00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.01.31 00:06:57 --- quit: fridge (Remote closed the connection) 00:07:46 --- join: fridge (~fridge@dsl-203-113-231-28.NSW.netspace.net.au) joined #forth 02:08:34 --- join: qFox (C00K13S@cp12172-a.roose1.nb.home.nl) joined #forth 02:09:45 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK") 02:11:05 --- join: rO| (rO_@pD9EE14AA.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 03:22:37 --- join: Nutssh (~Foo@gh-1029.gh.rice.edu) joined #forth 03:26:36 Herkamire: awake ? 03:26:57 Morning 03:27:18 hoi 03:31:39 Hoe gaat het? 03:31:56 geen reden voor klachten 03:32:23 klachten? 03:32:30 zou kunnen zeggen, naar behoren 03:33:07 Sounds great.. 03:34:08 a klacht is a complaint 03:34:16 Yeah, sounded like that. 03:34:21 "klaga" in Swedish :) 03:34:37 nix grundas for klagas 03:34:55 Heh 03:39:00 "Ingen orsak att klaga" 03:39:51 :) 03:40:12 What language are you speaking? 03:40:34 several at once 03:41:22 dutch english swedish mixup 03:41:45 and a bit bastardized german too 03:42:38 That's Dutch. 03:42:58 not nix, t'is geen there 03:43:15 :) 03:44:20 Heh. Strange combination. some of it looked slightly recognizably german. 03:44:37 that's the dutch part i suppose 03:45:14 But when I saw 'aa' in gaat, I knew it wasn't that. 03:45:43 wasn't german. 04:33:30 Dobryjj den'! 04:34:20 privet 04:35:36 aloha ASau 04:38:36 I'm thinking on two problems. 04:39:07 First one relates meta-compiler or cross compiler. 04:39:24 I want to create words, that: 04:39:46 a) create a dictionary entry; 04:40:14 b) write out its' name to blocks. 04:40:48 It should be like: 04:42:15 : : ( write out comiled code ) ; 04:46:22 The main problem is new ":" overlaps old one. 04:47:02 consider to put new : into an own vocabulary 04:47:44 Yes, of course I _have_ to put it into new vocabulary. 04:48:20 I can't reach old ":" in another case. 04:48:42 (Of course, I can reach, but I don't like such hacking.) 04:49:53 ASau: alias old : before redef 04:49:59 There are two ways: a) stick to ":" ; b) rename to ":" . 04:50:18 Hm. 04:50:49 Maybe the third way: c) redefine ":" at the end of compiler. 04:50:53 asau, or ' : constant xt-of-old-: 04:51:15 xt-of-old-: execute would do then 04:52:56 Speuler, If I use separate vocabulary, I can get it with: FORTH : 04:53:19 right 04:54:02 If I don't overlap FORTH word... :) 04:55:42 Indeed I always try to use separate vocabulary where appropriate. 04:56:36 I don't like: "4321 words total" message when VLIST 04:57:41 ASau: change VLIST to not show it anymore :) 04:58:59 Speuler, it doesn't help, it lists context vocabulary of 4321 words. 04:59:23 : vlist ; 04:59:37 I never use such a wide indefinite context in my speech. 05:08:53 --- quit: Robert ("Bye bye, coax!") 05:18:18 --- join: Robert (~snofs@c-185a71d5.17-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) joined #forth 05:29:12 some bochs users here? 05:29:57 Yes 05:30:13 But please don't ask me things about the debugger. :) 05:30:27 * rO| is trying to get colorforth running on bochs2.1 05:30:51 I haven't got colorforth to run in bochs, or on any real computer 05:31:11 cfg is set to vbe mode, init enables it, then later out of dunno it's disabled back again. 05:31:13 --- part: Speuler left #forth 05:35:11 using VGABIOS-lgpl-latest modified by alex thiel 05:36:00 Robert: did you try it w/ the latest bochs? 05:37:40 this one is supposed to work w/ bochs 2.0.2: http://kristopherjohnson.net/twiki/pub/Main/AlexThiel/bx.c4th.tgz 05:38:10 Hmm.. 05:38:26 I use 2.1.pre3 05:39:05 in alex's pkg there is: .bochsrc 05:39:05 BIOS-bochs-latest 05:39:05 VGABIOS-lgpl-latest 05:39:05 fd.img 05:42:37 is 2.1.pre3 dated 2004/01/09? 05:42:58 No, 2004-01-01 05:43:39 It's the latest version in apt, anyway. 05:47:54 Robert: did you try patch and recompile bochs? 05:48:30 No. 05:48:55 I don't really need to run colorforth in it. :) 05:49:05 And it works for other stuff 05:52:05 rob: I don't really need colorforth too, but who knows, maybe i can learn from it ;-) 05:54:12 Hehe. 05:54:18 I tried enth/flux instead. 