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10:26:59 * warp0b00 is away: Sunny day, sweeping the clouds away, on my way to where the air is sweet!  Can you tell me how to get, how to get to Sesame Street?
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14:17:14 <madgarden> So, I was wondering if I should teach my kid Forth.
14:17:18 <madgarden> He's 5.
14:17:34 <madgarden> Or, would that just mess him up. ;)
14:18:00 <haqqer> he'll get bored
14:18:06 <fridge> can't be any worse than VB
14:18:12 <OrngeTide> i learned basic when i was 4. but i was very bored.
14:18:14 <zardon> hear about the windows loak?
14:18:16 <madgarden> Oh, he'll get bored of almost anything.
14:18:18 <zardon> leak
14:18:27 <zardon> win2k and nt4 sources
14:18:27 <fridge> get him a playstation
14:18:32 <madgarden> But, if I tied it into something fun, like drawing circles, boxes, etc.
14:18:32 <fridge> he'll be much more productive
14:18:34 <madgarden> We have a PS2.
14:18:41 <fridge> what more does he need
14:18:43 <madgarden> He's playing MAME next to me right now. ;)
14:18:57 <madgarden> Well, he's said before that he wants to program. He's a little game designer. 
14:18:59 <madgarden> Heh.
14:19:13 <OrngeTide> there are some language out there that are a little less boring for kids. (kids want to see graphics and write thier own games). 
14:19:18 <haqqer> basic is a fun language to start with
14:19:31 <haqqer> because it almost all makes sense
14:19:46 <OrngeTide> the idea of teaching a kid programming at an early age is good. it doesn't actually matter what language, even if it's some cheesy scripting language. they just need to get the basics down of things like conditionals and logic.
14:19:47 <madgarden> I can easily tie my Forthy scripting system as an interface to Allegro.
14:19:56 <haqqer> forth isn't really english oriented
14:20:03 <OrngeTide> logic is something a kid can apply later in life to all sorts of things
14:20:09 <madgarden> I'd say Forth is very English-oriented.
14:20:22 <madgarden> Especially when he can make whatever words he wants and string 'em together however he wants.
14:20:31 <OrngeTide> good forth words are very english oriented. some people write pretty cruddy backwards forth though
14:20:38 <haqqer> basic commands are more like english than forth is
14:20:45 <madgarden> All he needs is : ; IF/ELSE/THEN, FOR/NEXT, BEGIN/WHILE/REPEAT
14:20:46 <OrngeTide> basic is more like fortran
14:20:47 <haqqer> you don't have to master the idea of a stack to spit out a few shitty basic programs
14:21:05 <haqqer> PRINT "what you want to print" <- this is the way things are ordered
14:21:14 <haqqer> "what you want to print" PRINT <- this is somewhat less natural
14:21:19 <madgarden> I figure that thinking of the stack at an early age would be good for his mental processes... memory, analysis, etc.
14:21:29 <OrngeTide> yea. conditionals and conditional loops is all he really needs to learn at this stage. i'd really recommend one of those graphical programming langauges (i don't remember the name(s) of them)
14:21:35 <haqqer> it might well be, too. i mean 5 year olds have learned latin and shit in the past
14:21:42 <madgarden> OrngeTide: Like LOGO?
14:21:42 <haqqer> forth might be just the thing for yours
14:22:05 <OrngeTide> madgarden, it's sprite oriented. you can make a game and you give each sprite some kind of activity.
14:22:05 <madgarden> Well like I was saying, I can easily make a graphical Forth type thing with my scripting system and Allegro or SDL.
14:22:25 <madgarden> OrngeTide: Oh, like Game Maker or Scrolling Game Dev Kit?
14:22:26 <OrngeTide> the advantage to forth for kids is that it's interactive. :)
14:22:34 <OrngeTide> madgarden, right. 
14:22:58 <madgarden> Yea, I think interactive is another good reason.
14:23:03 <OrngeTide> kids like some direction to what they are doing. they usually have a hard time focusing if they are given too many options. (ever take a kid to a cafeteria?)
14:23:20 <madgarden> C64 BASIC was somewhat interactive for me as a kid. I would have loved Forth then.
14:23:47 <madgarden> OrngeTide: I agree with that... or when I have hundreds of MAME games for him to choose from. Who wants to play 1 game for more than 5 minutes?
14:24:04 <haqqer> forth might be better if it were presented as a "sooper powerful" upgrade, after his introduction with basic
14:24:04 <OrngeTide> the programmable legos are also pretty good the language for them is really simple. (too simple for me)
14:24:16 <haqqer> i remember becoming frustrated with basic after about a year of using it
14:24:20 <OrngeTide> madgarden, exactly.
14:24:22 <madgarden> With my own Forth at least I could target and streamline the language.
14:24:39 <madgarden> So there aren't 1000 options for him to worry about.
14:24:54 <madgarden> But he's 5, and he's just beginning to read. So it's not a huge issue just yet.
14:24:55 <OrngeTide> this is why my mother would never let me have more than 1 nintendo game for xmas because no matter how many games i got i'd get sick of them after like a month.
