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07:32:06 <ASau> Dobryjj vecher!
07:32:39 <mur> privet
07:33:00 <Robert> Privet, mur y ASau 
07:33:10 <Robert> Or whatever the word for "and" was :)
07:34:07 <mur> i
07:34:15 <Robert> Spasiba
07:34:16 <mur> or y
07:34:25 <mur> depepnding on translitteration
07:34:39 <Robert> I'll use "i" then, sounds more Swedish :P
07:39:02 <ASau> "i"
07:39:45 <ASau> There's no "y" as first character in a word.
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08:49:59 * rO| greets
08:50:06 <Robert>  Hi
08:50:18 <Robert> Did you manage to run colorforth?
08:50:49 <rO|> nope, alex contacted then
08:52:02 <ASau> Dobryjj vecher, rO|!
08:52:29 <rO|> Dobryjj vecher, ASau! ;-)
08:56:33 <rO|> who has eforth experience in here?
08:56:53 <rO|> someone seen thefox lately?
08:57:09 <Robert> No.
08:58:36 <rO|> rumours are, chuck's chip will be launched soon
08:59:23 <Robert> Neat..
09:01:50 <rO|> ultratech's onlineshop currently offline, someone knows why (and since/until when)?
09:24:25 <ASau> What interests you in eforth?
09:24:53 <ASau> Eforth is somewhat similar to my Forth.
09:25:41 <ASau> Why not use Ting's site?
09:38:56 <rO|> ASau: your forth? ..
09:39:36 <ASau> I also use asm-written one.
09:40:08 <rO|> ting's site is unavailable, what's your url?
09:40:58 <ASau> Use http://dmoz.org/Computers/Programming/Languages/Forth/
09:41:27 <ASau> IIRC, something like www.eforth.tw
09:41:35 <ASau> Or .com.tw
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09:54:44 <ASau> Dobryjj vecher!
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10:36:02 <Robert> Hi
10:36:57 <slava> hi Robert
10:37:02 <Robert> Hi slava 
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12:02:46 <ASau> Dobryjj vecher!
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12:03:09 <ASau> Dobryjj vecher, Nutssh!
12:03:48 <slava> ASau, is it always the evening where you are? :)
12:04:37 <Nutssh> Hi!
12:06:02 <ASau> Slava, no. It's because I come here in evening.
12:06:24 <slava> :)
12:06:24 <ASau> Sometimes it's morning "here".
12:06:30 <slava> ASau, you're working on your own forth too?
12:06:58 <ASau> No, I'm working on applications mainly.
12:07:20 <ASau> But I improve my forth by the way.
12:08:18 <slava> what's your forth like?
12:08:59 <ASau> FIG-Forth derived.
12:09:23 <ASau> Once it was "FIG-Forth 1.0" :)
12:10:28 <ASau> I hope soon I'll get rid of all these DO's and LOOP's.
12:11:06 <slava> my language has no real loops, everything is recursive -- loops are just defined as functions that take some code on the stack, call the code, and recurse if needed
12:11:42 <ASau> I see you go Joy way.
12:12:07 <slava> yes. hopefully it will be faster than joy :)
12:12:29 <slava> also in joy all the primitives are written in C -- in my language there are only 22 primitives.
12:12:44 <ASau> I see you make some Joy's mistakes.
12:12:57 <ASau> Or drawbacks.
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12:13:58 <slava> ASau, what are joy's mistakes?
12:14:42 <ASau> When you go functional way, you should consider partial application.
12:15:16 <ASau> Joy does:  <cond> <then> <else> if
12:15:27 <slava> indeed
12:15:34 <ASau> Better is:  <else> <then> <cond> if
12:15:45 <slava> why?
12:15:59 <slava> often the condition is a parameter you receive on the stack
12:16:01 <ASau> So you could write:  on-positive ::=  0> if
12:16:12 <slava> so its nice to write : foo ... [ then ] [ else ] ifte ;
12:16:20 <slava> in joy, ifte takes a separate quotation as the condition
12:16:24 <slava> not so in my language
12:16:30 <slava> ifte pops 2 quotations, and a boolean from the stack.
12:16:57 <ASau> I think you never programmed functional style.
12:17:03 <warpzero> go down bill dalton it must be gods will
12:17:15 <slava> : on-positive [ 0 > ] dip when ;
12:17:30 <slava> or
12:17:35 <ASau> What's "dip"
12:17:36 <ASau> ?
12:17:44 <slava> : dip swap >r call r> ;
12:18:11 <ASau> You see you need complex and unnecessary word here.
12:18:39 <slava> i can define a word : ASau-if dip when ;
12:18:47 <slava> : on-positive [ 0 > ] ASau-if ; :-)
12:19:08 <slava> or even better
12:19:27 <slava> : ASau-if swap [ swap ] dip ifte ;
12:19:48 <slava> no sorry :)
12:20:25 <slava> : ASau-if [ swap ] dip swap ifte ;
12:20:28 <slava> or
12:20:41 <slava> ~<< ASau-if-shuffle cond then else -- else then cond >>~
12:20:46 <slava> : ASau-if ASau-if-shuffle ifte ;
12:20:51 <ASau> Have you ever seen books on lambda calculus and combinatory logic?
12:20:55 <slava> yes
12:21:32 <ASau> Then why do you invent mixes postfix-prefix combinators?
12:21:38 <ASau> mixed
12:21:44 <slava> like what?
12:22:03 <slava> you mean : foo ... ;?
12:22:08 <slava> this is just syntax sugar for "foo" [ ... ] define
12:22:20 <ASau> Classic prefix is:  if <cond> <then> <else>
12:23:06 <ASau> If you make it postfix it should be: <else> <then> <cond> if
12:23:46 <ASau> Also this helps to program: eliminates many unnecessary "swap"-s
12:24:06 <slava> you're saying <cond> should be a quotation?
12:24:19 <slava> or a boolean?
12:24:30 <slava> if its a boolean, then <else> <then> <cond> if makes no sense.
12:26:07 <ASau> If you use quotations and values in parallel, then it makes no sense.
12:26:25 <slava> what do you mean?
12:26:48 <ASau> If you want functions as first-class objects, this does.
12:27:40 <ASau> I mean you want develop postfix LISP and do this wrong way.
12:28:15 <slava> you still haven't explained why it is the wrong way, except giving the on-positive example that doesn't make sense.
12:28:22 <slava> is 0> evaluated or pushed onto the stack?
12:28:38 <slava> if it is evaluated, then most uses of on-positive will need to look like this: [ some code to execute ] swap on-positive
12:28:46 <ASau> Pushed.
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12:28:49 <slava> if it is pushed on the stack, then... the syntax is odd
12:29:00 <warpzero> slava: my language has no primitives
12:29:04 <ASau> It's evaluated whet "if" is interpreted.
12:29:11 <slava> don't you mean on-positive ::= [ 0> ] if then?
12:29:22 <slava> how will it know, when reading 0>, that it should push it *before* seeing the if?
12:29:58 <slava> warpzero, explain
12:31:01 <warpzero> slava: no primitive variable types and no primitive operations except if and unless
12:32:06 <slava> warpzero, so how is everything defined?
12:32:20 <warpzero> with the language
12:32:33 <slava> + is a bunch of if and unless?
12:32:48 <warpzero> huh?
12:32:57 <slava> warpzero, how is the addition operator defined then
12:33:07 <warpzero> by the language
12:33:16 <slava> what does it look like?
12:33:19 <slava> inline assembly?
12:33:28 <warpzero> there is a + operator but its not 'add'
12:33:42 <slava> warpzero, what is this language like?
12:33:51 <warpzero> kinda like
12:33:57 <ASau> Hm. So you say "ifte" returns continuation when partially appied?
12:34:00 <warpzero> a super-concurrent version of VHDL
12:34:54 <slava> ASau, no, ifte does not return a continuation.
12:35:28 <slava> ASau, continuations are explicitly captured using a few scheme-like callcc operators.
