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08:42:11 <slava> hi kc5tja
08:42:37 <Robert> Hello :)
09:04:59 <kc5tja> Howdy
09:05:10 <kc5tja> Uugh, I need to clean this room again.
09:05:23 <kc5tja> But I also have 10 hours worth of programming to do in, oh, say, 3 to 4 hours tonight.  :/
09:05:38 <kc5tja> I just haven't had the opportunity to work on the code this week due in large part to my laziness.
09:05:42 * kc5tja needs to get on a regular coding schedule.
09:05:47 <slava> kc5tja, knowing you, you're going to try to clean your room so that it fits into 4 screens of code and 4 shadow blocks :)
09:06:29 <kc5tja> Hey, what can I say?  I love blocks.
09:10:07 <kc5tja> But I do have to say this much.  No more last-minute coding stuff.  :(
09:10:14 <kc5tja> I'm sorely going to fall behind on this week's project.
09:10:27 <kc5tja> s/project/requirements/
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15:41:46 <chandler> nice quit message
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16:43:47 <OrngeTide> what are a couple good 32-bit forth environments (x86) that I should check out?
16:46:41 <Robert> google, and avoid all hits on my page. ;)
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17:05:02 <|Chris|> hiya
17:07:02 <|Chris|> :)
17:07:05 <|Chris|> anybody here? :)
17:07:12 <Sonarman> hey
17:07:37 <|Chris|> whats up?
17:07:43 <|Chris|> can I have that penumbra song again?
17:09:45 <Sonarman> sure
17:10:14 <|Chris|> sweet.
17:10:17 <|Chris|> :)
17:10:31 <Sonarman> 63.196.0.81
17:10:52 <|Chris|> how do i do it again? 
17:10:56 <|Chris|> I forgot.
17:11:26 <Sonarman> let me re-figure-it-out :)
17:11:36 <|Chris|> wait, i think i got it, hold on :)
17:43:21 <|Chris|> http://mirrored.flabber.nl/boob.cursor/ciagnijcycka.swf
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17:46:28 <TheBlueWizard> hiya all
17:46:34 <|Chris|> hi
17:46:42 <|Chris|> wanna see a really cool monitor cleaning aid program?
17:46:46 <TheBlueWizard> hiya |Chris|
17:47:12 <|Chris|> ;)
17:47:37 <TheBlueWizard> um....later :)   am occupied
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18:16:04 <TheBlueWizard> hiya kc5tja
18:17:30 <kc5tja> Howdy
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18:23:01 <|Chris|> hey kc5tja 
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18:24:32 <|Chris|_> kc5tja: can you gimme a hand with a bug thats been bothering me?
18:30:56 <TheBlueWizard> gotta go...bye all
18:31:09 <|Chris|_> ye
18:31:10 <|Chris|_> bye
18:31:21 <TheBlueWizard> bye |Chris|_
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18:33:07 <kc5tja> |Chris|_: Probably not.  I'm busy hacking on my own code (for my client) at the moment.
18:35:08 <|Chris|_> solved the bug :)
18:36:19 <|Chris|_> solved it, yay.
18:36:24 <|Chris|_> very stupid mistake.
18:36:35 <|Chris|_> kc5tja: how's QM and/or FS/Forth going?
18:41:00 <dubious> QM?
18:47:16 <|Chris|_> kc5tja: and whatcha coding right now?
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18:51:16 <dubious> Chris: what's QM?
18:55:46 <kc5tja> dubious: qm is/was a humane text editor I was writing for the Linux platform.
18:55:58 <|Chris|_> was? :(
18:56:01 <kc5tja> |Chris|_: I'm coding for my client, like I said earlier.
18:56:12 <|Chris|_> kc5tja: well, whatcha coding for your cleitnt?
18:56:14 <kc5tja> |Chris|_: Well, I'm kind of busy at the moment.
18:56:19 <kc5tja> |Chris|_: I cannot tell you.
18:56:21 <|Chris|_> (please forgiuve me, I cvan't type today unless it's C)
18:56:27 <|Chris|_> kc5tja: Oh, Ok.
18:56:36 <|Chris|_> kc5tja: dod you abandon QM?
18:56:40 <kc5tja> No.
18:56:56 <kc5tja> If anything, I'll probably re-implement what I have of QM in FS/Forth.
