00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.02.08 00:08:48 --- quit: cmeme (Connection reset by peer) 00:09:45 --- join: cmeme (~cmeme@216.184.11.30.unused.swcp.com) joined #forth 00:18:18 --- quit: cmeme (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 00:19:53 --- join: cmeme (~cmeme@216.184.11.30.unused.swcp.com) joined #forth 00:20:27 --- quit: cmeme (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 00:23:54 --- join: cmeme (~cmeme@216.184.11.30.unused.swcp.com) joined #forth 00:46:04 --- join: networm (~networm@L0656P12.dipool.highway.telekom.at) joined #forth 02:51:01 --- join: Zonker (~Zonker@24-205-238-236.slo-cres.charterpipeline.net) joined #forth 02:52:03 --- part: Zonker left #forth 02:55:13 --- quit: Nutssh ("Client exiting") 04:00:44 --- quit: networm (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 04:20:58 --- join: networm (~networm@L0626P12.dipool.highway.telekom.at) joined #forth 05:04:56 --- quit: Robert ("brb") 05:08:43 --- join: Robert_ (~snofs@c-185a71d5.17-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) joined #forth 05:09:15 --- nick: Robert_ -> Robert 05:38:35 --- join: fridge (~hovil@CommSecureAustPtyLtd.sb1.optus.net.au) joined #forth 05:39:19 Hi 05:39:52 hi 08:26:27 --- quit: cmeme (Connection reset by peer) 08:34:15 --- join: cmeme (~cmeme@216.184.11.30.unused.swcp.com) joined #forth 09:38:59 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@66-91-231-74.san.rr.com) joined #forth 09:39:00 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja 10:10:22 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK") 10:15:16 --- join: haqqer (wossname@HSE-Sherbrooke-ppp79884.qc.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 10:19:36 --- join: dubious (~marc@209.71.234.197) joined #forth 10:20:32 * fridge sweats 10:21:47 hehe you read from computer stupidity how there was 150 celsius temp in some server room and they insisted shutting down computers? 10:21:50 :) 10:26:10 nope, sounds likely though 10:26:28 we have three temp monitors in our server room, one of them reported it to be 76C 10:26:58 the other two didn't, I walked in and didn't die, so that confirmed it! 10:29:38 whats the highest survivable temperature? 10:30:16 sup dudes 10:30:22 hey 10:30:25 nordics regularly hold competitions to see who can stand the hottest sauna 10:30:31 Well above 100C 10:30:52 what 10:31:40 is forth programming without local variables (or using globals to store state for that matter) practical? 10:31:53 doing everything on the stack i mean 10:32:31 I guess that depends on what you do, but usually it's OK. 10:32:51 I tend to cheat a bit often, though. ;)= 10:33:17 i'm trying to think how you would code stuff in a postfix lang where you need 5 ot 6 values at once, say for a collision detection algorithm... 10:34:06 The politically correct answer is to factor your code... but in reality I tend to break down and cry, and then use C. 10:35:57 I usually just cry 10:42:50 --- join: |Chris| (~chris@wbar8.lax1-4-11-099-104.dsl-verizon.net) joined #forth 10:42:55 <|Chris|> hiya 10:43:01 hey |Chris| 10:43:04 <|Chris|> anybody familiar with ogl and/or X here? 10:43:14 <|Chris|> slava: hi :) hows your java forth-like going? 10:45:51 |Chris|, i'm familiar with opengl, developing for it right now 10:46:37 |Chris|, i haven't done that much on factor lately, but i'm going to do some work on the compiler later today. 10:46:53 <|Chris|> slava: Cool. How exactly does, lets say, a Glut/X program interface using GL with the 3D hardweare? 10:47:04 depends on your hardware 10:47:21 if you have an nvidia card, you use the proprietary drivers which consist of a kerenl module and xfree86 module and custom libGL 10:47:31 some cards are supported by the open source DRI 10:47:42 <|Chris|> ATI cards are, right? 