00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.02.24 00:21:59 --- quit: fridge (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 00:22:30 --- join: Serg (~z@212.34.52.140) joined #forth 00:25:08 hi folks ! 00:31:43 --- join: imaginator (~gps@166.70.196.201) joined #forth 00:31:57 hi 00:34:38 --- join: fridge (~fridge@dsl-203-33-164-223.NSW.netspace.net.au) joined #forth 00:39:45 I just joined the Forth Orkut community. 00:41:04 I have some questions about assembly language usage and a Forth that's written in a mixture of assembly and C. 00:41:50 Right now I'm trying to experiment with having a private stack, so that I can pushl and popl any data from my Forth words onto a private stack. 00:42:48 So at the start of my run() I store the SS and ESP, and I'm planning to replace them with my own, and then before returning from run() I would restore SS and ESP. 00:43:01 Does this sound like it would work? I'm not very good with assembly yet. 00:49:30 what is an orkut? 00:51:00 orkut.com 00:51:17 I think kc5tja joined, and I'm not sure who the rest are yet. 00:53:45 Yes, I joined. 00:54:01 BTW, if I go AFK, it's because I'll be temporarily napping. 00:54:13 I cannot sleep tonight because of an upset stomach that I'm nursing. 00:54:20 So I'll be on and off keyboard throughout the night. 00:54:23 oh, I hope you get better. 00:55:37 I wasted a lot of time today with an experiment with assembly. I was trying to pushl %ss and then pop it via printf, but it doesn't work. 00:55:50 I am getting better, but it's ruining my sleep schedule. :) 00:56:23 I discovered what may be obvious to some of you -- that the segment registers have to be moved into registers like eax before pushing, or mov'ing to other memory. 00:56:40 kc5tja: How is your Forth progressing? 00:56:45 It isn't. 00:56:46 No time. 00:56:57 But it's at a nice clean breaking point, so it'll be nice and easy to pick up again. 00:56:57 Did you get a new job? 00:57:19 Of sorts, yes. I now program some embedded Linux stuff for a client. 00:57:31 cool 00:57:31 * kc5tja may be quitting In-N-Out to work for the embedded coding job though. 00:57:34 That'll free up some time. 00:57:40 3 jobs is just too much. :) 00:57:47 I should think so :) 00:58:06 sh/w 00:58:40 btw, push SS ought to work. 00:59:00 But it's possible that the assembler might be generating 16-bit code for that, so your stack would get misaligned. 00:59:15 I'm using inline assembly with gcc. 00:59:17 Therefore, as you say, one should always use another register just to be safe. 00:59:20 * kc5tja nods 00:59:46 I used pushl instead of pushw 00:59:52 hmm 00:59:54 weird. 00:59:59 yah, I thought so too. 01:00:02 It should have pushed a 32-bit word then. 01:00:59 So, you're into Wankel engines? 01:01:26 (saw that on Orkut) 01:01:42 Yes. 01:01:42 :) 01:02:03 I've been interested in Wankel/rotary engines. I used to have some videos of them racing. 01:02:51 I like them, because they are unique, and I thought it was a clever idea to design an engine that works like they do. 01:03:01 * kc5tja nods -- that's why I like them too. 01:03:26 I do acknowledge that they are gas hogs, which makes me a bit of a hypocrite (as I'm also into alternative energies and reduction of fossil fuel consumption, etc). 01:03:54 But then again, I don't feel so bad; Wankels are *far* more efficient than your SUV engines. :D 01:04:00 :) 01:04:11 I don't have a car right now. 01:04:21 I used to have a 52 Kaiser Manhatten. 01:04:52 I was going to put a big engine in it, and restore some of it, but my mom didn't want a project in the garage. 01:05:08 :/ 01:05:35 The Kaisers were nice looking cars, but this particular model had problems with overheating. 01:05:54 Hehehe -- sounds like a common problem with the 3rd generation RX-7. 01:06:03 In Utah the grill blocked too much air for it to stay at the right temperature. 01:06:15 Everything was packed so tightly under the hood that it was well known to overheat. Not the engine, but some of the exhaust parts. 01:06:31 catalytic converter? 01:06:42 Turbos, one of the 3 cats, etc. 01:07:01 3 sounds like a lot. 01:07:20 The cats that are used on the RX-7 are small and each is designed to perform only one chemical reaction at a time. 01:07:23 Think of it as pipelining. 01:07:30 oh, cool. 01:07:36 Traditional cats are thicker and do more conversions in a single unit. 01:07:49 But it is a *bitch* to deal with, especially when getting the car smogged. :) 01:07:55 :) 01:10:17 It seems like a wankel or turbine engine would be more efficient than a 4-cycle piston engine. 01:10:42 I wonder why this doesn't seem to be though. 01:10:54 Blow-by losses. 01:11:10 The seals of a Wankel don't seal nearly as well at lower RPMs as they do at higher RPMs. 01:11:29 And a turbine basically has no seals at all. :) It's amazing it works at all. :) 01:11:43 Wankels are more fuel efficient than a comparably sized turbine though. 01:12:54 So, the turbine wouldn't have enough force and would be wasteful at low speeds. 01:13:03 heh :) what about diesel-elektric, like German giant panzer Maus ? 01:13:28 diesel will run constantly in best eco-mode 01:13:57 bursts for start and recuperation from brakes - use battery or ionistor 01:14:28 Diesels are loud and heavy though. 01:14:31 kc5tja: what if the turbine or wankel was small, but ran really fast? What's the redline on an RX-7? 01:15:11 imaginator: The redline on most street-legal RX-7s is around 7500RPM (the redline on an RX-8 is much higher; 9500). 01:15:14 Diesels are running in a mode that destroys most regular car engines, so the parts are much heavier. 01:15:28 * Serg wants to look at only surviving Maus in Kubinka, great panzer museum near Moscow 01:15:52 yikes that's fast. 01:16:22 :) 01:16:43 gotta buy decent camera, mine has loose door 01:17:54 * Serg will hit as much technical/military museums as i can, this spring/summer 01:18:12 Uugh, it seems I now have a fever. 01:18:39 I am pretty confident this rules out food poisoning. This is definitely the stomach flu. 01:19:25 I had the stomach flu a month ago. 01:19:39 I thought I ate some bad Havarti. 01:20:19 I went to the doctor after I threw up 5 times, and then he gave me some pills to prevent the acid from hurting my stomach. 01:20:41 My mom got sick later, and she got an ulcer, because of the acid. 01:20:47 * kc5tja nods 01:20:53 Anyway, moral of the story is to drink a lot. 01:20:58 I vomited twice, and my body threatened a third time. 01:21:05 I hope you get better soon. It feels awful. 01:21:08 Yeah. 01:21:10 ;((( 01:21:16 what ze hell u eat ? 01:21:19 * kc5tja can't drink too much too fast -- otherwise the nausea comes back. 01:21:40 Serg: I'll probably eat a liquid-based diet: gatorade and chicken soup broth, for a few days. 01:22:16 hmmm... 01:22:25 me rarely suffer from stomach 01:22:29 I had chicken broth and gatorade. 01:22:56 * imaginator wonders where these flu bugs breed/live 01:23:02 'getting jet-powered' once in few months, non-repetitive - at most 01:26:14 No kidding. 01:26:49 * Serg is kidding all the time ;)) 01:27:04 That SS problem earlier I just revisited: asm ("pushl %ss"); asm ("pushl $emit_fmt"); asm ("movl $printf,%eax"); asm ("call *%eax"); 01:27:19 The first time it prints a different number than the second. 01:27:30 The second set of asm instructions is identical. 01:27:42 brb -- bathroom 01:27:47 :( 01:28:08 * imaginator hopes kc5tja isn't throwing up again 01:30:54 I can do this repeatedly and it's the same: asm ("movl %ss,%eax"); asm ("pushl %eax"); asm ("pushl $emit_fmt"); asm ("movl $printf,%eax"); asm ("call *%eax"); 01:35:03 Nope. 01:35:09 * kc5tja was 'jet powered' for this session. 01:36:04 My stomach feels pretty stable as long as I don't push it too far too fast. 01:36:05 rofl 01:37:04 :) 01:39:48 ? 01:40:23 kc5tja : did you lit the afterburners ? 01:40:27 ;))))) 01:40:46 They were already lit, I can assure you. 01:47:09 once i caugh a cold and said : I have a nose leak ! 01:47:33 a fellow of mine said: Thank fate what not a stern leak ! 01:48:41 i like coinages, even in other languages ;)) 01:48:58 the ones what i recall easy are : 01:49:19 wreckonstruction, chewing-gun, hard-on pass 01:50:16 * imaginator has a sleep leak 01:50:41 I missed the Fedex guy yesterday, and he was bringing me a new hard disk. 01:51:17 So, my choices are to go to bed early and sleep on the couch just in case, or stay up all night and hope to be awake when he comes again. 01:51:30 * imaginator chose the latter 01:51:36 ;(( 01:51:52 * Serg prefers to have batteries in brain charged full 01:53:00 Hehe 01:54:20 * imaginator needs more batteries 01:54:22 i never kept up till dawn even for sex, only for inet-cafe few times ;))) 01:55:31 my record is 21.00 - 3.++ 01:55:37 ;) 01:58:46 Well, I'm going to try and sleep again. 01:58:53 My fever is making me rather tired. 01:59:11 I'll stay connected for the next time I wake up. :) 01:59:22 g'nite ! 01:59:38 g'night 02:04:13 morning! 02:04:14 :) 02:04:35 morning arke 02:04:41 :) 02:18:48 --- quit: ASau () 03:02:32 --- quit: Serg () 03:40:05 hey, anybody awake? 03:40:21 I am. I'm just quiet. 03:40:28 cool. 03:40:46 do you if off-clock cycle operations are possible? 03:41:37 I don't know. 03:41:42 heh. 03:41:54 do you know of a channel whose members might know? 03:45:17 --- join: qFox (C00K13S@cp12172-a.roose1.nb.home.nl) joined #forth 03:45:44 qFox: do you know if off-cycle calculations are possible in a clocked processor? 03:46:34 i just woke up :s 03:46:44 lol, sorry 03:47:16 ::) 03:47:21 no clue anyways 03:50:17 #osdev or #asm might know 04:55:21 --- join: Serg (~z@212.34.52.140) joined #forth 04:56:40 --- quit: chandler ("Reconnecting") 04:56:43 --- join: chandler (~chandler@64-145-60-36.client.dsl.net) joined #forth 05:06:25 --- quit: hovil ("Leaving") 05:46:45 * warpzero is back (gone 05:57:08) 06:01:42 --- quit: fridge (Remote closed the connection) 06:07:23 --- quit: proteusguy ("Leaving") 06:23:30 --- quit: Serg () 07:14:05 --- quit: ree (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 07:14:36 --- join: ree (~jwm@ns.fasthost.net) joined #forth 07:34:22 back in a bit. Shopping. 07:39:44 --- join: snowrichard (~richard@adsl-068-209-159-248.sip.shv.bellsouth.net) joined #forth 07:48:12 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving") 07:48:52 --- join: ASau (~asau@158.250.48.196) joined #forth 07:49:00 Dobryjj vecher! 07:49:30 Dutchboy voucher! 07:52:11 --- quit: ree ("EPIC4-1.1.12[524] - oblivion : owns even your finest mother.") 07:58:59 --- join: proteusguy (proteusguy@137.sub-166-153-177.myvzw.com) joined #forth 08:12:46 --- join: Nutssh (~Foo@gh-1081.gh.rice.edu) joined #forth 08:21:03 I'm back. 08:21:18 :) 08:21:30 Dobryjj vecher, kc5tja! 08:21:51 * kc5tja is recovering from a stomach flu. 08:24:04 ouch 08:24:25 Not food poisening from your solar cooking is it? ;) 08:25:05 haha 08:26:40 --- join: ree (~root@adsl-68-79-169-199.dsl.ipltin.ameritech.net) joined #forth 08:26:41 The oven isn't even finished. 08:35:10 terve 08:36:08 --- join: _proteus (proteusguy@128.sub-166-153-178.myvzw.com) joined #forth 08:46:43 --- quit: Nutssh ("Client exiting") 08:48:28 hey mur 08:49:46 mitä kuuluu? 08:49:48 --- join: downix (~downix@adsl-2-46-32.bct.bellsouth.net) joined #forth 08:51:31 re Downix 08:52:04 This sucks. Three slices of white bread is enough to fill me up. >:/ 08:52:04 hey 08:52:15 hey Downix 08:52:17 ltns 08:57:56 --- join: mrproteus (proteusguy@89.sub-166-153-177.myvzw.com) joined #forth 09:02:08 --- quit: proteusguy (Connection timed out) 09:03:57 hey ree! 09:04:15 ree, you're running as root, ya know 09:05:26 hehe 09:05:28 yeah I do 09:05:34 but is root uid 0? 09:05:36 :) 09:05:56 heh 09:06:31 --- nick: mrproteus -> proteusguy 09:10:10 so.. 09:10:18 have you been in contact with basicbsd? 09:10:19 hehe 09:10:31 hrm? 09:11:29 ahh, must go by a different name 09:14:18 I wonder where that guy went 09:14:25 The Jim Morrison clone 09:17:03 k 09:19:51 --- quit: _proteus (Connection timed out) 09:20:36 Damn, I wish I had my radio antenna set up some how... 09:21:02 * downix is laughing at the rukus over bbrv's statements as of late 09:22:21 ?? -- no idea what you're talking about. :) 09:22:38 Genesi won its lawsuit against AInc 09:22:54 What lawsuit is this? 09:23:33 Thendic Germany had a contract with AInc for AmigaDE on its product lines back in 2000. 09:23:40 AInc never delivered 09:23:46 the lawsuit was to enforce the contract 09:24:08 --- quit: ASau (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 09:24:43 I see. 09:24:50 The contract covered any and all updates to both sides 09:24:55 How does Thendic relate to Genesi though? 09:25:07 Genesi is the merger of Thendic and bPlan 09:25:16 Ahh 09:25:43 but Thendic France couldn't be merged due to some hijinks of its holding company. (embezzling assets, tax evasion by the previous management, etc) 09:25:44 ahh 09:25:50 still working on amiga stuff downix? 09:26:14 but the other 3 Thendics were not under that holding company, so they did finish the merger 09:26:20 ree: I work for Genesi 09:26:32 yeah 09:26:35 I heard about that 09:26:43 think they are going anywhere? 09:26:50 heh, nm 09:26:55 you work for them.. can't ask that :) 09:27:02 I'm a contractor 09:27:04 * kc5tja is thinking of quitting In-N-Out, to work on my embedded Linux development project exclusively. 09:27:06 I can say what I think 09:27:07 8) 09:27:22 and, Genesi has a better chance than many startups do 09:27:29 no guarantees, of course 09:28:24 Anyways, due to some statements from AInc's CEO, and the terms of the contract, Genesi could make life very difficult for Hyperion and their AmigaOS 4.0 project 09:28:58 kc5, free food or endless nights of hacking? 09:29:06 Man, they should have let me renovate AmigaOS like I originally wanted to. 09:29:15 ree: ?? 09:29:39 kc5tja: they should have let bPlan renovate AmigaOS like they'd originally wanted to. After all, even with having to clone the whole system, they got out. 09:29:48 erm, got it out 09:30:25 quitting in-n-out 09:31:01 free food @ in-n-out vs endless nights of hacking on your embedded linux 09:31:16 ree: Oh. It's more an economic decision than one involving personal preferences 09:31:56 what does your embedded linux do? 09:32:04 I have a project involving the Linux kernel as well 09:32:07 however, Genesi's plan is to, rather than push Hyperion out of the picture (which, due to the timing of both contracts they could do) is to re-license AOS4's development to Hyperion under a better licensing scheme. ($10 per copy over $20 it is now) 09:32:15 * kc5tja isn't writing an Embedded Linux. 09:32:26 * kc5tja is writing an app that will eventually run under an embedded Linux. 09:32:31 I cannot say what that app does. 09:33:13 commercial? 09:34:08 the only change is that OS4 has to run on a PowerPC standards architecture we've helped define with IBM and Motorola 09:34:19 end-result, Hyperion gets more potential customers 09:36:19 or, can end in litigation with potentially Hyperion loosing all rights to OS4 09:36:32 I'd rather not see that happen 09:39:01 Yes, it's commercial. 09:40:35 All because Amiga ignored a simple contract 09:40:59 Aren't the AmigaOne boards CHRP? They use the CHRP chipsets. 09:41:04 No 09:41:16 The Pegasos is CHRP, the AmigaONE isn't 09:41:30 the AmigaONE is a proprietory board design, doesn't follow any standard 09:41:44 Pegasos is a kind of superset over CHRP 09:41:44 hmm 09:42:10 the defined standard applies to this superset, also to a dev board by Motorola and 3 dev boards by IBM 09:42:39 One of the primary parts of CHRP is the use of OpenFirmware and an OpenPIC, the A1 lacks both of these. 09:43:00 that's why the A1 requires a custom Linux kernel to work 09:44:23 --- join: networm (~networm@L0649P22.dipool.highway.telekom.at) joined #forth 09:44:53 A1's boot-system is a GPL'd system called uBoot. (of course they have not released the source code to their updates, and it has been over a year now) 09:44:56 Hehe 09:45:10 and it uses a classic AT PIC 09:45:13 I knew about their boot software, but I wasn't aware about OpenPIC. 09:45:45 the original Peg also lacked an OpenPIC, hence why it also needed a kernel patch to work 09:46:03 the Peg II has an APIC, which can handle OpenPIC calls. 09:46:10 (If I recall correctly anyways) 09:46:43 brb, need to hit the shower 09:48:20 okies 09:48:25 * kc5tja is going to stay home from college today. 09:50:05 good luck with your project kc5 09:50:18 going to be modifying Linux much? 09:50:52 No. 09:51:00 At least, I hope not. 10:15:15 --- join: slava (~slava@CPE0080ad77a020-CM.