I'm trying to say 03:27:53 you obviously don't understand what I AM saying 03:28:11 * Kurt is away: Food 03:28:15 --- nick: Kurt -> Kurt|Food 03:29:04 "There's no abstract truth, truth is always concrete." 03:29:27 correct 03:29:32 now, to eat 03:29:53 So if you want to speak for Rand you should solve some particular problems. 03:30:11 I will 03:30:13 after I eat 03:30:21 I'm leaving now 03:30:31 it's 6:30 AM, the dining halls are open, and I'm hungry 03:30:32 BTW, these were words of Lenin. 03:30:44 so the retard was right about one thing 03:30:46 whoopee 03:31:29 Robert, so what's about input line editor? 03:31:50 I still don't know what one of those do 03:31:59 It can be considered like mini-buffer in Emacs. 03:32:09 I don't use emacs. :) 03:32:11 An editor for one line. 03:32:18 Ah! 03:32:28 Read-line lib of GNU. 03:32:42 What's the point of a one-line editor? To edit Forth words? 03:32:45 Something like that. 03:33:12 You know Forth is interactive. 03:33:22 Yes. 03:33:40 When you type you expression in, you do mistakes. 03:33:58 Gforth uses read-line lib, IIRC. 03:34:07 It's not written in Forth. 03:34:08 Ah, so you can scroll back? 03:34:19 Hm/ 03:34:42 Scrolling back may also be good feature... 03:34:47 And edit those lines, and execute them again. 03:35:08 When you said editor, I thought about saving those lines to a file. 03:35:17 I meant editing current line. Not "cancel-and-retype" style. 03:35:47 ex is a good one line editor =) 03:36:21 Then yes, that is a good idea. 03:36:25 I don't know if there's any Forth-written one. 03:36:27 One of the features I miss in IsForth. 03:37:21 Robert, it's one of the features I miss in my Forth. 03:38:14 But it's rather complex. Read: "I'm too lazy." 03:39:07 How do you think, should we join our efforts? 03:39:35 Or defer it to the future? 03:40:51 * Robert prefers to wait until someone else implements it. 03:40:52 ;) 03:40:58 Hm. 03:41:09 I also prefer this. 03:41:27 But it seems there no such men around. 03:42:05 Too bad. 03:42:14 Then I'll continue using vi + isforth ;) 03:47:10 You'd better thought how to write it. 03:47:37 After several days, weeks or monthes of meditation it may become very easy. 03:48:02 Hehe 03:48:13 I guess so. 03:48:23 Wrote an entire editor in Forth a while ago. 03:48:48 Robert, source available? 03:48:53 Of course. 03:48:58 http://robert.zizi.org/f.html 03:48:59 zizi? 03:49:37 A friend owns that domain, so he got me robert.zizi.org :) 03:50:06 Ah. 03:50:10 I think it looks nice, but later he explained that's what french babies call dicks. 03:55:17 --- quit: imaginator (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 03:55:22 --- join: imaginator (~George@166.70.196.201) joined #forth 03:55:43 heh, robert.cock.org ? 03:57:10 this depends on your suck-sess w/ french girls ;))) 03:57:19 do you justify his trust ? 04:02:49 * Kurt|Food is back (gone 00:34:39) 04:02:52 --- nick: Kurt|Food -> Kurt 04:02:56 --- nick: Kurt -> Kurt|Sleep 04:03:26 * Kurt|Sleep is away: Sleep 04:16:36 --- quit: imaginator (Remote closed the connection) 04:18:08 --- part: Serg left #forth 04:25:10 --- join: Serg (~z@212.34.52.140) joined #forth 04:57:02 moi serg 04:58:26 Privet! 05:00:10 terve ASau 05:00:45 Question of the day: what do "moi" and "terve" mean? 05:05:11 finnish greetings 05:06:09 --- quit: hovil ("Leaving") 05:06:53 That's understood. 05:08:19 E.g. "zdravstvujj" is "health to you," "privet" is "(nice to) meet (you)." 05:11:01 snaju 05:11:16 salut - fire explosition 05:26:37 --- quit: proteusguy (Connection timed out) 05:48:45 --- quit: Serg () 08:00:03 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@216.27.161.121) joined #forth 08:14:49 --- join: Nutssh (~Foo@gh-1081.gh.rice.edu) joined #forth 08:22:14 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@66-91-231-74.san.rr.com) joined #forth 08:22:23 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja 08:25:48 Hi 08:25:54 Feeling better? 