14:25:09 <madgarden> Yep, but with one game you play and play until you finish it.
14:25:13 <OrngeTide> exactly.
14:25:39 <madgarden> At least our GBA only has 2 games right now, so he knows there's no other option.
14:25:54 <OrngeTide> anyways. you can go the forth route. it depends on what kind of kid he is. when i was a kid i would've taken to forth. but that's because all my neighbors were girls and I was pretty sick of playing "House" so I would sit at home and play with my legos or my ti 99/4a
14:26:16 <madgarden> But yea. Imagine a graphical Forth where you could draw lines, change colours, load some sprites and move 'em around, play some sounds. I think it would be damn fun!
14:26:38 <OrngeTide> madgarden, i think there are some graphical versions of smalltalk.
14:26:42 <madgarden> OrngeTide: heh, yea all our neighbours are older girls here too. 
14:26:59 <madgarden> OrngeTide: I'm sure there are. I have to reduce my options too, though. ;)
14:27:04 <madgarden> Besides, I don't know Smalltalk.
14:29:07 <OrngeTide> smalltalk is easy. it was originally designed to teach gradeschool kids programming. objects are more tangible in smalltalk than something like C++
14:29:30 <fridge> I think the graphical version is called squeak
14:29:54 <madgarden> I have taken a very quick peek at squeak before.
14:29:58 <OrngeTide> you could probably teach him javascript. there is some guy that was listed on slashdot a few days about that is doing some integrated devel environment in any web browser for teaching javascript as a first language.
14:30:19 <madgarden> Well, I think Javascript would be too much for him at 5 years old... too much syntax.
14:30:32 <madgarden> BASIC is nice that way.
14:30:34 <OrngeTide> i have a hard time finding a forth environment that I can use to learn, i can't imagine finding one for a kid to learn.
14:30:38 <madgarden> (and Forth, of course)
14:30:49 <OrngeTide> madgarden, depends on how complex you want the javascript. :)
14:30:52 <madgarden> OrngeTide: Well, I've got my own. :)
14:30:58 <OrngeTide> that's cool. :)
14:31:19 <madgarden> And in fact, I could make my system not look like Forth at all. 
14:31:19 <OrngeTide> toss in some stimulating graphics and maybe an interactive tutorial and let him have at it.
14:31:34 <madgarden> Yep, exactly.
14:32:37 <OrngeTide> and if you're worried that 2 2 +  might confuse him. remember that kids are way more flexible than adults. he probably won't even think it's odd
14:32:51 <OrngeTide> although at 5 he's probably not quite doing addition yet.
14:32:53 <fridge> colorforth might confuse him
14:33:14 <OrngeTide> fridge, you'd be surprised.
14:33:22 <OrngeTide> colors and words combined might be easier.
14:33:41 <haqqer> how do i click butan ??
14:33:43 <OrngeTide> different ways of doing things usually only confuses adults.
14:34:44 <madgarden> Yea, he can add a bit now, so I think he'd be fine with some simple Forth stuff. I just wonder if RPN would mess with his learning infix at school.
14:35:37 <haqqer> if he becomes comfortable with postfix arithmetic, he'll be reluctant to leave it behind to learn infix at school
14:35:56 <fridge> yeah that could pose an issue
14:36:03 <fridge> make sure he knows how to convert
14:36:03 <haqqer> i learned to do multiplication using this odd "box" method when i was younger and refused to learn the "normal" way to multiply for many years
14:36:05 <fridge> =)
14:36:13 <madgarden> Unless he does a context switch based on the situation.
14:36:24 <madgarden> Hehe.
14:36:39 <haqqer> it's a matter of comfort. think of what the teacher would say :l
14:36:50 <madgarden> IMO postfix should be the standard everywhere anyway!
14:37:00 <madgarden> Yea, I will mention it to her.
14:37:17 <madgarden> Though, learning both ways can't be more confusing than learning 2 languages?
14:37:27 <madgarden> I imagine it would just make your mind more creative and nimble.
14:37:48 <haqqer> well, he's your kid to fuck up ;d~
14:37:52 <madgarden> Hehe.
14:37:59 <haqqer> tell us how it works out
14:38:06 <madgarden> Yea, he's a lot like me too. Crazy little twit. ;)
14:38:18 <madgarden> I will!
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15:37:39 <qFox> windows source leaked
15:37:46 <zardon> yeah
15:37:48 <qFox> lets port it to forth ;)
15:37:53 <zardon> this chan is logged
15:37:56 <zardon> heh
15:38:16 <captn_elite> ms is gonna rape your dog and kill your family
15:38:21 <zardon> yup
15:38:24 <qFox> oh
15:38:29 <zardon> Shock Troops
15:38:32 <qFox> eep?
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15:49:15 <Herkamire> why would anybody want to port windoze to anything?
15:49:26 <zardon> heh
15:49:36 <blockhead> to slow it down and eat disk space?