05:54:31 It works perfectly on my computers. 05:56:04 did you try pygmy also? 05:56:24 No. 05:56:49 I'm too young for DOS. ;) 06:03:22 ACK too young :P 06:10:42 --- quit: Nutssh ("Client exiting") 06:14:12 --- quit: fridge (Remote closed the connection) 06:52:15 Ha! 06:52:29 Privet 06:52:48 It looks kc5tja has already done this in http://www.falvotech.com/cgi/fsforth/ThereIsNoCrossCompiler 06:54:17 Privet, Robert! 07:26:56 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@216.27.161.121) joined #forth 07:32:09 Dobryjj vecher! 07:32:19 privet 07:32:26 eh 07:32:28 :) 07:59:59 --- quit: Robert ("brb") 08:05:42 --- join: Robert (~snofs@c-185a71d5.17-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) joined #forth 08:17:52 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@66-91-231-74.san.rr.com) joined #forth 08:18:09 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja 09:44:02 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK") 09:50:18 --- join: aktnot (ident@233.80-202-65.nextgentel.com) joined #forth 09:50:19 --- quit: aktnot (Client Quit) 10:08:17 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 10:49:04 --- quit: I440r ("brb") 10:49:11 * warpzero is back (gone 13:23:37) 10:56:19 --- quit: rO| (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 10:56:48 --- join: rO| (rO_@pD9EE1B1B.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 12:10:25 --- join: dubious (~marc@209.71.234.197) joined #forth 13:01:44 * warpzero is away: Sunny day, sweeping the clouds away, on my way to where the air is sweet! Can you tell me how to get, how to get to Sesame Street? 14:18:54 Tuk-tuk! 14:19:04 Alive? 14:21:20 * warpzero is back (gone 01:19:36) 14:21:39 Yea 14:27:14 --- join: I440r_ (~mark4@12-160.lctv-a5.cablelynx.com) joined #forth 14:38:51 dobrij utro, aleksej sau 14:38:59 made this http://www2.uiah.fi/~juliukko/ 14:55:56 --- quit: cmeme (Remote closed the connection) 14:56:21 --- join: cmeme (~cmeme@216.184.11.30.unused.swcp.com) joined #forth 15:04:38 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@216.27.161.121) joined #forth 15:10:01 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@pc3adn1d.ppp.fcc.net) joined #forth 15:10:02 --- mode: ChanServ set +o TheBlueWizard 15:10:29 hiya all 15:11:15 Sup? 15:11:53 moi 15:12:01 cd www 15:12:01 Hi :) 15:14:02 --- quit: cmeme (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 15:14:25 do do do dododdodododod do do dod do dodododo 15:14:43 hiya warpzero 15:14:48 hiya mur 15:15:05 --- join: cmeme (~cmeme@216.184.11.30.unused.swcp.com) joined #forth 15:18:36 TheBlueWizard: How are you today? 15:20:33 doing fine...been reading all this afternoon, then now on Net doing various things 15:21:17 yea 15:21:28 * Robert tries to construct a frequency counter. 15:28:47 * rO| is still chewing debug output to get colorforth running on bochs. 15:28:58 Hehe. 15:29:02 Have fun :) 15:30:12 Robert: haven't met your ironic side ;-) 15:32:08 i still think it's worth to invest some hours 15:33:04 Maybe.. I've done less useful things than that. 15:52:50 someone just told me that we will run out of ipv6 addresses too 15:54:53 then kill that guy...he is a friggin' moron 15:55:15 yeh 15:55:40 there aren't 2^128 bits on the internet for the love of god 15:58:01 --- join: Sonarman (~matt@adsl-64-169-94-63.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 16:20:45 --- quit: rO| ("..") 16:21:17 --- join: rO| (rO_@pD9EE1B1B.