18:57:01 <kc5tja> err, FTS/Forth rather.  :)
18:57:09 <kc5tja> But that's a looooong way off right at the moment.
18:57:14 * kc5tja is concerned more with making rent payments.  :/
18:57:36 <|Chris|_> Tomorrow, I gotta work.
18:57:42 <|Chris|_> I'm gonna look at my schedule.
18:57:51 <|Chris|_> And If I'm not working at least 10 hours the following week,
18:57:58 <|Chris|_> I'm gonna quit right then and there
18:58:07 <|Chris|_> which is what I should have done a months ago.
18:58:22 <dubious> kc5: humane? how so?
19:00:05 <dubious> kc5: been reading Open Innovation, a book about the R&D department of companies throughout the 20th century and about the commercializing of ideas. made me put into perspective my project(s) in order to better pay for my own rent.
19:00:09 <|Chris|_> is teh hessling editor any tgood?
19:00:32 <kc5tja> dubious: Humane in the Jef Raskin "Humane Interface" sense.
19:00:55 <chandler> dubious: a very inhumane concept originated by Jef Raskin who is now certifiably nutty. He has become obsessed by a device called the Canon Cat and thinks that a cryptic, text-oriented interface is in some way "humane".
19:01:37 <kc5tja> chandler: Sorry, but you're off your rocker if you think his interface concepts are inhumane.
19:01:47 <kc5tja> THE is *not* THI.
19:01:56 <kc5tja> You're confusing the two concepts.
19:02:15 <chandler> guess so. I was rather unimpressed by his web site, so I never bothered to read the book.
19:03:00 <kc5tja> In my personal experience, THI addresses every user-interface related issue that my clients have raised over the years.
19:03:10 <dubious> heh, found a page about Jef Raskin and the book I just mentioned actually spoke of him indirectly.. ie Xerox PARC and scientists leaving there to work at Apple
19:03:56 <chandler> http://humane.sourceforge.net/humane_interface/hollands_review.html
19:03:58 <chandler> this is what I read
19:04:45 <chandler> is that a good summary?
19:05:12 <kc5tja> Having skimmed it over, I think so.
19:05:16 <dubious> kc5: have you read the book? worthwhile?
19:05:20 <kc5tja> But I fail to see the relavence.
19:05:27 <kc5tja> dubious: Yes, I have the book, and it is definitely worthwhile to read.
19:05:45 <dubious> kc5: cool, sounds actually promissing. I'll add it to my wish list
19:06:17 <dubious> so many things to read, so little time
19:06:19 <chandler> oh, I read this too: http://humane.sourceforge.net/humane_interface/summary_of_thi.html
19:06:32 <chandler> and I disagreed with quite a bit of it
19:06:58 <kc5tja> Such as?
19:07:40 <chandler> it seems to me he's confusing two very different concepts: efficiency, the speed of using the interface, and usability, which is the ease of translating goal -> action
19:08:02 <chandler> in particular he bashes modes a lot, but modes help quite a bit in the second case
19:08:14 <kc5tja> Both of which I disagree with.
19:08:24 <dubious> chandler: modes? what are "modes"?
19:08:27 <kc5tja> I'm constantly forgetting what mode I'm in in VIM.
19:08:36 <kc5tja> (despite the fact that VIM is my all-time favorite editor)
19:08:37 <dubious> oh, nevermind
19:08:44 <chandler> VIM is an extreme example. Try looking at an application-centric model such as OS X
19:08:50 <kc5tja> I have.
19:08:53 <kc5tja> I've used OS X.
19:09:03 * dubious loves vim as well, wouldn't have coded half of what I've done without it.
19:09:04 <chandler> the "mode" is of course the current application
19:09:09 <kc5tja> I fail to see how it is in any way significantly different from, say, Windows 2000 or X Windows.
19:09:34 <chandler> this mode provides an element of immediate contextuality which helps the process of deciding on an action from a goal
19:09:59 <kc5tja> Oberon users will probably contest that.
19:10:20 <kc5tja> Oberon has a completely modeless GUI interface, and users of Oberon are violently defensive of the concept.
19:10:24 <dubious> I actually wired my own pedal to send keyboard codes on the wire so that I can switch modes more fluidly, be it vi modes or screen modes for example.
19:10:46 <chandler> it is also very easy to become efficient at using an interface, and convince yourself that this works well :-)
19:11:09 <dubious> I wish I could write something that people feel so strongly about
19:11:26 <kc5tja> Well, convincing yourself is different from *measurably* being more efficient.