15:50:01 <blockhead> like, "man this 40 gig drive is so big, I'll never fill it up.  Think I'll put windows on"
15:50:08 <captn_elite> to play MORROWIND
15:50:22 <blockhead> captn_elite: you to?  That game rocks
15:50:41 * blockhead has been neverar twice :D
15:51:02 <captn_elite> hehe
15:51:08 <captn_elite> i haven't beat it yet
15:51:15 <captn_elite> but it's one of the main reasons i still have windows
15:51:54 <Herkamire> windoze source could help the whine (or however you spell it) folkes if they're not above looking
15:52:00 <blockhead> what are the odds of someone playing morrowind and using forth  :D
15:52:23 <captn_elite> i don't know, i don't really use forth. i just idle here (one of my duties as captn_elite)
15:53:09 <qFox> morrowind kinda sucked :\
15:53:11 * qFox ducks
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15:53:23 <Sonarman> hey arke
15:53:39 * blockhead looks aghast at qFox.  "no way dude!"
15:53:54 <arke> hi matt
15:54:09 <qFox> does so
15:54:14 <blockhead> :D
15:54:22 <qFox> gameplay wasnt what it should've been imo
15:54:39 <blockhead> qFox: did you play the otheer Elder Scrolls games?
15:54:48 <qFox> the game looked nice, and behaviour, ai etc was nice, but the gameplay didnt
15:54:52 <qFox> no, i dont think so
15:55:13 <qFox> i played morrowind for a bit, right untill i had to fly to another town (i believe?)
15:55:18 <blockhead> 'k.   I've noticed many people who have played the older Elder Scrolls games say that the gameplay in MW is not as good
15:55:22 <captn_elite> gameplay was pretty much the same as daggerfall
15:55:29 <qFox> havent played that
15:55:31 <captn_elite> but the world was a lot more beautiful
15:55:38 <qFox> but fighting wasnt very great imo
15:55:39 <captn_elite> i think the gameplay might even have improved a bit
15:55:46 <qFox> also action-response was stupid
15:55:51 <captn_elite> action-response?
15:55:58 <qFox> you could pick up stuff from the houses and sell it to them as long as they didnt see it
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15:56:13 <qFox> but if they did see it they'd go agro on your ass
15:56:27 <qFox> some other stuff i kinda forgot, but mainly those two
15:56:29 <captn_elite> heh
15:56:32 <qFox> fighting was... sux0r
15:57:18 <arke> you talking about morrowind?
15:57:38 <qFox> aye
15:57:40 <qFox> :)
15:57:55 <arke> heh, what a great bu strung out game
15:58:19 <blockhead> arke: you to?  :o
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15:58:28 <blockhead> Hey: how many morrowind people have we got here?
15:58:33 <qFox> lol
15:58:39 <arke> :)
15:58:46 <arke> You know whats fun?
15:58:51 <blockhead> morrowind?
15:58:54 <blockhead> :)
15:59:06 <qFox> i'm playing lyatwars on the n64 atm ;)
15:59:08 <arke> Walking through the castles, picking up tons of cool weapons, keeping the nice one for yourself and selling the rest.
15:59:25 <arke> I swear, I have never bought a weapon or armor in that game
15:59:31 <qFox> thats kinda what i said, but the moment someone sees you you're a goner...
15:59:40 <qFox> which is something that sux imo
15:59:54 <blockhead> arke: you know about the free ebony short ssword in vivec?
16:00:01 <arke> nope...
16:00:07 <arke> haven't even gotten very far yet.
16:00:14 <arke> done lots of stuff in balmora mostly
16:00:26 <qFox> oh and btw.. its like... way old :)
16:00:29 <blockhead> qFox: you can develop your sneak skill and then stealing becomes worthwhile
16:00:51 <arke> im pro gay marriage, btw.
16:00:52 <qFox> ya but i want a game to be consistent, because i rely on it
16:01:01 <captn_elite> the best thing to do is to drink a few alcoholic beverages and attack a daedric ruin
16:01:06 <captn_elite> full ebony armor at an early level = win
16:01:23 <captn_elite> also, acrobatics + athletics must be primary skills ;d
16:01:29 <arke> lol, this guy is talking about gay marriage and bringing up pedophilia and incest. wtf!?
16:01:55 <qFox> hm what game went gold before morrowind?
16:01:55 <qFox> because i remember i finished that game
16:01:55 <captn_elite> where did this gay shit come from?