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 16:25:00 gotta go...bye all 16:25:06 goodn ight 16:25:09 sleep now 16:25:30 yep...good night to you too :) 16:25:39 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth 16:32:58 --- quit: I440r_ ("brb") 16:37:03 --- quit: Sonarman ("leaving") 16:53:01 --- join: I440r (~mark4@12-160.lctv-a5.cablelynx.com) joined #forth 16:53:44 ha! fixed my acpi 16:54:54 --- join: Nutssh (~Foo@gh-1029.gh.rice.edu) joined #forth 17:21:43 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 17:26:23 --- quit: rO| ("recreation") 17:27:09 ha! r u srs? 17:27:59 --- quit: qFox ("if at first you dont succeed, quit again") 17:33:10 --- join: fridge (~fridge@dsl-203-33-163-3.NSW.netspace.net.au) joined #forth 17:35:00 --- join: downix (~downix@adsl-219-34-197.mia.bellsouth.net) joined #forth 17:44:50 --- quit: dubious ("Leaving") 17:45:12 --- join: cr3 (~marc@209.71.234.197) joined #forth 17:45:49 hm, wonder if there's a "froth" named interpreter out there. that'd be a cute name. 17:46:12 heh 17:49:45 OO question: if I have an aggregation of objects sharing the same base class, how can I have a foreach method which will call some function pointer on each object while: 1. being able to run object specific routines, and 2. not breaking encapsulation of each object. 17:52:22 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@66-91-231-74.san.rr.com) joined #forth 17:52:27 hey Sam 17:52:31 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja 17:52:47 re 17:53:02 * kc5tja has a meeting later tonight with my client, so i'll probably end up afk at any moment. 17:53:09 I'm just waiting for a call back from him. 17:53:28 It'll probably be a three or four hour meeting too. 17:53:53 good to hear 17:54:02 kc5: client? your company? 17:54:08 Yep. 17:54:11 * downix is debating a contract he's been offered 17:54:18 * kc5tja does freelance software development for people sometimes. 17:54:29 kc5: cool, what kind of software development? 17:54:37 cr3: http://www.falvotech.com -- the site is a few months out of date, but the relavent details are there. 17:55:15 cr3: I do embedded Linux or desktop Linux software development for x86 platform primarily, other platforms if adequate hardware is provided or loaned to me. 17:55:30 I will of course also do Forth development, Oberon development, etc. 17:55:36 *nods* 17:55:50 * kc5tja is also somewhat fluent with implementing custom operating systems too, if need be. 17:55:54 oberon? wow 17:56:15 Oberon's fun 17:56:26 * downix is trying to code a simulator for his hardware atm 17:56:33 kc5: for the linux desktop? what kind of software would that be? 17:56:44 cr3: What do you want? :) 17:57:01 kc5: I'm more curious to know what others have wanted enough to pay for ;) 17:57:06 I haven't had anyone order a desktop application yet. But when someone does, I'll be happy to write it, provided the income I make helps pay bills. 17:57:59 cr3: Even if someone did ask for a desktop application, I may not always be able to tell. I never said I write open source software. If the client wants the software open source, that's his decision, not mine. 17:58:01 a forth with an oberon-like UI would be neat 17:58:36 I've always wondered how to make a UI in Forth 17:58:57 Same way you do in C, or other languages. 17:59:23 But in Forth, the language is intertwined with the OS (ideally, at least), which means the UI itself may change from app to app to app. 17:59:45 well there is quite a bit of variety between language to language about how a UI system works 17:59:50 so it's not really the "same" way 17:59:52 Usually I'd call a graphics library. I'm looking at doing it for OF, so no graphics library to call unless someone can point me to where I'd find the OF driver for the vid card. 18:00:00 Mops has an interesting object-oriented model 18:00:24 i think mops syntax is like this, right? object [ words invoked on the object ] 18:01:45 chandler: Despite *all* the differences between all the languages, they all implement a GUI in more or less the same way. 18:01:53 There are very few exceptions. 18:02:12 Oberon being the largest exception I know of. 18:03:55 are you speaking of implementation or API? 18:05:57 A little bit of both, since they're closely related. 18:06:25 are you familiar with CLIM and presentation-based user interfaces? 