19:11:47 <kc5tja> If you're happy with the current generation of WIMPy interfaces, by all means, be my guest.
19:11:52 <dubious> chandler: it has taken me several months to convince people in the office screen(1) is efficient while they thought their multiple xterms were more efficient because they were more used to it.
19:11:57 <kc5tja> However, I'll always strive towards a superior interface.
19:12:00 <chandler> kc5tja: no, I'm not happy with it, but what I want is /greater/ contextuality
19:12:13 <chandler> and efficiency is no longer a concern of mine
19:12:17 <chandler> well, that's not true
19:12:24 <chandler> it's a concern, but not a definition of usability
19:12:47 <kc5tja> I find I have every bit as much context in a modeless UI as I do in a modal UI.
19:12:50 <kc5tja> In fact, I often have more.
19:13:01 <|Chris|_> I forget my vi mode too, but its very simple to fix: <esc>
19:13:11 <kc5tja> One of the things I absolutely *abhore* about OS X, X11, and Windows are those *FUCKING* retarded modal dialog boxes.
19:13:15 <chandler> by actually trying to get a gague on my own internal "cognitive frustration" (term from Cooper) I've discovered that many times the less efficient solution is what I prefer
19:13:19 <kc5tja> Especially when you can't resize them.
19:13:22 <|Chris|_> kc5tja: ?
19:13:35 <chandler> kc5tja: those are actually banned in the OS X HIG
19:13:45 <chandler> unless you mean window-modal dialogs
19:13:52 <kc5tja> |Chris|_: A modal dialog box is a box that refuses to let you manipulate or work with any other application on the screen until you definitely acknowledge (somehow) that dialog box.
19:13:56 <dubious> HIG? what's the 'H' for?
19:14:01 <chandler> dubious: Human
19:14:11 <|Chris|_> kc5tja: Oh, those are the worst invention in the world.
19:14:55 <|Chris|_> ugh
19:14:56 <dubious> kc5: with any other application might be overkill, but with the actual application to which the modal dialog box belongs would make more sense
19:14:57 <chandler> in fact, dialog boxes should be minimized where possible
19:15:02 <|Chris|_> whoever came up with those needs to be shot
19:15:10 <chandler> interrupting the user == bad
19:15:11 <kc5tja> dubious: I find it doesn't.
19:15:14 <|Chris|_> chandler: I agree.
19:15:15 <kc5tja> It really hurts me.
19:15:45 <|Chris|_> I would prefer a small set-aside part of the screen that's always there (in that application) that shows things, instead of dialog boxes.
19:16:00 <dubious> kc5: why? in some instances, pursuing with the underlying application might change the context of the dialog box and therefore invalidate it
19:16:00 <chandler> eew, that would be worse
19:16:04 <kc5tja> |Chris|_: Another thing Oberon has.
19:16:09 <chandler> you'd never notice it
19:16:12 <|Chris|_> chandler: naah, would be better :)
19:16:15 <kc5tja> dubious: Precisely.
19:16:30 <dubious> kc5: therefore it is good that this modal window disables the rest of the application
19:16:31 <kc5tja> chandler: Not true from my experience.
19:16:43 <kc5tja> dubious: Therefore it is bad that this modal window disables the rest of the application.
19:17:06 <dubious> kc5: please explain
19:17:18 <kc5tja> dubious: "ERROR: Can't Load Foo OK?  CANCEL?"
19:17:25 <kc5tja> dubious: What the hell kind of dialog is that?
19:17:37 <kc5tja> dubious: OK, so you can't load FOO -- get out of my way and let me do something else.
19:18:22 <|Chris|_> even worse, you want it to do something, and you walk away, and it gets stuck immediately after you walk away with a dialog box
19:18:27 <|Chris|_> typical example of windows.
19:18:32 <dubious> kc5: anything can be used badly, and that is such an example.
19:18:42 <kc5tja> dubious: I find that that is how it is 99% used.
19:19:10 <kc5tja> Also, I firmly feel that applications should never have file open or save dialog boxes.
19:19:14 <kc5tja> They're useless.
19:19:22 <kc5tja> Just minimize the application to an icon, and drag the icon to a disk folder.
19:19:23 <kc5tja> Done.