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 10:15:17 hi everybody 10:15:38 re 10:15:58 hey slava 10:21:16 for some reason the xmms plugin for playing .ogg got blown away 10:24:05 hehe 10:24:15 perhaps vorbis got deleted? 10:24:41 libvorbis 10:24:57 no, the xmms port is broken, i'll install the latest one 10:27:10 what distribution? 10:27:24 I am running 1.2.10 10:27:28 version 10:28:01 freebsd 10:29:03 ahh 10:29:17 have you noticed the xmms theme download is broken? 10:29:19 at their site 10:29:47 I'm running the Xaw theme though 10:29:55 which looks just like vanilla X :) 10:29:57 i use the default theme :) 10:30:07 hehe 10:30:10 man that is ugly imo 10:30:28 yay it works 10:33:47 opengl can be tricky 10:33:52 damn gluOrtho2D :) 10:33:58 vvv,win 3 10:34:00 oops 10:35:17 vvv,win? 10:38:38 --- join: downix_ (~downix@adsl-153-75-18.bct.bellsouth.net) joined #forth 10:39:20 hehe 10:39:24 typed 3vs instead 10:39:26 er first 10:41:28 --- quit: downix (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 10:44:58 --- nick: downix_ -> Downix 10:45:02 hey 10:59:42 wb 11:00:01 Doggone it, I need to figure out how to get my ham rig back on the air. 11:17:07 --- join: Nutssh (~Foo@dunwlessnat.rice.edu) joined #forth 11:39:07 --- quit: ChanServ (Shutting Down) 11:39:41 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth 11:39:41 --- mode: irc.freenode.net set +o ChanServ 11:46:29 --- quit: ChanServ (ACK! SIGSEGV!) 11:54:42 --- quit: proteusguy ("Leaving") 12:07:36 --- quit: Nutssh ("Client exiting") 12:19:44 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth 12:19:44 --- mode: irc.freenode.net set +o ChanServ 13:03:42 Can anyone help distinguish between COMPILE and [COMPILE]? Which one compiles immediately, and which one defers compilation until execution of the parent word? 13:11:53 --- quit: ree (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 13:24:48 --- part: imaginator left #forth 13:26:04 madgarden: [COMPILE] compiles immediately, while COMPILE causes compilation only when the word is executed. 13:26:57 OK, thanks. The F83 spec is a bit ambiguous. 13:27:12 Now, trying to figure out how one would write COMPILE. 13:33:13 Well, I think I'm going to take a small nap again. 13:33:44 Put it back when you're done! 13:33:47 still trying to figure out the best way to get my HF rig on the air again. I might consider building a fractal antenna for the 40m band. Not sure yet though. 13:37:57 --- join: wossname (wossname@HSE-QuebecCity-ppp81421.qc.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 13:39:46 A fractal antenna sounds difficult to build. 13:47:18 It's not too difficult. 13:47:43 Stick to simple fractals, like a Koch curve, and stick to simple, wire antennas like a dipole. 13:48:57 How about just a tree branch or fern covered in tinfoil? 13:50:03 The antenna has to be resonant, and must be a reasonable distance away from electrically conductive things to radiate well. 13:50:57 :) 13:52:10 My problem is that I want to work 40m, 20m, and 10m bands, but don't have property for anything except a normal 10m antenna. 13:52:32 BUT, if I were to erect a 10m antenna, no matter where I put it, someone would get clotheslined if they didn't see the antenna. 13:52:43 An added benefit, I say! 13:52:54 Therefore, I need some kind of resonant, SMALL, antenna, that I can set up on a tripod or two in the front yard. 13:55:46 Does this look like it should work? 13:55:47 : compile ' ['] , execute ; immediate 13:58:26 Are you using direct threaded code for your Forth environment? 13:58:40 If so, why not just write : compile ' , ; immediate 13:59:17 It's ITC. 14:00:35 --- join: networm_ (~networm@L0626P22.dipool.highway.telekom.at) joined #forth 14:00:57 Close enough. :) 14:01:13 Yea, no native compilation here. 14:01:46 Another possibility, one which Pygmy uses, is to do something like this: 14:02:09 : compile r> dup cell+ >r @ , ; 14:02:32 But ' , would work just as well too. 14:02:45 Isn't that [compile] though? 14:03:38 Oh yeah. I forgot. In that case, your definition of COMPILE won't work. 14:03:41 You'd want this instead: 14:03:44 : [compile] ' , ; immediate 14:03:44 : compile ' ['] , ['] execute execute ; immediate 14:04:05 : COMPILE ' LITERAL ['] , , ; 14:04:07 or something. 14:04:19 --- quit: networm (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 14:04:30 Remember that execute executes its XT immediately. 14:04:48 Right. 14:04:48 hah, my double , , is in there :) 14:04:53 Hmm. 14:06:02 although.. used quite differently :) 14:06:36 I don't think that version of COMPILE words either. 14:06:44 Get an exception in FICL anyway. 14:06:47 b4_compile (B4 *self) 14:06:48 { 14:06:48 _push (B4_CODEWORD_COMPILE_EXEC); 14:06:48 b4_tick (self); 14:06:48 b4_comma (self); 14:06:50 b4_comma (self); 14:06:52 } 14:06:58 --- nick: networm_ -> networm 14:07:17 at least, my C code should work.. 14:08:43 DUHH... 14:09:15 if I use a square Koch curve of two iterations, with each element 1m long, then I get a 25m long antenna, which is pretty much ideal for 40m work. 14:09:42 20m is ideal, of course, but considering how low it'll be to the ground and various other losses, the difference of 20m and 25m will be easily absorbed by the antenna tuner. 14:36:46 --- quit: wossname ("bbl") 14:37:25 --- join: wossname (wossname@HSE-QuebecCity-ppp81421.qc.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 14:52:00 HERE should give me the address of the CELL being currently compiled in compilation mode, correct? 14:55:30 yep, that's what it does in B4 at least 14:57:21 --- join: Nutssh (~Foo@gh-1177.gh.rice.edu) joined #forth 15:25:20 --- quit: Robert (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 15:26:52 --- join: Robert (~snofs@c-8f5a71d5.17-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) joined #forth 15:27:15 --- quit: ChanServ (ACK! SIGSEGV!) 15:29:35 kc5tja: hey, you there? 15:37:08 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth 15:37:08 --- mode: irc.freenode.net set +o ChanServ 15:39:08 --- quit: Downix (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 15:39:21 --- join: ree (~root@adsl-68-79-169-199.dsl.ipltin.ameritech.net) joined #forth 15:54:30 : compile 15:54:30 r> dup 1 cells + >r ( skip next word after COMPILE for execution) 15:54:30 @ , ( compile the word we're skipping into current definition!) 15:54:30 ; 15:54:33 I get it now! 15:54:42 This is actually what I did in Forthy, heh. 15:55:06 --- join: Downix (~downix@adsl-158-112-15.mia.bellsouth.net) joined #forth 15:55:55 arke: More or less. 15:56:41 Now that my stomach has settled down, now I have the vestiges of sore muscles and headaches to deal with. 15:56:45 Hmm, hamburger and eggs for supper. kc5tja, want some? It'll settle your stomach! 15:56:58 No thank you. 15:58:23 ;) 15:58:39 Well, I hope you get some nice cake down today. 15:58:50 nope 15:59:00 Self-impose liquid diet. 15:59:07 Jello and apple sauce is it. 16:01:33 Well, you can postpone digestive compilation of cake until later, then! 16:13:05 --- quit: Downix (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 16:13:25 --- join: Downix (~downix@adsl-153-64-53.bct.bellsouth.net) joined #forth 16:18:34 --- quit: networm ("Client exiting") 16:20:31 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@216.27.161.121) joined #forth 16:21:29 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 16:21:51 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@216.27.161.121) joined #forth 16:34:02 --- join: Sonarman (~matt@adsl-64-160-166-19.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 16:35:05 Sonarman: hi matt 16:35:09 hi 16:35:16 kc5tja: got several things to ask you :) 16:35:31 Sonarman: that as i lay dying song is good, not as good as penumbra though 16:35:59 okay. 16:36:28 kc5tja: (1) does the 6502 have IO instructions? 16:36:49 No. The 6502 uses memory-mapped I/O -- e.g., I/O registers are treated no differently from memory locations. 16:36:54 i'm glad you like it, arke 16:36:55 kc5tja: or memory-mapped IO which doesn't cause massive blocks on simultaneous access? 16:36:59 Sonarman: :) 16:37:08 Sonarman: sounds kinda like an adult crying for his mom ... lol 16:37:15 lol :) 16:37:30 :) 16:37:33 Whether or not it causes blocks depends on the I/O device in question. 16:38:17 kc5tja: well, in this case, it doesn't really matter. Can you spare a few bytes of memory? 16:38:31 hey arke 16:38:35 hi ree 16:38:38 arke: For what? 16:38:49 ree: listen to what I'm gonna suggest after I'm done with this 6502 stuff. 16:38:51 --- quit: Downix (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 16:39:07 kc5tja: send instructions to a separate 6502 which does rendering. 16:39:49 It doesn't help. 16:39:55 The 6502 is still dog slow. 16:40:03 (for graphically-related updates) 16:40:10 but it ran mario ^___~ >:( 16:40:29 yeah, but this would take off lots of the load of the other, forth-running 6502, right? 16:40:31 wossname: With a screen resolution of 320x200, with at most 16 colors, yes. 16:40:39 what the heck are you writing, kc5tja? 16:40:41 wossname: For my ForthBox concept, that isn't acceptable to me. 16:40:54 ah, a magical forth machine. tell me some details or link a site 16:40:57 I personally really enjoy 320x200 16:41:11 demos @ 320x200 for example can be neat 16:41:13 arke: The problem is keeping both processors busy. 16:41:28 ree: Too bad it's not all about demos. 16:41:31 And in reality, that's rare. Most Forth programs are so I/O bound that the added cost of another 6502 is questionable. 16:41:43 kc5tja? tell me details~ :( ?? 16:42:05 Robert, what else could it be about? :) 16:42:10 are you trying to push /higher/ resolution graphics? 16:42:30 wossname: http://www.falvotech.com/cgi/fsforth/ForthBoxComputer 16:42:40 ree: IRC. 16:42:42 ;) 16:42:48 :) 16:42:48 wossname: Yes. 640x480 with 256 colors. 16:43:14 kc5tja: how does the 65816 perform compared to the 6502? 16:43:53 arke: It's about twice as fast, being a 16-bit processor; but it's still rather slow compared to a dedicated vector processor. 16:44:09 that requires more than 4 times the addressing space the 6502 has :(* 16:44:31 wossname: I am not using the 6502. I'm using the 65816. 16:45:08 ah. i just got the impression from what little chat log i've seen 16:45:35 is the 6502 for use in the ArkeBox, then? ~ 16:46:52 Heheh :) 16:47:00 That I don't know. 16:47:26 640x480x8, my preferred graphics mode! :D 16:47:31 For games, anyway. 16:47:56 My mode has a fixed palette: rrmgggbb -- where bit 0 of blue and red are shared. 16:48:08 Thus, it's a true 256 color palette, but it covers the entire color spectrum. 16:48:13 kc5tja: well, you could use dual 65816 :) 16:48:21 It should be more than sufficient for simple games and for the tasks I will use it for. 16:48:31 it'll be the new amiga ;D~ 16:48:52 kc5tja: IRC and web browsing .. you don't need multitasking, really... 16:48:53 arke: Sorry, but no. :) 16:48:56 in the meantime, i'll be writing my 6502 lisp machine. so there. :~ 16:49:09 arke: You do; the TCP/IP stack depends on multitasking to function. 16:49:18 I wanna write a 6502 text-based IRC client :) 16:50:36 it's been done, i think, arke 16:50:42 arke: lng.sf.net 16:50:44 What's this Forthbox going to look like... a little palmtop? 16:50:53 that would be sweet 16:51:09 heh 16:51:10 RCA outputs so you can plug 'er into the TV. :D 16:51:12 waste of freaking time 16:51:25 ree: what ?~ 16:51:37 writing irc clients 16:51:48 100029289852 billion clients are available 16:52:17 tons of scientific projects to do and all people come up with is "I want to run irc on that!" 16:52:21 :P 16:52:25 make me mad 16:52:33 perhaps we should all collaborate on a new seriousness detector for ree 16:52:35 madgarden: ForthBox's main PC board will probably fit in a pizza-box. 16:52:40 well, I meant IRC terminal :) 16:52:41 he already has one but it is broken 16:52:46 heh 16:52:56 yes, upgrade yours while you are at it :) 16:54:37 kc5tja, pizza box... that would make a cool laptop! :D 16:54:53 It will not be a palmtop -- it will have a VGA port with which you plug in a VGA monitor to. 16:54:53 the world needs more good palmtops 16:54:53 * kc5tja cannot afford to make a palmtop. 16:54:54 However, a 320x240 color display for a palmtop would not be out of the question. 16:54:57 The keyboard for it would be, though. 16:55:32 yee 16:55:39 i don't understand your display format 16:55:57 you have an 8-bit pixel description but claim a palette of 512 colors 16:56:05 wossname: It's 'quarter-VGA' -- normal VGA is 640x480. 16:56:22 wossname: Finding a 320x200 LCD is MUCH harder than finding a 320x240 LCD display. 16:56:48 wossname: No, I have an 8-bit pixel description, but claim 256 colors. :) 16:57:01 Fixed palette of 256 colors out of a palette of 512 16:57:16 Right. 16:57:19 ~~ :( ?? 16:57:31 I have a fixed palette (e.g., you cannot change the palette) of 256 colors. 16:57:40 what's this "out of 512" business 16:57:55 But since the red, green, and blue guns are driven by three bits each (the least significant bit of red and blue are shared), the total *conceptual* number of colors is 512. 16:58:52 they are? 16:59:05 geeze. always thought it was 6 bits per gun 16:59:08 That's why it's called the 'magenta' bit. 16:59:15 No. 16:59:26 6 bits would yeild a total palette size of 262,144 colors. 16:59:27 er, i understand what you mean now 16:59:31 4 bits yeilds 4096 colors. 16:59:35 i thought standard vga systems 16:59:35 3 bits yields 512 colors. 16:59:57 you've cut the color resolution in half ;o 17:00:12 The VGA monitor is an analog monitor. 17:00:22 It doesn't care about how many bits per gun you use. 17:00:54 i'm just remembering my days of shooting bytes to the vga card in dos 17:00:58 geesh 17:01:00 And, yes, I am cutting the color depth in half. 17:01:20 This was a deliberate decision. It *greatly* simplifies (read CHEAPER) the hardware. :) 17:01:44 Especially since the 65816, despite being a 16-bit CPU, still excels at moving individual bytes. 17:02:01 Video memory bandwidth is already an issue with the 65816 using 8-bit pixels, let alone 16-bit pixels. :) 17:04:35 red and blue, red and blue. watching compressed video off your chip will be quite fun 17:05:36 I've done some tests in GIMP; 256 colors with a magenta bit is virtually no different from a true 512 color display. 17:05:53 256 colors with a proper 2 bits for blue gun produces a markedly inferior display. 17:07:17 i can believe it. just that pure red and blue do poorly when it comes to colors 17:07:34 actually, i'd like to watch a video using your pixel format ~ 17:07:39 Actually, you don't really notice the difference. 17:07:41 i bet it would look interesting 17:07:49 Heh 17:08:07 kc5tja: how would you get pure red or blue though? 17:08:09 Unfortunately, my box isn't designed for that field of application. It's primarily designed for Internet use and general purpose Forth hacking. 17:08:15 arke: You don't. 17:08:33 kc5tja: thought so. 17:09:13 The eye is least sensitive first to blue, then to red. 17:09:27 Thus, pure red will look exactly like pure red (I've tried it). 17:09:38 :D 17:09:44 that's a quote to save 17:09:46 Pure blue looks vaguely magenta, but only vaguely. 17:10:03 This is because your eye is only 10% sensitive to blue, 30% sensitive to red. 17:10:35 in other words, your eyes suck 17:10:49 No. 17:10:56 All humans have that basic profile. 17:11:19 Our sensitivity to green and the fact that plants reflect green light are not coincidences. 17:11:53 Early in human history, we were herbavores (note the lack of well-developed canine teeth in favor of molars in our jaws). 17:12:31 --- quit: ree ("bbiab") 17:13:29 i meant `your' in the wide, all-humanity aspect 17:13:50 kc5tja: cool stuff. 17:14:09 --- join: LOOPHOG (jdamisch@207.191.240.233) joined #forth 17:14:10 kc5tja: I wanna buy a forth box once you make one. 17:14:13 i realize that red and blue need less information to store properly; ~ 17:14:19 kc5tja: just gimme the plain forthbox, i can do the rest 17:14:22 Heh 17:14:25 (i.e. turn it into an IRC terminal) 17:14:28 At the rate I'm going now, it'll be awhile. 17:14:29 is it a true forth box 17:14:32 what is it? 17:14:51 LOOPHOG: http://www.falvotech.com/cgi/fsforth/ForthBoxComputer 17:14:51 LOOPHOG: well, its a CISC cpu running forth :) 17:14:59 kc5tja has a website somewhere.. 