12:35:54 <warpzero> i think you can make a turing complete language with just 'if' though
12:36:41 <slava> warpzero, yup -- of course you need recursion as well, either explicit or with something like the Y combinator
12:36:55 <warpzero> slava: what
12:44:16 <ASau> Slava, I don't understand your goal.
12:44:51 <ASau> Why do you want first-class word sequences?
12:49:29 <slava> to allow control structures to be defined in the language itself.
12:49:54 <slava> and to simplify syntax.
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12:52:18 <warpzero> sup I440r
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12:53:06 <I440r> hi :)
12:53:16 <slava> hi
12:53:33 <I440r> packing - moving 
12:55:48 <I440r> prolly wont be online much after today
12:55:56 <warpzero> :(?
12:56:19 <I440r> contract ended. going back to indiana. no decent connection there so...
12:57:30 <Robert> Hi
12:57:47 <Robert> Oh, do you have any idea what you'll do now?
12:58:09 <warpzero> I440r: irc doesn't take much bandwidth :(
13:01:39 <slava> the cK language is really weird.
13:01:59 <slava> if you evaluate + with only 1 value on the stack, say 3, instead of signalling an overflow, it pushes a quotation on the stack { 3 + }
13:02:13 <slava> and when another word pops it off the stack for use as a value, it is automatically evalauted.
13:02:32 <slava> i'm not sure i understand the significance of this
13:03:17 <warpzero> its error free
13:03:36 <warpzero> thats pretty cool
13:03:42 <slava> yes but if you evaluate some code with too few elements on the stack it will just keep on pushing bigger and bigger quotations
13:03:43 <ASau> Slava, all Forth control structures are defined in Forth, except primitive BRANCH ?BRANCH.
13:04:05 <slava> ASau, but in forth you need immediate words
13:05:07 <ASau> Slava, yes, we need them. But in your case quotations are frequent.
13:07:14 <slava> ASau, also the continuation code constructs quotations at runtime. at the moment, nothing else does this.
13:08:02 <warpzero> lisp?
13:08:03 <ASau> Hm. You can call INTERPRET when you need.
13:08:29 <slava> warpzero, no. a postfix language similar to forth in some ways.
13:08:51 <warpzero> no i mean constructing quotations
13:09:08 <slava> warpzero, oh i mean nothing else in my language's library
13:09:14 <slava> warpzero, of course lisp macros do this, etc
13:09:22 <ASau> I see one advantage: you can create anonymous words, use them and forget when collecting garbage.
13:09:37 <slava> ASau, indeed.
13:09:42 <ASau> I think I could do this in Forth.
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13:10:31 <warpzero> my language doesn't even have expressions lol
13:10:31 <slava> ASau, I'm not really aiming for theretical purity, or a new paradigm in my language. I just needed a scripting language for a game I'm working on, and decided to cook up something postfix :)
13:10:35 <ASau> Slava, how do you compile? Threaded code?
13:11:03 <slava> ASau, since my language is hosted on the java virtual machine, code is compiled into JVM bytecode, and then the JVM compiles this into assembly.
13:11:12 <ASau> Slava, why not Forth?
13:11:20 <I440r> warp no but my father us a tyrant, he dont let anyone online for more than 5 or 6 minutes at a time heh
13:11:26 <slava> ASau, not all code can be compiled; anything that construts quotations on the fly, or anything that uses continuations.
13:12:00 <slava> why not forth? hmm
13:12:01 <warpzero> I440r: :(
13:12:04 <slava> i wanted to make something new
13:12:28 <ASau> Slava, you can go so that you'll be able to call INTERPRET when you need it.
13:12:48 <slava> what advantage does this get me over the way I do it right now?
13:12:57 <warpzero> slava: If you also added "breaks" to the stack on calls or something so that you can make push-after very useful?
13:13:28 <I440r> warp ill be online every now and then heh
13:13:47 <ASau> Slava, first, you can share someone's code. Second, you can get help.
13:14:35 <ASau> Here or any other place.
13:15:09 <slava> well like i said i didn't want to just make another forth implementation... i wanted to create a new language. its like a learning experience.
13:15:18 <warpzero> I440r: now we will be at the hands of kc5... NOOOO
13:15:31 <slava> ASau, forth's untyped model does not fit very well with the JVM.
13:15:47 <slava> ASau, in my language +/-/*// are overloaded to work with ints, floats, bignums, ratios
13:16:07 <slava> ASau, there is no need for a sepearate floating point stack
13:16:21 <ASau> Slava, there're strong typed Forth-likes. There is Forth for JVM, IIRC.
13:16:44 <I440r> lol
13:16:50 <warpzero> slava: If you also added "breaks" to the stack on calls or something so that you can make push-after very useful?
13:17:04 <I440r> i think kc5 should take over ownership of the channel
13:17:16 <I440r> its still MY channel tho :P\
13:17:27 <I440r> all your forth are belong to me
13:17:37 <slava> warpzero, what is a break on call?
13:17:49 <ASau> Slava, you can overload them for floating point numbers and any other ones too at your wish.
13:18:04 <I440r> brb
13:18:14 <warpzero> slava: you could add to the stack a break? so that it prevents called functions from poping too many tings?
13:18:15 <ASau> Slava, I can suggest some ways to get this.
13:18:31 <slava> warpzero, well i just raise an error :) i'm not sure what you mean exactly.
13:18:39 <slava> ASau, do you have a JVM?
13:18:55 <warpzero> slava: scince at the end of the stack you start forming quotes this would be useful at all places in the stack?
13:19:14 <slava> warpzero, i don't form quotes on the stack -- cK does
13:19:21 <warpzero> slava: oh
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13:22:24 <slava> ASau and warpzero, if you're interested d/l http://slava.kicks-ass.org/slava/Factor.jar. you need sun's jdk 1.4. i intend to get this to work with GNU GCJ too -- it is trivial, since I don't use any GUI libraries.
13:22:43 <slava> that JAR is slightly out of date--the compiler is pretty lame. i'll upload my latest tree a bit later, when it works better.
13:22:54 <warpzero> eh
13:22:56 <warpzero> sok
13:23:00 <slava> sok?
13:23:03 <warpzero> i have my own language to fuck with
13:23:15 <slava> is it postfix?
13:23:37 <I440r> types are a crutch for poor programmers
13:23:43 <I440r>   - chuck moore
13:23:49 <I440r> however
13:23:50 <slava> i disagree :)
13:23:57 <I440r> chuick is a heretic :)
13:23:59 <slava> maybe static typing where everything has to be declared
13:24:02 <I440r> but then so am i heh
13:24:08 <slava> but dynamic typing is fun
13:24:19 <slava> why would i want to use the bit pattern of a float as a fixnum, etc?
13:24:36 <I440r> im a dynamic  typer - they way i type any given word can be different ever time
13:24:37 <I440r> heh
13:24:37 <warpzero> slava: it doesn't have expressions dude
13:24:53 <slava> warpzero, i give up :)
13:24:53 <I440r> every
13:25:15 <warpzero> slava: you know postfix/prefix/infix are all types of expressions
13:25:22 <slava> warpzero, yes
13:25:26 <slava> warpzero, how can you not have expressions?
13:25:30 <warpzero> it doesn't have them
13:25:31 <slava> warpzero, post some sample code.
13:25:32 <warpzero> easily
13:26:13 <warpzero> of what
13:26:18 <slava> anything.
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13:26:24 <warpzero> Event merging: # < $ *integer c $ < $ *integer a $ *integer b [ ^ ^ ] > r # *util.equal e1 [ 0 c ] [ # <> [ c <> [ # *r.a ] [ 1 c ] ? 0 ] [ c <> [ # *r.b ] [ *r # ] [ 0 c ] ! 0 ] >
13:26:55 <warpzero> there is some sample code
13:27:20 <slava> how is this not an expresion?