18:06:35 GEM and Intuition are the only other two exceptions i know of. 18:06:50 chandler: Never heard of CLIM before in my life. 18:08:10 Common Lisp Interface Manager, the standardized version of the Symbolics Dynamic Windows system 18:08:14 Reading up on it from the cliki, however, leads me to believe that it's more or less the same basic idea as X11, where widgets compose (e.g., a widget can itself consist of other widgets), and that's the basis for forming the UI, 18:08:35 hm, if that's the perspective you're taking I guess they really are all the same :-) 18:08:43 Well, yes. 18:08:52 Windows works the same basic way. X11 does. MacOS does. 18:09:28 * cleverdra mumbles something about Photon and wanting to try QNX. 18:09:46 QNX is good 18:09:55 Photon is an awesome model, actually. 18:10:02 I had forgotten about Photon. 18:10:04 you know all these computers really are the same... digital, binary, memory, CPU... 18:10:13 chandler: Yes, they are. 18:10:15 I don't see your point. 18:10:16 I love Photon 18:11:12 kc5tja: I didn't know you were looking at such a basic level, that's all. Most of what I see as the "interesting" differences in modern windowing systems is not in the raw fundamentals like that, I think 18:11:47 nevermind :-) 18:11:50 Ahh 18:13:43 However, I'm still a bit confused by what you mean by presentation-based interfaces. Can you explain that a bit? 18:13:57 kc5 - did you look at all into K's GUI system? 18:14:28 the basic model of a CLIM app is that "presentations" are assigned to objects, which define how the object looks on screen and what commands are defined on it 18:14:31 I couldn't follow their example source code, and to follow their examples at all, you have to follow the source. 18:14:58 the specification of the presentation is theoretically output model independent, so in fact many CLIM examples will also present to HTML or PostScript 18:15:12 chandler: So CLIM employs the document-view design pattern extensively then. 18:15:50 I guess... CLIM like CL predates named "design patterns" :-) 18:16:09 most (but not all) CLIM apps also have their own command interaction pane 18:16:18 where you type out commands, and use the mouse to select arguments 18:21:32 Well, the concept of design patterns predates the popularization of design patterns too. :) 18:21:46 Anyway, I gotta go. 18:21:54 Just got the phone call I needed, and I'll be demoing my software-to-date 18:21:59 * kc5tja loves extreme programming. 18:22:00 coool 18:22:13 heh, another lisp concept before there was a name for it 18:22:26 and lispites / forthites are still far more extreme than most 18:22:57 Yeah, but most Forthites abhore the notion of testing *first*. 18:23:01 Anyway, I'm out. 18:23:17 owing to lack of edit - compile - link - run - run in debugger - run in debugger - autopsy - ... cycle 18:23:33 "test first" is a concept that arose because of lack of incrimental testing 18:23:43 you don't need it in forth; you just test your words as you write them 18:24:03 when you push the granularity to the maximum extreme programming turns into lisp and forth :-) 18:25:58 Not quite true. 18:26:25 XP's test-first requires that unit tests exist as separate fragments of code which are routinely run to ensure progress, not regress, of a project's software. 18:26:39 The test-after philosophy supports "test it, and if it works, just assume it works." 18:26:51 There's no fixed "code trail" that is persistent to make sure it works. 18:26:54 Hard to explain. 18:27:01 Read Beck's work about test-driven development. 18:27:02 one of my goals for factor is to make it easy to write correct code. this includes a unit testing framework, stack effect checking, and so on. 18:27:20 Crap, I can't find my dress shirt... >:( 18:27:39 indeed do any forths have facilities that automatically determine a stack effect for a piece of code? 18:27:54 slava - StrongForth, possibly. 18:27:57 No. Not yet, at least. 18:28:03 But it isn't impossible. 18:28:08 its very easy in fact. 18:28:13 Applying data flow inferencing is pretty easy to do in Forth. 