17:15:03 oh yeah, there 17:15:08 arke: did you check lng.sf.net? 17:15:23 that's the silliest system on earth, you can't beat it 17:15:41 there's no need for your "irc in forth on forthbox" thing, as there is a more ridiculous system in existence 17:17:02 up to 32 tasks, lol 17:17:13 i might get a ForthBox, i would need to check it over though 17:18:02 LUnix is about as powerful as the original Unix. 17:18:17 * kc5tja notes the original Unix was designed for the PDP-7, which had a monsterous memory capacity of 64KB too. 17:18:19 don't doubt it 17:18:24 must be fun to mess with. 17:19:28 * kc5tja would probably sell the ForthBox only as a kit, since I can't afford to get FCC type certification, or to have plastic injected-molded case made for it. 17:19:39 Indeed, my own ForthBox is probably going to reside in a pizza box. 17:20:02 lol 17:20:08 :) 17:20:10 kc5tja: question. 17:20:23 Speak. 17:20:27 how about a classic wooden case? 17:20:33 kc5tja: I made up a system which is kinda like pipelines but eliminates some of its weaknessed. 17:20:51 kc5tja: I call it a threaded execution architecture 17:21:22 kc5tja: basically, an instruction is decoded, register blocks are assigned, then placed in a superpipeline 17:21:25 wossname: I've considered it. I'm not sure about it yet. 17:21:39 kc5tja: well, not really pipeline 17:21:41 arke: Give me some background. What problem are you trying to solve with this? 17:21:46 kc5tja: its more of a "station" 17:22:16 kc5tja: you know how a pipeline stall stalls the WHOLE pipeline 17:22:29 kc5tja: and how memory stalls will do the same? 17:23:30 Yes. 17:23:31 --- join: blockhead (default@dialin-1007-tnt.nyc.bestweb.net) joined #forth 17:23:47 hi 17:24:42 Man, everyone who walks by my house looks at my car like they've never seen an RX-7 before. :) 17:24:42 kc5tja: well, its stupid. 17:24:51 kc5tja: heh, i'd love an RX-7 :) 17:24:53 kc5tja: but anyway 17:25:18 i got to see the inside of a prius 2 a few days ago 17:25:21 kc5tja: when an instruction enters, its sent to an available station. 17:25:38 LOOPHOG: Those are sweet cars. I like them too. 17:25:43 it had a color computer screen as well as a automobile dash 17:25:52 kc5tja: there, it resides for the next few cycles until its done. 17:26:19 kc5tja: this eliminates several problems. 17:26:37 the Insite trys to combine the dash and computer screen to create a weird looking dash, the dash for the prius looked normal to me 17:27:11 kc5tja: register blocks are dealt with more gracefully --- everything else still executes on as if nothing happened. the only stalling here is for the instruction that tries to use the blocked register. 17:27:25 arke: Sounds like superscalar architecture to me. 17:27:37 Many DSPs already use that architecture. 17:27:40 then, at the end, its all fed out in the correct order, one instruction per cycle at a time. 17:27:44 kc5tja: oh FUCK! 17:27:50 kc5tja: I came up with that myself too :( 17:27:53 Hehe :) 17:28:03 Get used to disappointment -- I've done that for years, and still do it today. 17:28:10 That's why I see no future in the field of computer science. 17:28:16 but its an awesome idea, right? 17:28:24 it beats the hell out of pipelining. 17:28:28 I've already thought of everything other folks have, which means I'm WAY behind the curve for my ability to make a positive impact on it. 17:28:53 I'd rather do both: pipelining PLUS superscalar is a very powerful concept. 17:29:42 hows that work? 17:30:03 Each station has its own set of registers, AND its own pipeline. 17:32:03 !!! 17:32:21 that would be hardware multi-tasking 17:32:23 That's how most DSPs are implemented. 17:32:28 Not quite. :) 17:32:33 It's what most CPUs use today. 17:32:53 er... 17:32:55 wow 17:32:58 Only general purpose CPUs can arbitrate the register file across all the execution units, instead of banking several registers per pipeline. 17:33:03 what a huge amount of registers 17:33:22 er, transistors 17:33:31 Yep. 17:33:36 If you do that, go ahead and do hardware multitasking 17:33:38 That's why I prefer stack architectures whenever possible. 17:33:59 I don't think theres a processor out there with instant hardware multitasking... 17:34:33 how about like 16 32bit cells for the data stack and return stack 17:34:42 as registers 17:36:31 I got alot of cool processor ideas 17:36:39 I also got an idea for off-clock calculations 17:36:40 i have a few 17:36:58 ideal for TTA architectures 17:37:02 what if you wanted to make a MONSTER Forth CPU, not a MISC chip? 17:37:10 moves are performed on-clock, triggers performed off-clock 17:37:25 LOOPHOG: I could probably come up with a pretty sweet one 17:37:34 128bit or 256bit databus, make Chuck upchukc 17:37:37 128bit or 256bit databus, make Chuck upchuck 17:37:43 oh yeah 17:37:48 arke: Got one better than that -- an asynchronous logic TTA. 17:38:02 I don't know why x86 has such relatively small buses... 17:38:07 kc5tja: oh yeah, thats even better :) 17:38:12 history, arke? ~ 17:38:21 wossname: heh :) 17:38:24 what do they got now? 17:38:28 the newest one? 17:38:32 8 general purpose registers. 17:38:35 ~~! 17:38:36 (assuming the motherboard supports it) 17:38:41 i meant bus width 17:38:45 maybe you could have the processor be switchable between bus sizes, but it would be set in the die 17:38:46 forget bus width 17:38:50 yeah, they need to dump the whole damn thing 17:38:52 8 general purpose registers 17:38:57 /EIGHT~/~ 17:39:00 yes 17:39:02 Actually, Intel has ceded to AMD -- all new Pentiums made by Intel are now x86-64 compatible. 17:39:03 eight 17:39:10 --- join: fridge (~fridge@dsl-203-33-163-92.NSW.netspace.net.au) joined #forth 17:39:17 So we can now safely say that all new x86 CPUs, by both AMD and Intel, have 16 GPRs. :) 17:39:17 ok, SIXTEEN 17:39:17 kc5tja: cool, but.. 17:39:21 ;D 17:39:31 kc5tja: thats still old piece of shit CISC 17:39:35 Hey, I think that that's a huge improvement. 17:39:35 CISC is dead my friends :) 17:39:39 kc5tja: true lol 17:39:42 well, it is a huge improvement 17:39:55 it'd be nicer to have 32 or 64 registers, plus a register stack 17:40:09 wossname: Use Itanium then. :) 17:40:19 ah, itanium is going to die a lonely death now :( 17:40:23 amd snookered them good 17:40:37 Yep. 17:40:45 Aaacks. 17:40:46 Which is precisely why CISC isn't dead. 17:40:56 kc5tja: oh, its obsolete, it'll die soon. 17:41:05 Buy a ton of transistors and a few pounds of solder... 17:41:06 arke: When? 17:41:07 arke: like windows? 17:41:44 kc5tja: with the amount of transistors they got, they can't reach the clockspeeds comparative RISCS and Stack archs have (not to mention the inferior design of the instruction set) 17:41:51 windows isn't such a terrible operating system. 17:41:52 "Remember that Forth use IS Forth Abuse" Bill Gates 17:41:55 there, i said it. 17:42:28 wossname: its not the worst. but it certainly needs to be dumped. except for the graphics backsystem, because its very good. 17:42:33 LOOPHOG: What? 17:42:42 just kidding ;^) 17:42:55 "graphics backsystem"? 17:43:01 yeah, he got the quote wrong 17:43:04 grahics cards? 17:43:04 LOOPHOG: I was wondering. I thought it was a real quote -- I was going to ask for a reference so I could put it on my site. :) 17:43:08 DirectX? 17:43:09 it wasn't bill gates, it was kurt kobain 17:43:14 oh 17:43:22 * blockhead snickers 17:43:36 kurt kobain wrote unix, right? 17:43:40 yep 17:43:51 while on acid 17:43:58 "nobody will ever need more than 640k" - kurt kobain 17:44:04 So the name 'bash' for the shell isn't so inappropriate then... :) 17:44:12 no, that was elvis 17:44:21 I thought Elvis wrote elvis. 17:44:44 no, he created the difference engine 17:44:49 Ahh 17:45:02 lol 17:45:02 Well, I know for a fact that Steve Miller wrote SendMail... 17:45:14 word 17:45:18 the pope write XFree 17:45:19 aaclsqfkl g 17:45:30 which is why its so horrible 17:45:30 akjfak;jb 17:45:34 17:37 < arke> LOOPHOG: I could probably come up with a pretty sweet one 17:45:34 Yep. 17:45:34 17:37 < arke> LOOPHOG: I could probably come up with a pretty sweet one 17:45:43 Couldn't agree more. 17:45:51 And U2 wrote WindowMaker. 17:47:16 --- quit: qFox ("if at first you dont succeed, quit again") 17:47:17 sorry about the pastes 17:47:40 what would a **MONSTER** Forth CPU look like? 17:47:46 sigfried made emacs 17:47:51 it sucks, just like him. 17:47:57 seinfeld made mac OS 17:48:04 LOOPHOG: its got big teeth? 17:48:15 Its a MO-FO 17:48:24 LOL 17:48:27 you could invision it and it would be appropriate 17:50:14 256 bit bus, but with 8bit instuructions, would be like 32 instructions per fetch 17:50:35 then maybe you could execute 32 instructions in a single clock cycle 17:50:55 then you could inport a high level Forth word in a single clock cycle 17:51:14 a word would be a word 17:51:42 sounds like a monster truck to me 17:51:49 cool stuffs 17:52:56 Haha 17:53:01 i'm sure there are zillions of processor ideas out there 17:53:06 I can just see the new INtel ads... 17:53:10 SUNDAY SUNDAY SUNDAYYY!!!! 17:53:11 ;D 17:53:47 lol 17:54:04 kc5tja that was hilarious 17:54:45 i don't get it.. 17:55:05 arke: monster truck show ads are like that 17:55:38 Sunday sunday sunday at the COW Palacccceeee!! 17:55:47 oh 17:55:49 lol 17:55:49 ok 17:55:51 ... 17:56:18 time to get corn dogs and popcorn now 17:56:58 also i would like the byte instructions to be high level Forth words, like @ and ! and IF, etc 17:57:01 enjoy your CAR CRUSHING METAL EATING ACTIONNNNN 17:57:25 LOOPHOG: And have 32 of them per clock cycle? Dream on. :) 17:57:50 But I admit that 0.1 TIPS would be kind of interesting to play with. 17:57:54 it would be a 17 kHz processor 17:58:16 24ghz 17:58:42 Robert: heh, I got a design that spits out 1-8 instructions per cycle 17:59:32 :) 18:00:24 its really neat too.. 18:00:35 i need to split 18:00:38 --- quit: LOOPHOG () 18:00:54 each cycle, it tries to read in 8 instructions and put it into stations. 18:01:05 I don't know how it would do that in one cycle, but its a thought. 18:01:16 VLIW does that every cycle every time. 18:01:17 :) 18:01:23 kc5tja: !!! 18:01:26 very fast stack access. vaaarry, varrry fast 18:01:27 Whether or not you have 8 instructions to dispatch like that, however, is another matter all together. :) 18:01:37 heh 18:01:51 { nop, nop, nop, nop, nop, nop, nop nop } am i rite 18:02:09 well, the reason I have kinda been staying away from multi-reads is because I want that superior branch prediction I've talked about 18:04:33 There we go. WWV coming in like it was next door!! :) 18:04:58 Frequency? 18:05:17 10.000000MHz 18:05:27 omg i'm going to listen in on my imaginary radio 18:06:03 hay i got a shortwave radio. will this do the trick? 18:06:25 What is it broadcasting? 18:06:34 oh my fucking god I'm gonna die i swear GOOGLE IS DOWN!!! WE'RE ALL FUCKED!!! SAVE YOURSELVES!!! 18:06:53 google.ca is up 18:06:53 ^__^ 18:07:01 your dns is fucked, maybe 18:07:05 oh *phew* 18:07:10 Google works for me just fine. 18:07:23 er, google.ca ain't working either .... o.O 18:07:37 Yes, a shortwave receiver would work. But depending on where you live, you might not get it due to antenna issues. 18:07:41 use the direct ip: 216.239.39.99 18:07:42 but yahoo works :( 18:07:50 kc5tja: I can't hear a thing. 18:07:52 thanks blockhead :) 18:08:12 whats the OS X font? 18:09:33 carbon? chicago? 18:11:05 Well, THAT sucks. 18:11:15 My computer is making weird noises whenever I key up on 5W on the ham rig. 18:11:46 your computer is a shortwave reciever I guess :D 18:11:58 Hehe. 18:12:04 :) 18:12:19 I don't know, but I know that it can't possibly be too healthy. 18:12:23 It still seems to work though. 18:12:23 is everything grounded? 18:12:29 Man that sucks. :( 18:13:02 kc5tja: Linux 2.6 makes my computer make weird noises. 18:13:31 * kc5tja might have to change the setup of his room again to change the location of his power supply. 18:13:39 Maybe that's causing the problem. 18:13:39 --- join: gilbertbsd (~gilbert@fl-nked-ubr2-c3a-37.miamfl.adelphia.net) joined #forth 18:13:49 aloha folks. 18:14:00 Hi 18:14:07 It appears to be a cooling fan that's picking up the power. 18:14:21 disable the cooling fan. you didn't need it anyway 18:14:54 you just get a little more cooling when you're keyed up :-) 18:16:04 I hope it's not arcing. 18:16:09 Arcing would be bad juju. 18:16:23 bzzap! 18:16:39 Interestingly enough, the more power I pump out of the radio, the less it buzzes. 18:16:59 At 5W it's obnoxious. At 30W, it's imperceptible. 18:17:35 :) 18:17:48 I think it's time to start investing in some serious grounding technology. 18:18:12 or, to get yourself an IRC terminal 18:18:21 are the radio and the computer plugged into the same wall outlet? 18:18:26 Hrm. 18:18:41 blockhead: No, but I'm fairly certain it's the same circuit from the breaker box. 18:18:47 'k 18:18:51 Anybody know how much power a Sparc uses compared to a PC? 18:18:54 []head 18:18:56 :)) 18:19:07 --- nick: blockhead -> []head 18:19:08 re gilbertbsd -- sorry, didn't see you join. 18:19:11 <[]head> cool 18:19:19 :) 18:19:21 heheh. just lurking. 18:19:47 <[]head> my nick is now partially asci-art-ified :D 18:19:57 []:-) 18:20:04 <[]head> woa 18:20:11 --- nick: []head -> [] 18:20:29 --- nick: [] -> []head 18:20:32 <[]head> does't work 18:20:35 musing idly the other day ... instead of ye olde programs = algorithms + datasctructures ... a forthy version could be: algorithms datastructures + . 18:20:37 doh 18:20:40 :) 18:20:51 i'm not gonna bell the cat yet so ... dun ask :> 18:21:13 As soon as my rig is set up the way I like, I'm going to interface it to the 'puter, and write some simple Forth scripts for driving it. 18:21:44 forth needs newbies... newbies don't know they need forth :-? 18:22:01 what do you think does more bad power stuffs, (and uses more power), UsparcI or PC w/AMD 1.2ghz 18:22:39 usparc1 == risc (hopefully it's cooler). amd == cisc. and at 1.2ghz (whoever needs to travel that fast) means hot. 18:22:40 no? 18:22:58 true .. :) 18:23:03 I'd say the AMD would have more power dissipation, due to the more aggressive pipelining 18:23:33 generally speaking the larger the number of stages in your pipeline, the more wasted heat you will generate shuffling instructions through the CPU 18:23:42 this is why Intel is having such severe problems right now 18:23:44 tr00 18:24:00 hmmm. 18:24:08 well, maybe they should slow down with their superpipelining and go with an alternative 18:24:23 such as threaded execution 18:24:31 who needs that spead _ne ways_? 18:24:35 I don't think they care 18:24:41 their mobile chip is really an enhanced PIII 18:25:06 of course intel don't care 18:25:23 they didn't even have the decency to mention their compatibility with amd64 18:25:27 gilbert: i'm not satistfied until i can: wossname $ ./bigbang 18:25:27 which is what I call it. 18:25:42 hehehe. 18:25:45 arke: I believe it /is/ wholly compatibility 18:25:47 oh, nevermind 18:25:49 I misread you 18:25:52 yes, they are bastards 18:26:02 indeed. 18:26:05 linus agrees. 18:27:26 gilbertbsd: I need the speed for the AI stuff I do; essentially it will take an infinite amount of time and having more CPU or memory just increases the size of the data set I can process 18:27:39 AI stuff? 18:28:03 get a connection machine or rent space on a CRAY :D 18:29:41 haha, don't I wish 18:29:47 but I think my G5 is good enough 18:30:00 fancy fancy. 18:30:18 what kinda ai stuff btw? 18:30:39 lately concept-making for case based reasoning 18:30:46 http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~bmastenb/ 18:31:03 the paper at the Genetic and Evolutionary Computing Conference is most relevant 18:31:20 indiana aye? 18:31:22 Hrm. 18:31:26 you know what 18:31:36 home of Smullyan/Friedman/Hofstadter. 18:31:37 I just had another one of my grand ideas 18:31:50 arke quick: spill it out for clog. 18:32:43 on a conditional branch, if it doesn't know if the branch happens or no, it'll guess it does, until it knows for certain. 18:32:45 gilbertbsd: actually I work with David Leake (student of Roger Schank, editor-in-chief of AI Magazine) 18:32:50 and you left out Dybvig too 18:32:54 :-) 18:32:57 if you know that on a block, it'll guess true, then optimization is easy. 18:32:57 :) 18:33:05 chandler, have you read eopl btw? 18:33:11 gilbertbsd: both editions 18:33:18 is it good? 18:33:23 i'm considering getting a copy. 18:33:27 it's a great book on writing interpreters 18:33:32 hmmm. i see. 18:33:48 nono, I didn't mean to say it was not useful 18:33:51 is it a difficult book to read? 18:34:03 no, I don't think so 18:34:15 btw is smullyan on your campus? 18:34:19 i think he's a GOD! 18:34:28 IU's site says emeritus 18:34:51 so he's wandered off somewhere and they wish him well :-/ 18:34:55 yeah 18:35:35 it could be worse. He could be a Hofstadter (you KNOW he's on the campus, you run into his students, but you see him maybe three times a year at official functions) 18:35:43 hehehe. 