00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.02.04
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00:06:00 * warpzero is away: Sunny day, sweeping the clouds away, on my way to where the air is sweet!  Can you tell me how to get, how to get to Sesame Street?
00:30:53 <mur> hmmm
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14:27:04 <arke> OMG am I pissed.
14:27:15 <arke> All this time I had no connection.
14:27:27 <arke> And I just moved my computer closer to the wireless access point
14:27:31 <arke> AND IT WORKS JUST FINEEW!!!!
14:27:46 <arke> that is, my computer is in our office right now.
14:27:55 <arke> which is where nobody wants it.
14:36:56 <arke> nobody missed me :(
14:36:59 <arke> :((
14:40:58 <arke> Alright, fine.
14:40:59 <arke> :)
14:41:15 <haqqer> hi arke
14:41:28 <networm> (probably stupid question, but) why isn't the order of stack operands reversed? like.. 2 8 / would result in 4. i'm new to RPN - but it seems to be more consistent somehow
14:41:51 <arke> 2 8 / SHOULD be 0
14:42:12 <arke> (i think)
14:42:17 <arke> what forth you using?
14:42:26 <networm> i'm just now implementing my first own forth :)
14:42:30 <arke> hi haqqer :)
14:42:51 <networm> and i got all the operands reversed in some built in test words, like /
14:42:53 <arke> networm: well, 2 8 / . should show 0
14:42:57 <haqqer> i think for arithmetic operations it's generally ( a b -- a + b, a / b, a * b, a - b ), but i dunno
14:43:12 <arke> yeah, like that.
14:43:14 <arke> what language?
14:43:19 <networm> C
14:43:31 <arke> lemme see your def for /
14:43:34 <networm> well, i was just wondering if there is some special reasoning behind the order
14:43:47 <Herkamire> networm: it works very nicely
14:44:00 <Herkamire> you often work with numbers on the stack already
14:44:12 <Herkamire> if you want to devide it by 4 you simply do:   4 /
14:44:19 <networm> i coded naivley: op1 = pop(); op2 = pop(); push (op1 / op2);
14:44:36 <networm> ah, that makes sense
14:44:47 <networm> thanks :)
14:45:11 <Herkamire> likewise if you would like to subtract 3 from it:  3 -
14:45:24 <arke> hi Herkamire 
14:45:28 <Herkamire> hi arke :{)
14:45:30 <arke> btw, whats new in the geekworld?
14:45:38 <arke> Herkamire: how are you?
14:45:43 <Herkamire> oops, didn't mean to add a mustache ;)
14:45:50 <Herkamire> arke: I'm a little stressed
14:46:12 <Herkamire> too much work landed on my in one week
14:47:16 <Herkamire> it will be great to have the money, but I'm not enjoying myself as much as I like to
14:49:40 <arke> what do you do for a living?
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14:52:26 <Herkamire> websites mostly
14:52:54 <Herkamire> I do hosting and programming and design
14:53:00 <Herkamire> herkamire.com
15:02:31 <arke> cool
15:43:31 <arke> blah blah blah ... Moooooo .... boredom ... lalalaaaa
15:44:03 * warpzero is back (gone 15:38:02)
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16:04:13 <arke> haqqer was wossname? 0.)
16:04:25 <warpzero> Uh oh?
16:06:45 <Sonarman> cool, i didn't know he came here :)
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16:09:26 <vegemite> greetings, earthlings!
16:09:31 --- nick: vegemite -> Teratogen
16:10:41 * warpzero makes a vegemite sandwich.
16:11:42 <arke> brb
16:12:05 <Teratogen> heark, it's arke!
16:13:33 <Sonarman> harke :)
16:27:35 <cr3> I wonder if vegemite can be found in north america
16:28:12 <Sonarman> probably
16:28:26 <Sonarman> my sister had some at this camp she went to
16:28:41 <Sonarman> of course, it was run by aussies
16:29:35 <cr3> force feeding vegemite to children? shouldn't we report this to the proper authorities?
16:29:53 <Sonarman> no, it was consensual
16:30:08 <Sonarman> it was on the fine print of the paperwork
16:30:40 <warpzero> The look in your eyes!
16:30:48 <cr3> right next to knitting wallets and soccer balls, right?