08:25:54 Howdy 08:25:58 Yeah. 08:26:03 I feel pretty 'normal' right now. 08:26:07 Still eating light though. 08:26:11 :) 08:42:48 Dobryjj vecher, kc5tja! 08:42:54 howdy 08:43:06 goodbies soon though, as I'll be needing to get to school soon enough. 08:43:22 Life goes on. 08:43:29 Yep. 08:43:40 I'm just fine. 08:44:11 As usual. 08:44:30 Cool. 08:45:37 Anyway it could be much worse. 08:56:34 --- join: thin (thin@bespin.org) joined #forth 08:57:29 re thin 08:59:50 i asked someone what it means to "re all" or "re " 08:59:56 and re stands for respect 08:59:58 according to that guy 09:00:04 "respect thin" 09:00:05 :P 09:00:44 re me. :) 09:01:13 --- quit: thin ("laters") 09:05:04 --- join: thin (~thin@stu02065.cariboo.bc.ca) joined #forth 09:07:02 Your feeble attempt to get me to re-re you has failed. 09:07:23 Bow before me, all ye who ph34r my 1337 p0w3rz... 09:09:15 lol 09:10:14 * proteusguy bows. 09:14:26 Hm... 09:14:40 Translate "ph34r" into human. 09:15:03 AH! 09:15:07 "phEAr", a bastardization of fear. 09:15:09 I've understood. 09:15:37 It's the closest thing the Internet has to actual ghetto-style graffiti there is. 09:22:05 man i hate crazy ppl on days when i'm not feeling crazy 09:22:48 thin, wait a month. 09:22:59 Spring is coming soon. 09:23:07 all the reason for less insanity 09:24:12 Well, I need to get to school. 09:24:14 Laters. 09:24:43 kc5tja: that reminds me, i was gonna ask you about fuel cells :P 09:25:00 Heheh :) 09:25:24 Okay, I'll be back in around 9 hours or so. 09:25:24 well i'm looking for the "forth" of fuel cells 09:25:31 if you happen to know, tell me :P 09:25:36 That I don't know, sorry. 09:25:40 I'm not aware of any. 09:25:40 ok 09:25:44 You mean, a fuel cell working backwards? 09:25:59 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK") 09:26:07 robert: you being obtuse? 09:26:32 Obviously. 09:27:49 well i think i found the "forth" of fuel cells anyways 09:28:02 just checking if kc5tja knows anything 09:28:58 thin, where have you found fuel cells? 09:29:17 googling 09:29:29 It seems they're only experimental now. 09:31:38 Last I checked they were more than twice less effective in comparison even to Diesel motors. 09:31:53 well yeah 09:31:54 they're crap 09:31:59 but i gotta write a report about it 09:32:19 so i googled for the most unique one i coudl find 09:32:27 but there's shit out there 09:33:12 Thin, you'd consider sci. journals search. 09:34:31 i already found what i wanted 09:35:08 just checking in case kc5tja knew anything, that's all 09:35:12 Usually google does not help in such cases at all. 09:35:27 you don't have to continue to talk 09:35:37 OK. 09:37:19 thin, what is the state of your planned Forth OS? 09:38:51 1) make money 09:39:02 2) buy chuck moore & kc5tja 09:40:45 Hm. Are you sure you'll ever get p.1 real? 09:41:09 BTW, what do you think about Retro? 09:41:20 well eventually, but dunno if i'll get it soon enough 09:41:34 because the computer industry is gonna be obsolete quite soon 09:41:42 current industry i mean 09:41:48 OSes like windows/linux etc 09:42:01 obsoleted fairly soon 09:44:22 And what do you suspect to come instead? 09:51:38 --- join: networm (~networm@L0650P28.dipool.highway.telekom.at) joined #forth 09:52:11 asau: we'll probably just harness the power of evolution to evolve solutions, applications, etc on the fly 09:52:26 we won't even need to understand WHY the solutions work 09:52:35 these solutions include physical solutions 09:52:40 like hardware 09:52:40 etc 09:55:51 I don't think so. 09:56:22 asau: it's already happening, it's called "genetic programming" and they have evolved circuits that do the job better than human-designed circuits 09:56:29 It seems we the most probably will sink into "new" Mid. Ages. 09:56:35 and guess what? electrical engineers don't even understand hwo the circuits work 09:56:51 asau: yes there is a possibility of that too 09:56:52 i agree 09:57:16 thin, these genetic programming is not proved secure. 