18:35:48 or a Chomsky for that matter :D 18:36:00 well, if I saw Chomsky, I'd just shoot him, right then and there 18:36:04 :O 18:36:07 so maybe that's a good thing 18:36:09 what on EARTH for? 18:36:20 don't like his politics :D 18:36:39 he's an advocate of critical thinking. I like that. 18:36:52 there is a line between critical thinking and relativism / moral equivalence 18:37:05 a long time ago he used to just be about critical thinking 18:37:19 but these days he has lost his credibility and become part of the unwashed semi-deconstructionist left 18:37:34 i think he's uber cool. http://chomsky.info 18:38:27 er, I know what his web site is. I just don't like it. :-) 18:38:51 just reminding you ;) 18:41:15 Chomsky's assessment of the media and its role today is spot-on. 18:41:27 thank you sir. 18:41:45 unfortunately, not enough people think that at all. 18:41:50 And I've not seen anything from him that is somehow 'deconstructionalist.' (The word makes no sense anyway.) 18:41:54 heheh. not enough people THINK period. 18:42:02 Exactly. 18:42:14 Chomsky has always been, and always will be, about critical thinking. 18:44:22 --- quit: wossname ("<3~") 18:44:34 i have a great deal of respect for him. i only wish there were a few more like him. 18:44:56 neil postman (until his demise) was quite good as well. 18:46:20 chandler, have you read L.I.S.P. by quiennec as well? 18:46:36 kc5tja: first of all, you have an extra "al" in there - do you know what deconstructionism is? 18:46:52 chandler: I've never heard the term until you posted it. 18:47:06 ok. it is the school of modern literary analysis founded by Jacques Derrida 18:47:38 which has played a huge influence in the philosophy of leftist intellectualism 18:47:57 --- part: []head left #forth 18:48:00 OK, so now you're casting virtually the entire left-wing as somehow being evil. 18:48:03 Just for thinking differently. 18:48:36 I am not; I support independent left-wing intellectuals such as Alan Sokal 18:49:04 what I do not support is the deconstructionist theories that now comprise much of the foundation of the academic social sciences 18:49:18 Can you cite an example of one such theory? 18:49:40 er, just google on deconstructionism. It is a very large field. 18:49:55 I am using "theory" to refer to literary theory 18:50:04 which is a mode of literary criticism, not the same thing as a scientific theory 18:50:05 the academic social sciences? 18:50:12 heheh. they're PSEUDO sciences 18:50:13 :)) 18:50:50 I found a few sites, and so far, they're not helping to clear up what it exactly is. 18:51:03 That is typical. 18:51:16 kc5tja, they're all full of crap excellent intro: http://www.info.ucl.ac.be/people/PVR/decon.html 18:52:06 see also the Sokal hoax and Neil Postman's excellent "Building a Bridge to the 18th Century" 18:52:22 heheh. 18:52:30 sokal hoax is mentioned on http://skepdic.com 18:52:35 excellent excellent. 18:52:46 there's a link to his hoax from there. 18:53:00 OK, but I really don't see how this is at all relavent. 18:53:11 Noone can refute America's quest for global domination of oil reserves. 18:53:34 Noone can refute the implicit censorship of today's media. 18:53:35 gilbertbsd: would you agree with the statement that (regarding Sept 11th) "The terrorist attacks were major atrocities. In scale they may not reach the level of many others, for example, Clinton?s bombing of the Sudan with no credible pretext, destroying half its pharmaceutical supplies and killing unknown numbers of people" 18:54:10 or that "the major policy goal of the US has been to maximize repression and suffering in the countries that were devastated by our violence. The degree of the cruelty is quite astonishing." 18:54:32 is there a falsity somewhere? 18:54:42 I can definitely agree with the first quote. 18:54:50 hah 18:55:07 I don't agree with the second; I feel that any residual repression that exists stems from our capitalist pretexts. 18:55:19 --- join: ASau (~asau@158.250.48.196) joined #forth 18:56:00 OK. and the fact that the sudan bombing was not a terrorist attack, but rather a response aimed at a biological weapons facility, run by a state sponsor of terrorism, in response to terrorist attacks... makes no difference? 18:56:25 chandler, when was the last time you saw a sudanese anywhere on US Soil? 18:56:27 and the fact that it was conducted at night, when nobody was working? 18:56:29 A biological weapons facility that was later discovered to not be a weapons factory, but rather, a pharmecutical(sp?) factory. 18:56:36 gilbertbsd: the attacks occured against US embassies 18:56:36 the lost boys of sudan and Manute BOl aside ? 18:56:54 yeah, under who's auspicies? 18:56:58 the weary sudanese??? 18:57:00 i think not! 18:57:12 gilbertbsd: ah. so perhaps the right thing to do would have been to invade sudan. 18:57:23 :-/ 18:57:30 what the hell for? 18:58:00 chandler, Chinese embassy in Serbia? 18:58:04 Obviously they are "weary" and being oppressed by their government... 18:58:15 Oh yeah, the accident that wasn't. :) 18:58:44 and I suppose the hijackers were really aiming for a military facility 18:59:10 <--- got lots on his way back from the Sahara 18:59:18 s/lots/lost 18:59:23 Yeah. What hijackers are you referring to? 18:59:30 kc5tja: the September 11th hijackers 18:59:40 my goal is not to defend the US's mistakes 18:59:43 Well, no, they were patently aiming for the towers. 18:59:47 It was well known and publicized. 19:00:16 Those hijackings were symbolic, not military, in its goals. 19:00:17 but rather to draw attention to the moral equivalence that Chomsky makes between our failures and Al Qaeda's successes 19:00:33 hehhe chandler who is to say the pilots didn't ram the buildings themselves? methinks they just checked the flight list for all young arab males on board and declared them the suspects. 19:00:36 You lost me. 19:01:12 If America hadn't gotten involved with the whole Middle East bullcrap way back when, none of this ever would have happened. Ever. 19:01:20 kc5tja: Chomsky is saying that the September 11th attacks are LESS bad than the Sudan bombing 19:01:32 I didn't read that. 19:01:41 chandler, who are we dealing with here? the US Army no? 19:01:43 "The terrorist attacks were major atrocities. In scale they may not reach the level of many others, for example, Clinton?s bombing of the Sudan with no credible pretext, destroying half its pharmaceutical supplies and killing unknown numbers of people" 19:02:04 gilbertbsd: and your conspiracy theories are quite laughable but exist in a very strange plane of unreality 19:02:12 :) 19:02:14 thank you. 19:03:15 OK, I can see where he's saying that. But his use of the words 'may not' versus 'did not' doesn't exactly imply that. 19:03:25 It leaves room for interpretation. 19:05:13 Man, my antenna must really suck eggs. 19:05:24 I know there have to be shortwave radio stations broadcasting now, but I can't pick any of them up. 19:06:18 BTW, if you're interested in history, you really need to learn something on sionism. 19:06:22 --- quit: Nutssh ("Client exiting") 19:06:48 kc5tja: of course, he claims that much worse cases "easily come to mind" 19:07:00 chandler, much worse cases of US atrocities. 19:07:38 it would be nice if he would list the relevant ones (and keeping in mind we don't exactly have continuous government for more than eight years at a time) 19:07:53 Just for to know the real state. 19:07:59 yeah. so let's just forgive all the transgressions of state :) 19:08:03 very good chandler. VERY good. 19:09:25 chandler, you do think you have another government with new presindent, don't you? 19:09:36 gilbertbsd: I am saying it is unfair to blame the US as it is now for "these years [i.e., between 1812 and 1941], the US annihilated the indigenous population (millions of people), conquered half of Mexico, intervened violently in the surrounding region, conquered Hawaii and the Philippines (killing hundreds of thousands of Filipinos), and in the past half century particularly, extended its resort to force throughout much of the world. The n 19:10:00 ASau: I said it was not continuous, not totally different 19:10:16 chandler, ummm it hasn't exactly stopped. 19:10:24 post 1941. 19:10:37 There's practically no difference, so it's pretty continuous. 19:10:38 I was taking a quote, not writing something 19:11:04 there's no difference between the government of 1812 and the government of now? my my. 19:11:35 1941, 1961, 1981, 2001 etc 19:13:24 It's the same government with another staff. 19:13:25 you know, heh, why don't I just send you all to the page I am copying from, and give up the 3 versus 1 argument. Just be prepared to accept a little criticism of Chomsky... 19:13:50 chandler, i'm a little busy trying to get this hawt hawt brazillian chix attention. 19:13:53 sorry ;) 19:14:03 priorities :D 19:14:07 http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=1020 19:14:08 http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=1018 19:14:21 umm she's a geekette and i can't let her escape. a rarity in miami! :D 19:14:27 hehe 19:16:49 OK, these are in my todo list. I'll read them. 19:17:18 just take a little Horowitz with your Chomsky... it's good for the mind to remember that the United States is not evil 19:17:29 misguided, flawed, but not evil 19:18:05 chandler, it's good for the mind to remember that the british empire was not evil :) 19:18:24 misguided, flawed, but not evil 19:18:33 same goes for germany, japan, bin laden etc ... 19:18:42 er. you are saying that bin laden is not evil? 19:18:53 i say he's misguided. 19:19:02 misplaced zeal and all. 19:19:16 er, since when did killing all americans become "misplaced zeal"? 19:19:16 same as the US :D 19:19:27 the united states does NOT have as its goal mass murder 19:19:37 anybody who thinks so is likewise living in a very strange unreality 19:19:39 since when did killing all iraqis become 'misguided, flawed, but not evil'? 19:20:03 I haven't been reading the news lately; I guess I missed the part where Iraq was reduced to a smoldering crater. 19:20:23 Somebody ought to tell our representatives; just today I was reading about how great Daschle thinks Iraq is going 19:20:23 i also miss the part where bin ladin has reduced the US to a smoldering crater. 19:20:30 chandler, bombing Serbia, Iraq. 19:20:30 gilbertbsd: he would love to 19:20:41 right. 19:20:44 Intervening Guatemala, Cuba. 19:20:44 and you know this how? 19:20:55 gilbertbsd: you ought to do just a little bit of reading on the man... 19:21:02 ah yes, so do you. 19:21:02 and the origins of his organization 19:21:12 chandler: The neo-conservative think tank (whose name I forgot) produced a series of bumper stickers that read, "No Muslims, No Terror." Does that count as evil? 19:21:14 actually, I think he would probably be content with killing all the jews 19:21:16 yeah. meanwhile read on the origines of the neo con 19:21:21 kc5tja: yes, it does 19:21:23 touche kc. 19:21:46 however, I highly doubt that this view is widely shared (thankfully, probably as infrequent as the view that bin Laden is not evil) 19:21:48 Needless to say, it was Ann Coulter who funded their production. 19:21:53 okay, i have to concentrate on pamela or else she'll go away. 19:21:57 ciao 19:21:58 --- quit: gilbertbsd ("Leaving") 19:22:14 kc5tja: you seem to think I am parroting some kind of neocon party line 19:22:17 let me inform you; I am not 19:22:23 my politics have nothing to do with that 19:22:42 No offense, but you do seem to be coming off as a rightie-tightie. :) 19:22:56 actually my politics are "acquire resources I need for sustainable, independent off-earth colony and leave you losers behind" 19:23:04 * kc5tja nods 19:23:15 I simply can't stand a great majority of leftist thought 19:23:16 That's pretty close to anarchy as it gets. :) 19:24:17 chandler, don't you mind that those, whom you want to take resources from, do have right not to give? 19:24:35 ASau: that's where nuclear weapons come into play 19:25:32 chandler, that's where "We have the full right to answer on resources stealing with terrorism" starts. 19:25:52 eh? that statement didn't parse 19:26:00 perhaps you need to study some Chomsky grammars 19:26:09 Terroristic answer on terror. 19:26:19 I still don't grok 19:26:37 I mean this. 19:26:44 You want to get resources. 19:27:03 Noone want to give. 19:27:06 What he's saying is that it's natural for another country to resort to terrorism when imperialistic resource acquisition by a more wealthy state happens. 19:27:16 Which is pretty much exactly what the USA is doing in the Middle East right now. 19:27:20 Then you _steal_ resources. 19:27:36 Prepare to reaction. 19:28:11 Just wait for reaction. 19:28:17 Personally, I think Bin Laden's terrorist attacks weren't related to oil; instead, they were a response to America once again backing Israel in all matters what-so-ever without even bothering to consider the Palestinian states. 19:28:27 what palestinian states? 19:28:30 But the activities in Iraq are quite definitely oil related. 19:28:40 Umm...everywhere BUT Israel perhaps? 19:28:41 What you've got Sep 11 is plain: a reaction on U.S. sionist politics. 19:29:08 kc5tja: look, please take a while and browse around the frontpage site. There are quite a few refutations and opposing views that you might want to read up on 19:29:14 which are expressed more eloquently than could I 19:29:22 chandler: I have done my homework on this stuff. 19:29:26 my comment was sarcastic; the last thing that the terrorists want is a palestinian state 19:29:27 I read everything I could. 19:29:36 kc5tja: ok, well there's more reading material for you there 19:29:48 anyway, as a friend of mine puts it, "suicide bombers don't have mortgages" 19:30:01 That last is non sequitor. 19:30:11 which is to say, that the palestinian authority has not pursued statehood any of the number of times they could have, and one has to wonder why 19:30:23 Huh? 19:30:29 chandler, those fighters do want their land, which is stealed by Israel. 19:30:29 Then why are there so many Arab countries? 19:30:53 hahaha 19:31:00 wow, this is a curious plane of thought... 19:31:05 It's not curious. 19:31:06 It's fact. 19:31:16 unfortunately for you, there was violence against isreal even before the 1967 war 19:31:23 The country of Israel was established by the UN without asking permission at all from the surrounding countries. 19:31:27 what the "fighters" want is nothing less than the elimination of Isreal as a state 19:31:55 kc5tja: you mean, like Egypt, who sided with the Nazis in WWII? /yeah/. 19:32:01 unfortunatly for you there was a violence against arabs since 1925. 19:32:26 chandler: And this relates how? 19:32:31 chandler, yes. 19:32:39 http://www.frontpagemag.com/media/slideshowimages/slide1.html 19:32:45 kc5tja: which part? 19:33:03 Israel is situated on arabs' land. 19:33:19 ASau: er, genetically, jews are arabs too 19:33:25 I don't see what that means. 19:33:39 There was no one jew till 1896. 19:34:02 Since about 700. 19:34:43 I don't mean orthodox. They were always against sionism. 19:34:48 no. Muslims were domininant in the 7th century, but Jews were still living in the area, all throughout the crusades 19:35:01 look, I am not even going to bother to debate you on this one 19:35:07 chandler, you mean orthodox. 19:35:10 I have better things to do with my time 19:36:08 Orthodox jews _never_ joined sionists. 19:36:17 Hehe 19:36:25 There's no question about what the Arab countries want. 19:36:29 except to say, that you might read http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=4454 and http://www.frontpagemag.com/media/slideshowimages/slide1.html 19:36:29 I knew that much. 19:36:57 Nor do I claim there is an easy way out of the ordeal. 19:36:59 chandler, can you read Russian? 19:37:11 ASau: no 19:37:20 I know enough links on sionism history. 19:37:28 But not English. 19:37:36 don't expect everyone else to treat zionism as a dirty word 19:38:00 OK, I won't even bother to read further this magazine. 19:38:13 "Marxist delusions and committed to violent means" is an absolute insult to my intelligence. 19:38:20 This site is so right-wing as to be nonsensical. 19:38:43 kc5tja: that's essentially the mirror of what I would say about Chomsky 19:39:24 Chomsky's statements at least have some basis in fact. 19:39:29 chandler, learn why Nazi, fascists and many onthers were antisemit. 19:39:40 That Marxism statement is just plain bullshit. 19:39:47 Complete contrivation on the part of the author. 19:39:53 kc5tja: which page are you drawing from? 19:40:01 ASau: are you expecting to convert me to antisemitism? 