13:27:24 <warpzero> its not
13:27:33 <slava> what is $ and #
13:28:05 <warpzero>    1.  $ <ic or less> <ic+1 or more>
13:28:06 <warpzero>          1. Internally names a <vc> in <c+1>
13:28:06 <warpzero>          2. The first argument is a 'type' and the second is a 'name'.
13:29:06 <slava> warpzero, are you designing your own ICs?
13:29:11 <warpzero> no
13:29:21 <slava> why VHDL then? isn't that what its used for?
13:29:42 <warpzero> it just kinda works like vhdl
13:29:46 <warpzero> its erally nothing like it
13:30:00 <warpzero> its for software not hardware
13:30:24 <warpzero> its super-concurrent too
13:30:37 <slava> what kind of programs are you going to write in it?
13:30:43 <warpzero> daemons
13:30:53 <slava> network servers?
13:31:11 <warpzero> stuff like mail/irc daemons
13:31:30 <slava> ok
13:31:51 <warpzero> which its going to fail at because the code is so fucking ugly but oh well
13:32:50 <slava> i wrote an httpd in my language, it was pretty easy.
13:33:00 <slava> it does directory listings, server side scripts, but otherwise its kind of lame
13:33:22 <warpzero> your language is implemented in java?
13:33:36 <slava> i want to use it for the help system though -- so you can browse a dynamically generated list of word definitions and their descriptions, and have the code be syntax highlighted, etc
13:33:59 <slava> warpzero, yes, the interpreter and compiler is written in java; the compiler outputs JVM bytecode. eventually the compiler will get rewritten in the language itself.
13:34:36 <warpzero> must go slow
13:35:07 <slava> no, its quite fast. i'm sure its faster than gforth, or most lisps.
13:35:24 <warpzero> what
13:35:30 <warpzero> it goes fast and its written in jav
13:35:31 <warpzero> a
13:35:33 <slava> word definitions are compiled into assembly by the JVM.
13:35:36 <warpzero> that makes no sense
13:35:43 <warpzero> gcj?
13:35:49 <slava> gcj is slow as shit
13:35:58 <slava> sun's jvm is *very* fast these days. the GUI library is slow.
13:36:10 <slava> an object allocation is 10 machine instructions. this is much faster than, eg, malloc().
13:36:28 <warpzero> when did that happen
13:36:35 <slava> i want to get my language to run on gcj though
13:36:42 <slava> so that it works with an all-free software base
13:36:59 <warpzero> AF will probably go faster though, because it doesn't even need call/ret
13:37:08 <slava> what is AF?
13:37:10 <slava> your lang?
13:37:13 <warpzero> oh yeah
13:37:17 <warpzero> it stands for Argonflame
13:37:23 <warpzero> http://wza.us/af/
13:37:32 <slava> i'm writing a game in java. but i'm not using java's GUI library, i'm using opengl! its very neat.
13:38:09 <warpzero> coolies
13:38:10 <slava> java's problem is memory footprint.
13:38:12 <warpzero> what kind of game is it
13:38:15 <slava> its huuuuuuge
13:38:21 <slava> warpzero, shoot-em-up/RPG :)
13:38:26 <warpzero> okay
13:38:28 <warpzero> not exciting
13:38:37 <slava> oh, it is very exciting.
13:38:44 <warpzero> i want new exciting game in the "typing teacher" genre
13:38:52 <slava> :)
13:39:01 <warpzero> because i love playing typing games
13:39:10 <slava> write on in your language :)
13:39:26 <warpzero> i keep fucking around with af's spec so i can't implement it
13:40:03 <warpzero> like just last week i axed about half of language and replaced it with #
13:40:43 <warpzero> # is the Y combinator i think you were talking about earlier if i understood you right
13:40:50 <slava> aha
13:41:45 <warpzero> the point of the language is clustring/griding though
13:41:55 <slava> implicit parallelization is cool
13:42:05 <warpzero> yea
13:42:29 <slava> why not write a simpler to use language frontend that is preprocessed into AF?
13:42:39 <warpzero> huh?
13:42:46 <slava> you said the syntax is fucking ugly above :)
13:42:51 <warpzero> it is
13:42:56 <warpzero> but its not uglier than say
13:42:57 <warpzero> java
13:43:04 <slava> </flamebait> :)
13:43:10 <slava> java is as ugly as C.
13:43:20 <warpzero> once you have all the high level abstractions its pretty simple
13:43:28 <slava> imperitive languages are ugly in general.
13:43:30 <warpzero> Adding two constants: $ < # *math.add add1 $ integer x [ 2 *add1 ] [ 3 *add1 ] [ *add1 *x ] >
13:45:42 <slava> what are the 2 and 3?
13:45:47 <warpzero> constants
13:46:04 <slava> so this code adds 2 and 3?
13:46:07 <warpzero> anything thats not a special symbol is a constant
13:46:12 <warpzero> yeah
13:46:22 <slava> that's fucking verbose
13:46:27 <warpzero> i told u
13:46:33 <slava> any way to make it more concise?
13:46:47 <warpzero> nope
13:47:03 <slava> and here you are bashing java syntax :)
13:47:09 <warpzero> java is horrible
13:47:18 <warpzero> no operator overloading makes it just suck
13:47:33 <slava> depends on what you're doing.
13:47:43 <warpzero> not really
13:47:52 <slava> operator overloading is a good idea, but not as implemented in C++.
13:47:57 <slava> overloading = is retarded
13:48:15 <warpzero> but yeah i will add expressions at some point so that its not so fucking verbose
13:48:41 <slava> is there a theoretical basis for your language?
13:48:45 <warpzero> yeah
13:48:58 <slava> not being like java? :)
13:49:02 <warpzero> no
13:50:39 <warpzero> the theoretical basis is reality
13:50:48 <warpzero> this isn't actually a programming language for computers
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13:51:13 <warpzero> espcecially scince there aren't any types
13:51:18 <slava> what?
13:51:30 <warpzero> like the 'integer' above doesn't actually exist
13:51:41 <warpzero> its supposedly defined in the language
13:51:41 <slava> so writing an interpreter is not possible? :)
13:51:50 <warpzero> yeah
13:52:11 <ASau> Why not use natural language then?
13:52:17 <warpzero> well writing an interpereter on a finite machine isn't
13:52:30 <warpzero> writing one on an infinite machine should be possible
13:52:32 <slava> warpzero, so what are you trying to achieve?
13:52:49 <warpzero> slava: a fast super-concurrent language
13:52:58 <slava> but if it cannot be used...?
13:53:02 <warpzero> it CAN
13:53:05 <warpzero> you just have to cheat
13:53:09 <slava> right
13:53:51 <slava> speaking of cuncurrency, i'm going to make continuation objects serializable and transportable between machines in my language.
13:53:59 <slava> java makes this easy.
13:54:02 <warpzero> true for mine
13:54:15 <warpzero> its an obvious advantage
13:54:25 <warpzero> grid computing over different hardware
13:55:06 <warpzero> you're doing it with java bytecode
13:55:16 <warpzero> i'm doing it with argonflame bytecode
13:57:10 <slava> do you realize that in the idealized model for AF (infinite machine), any NP problem can be solved in polynomial time?
13:57:27 <warpzero> yes
13:57:36 <slava> and on a quantum computer, (I think some) NP problems can be solved in polynomial time
13:57:47 <warpzero> its a modeling language for reality on an infinite machine
13:57:50 <slava> maybe there's a connection then, between quantum computing and your language. but I really haev no idea :)
13:58:10 <warpzero> it would likely be at least VERY FAST on quantum computer
13:58:40 <warpzero> because i think then the code would become concurrent-circut like for an infinite concurrency
13:59:23 <warpzero> so any iterations would occur in O(1)
14:00:20 <warpzero> reducing the order of most problems
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14:01:16 <vegemite> I don't see why a macro preprocessor can't be part of the forth "incremental interpret/compile" cycle
14:01:22 --- nick: vegemite -> Teratogen
14:01:26 <Teratogen> macro preprocessors rule!