09:57:17 hopefully the impetus to colonize space will be strong enough to get some of us offplanet before that happens 09:57:23 secure? 09:57:39 There are many side effects. 09:58:06 so? 09:58:18 we'll figure out how to use evolution efficiently 09:58:22 it's a technology 09:58:26 obstacles are overcomable 09:58:37 There are some successes. 09:58:49 But they seem to be 09:58:58 ...like a "quick hack". 09:59:14 how so? 09:59:36 i thought forth was "hackish" when i first encountered it 09:59:46 Not a new system, but a small changes to old. 09:59:58 well it's starting out 10:00:01 can't expect instant revolution 10:00:30 thin, cold fusion also seemed an energetic crisis solution. 10:01:02 Of course there's probability of success. 10:01:29 But it may be reached in very far future 10:01:30 evolution is a well established force of the universe 10:01:35 or not reached at all. 10:01:46 you can't make analogies between evolution and cold fusion 10:02:02 thin, evolution does not mean progress. 10:02:25 There're many regressive branches of evolution. 10:02:35 E.g. parasites. 10:03:58 just because you don't like parasites it doesn't make it a regressive evolution 10:04:22 be more scientific in this discussion 10:05:30 BTW, Fermat hypothesis was not proven in a little time after it had been formulated. 10:05:54 The evolution of math went different way. 10:06:39 Evolution is not progress, evolution may be regress. 10:06:42 --- quit: Nutssh ("Client exiting") 10:06:55 you still haven't proven that your statement is true 10:06:56 Complexification vs. simplification. 10:07:13 thin, this can't be proved. 10:07:38 you are forgetting the definition of evolution 10:07:45 My statement can't be proved, and so yours can't. 10:07:51 by definition, evolution is progressive 10:08:24 evolution is about propagation of the more superior 'genes' based on the PARAMETERS 10:08:40 for example, if the parameters are set in a certain way 10:08:44 then you'll see COMPLEXIFICATION 10:08:50 but if the parameters are "simplicity" 10:08:54 then you'll see simplificiation 10:09:30 Counter examples: heat shock enzimes. 10:09:59 Bend worms. 10:10:20 ...or how are they called in English? 10:10:21 pay attention to the definition of evolution 10:10:30 i have proven your statement false :P 10:11:38 thin: bend worms are _very_ simple. Much more simple than plain. 10:12:14 But they are descendants of plain worms. 10:12:14 bend worms are fine 10:12:20 Not ancestors. 10:12:22 sure 10:12:24 ok 10:12:33 so an organism simplifies because its in a different environment 10:12:40 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 10:12:42 it's always gonna be the best in a given environment 10:12:45 --- join: _proteus (~proteusgu@216.27.161.121) joined #forth 10:12:46 all organisms have their niches 10:12:58 we sheded most of our hair 10:12:59 and our tail 10:13:05 simplification 10:13:09 are we regressive? 10:13:11 :P 10:13:20 --- quit: _proteus (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 10:13:44 --- join: _proteus (~proteusgu@216.27.161.121) joined #forth 10:14:13 No, you have changed statement. 10:14:30 I've not stated we are regressive. 10:14:43 I've stated that evolution does not mean progress. 10:14:55 then define progress 10:15:01 you are wrong 10:15:04 There are progressive and regressive sides. 10:15:20 "progressive" and "regressive" are not useful concepts here 10:15:22 they don't matter 10:15:24 they are irrelevant 10:15:24 There are many conservative species. 