19:40:01 http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=4454 19:40:01 it won't work 19:40:25 chandler, I don't expect. 19:40:36 You know only one side. 19:40:58 kc5tja: which part are you doubting - the influence of marxism on the palestinian cause (and its supporters) or the fact that the so-called "palestinian cause" is committed to violent means? 19:41:00 That's why you support zionism. 19:41:16 None of the above. 19:41:18 ASau: which part - the part that says that racism is wrong? 19:41:36 I'm strongly doubting the crass association of Marxism and hostile movements. 19:41:55 kc5tja: oh, heaven forbid, like there haven't been enough murders propogated in the name of marxism 19:42:08 chandler, there're about one third of all palestinian organisation that call themselves Marxist. 19:42:22 Not all of them. 19:42:23 chandler: Or in the name of God. There have been WAY more deaths in the name of Jesus Christ than any other person. 19:42:48 last I checked, USA wasn't exactly 'clean of blood' for establishing this country's ideal way of life either. 19:44:18 * kc5tja is anti-semitic in the sense that I feel Jews ought to be treated exactly like, say, my co-workers, or Asau, or even you. E.g., they should receive no particularly special treatment what-so-ever. 19:44:24 BTW, even more murders were propagated in the name of anti-Marxism. 19:44:35 * kc5tja isn't particularly against Jews. 19:44:36 kc5tja: so fine, if you want to separate out marxism from marxism-leninism-stalinism, go ahead 19:44:45 I do. 19:45:08 Because the distinctions are quite important and have had, as you'll no doubt agree, massive implications on the population of a country. 19:45:16 In particular, I'm a fan of Marxism-De Leonism. 19:45:28 chandler, you mix Marxism, Marxism-Leninism and Stalinism. 19:46:23 ASau: probably. 19:47:44 It's quite easy to take name of marxist or leninist but not to be neither of them. 19:48:00 kc5tja: actually between the USSR, Communist China, N Korea, and other Marxist countries, they have managed to kill and order of magnitude more (of their own!) people than any other religion in history. 19:48:19 kc5tja: anyway, I did not say I was trying to give you something unbiased to read... but merely, that you should at least read a bit. I am not doing very well in keeping up with you tonight (my brain is shot), but at least you know how I feel here 19:48:28 proteusguy, do you know history of USSR? 19:48:37 * kc5tja nods 19:48:37 proteusguy, you're wrong. 19:48:40 Agreed. 19:48:49 And I do read right-wing material, quite often. 19:48:52 ASau: haha how am I wrong? 19:49:05 (I particularly have to because I do fake radio shows with my roommates, who are actually trying to get it on the air, too) 19:49:39 proteusguy: don't forget, you're arguing with an antisemite here... 19:49:49 I wouldn't expect too much sense out of him 19:50:02 kc5tja: if you read just one conservative site I would recommend that this be the one 19:50:11 For the love of all that is holy, that's like saying, "Don't forget; he's black. Don't expect too much sense out of him." 19:50:11 proteusguy, Most of your "killed" were murders or thieves. 19:50:28 anti-semite or not, not even the former Soviet leadership denies the millions of people killed by their own government. 19:50:34 kc5tja: er, since when did anti-semite become the same as a race, and anti-racism the same as racism? 19:50:36 proteusguy, and they're not "victims of regime." 19:50:54 You're clearly discriminating against Asau's ability to think for himself. 19:50:55 ASau: When you make freedom illegal, we are all thieves and criminals. 19:51:22 kc5tja: right, but discrimination IS valid on self-selected categories 19:51:27 he is the one that chooses to be an antisemite 19:51:29 You're pidgeon-holing him into that "Anti-semite" category, which you feel is somehow inferior to your own school of thought. 19:51:31 proteusguy, do you know what's "White-Czeck regime"? 19:51:43 --- join: Kurt (1000@mrdh-b-102.resnet.purdue.edu) joined #forth 19:51:52 Irrelavent. 19:51:53 * Kurt points out that total free-market capitalism is the ONLY moral system 19:51:59 proteusguy, who is Kolchak, Dutov, Krasnov? 19:52:08 kc5tja: perhaps I misinterpreted him... what was I supposed to "learn" about why Nazis were anti-semitic? 19:52:14 Kurt: umm....no. 19:52:15 Kurt is correct. 19:52:25 and yes, I do believe that racists are inferior to my school of thought 19:52:27 kc5tja: you're an idiot 19:52:28 I make that distinction a lot 19:52:36 Asau: re White-Czeck, what's your point? 19:52:37 * kc5tja has to work three jobs just to make rent payments. How is this fucking moral? 19:52:39 proteusguy, there's no "free-market capitalism" 19:52:40 Kurt: insulting the guy with the +o... not wise 19:52:56 kc5tja: because capitalism is the only system that completely respects individual rights 19:52:57 kc5tja: since when is it wrong to say that certian views of thought are inferior? 19:53:02 ASau: only cause freedom has been outlawed by the statists. 19:53:08 Sorry, but I strongly disagree. 19:53:19 then, as I have already stated, you're an idiot 19:53:43 Kurt: I challenge you to work three minimum wage jobs, plus go to school, and try to survive. 19:53:45 racism IS a view that is inferior. It is not logical. 19:53:50 no need to call names. No one I've seen on #forth would I classify as an idiot. Perhaps misguded! :) 19:54:01 kc5tja: whether it's easy or not is irrelevant 19:54:01 Kurt: I'm no more an idiot than you are. 19:54:05 proteusguy, most of your "killed by Soviets" were killed on territories occupied by white-czeck, Dobrovolcheskaja Army etc. 19:54:19 ASau: are you familiar with the history of China? 19:54:33 kc5tja: Working 3 minmum wage jobs and going to school doesn't seem like a very good personal choice to me... 19:54:47 proteusguy: It's not a choice. 19:54:53 DO you think I **WANT** to work 3 jobs? 19:54:54 ASau: if not, I suggest you do some reading. It's fascinating stuff, but VERY brutal. 19:54:55 find someplace with cheaper rent 19:54:57 chandler, for today I can't speak on China. I'm only in start. 19:55:10 Kurt: You're not going to get much lower than $400/month. 19:55:12 ANywhere. 19:55:31 ehh, in my hometown you can rent a decent single-bedroom apartment for $250 a month 19:55:34 proteusguy, even more. 19:55:53 proteusguy, it's common lie that there was no freedom in Soviet Russia. 19:55:55 and at any rate, your desire to have an easy life does not justify violating the right of the landlord to attach whatever terms he wishes to use of his property 19:55:57 kc5tja: It certainly is a choice. You have just limited your options. I bet you could drop one or two of those jobs and start your own private business and do much better. 19:56:01 OK, but what about other costs of living? What about cost of education? 19:56:13 ASau: really? perhaps you would like to take it up with the soviet emigres who were my teachers... they told an awfully different story 19:56:17 proteusguy: I've been trying to cultivate my own business for the last year and a half. 19:56:25 kc5tja: you're making this a practical argument when it's not. 19:56:26 proteusguy: But without money, you can't succeed. 19:56:28 It's a vicious cycle. 19:56:37 it's a matter of principle, not "what works" 19:56:40 and perhaps you would like to defend the motivations of those who would like to destroy Isreal to my professor who was from Isreal 19:56:41 kc5tja: Certified education is not a prerequiste to anything but being a professor, doctor, or lawyer. 19:56:42 chandler, what the wave of emigration? 19:56:45 what's right > what produces a desirable result 19:56:50 ASau: hm? 19:56:58 proteusguy: Not in my experience, sorry. 19:57:05 --- join: gilbertbsd (~gilbert@fl-nked-ubr2-c3a-37.miamfl.adelphia.net) joined #forth 19:57:15 Kurt: Sorry, but unlike some people, I choose to live. 19:57:23 ASau: What freedoms did the individual have in the USSR? Its completely contrary to communism. 19:57:24 And that means I have to pay for food, utilities, and rent. 19:57:28 bah. i needn't have left. she going on a date with someone else :(( 19:57:29 so? 19:57:33 again 19:57:34 n e way. where were we? 19:57:35 chandler, there were many waves and emigrants had very different reasoning. 19:57:40 kc5tja: What's your business attempts been in? 19:57:42 your choice does not justify violating the individual rights of other people 19:57:46 ASau: they left after the fall, when they could 19:57:48 proteusguy: http://www.falvotech.com 19:58:07 Kurt: And your choice doesn't justify violating my rights. 19:58:17 how are your rights being violated? 19:58:21 "The second national prize for poetry in the USSR was five years in prison. The first prize was a death sentence, as seen by the fates of Nikolai Gumilev (execution by firing squad) and Osip Mandelshtam (a hungry death in the Gulag)." 19:58:40 chandler, they have economic reasoning, not politic. 19:58:55 ASau: excuse me? 19:58:58 kc5tja: So what's been the problem? Why hasn't business taken off? What kind of clients have you developed? 19:59:06 proteusguy: None. 19:59:15 haha well that's a problem. 19:59:15 Despite my paltry attempts at advertising, I've had no feedback. 19:59:27 It is a problem, when you have no budget to spend on advertising, duhh. 19:59:42 kc5tja: out of curiosity, what services are they advertising? 19:59:53 I started my own business at age 20 when my college turned out to be a loser and the guy I was working for went to Vegas and blew the business in one weekend... 19:59:58 chandler: I already posted a link to my business above. 20:00:37 ... I had no money and never advertised. You gotta network with the local community. Identify some target market like accountants or small doctors offices. 20:00:41 Sorry, I can miss some replies, I can't stay 6 parallel treads. 20:00:51 kc5tja: oops, missed it! sorry 20:00:57 proteusguy: I already tried that. 20:01:10 oh, heh, you live in California? no wonder your rent sounded high... 20:01:15 The problem is that the market is so heavily saturated with other people doing the same thing. 20:01:19 the cost of living IS measurably higher in CA 20:01:23 kc5tja: This was 1989 and before the year was up I was making more money than my parents combined - in a town of 80,000 people. 20:01:34 whereas Kurt and I live in an area with very low cost of living 20:01:46 Right now I have one client, the one I'm doing embedded Linux development for. 20:01:50 kc5tja: So how do you approach your customers? 20:02:04 proteusguy: Explain your question. 20:02:45 kc5tja: How do you attempt to gain a new customer? BTW - embedded programming is great fun but rarely do those customers have much money I'm afraid. Gotta do the boring stuff... 20:02:45 chandler, I don't paricularly learn those cases. 20:02:48 kc5tja: my advice is to get out of CA. The market /is/ saturated there. Fortunately in the US, you don't need a passport to cross state borders 20:03:11 ASau: you are not communicating what you mean to me 20:03:28 chandler: I've considered it. But I want to wait until after I'm done with school. 20:04:03 I spent 10 years out of school, trying to start my own businesses (successfully managed two of them before they both got stomped on for various reasons), then tried to work for someone else. 20:04:28 People say college is worthless. I find the opposite to be the case. 20:04:30 Working for someone else sucks. :P Today was my last day doing that. 20:04:38 kc5tja: I wouldn't say so 20:04:43 * proteusguy never made it back to college. 20:04:55 but it sounds to me like you are in a bad economic condition, and aren't looking at the options.... there are other schools 20:05:26 chandler, do you know how it was explained why Mandeshtam and Gumiljov were prisoned? 20:05:42 ASau: no, I don't. I'm sure it's a creative reason. 20:05:57 chandler: is ASau a Soviet apologist? 20:06:09 Kurt: and anti-semite too 20:06:12 ooh 20:06:23 yeah, we are on a curious plane of unreality tonight 20:06:38 where Osama bin Laden is merely misguided, not evil 20:06:39 chandler, that's your imagine. I'm not anti-semite. 20:06:52 ASau: You ask a lot of questions and propose a lot of conjecture and give interesting answers to questions that were never posed. But you do seem unable to stick to a point and actually support it without referring to arcane and highly questionable informations (propaganda?). 20:06:54 chandler, I'm anti-zionist. 20:07:05 ASau: oh. then what did you want to explain to me about the reasons why the nazis were anti-semitic? 20:08:09 chandler, you know Germany was ruined after WWI and had to pay a lot by Versailles Treaty. 20:08:24 yes... 20:08:53 chandler, the main estate (banks etc) was in jews hands. 20:09:30 main estate?!?!? hahaha wow that's like an interesting choice of words! Illuminati anywhere? 20:09:32 as a consequence of a thousand years of european history, yes... but that does not explain or excuse anti-semitism 20:09:36 And when germans had to work or had no work, jews were in exploitators state. 20:10:02 oh, heh. Just because jews were heavily into banking does not mean that they were "exploiting" anyone, and that STILL does not excuse anti-semitism 20:10:10 * kc5tja has an issue with the whole 'semitism' thing. 20:10:12 --- join: Nutssh (~Foo@gh-1177.gh.rice.edu) joined #forth 20:10:17 I just looked up the word, and there are two variations: 20:10:22 You can't blame Jews for being banker when the entire market was given to them by a religiously self-imposed restriction on charging interest!! 20:10:22 semitic -- one in support of the Jews. 20:10:28 anti-semitic -- one who is opposed to the Jews. 20:10:43 This leaves no room for a third option: one who is neither opposed for for the Jews. 20:10:52 I would've thought 20:10:58 kc5tja: I think that definition is missing something... look up the root of the word semitic 20:11:05 semeitic meant you were a jew 20:11:10 My definitions come from http://www.m-w.com 20:11:36 try www.dict.org 20:11:37 point of order: semites are not just jews. 20:11:42 anyway, antisemitism has a very clear meaning 20:11:46 even if the meaning of semitism is not... 20:12:05 Actually semites are of a particular region. Its quite entertaininly term when one discovers and a significant portion of the Arab population qualifies as well. Obviously the term has been redefined a few times since its original usage. 20:12:07 chandler, NSDAP made a government for its support to "DA." 20:12:27 ASau: I could recover no meaning from that statement 20:12:29 chandler, the first success of Hitler was inflation decrease. 20:12:34 gilbertbsd is correct. 20:12:49 and the second was the murder of several million jews 20:14:31 I agree; Hitler was both genious and madman. His genious was simply *not* worth the madness. :( 20:14:37 chandler, yes. Jews weren't workers. They were capitalists. 20:15:05 chandler, so they weren't supported by those "DA." 20:15:20 ASau: if, indeed, a minority population had such complete economic control over a majority of the civilized world, why do you suppose they would not invest some of that money in self-defense and ensure their place in society? 20:15:39 I've never met a jew, they're a bit of an enigma to me 20:15:49 oh, heh. all FIVE MILLION MURDERED JEWS were rich and capatilists? 20:16:04 wealth has nothing to do with capitalist 20:16:05 chandler, if "DA" weren't under Versaille's conditions, NSDAP wouldn't get support. 20:16:13 ASau: The majority of Jews in Germany were lower middle class workers in the 20s and 30s. Just like the rest of Germany. 20:16:17 chandler, another point of order: the germans weren't the only anti-jews in europe. 20:16:34 france, russia, poland etc were quite actively expunging jews 20:16:38 one is a capitalist if he is of the belief that government's only job is to protect individual rights and punish the initiators of non-consensual violent physical force and fraud 20:16:48 gilbertbsd: what relevance does this have? 20:16:56 he is trying to "explain" the murder of millions of jews 20:16:59 gilbertbsd, Tsarists' Russia to be more exact. 20:17:21 ASau: oh, heh, so now you're ignoring the MILLIONS of jews murdered by Stalin? 20:17:42 Actually, 'capitalist' is slightly more restricted; a capitalist believes in a free-market economy as well. 20:17:47 stalin murdered everyone 20:17:51 he didn't discriminate 20:17:53 chandler, what millions? Whom of them do you mean? 20:18:00 ASau: the dead ones 20:18:05 fridge, go stalin? 