10:47:45 then you need to build DRI in your kernel, make sure dri xfree moduel is loaded 10:47:55 with DRI the standard Mesa libGL is used 10:48:12 <|Chris|> er, i thought mesa was software 10:48:38 if dri is not available 10:48:48 <|Chris|> Oh, OK. 10:48:48 eg using mesa with nvidia cards will result in software rendering since nvidia cards don't use dri 10:49:06 <|Chris|> (damn nvidia, I've heard only bad things about them :) ) 10:49:13 well the drivers work fine 10:49:19 <|Chris|> :) 10:50:05 <|Chris|> Well, what exactrly does 2D GL provide for you? 10:50:40 alpha blending, hardware affine transforms, lighting, stencil buffer, lots of stuff 10:51:37 --- join: qFox (C00K13S@cp12172-a.roose1.nb.home.nl) joined #forth 10:52:32 <|Chris|> well, i meant only 2D now, not 3D ... does it provide efficient lines, shapes, etc? 10:52:48 yes 10:52:57 all those things i mentioned are useful for 2d 10:53:12 eg, rotating sprites, semi-transparent sprites 10:53:38 <|Chris|> cool 10:53:45 <|Chris|> what about efficient overlap? 10:53:52 what? 10:54:13 <|Chris|> (like, you got object A overlapping B partially, so its gonna just blit the part of B being displayed instead of the whole thing?) 10:54:23 <|Chris|> in any way or shape 10:54:28 i'm not sure 10:54:31 <|Chris|> it probably should, since it needs that for 3D :P 10:54:35 <|Chris|> Hrm... 10:54:44 fir 3d you have to draw stuff in the proper order 10:56:57 <|Chris|> Hrm. 10:57:14 <|Chris|> How neat would be an X server implemented in 2D GL? 10:58:06 x toolkit you mean? 10:59:38 <|Chris|> well, the graphics part 10:59:52 <|Chris|> the whole X server 11:00:06 <|Chris|> (not xf86, a new one which uses hardware GL as its rendering backsystem) 11:00:31 my X11 says something about using XAA at startup, i think 11:00:59 so maybe it means, it already is using DRI.. 11:01:07 no XAA is 2d acceleration on the video card 11:01:09 bit blit etc 11:01:46 ah, ok. and i guess, it's also only used for X internal stuff, and not exposed to applications 11:02:30 <|Chris|> slava: so, what do you think abouyt that? 11:02:59 <|Chris|> slava: (OT: can you give me l33t java skillz? :P whats a good java platform for linux?) 11:03:03 |Chris|, see the evas library, this already exists 11:03:14 also cairo is another 2d library with an opengl backend 11:03:42 <|Chris|> but those are libraries, not actual X11-api-providing graphics systems 11:03:44 java on linux: get jdk 1.4.2 from sun. don't use gcj, kaffe; the OSS vm's are not good enough yet 11:03:45 <|Chris|> ^_^ 11:04:13 <|Chris|> Ok :) 11:09:51 <|Chris|> java2 - Java(TM) 2 SDK, Standard Edition 11:09:54 <|Chris|> would that work? :) 11:10:22 yes 11:10:33 if you just want to run apps, get the JRE its smaller. JDK also has the compiler, etc 11:11:09 <|Chris|> well, thats what I want :) 11:12:07 <|Chris|> so what do you think about an X server written literally in GL? 11:12:25 i don't see the point as X servers already support GL 11:12:31 if you want to use GL, code for the GL api 11:12:39 retrofitting the X api on top of GL is not the best idea IMHO 11:13:11 <|Chris|> wouldn't it make it faster? :) 11:13:34 <|Chris|> hardware lines are gonna be faster than software lines, no matter how good the algorithm, methinks 11:15:10 yes but hardware lines might already be used due to XAA 11:15:55 <|Chris|> Ok.. 11:16:00 <|Chris|> what alpha stuff? :) 11:16:44 <|Chris|> if you use GL, i think you can probably get true hardware transparency, and very fast at that :) 11:16:57 yes 11:17:06 my game has a transparent terminal for the scripting language :) 11:18:20 <|Chris|> well, there ya go, theres one advantage :) 11:18:34 <|Chris|> then theres probably lots more i just cant think of as im not familiar with OGL 11:22:35 grrrrr, I hate web browsers 11:22:45 <|Chris|> Yes. 11:22:50 <|Chris|> theres no decent one out there. 11:23:00 <|Chris|> slava: clipping!!! 