16:31:12 <Sonarman> cr3: no, those were only if you agreed to go on the "field trip" to cambodia
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17:19:01 <blockhead> join #povray
17:19:05 <blockhead> oops
17:23:16 <arke> SPAMMER!
17:23:24 * arke receives op by ChanServ
17:23:42 * arke sets mode: +b blockhead!*@*.*
17:23:50 * arke kicks blockhead from #forth
17:23:52 <arke> ^_^
17:24:09 <Sonarman> - - blockhead [[default@dialin-240-tnt.nyc.bestweb.net] has joined #forth
17:24:14 <Sonarman> dude
17:24:19 <Sonarman> you didn't ban him
17:24:52 * Sonarman sets mode: +b default!*@*-tnt.nyc.bestweb.net
17:25:11 * Sonarman kicks blockhead from #forth
17:25:38 <blockhead> dudes.  it was a typo.  I forgot the slash
17:26:48 <Sonarman> that's what they all say
17:26:52 * blockhead hands out chill pills all around.
17:27:27 * Sonarman 's head bursts into flame: he was accidentally handed a chili pill instead.
17:27:47 <proteusguy> hey this isn't #fedora or #python! what's with the kicking?!?!?
17:28:11 <arke> ^_^
17:28:15 <Sonarman> this is #debian, DON'T EVER DO THAT AGAIN
17:28:40 <arke> ^_^
17:28:40 <arke> ^_^
17:28:41 <arke> ^_^
17:28:52 * proteusguy is banned from #redhat for saying he didn't like the Bluescreen them in the #fedora channel. Go figure...
17:29:26 * Sonarman remembers the time someone did a CTCP version #debian :)
17:30:16 <Sonarman> some people sure were pissed :) at least he didn't get banned
17:31:14 <slava> hi
17:31:55 <Sonarman> back when i was using AOL, i was trying to learn BitchX and needed a bit of help, but i was autobanned from #BitchX@EFnet for being on AOL.  so i switched to irssi :)
17:34:23 <proteusguy> irc constantly proves my belief that ego and talent are inversely proportional. :)
17:35:56 <Herkamire> Sonarman: lol
17:36:09 <arke> proteusguy: I agree, I agree.
17:37:21 <Sonarman> proteusguy: well, that's not always true (but i guess it often is).  for example, the guys in #e[develop] are very skilled, but they are kind of "ego-y"
17:37:51 <Sonarman> at least that's the impression i got from the few times i've been there
17:38:10 <Sonarman> but y'know, when i think about it, they're not that bad
17:38:34 <Sonarman> so maybe you're right
17:39:23 <Sonarman> or, maybe talent/skill inflates the ego, and then when the ego reaches a certain point the skill (or amount of work done) decreases
17:39:28 <Herkamire> there's plenty of people with no talent or ego
17:39:38 <Sonarman> s/point/size
17:40:11 <Sonarman> yeah, that's true
17:43:40 <arke> AsDfJkL;
17:43:46 <arke> aSdFjKl:
17:43:51 <Herkamire> arke: learn dvorak ;)
17:43:51 <Sonarman> no more dvorak for you?
17:44:02 <Sonarman> heh
17:44:02 <arke> No, I gave up ^_^
17:44:10 <arke> Well, sorta.
17:44:14 <arke> I can type dvorak.
17:44:23 <arke> But I need to look at the buttons\
17:44:27 <Herkamire> I just got a new keyboard, and my keys have qwerty labels again
17:44:30 <arke> qwerty i don't.
17:44:30 <Herkamire> kind of annoying
17:44:36 <arke> Herkamire: :)
17:44:42 <Herkamire> I didn't realize that I looked at them
17:45:08 <Herkamire> when using the mouse (mostly in the Gimp) I look down to hit keyboard shortcuts
17:45:32 <warpzero> yeah i noticed that when i went to dvorak
17:45:43 <Herkamire> I'll have to see if it's as easy to pop the keys off and rearange them as it was on my apple pro keyboard
17:46:34 <Sonarman> lol
17:47:38 <slava> hi all
17:48:02 <Sonarman> hi
17:48:41 <Sonarman> btw Herkamire your eight-line mandelbrot program is cool :)
17:52:08 <Herkamire> Sonarman: :)
17:52:49 <Herkamire> took me a long time to get it to work because I assumed that 2.0 and the like went on the floating point stack
17:53:32 <slava> am i missing out on something big by not having a separate fp stack in factor?