20:18:10 chandler, name them. 20:18:19 sorry, I think I left that list somewhere else 20:18:28 haha 20:18:29 kc5tja: a free-market economy is a logical consequence of what I stated 20:18:36 one need not explicitly say that 20:19:00 I think one does. 20:19:21 But, anyway, here's a link with some humor in it. http://www.swl.net/cflg/funydsph.txt 20:19:22 chandler, JFYI, you "repressions" took no more than 5 mln. in whole. 20:19:31 ooh 20:19:35 ONLY five million people died 20:19:56 chandler, and plain major part of them were only prisoned, not "killed." 20:20:11 Asau: You ignored my question and my point. Have any responses to them? 20:20:19 chandler, and practically all of them were murders and thieves. 20:20:47 proteusguy, repeat please. I am not 8 CPU. 20:20:58 ASau: if, indeed, a minority population had such complete economic control over a majority of the civilized world, why do you suppose they would not invest some of that money in self-defense and ensure their place in society? 20:21:02 ASau: The majority of Jews in Germany were lower middle class workers in the 20s and 30s. Just like the rest of Germany. 20:21:06 I must say, I've never met a Soviet apologist who is also a Nazi sympathizer... 20:22:41 I think this discussion is a now officially a waste of perfectly good words 20:22:42 proteusguy, well, they of course invested. But that was the purpose of SA: to work against this defence. 20:23:39 ASau: OK you're completely nuts. There was no Jewish Defence Force or any other organized effort of Jews everywhere to protect a position WHICH THEY NEVER HAD! 20:23:49 proteusguy, do you mean hairdressers etc are workers? 20:24:12 ASau: You mean the only work Jews did were haidressers, etc?? 20:25:00 Kurt, you should separate marxists and stalinists. 20:25:21 true 20:25:23 ASau: You should get an appointment with reality. 20:25:37 Stalinism is better than Communism and socialism 20:25:49 because at least under Stalinism the people generally don't live long enough to suffer 20:25:49 proteusguy, I mean the main part is. Like they were in Russia and other countries. 20:25:51 Its all Statist and its all immoral. 20:26:43 Kurt, do you know difference between all of them? 20:26:46 ASau: You're just making this up! Its completely false. Its so utterly removed from reality and the directly knowledge of people (STILL LIVING TODAY) who know better! 20:27:12 proteusguy: look, you're dealing with someone who is one step removed from a holocaust denier, and at least a denier of the soviet holocaust 20:27:16 ASau: yes, I know 20:27:27 proteusguy: I know, I was just taking a cheap shot at the leftist retards 20:27:38 chandler: I'm not dealing with him, I'm mocking him. ;) 20:27:47 proteusguy, no! I know reality. You should get acquanted. 20:28:09 * proteusguy adds ASau to his perm ignore list. 20:28:17 Kurt: So all democrats in this country are retards, should be shot and hung by their genitals, eh? 20:28:21 ah... bliss... 20:28:28 proteusguy, thanks. 20:28:35 they're retards, yes 20:28:46 they don't need to be shot and hung until they've violated individual rights, though 20:28:54 And how is a Republican-only country any different from a dictatorship? 20:29:13 * proteusguy didn't see anyone propose a Republican-only country. 20:29:16 If we're not allowed to have a difference of opinion, then where are our freedoms? 20:29:32 proteusguy: Ann Coulter 20:29:40 No she didn't. 20:30:14 JFYI, there's practically no one jew among workers here. The main part they are teachers, bankers, barbers, journalists - no any real worker. 20:30:25 kc5tja: the Republicans are just as bad 20:30:26 That's a fact. 20:30:40 Kurt: OK, just making sure I understood your position a bit better 20:30:40 no one's saying you can't disagree 20:30:48 just that you can't violate individual rights 20:30:51 Ann Coulter wants to see a country that supports "Republican Values". However, you will not get that by electing Republicans. :) 20:30:54 when you do that is when you deserve to be hanged 20:30:56 proteusguy: Boy, she sure does come close. Those 'liberal traitors' and all. 20:31:18 She just dislikes the liberal traitors more than the Republican ones. 20:31:54 OK, whatever. 20:32:09 kc5tja: The opposite of Democrat is not Republican. They're two sides of the same coin. 20:32:45 "Liberals hate America." 20:32:55 She has a disasterously warped sense of reality. 20:33:19 The modern liberals (who are in power) do hate the ideas that are the basis of America. So? 20:33:27 That's not true. 20:33:33 We believe in freedom of speech. 20:33:38 classical liberals don't, but modern liberals do 20:33:39 Freedom of expression in general. 20:33:55 Kurt, on stalinism. JFYI, in Soviet Russia till White Movement activists killed Uritsky and shot Lenin (Oct. 1918), there were printed many mensheviks', SR's and others' magazines. 20:33:59 kc5tja: Are you speaking for yourself or the current liberal establishment? 20:34:04 Both. 20:34:06 kc5tja: what if I were to say, "I hate the fags and the jews and the niggers" or something along those lines? 20:34:26 Then I'd say you have a warped sense of reality too. 20:34:37 do you not realize that there are followers of modern liberalism who wish to ban such expression 20:34:39 kc5tja: How about naming a public figure who's vies you share and I will happily disect their love of America. 20:34:39 ? 20:34:59 They are quite in the minority, I can assure you. 20:35:07 We're not happy with them either. 20:35:44 but I agree with proteusguy's challenge 20:35:50 Well then you shouldn't include yourself in the list of liberals that Ann C speaks of. She's talking about Senator Kerry, Al Sharpton, et al... 20:35:51 Kurt, Stalin made "unitary party". 20:35:54 I refuse the challenge. 20:35:57 That's bogus. 20:36:02 haha wise move kc5tja. 20:36:05 :) 20:36:20 That's like saying George W. Bush Jr. 20:36:25 "loves" America. 20:36:25 Hey - its not bogus. You just redfined the group of people we're talking about. 20:36:28 He just loves his money. 20:36:33 kc5tja: he doesn't love the US 20:36:35 GWB is anti-American too. 20:36:52 neither does anyone else in elected office in federal government, either 20:36:55 proteusguy: Liek I said, your challenge is bogus. Anyone can have their views dissected. 20:36:56 except maybe Ron Paul 20:36:56 kc5tja: You're really putting words in our mouths that we neither said nor implied! 20:37:04 Kurt: Ron Paul! 20:37:06 yes. 20:38:24 kc5tja: Now you're just trying to slip out. You made an assertion that "Modern Liberals" don't hate America. I'm willing to take the Modern Liberal of your choice and demonstrate you're wrong. 20:39:06 See, there you all go again. 20:39:20 Just because we have an opposing view on how this country conducts its affairs, we're "Unamerican." 20:39:23 We "hate" America. 20:39:25 What the FUCK?! 20:39:29 I can't have gone *again* cause I didn't get a chance to go the first time! :P 20:39:33 Why the FUCK does this country have a multi-party system anyway? 20:39:45 multi? 20:39:47 Last I checked, this country is not a dictatorship. 20:40:02 it's a taking-turns system. 20:40:04 kc5tja: I'm telling you that *you* aren't in that list of modern liberals necessarily. I'm waiting for you to let me know who you mean by that. 20:40:06 And if you don't like YOU can get out the country. 20:40:37 kc5tja: We are not a multi-party system and we *are* a dictatorship. Where have you been this last 10 years??? 20:40:51 kc5tja: I'm leaving the country on Sunday. 20:40:57 So just because I oppose the dictatorship, means I'm un-American? 20:41:12 kc5tja: You are the only person who called yourself un-American. 20:41:13 Because I believe in the values of the Constitution? 20:41:15 un-american. what the hell is that word? 20:41:22 No, Ann Coulter definitely has. 20:41:22 sounds mccarthy-ist. 20:41:26 http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2001/0111.coulterwisdom.html 20:41:29 kc5tja: She doesn't know you. 20:41:30 Read it and wheep. 20:41:39 She's like this to *ALL* non-conservatives. 20:41:51 aloha 20:41:52 --- quit: gilbertbsd ("Leaving") 20:42:09 Really you need to know the context of such political rhetoric. 20:42:15 She's written numerous books on the so-called Liberal Slander, about how the media is somehow biased against conservatives (never mind that neo-cons own 95% of the media!). 20:42:26 Did you read the site? 20:42:49 She makes patently false blanket statements. 20:42:50 kc5tja: She backs up her points in Liberal Slander very well actually. She has a strong argument. Care to argue her specific points? 20:42:54 And the neo-cons just EAT IT UP. 20:42:55 Please tell me one. 20:43:12 "If you don't hate Clinton and the people who labored to keep him in office, you don't love your country."---George, 7/99 20:43:21 btw - I don't agree with everything she says but she's got a lot of very good points. 20:43:28 "I think there should be a literacy test and a poll tax for people to vote."---Hannity & Colmes, 8/17/99 20:43:43 These are opinions - not assertions. 20:43:45 It seems it's not #forth but #politics. 20:43:47 To a disabled Vietnam vet: "People like you caused us to lose that war."---MSNBC 20:44:21 I've spoken to many other conservatives who share her views almost verbatim. 20:44:41 haha, that site of quotes is awesome 20:44:51 The vet was a member of "Veterans Against the Vietnam War" a group, founded by John Kerry in part, that was credited by the North Vietnamese General for making his voctory possible. I'd say she has good standing on that call. 20:45:18 This is my favorite: "My libertarian friends are probably getting a little upset now but I think that's because they never appreciate the benefits of local fascism."---MSNBC 2/8/97 20:45:38 * proteusguy is a libertarian. 20:45:51 :) 20:45:54 Well, as a libertarian, I'd be down-right pissed at her slander. 20:46:23 why? I don't give a shit what some blonde broad says 20:46:24 Nope - actually I find it ammusing and cute because it just shows she doesn't quite understand libertarianism. 20:46:29 She is nothing but a seething pile of human detritus with the lack of self-control to blather her vitriol in any public form she can get access to. 20:46:35 I hope she wastes in hell for the rest of her days. 20:47:04 kc5tja: at any rate, you've done an excellent job of evading proteusguy's challenge to back up your stance that modern liberals do not in fact hate the foundational principles of the US 20:47:18 kc5tja: Actually there are far more left-wing so-called journalists who spout far worse slanders on the front page of newpapers all over America. 20:47:20 * Kurt applauds 20:48:25 Nothing is such a pain in the ass as facts getting in the way of desire. 20:49:53 kc5tja: you have to understand that when Ann Coulter is speaking, she is being deliberately provocative and baiting 20:49:53 Kurt: I see no evidence to the contrary either. Patriot Act and its successors do more to undermine my *American* rights than anything else I've seen in decades. 20:50:13 Kurt: And i didn't evade; I refused outright. I find the challenge bogus. 20:50:30 kc5tja: You aren't getting any arguments from us on that. McCain-Fiengold do so even worse than the Patriot Act. 20:50:40 But we didn't make those assertions. 20:50:59 No, because you're so docile that you will happily live with them, without once speaking up in your own favor. 20:51:28 And that offends me to no end. 20:51:37 Most of the American public are just 'spectators.' 20:51:40 Fuck that shit. 20:51:45 How is the challange bogus?!?!? You decided to take offense at a remark that wasn't even targeted towards you, or if it was, refuse to clarify whose views you choose to associate yourself with so we know what you're talking about. 20:52:19 kc5tja: no one's claiming the Republicans are any better 20:52:25 stop putting words in everyone's mouth 20:52:32 the Republicans are just as socialist as the Democrats 20:52:36 But I'm *not* putting words in everyone's mouth. 20:52:39 the only difference is the Republicans are more dishonest about it 20:52:43 Socialist?????? 20:52:52 Supporting capitalism to the point where *only* monopolies exist? 20:52:57 That's the antithesis of socialism. 20:53:05 excuse me, that's the antithesis of capatalism too 20:53:22 kc5tja: 1) monopolies aren't incompatible with capitalism 2) neoconservativism is 20:53:23 kc5tja: You obviously don't know who I am. I've been fighting statist government since 1989. I've been a leader and consultant to the Republican and Libertarian Parties. I've run campaigns for public office and actually testified before government bodies on privacy and individual freedom issues. 20:53:36 No, because in an entirely free-market society, monopolies are the end-result of normal capitalist endeavor. 20:53:51 kc5tja: NO! at least not for an unlimited time 20:54:07 kc5tja: please learn to read what people actually DO type rather than what you wish they had typed 20:54:16 kc5tja: Name one free-market monopoly. (I can think of three so you got a good chance) 20:54:16 it'll make you seem a lot less ignorant 20:54:19 when a compelling alternative exists, the monopoly will fall 20:54:31 Microsoft. 20:54:39 buzz - sorry they are not. 20:54:44 Sorry, but they are. 20:54:59 Microsoft is a monopoly vendor of Microsoft software, which is all that some people need to complain about them. 20:55:00 What do they have a monopoly on please? 20:55:16 haha, I'm prescient. I just answered proteusguy's question :D 20:55:19 kc5tja: here's what I get from CTCP VERSION: 20:55:26 VERSION irssi v0.8.9 - running on Linux i686 20:55:30 Linux is NOT a Microsoft product 20:55:39 therefore, you are using something that is NOT a Microsoft product 20:55:46 therefore, Microsoft products aren't the only ones available 20:55:51 OK, so a <2% market share constitutes something as not being an effective monopoly. 20:55:54 therefore, Microsoft is not a monopoly in the software market 20:56:08 Neither was Standard Oil the only oil vendor in its day. 20:56:15 exactly 20:56:22 and if someone does have a monopoly, so what? 20:56:27 2% market share of WHAT? 20:56:27 kctja: Market share of what exactly? Operating Systems? Software in general? You're making such a vauge assertion I can't even debate you. 20:56:30 but that didn't stop them from dominating the market so ruthlessly that the barrier to entry for competition was all but impossible. 20:56:33 how is that a problem that government needs to be concerned with? 20:56:40 proteusguy: OS 20:56:47 as long as they're not using violent force or fraud, there's no reason for government to get involved 20:57:02 --- quit: Sonarman ("leaving") 20:57:05 kc5tja: no, the entry competition is not and was not all but impossible. People complained because they could not compete on Microsoft's terms, but in reality nobody was offering a better operating system than them 20:57:11 Kurt: Because then the monopoly can charge rediculous prices for its goods, and the lack of competition ensures poor quality through, well, lack of competition. 20:57:15 kc5tja: Microsoft has never had more than 75% of the OS market in its entire history and its market share shrinks every year in this regard. 20:57:17 kc5tja: so? 20:57:19 it's their product 20:57:26 why shouldn't they be able to charge whatever they like for it? 20:57:39 why shouldn't they be able to build it as they please? 20:57:43 Because true capitalism depends on FAIR prices, not exhorbitant prices. 20:57:49 ... 20:57:53 er, you seem to lack a basic understanding of economics 20:58:01 a fair price is whatever the buyer and seller can agree upon 20:58:11 if the buyer is willing to pay it, then he has obviously agreed to the price 20:58:16 since no one's holding a gun to his head 20:58:18 kc5tja: A natural monopoly has only been achieved a few times in history and was the most efficient and best value available at that time. They also rarely last long because it is nearly impossible to sustain. 20:58:22 Microsoft's prices are fair, because you cannot obtain a Microsoft product legally at a lower price. 20:58:57 * kc5tja laughs 20:59:06 kct5ja: Most all actual monopolies only come to be because of the use of government force to establish and support them. 20:59:56 kc5tja: So care to attempt to name an actual free market monopoly? I'll even lower the bar to 85% market share (which isn't, technically a monopoly). 21:00:03 which unfortunately the "antitrust" suit did for Microsoft - without government intervention, someone would have need to have tried harder to come up with a better product 21:00:19 proteusguy: Apparently, by your strict definition, I don't know of any. So please do enlighten me. 21:00:36 * kc5tja laughs at the idea of Windows being a superior product. 