11:23:00 mozilla serves my needs fine... 11:23:11 |Chris|, yes, i use stencil buffers for this in the game to do sinking sprites 11:23:12 <|Chris|> slava: thats it, clipping, GL has hardware clipping 11:23:28 for each car, etc, there is a set of monochrome frames that clip the sprite when it sinks 11:23:36 <|Chris|> slava: that would make window display easy as overlap can be handled in hardware 11:24:50 well the stencil buffer is a bitmap is clearing/redrawing it for each window might be too slow 11:25:15 <|Chris|> Hrm, GL has HW blitting 11:25:19 <|Chris|> yay 11:25:19 <|Chris|> :) 11:26:19 <|Chris|> then hardware rotating, scaling, zooming, skewing, 11:26:41 <|Chris|> Yep, X server in GL would be teh sw33t 11:35:23 why would you want hardware rotated windows? :) 11:39:57 it impresses the ladies 11:43:20 <|Chris|> indeed :) 11:43:34 <|Chris|> Well, see here, not necessarily Windows, but also Images. 11:43:39 <|Chris|> images inside of the windows 11:43:40 <|Chris|> haha 11:43:40 <|Chris|> :) 11:44:16 <|Chris|> X11 has about 8-9k of functions though, maybe that can be stripped :P 12:54:49 ok, my wiki is done: http://herkamire.com/jason/ 12:54:50 --- quit: networm (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 13:07:16 --- quit: fridge ("Leaving") 13:09:33 Herkamire, how's herkforth going? 13:09:39 --- part: dubious left #forth 13:12:01 slava: slowly for the last couple weeks 13:12:10 Herkamire, yeah, same here :( 13:12:22 I've had way too much work, and I made the wiki instead 13:12:44 development of factor is directly tied to the game, and so far it suffices for the game's needs, until i add more complex scripted stuff to the game at least 13:12:48 i want to finish the compiler, and do a debugger 13:13:23 oh sup Herkamire 13:13:32 hi warpzero 13:13:42 NOOO IT NEEDS TO BE NAMED MICKY 13:14:24 warpzero: hehe 13:14:57 warpzero: your micky declaration would last a lot longer in the sandbox 13:15:21 I HATE YOU 13:15:33 it doesn't really have a name 13:16:05 within the pages it's reffered to as "this wiki" 13:16:26 fine 13:16:29 be that way 13:16:32 ill make my own wiki 13:16:36 and name it micky 13:18:03 go for it :) 13:18:08 I had fun making mine 13:18:20 I'm having a hard time not messing with it right now. I need to do some work 13:18:22 Herkamire, is yours written in forth? 13:19:39 slava: no, mod_perl 13:19:55 I don't have a forth environment hooked to apache 13:21:01 I haven't really done string manipulation in forth anyway 13:34:10 --- quit: Herkamire ("Lost terminal") 13:35:48 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@h000094d30ba2.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 13:36:07 I'm an idiot 13:38:51 me too 13:40:39 slava: but you didn't quit X while in the middle of 8 things now did you? 13:40:45 :) 13:59:56 --- join: Sonarman (~matt@adsl-64-160-166-54.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 14:02:09 --- join: fridge (~fridge@dsl-203-33-163-141.NSW.netspace.net.au) joined #forth 14:24:33 man. i don't understand why IsForth doesn't recongize numbers with 5 6 7 8 or 9 in them. 14:24:42 2 2 + . \ works 14:24:50 6 9 * . \ does not 14:24:56 Heh. 14:25:01 That's odd. 14:25:10 What error do you get? 14:25:16 yea. i kicked off an IM to mark about it. 14:25:36 6 9 * . 54 ok 14:25:59 6 ? 14:26:07 it thinks it's a word 14:27:06 for now i'm just using bigforth. :( 14:27:08 Oh. 14:27:13 That's very odd, heh 14:27:14 the one i'm using (v1.14b) doesn't have that problem 14:27:18 What version are you using? 14:27:26 V1.14b 14:27:27 I'm using that version, too. 14:27:35 What system? 14:27:42 maybe your nasm is buggy? 14:28:05 nasm 0.98.38 14:28:06 NASM version 0.98.36 compiled on May 7 2003 14:28:38 i think isforth should be written in isforth rather than nasm myself. :) 14:29:00 In time, in time.. 14:39:08 OrngeTide: I think I440r defined constants for the low numbers 14:39:26 OrngeTide: so it could be that the number interpreting is not working at all for you 14:41:11 what can I do with these Previous/Next buttons so they don't look so stupid? 14:41:13 http://jason.herkamire.com:5000/americanportraitartist/gallery10.html 15:34:34 Herkamire, don't have the text underlined. 