16:02:03 <qFox> then started on morrowind because a friend was all whacky about it for a while
16:02:04 <arke> watching it on tv
16:02:32 * blockhead scrolls up.  gets confused
16:02:34 <qFox> and it just wasnt exactly my style, and having spent quite some hours on that other game i just discarded it after a while :)
16:02:41 <arke> :)
16:02:43 <captn_elite> the game takes a certain investment
16:02:48 <captn_elite> the first time i played, i dropped it after a week
16:02:48 <arke> yeah
16:02:56 <captn_elite> i came back a couple years later now
16:02:56 <arke> first time, I went with a mage
16:02:58 <captn_elite> it's been much better
16:02:58 <qFox> and i dont care for it, let them have gay marriages, why does anyone care anyway :s
16:03:00 <arke> that was a big mistake :)
16:03:17 <qFox> hm lets see
16:03:18 <captn_elite> you can make most characters into mages anyways ;l
16:03:20 <arke> then i went with a fighter (can't remember quite which, been a while)
16:03:23 <arke> and i did much better
16:03:25 <qFox> i remember a miniquest
16:03:26 <qFox> right at the start
16:03:26 <arke>  :P
16:03:33 <qFox> some guy hiding his stuff in a secret stash
16:03:39 <qFox> the tree stumb or water or something
16:03:45 <qFox> and i waited minutes till it got dark
16:03:50 <qFox> and spied on him from the watchtower
16:03:58 <blockhead> gFox: that was the fargoth quest
16:04:00 <qFox> and then at some point i restarted, died or whatever
16:04:07 <qFox> and i just went straight for that stash
16:04:07 <qFox> :p
16:04:40 <arke> qFox: yeah, i did that
16:04:52 <qFox> thats all i really remember
16:04:57 <arke> qFox: the guys name was like forgoth or something
16:05:03 <qFox> if you say so
16:05:04 <qFox> :)
16:05:07 <arke> yeah, fargoth :)
16:05:11 <blockhead> I like morrowind because of the modding.  adding to and changing the game is fun.  Kinda like forth lets you add to and change forth
16:05:12 <qFox> hm if i remember correctly
16:05:18 <qFox> he had something you wanted
16:05:20 <qFox> but you couldnt tell him
16:05:25 <qFox> and you couldnt piss him off
16:05:28 <blockhead> Frogoth: ring in barrel
16:05:34 <qFox> ohye a ring
16:05:35 <arke> the ring of healing
16:05:36 <captn_elite> yeah, like all the nudity patches
16:05:40 <captn_elite> omg omg breasts
16:05:42 <arke> i think
16:05:43 <qFox> lol
16:05:46 <arke> NUDITY PATCHES SWEET
16:05:51 <captn_elite> didn't know, arke? ;d
16:05:54 <qFox> hahaha
16:06:04 <arke> not for xbox though, eh?
16:06:05 <qFox> this is where i go away ;)
16:06:07 <qFox> lol
16:06:10 <arke> i only got the xbox version..
16:06:16 <arke> (or my uncle does, who lives with us)
16:06:22 <captn_elite> xbox is good, at least it runs at constant speed
16:06:29 <arke> :)
16:06:30 <blockhead> arke: if your xbox is chipped I think you can use mods.  This is third hand so I coudl be wrong
16:06:31 <captn_elite> i had to buy a stick of ram to make mine usable
16:06:48 <qFox> hmmm with the fight mechanics of morrowind i suppose a console version isnt half bad
16:06:54 <qFox> wouldnt miss the mouse much :s
16:06:55 <captn_elite> you could get the GOTY edition. i'm sure there must be some plugin-for-xbox support
16:07:06 <arke> dammit, please tell me, what does homosexuality have to do with pedophilia and incest!?
16:07:07 <captn_elite> ah, i've found that later on that combat can be quite tough
16:07:14 <captn_elite> turns into an odd pixel hunt sometimes ;(
16:07:25 <qFox> arke> narrowminded people think they are related.
16:07:40 <arke> combat is weird, you barely ever hit :(
16:07:40 <captn_elite> arke: you see, gay people like to screw the children they adopt
16:07:50 <arke> captn_elite: no they don't.
16:07:55 <blockhead> huh?
16:07:57 <captn_elite> no ?? :(
16:08:14 <Sonarman> lol
16:08:30 <arke> captn_elite: no they don't. there's just as many decent gay people than decent straight people percentage wise, in fact, i would say in relative terms theres more decent gays
16:08:32 * blockhead gets confused again.  like I'm missing every other line or something
16:08:43 <qFox> hahaha
16:09:17 <captn_elite> ok arke
16:09:21 <captn_elite> thank you for the education
16:09:34 <captn_elite> in the meantime, i have some highly important business in the otherland
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16:10:23 <arke> ...
16:10:24 <arke> ok
16:10:27 <arke> anyuway
16:10:53 <arke> cool, desktop TV
16:11:46 <arke> I think ill play a bit of Halo, bbiab
16:11:54 <arke> (i still have homework, just takking a break)
16:14:30 <arke> hrm, don't run the TV app while playing Halo..
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16:29:33 <qFox> halo was easy
16:29:34 <qFox> :p
16:29:56 <qFox> that hype wasnt worth it
16:30:29 <qFox> they made it sound like this kickass multi class (class as in, gametype) game 
16:30:54 <qFox> but it ended up to be "just another" shootmup with "unreal" gfx and the alternating racing part.
16:31:22 <qFox> which i probably did enjoy more then the shooting part, but whatever
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16:51:33 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja
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17:40:24 <arke_> hi
17:41:28 <kc5tja> Howdy
17:41:44 <zardon> greetings
17:43:37 <arke_> hiya
17:43:51 <kc5tja> Anyone knows when the US post office closes?