17:54:17 <Herkamire> slava: no
17:54:42 <slava> Herkamire, is it just because of alignment issues?
17:54:51 <Herkamire> when you type 3.0 or -1.8 gforth puts two items on the data stack instead of a float on the float stack
17:55:02 <Herkamire> to get stuff on the float stack in gforth you have to end with e
17:55:05 <blockhead> "." indicates a double size int
17:55:16 <Herkamire> 3e or 0.5e etc go on the float stack in gforth
17:55:37 <blockhead> :o  oh.  never used gforth.
17:55:50 <Herkamire> I don't see the point of a doublesized int. at least not on a 32bit machine
17:56:01 <Herkamire> on 8bit machine I can see it being useful
17:56:19 <blockhead> Herkamire: you're right.
17:56:41 <Sonarman> maybe if you need really precise fixed-point numbers or something
17:56:53 <blockhead> or if you had no FPU
17:57:31 <Herkamire> yeah. it's just not stuff I think about.
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18:16:45 <arke> EIGHT LInE MANDELBROT!?
18:17:00 <slava> YES :)
18:17:02 <slava> HI ARKE :)
18:17:31 <arke> wow..
18:17:38 <arke> eight line mandelbrot...
18:17:43 <arke> btw, how does mandelbrot work? :)
18:17:53 <Sonarman> arke: http://jason.herkamire.com:5000/mandelbrot.fs
18:18:24 <Sonarman> arke: i don't know, but you're not going to be able to figure it out from that code :)
18:19:00 <kc5tja> You won't be able to figure it out unless you have a firm grasp of the complex plane and the concept of limits and divergence/convergence.
18:20:48 <arke> well, I don't ^_^
18:20:51 <arke> kc5tja!!!!!!
18:20:54 <arke> kc5tja: :)
18:21:07 <arke> kc5tja: the following convo happened in our class today:
18:21:29 <arke> 1: "In-n-Out needs to learn to put the cheese and meat in the MIDDLE of the burger"
18:21:50 <arke> 2: "They do that to have the meat hanging out like "LOOK HOW MUCH MEAT THERE IS!! OH SOO GOOD!""
18:21:54 <arke> ^_^
18:21:59 <arke> btw, I'm quitting mcd's
18:22:35 <kc5tja> I openly challenge them, and you can quote me on this, to place the meat/cheese in the middle of the burger and have it stay there during wrapping and delivery to the customer, all within 10 to 15 seconds off the grill.
18:22:46 <kc5tja> E.g., because the cheese is essentially a liquid at this point, it's not possible.
18:22:54 <kc5tja> So they can go lick their pet's balls.
18:23:17 <arke> heh :P
18:25:26 <arke> loser.
18:25:31 <arke> Epiar GUI is position based.
18:25:56 <arke> 20:26 <topher|nb> yea, it's not a very sophsticated gui, there is no moving or resizing in the 0.5.0 gui
18:25:59 <arke> 20:26 <topher|nb> it's really just targetted at doing what epiar needs, heh
18:26:01 <arke> 20:26  * arke notes that.
18:26:03 <arke> 20:27 <topher|nb> although if you'd like to expand it, go right ahead, i'd love a more versatile but still as simple gui
18:26:08 <arke> lollollollollollol
18:26:12 <arke> if he had any idea.
18:26:49 <kc5tja> Heh
18:27:02 <arke> where has tathi been btw?
18:27:04 * cleverdra sees 'lol' as more immediately a person with both arms raised than as laughter, now.
18:27:07 * kc5tja will have to spend some time coding tonight.  2 to 3 hours before I go to bed.
18:27:32 <kc5tja> I just see it as someone who actually says, "lolollolollol!"
18:27:35 <arke> cleverdra: lol
18:27:41 <arke> kc5tja: :)
18:27:44 <warpzero> Why do people insist on using C for scripting tasks?
18:27:51 * arke goes to retrieve the original Frapiar tree
18:27:52 <cleverdra> warp - do they?  ew.