15:35:30 Herkamire, seems like everything on your page is underlined. if everything is a link then maybe you don't have to highlight that fact. :) 15:37:07 OrngeTide: huh? 15:37:11 only links are underlined 15:37:43 Herkamire, right. everything is a link on that page. 15:37:49 so everything is underlined. 15:38:20 things like "previous" "next" "home" etc.. are obvious they are clickable because of their context. so you might have a cleaner looking interface if you don't mark them with underlines as well. 15:39:27 I see. I could definately remove the underline from previous/next 15:48:53 --- quit: haqqer () 15:54:10 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@66-91-231-74.san.rr.com) joined #forth 15:54:17 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja 16:12:25 --- join: Nutssh (~Foo@gh-1177.gh.rice.edu) joined #forth 16:45:09 --- join: blockhead (default@dialin-30-tnt.nyc.bestweb.net) joined #forth 17:28:48 sup kc5tja, Nutssh, blockhead? 17:28:58 hi all 17:29:10 hi. 17:29:27 Nothing much. Avoiding work, wishing the weekend was tomorrow, that sort of thing. :) 17:29:44 Nutssh: Yeah :( me too. 17:29:49 warpzero: not much, except I started writing my forth :D 17:29:59 omg 17:30:04 stop it 17:30:06 all of you 17:30:26 * blockhead stops 17:30:33 too many forths! 17:30:38 blockhead, cool 17:30:57 who will come up with the forth to rule them all? :) 17:31:18 * blockhead detects a LOTR reference? 17:31:19 * kc5tja is researching which plants to grow starting this spring. 17:31:36 * kc5tja is thinking of starting a small container garden with a few pepper plants, maybe a few onion plants too. 17:31:50 mmmmmm, peppers :) 17:31:55 kc5tja, cannabis plants too :) 17:32:09 Cannabis requires a Federal license to grow. No thanks. 17:32:22 its not illegal if you don't get caught :) 17:32:44 Otherwise, I'd have no problems growing industrial Cannabis, squeezing the oils out of the seeds (and turning it into biodiesel), then gassifying the remainder of the plant to produce methane or ethane gas. 17:32:58 slava: no, it is illegal if you don't get caught. 17:39:18 kc5tja: how about garlic? 17:41:10 I haven't considered garlic. But then, I wouldn't know what to do with so much garlic. :) 17:41:31 :D 17:42:08 Don't write FORTH, write a useful application. 17:42:52 but I will write a useful program ... in my forth :D 17:43:03 blockhead, exactly :) 17:43:08 that application will be an editor :) 17:44:06 well, yeah, writing a text editro will be cool, but I was thinking like for processing audio files 17:44:20 cool 17:44:44 processing audio is easy if you jsut work with files. nor drivers to wrrry about, no real time. you can do some nice things 17:44:50 with my lang i want to write a "next generation" command line/GUI mix which will be the IDE for the langauge and also a personal info manager for addresses, music, todo's, etc -- all backed by a database 17:45:38 slava: so you're writing a minimal no frills language :D 17:46:34 all kidding aside: "backed by a database"? You mean treat the database as sort of a super block file? 17:48:35 blockhead, the language is minimal, the IDE is layered on top 17:48:40 blockhead, code will be stored in the database 17:48:46 blockhead, define a word at the interpreter, and it persists 17:48:58 interesting! 17:49:37 along with a version control type thing in case you fuck up 17:51:21 --- quit: proteusguy ("Leaving") 17:51:54 :) 17:56:05 ok> [ swap 3 * 6 - rot ] balance . 17:56:05 (I I I -- O O O) 17:56:50 no more staring at code trying to figure out why you're getting stack overflow/underflow! 17:57:14 the compiler had this for a while but just now i made it exposed to user programs 17:58:01 * blockhead hasn't gone as far as a compiler or outer interpreter yet. :) 17:58:13 hehe 17:59:14 --- join: proteusguy (proteusguy@240.sub-166-153-182.myvzw.com) joined #forth 17:59:23 but my "hand compiled" secondary words run. the inner interpreter runs. the branching words run. 18:00:16 it's getting kinda porky though: already passed 500 bytes 18:01:13 that's "big"? 