19:19:39 <kc5tja> Or the reverse: drag the icon to the desktop and double-click (or just double-click from the window directly).
19:19:51 <kc5tja> I *LOVE* how ROX-Filer uses drag-n-drop for almost *everything* in this way.
19:19:53 <chandler> so documents can only be opened from the desktop?
19:20:04 <|Chris|_> kc5tja: I agree :)
19:20:40 <kc5tja> chandler: No, but if you're in a windowing environment, and you're using a graphical application, is it that hard to use your desktop environment's already existing file management interface to manipulate files?
19:20:49 <|Chris|_> chandler: no, just that the desktop is the main user interface.
19:21:05 <chandler> er, I meant the desktop as in the thing with the background picture, as opposed to a window
19:21:21 <|Chris|_> i don't really like the "window" idea either
19:21:21 <chandler> I personally abhor the desktop; most of the time, it ought to be covered up
19:21:36 <kc5tja> Covered up with what?
19:21:49 <kc5tja> As you say, I want context, and that means having precisely one application visible at any given time.
19:21:52 <|Chris|_> i disagree, i think the desktop should be more centralized.
19:21:53 <chandler> things you're actually working on
19:21:58 <kc5tja> Which leads me to my use of ion window manager instead of something like wm.
19:22:04 <|Chris|_> best have everything part of the desktop.
19:22:54 <|Chris|_> chandler: well, if you're using an application for which you won't need the desktop, maximize it on its own desktop area.
19:23:15 <kc5tja> But the point is, 99% of the computer using, non-technical people want a document-centric interface.  They are thoroughly confused with an application-centric one.
19:23:28 <|Chris|_> kc5tja: yep.
19:23:31 <chandler> I dispute that. 99% of the people don't use application-centric user interfaces.
19:23:39 <kc5tja> Bullhockey.
19:23:39 <chandler> they use this weird crappy hybrid that is windows
19:23:45 <|Chris|_> chandler: I'm sorry
19:23:46 <kc5tja> Every time they boot Windows, they're using an app-centric interface.
19:23:47 <|Chris|_> chandler: but
19:23:53 <|Chris|_> chandler: 99% of the people use windows
19:23:57 <chandler> I dispute that windows is actually an application-centric interface.
19:23:57 <|Chris|_> chandler: thats app-centriuc
19:24:05 <|Chris|_> chandler: it is.
19:24:09 <chandler> windows is a window-centric user interface.
19:24:25 <|Chris|_> chandler: so is KDE or Gnome, although they become closer to it (believe it or not)
19:24:27 <chandler> if it were application centric it would treat applications as the important contextual element, for instance in the taskbar
19:24:28 <kc5tja> chandler: To do anything in Windows, you need to launch applications.  To launch an application, you must install it.  The application concept is very visible to the user.
19:24:33 <kc5tja> Hence, it's an app-centric interface.
19:24:45 <chandler> um. that doesn't make it "centric"
19:24:50 <kc5tja> It absolutely does.
19:24:53 <chandler> it means it's further in that direction, yes
19:25:08 <chandler> but the user interface that windows provides is not designed to manage applications, but windows
19:25:34 <chandler> what shows up in the taskbar on windows? unless you're using XP, it's windows. If you're using XP, it's this weird thing that constantly shifts between applications and windows.
19:25:35 <|Chris|_> appllication are windows
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19:25:44 <chandler> what does alt-tab do? changes windows.
19:25:54 <|Chris|_> Yes.
19:25:55 <|Chris|_> But
19:25:59 <kc5tja> So what?
19:26:00 <chandler> now, what shows up in the dock on OS X? applications. what does alt-tab do? switches applications.
19:26:00 <|Chris|_> you need an application for windows.
19:26:10 <chandler> yeah yeah, I'm just saying, that windows is not a pure application-centric interface
19:26:22 <kc5tja> OK, so now instead of flipping windows, the user now needs TWO levels of hierarchy to maintain in his brain.
19:26:30 <kc5tja> The app, then the window within the app.
19:26:57 <|Chris|_> one app, one window. one thing that makes me like teh gimp less.
19:26:59 <chandler> actually, two levels of hierarchy makes things easier in one respect: under windows, you can only get up to about 7 things at a time before going into overload; in OS X, you can get up to 49.
19:27:19 <kc5tja> Not me.