14:01:38 <slava> Teratogen, immediate words are alrady like a preprocessor
14:01:46 <warpzero> vegemite: Do you come from a land down under?
14:01:48 <Teratogen> like, but not the same
14:01:49 <Teratogen> no
14:01:56 <slava> Teratogen, like lisp macros?
14:02:07 <Teratogen> text preprocessing is text preprocessing
14:02:08 <slava> forth is assembler where the programmer is the pre-processor :)
14:02:19 <Teratogen> it happens before the lisp or forth "interpreter" touches the code
14:02:25 <slava> like cpp?
14:02:25 <Teratogen> it's a separate step, basically
14:02:30 <Teratogen> exactly
14:02:40 <ASau> m4 is better.
14:02:58 <Teratogen> sure, but is m4 gonna be on every system that you deploy a package?
14:03:00 <Teratogen> answer: no.
14:03:08 <ASau> Why?
14:03:14 <Teratogen> so it's better if every computer language have it's own closely-coupled macro preprocessor
14:03:19 <Teratogen> ASau, good example
14:03:23 <Teratogen> perl provides -P
14:03:24 <ASau> GNU is everywhere.
14:03:33 <warpzero> just package m4 with your app dummy
14:03:34 <Teratogen> which runs the perl code through the cpp macro preprocessor
14:03:40 <Teratogen> works fine on most *nix systems
14:03:49 <Teratogen> but it usually fails miserably on a winblowz box
14:03:49 <slava> i don't understand why you'd want a preprocessor for forth
14:06:04 <ASau> I see, but that's not needed in most cases.
14:06:31 <ASau> I don't think macroprocessor helps in these cases too.
14:14:07 <slava> ASau, i still don't get your on-positive == 0> if example.
14:23:00 <warpzero> [14:52:09] <ASau> Why not use natural language then? <-- wait what
14:26:23 <ASau> Slava, it's like combinatory logic but postfix.
14:26:46 <slava> ASau, yes but your example won't work in any language. you'd need to quote 0> somehow then.
14:27:04 <ASau> I can't understand what do you want.
14:27:25 <ASau> I mean in the whole.
14:27:27 <slava> how would on-positive be used? give an example.
14:27:29 <warpzero> ASau: what did you mean by natural language?
14:27:43 <ASau> warpzero, Russian, of course.
14:28:14 <ASau> What another language is natural for me?!
14:28:46 <warpzero> ASau: ?????
14:29:10 <ASau> Natural languages are those which are spoken by people.
14:29:39 <warpzero> So what were you suggesting? That I make a natural language interpereter?
14:29:40 <ASau> Russian, English, German, Swedish etc.
14:30:09 <ASau> Restricted natural language.
14:30:15 <warpzero> Its been done.
14:31:51 <slava> ASau, how would on-positive be used? give an example.\
14:33:36 * warpzero tries to figure out how to relate things and packages
14:36:40 <rO|> who's interested in creating a wiki (written in forth)?
14:37:14 <slava> rO|, i intend to someday...
14:38:02 <rO|> testing acweb and fscript atm, works flawlessly
14:38:22 <rO|> up to now ;-)
14:40:07 <rO|> someone got a little more experience w/ the spforth websuite?
14:45:18 <rO|> ASau: you REALLY speak russian? :-)
14:45:41 <rO|> how nice/practical ;-)
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14:52:57 <ASau> rO|, I was born here, I live here.
14:54:13 <warpzero> call me a shithead in russian
14:54:45 <ASau> Slava, for example simple exception handler. Like:  [ error ] on-zero
14:55:02 <warpzero> ASau: call me a shithead in russian
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15:07:39 <slava> ASau, so why is error quoted, but 0> is not?
15:08:36 <ASau> I don't know your syntax enough.
15:10:42 <slava> my syntax is whitespace separated tokens; some are literals, others are words. a list literal is just [ ... ]
15:11:30 <rO|> could someone plz do me a favour and login into my test acftp ftpd?
15:14:02 <OrngeTide> warpzero, skoo-shai hooee smaslem. (i romanized it as best as I could so you could pronounce it)
15:14:09 <rO|> as a reward you can dl the working enth0.4 image+cfg for bochs.. ;-)
15:15:18 <OrngeTide> rO|, does your acftp run under bochs?
15:15:28 <warpzero> lol
15:15:50 <OrngeTide> warpzero, (btw. that means: eat dick with butter)
15:16:08 <warpzero> lol
15:16:10 <warpzero> thats great
15:16:12 <warpzero> i love it
15:16:28 <OrngeTide> warpzero, my russian fiance teaches me all kinds of dirty words.
15:16:39 <ASau> OrngeTide, 8-)
15:16:45 <warpzero> you have a russian fiance?
15:16:59 <OrngeTide> warpzero, well she's american. but he family is russian and she speaks/reads russian
15:17:04 <OrngeTide> s/he/her
15:17:12 <warpzero> oic
15:18:16 <rO|> OrngeTide: acftp not on bochs now, why?
15:18:43 <OrngeTide> rO|, well i'd only be impressed if you had it on bochs. what is acftp anyways?
15:19:03 <OrngeTide> i like QEMU better than bochs. it runs a lot faster on my ibook
15:19:03 <warpzero> arr-zero-pipe
15:20:09 <rO|> OrngeTide: forth ftpd, see sf.net or spforth
15:20:45 <OrngeTide> rO|, that's what i thought. but it doesn't run under a forth OS?
15:22:07 <OrngeTide> oh. my friend is finally breaking down to learn forth. what is an example of some forth code that shows a very pratical application but is very clean and easy to read to a forth newbie? .. I thought about just xeroxing the source to the Cannon Cat for him. but i'm sure kinkos would charge me like $90 to copy that many pages.
15:23:50 <slava> OrngeTide, the source to a forth implementation perhaps ;)
15:24:41 <OrngeTide> slava, yea. i recommend pygmy forth since he is more familiar with DOS than Linux.
15:24:48 <rO|> OrngeTide: under which forth os do you want it to run?
15:25:10 <OrngeTide> rO|, well you'd have to pick a forth OS with a TCP stack. so that narrows down the choices a tad:)
15:25:24 <ASau> acFTP --- ftp server for SP-Forth after Andrejj Cherezov.
15:25:40 <OrngeTide> i've never used spforth. is it better than IsForth?
15:25:47 <ASau> acWEB --- HTTP server after Andrejj Cherezov.
15:26:06 <OrngeTide> writing a webserver in forth would be easier than an ftp server. imo
15:26:08 <ASau> See: acweb.sf.net
15:26:17 <Robert> "< OrngeTide> oh. my friend is finally breaking down to learn forth." <--- haha. :)
15:26:20 <OrngeTide> I'll point my friend to that perhaps.
15:26:31 <Robert> That sounds great.
15:27:25 <rO|> a 2min test install of acweb is here: http://bjazz.mine.nu/
15:27:41 <OrngeTide> it's funny. my friend has been anti-forth since I've known him. he's a hardware guy and he was toying around with making a small free processor core to put into an fpga that doesn't eat up a lot of space and stumbled onto MuP21/F21 on his own. now he wants to learn forth because he realized that you could have a really fast processor in only a tiny amount of space.
15:27:49 <ASau> SP-Forth is for DOS (old versions) and Windows (new versions).
15:27:50 <slava> why would you be anti-forth?
15:27:56 <slava> i don't use c++, but i'm not anti-c++, etc.
15:28:12 <rO|> a 2min test install of acftp is here: ftp://bjazz.mine.nu/
15:28:16 <ASau> Porting to Linux is planned (Dmitrijj Jakimov, IIRC).
15:28:32 <I440r> OrngeTide, get him in  here
15:28:49 <OrngeTide> slava, he tried to learn forth like 15 years ago on his macintosh and thought the syntax was really terrible and gross. 