18:01:20 * slava hangs his head in shame as he looks at his bloatware 18:01:39 well, considering how little is in there (liek 20 words), I thought it would be smaller 18:02:13 slava: don't bang your head, I'm coding it in assembler. I assume you are using a higher level language 18:02:53 blockhead, java 18:02:55 * slava ducks 18:03:04 blockhead, compiling code to JVM bytecode which the JVM then transforms into native assembly 18:03:12 mega porky, but at least you can run it anywhere on any hardware/OS 18:03:25 blockhead, with gcj i can produce native executables 18:04:22 by native, you mean like a java run time thingie is not needed to run it? 18:04:34 blockhead, yes 18:04:47 nice. I like that 18:05:01 java gives me portability and garbage collection for free 18:05:14 my language uses cons cells a lot 18:06:16 "cons cells"? 18:06:35 how to describe... :) 18:06:40 struct cons { void*car; void*cdr; } 18:06:44 lisp! :) 18:06:56 (car (cons 'a 'b)) ==> 'a 18:06:58 * blockhead falls over, faints. 18:07:00 (cdr (cons 'a 'b)) ==> 'b 18:07:13 A Cons-cell is just a linked list node. 18:07:23 struct cons { void *car; struct cons *cdr; }; 18:07:44 * blockhead melts into a mass of protoplasm 18:07:44 kc5tja, cdr can be anything not just another node 18:07:52 blockhead, arrays are more to your taste? 18:07:54 slava: Irrelavent. 18:07:56 blockhead, i have those too :) 18:08:26 The idea of the struct definition is to show intent. Constantly having to typecast the cdr is most annoying. 18:08:29 :) 18:08:36 dynamic typing r0x0rs 18:08:47 blockhead, a big diff between my language and forth is that in mine objects know their type. 18:09:19 * blockhead nods. That I can comprehend 18:09:48 blockhead, also code can be pushed onto the stack, using [ ... ] notation and passed around, then called using the 'call' primitive. 18:10:05 blockhead, this is how control structures are implemented. you cannot define immediate words yourself, theres only a few builtin ones like : ; [ ] 18:10:16 ptr to code, or an entire block of code? 18:11:00 * blockhead has been thinking about the immediate word thing. Still hasvn't decided how to handle/implement that 18:11:37 --- quit: proteusguy (Operation timed out) 18:12:16 blockhead, its a pointer to a linked list whose nodes are this code 18:12:29 slava: the ability to use [ ] to define code and push it on the stack reminds me of False 18:12:32 blockhead, the compiler detects when this is passed as a literal to 'call' and actually compiles it, so the list won't be around 18:12:53 blockhead, but you can dynamically construct linked lists and evaluate them. this gets very hairy very quickly; but continuations are done this way. 18:13:04 hence the need for garbage collection 18:13:28 yes 18:14:04 --- join: proteusguy (proteusguy@119.sub-166-153-166.myvzw.com) joined #forth 18:20:50 i'm annoyed at code duplication between the compiler's handling of the java interfacing primitives, and the interpreter's 18:23:20 * blockhead nods. once he get to the interpeter and compiler, He'll be running into problems like that 18:23:36 i have 3 main components 18:23:43 1 -- pure interpreter, that interpretes link list quotations 18:23:49 2 -- compiler that translates these to JVM bytecode 18:23:51 3 -- outer interpreter 18:24:08 1 & 2 have a lot in common and this needs work... 18:24:46 JVM byte codes? Hmm: I wonder if I could code direct in JVM byte codes using a hex editor. This is a new idea for me 18:25:07 it would have the advantage of ASM coding, but would be portable 18:25:17 JVM bytecode is like assembly except there is unlimited registers, and methods are invoked by name 18:25:29 and there is opcodes for new object creation and usch 18:25:44 "methods" - so it's still object oriented 18:25:46 ? 