18:27:56 <arke> since I lost it
18:27:57 <warpzero> yes
18:28:06 <arke> but I backed it up, so now I can continue :)
18:28:12 <slava> how can C be used for scripting?
18:28:18 <blockhead> warpzero: 'cause c what they are used to?
18:28:20 <slava> running gcc interactively? :) gcc /dev/tty
18:28:39 <warpzero> slava: i mean doing things in c that should be done in a scripting language
18:28:45 <cleverdra> slava - no, you'd call that 'scripting C'.
18:28:48 <slava> warpzero, oh yeah, that's retarded
18:28:51 <cleverdra> or 'scripting gcc', anyway.
18:29:15 <arke> hihi
18:31:39 <warpzero> slava: even high level data processing is stupid in c, or for that matter c++
18:32:04 <madgarden> warpzero: Yea, "scripting" in C is a bit of a pain. My one old game project is a bit crippled because of it.
18:32:28 <warpzero> madgarden: hmm?
18:32:34 <arke> OK guys, I need some help.
18:32:41 <slava> warpzero, arguably, even java
18:32:42 <slava> hey arke
18:32:48 <arke> Should I go with C++ instead of C?
18:32:49 <warpzero> slava: java just sucks
18:32:52 <arke> slava: hi! anything new?
18:32:56 <arke> Java is coo
18:33:01 <warpzero> arke: do you want speed or OO?
18:33:03 <slava> warpzero, i reserve that title for c++ :)
18:33:18 <warpzero> java is worse than c++!
18:33:20 <slava> warpzero, having the exact same compiled binary run on different platforms.
18:33:22 <madgarden> warpzero: hmm!
18:33:26 <kc5tja> umm....no.
18:33:28 <arke> warpzero: speed more, so thats why I'm leaning.
18:33:34 <kc5tja> Java is ORDERS of magnitude SUPERIOR to C++.
18:33:43 <slava> pointless arguemnt!
18:33:45 <arke> If C++'s typing system wasn't different from C's, then I would use C++ regardless.
18:33:46 <slava> postfix languages beat the all!
18:33:49 <kc5tja> Everything that CAN be done wrong HAS been done wrong in C++.
18:33:58 <warpzero> arke: well C lets you get great control of whats happening so you can make go fucking fast
18:34:08 <arke> Java is much better than C++, I agree.
18:34:10 <slava> warpzero, malloc() is slower than allocation in java.
18:34:16 <arke> warpzero: yes, :)
18:34:18 <warpzero> kc5tja: at least it has operator overloading
18:34:19 <slava> warpzero, if you don't measure GC anyway
18:34:24 <arke> slava: alloca :)
18:34:32 <kc5tja> warpzero: And this is a good thing?  See my point about doing things wrong above.
18:35:05 <warpzero> kc5tja: yes because you at least dont have to have a million functions that you can never remember
18:35:23 <arke> actually, operator overloading is neat in certain cases.
18:35:42 <kc5tja> No, you don't.  I'll grant you that.  But then, come debug time, you now have to determine which one of a million versions of "+" is being invoked because the compiler thought it knew better than you did.
18:35:48 <slava> so write a fucking java compiler that adds operator overloading.
18:35:53 <slava> its not an intristic limitation of the JVM.
18:36:08 <warpzero> kc5tja: they both suck though
18:36:19 <kc5tja> I believe Java 1.5 is supposed to have (limited?) operator overloading.  Actually, it does one better: it has TRUE parametric polymorphism.
18:36:32 <slava> 1.5 does not have overloading operators in any form, no
18:36:34 <arke> kc5tja: well, thats not operator overloading but parameter overloading.
18:36:38 <kc5tja> So really, it doesn't need operator overloading as we know it in C++.
18:36:44 <arke> eh, thats what I meant
18:36:52 <arke> parametric ploymorpinhms
18:36:56 <slava> it has covariant types, but i haven't groked those yet.
18:36:57 <warpzero> also java's primitives make it suck
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18:37:35 <kc5tja> Well, all I know is that I started to use C++ for my client's project, and switched to C in less than 1 minute and 45 seconds.
18:37:35 <arke> Well, I guess I'm sticking with the C then :)
18:37:37 <arke> hi TheBlueWizard 
18:37:38 <kc5tja> Literally.