15:29:08 <I440r> what syntax :P
15:29:13 <OrngeTide> I440r, well he's not quite ready for that. he might go to an SVFIG though.
15:29:39 <slava> OrngeTide, gross syntax? he meant gross set of words in his forth implementation :)
15:29:43 <OrngeTide> although honestly he could learn more in here than SVFIG. no offense but a lot of the people in SVFIG openly admit to not knowing forth or ever have written a forth program.
15:29:55 <I440r> ornge he can learn alot in here too :)
15:29:59 <OrngeTide> slava, at the time he didn't like postfix notation.
15:30:08 <slava> i think postfix is neat :)
15:30:13 <OrngeTide> I440r, that's what i mean. he could learn MORE in here.
15:30:18 <slava> just don't have words that take more than 3 or 4 parameters tought.
15:30:20 <I440r> but they love it anyway eh ?? hehe
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15:30:29 <slava> *though
15:30:34 <OrngeTide> I440r, they are really and odd bunch
15:31:05 <OrngeTide> I440r, i'd say 30% are profeciant in forth. 30% roughly understand it and have written maybe a few short routines. and 30% have not written anything.
15:31:32 <I440r> how do they know about isforth?
15:31:52 <slava> OrngeTide, what is SVFIG?
15:32:07 <OrngeTide> slava, Silicon Valley Forth Interest Group
15:32:09 <I440r> silicone vally forth interest group
15:32:14 <I440r> what he said heh
15:32:55 <OrngeTide> I440r, well 60% of them are familiar with forth. i'd say about 5 out of 25 people recognized IsForth immediately when i mentioned it
15:33:05 <I440r> wow
15:33:06 <I440r> heh
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15:33:13 <I440r> <-- phamus!!!
15:34:03 <slava> do forths typically have any kind of package system?
15:34:09 <slava> to avoid name clashes in large bodies of code?
15:34:15 <OrngeTide> slava, it's called a dictionary
15:34:23 <slava> OrngeTide, as in, swapping dictionaries around?
15:34:28 <OrngeTide> forth is lightyears ahead of C
15:34:47 <slava> OrngeTide, i mean something like lisp's symbols; if you intern "foo" in package A its a different symbol than "foo" in package B
15:34:50 <slava> and the package is set when reading a file
15:34:53 <OrngeTide> slava, well bigger forths support multiple dictionaries and just have a search order for them. you can tweak the search order in your code.
15:35:03 <OrngeTide> slava, this is an ANS forth feature. so it's pretty common
15:35:08 <slava> OrngeTide, ok
15:35:14 <OrngeTide> actually i think itw as in F83 too
15:35:31 <OrngeTide> i'm not really that good with forth. so don't ask me what the words are to do this:)
15:36:20 <ASau> Slava, Forth has vocabularies. This eliminates name clash completely. CONTEXT , odnako.
15:36:46 <I440r> it was developed in the 83 std i think
15:36:59 <I440r> ans forth calls them (ghey camp voice) word lists
15:37:04 <I440r> bleh
15:37:17 <ASau> I440r, it was developped in FIG-Forth ;)
15:37:51 <OrngeTide> ASau, thanks.
15:38:15 <ASau> Maybe it was developped even earlier.
15:45:33 --- quit: warpzero (Client Quit)
15:49:49 <rO|> OK thx
15:50:07 --- part: rO| left #forth
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15:54:30 <Robert> Hi
16:02:41 <ASau> On line.
16:04:16 <warpzero> On line.
16:22:07 --- join: Nutssh (~Foo@gh-1029.gh.rice.edu) joined #forth
16:22:34 <Robert> Hi Nutssh 
16:22:58 <slava> hi Nutssh
16:23:32 <Nutssh> Hi.
16:23:35 <ASau> Dobryjj nocher!
16:23:46 <Nutssh> Superbowl commercials are rather good this year.
16:24:11 <warpzero> Nutssh: oh ur watching them too?
16:25:33 <Sonarman> yeah they're good, but what's with those long periods in between them of people running around on the grass?
16:25:56 <warpzero> thats what i said
16:26:41 <Nutssh> Yup. Heh.. :)  Football isn't that bad to watch, compared to some sports. 
16:26:59 <warpzero> yeah it is
16:27:34 <Nutssh> Golf. Baseball... And comparable to soccer.
16:27:46 <warpzero> golf is evil
16:28:40 <Nutssh> What was the dilbert comic with electronic golf?
16:28:53 <warpzero> ive seen that one
16:30:02 <warpzero> bud light lol
16:30:22 <warpzero> omg cigs r bad 4 u
16:30:27 <warpzero> hurrz
16:31:02 <warpzero> charmin what
16:39:06 <warpzero> pepsi ++
16:39:39 <warpzero> bizzaro ibm linux ad
16:49:05 <Nutssh> Yeah. Really bizarre linux ad. I didn't get it.
16:49:30 <warpzero> there are a bunch like that
16:49:34 <warpzero> ibm they are gone insane
16:49:42 <warpzero> pepsi is doing quite well though
16:51:52 <warpzero> think ibm will abandon aix?
16:53:31 <warpzero> chevy++
17:05:25 <qFox> hm, not sure where to ask, and googling is kinda impossible on this, but i just saw the movie "pi", and in that movie they claimed the thora was basicly built up of numbers... and the whole language (uhm whatever judism-language is called..?) is entirely logical since every word is a number.... is this true or not? anyone know?
17:05:59 <warpzero> yes
17:06:00 <warpzero> its true
17:06:10 <warpzero> hebrew is a mathematical language kindof
17:06:16 <qFox> hebrew, thassit
17:06:18 <qFox> hm
17:06:21 <warpzero> because each letter is a number
17:06:23 <qFox> that peaked my intrest
17:06:28 <warpzero> and the bible has no spaces or breaks
17:06:31 <qFox> or peaks rather...
17:06:39 <warpzero> and hebrew has no vowels either
17:06:53 <warpzero> so the old testament is one long vowel-less word
17:07:00 <warpzero> it has all sorts of hidden shit in it
17:07:26 <qFox> i find that very intresting
17:07:31 <warpzero> its practically a non-binary data set
17:08:36 <qFox> yes well in the movie, the example of mother and father was given
17:08:43 <qFox> how the number combined makes, child was it?
17:09:00 <qFox> and that whole thing... i find it very intresting
17:09:07 <warpzero> kabbalah is an entire branch of judaism that is about decrypting the old testament
17:09:21 <warpzero> i havent seen pi tho
17:10:27 <qFox> well it was about logic and stuff
17:10:32 <qFox> about finding the repeatence of pi
17:10:40 <warpzero> oic
17:10:43 <qFox> and how this number represented the word god in hebrew
17:10:53 <qFox> 218 digits i believe
17:10:59 <qFox> since there's no word for god in hebrew?
17:11:15 <warpzero> yeah there isn't
17:11:43 <qFox> well i'll look into it later
17:11:43 <warpzero> or at least it was considered sacrilige to say it so
17:11:48 <qFox> it certainly has peaked my intrest
17:12:29 <qFox> i find the concept itself funny enough
17:12:38 <qFox> creating a speaking language in numbers
17:12:48 <qFox> where the words all make logic too
17:12:50 <qFox> :)
17:13:41 <warpzero> it does it because
17:13:54 <warpzero> without breaks or vowels its very high entropy
17:14:31 <warpzero> like the bible is uncompressable in its numeric form thats how high entropy it is
17:14:54 <slava> warpzero, so the bible is random data? :)
17:15:02 <warpzero> or encrypted
17:15:04 <qFox> yea i have no idea about hebrew, not a single word
17:15:08 <qFox> so i dont know yet
17:15:21 <qFox> and i never looked at the bible that way, so i cant say much about that either
17:16:59 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@pc51dn1d.ppp.FCC.NET) joined #forth
17:16:59 --- mode: ChanServ set +o TheBlueWizard
17:17:03 <TheBlueWizard> hiya all
17:24:53 <warpzero> sup
17:25:12 <TheBlueWizard> nothing much
17:25:22 <TheBlueWizard> just busy passing gas :)
17:31:00 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@66-91-231-74.san.rr.com) joined #forth
17:31:09 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja
17:31:11 <TheBlueWizard> hiya kc5tja
17:31:30 <kc5tja> Howdy
17:31:50 * kc5tja just had the worst possible day today at work.