18:26:25 JVM deals with classes and methods yes... 18:26:31 'k 18:26:54 also its interesting that javac does almost no optimization; the JVM does all the tricks like eliminating common subexpressions, peephole optimization and so on 18:27:04 so i get an optimizing compiler for free 18:27:12 :) 18:27:14 the jvm is quite fast; its the crappy gui libs that give the perception java is slow 18:27:40 * blockhead nods. a crappy lib will slow anything down :( 18:28:06 i'm working on game in java but using opengl graphics 18:28:08 it rocks 18:28:28 opengl rocks. SOmeday I will have to learn it. 18:28:35 but first, my forth :) 18:28:58 yup :) 18:36:45 ok> [ [ 3 + ] 5 swap call ] balance . 18:36:45 (-- O) 18:36:53 its getting more clever by the minute :-) 18:37:05 so "balance" is your stack checking word? 18:37:08 yes 18:37:29 nice. mine does no stack checkign ever. I'll have to be careful everyt step fo the way 18:38:02 nice thing about stack checking -- compiled code doesn't need explicit bounds checks if it has been deduced that it is ok 18:38:14 when crossing from interpreter to compiled code, checks are done 18:38:20 but inside compiled code, all stack effects are known 18:38:25 so it'l run faster 18:38:29 this implies code with variable stack effects is not compiled. 18:40:30 slava: have you named your language? 18:40:46 blockhead, Factor 18:41:11 ohhhhh! now I remember. you've mentioned that before! Now I know what you meant! 18:41:24 it used to be called LSD before that 18:41:31 :D 18:41:56 blockhead, you know the >r ... r> idiom? 18:42:07 yes, I just wrote those words today 18:42:15 --- quit: Nutssh ("Client exiting") 18:42:40 i have this word: 18:42:40 ok> "dip" see 18:42:40 : dip 18:42:40 swap >r call r> ; 18:42:49 instead of >r ... r> you write [ ... ] dip 18:43:06 i think it looks neater, and no danger of unbalanced >r/r>; you know at parse time if brackets are not lined up 18:43:07 anyway 18:43:19 [ [ + ] dip * 3 swap ] balance . 18:43:25 (I I I -- O O) 18:43:51 i think its pretty neat that it can deduce this just by looking at the code, and the definitions of 'dip', '+', and '*' :) 18:43:59 i just added this, before it only worked with simple expressions 18:44:16 * blockhead scratches his head 18:44:28 * blockhead looks dazed 18:45:27 blockhead, i challenge you to add this to your forth as well :-) 18:46:01 * kc5tja treats >R and R> as parentheses; I have no problems of ensuring proper balance between them. 18:46:02 eventually. first I have to add the outer interpreter 18:46:26 kc5tja, dip is mostly syntax sugar; but there are more complex words that do weird dataflow stuff too 18:46:30 X [ foo ] [ bar ] cleave 18:46:38 evaluates foo with X on the stack, then bar with X on the stack 18:46:43 Yes, you demonstrated that one already. 18:47:26 slava: although it is very weird a low-level, you might want to read up ont eh False language. Your use of [ and ] reminds me of it 18:47:41 hmm, change that first "a" to an "&" 18:47:43 after a few months i'll probably notice that all my built-in operators are wrong and need to be rewritten :) 18:47:59 this is my first real attempt at doing anything with postfix 18:51:45 so bear with me :) 18:51:49 slava: so would "X [ foo] X [bar]" be the same as that last line of code you put 18:51:54 ? 18:52:22 blockhead, almost, except X might not be literal, and X [ bar ] is eval'd without the foo result on the stack 18:52:55 ok> "cleave" see 18:52:55 : cleave 18:52:55 >r over >r call r> r> call ; 18:54:03 ok 18:54:14 no i'm wrong 18:54:22 'bar' *does* see the result of foo, underneath X. 18:54:40 :) 19:00:45 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 19:30:03 --- join: imaginator (~George@166.70.196.201) joined #forth 19:36:00 'night all 19:36:11 --- quit: blockhead ("Client Exiting") 19:42:05 --- quit: |Chris| ("leaving") 19:52:12 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@216.27.161.121) joined #forth 20:00:04 --- quit: TreyB () 20:15:51 kc5ta: You ever deal with multi-threaded forth systems or do you not believe in such things? 20:16:42 The Forth I intend on ultimately having with FTS/Forth will be multithreaded. 