17:44:00 <arke_> no
17:44:07 <zardon> sorry
17:44:14 <kc5tja> I'll just have to take a drive.
17:44:19 * kc5tja has to get some boxes for his solar oven.
17:44:35 <kc5tja> I thought I had a few boxes here, but it seems I only have *one* that I can actually use.
17:45:52 <kc5tja> Anyway, I'll be back.
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18:15:44 <arke_> ho thin
18:15:58 <thin> ho arke
18:16:37 <arke_> whats up?
18:18:03 <thin> my penis
18:18:20 <thin> just kidding
18:18:23 <thin> my penis isn't up right now
18:18:49 <Sonarman> you're having an erection while bending over?
18:19:00 * blockhead thanks thin for sharing that.
18:19:02 <thin> i lean back on the comp
18:19:12 <thin> blockhead: got a response didn't it? ;)
18:19:15 <madgarden> penisForth!
18:19:21 <thin> lol
18:19:34 <thin> my comment awakens the channel and brings 4 ppl out of lethargy
18:19:40 <blockhead> is your forth to small?
18:19:44 <thin> penis penis penis
18:19:46 <madgarden> drop swap lube
18:19:50 <blockhead> maybe it needs all natural herbal supplments
18:20:14 <thin> it's a super small forth, but its expandable
18:20:16 <thin> and one size fits all
18:20:40 <thin> forthos for the desktop
18:21:14 * blockhead waves his forth around
18:21:17 <blockhead> :D
18:21:31 * thin waves blockhead around
18:21:52 <thin> remember, don't think too hard!
18:22:00 <madgarden> Hmm... thin... penisForth... hmm...
18:22:07 <qFox> hm
18:22:12 <qFox> first file i look into
18:22:16 <blockhead> heheh heh heheh heheh heh
18:22:18 <qFox> at the top
18:22:20 <qFox> the comment
18:22:24 <qFox> looks very promising...
18:22:30 <qFox>     Chandana Surlu   21-Jul-1996
18:22:30 <qFox>         Stolen from \\kernel\razzle3\src\security\msv1_0\nlmain.c
18:22:42 <qFox> i mean... lol?
18:22:51 <thin> who cares
18:22:55 <thin> besides its c
18:23:02 <thin> double the who cares
18:23:22 <qFox> well... "if" this is real, quite some ppl care ;)
18:24:15 <thin> stolen doesn't mean stolen though
18:24:26 <thin> nothing wrong with the second kind of stolen
18:24:44 <qFox> uhu
18:24:58 <qFox> i know what it can mean, its funny, thats all
18:26:36 <thin> penisForth
18:26:43 <thin> cuntForth
18:27:14 <Sonarman> that's what I440r's version of forth for the Palm would be: penIsForth
18:28:31 <madgarden> Hey, I want a pen with Forth on it. That would rule.
18:29:30 <blockhead> madgarden: that would!!!!
18:29:52 <madgarden> Hmm. Makes me think of a tablet in reverse. A computer pen, and you write on paper to access it.
18:30:06 * madgarden drifts into la-la land
18:30:14 <thin> guys forget about programming
18:30:18 <thin> programming is dead
18:30:26 <thin> the future is harnessing the power of evolution
18:30:31 <madgarden> I wonder if you could make a track-ball that small.
18:30:37 <thin> evolving algorithms, solutions, applications on the computer
18:30:55 <madgarden> Yep, and we just sit around and watch them evolve without understanding the results.
18:31:13 <thin> yup
18:31:20 <madgarden> We can go back to being monkeys! Ooo oo.
18:31:29 <thin> well we will understand eventually
18:31:34 <thin> science will catch up
18:31:35 <thin> no prob
18:31:40 <madgarden> monkeyForth
18:31:53 <thin> understanding ain't necessary, but we will strive for that
18:31:58 <thin> shutupForth
18:32:05 <madgarden> :(Forth
18:32:30 <thin> whateverForth
18:33:20 <madgarden> omgForth!
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18:36:27 <thin> sowhatsupForth
18:36:42 <thin> anybodybeingproductiveForth
18:36:49 <madgarden> playingnethackForth
18:37:02 <madgarden> Hmm, I wonder if Nethack needs a Forthy interface.
18:37:06 <thin> arethereanyproductiveforthersinthisworldForth
18:37:12 <blockhead> not me.  my forth project is stalled.  :(  stupid DOS file OI.
18:37:15 <blockhead> IO, even
18:37:50 * blockhead gives thin some spaces
18:38:05 <madgarden> How's this for productive Forthing: swap drop dup swap drop dup swap drop dup swap drop dup swap drop dup 
18:38:37 <madgarden> Well, I productively coerced someone else into writing a Forth. How's that?
18:39:30 <slava> hi all
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18:40:17 <blockhead> madgarden: huh?
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18:40:47 <arke> :)
18:41:09 <slava> madgarden, that would be compiled to a couple of machine instructions maybe in my language :)
18:41:30 <slava>   ok> [  swap drop dup swap drop dup swap drop dup swap drop dup swap drop dup  ] balance .