17:32:13 <Sonarman> tell us sadists about it :)
17:32:28 --- quit: qFox ("if at first you dont succeed, quit again")
17:32:29 <warpzero> sup kc5tja
17:32:31 <TheBlueWizard> lol
17:32:37 <slava> hey kc5tja
17:32:39 <kc5tja> At the end of the day, I walked into the men's locker room, and cried like a baby.
17:32:56 <kc5tja> It was just non-stop negative criticism all day today.
17:33:03 <kc5tja> All day yesterday.
17:33:05 <kc5tja> All day the day before.
17:33:20 <kc5tja> Today I just had to break down.
17:33:47 <slava> :(
17:34:07 <kc5tja> I feel better now, like a huge burden had been lifted from my chest.
17:34:07 <TheBlueWizard> are you saying the employees are being mean to you?
17:34:14 <kc5tja> No, not mean.
17:34:31 <kc5tja> Just things like, "Sam, we need those potatoes peeled NOW!  You're an hour and a half late!"
17:34:59 <kc5tja> "Sam, we need shake mix now!  and when you're done with that, go clean the men's room -- the trashcans are overflowing,"
17:35:09 <kc5tja> Then when I'd get back, "Sam, what took you so long?  JESUS!"
17:35:43 <TheBlueWizard> I see...that sucks
17:35:45 <kc5tja> Stupid things like that.
17:36:05 <kc5tja> Today, I could see, since we had over half our workforce call in "sick."  (Uh huh)
17:36:15 <kc5tja> So my manager was rather pissed off about that.
17:36:18 <slava> kc5tja, where do you work?
17:36:22 <TheBlueWizard> ah!
17:36:25 <kc5tja> slava: In-N-Out Burger.
17:38:10 <slava> kc5tja, :(
17:38:15 <slava> kc5tja, you need to find a job hacking forth!
17:38:21 <kc5tja> slava: No such jobs exist.
17:38:27 <kc5tja> Those that do are already filled.
17:38:49 <kc5tja> Besides, I'm already doing freelance software development work at the moment.
17:39:30 <kc5tja> Plus school.
17:39:39 <kc5tja> That reminds me, classes for me starts tomorrow.  >:/
17:39:47 <kc5tja> I have to figure out a parking situation here really quick.
17:51:20 --- quit: I440r ("Leaving")
18:01:05 * kc5tja is so tired now.
18:01:46 <warpzero> heh
18:02:31 <slava> what makes postfix great?
18:02:44 <slava> i need to explain this to some guys in #java :)
18:02:47 <warpzero> no fukkin parens
18:02:51 <slava> not sure now to do it best :)
18:02:53 <kc5tja> More formally,
18:03:02 <kc5tja> postfix is the only form that enables concatenative programming.
18:03:29 <kc5tja> A language is concatenative when you can take any arbitrary program A, and tack another program B onto the end, and have a valid program C as a result.
18:03:48 <kc5tja> This can work in reverse too, which makes things like refactoring trivial.
18:03:55 <slava> yes
18:04:04 <kc5tja> More importantly, a refactoring editor for a concatenative language is basically one that has only cut-n-paste.  :)
18:04:09 <slava> the java crowd's arguemtn is that "we have hugely complex and bloated tools (like IDEA and eclipse) that do refactoring for us"
18:04:21 <slava> or along those lines
18:05:20 <ASau> No need for those tools.
18:05:29 <kc5tja> Simpler language, simpler tools, simpler programs, all combined leads to significantly reduced bug counts, quicker time to market, higher profit margins, and greater productivity.
18:05:34 <chandler> kc5tja: does that language have to hold for any programs A and B?
18:05:38 <chandler> er, statement
18:06:01 <slava> as long as A and B don't do funky stuff with the return stack,etc
18:06:12 <kc5tja> chandler: Since I didn't say that the resulting program C needed to be coherent, yes.
18:06:35 <kc5tja> This means that Forth isn't 100% concatenative (the fact that it forward-parses some constructs, like : and CREATE, forbids it).
18:06:55 <kc5tja> But it's concatenative enough that most people consider it the quintessential example of a real-world concatenative language.
18:07:08 <chandler> ok, so then lisp is not concatenative because the introspective abilities allow the program A to change the environment that B would require
18:07:33 <slava> i think being concatenative also means you can split programs
18:07:36 <kc5tja> chandler: Introspection has nothing to do with this.  I believe Joy also permits introspection, yet it's still a concatenative language.
18:07:42 <kc5tja> It's just a matter of
18:07:43 <kc5tja> 1 2 +
18:07:46 <chandler> er, destructive introspection :-)
18:07:46 <kc5tja> combined with 3 4 *
18:07:56 <slava> and also, just 2 + by itself is a valid program.
18:08:02 <kc5tja> to produce 1 2 + 3 4 *, which is itself a valid program.
18:08:05 <slava> and 1 by itself is also valid, as is + 4 *, etc.
18:08:10 <warpzero> wtf is refactoring
18:08:39 <kc5tja> warpzero: Changing the structure of a program without changing its semantics (usually to make it easier to read, maintain, etc).
18:08:49 <warpzero> oic
18:09:16 <warpzero> hmm that should be relatively easy in AF
18:09:28 <warpzero> considering its strict heirarchical structure
18:10:07 <kc5tja> RATS!  Sun went down!  I wanted to set up my ham radio antenna (somehow).
18:10:19 <madgarden> Hmm... flashlight?
18:10:31 <kc5tja> Still, black wire in black skies....  :)
18:10:37 <kc5tja> Flash light or not, it'll be difficlut. 
18:10:43 <kc5tja> difficult rather
18:10:49 <madgarden> IR goggles! :D
18:10:50 <kc5tja> Still might try it though.
18:11:10 <chandler> I guess I still don't have a precise idea of what separates a concatenative language from a non-concatenative one. Would it be correct to say that in a concatentaive language, each atomic part of a program is also a valid program, and that this is not true for a non-concatenative language?
18:11:26 <madgarden> Well, perhaps some reflective tape on the antennae. I dunno if that's a no-no or not though.
18:11:34 <kc5tja> chandler: Yes.
18:11:37 <slava> chandler, i'm not sure. in lisp each atomic part is a valid program too
18:11:44 <slava> does concatenative have to imply stack?
18:12:00 <kc5tja> slava: However, the construct (if (let isn't a valid Lisp program.
18:12:15 <slava> kc5tja, yes, and the construct : sq dup is not a valid forth program
18:12:15 <chandler> slava: "if" isn't a valid lisp program
18:12:34 <chandler> kc5tja: that's not a valid way to take a subset of a lisp program... lisp programs are not text
18:12:36 <kc5tja> slava: I said above that Forth wasn't 100% concatenative, and gave the reasons why (: being one of them)
18:12:52 <kc5tja> chandler: My piont still holds though.
18:12:56 <kc5tja> chandler: As does slava's.
18:12:57 <slava> kc5tja, what about my factor language: it uses [ ... ] for linked list literals. and [ a b c is not a valid program
18:13:05 <warpzero> assembly is concatentive and not stack based
18:13:06 <slava> kc5tja, or even joy uses this syntax
18:13:10 <kc5tja> slava: Then yours is not 100% concatenative either.
18:13:26 <kc5tja> I don't believe it is possible to get 100% concatenativity.
18:13:35 <chandler> kc5tja: I understand, I'm just saying that by that argument I could say that forth is not purely concatenative because while "if" is a word, "i" and "f" are not... write conclusion, wrong argument :-)
18:14:21 <slava> why is ChanServ in this channel?