18:37:46 <TheBlueWizard> hiya all
18:37:49 <kc5tja> I couldn't get gcc/g++ to build the software because if some bizarre "personality error."
18:37:50 <arke> kc5tja: I don't doubt it.
18:37:55 <arke> kc5tja: its type system is fucked.
18:37:58 <TheBlueWizard> hiya arke
18:38:10 <slava> hi TheBlueWizard
18:38:17 <arke> kc5tja: "invalid conversion from const char to char"
18:38:20 <TheBlueWizard> hiya slava
18:38:20 <warpzero> also templates are stupid
18:38:34 <warpzero> pre-compilation polymophism... oh great
18:38:40 <slava> const strikes me as slightly braindamaged. its like a cancer, make one method const and the rest have to be const too ;)
18:38:43 <madgarden> The syntax of templates is pretty fugly.
18:39:07 <slava> template<class T> T& vector<T>::operator[](const int index) const;
18:39:18 <madgarden> slava: It's so intuitive! :D
18:40:04 <arke> SSSSSHHHHHIIIIITTTTTT
18:40:09 <arke> No :(
18:40:15 <arke> I think I lost the Frapiar Source Tree :(
18:40:18 <arke> FUUUUCK
18:40:23 <slava> arke, :(
18:40:24 <slava> arke, backups?
18:41:18 <arke> well, that was my backup.
18:41:27 <arke> don't trust outlook to keep stuff.
18:41:31 <arke> the basteard.
18:43:33 <madgarden> Outlook < CVS...
18:44:35 <warpzero> lolol
18:46:15 <warpzero> javas allocate is probably faster because it pre-mallocs
18:47:07 <slava> no, because all it has to do is increment the allocation pointer
18:47:09 <arke> alloca is even faster than that, my friend.
18:47:18 <slava> yes but alloca can onyl be used within 1 function
18:47:32 <slava> if your object sticks around, or the gc is done, etc. all the stuff from the nursery is copied into the heap
18:47:37 <slava> allocation in the heap is the same cost as malloc()
18:47:41 <arke> BTW, anybody got any good alternatives to SDL?
18:47:56 <arke> slava: tru e:)
18:48:12 <madgarden> arke: What do you need it for?
18:48:25 <Sonarman> arke: GGI maybe?  what's wrong with SDL?
18:48:28 <warpzero> hey thats cool
18:49:09 <warpzero> you could use alloca from assembly quite effectively i would guess
18:50:19 <slava> alloca is just like having a stack-allocated array except the size is determined at runtime
18:50:31 <warpzero> right
18:50:42 <warpzero> but if your assembly ignored the stack
18:50:47 <slava> wow
18:50:50 <slava> no re-entrant functions
18:51:03 <warpzero> except main()
18:51:35 <warpzero> i bet you could do it in g77
18:53:29 <warpzero> slava: my language doesn't need a stack or re-entrant functions
18:54:20 <arke> I need a fast, easy, cross-platform graphics/event library that is at least somewhat popular
18:54:46 <warpzero> SDL is all you get
18:55:11 <arke> damn.
18:55:28 <arke> whats GGI?
18:56:04 <warpzero> i think its only 2d gfx
18:57:02 <warpzero> of course im usually ignorant about this kind of thing
18:57:05 <warpzero> whats wrong with sdl?
18:57:48 <arke> Just looking for neat alternatives.
18:57:59 <arke> Maybe even something that comes with a semi-themeable widget set
18:58:04 <arke> but nevermind that.
18:58:38 <warpzero> game dev != app dev
18:58:43 <arke> We're Sorry.
18:58:43 <arke>  The SourceForge.net Website is currently down for maintenance.
18:58:43 <arke>  We will be back shortly
18:58:46 <arke>  GRR!
18:58:51 <warpzero> what kind of game are you making?
18:58:53 <arke> game with widgets? :)
18:59:19 <arke> warpzero: epiar.net <-- branch with its own codebase :)
19:00:12 <warpzero> oic
19:00:19 <warpzero> use the code from uqm
19:01:45 * warpzero is away: Emergency monkey!
19:02:36 <arke> I let the cat out of the sack.
19:02:43 <arke> topher knows bout frapiar now.
19:02:48 <arke> lets see how pissed.