18:41:30 <slava> (I I -- O O)
18:42:00 <slava> its equivalent to nip dup
18:42:50 <madgarden> I never said efficient, just productive. :P In corporate terms, that means lots of perceived typing and overtime.
18:43:22 <slava> won't compile actually because it returns > 1 value -- I might work on that tonight actually
18:43:53 <madgarden> blockhead: huh? re coercion?
18:44:25 <blockhead> <madgarden> Well, I productively coerced someone else into writing a Forth. How's that?
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18:45:12 <arke> :)
18:45:24 <madgarden> How's that for productivity.
18:46:21 <arke> Hrm, I want to code something quick
18:46:26 <arke> heh
18:46:26 <arke> lol
18:46:34 <arke> I could code a Forth in jamagic
18:46:47 <madgarden> Or Gamemaker.
18:46:53 <arke> naah
18:46:56 <arke> jamagic is the best
18:46:56 <arke> :)
18:47:04 <blockhead> arke: code it in brainfuck (yes, it is a real language)  :D
18:47:05 <madgarden> If it's the best, then what challenge is it? :P
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18:49:28 <thin> stop coding forths
18:49:34 <thin> start coding forth
18:49:57 <thin> code a proper forth environment that will encourage productivity
18:50:08 <blockhead> I have stopped.  for today.  but only becasue I am stuck
18:50:10 <thin> ain't any good forth environments out right now
18:50:20 <madgarden> Forth *environment*
18:50:23 <madgarden> With a nice IDE.
18:51:34 <thin> interactive too
18:51:37 <thin> not an editor IDE
18:51:42 <slava> i'm working on something :)
18:51:48 <thin> either interactive or an editor/interactive hybrid
18:52:03 <slava> thin, this is exaclty what i'm doing
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18:52:36 <thin> slava: good luck
18:52:44 <arke_> unfortunately, it did not have a return stack... Don't really know how to do that in brainfuck
18:52:53 <blockhead> :D
18:53:00 <arke_> how could you do that?
18:53:06 <slava> arke_, neither does java, but i simulate one
18:53:13 <arke_> brainfuck only has a non-addressable linear memory
18:53:23 <slava> arke_, it has pretty much the same semantics
18:53:29 <arke_> slava: well, how to simulate two stacks in brainfuck, my friend? :)
18:53:33 <slava> arke_, except you cannot create return addresses and push then from the language
18:53:47 <slava> well you can but its tricky...
18:53:50 <slava> i don't know brainfuck
18:54:02 <blockhead> arke_: I;m sure you can do it, but I havn't the patience
18:54:09 <slava> blockhead, how's your forth?
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18:54:30 <blockhead> the web page claimes that BF is "turing complete", which implies (to me) that you can (with enough time and insanity) write anythign in it
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18:54:47 <blockhead> slava: my forth goes badly today.  I'm stuck on the file I/O words
18:55:30 <thin> blockhead: your problem is that you're coding it for DOS
18:55:31 <madgarden> thin: Interactive Development Environment then.
18:55:56 <blockhead> you know how you look at code and the more you look at it the more "right" it looks ... but it still doesn't work?  that's where I am at.
18:56:05 <slava> it doesn't even work? :)
18:56:10 <slava> i try to write an ugly working version first
18:56:15 <slava> then factor it over time :)
18:56:35 <blockhead> I'm at the ugly working vesion stage, I guess.
18:56:39 <slava> i think to be elegant, stack-based language code needs to 'simmer' for a while.
18:56:46 <slava> you can't just bang it out :)
18:57:12 <blockhead> slava: I strongly suspect you are right.
18:57:26 <madgarden> thin: A Forth IDE with memory dumps, variable/stack watch, breakpoints, and some sort of nice dictionary navigation would make Forth more accessible to the masses IMO. All the while hilighting the interactivity of Forth.
18:57:30 <madgarden> simmerForth
18:57:59 <slava> madgarden, i'm planning on having hyperlinks in the outer interpreter's output, and a debugger.
18:58:05 <madgarden> slava: Well isn't that what factoring is all about?
18:58:08 <blockhead> thin: I am coding it in dos for a very good reason.
18:58:13 <slava> madgarden, eventually, store source code in a database, like smalltalk
18:58:15 <thin> madgarden: sounds good
18:58:22 <thin> slava: sounds good
18:58:30 <thin> blockhead: doesn't sound good
18:58:31 <thin> :P
18:58:32 <madgarden> slava: Yes, I think hyperlinks is a great idea for Forth code navigation.
18:58:35 <madgarden> Each word is a link.
18:58:38 <slava> madgarden, yes
18:58:41 <thin> blockhead:  what you coding your forth in?
18:58:51 <blockhead> assembly language
18:58:54 <madgarden> You'd have to store the source in some tokenized format though.
18:59:05 <slava> madgarden, i already do, once loaded from disk and parsed.
18:59:20 <slava> this is how my 'see' works.
18:59:30 <madgarden> Otherwise, you'd get two links for stuff like :" hello"
18:59:33 <madgarden> ." rather
18:59:36 * warpzero is back (gone 06:06:42)
18:59:45 <madgarden> I still have to get my see/decompile working.