18:14:30 <chandler> argh, "right"
18:14:32 <chandler> my brain must be fried
18:15:29 <kc5tja> Anyway, I'm going to go out and do some more research about setting up my antenna.  I refuse to let a $2500 radio go to waste.
18:15:29 <slava> i think in a concatenative language you must consider list literals, etc as one unit; just like a number literal. since they both just push themselves on the stack when evaluated.
18:15:37 <kc5tja> (even if my antenna for it is sorely suboptimal)
18:16:11 <chandler> kc5tja: and a giant "thppppbt" from those who are currently rig-less
18:16:34 <warpzero> argonflame is not concatentive at all
18:17:01 <kc5tja> chandler: Hey, I saved up for 7 years to buy a good rig.
18:17:25 <TheBlueWizard> kc5tja: do you consider Postscript quite concatentive?
18:17:50 <kc5tja> TheBlueWizard: I think it is more concatenative than Forth is, yes.  It's close to Joy in overall structure.
18:19:04 * TheBlueWizard nods
18:19:12 * TheBlueWizard will have to look at Joy
18:19:30 <slava> joy is purely interpreted right?
18:19:50 * TheBlueWizard then wonders whether flowchart is concatentive :-D
18:20:23 <kc5tja> slava: Yes, I believe it is.
18:20:31 <kc5tja> My friend Billy Tanskely runs the Concatenative mailing list.
18:21:44 <warpzero> you are such a space alien kc5tja
18:22:17 <chandler> TheBlueWizard: most flowcharts generally require certain inputs to eg decision processes in order to be "valid"
18:23:15 <kc5tja> warpzero: Thank you.
18:26:20 <TheBlueWizard> chandler: it seems the definition of concatentive is a bit subjective...does it require input?   for example:  : hello ." hello" ; : world ."  world" ; can be concatentated....
18:26:25 <warpzero> you work at an in and out burger but know everything about forth and have friends that are also hardcore
18:26:35 <chandler> I think I grok "concatenative" now... let me try at one more slightly precise definition: a language is concatenative if all valid programs in that language are either a member of a finite set of atoms or a non-empty set of atoms
18:26:39 <chandler> does that sound right?
18:27:57 <chandler> er, slight rephrase: each valid program is either a member of the set of atoms A, or is itself a non-empty set of elements which are also elements of the set A
18:28:38 <chandler> TheBlueWizard: I'd say that the particular example you gave is not strictly concatenative as ." hello" and ." world" are not atoms
18:28:45 <chandler> at least as I understand the concept right now
18:28:55 <warpzero> chandler: by that definition af is concatentative and its not very
18:29:51 <chandler> warpzero: hm, why do you say it's concatenative by that definition?
18:29:58 <chandler> my definition disallows string literals for instance
18:30:52 <chandler> in order to construct a string you'd have to have a set of operators that pushed a particular ASCII character onto some kind of stack or appended it to a string
18:30:56 <warpzero> because my language is like your second definition?
18:31:15 <chandler> so you have a finite set of atoms?
18:32:16 <warpzero> infinite but yeah
18:32:29 <chandler> my second definition wasn't intended to remove the word "infinite"
18:32:37 <chandler> er, "finite"
18:32:45 <chandler> I am really not good at using english right now :-)
18:33:06 <chandler> because if you accept "infinite" then all programming languages are concatenative, and the set of atoms is just the set of valid programs in those languages
18:33:12 <chandler> thus it needs to be finite
18:33:26 <warpzero> my language then fails on the fact that its an infinite language?
18:33:48 <slava> in factor, everything is composed of literals, 22 primitive words, and half a dozen or so hard-coded immediate words.
18:34:13 <chandler> warpzero: infinite set of atoms, yes
18:34:19 <warpzero> in af everything is composed of like 16 markup symbols and literals
18:35:31 <chandler> is there some way to reduce the set of literals to a finite set and still express all the programs that can be written in that language?
18:35:46 <chandler> or is my definition missing the essential nature of concatenativeness?
18:36:18 <kc5tja> chandler: Doesn't a Turing machine require only 8 instructions?  Is that what you're talking about?
18:36:29 <warpzero> chandler: the problem with af is it cant even run on a finite machine
18:36:41 <chandler> kc5tja: I guess... I'm trying to pin down a formal definition of concatenativeness
18:36:46 <TheBlueWizard> I guess one definitive characterization of a programming language X as being concatentive is: "How easy is it to yank out a chunk of code from the program without putting a lot of effort on cleaning up the resulting code (yanked out one and the program itself minus the that code)"
18:37:06 <chandler> but perhaps that's impossible...
18:37:22 <kc5tja> chandler: I would write to Billy, since he runs the Concatenative group.
18:37:28 <chandler> aah, OK
18:37:31 <chandler> just thinking out loud :-)
18:37:39 * chandler 's formal nature gets the better of him often
18:37:43 <kc5tja> Google for "concatenative language mailing list", and that should bring you to his contact information.
18:37:44 <warpzero> TheBlueWizard: by that definition then af IS concatentative
18:37:46 <kc5tja> It's a Yahoo! group.
18:37:47 * TheBlueWizard notes that the cleaning up itself could be done by computer itself rather than human
18:37:57 <chandler> kc5tja: I'll google for it, as usual :-)
18:38:22 <kc5tja> Yeah.  I recommended googling because I lost track fo the relavent info.  I know it exists, but it's been something like a year and a half since I participated.
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18:38:54 <TheBlueWizard> hiya proteusguy
18:39:18 <proteusguy> howdy TheBlueWizard dude. :)
18:40:21 <warpzero> sup
18:40:54 <proteusguy> Watching Superbowl and specing out a new computer.
18:40:56 <TheBlueWizard> well, gotta go...bye all
18:41:06 <proteusguy> Nice chatting Blue! :D have a good one.
18:41:33 <TheBlueWizard> proteusguy: bye :)
18:41:44 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth
18:41:53 <warpzero> lol im just trying to figure out if my language is classifiable at all lolllll
19:10:29 <fridge_> yep
19:10:36 <fridge_> its filed under 'unclassifiable'
19:15:48 <kc5tja> OK, I'm falling asleep.
19:15:50 <kc5tja> Nap time for me.
19:25:12 <Sonarman> what does PERFORM do?  i can't find it in the dpans index
19:28:52 <ASau> IIRC, : PERFORM @ EXECUTE ;
19:29:31 <Sonarman> thanks
19:40:23 <OrngeTide> man. i can't believe arnold thinks I'm going to vote for these propositions.
19:41:20 <kc5tja> Prepare to be governated.
19:41:26 * kc5tja is back
19:42:46 <OrngeTide> kc5tja, hehe
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19:56:10 <ASau> Dobroe utro!
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20:34:52 <ASau> How would you call this word:  a b -- a+b b ?
20:35:29 <ASau> swap over + swap
20:36:53 <cleverdra> (+), if I had that as a step in +
20:36:57 <cleverdra> : + (+) drop ;
20:37:46 <ASau> That's not a step in +
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20:38:22 <cleverdra> asau - please read all of what I say.
20:40:28 <ASau> I don't have this in additive context. (+) is not descriptive there. 
20:50:54 <kc5tja> Traditionally, it's been called under+ from what little I've seen it used for.
20:55:02 <cleverdra> under+ ( n1 n2 n3 -- n1+n3 n2 )
20:55:02 <ASau> kc5tja, how *+ is used in multiplication?
20:55:19 --- quit: warpzero ("Tried to warn you about Chino and Daddy Gee, but I can't seem to get to you through the U.S. Mail.")
20:56:34 <kc5tja> ASau: If the least significant bit of b is 1, then it returns (a b -- a+b b).  Otherwise, it returns (a b -- a b).
20:56:58 <kc5tja> So to multiply two numbers, one of them 4-bits wide, then you would use *+ 2/ *+ 2/ *+ 2/ *+ 2/, and the result will be the product.