21:00:53 Laugh all you want. 21:00:55 There are volumes of documentation on Microsoft's strong-handed tactics to ensure that Windows became the dominant OS in the PC industry. 21:01:01 kc5tja: You were the one who asserted that free-market capitalism causes monopolies. I wished you'd be willing to back up some of these claims with facts. 21:01:01 DOS, I can see. 21:01:02 Not Windows. 21:01:30 enlighten me as to what a "strong-handed" tactic is 21:01:32 proteusguy: A company will strive to do whatever it can to ensure profits and marketshare. This includes legal strong-arming if necessary. 21:01:35 and why it's wrong 21:01:49 kc5tja: if the other party was stupid enough to sign such a contract, yeah 21:02:03 kc5tja: Well you're right about one thing. Unfortunately Microsoft was never charged with the things it was actually guilty of because the government tends to support such use of force. 21:02:26 chandler: Like, Microsoft requiring PC vendors to bundle windows with their PCs, instead of other OSes (e.g., it was a strictly exclusive agreement), or risk losing the right to bundle ANY kind of Microsoft product with their machines. 21:02:31 proteusguy: what is Microsoft guilty of? 21:02:32 kc5tja: Legal strong arming == government use of force. That goes against free-market capitalism. 21:02:43 kc5tja: oh really? how did they do this? guns? missiles? 21:02:47 did they buy ICBMs from the french? 21:03:05 or did the PC manufacturer in question sign a contract, and then later whine about it? 21:03:25 Look, as you keep telling me, "The facts are out there. Maybe you should read up on them." 21:03:29 I encourage you folks to do the same. 21:03:31 I have read up on them. 21:03:39 I used to be on your side of this issue, as a matter of fact. 21:03:42 Microsoft commonly broke trade secret agreements and incorporated the technologies into their products. The few times the companies lasted long enough to sue they won big. However the govt never proceeded with the criminal charges associated with these events. 21:03:54 proteusguy: ok, that much is true 21:04:41 however, I am certainly not convinced that the government needs to be involved when a stupid PC manufacturer (or many of them) sign an agreement they shouldn't have and then complain about the repurcussions 21:05:15 that is THEIR problem, and it is not "strong-arming" for Microsoft to expect other parties to follow their contracts 21:05:15 kc5tja: You simply haven't made you case my friend. I've really tried to get a specific assertion of yours supported but you don't care to bring forth any facts. 21:05:34 Fine. 21:05:42 I'm a "Blow-hard." 21:05:46 I'm obviously "wrong." 21:06:02 Where did these words in quotes come from? 21:06:02 haha kc5tja.... I still respect you pal. 21:06:09 Sure doesn't seem like it. 21:06:11 --- nick: arke -> chris-xp 21:06:22 sorry if I missed this part, but (chandler, proteusguy) do you think that microsoft has done anything good for the world? 21:06:28 chandler: Various places, not necessarily from this channel, but those of conservative origin. 21:06:44 kc5tja: You only think that because you keep associating ideas with me that I never said or implied. 21:06:46 kc5tja: don't take such ideological debates so darned personally 21:07:02 When they affect me personally, I take them personally. 21:07:19 Herkamire: whether they've done anything good for the world or not is irrelevant 21:07:21 Herkamire: yes - they have acquired a large amount of wealth in one place, so that when I acquire nuclear weapons, they will be my first target 21:07:38 Heramire: Sure Microsoft has brought computers to the average consumer and small business and helped make the easier to use as tools. 21:07:40 they have every right to charge whatever prices they wish for what they have created, and attach whatever terms they wish to their distribution 21:07:54 I hate how people try to make this an argument of pragmatics when it's really a question of principle 21:08:18 kc5tja: Never let politics or religion come between friends. : T. Jefferson 21:08:21 Kurt: M$ didn't create much 21:08:22 --- join: chris-cyg (~Chris@wbar8.lax1-4-11-099-104.dsl-verizon.net) joined #forth 21:08:31 they just bough companies and software 21:08:31 Herkamire: they didn't need to 21:08:34 oh, and hah 21:08:41 they wrote a lot of software and continue to do so 21:08:52 If you are living in a vacuum I suggest you look at the MSDN site 21:08:59 chandler: I've yet to see any software written my M$ that is any good 21:09:11 any good at what? 21:09:13 sol.exe 21:09:14 :P 21:09:17 anything 21:09:32 Microsoft goes by the principle of "good enough". And obviously that is a value of variable magnitude. 21:09:46 anyway, please stop arguing pragmatics 21:09:52 haha. For the record, most software by MS is at least mediocre. Their developer tools and support are definitely better than those for Linux. The Windows GUI is infintely better than the X Windows Disaster. 21:09:55 someone should not support a political belief because it "works" 21:10:00 it should be supported because it's morally right 21:10:44 * Kurt writes a letter to his state representative asking him to oppose the proposal in the statehouse to amend the state Constitution to ban same-sex marriage 21:10:56 it's already gotten past the Senate 21:10:59 chandler: whoa!! Sorry but the VC++ compiler environments have been absolutely terrible compared to Borland's or even GCC. Their developer tool suck. Look at MFC. 21:11:01 so now gotta try and stop it in the House 21:11:03 Kurt: aren't you supposed to be pushing anti-marriage? 21:11:07 --- quit: chris-cyg (Client Quit) 21:11:11 --- join: hovil (~hovil@CommSecureAustPtyLtd.sb1.optus.net.au) joined #forth 21:11:13 proteusguy: what part of it are you looking at? 21:11:15 what the hell is "anti-marriage"? 21:11:23 Kurt: do you believe the government should recognize marriage? 21:11:43 I don't see why the government needs to be involved if two people want to fuck each other exclusively 21:11:56 chandler: Which part of what, MFC? Its a resource nightmare and api design disaster. MSoft doesn't even use it internally. 21:12:02 to a limited extent, yes...it's useful for taking care of property disposal if one does not have a will 21:12:06 --- join: chris-cyg (~Chris@wbar8.lax1-4-11-099-104.dsl-verizon.net) joined #forth 21:12:12 oops ... 21:12:14 however, I think it should be considered a contract between individuals just like any other contract 21:12:14 wrong button :) 21:12:23 and treated as such 21:12:26 oh hi Kurt 21:12:29 meaning it can be between any number of individuals 21:12:32 Kurt: which means, the government should not really be involved in it specially 21:12:38 nor should it enter into eg taxes 21:12:40 who may or may not have any of any number of characteristics in common 21:12:41 Kurt: In that case government shouldn't have any involvement with marriage. 21:13:31 what was the topic of the M$ discussion when I jumped in? 21:13:32 But marriage is a contract between two individuals and society. People often forget that. Now it can be debated whether or not govt is a good representation for society. 21:13:50 proteusguy: I'm afraid I don't quite share your view. MFC is and can be a mess, but Microsoft's documentation, even the MSVC++ environment, are much better than what is available on Linux nowadays. Microsoft tries very hard to make it easy for third parties to develop, and that's not really about making an easy API, but providing developer support 21:14:07 Keramire: kc5tja was clamming that free-market capitalism causes monopolies and gave Microsoft as an example. It was quickly trounced. 21:14:22 I don't like MFC. I don't like Win32 much either. but as a company I would choose to program in them over programming in the house of cards that is the X windows disaster. 21:14:54 althugh its not the greatest, VS.NET et al (MFC etc.) have alot of effort that has been put into them 21:14:59 proteusguy: oh. cool. sounds like something you can't really prove or disprove. 21:15:00 chandler: wxWindows or Qt are far better environments than MFC. I'm a platform-independent type myself. I happily develop for win32 - just not using MSoft development tools. 21:15:16 Herkamire: Sure you can!! 21:15:35 i heard Intuition was easy ... i wonder if they ever port that to X/Win32/whatever 21:15:41 or an open source one :) 21:15:47 proteusguy: unfortunately wx and QT still don't compare - Windows is documented for the developer from top to bottom, in a coherent, up-to-date, and readable format 21:15:48 proteusguy: you can only give examples of things that have happened. this doesn't prove that it always is that way. 21:16:19 I am not saying that I wouldn't rather program in something else 21:16:19 Herkamire: OK - not a proof as in scientific law but certainly overwhelming evidence. 21:16:33 but if I were managing a team of third party developers, Windows has more of what counts 21:16:55 which is why Windows is and continues to be so popular with ISVs 21:17:09 chandler: Huh?!?! We're comparing MFC to wxWindows and Qt. I find them superior to MFC is nearly every possible manner - including documentation. 21:17:10 nobody wants to develop on linux because it's a bloody mess, not because they have any misconceptions about it 21:17:26 proteusguy: oh. well if you're just going to look at that slice I will agree :-) 21:17:34 not by much though as I hate C++ 21:17:38 chanlder: You did say development tools. 21:17:39 there's a big difference between statistics and evidence 21:17:51 but anyway, I was originally talking about the entire developer experience 21:17:55 Well, it's been enjoyable, but time for me to do some ham radio stuff now. 21:17:58 chandler: In that case I give you python with wxPython or PyQt! ha ha 21:18:03 and I hate python too :-) 21:18:22 and that's no better... you still have the FBC problem 21:18:27 Herkamire: Events are evidence not statistics. 21:18:36 chandler: FBC problem? 21:18:42 Fragile Base Class 21:18:56 If you change a C++ base class in any substantive way you will break binary compatibility 21:19:03 this requires lots of munging to work around 21:19:10 chandler: yes - I don't like the everything inherits from object paradigm either (if that's what you mean). So what language do you like? 21:19:11 unfortunately TrollTech seems to not mind breaking it] 21:19:22 no, that's not it 21:19:27 Objective C doesn't have this problem 21:19:28 proteusguy: there is no event that would be evidence that free-markets don't encourage monopolies 21:19:36 because it's not treating its classes as structs 21:19:50 C does have the problem though... that's why there are pads all over UNIX structs 21:19:59 Herkamire: Hey you're asking to prove a negative! A logical fallicy! 21:20:06 proteusguy: there could be a lot of events that statistically show that such monopolies would be _unlikely_ but it can't disprove the possibility 21:20:17 Herkamire: straw man. Nobody asked for that. 21:20:19 proteusguy: exactly 21:20:24 chandler: So you code Objective C under win32?!?!? 21:20:33 proteusguy: no, I said what I /liked/ 21:20:57 * proteusguy wishes someone would stick to the actual assertion THEY made around here! damn! 21:20:58 for Win32 work, if I desperately need something, I'll do it in VB or VB-with-semicolons (aka C#) 21:21:12 hey, I thought I was talking about market advantages 21:21:14 not me personally 21:21:49 chandler: hahaha well mocking C++ and python while chosing to code in VB/C# seems rather silly to me. 21:21:58 I didn't say I liked it either :D 21:22:04 of course, whether free markets lead to monopolies is irrelevant 21:22:05 there is a difference between liking something and using it 21:22:17 the only time I do windows stuff is professionally anyway 21:22:19 because as long as a monopoly was achieved without the use of physical force or fraud, it has every moral right to exist 21:22:30 * proteusguy loves his professional coding. 21:22:42 Kurt: true 21:22:47 Kurt: ??? 21:22:52 and right now, I only do professional coding during the summer, as I'm a full-time grad student 21:23:25 Kurt: I disagree. would it be right if I bought all the land surrounding your house and changed $1000 for crossing my land? 21:23:33 Herkamire: Kurt pointed out that there isn't anything wrong inherently with a natural monopoly. 21:23:54 Herkamire: yeah, after all, it's your land--you have every right to attach whatever terms you like to the use of it 21:23:57 --- quit: Nutssh ("Client exiting") 21:23:59 Herkamire: then you're a fool for owning land that is not next to publically-owned property 21:23:59 Herkamire: Common law provides for right of passage. 21:24:00 or not allow the use of it at all, if you so desire 21:24:59 Kurt: and you don't think that would be morally wrong? 21:25:16 Herkamire: you are making another straw-man argument 21:25:25 Kurt did not say that every action taken in a libertarian society is moral 21:25:33 kc5tja: check out http://www.self-gov.org and tell me if you disagree strongly with what you find there. 21:25:39 Herkamire: I wouldn't like it, and it certainly wouldn't be nice, but you have every right to do it 21:25:42 it is YOUR property 21:25:45 he said the only type of government that is moral to create is a libertarian society 21:26:00 Kurt: that's not what I asked. I'm asking if you think it's morally wrong. 21:26:22 ok 21:26:23 well 21:26:28 I don't think it's immoral, no 21:26:30 it's your property 21:26:32 --- join: Nutssh (~Foo@gh-1081.gh.rice.edu) joined #forth 21:26:39 * proteusguy reminds everyone that Utopia is NOT an option! 21:26:59 proteusguy: In every political test I've taken, I've always been listed as Libertarian, despite my socialist leanings. 21:27:24 kc5tja: So what aspect of your politics is socialist? 21:27:47 Well, I believe in a unified and freely available health care system. 21:27:53 heh, I always show up as authoritarian on that quiz 21:27:53 * proteusguy had a feeling kc5tja was a "self-hating" libertarian. hahaha 21:28:03 kc5tja: so you support slavery? Congratulations. 21:28:12 Whatever. 21:28:14 kc5tja: That's certainly socialist. 21:28:20 Kurt: oh please, don't start this here :( 21:28:44 ... 21:28:49 I'm for everything --- as long as I don't have to pay for it. :) 21:28:53 kc5tja: But you do realize that there ain't no such think as a free lunch, right? Someone's gotta pay for that medical care. You're argument is really who should pay, right? 21:29:02 I agree with almost all of the liberaterian stuff I've read, except about monopolies 21:29:05 Nutssh: Ah! Another socialist! :P 21:29:16 I have no problems paying 50% income tax if I get subsidized health care in return. 21:29:22 I'm for turning the stupid people into slaves, so the smart people can live in a libertarian paradise 21:29:23 Taxation is OK with me; taxation without representation isn't. 21:29:26 what does that make me? 21:29:59 I also believe firmly in a flat tax. 21:30:05 kc5tja: I'm not ok with my income going to health care 21:30:07 None of this sales tax, income tax, whatever tax bullcrap. 21:30:08 kc5tja: but I do have a problem with it 21:30:22 why should the fruit of my effort go to pay for someone else's health care? 21:30:42 kc5tja: why would you pay so much to the government for health care, instead of paying it to a private insurer? 21:30:48 I haven't been to the doctor or hospital or anything for 10 years. I take care of myself, and I don't think I should have to pay for idiots thaht don't even bother to eat what they think is right 21:30:54 chandler: Oh! You're a member of the Dogbert Ruling Class too eh? I'm a charter member! 21:30:59 Kurt: Since you won't accept any answer I give, I find answering it will only bring further vitriol in my direction. 21:31:03 proteusguy: I've been a member for probably ten years... :-) 21:31:15 kc5tja: you didn't answer my question 21:31:16 nice evasion 21:31:22 hi 21:31:36 anyway, I believe that the US populace already has a large and ready supply of people who have marked themselves for slavery: drug users 21:31:39 Kurt: Because it's the socially acceptable thing to do. The good of the many outweight the good of the one. With apologies to Spock. 21:31:40 Herkamire: But, keep in mind that something like 40% of the health care costs you cost society come in the last year of life --- when they might not be paid back. 21:31:48 kc5tja: that's false 21:31:55 Kurt: Is it? 21:31:57 no individual exists for the sake of others 21:32:01 he only exists for his own sake 21:32:01 Care to provide any counter-evidence? 21:32:16 kc5tja: when you can back up your claim, certainly 21:32:23 Really? Care to explain how humanity has been able to survive through natural and man-made calamities then? 21:32:33 When you can back up YOUR claim... 