10:15:42 what's relevant is the creation of solutions/organisms adapted to the specific environment/parameters 10:16:14 i'm not interested in educating you here 10:16:20 --- part: thin left #forth 10:17:22 Vernadskijj shew that humans change their environment, not themselves. 11:35:45 --- join: bighawk (~xyz@cc629158-a.ensch1.ov.home.nl) joined #forth 11:35:49 hi bighawk 11:35:56 hey 11:37:15 bighawk, i don't know about any forth books, but this is a very good tutorial: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/gforth/Docs-html/ 11:37:22 bighawk, download gforth and play around with it. 11:38:13 hmm 11:38:16 will take a look at it 11:38:22 and would this be easy compilable to jvm? :) 11:38:40 subset yes. good enough for your compiler course 11:41:04 ok, will take a look at it 12:06:23 --- nick: _proteus -> proteusguy 12:50:41 is there a standard name for ( a b c -- a ) ? 12:50:45 oops 12:50:49 i mean ( a b c -- a b c a ) 13:11:14 slava: no, you'll have to use PICK 13:11:57 i'm trying to write a word : subset ( list code -- list ) ; that returns a new list for all elements for which code returned true 13:27:52 do the terms XT, compilation address, codefield address generally mean the same? 13:35:20 --- part: Kurt|Sleep left #forth 13:48:47 I think so. 13:49:01 hi madgarden 13:49:07 Ahoy 13:49:10 >body ( acf -- apf ) 13:49:10 Finds the parameter field address from the compilation address 13:50:10 that word will be slow in my implementation :P 13:50:18 needs to scan all the dictionary 13:50:23 Not at all. 13:50:33 oh 13:50:45 It just adds an offset to the XT to get the data field address 13:51:17 ah, yes. i meant the word to find the location in the dictionary, given the compilation address 13:51:40 Is there such a word? 13:51:52 Do you mean, the "index" of the word in the dictionary? 13:52:08 The XT is the location of the word, really. 13:53:45 hm.. let me find it in ANS.. 13:55:23 i think i've finally found a use for defining words in Factor 13:55:27 XT is the address of a word's code field, which can be used to find the address of the name field, param field, etc. 13:55:38 slava, DOES> ? 14:00:13 ah, >NAME and >LINK 14:00:59 i have no easy way to get that information from the XT.. since the XT is just the address of the codefield, somewhere in memory 14:13:32 --- join: Nutssh (~Foo@dunwlessnat.rice.edu) joined #forth 14:22:37 what is the standard way to specify an endless loop? Something better than BEGIN ... 0 UNTIL ? 14:23:22 : foo foo ; 14:23:59 there is no garantee what the XT is. it could be a dictionary address, or the CFA or whatever 14:24:19 slace: heh, yes.. but for ... i want some code 14:24:26 slava: that won't work with ans forth 14:24:38 networm: I think it's BEGIN ... AGAIN 14:24:41 hm.. something doesn't want me to spell your name. 14:26:06 yes, AGAIN, thanks 14:26:46 people misspell herkamire all the time. I get hurk and hirk regularly. hark once. 14:27:11 i meant slava :) 14:27:29 i just wrote "slace".. and i did the same two days ago 14:27:52 :) I rarely type more than 2 characters before hitting tab 14:28:42 yes.. that's why i looked if someone has that name first. but since nobody does, i must have typed it in 14:28:51 maybe some spell correction in xchat? 14:29:06 which only kicks in sometimes though.. :) 14:32:49 use irssi 14:35:07 apt-get install xirssi 14:35:22 although, i quite like xchat.. and i guess my scripts will stop working 14:35:34 what i need is a replacement for gaim which doesn't crash so much 14:37:02 --- join: gulliver2 (~gulliver2@bi-node.teuto.de) joined #forth 14:37:34 --- join: jamc (dne@as3-6-8.asp.s.bonet.se) joined #forth 14:38:02 Hi 14:38:26 hello there 14:41:55 hm, the xirssi in debian is quite in alpha shape. can't even change the font to something readable 14:43:38 I'm happy with irssi-text. 14:47:31 --- part: gulliver2 left #forth 15:09:36 --- quit: Nutssh ("Client exiting") 15:09:41