20:16:51 I believe *firmly* in proper use of multithreading. 20:17:46 kc5tja, pre-emptiev or co-opeartive? 20:18:03 Cool - so when you perform a context switch, I presume you reload the stack pointers. Does this mess the cpu data cache and require a lot of memory bus access? 20:18:29 slava: I prefer pre-emptive, but I wouldn't implement preemptive unless I knew I needed it. 20:18:48 Any kind of multitasking will mess with caches. 20:19:45 hmm... I was just checking out this stack-based cpu and considering the costs of context switches on such a cpu rather than a register-based one. 20:20:10 Well, the biggest expense is always the cache. 20:20:45 proteusguy, hardware multithreading, like intel's HT but for > 2 threads would be cool 20:20:48 64 clock cycles to save 32 integer and 32 floating point registers on a RISC is more than dwarfed by the THOUSANDS of clock cycles used by cache line refills. 20:25:45 yes - was hoping a stack based cpu could handle context switching much more efficiently. 20:27:22 kc5tja: you can save a register in one clock cycle? 20:28:22 to l1 cache presumably 20:28:31 Herkamire: Certainly. It's just a store to memory. :) Cache will keep it handy until that line is swapped for a cache line from another task. 20:28:42 kc5tja: hehe :) 20:28:51 and then the cache will be what slows it down 20:30:20 I like the idea of having different forth processes compiled to use different registers :) 20:33:26 Was looking a Patriots IGNITE processor. Its got two stacks but was considering how expensive context switches would be on that cpu. 20:49:09 --- join: arke (~arke@melrose-251-251.flexabit.net) joined #forth 20:49:13 hi 20:49:17 re arke 20:49:34 :) 20:52:20 arke: Doing some research on container farming, and solar ovens/grills. 20:53:11 heh cool stuff 20:55:16 * kc5tja is thinking of setting up a few containers to grow some peppers, onions, and maybe the odd tomato plant. 20:55:41 kc5tja: I'm trying to find an X server implemented in GL, I know theres one out there, but I can't find it, do you have any pointers on that? 20:56:01 Nope. 20:56:05 Never knew such a thing existed 20:56:07 Hrm. 20:56:10 I heard there was one. 20:56:12 arke: look for transluxent 20:56:15 arke, write it :) 20:56:32 because I was having a convo with my dad yesterday (a pure genius, i must say), and he said why not do that. 20:56:47 and then i heeard it already existed 20:56:47 Son thanks matt 20:57:31 arkIno problem chris 20:59:00 Sonarman: You didn't reverse-text the I. :D 20:59:41 i'm not good with spelling :) 20:59:59 :D 21:00:05 Anyway, back to my research. 21:00:20 It appears that most garden veggies are harvestable in 120 to 150 days, which is pretty quick -- much quicker than I expected. 21:01:38 --- quit: imaginator (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 21:01:56 why are you interested in growing vegetables? 21:02:09 First, I'm often too lazy to go to the store to get something to eat. 21:02:20 It's much easier to just walk outside, and pick a peck of peppers. :D 21:02:26 (for some definition of a peck) 21:02:32 Second, it's *WAY* cheaper over the long term. 21:02:51 sounds like a good idea 21:03:05 Third, it's a new learning experience for me. I love to learn new things. 21:03:18 Fourth, *nothing*, and I do mean *nothing*, beats solar-cooked veggies and mushrooms. 21:03:27 And if they're fresh, all the better. :) 21:04:03 Last, and certainly not least, I feel it's just 'the right thing to do.' 21:04:07 solar cooked vegetables you grew yourself? writing your own forth? amateur radio? you're a crazy man :) 21:04:21 I'm getting quite overweight because of fast-food, and I'm starting to get sick of it. 21:04:22 kc5tja: Lots of boaters grow their own sprouts and such on board for long trips. 21:04:28 kc5tja: I estimate the growing season around here to be something like 150 or 180 days (total guess). 21:04:32 The problem is, store-bought foods just don't interest me anymore. They don't taste good to me. 21:04:35 and there is plenty of farming 21:05:01 no wait, you can plant most seeds while you still get frost. 