18:59:46 <slava> madgarden, i have a language syntax for string literals so this is not an issue.
18:59:58 <slava> madgarden, no immediate words either.
19:00:06 <madgarden> It's purely postfix?
19:00:10 <slava> yes
19:00:13 <madgarden> "hello" .
19:00:18 <slava> yes
19:00:22 <madgarden> Yea, mine does that too.
19:00:28 <madgarden> But I can also parse the input.
19:00:41 <slava> i only parse the input for a handful like : ; [ ]
19:00:43 <madgarden> So you define words that way? "foo" :
19:00:45 <slava> a few others
19:01:08 <madgarden> Oh crap... wife is starting the Survivor we taped, gotta go watch. :-/ bbl. Keep typin'! ;)
19:01:19 <thin> slava: so is your "idea
19:01:21 <thin> er
19:01:31 <slava> madgarden, for example : sq dup * ; defines word "sq"
19:01:31 <thin> slava: so is your "ide" gonna be an interactive/editor hybrid?
19:01:36 <slava> : and ; is like a forth
19:01:46 <slava> thin, yes, once the database is done it will assume the editor's role too
19:01:50 <arke_> hrm...
19:02:01 <slava> thin, typing "wordname" ed will start an embedded editor widget in the outer interpreter loop window
19:02:09 <arke_> a completely integrated forth environment, consisting of forth, editor, and project management
19:02:41 <slava> it will make working on the game a joy
19:02:59 <slava> right now i don't really take advantage of the dynamic nature of the language, i just restart the game which reloads the entire library when i make a change.
19:03:00 --- quit: arke (Nick collision from services.)
19:03:01 --- nick: arke_ -> arke
19:03:48 <warpzero> kc5tja: did you check out the document in the topic?
19:03:57 <kc5tja> No.
19:04:09 <kc5tja> I'm actually somewhat busy at the moment.
19:05:09 <thin> slava: ya want it seamless/integrated..  one layer interface..  don't want an editor popping up and taking you away from the interactive interface
19:07:27 <arke> is there a doc somewhere on how to use IRC?
19:07:37 <arke> erm, well, the way IRC clients/servers interact?
19:07:46 <Sonarman> there's an RFC
19:07:52 <arke> link
19:08:03 <Sonarman> just search for "IRC RFC"
19:08:27 <arke> I'm trying to create a remote controlled IRC client
19:08:45 <arke> well
19:09:02 <arke> actually, an IRC client that uses a remote ssh relay
19:09:29 <arke> or maybe I'll just do some IRC tinkering to get familiar with net coding
19:15:16 <arke> whats an IRC line end, CRLF? CR? LF?
19:15:16 <arke> \0?
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19:20:16 <Sonarman> http://www.irchelp.org/irchelp/rfc/chapter2.html#c2_3
19:22:27 <arke> yay, connected to freenode :)
19:22:43 <arke> and disconnected.
19:22:44 <arke> :)
19:22:46 <arke> thanks matt
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19:24:16 <Sonarman> what language are you doing this in?
19:24:39 <Herkamire> arke: crlf iirc
19:25:01 <Sonarman> yes
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19:28:25 <Sonarman> hi ree
19:31:20 <blockhead> 'night all
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19:32:51 <thin> that's great ree
19:32:56 <thin> automatic reconnection?
19:33:03 <thin> resets your idle time?
19:33:09 <thin> tricks me?
19:33:11 <thin> liaR!!!!
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19:48:50 <kc5tja> Solar oven construction has officially begun.  The inner box is made and done, and the outer box is about 50% done.
19:49:00 <kc5tja> I have to wait for some glue to set and dry before continuing, unfortunately.
19:49:13 * kc5tja was kind of hoping that I could complete the whole thing in one evening.
19:49:55 <proteusguy> What you gonna cook besides mushrooms? Got any recipes in mind?
19:53:18 <kc5tja> Vegetables, some rice perhaps.
19:53:34 <kc5tja> There are tons of recipies on the Internet, but they go beyond what I want, really.
19:53:43 * kc5tja was going to experiment with cooking pasta though.
19:54:52 * proteusguy ponders inventing the solar Atkins diet potential... :)
19:58:33 <kc5tja> You know, I thought of cooking burgers in the solar oven, actually.
19:58:56 <kc5tja> I mean, hotdogs are an all-time, classic favorite for testing solar ovens.
19:59:38 <proteusguy> I'm very curious as to how it works out for you. Such a device may be a great option for cooking on board a sailboat.
20:03:15 * kc5tja nods
20:03:34 <kc5tja> Assuming this little oven works out, I am thinking of building a smaller oven for use actually *inside* my car.
20:03:50 <kc5tja> This way, I can be cooking lunch while I'm in school, then eat lunch at my car, then go back to classes afterwards.
20:04:02 <kc5tja> Right now, lunch at school is on the order of $6 to $10/day.  Expensive.
20:07:10 <kc5tja> Though for the time being, I don't see it happening yet.