19:03:38 <madgarden> arke: There's Allegro, it's not event-based though.
19:04:01 <arke> Well, just something for me to catch events
19:04:06 <arke> like keyboard and mouse and stuff.
19:04:15 <arke> what does allegro provide for me?
19:04:27 <madgarden> You would poll for such events.
19:05:19 <TheBlueWizard> gotta go...bye all
19:05:38 <madgarden> Allegro is a fairly high-level game-oriented C library.
19:05:50 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth
19:05:55 <warpzero> i wud just use sdl but ok
19:06:32 <madgarden> http://alleg.sourceforge.net/
19:08:09 <arke> sf.net is down.
19:09:24 <slava> arke, what a surpise :)
19:09:47 <arke> lol
19:09:56 <arke> whats up with all the damn maintenance :(
19:10:02 <arke> during high time too ack
19:11:33 <madgarden> Works for me...
19:12:11 <arke> well, I decided to stick with SDL.
19:32:52 <blockhead> 'night all
19:32:54 --- quit: blockhead ("Client Exiting")
19:33:08 * kc5tja is using SDL for his current project.
19:33:14 <Herkamir1> arke: glad to hear you're sticking with SDL
19:33:17 <slava> kc5tja, what is it?
19:33:23 <kc5tja> I can't tell you.
19:33:34 <Herkamir1> FWIW I don't think allegro works on my system
19:33:34 <slava> :)
19:34:13 --- nick: Herkamir1 -> Herkamire
20:29:50 --- quit: Nutssh ("Client exiting")
20:31:12 --- join: Nutssh (~Foo@gh-1177.gh.rice.edu) joined #forth
20:31:34 --- part: Nutssh left #forth
20:36:15 <slava> what's the opposite of a literal?
20:36:25 <arke> variable
21:14:55 --- nick: arke -> arke___
21:15:09 --- nick: arke___ -> arke
21:43:15 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK")
21:43:44 <Teratogen> [22:46] #slashdot unable to join channel (invite only)
21:43:45 <Teratogen> huh
21:43:49 <Teratogen> and slashdot appears to be down
22:07:14 <Herkamire> what's the world coming to?
22:07:18 --- join: hovil (~hovil@CommSecureAustPtyLtd.sb1.optus.net.au) joined #forth
22:07:19 <Herkamire> first sf and now ./
22:10:30 <Sonarman> it's SCO's revenge against mydoom
22:13:35 <Herkamire> ??
22:17:04 <cleverdra> oh, nobody cares about slashdot.
22:23:18 <Herkamire> I just read 3 press releases about mydoom on sco.com
22:23:57 <Herkamire> where can I read about what happened to ./ ?
22:27:12 <Sonarman> you know i was joking, right?
22:29:40 <madgarden> ./ was removed from the ANS standard?
22:31:30 <Sonarman> does he mean /. (slashdot)?
22:32:10 <Herkamire> oops. mean /. I thought taht looked funny
22:32:35 <Sonarman> well, slashdot is working fine for me right now
22:33:08 <Herkamire> Sonarman: I didn't realize you were joking. the only things I knew about mydoom were from a couple UserFriendly strips I just read. Those don't exactly let me know what is serious
22:33:14 <Herkamire> me too
22:34:33 <Sonarman> ok :)
22:34:50 <Sonarman> have you seen this: http://www.hypercomplex.org
22:34:53 <Sonarman> amazing
22:36:11 <Herkamire> honestly hearing your joke that sco is atacking slashdot seemed as plausable as them offering $250,000 on someones head.
22:36:35 <Sonarman> heh :)
22:37:51 <Sonarman> offering $250,000 for the passwords file for all E*trade users sounds more plausible to me :)
22:39:12 <Herkamire> hypercomplex.org is awesome. bookmarked
22:39:31 --- quit: Herkamire ("past bedtime")
22:53:35 --- quit: Sonarman ("leaving")
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23:17:12 <mur> hi serg + co.
23:35:14 <Serg> hi !
23:35:41 <Serg> i now missing i440r - i made an XML homepage engine, and he really needs it ;))
23:39:43 <mur> ;)
23:44:27 <Serg> http://cryptomancer.narod.ru
23:44:48 <Serg> all in RU, but XML source is happyli in English ;))
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/04.02.04