19:27:30 <chandler> you're a superintelligent dork. you don't count. neither do I.
19:27:31 <kc5tja> I'm as restricted to about 8 things at once regardless of my UI.
19:27:36 <|Chris|_> I have had 73 windows open under KDE once. :)
19:28:03 <|Chris|_> which reminds me, i need to get rox + xfce
19:28:05 <kc5tja> Yes, and I fail to see how a dumbass non-dork (thank you very much) can handle 49 things at once.
19:28:10 <kc5tja> That's like accusing me of being autistic.
19:28:29 <chandler> hehe. I meant no disrespect; I apply the term to myself.
19:29:06 <kc5tja> There are research papers on user interface design.  Jef actually took the time to review and study them.  Microsoft didn't.  Apple doesn't anymore (OS X is about as frilly as one can get while still being on that borderline of usefulness).
19:29:10 <kc5tja> X11 *NEVER* did.
19:29:33 <chandler> but extra levels of grouping make it easier to manage multiple things - for instance, I might have about seven web browser windows open, but that doesn't stop me from putting them aside and opening up some other windows in another app
19:29:46 <chandler> since I don't have to see the web browser windows when I'm not browsing the web
19:29:51 <|Chris|_> X11 doesn't bother itself with interface, that's why. X11 only bothers with providing teh capabilities.
19:29:51 <chandler> don't have to deal with them in any format
19:30:15 <|Chris|_> chandler: thats why I love tabbed browsing.
19:30:24 <|Chris|_> another respect in which windows is behind, tabbed browsing.
19:30:44 <chandler> my beef with tabbed browsing has recently been addressed; OmniWeb 5 is now the first browser with rearrangable tabs
19:31:21 <chandler> I love tabbed browsing, but I wish other browsers would allow drag and drop rearrangement too
19:32:22 <chandler> kc5tja: personally, I think Jef is misapplying or selectively applying cognitive science here. Cog sci is my field actually.
19:33:29 <chandler> and I am quite frustrated by the field of user interface design and the direction that it has gone in over the past ten years
19:33:43 <chandler> the current hot topic in UI is in interfacing to very large amounts of data
19:33:53 <chandler> on the order of the human genome project or what NASA collects
19:34:15 <chandler> the other hot topic is "smart" interfaces, which I personally dispise
19:34:46 <kc5tja> As do I.
19:35:10 <|Chris|_> mm, that would be nice, DND tabs ....
19:35:31 <chandler> |Chris|_: not only are OW5's tabs D&D, they're optionally thumbnails
19:36:36 * |Chris|_ just thought of the perfect ROX plugin :)
19:36:40 <|Chris|_> NetDirs :P
19:36:46 <chandler> netdirs?
19:36:50 <chandler> anyway, I best get some sleep now
19:36:55 <|Chris|_> basically, a directory which contains websites
19:37:21 <|Chris|_> so you can click it and open it, and close it, and its still there
19:37:28 <|Chris|_> use a really fast browser (epiphany?)
19:37:30 <|Chris|_> and you're set
19:37:32 <|Chris|_> :)
19:38:27 <chandler> oh, the other cool thing in OW5 is named workspaces of web sites, which are optionally saved across sessions
19:38:48 <chandler> http://www.arstechnica.com/reviews/004/software/mac/omniweb/ow5-1.html
19:39:28 <kc5tja> Anyway, I'm still unconvinced that a mode-based UI is a better solution.  I'm still a champion of a modeless interface.
19:40:37 <chandler> in every situation in interacting with the computer, there is a context which affects the interpretation of our commands
19:41:06 <chandler> a keystroke might not mean the same thing, or a click do something different depending on what the mouse is over
19:41:25 <chandler> in the situations where this is the case, it is best to make such a context primary to the interface
19:42:19 <|Chris|_> i guess modes is best just in certain cases.
19:42:33 <chandler> I don't think the document-based promised land is attainable, because there are more things done on a computer than editing documents. Different tasks do in many respects have different modes of interaction; the primary interaction in document editing is content creation and structuring, but in web browsing, or database viewing, it is content organization
19:42:34 <|Chris|_> for ll33t h4x0ring, modal vi is great :)
19:42:36 <|Chris|_> emacs is horrible.
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19:44:37 <kc5tja> Having used a modeless UI in the past (specifically Oberon's), I can say that modal UIs aren't the only way to do things, even with all these different 'modes of interaction.'