20:07:21 <kc5tja> Parking is too random for me, and I often ride my bike to school.
20:07:40 <proteusguy> So is this a solar oven or just a thermal oven? How you getting direct sunlight inside the car?
20:07:58 <kc5tja> The windows?
20:08:13 <kc5tja> The car is a Mazda RX-7, and the rear hatch is entirely made of glass.
20:08:20 <kc5tja> (yes, the entire rear hatch)
20:08:53 <kc5tja> But the car thing is just something of a convenience.
20:08:59 <kc5tja> It's not important to me that much.
20:09:03 * proteusguy drives an RX-7 as well.
20:09:24 <kc5tja> My primary concern is my solar oven for use here at home.
20:09:25 <kc5tja> :)
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20:57:21 <kc5tja> I do have to say this much, though -- when I put my hand in the aluminum-lined box, I can very readily feel my hand heat up.
20:57:35 <kc5tja> The Al-foil refects the infrared radiation from my hand back onto itself.
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21:47:30 <Herkamire> kc5tja: cool :)
21:47:46 <arke> hayi
21:47:48 <arke> hiya
21:48:01 <Herkamire> hi
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21:57:29 <kc5tja> :)
21:59:14 <Herkamire> kc5tja: I didn't know there was enough heat radiation coming off your hand that you could feel it
21:59:48 <kc5tja> You can definitely feel another person's hand next to yours, if they place it above the back of your hand, about an inch away.
22:00:12 <arke> you can power a stirling engine with the heat from your hand.
22:00:17 <kc5tja> Yep.
22:00:23 <arke> which is cool
22:00:29 <kc5tja> Though you'll get, maybe, a few milliwatts out of the shaft with it.  :D
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22:13:42 <Herkamire> someday, I'm going to have lots o money, and therefore time
22:13:50 <kc5tja> Not me.
22:13:56 * kc5tja used to have such dreams.
22:13:59 <kc5tja> I even came close once.
22:14:08 <kc5tja> But I have no illusions of prosperity anymore.
22:14:21 <Herkamire> oh come off it
22:14:45 * kc5tja is being rather serious.
22:15:14 <kc5tja> Without fail, every time I get any amount of cash saved up, something happens where I have to spend it all.
22:15:17 <Herkamire> I know
22:15:48 <kc5tja> I've had substantially less than $2K in my bank account for pretty much my entire life, except for when I worked at Hifn, where I did break the $10K mark.  But then, in as little as a year, *POOF!* gone.
22:16:41 * Serg 's stats are growing since 1999 w/o fall
22:16:50 <Serg> but too slow ;))
22:17:01 <kc5tja> Serg: Don't get greedy.
22:17:42 <Herkamire> my bank balance went from 7K to 3.5K in these past 10 months
22:18:20 <Herkamire> I had a wonderful rest from working much, and I built a business
22:19:59 <warpzero> is there a command line tool to convert decimal to hexadecimal?
22:20:02 <Herkamire> now I'm swamped with work
22:20:15 <Herkamire> warpzero: gforth
22:20:24 <warpzero> oh well whats the command in gforth then
22:20:35 <Herkamire> 1234 hex .
22:20:49 <warpzero> how do i put it on a pipe
22:20:59 <Herkamire> : h. base @ hex . base ! ;
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22:21:39 <Herkamire> 183843 h.
22:21:39 <Herkamire> can also do it with bc
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22:21:46 <Herkamire> just type "obase=16" and all output will be in hex.
22:21:49 <Serg> Herkamire: u forgot SWAP ;))
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22:22:03 <Herkamire> just type a number and hit return
22:22:20 <warpzero> i need it from a shell
22:22:21 <Herkamire> Serg: oops, sure did.    : h. base @ swap hex . base ! ;
22:23:00 --- join: _proteus (proteusguy@111.sub-166-153-48.myvzw.com) joined #forth
22:23:34 <Herkamire> warpzero: don't know of anyting. unless this makes you happy: echo '1234 hex . bye' | gforth
22:24:21 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
22:25:01 <warpzero> Herkamire: date -d "12-Feb-2004 20:07" +%s | perl -le'print sprintf("%X", <>)'
22:25:33 <warpzero> Herkamire: you got beat by perl :(
22:25:48 <Herkamire> wait... there's a shell program "printf"
22:26:21 <warpzero> r u srs
22:26:42 <Herkamire> part of "coreutils" package on my system (gentoo)
22:26:56 <kc5tja> I have it too, but I lack a manpage for it.
22:27:22 <Herkamire> I just remembered doing "man printf" expecting documentation for a C function, and seeing that
22:27:59 <kc5tja> Oops, there it is.  Fascinating.
22:28:11 <kc5tja> Anyway, I have to code for my customer.
22:32:03 --- nick: _proteus -> proteusguy
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22:39:07 --- quit: proteusguy ("Leaving")
22:47:06 <kc5tja> Wow, OK, maybe I won't be coding for my customer tonight.  I'm just pooped.
22:47:13 * kc5tja is going to bed.
22:47:21 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK")
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/04.02.12