20:57:14 <kc5tja> (note that shifting the multiplicands into place is necessary as a pre-requisite.)
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21:06:30 <ASau> Does 2/ shifts a pair?
21:06:36 <ASau> shift
21:10:27 <kc5tja> No.  Just the top item.
21:11:40 <ASau> I can't understand how it works.
21:11:54 <I440r> its just a divide by 2
21:12:08 <ASau> : *+ dup 1 and if over + then ;  ( ? )
21:12:17 <ASau> I mean *+
21:12:36 <ASau> How * is defined through *+
21:12:46 <ASau> How does it work.
21:13:33 <I440r> well the above word adds the top two items without losing the second one but ONLY if the top item is odd
21:14:03 <I440r> ive no idea what that would be used for
21:14:15 <ASau> Maybe this definition is wrong.
21:15:08 <ASau> (I can understand how *+ works, how * works. I don't see how *+ is works as part of * )
21:15:08 <I440r> best way to find out is to test it :)
21:15:22 <ASau> Oh, I don't get tests.
21:15:57 <ASau> I don't like test 32x32 or 64x64 multiplications.
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21:17:38 <warpzero> God fucking dammit guys.
21:20:00 <I440r> ?
21:20:51 <kc5tja> ASau: It's just the Russian multiplication method.  :)
21:21:29 <warpzero> I can not figure a way to do this.
21:21:48 <I440r> a way to do what
21:21:56 <warpzero> Like... I have this language right...
21:22:02 <warpzero> And its as verbose as all get-out.
21:22:10 <warpzero> Because it doesn't implement expressions.
21:22:19 <ASau> kc5tja, it definition of *+ above right?
21:22:21 <warpzero> But I can't figure out how to make it less verbose.
21:24:00 <kc5tja> ASau: *+ is equivalent to this Forth code: : *+ dup 1 and if swap over + swap then ;
21:24:41 <warpzero> I440r: Like to add two numbers, you have to instantiate something that adds, and then put two things into it and specify where you want the result.
21:24:55 <I440r> hmm
21:25:04 <warpzero> Adding two constants: $ < # *math.add add1 $ integer x [ 2 *add1 ] [ 3 *add1 ] [ *add1 *x ] >
21:25:11 <I440r> sounds like a nice low level language
21:25:13 <warpzero> in forth that whole thing is 2 3 +
21:25:47 <I440r> hmmm
21:26:52 <ASau> kc5tja, fix http://www.falvotech.com/cgi/fsforth/StackProcessorConcept
21:27:09 <ASau> It says: *+ ( a b -- a b | a a+b )
21:29:12 <kc5tja> Oops.
21:29:14 <kc5tja> I'll fix later.
21:29:17 <kc5tja> Thanks for the notice.
21:30:01 <warpzero> I440r: And I just can't think what to do about it.
21:30:29 <ASau> kc5tja, I've seen the same somewhere else.
21:30:30 <I440r> hmm can you make it possible to define parts of the above in seperate definitions?
21:30:48 <I440r> then YOU could write primatives that users could use
21:30:48 <ASau> kc5tja, it was before your site.
21:30:59 <warpzero> I440r: You mean like macro-ize it?
21:31:01 <ASau> kc5tja, the same mistake.
21:31:06 <I440r> yea
21:31:12 <warpzero> Yeah kinda.
21:31:19 <I440r> thats basically what forth is
21:31:24 <warpzero> Can I pm you?
21:31:36 <I440r> sure you dont even need to ask permission :)
21:43:37 <madgarden> warpzero: Why are you doing it that way, and not the Forth way?
21:44:15 <warpzero> madgarden: Because I'm not re-implementing forth?
21:44:45 <madgarden> OK... I'm just wondering how/why it got so verbose in the first place.
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21:45:20 <warpzero> madgarden: its like that because it doesn't have expressions
21:45:48 <madgarden> So everything's a function.
21:46:07 <warpzero> No.
21:46:12 <warpzero> Nothings a function.
21:46:16 <warpzero> Everything is a thing though.
21:46:51 <kc5tja> ASau: *+ is easy to get confused on its parameter ordering.
21:47:23 <madgarden> The things must have some function.
21:48:28 <madgarden> Anyway... can't you stuff some of it into other new things, to hide the verbosity?
21:53:13 <ASau> kc5tja, I still can't understanf how it works.
21:54:02 <ASau> kc5tja, I've found "1 and if swap over + swap then" pattern in my "*", but no "dup" before it.
21:56:50 <kc5tja> You need the DUP because *+ is a non-destructive add.
21:57:04 <kc5tja> 1 and if will consume the top argument, leaving only 'a' on the stack.
21:57:12 <kc5tja> Hence the DUP.
21:57:41 <kc5tja> To understand how *+ works for multiplication, you need to know how binary multiplication works.
21:57:55 <kc5tja> There are plenty of web pages on the net that describe it.
21:58:08 <ASau> I know, but I have accumulator under all this and restore multiplicand.
21:58:42 <ASau> I've not seen any good description.
21:58:53 <ASau> Any links?
22:01:30 <kc5tja> http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/57054.html
22:01:46 <warpzero> madgarden: no what you are seeing there is the minimum level of verbosity atm
22:03:49 <madgarden> warpzero: Yes, and I'm wondering how you can tuck it away somehow. I mean, in most languages, you'd use a function or something similar. You don't support that?
22:06:06 --- join: Serg (~z@212.34.52.140) joined #forth
22:06:13 <Serg> hi !
22:06:17 <warpzero> madgarden: Thats like the smallest it gets I mean that IS a function, it doesn't get any smaller.
22:06:47 <Serg> hello kc5tja ;))
22:06:53 <I440r> hi serg!
22:07:06 <Serg> on saturday, i bought an old military radio ;)
22:07:09 <Serg> hi I440r
22:07:21 <I440r> cool :)
22:07:39 <Serg> and got my 1st ham contact: IV3OWC on 7060kHz
22:07:57 <Serg> gonna look up what country it is ;)))
22:08:09 <I440r> u are u a ham ?
22:08:19 <kc5tja> I know IT is Italy, but I've never heard of IV before.  I'm sure it exists though.
22:08:31 <Serg> no - i prefer not to disclose my hobby to Big Brother
22:08:40 <I440r> :)
22:08:49 <I440r> he knows already<:P
22:09:00 <Serg> maybe ;(
22:09:35 <Serg> kc5tja: i got it w/ about 1 meter of wire
22:09:38 <madgarden> warpzero: so you're defining a math.add function in that example code?
22:09:51 * kc5tja nods to Serg
22:10:14 * kc5tja tried to set up his antenna again today, but no matter where I put it, people would clothesline themselves on it.
22:10:16 <warpzero> madgarden: nope that code just uses it
22:13:22 <madgarden> kc5tja: The obvious solution is to use your antenna as a clothesline.
22:13:51 <kc5tja> madgarden: No can do.
22:14:08 <kc5tja> My room faces the front yard.
22:14:25 <kc5tja> The last thing I need is to have some kid think he's being cute and steal all my clothes.  :)
22:16:28 <kc5tja> Anyway, I have school tomorrow.
22:16:31 <kc5tja> I need to get to bed.
22:16:36 <madgarden> :)
22:16:54 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK")
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23:09:05 <warpzero> what is the oposit of expansive?
23:17:53 <madgarden> small
23:18:41 <I440r> contractive ???
23:18:47 <I440r> neway definatly sleep time
23:21:52 * Serg wishes to find a goog ham radio IRC chat
23:25:47 <ASau> Serg, have you looked at FIDONet echoes?
23:49:03 --- quit: Nutssh ("Client exiting")
23:55:45 <Serg> ASau: not only read on regular basis, but wrote a multithreaded news client for this ;)))
23:56:17 <Serg> see at http://cryptomancer.chat.ru
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/04.02.01