21:32:34 because people acted in their own self-interest 21:32:52 uh huh 21:32:53 Kurt: explain Dunkirk :) 21:32:59 Explain all native American tribes. 21:33:02 they thought, "Hey, I like being alive, and I want to be alive after this," so they did what it took to be alive 21:33:09 again, their ultimate motive was self-interest 21:33:29 if it happens that what benefits the individual also benefits the group, so be it 21:33:35 There are many species, humans being one of them, that DO desire survival, and depend on the community to make it happen. 21:33:39 but it is not government's place to make such decisions for people 21:33:48 kc5tja: I think you are going to face a huge problem with defining the "good of the many" on anything but a trivial level 21:33:54 individuals must decide for themselves how best to promote their own self-interest 21:33:56 I don't think we should funnel huge amounts of interest into hospitals and doctors and that crap. They are just treating symtoms. they don't create healthy people 21:34:08 and act accordingly (provided they don't initiate physical force or fraud against others) 21:34:12 chandler: Sure, which is why I (correctly) predicted that Kurt would just issue vitriol if I answered the question. 21:34:14 kc5tja: like, not dying is good 21:34:17 sorta like how jails don't create good citizens 21:34:47 kc5tja: if you consider making a point to be "vitriol", certainly 21:34:55 --- join: _proteus (~proteusgu@216.27.161.121) joined #forth 21:35:18 yeah. let's get rid of jails. You commit a crime, you get two options: either go to school and learn a useful intellectual skill, or get sent to the labor camps. 21:35:20 * kc5tja sighs 21:35:33 kc5tja: I don't agree that "healthcare" is a good for this society 21:35:45 That's fine. I respect your right to disagree. 21:35:48 this society needs to learn how to be healthy 21:35:55 <_proteus> kc5tja: How do you deal with the fact that, once something is free, the demand for it skyrockets so the supply cannot keep up? (As has happened in every nation that has tried it.) 21:35:58 I'm just saying, that *my* belief is with socialized health care. 21:36:06 not to be able to afford surgery and nasty drugs 21:36:16 and therefore, you are claiming that slavery is a moral primary 21:36:20 congratulations 21:36:23 I applaud your honesty 21:36:34 _proteus: And those countries that still have it seem to have managed over time, and that they are now doing well all things considering. 21:36:35 Kurt: whom are you addressing? 21:36:44 each individual MUST be free to pursue his own self-interest 21:36:53 it is not for government to dictate what his goals must be 21:36:55 chandler: kc5tja 21:36:59 oh, OK 21:37:06 <_proteus> kc5tja: They are all addressing the issue by denying care to individuals and costing lives. The very problems they claimed to be preventing! 21:37:08 I really don't see the connection to socialized health care and slavery. 21:37:20 it's quite simple 21:37:27 health care requires certain resources, right? 21:37:34 and these resources are not in infinite abundance 21:37:36 kc5tja: 50% of my wages pay for people getting healthcare and going to school 21:37:43 and more often than not must in fact be synthesized from other resources 21:37:48 SOMEONE has to do this 21:37:56 SOMEONE has to provide the health care 21:38:20 hahaha suckers debating politics 21:38:24 Yes. 21:38:25 it never gets anywhere 21:38:34 you're all slaves :) 21:38:39 if you create an entitlement to health care, then that implies an obligation on the part of someone else to either directly provide the health care (the doctor) or indirectly provide it (the manufacturer of the equipment) 21:38:47 whether they want to or not 21:38:50 that's slavery, is it not? 21:38:50 * _proteus got kc5tja to admit he's really a closet libertarian! That's something! 21:39:13 and if the doctors or manufacturers are willing to work for pay, then SOMEONE has to provide the resources to pay them whether they want to or not 21:39:16 that's slavery, no? 21:39:31 the to do list is 142 items long -- time to get back to work ;) 21:39:38 When viewed in that light, I can agree. 21:39:49 But again, my views of what is and is not socially acceptable are not the same as your views. 21:39:55 yes 21:39:59 you think slavery is a good thing 21:40:00 I do not 21:40:02 <_proteus> When one man can dispose with the fruits of your labor without your permission, you are a slave. 21:40:12 OK, fine. I think slavery is a good thing. 21:40:15 I want slaves. 21:40:18 I don't want employees. 21:40:28 at least you have the moral integrity to admit it 21:40:29 I make no secret of the fact that I think slavery is good. 21:40:31 And Kurt will be my first slave, once I am in a position to impose it. 21:40:36 :) 21:40:44 heh 21:40:48 kc5tja: you think it is socially acceptable to take money from everyone and put that money towards something that many of them morally disagree with 21:40:55 <_proteus> kc5tja: Unfortunately freedom is the one thing that you cannot have unless you are willing to give it to everyone else. 21:41:58 Herkamire: I'd rather put it towards hospitals and medical centers than bombs and war plane factories. 21:42:13 I think it's morally wrong and completely unacceptable that the government takes money from me for bombs, shitty schools, and western medicine 21:42:18 All I want is to get off this rock. If that means slavery and theft, so be it. 21:42:19 kc5tja: what it's being used for is irrelevant 21:42:28 the fact remains that you are taking what rightfully belongs to someone without his consent 21:42:50 and using it to subsidize something whether or not he thinks it's a good idea or is even morally acceptable 21:43:05 Well, look at things this way: if I was the evil-doer that I suspect many here think I am, would I really have let this discussion go on for so long? :) 21:43:45 I just feel that, as a member of a society, I have a moral obligation to contribute back to that society. 21:43:50 that's great 21:43:50 kc5tja: I don't think you're evil. I think you want to decide what's best for others 21:43:56 <_proteus> kc5tja: No one called you an evil-doer. I think Kurt is implying that you are complacent in the slavery of others - which is true of most people. 21:44:06 but what makes you think you get others to force others to do the same? 21:44:13 ehh 21:44:18 strike the first "others" in there 21:45:17 kc5tja: I believe you have the best intentions, but others will disagree (as I do) with what you think is best for us. and if you had the power to implement your ideas, we would be robbed of money to support your plan to help the society 21:47:29 If a man is truly honest and consistent in his ideas, then he is willing to be vilified by his opponents, and will proudly accept their own terms. 21:48:28 actually, I agree with kc5tja. 21:49:27 --- quit: proteusguy (Connection timed out) 21:50:56 Well, I thought I was done arguing politics when I went to tune about the ham bands. So I shall now declare this subject officially dead for me for tonight. If others want to continue to discuss, that's fine; I just won't respond. I'm tired, my neck and back are still stiff from the flu, and I should be getting to bed soon anyway. 21:57:59 kc5tja: I hope we didn't add too much to your stress. Enjoy your sleep 21:58:09 * Herkamire is taking a political test 21:59:38 --- nick: _proteus -> proteusguy 22:00:50 Herkamire: which one? 22:03:46 --- quit: Nutssh ("Client exiting") 22:04:36 chandler: first one on google for "political test" (without quotes) http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/ 22:04:39 Nahh. 22:05:03 But I am kind of royally pissed off right now. 22:05:09 It's night time, and the 40m band is virtually *dead*. 22:05:19 Yet we have excellent propegation. 22:05:37 Except for a few CW contacts below 7.1MHz, there is not a lick of activity ANYWHERE on 40m. 22:06:08 Normally there's at least a *few* good SSB conversations going. :) 22:11:09 --- join: Serg (Serg_Pengu@212.34.52.140) joined #forth 22:11:18 mmm 22:11:23 my 20m transceiver is broken :( 22:11:27 not that it would matter 22:16:12 Herkamire: I just took that test and it has some significant flaws. A few of the questions presume false choices and they think Nelson Mandela is Libertarian rather than Authoritarian! Check out the Advocates for Self Government "World's Smallest Political Quiz" for a more accurate and short assessment. 22:17:58 proteusguy: OK 22:20:11 proteusguy: :) I put Yes on all those 22:20:52 haha congratulations. 22:21:45 gnight folx - been real. 22:21:55 --- nick: proteusguy -> proteus-sleeps 22:22:30 Doboe utro, Serg! 22:22:37 hi 22:23:06 proteus-sleeps: that first test shows similar results but not as drastic 22:23:45 kc5tja: how are your afterburners ;)) ? 22:23:55 Serg: Much better. 22:24:05 I'm able to hold down solid food now. 22:24:12 I'm still trying to thing of a more appropriate word than "drastic"... 22:25:40 kc5tja: i'm glad u getting better ;) 22:26:08 As am I. 22:26:25 here i got another radio: Soviet hi-class broadcasting unit, 40 mkV sens. 22:27:03 w/ it, i proved what i have _extremely_poor_ air conditions 22:27:24 Yeah, you keep going through all these different radios, but they all fail to do the job. 22:27:32 So it's just the area you live in has a lot of QRM? 22:27:58 at seller apartment, i heard alot of Asia and ex-colonial France and Spain speech w/ ethnic music 22:28:22 at my place - only VOA, Deutche Welle etc. ;(((( 22:28:46 yes, seems like hard QRM 22:28:54 Yeah. 22:29:01 * kc5tja can't receive much where I live either. 22:29:19 I tried transmitting at 30W morse code from my location to maybe 100 miles north of where I live on 40m, and I wasn't heard. 22:29:36 ;((( 22:29:50 Especially since my antenna is basically an NVIS antenna right now, that should definitely have been well within range of my listening partner. 22:29:59 at good conditions, 5W goes around globe 22:30:14 0.5W can go around the globe 22:30:31 with what antenna ? 22:30:37 * kc5tja contacted Florida from California with less than 100mW one day. 22:30:47 at 40m ? 22:31:19 The rig was a SW-40+, putting out 1.2W. But, it went through 100' of RG-58 coax, into a 6dB resistive attenuator, which then fed a wire about 20' long. :) 22:31:25 Yes, 40m, almost midnight. 22:32:20 Due to the 100' of coaxial cable, I estimate the total radiated power was less than 50mW, and that's not considering the losses of using a grossly inadequate antenna itself. 22:32:32 I have never been able to repeat the feat though. :) 22:32:42 I *still* didn't get that guy's QSL card either. >:( 22:32:46 Oh well. 22:33:07 Oh well. 22:33:08 here folks use overkill PA's, many ones breaking rules 22:33:20 I'm off to bed. Got school in the morning, and then I have to work. 22:33:52 Robert told me in SE even novice can have a _kilowatt_ 22:34:01 * kc5tja nods 22:34:11 Here, a tech+ can have full legal limits too. 22:34:30 ANyway, I'm outta here. 22:34:34 'night! 22:34:37 g'nite ! 22:34:43 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK") 22:38:52 anybody know how to connect to ircnet from the US? I get this message: K-lined: Please setup ident to connect here due to some major abuse from all over the int 22:47:00 in MIRC - File->Options->Connect->Identd->enable etc. 22:47:16 and make sure firewall allows connect to it from outside 22:47:27 if u are behind NAT - you lose 22:48:36 ident is kinda like 'callback' security measure, agains lamers abusing SOCKS proxies to hide their foul identity 22:49:47 Herkamire : he-e-e-ey ! 22:55:45 Herkamire, I've taken that political test. Comparing results? 22:58:49 ASau: fu.. politics by hot battleship cannon ! 23:00:02 Serg, you're late. 23:00:12 ASau: on self-gov test I got 100% liberaterian 23:00:21 The Battle has finished. 23:00:52 Hm. I've taken digitalronin. 23:01:16 It seems I'm more Gandhist than Stalinist. 23:01:19 ASau: is that the test you took? what results did you get? 23:01:46 Your political compass 23:01:47 Economic Left/Right: -7.00 23:01:47 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.26 23:02:14 ^^^ Result. 23:02:20 :))) 23:02:30 I've no words! 23:03:15 ahh, I got: right/left: 1 lib/auth: -6.something 23:03:42 "2/3 of Mandela + 1/3 of Hussein" is fine! 23:04:06 I don't know who mandella or stalin are 23:04:23 I've been ignoring politics most of my life 23:04:55 Nelson Mandela is president of South-African Union. 23:05:04 Or was. 23:07:11 I want freedom 23:07:11 It's very strange that they only used Gadhi and Stalin as examples. 23:07:29 I don't like the government taking 53% of my money 23:07:41 I don't appreciate most of what it does with my money 23:07:43 what country do you live in Herkamire? 23:07:47 usa 23:07:57 oh, I didn't realise USA took so much tax 23:09:38 hovil: if you add everything up (income, social security, sales, property, and a bunch of random things like the extra charges on your phone bill and electric bill) 23:09:47 oh right 23:09:57 here in RU laws have holes so we evade tax ;) 23:10:04 Herkamire, maybe you mix two different things: doing what you may and doing what you want. 23:10:20 highest tax rate in .au is 47% I think 23:10:23 ASau: huh? 23:10:23 for income 23:10:45 Serg, it will be a long conversation if we start explaining what are Rus. laws. 23:11:58 hovil: here it's normally about 27% of your paycheck (businesses pay 7% of this so your paycheck is reduced by only about 20% of what they claim to pay you if you work for a corperation) 23:12:29 Herkamire, there is "free as a bird" (I do what I want) and "free to choose" freedoms. 23:13:24 ASau: I think I (and everybody) should be free to do anything that does not harm or mislead others (or their belongings) 23:13:59 there may be exceptions or missing bits to that, but it's generally what I believe 23:15:24 Herkamire, these were ideas of anarchists. E.g., Makno (Civil War, 1918). 23:16:15 i think same ;) 23:16:44 Anarchy is unstable. 23:17:08 i'm not for anarchy 23:17:13 It requires _very_ clever members if society. 23:17:25 i'm for deriving all laws from that rule 23:18:05 How would you protect these laws from e.g. islamists? 23:18:39 And nationalists. 23:18:41 heh, how world protected them from USSR ;) ? 23:18:45 I think I'm liberaterian not anarchist 23:19:00 well set propaganda/infiltration, dissidents support etc.. 23:19:45 See example: Chechens and Svans are mulslims and nationalists. 23:19:56 even killing the leaders - but not the total war ! 23:19:57 Very closed societies. 23:20:29 the only good violence is the violence what _reduces_ total amount of violence in the world 23:20:40 I like the liberatarian ideas of having criminals pay for fixing the damage they've done, and the detectives, courts, etc required to catch/sentence them 23:20:46 They have no leaders or some leaders, not a singular. 23:21:31 throw in other leaders, w/ more peaceful religious ideas 23:21:51 Serg, well you accept violence in order to do something good. 23:22:05 Serg, you can't throw in. 23:22:20 Whom would you wanted to throw in? 23:22:24 Russian? 23:22:36 well, i accept - to reduce total amount of violence, not for abstract 'good' 23:23:04 They say: if you Svan then you fight. Else you are killed/prisoned. 23:23:22 ASau: frow in some ethnics influenced by western democracy 23:24:08 Serg, where do you want to find ones? 23:24:52 Being Svan means being muslim. 23:25:30 Being muslim and democratic is oxymoron. 23:25:52 afghanistan is a working example of anarchy 23:26:00 I don't want to live there 23:26:02 being 'muslim' outside and democratic inside ;))) 23:26:56 Serg, that can't be. 23:27:43 one evil empire - USSR - was destroyed from inside, and i believe what USA+ are capable of destroying another evil empire 23:27:53 from inside too 23:28:09 bombs are only making it solid, bombs are bad thing 23:28:27 Chechens and Svans are quite another nations, they have very little common with Russians et al. 23:29:01 They believe only in power. 23:29:26 If you've no power they believe they are right. 23:29:34 i seen good chechens who believe in culture and wisdom 23:29:47 at Moscow's Church of Scientology ;)) 23:29:56 more than 20 chechens ;))))) 23:30:28 You've not seen them in crowds. 23:30:38 * Serg is off the discussion - girls knocking to ICQ 23:32:01 Skinheads only take the same organisation as Chechens and Svans. 23:32:17 It's not their own invention. 23:32:58 BTW, almost the same is for Malqar and Qarachay. 23:56:54 --- quit: Serg () 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/04.02.24