19:45:05 <kc5tja> And with that, let's just agree to disagree, 'cos it's clear we're never going to agree on this.
19:45:46 <chandler> just one nitpick: I don't like using the term "modal"; I prefer "contextual"
19:45:49 <|Chris|_> :)
19:45:50 <|Chris|_> :P
19:45:53 <|Chris|_> brb, dinner
19:45:56 <kc5tja> It's still a mode.
19:46:03 <chandler> it extends beyond modes. for instance contrast NeXT-style column view with OS 9 style spatial browsing
19:46:52 <kc5tja> Since that's two completely different OSes, with two completely different expectations of interaction from the user, I consider that an invalid example/argument.
19:47:05 <chandler> uh? I'm just talking about the presentation of folders
19:47:11 <kc5tja> Yes
19:47:12 <chandler> it's not invalid at all
19:47:14 <kc5tja> Precisely.
19:47:28 <kc5tja> NeXTStep assumes the user is familiar with columnar views.
19:47:33 <kc5tja> (as does OS X for the most part)
19:47:40 <chandler> and OS 9, with spatial views... that's not what I'm trying to get at
19:47:48 <kc5tja> MacOS 9 and earlier implicitly assume the user to be familiar with the spatial view.
19:48:07 <kc5tja> Then I just don't see how that applies.
19:48:12 <kc5tja> To me, that's still a mode.
19:48:20 <chandler> I'm not talking about modes, I'm talking about context!
19:48:21 <kc5tja> (esp. on OS X, where you can change your view 'modes')
19:48:33 <chandler> In the NeXT style the context of what you are looking at is evident
19:48:37 <chandler> that is not so in OS 9
19:49:04 <chandler> which requires using your visual memory to dereference a view of a folder into a cognitive representation of its expected contents
19:49:11 <kc5tja> I've found a nice UI for representing hierarchial information too, based on SF's "trove" concept.
19:49:14 <kc5tja> A
19:49:16 <kc5tja> A :: B :: C
19:49:18 <kc5tja> A :: B
19:49:19 <kc5tja> A :: B :: D
19:49:21 <kc5tja> A :: E
19:49:22 <kc5tja> A :: F
19:49:25 <kc5tja> B
19:49:27 <kc5tja> C
19:49:30 <kc5tja> C :: X
19:49:32 <kc5tja> X :: Y
19:49:36 <kc5tja> C :: Z
19:49:41 <kc5tja> oops, shoudl read C :: Y
19:50:05 <kc5tja> It's nice, because it is a nice, flat list, yet clearly represents hierarchy.
19:50:19 <kc5tja> All the context is there, despite lacking enforced hierarchy.
19:51:01 <chandler> I don't see how that applies to a filesystem, when you can have non-identical items with the same name and icon (and contents too)
19:51:14 <chandler> that assumes that C is some kind of unique designators
19:51:17 <chandler> er, -s
19:51:30 <chandler> anyway, I /really/ need to get some sleep now
19:51:32 <kc5tja> You can in any normal filesystem too.
19:51:34 <chandler> parents coming into town tomorrow
19:51:40 <kc5tja> But it applies preicsely in the same way your example applies.
19:51:42 <chandler> kc5tja: how? by naming everything uniquely?
19:51:49 <kc5tja> WTF dude?
19:51:51 <kc5tja> /foo/bar
19:51:52 <kc5tja> /bar/foo
19:51:53 <chandler> huh?
19:51:58 <kc5tja> They're totally different directories.
19:52:06 <chandler> yeah, I'm saying that foo/bar tells you nothing
19:52:15 <chandler> because there can be as many foo/bar's as you want
19:52:16 <kc5tja> It tells me a LOT
19:52:23 <chandler> it tells you one level of context
19:52:25 <chandler> which is useful, yes
19:52:34 <kc5tja> Do you see the multiple levels of nesting?'
19:52:42 <kc5tja> A :: B :: B :: C :: A :: A :: B :: C
19:52:43 <kc5tja> ?
19:52:58 <kc5tja> I mean, do I really need to spell things out that far to be so obvious?
19:53:04 <chandler> uh
19:53:08 <chandler> I think we're no longer communicating
19:53:13 <chandler> I'll talk to you later
19:53:46 <kc5tja> I thought my example was perfectly obvious given the context (sorry) of the conversation.