21:05:03 kc5tja: i suggest a trip to europe. 21:05:07 add a month I guess. 21:05:12 Herkamire: I'm in California, so I'm not sure how that compares to where you live. 21:05:18 arke: Got the cash for it? 21:05:19 kc5tja: learn the foods there, then come back (or stay, even better, because its much better there than here) 21:05:23 I'd love to visit Italy and Germany. 21:05:27 kc5tja: er, no :( 21:05:30 canada's the best :-) 21:05:36 kc5tja: southern CA right? 21:05:40 Herkamire: Yep. 21:05:44 kc5tja: I'm going back to germany in < 1.5 years 21:05:45 Perfect growing place for peppers. 21:05:47 to stay 21:05:48 forever 21:05:49 :) 21:05:58 arke: You're originally from Germany, right? 21:06:00 Herkamire: he's in san diego :) 21:06:02 kc5tja: yep 21:06:05 kc5tja: you can grow stuff all year then right? 21:06:10 arke: So you can speak German. Lucky you. :/ I can only speak English, and that's it. 21:06:17 Herkamire: Yes. 21:06:28 kc5tja: learn german :) 21:06:38 kc5tja: its not a "forth" 21:06:47 we have ice and/or snow covering the ground most of the time for 4 months each year 21:06:48 isn't german postfix? :) 21:06:52 kc5tja: its not a "forth"ish language ... its more like RISC 21:06:59 why do solar cooked veggies taste any better than those that are cooked some other way? 21:07:01 arke: You say that like it's always as easy as 1, 2, 3. It's not for me. I have a language disability (I'm convinced of that based on my prior experience). 21:07:04 japanese is forthish 21:07:04 kc5tja: theres usually one word to describe one thing. 21:07:14 kc5tja: oh :( 21:07:29 Sonarman: Because they cook in their own juices. 21:07:32 its highly factored, and there's immediate words :) 21:07:43 Sonarman: And they don't dry out (unless you way overcook them, but I digress). 21:08:13 kc5tja: can you take a quick look at http://home.earthlink.net/~drduggee/solar.htm and tell me if that's what you mean by solar cooking? 21:08:32 kc5tja: well, I stilll believe the best way to learn is to just move to a country. and i dont mean move from mexico to CA, b3ecause everything here is spanish, but somewhere where your language uisnt spoken 21:08:50 Sonarman: Yep. Pretty much it. :) 21:09:17 arke: Perhaps. 21:10:04 Sonarman: I accidently left a small box of mushrooms in my car for about six hours in the summer. When I was cooking dinner that day, I oculdn't find the mushrooms in the kitchen. So I went to the car to see if they dropped out of the bag. 21:10:06 kc5tja: I came here with minimal english knowledge, and nowadays people don't even know im from somewhere else unless i tell then 21:10:08 Sure enough, they did. 21:10:09 them* 21:10:13 kc5tja: I haven't read it yet. But I'll reccomend a gardening book that someone reccomended to me: No-Work garden book -- by Ruth Stout 21:10:23 And the plastic wrapper was loaded with water. I thought, "Shit! They've gone bad!" 21:10:37 Then, as I was walking into the house, the smell of awesome mushrooms hit me, and I grew curious. 21:11:06 I peeled the wrapper back on the box of mushrooms, and low and behold, firm, but not impossibly hard, mushrooms -- nice and moist, and they just melted in my mouth. 21:11:17 Good lord, I was convinced at that poitn. I had never had mushrooms as good as those. 21:11:21 Ever. 21:12:20 thanks kc5tja 21:12:32 :) 21:15:35 dum dee doo 21:16:36 :) 21:16:45 Sorry, reading up on that solar oven page. 21:18:02 I'm gonna play a bit of Halo, bbl 21:18:13 :) 21:19:37 :) this page says how to make a solar oven: http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles/radabaugh30.html 21:19:45 it uses cardboard boxes :) :) 21:22:05 * kc5tja nods 21:22:10 That's probably the kind I'll try first. 21:22:22 That and use saran-wrap for the "glass plate." 21:22:36 This way, I can experiment without raking up a fortune in construction materials. 21:22:43 can saran wrap withstand 250F ? 21:22:49