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20:25:32 <|Chris|_> back
20:25:35 <|Chris|_> :)
20:25:54 <|Chris|_> i think I need to try Ion, as much as I want to resist it.
20:26:09 <|Chris|_> where's the "desktop" in Ion?
20:28:56 * |Chris|_ watches the wget penis....
20:35:26 <|Chris|_> dum de doo ... dum de dooo ... lalala ... watching the wget penis ... xfce4 coming up ... 
20:35:57 <kc5tja> Ion has 'no desktop.'
20:36:10 <|Chris|_> Well, then I don't like it.
20:36:12 <kc5tja> You launch commands via the function keys.
20:36:18 <kc5tja> OK.
20:36:22 <|Chris|_> :)
20:36:29 <|Chris|_> I want something I can put Icons on.
20:36:36 <kc5tja> If you're that close-minded and opinionated, then I see no further point in continuing to explain it.
20:36:44 --- log: started forth/04.02.06
20:36:44 --- join: clog (nef@bespin.org) joined #forth
20:36:44 --- topic: 'A channel dedicated to the Forth programming language, its implementation, its application, and its philosophy.'
20:36:44 --- topic: set by kc5tja on [Fri Dec 12 07:57:32 2003]
20:36:44 --- names: list (clog madgarden |Chris|_ @kc5tja @ChanServ Sonarman Robert Herkamire cmeme slava mur warpzero OrngeTide TreyB scope ooo__ skylan ianp chandler)
20:36:44 <kc5tja> Ion is a window manager.  Period.
20:36:56 <|Chris|_> yeah, Ok :)
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20:37:02 <|Chris|_> I'm trying it anyway.
20:37:07 <|Chris|_> Can you have a pinboard?
20:37:12 <|Chris|_> as a window?
20:37:16 <kc5tja> So put a ROX desktop in a pane.
20:37:20 <kc5tja> Yes.
20:37:27 <kc5tja> I have one.
20:37:39 <|Chris|_> Oh, well, then that is nice :)
20:37:56 <kc5tja> Can't really drag and drop to it though, since my version of Ion doesn't support DnD.
20:38:04 <kc5tja> Maybe the newer version (beta) does.
20:38:21 <kc5tja> Anyway, I ahve to get back to coding.
20:38:25 <|Chris|_> :(
20:38:44 <kc5tja> It is either that, or I don't pay my rent.
20:38:57 * kc5tja fuckin' hates living so close to the wire all the fuckin' time.
20:38:59 <|Chris|_> Ok, have fun :)
20:39:03 <|Chris|_> what language?
20:39:10 <|Chris|_> :(
20:39:11 <kc5tja> C
20:39:19 * kc5tja isn't in a good mood right now.
20:39:31 <|Chris|_> :(
20:39:39 <kc5tja> Nobody, and I mean *NOBODY* should ever have to live in fear of losing their house due to lack of adequate employment.
20:39:50 <kc5tja> I fucking *HATE* this goddamned pro-conservative BULLFUCKINGSHIT.
20:39:55 * kc5tja sighs
20:40:26 <|Chris|_> yeah.
20:40:43 <|Chris|_> whats teh big deal about janet jackson? Ok, so she exposed a little color. So what.
20:40:55 <|Chris|_> no reason to sue her and uninvite her from the grammies
20:41:29 <|Chris|_> No reason to fire a teacher for mentioning oral sex in a health class during the unit he's supposed to be talking abuot sex.
20:41:36 <|Chris|_> pleeeeease explain!?
20:41:45 <|Chris|_> grrr.
20:44:17 <|Chris|_> also, what the hell is wrong with gay marriage?
20:44:20 <|Chris|_> nothing wrong with that.
20:44:30 <|Chris|_> nothing wrong with gay people, nothing wrong with gay marriage.
20:44:57 <|Chris|_> I think its more wrong for a teacher totalk about his opinion against gay marriage than a teacher talking about oral sex in a health class during the sex ed unit.
20:47:27 --- nick: |Chris|_ -> |Chris|
20:50:44 <Sonarman> i agree with everything you've said
20:54:32 <|Chris|> :)
21:09:22 <|Chris|> brb, switching to xfce
21:11:25 <|Chris|> back :)
21:34:59 <|Chris|> oh yay, xfce4+rox is teh kcikass
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23:00:32 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK")
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/04.02.06