18:28:29 also i want to add some primitive type checking to the compiler to catch obviously incorrect code. 18:28:37 like : foo 1 car ; 18:28:59 or more subtle, : dup car swap dup * ; -- trying to use same 1 value as a cons cell and number 18:29:21 also i figured out something incredibly cool 18:29:37 OK, found shirt, found keys, found cellphone. This time I'm out...for real. 18:29:42 recall that factor has a word 'call' which calls a code quotation; its sort of like EXECUTE. so you can write a word like this: 18:29:50 : dip swap >r call r> ; 18:29:57 and then [ foo bar ] dip == >r foo bar r> 18:30:18 --- quit: Robert (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 18:30:28 and indeed, the cool trick i figured out is making the compiler produce equivalent code for [ foo bar ] dip and >r foo bar r> 18:30:45 this may seem trivial, but more complicated words are possible; eg there is a word 'cleave' 18:30:52 X [ Y ] [ Z ] cleave 18:31:00 evalutes Y with X at the top of the stack, and Z with X at the top of the stack 18:31:27 words like these minimize pointless stack noise, and now that they're compiled efficiently, its very neat. 18:38:38 does any of this make sense? :) 18:53:33 --- join: I440r (~mark4@12-160.lctv-a5.cablelynx.com) joined #forth 18:53:52 well the hard drive to my laptop just went totally belly up and thats where the lastes version of isforth was 18:54:20 ive got it on my server too but thers are things that arent on the server :( 18:55:06 im hoping they are on one of my external usb drives but until i build the kernel over here ill never know because i cant read them 18:55:10 fuck 18:55:10 fuck 18:55:11 fuck 18:55:11 fuck 18:55:11 fuck\ 18:59:28 no thanks; you're not my type 19:00:25 I440r, :( 19:11:56 i think im gona be able to read it all off, i let the drive sit for a while and its booted 19:12:03 and im copyiung things off... 19:12:05 cross fingers 19:18:46 i THINK i got it all off! 19:19:06 i gotta go look at all the files to see tht ive not just copied off random data 19:45:59 --- quit: Nutssh ("Client exiting") 19:50:18 --- join: chandlerG5 (~chandler@d-84-77.dhcp-149-159.indiana.edu) joined #forth 19:50:59 --- quit: chandler (Nick collision from services.) 19:51:11 --- join: chandler (chandler@64-145-60-36.client.dsl.net) joined #forth 19:52:52 --- quit: chandlerG5 (Client Quit) 20:00:26 --- 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20:59:29 --- topic: 'A channel dedicated to the Forth programming language, its implementation, its application, and its philosophy.' 20:59:29 --- topic: set by kc5tja on [Fri Dec 12 07:57:32 2003] 20:59:29 --- names: list (clog_ madgarden OrngeTide arke ooo_ TreyB skylan mur ianp ASau CrewdenX clog cleverdra fridge I440r chandler Nutssh @ChanServ) 20:59:31 --- join: cleverdr1 (irc@206.61.132.99) joined #forth 20:59:34 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@216.27.161.121) joined #forth 20:59:39 --- join: fridge_ (~fridge@dsl-203-33-163-3.NSW.netspace.net.au) joined #forth 21:02:21 --- quit: OrngeTide (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 21:02:21 --- quit: fridge (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 21:02:21 --- quit: ChanServ (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 21:02:21 --- quit: mur (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 21:02:22 --- quit: Nutssh (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 21:02:22 --- quit: clog (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 21:02:22 --- quit: cleverdra 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ChanServ 22:05:57 Back 22:06:14 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja 22:07:25 --- join: cmeme (~cmeme@216.184.11.30.unused.swcp.com) joined #forth 22:08:19 Well, 3 hours in the meeting. It was productive, and product development is going good. 22:08:28 Hopefully will be paid next week for this week's work. 22:09:20 I hope tomorrow's INO work goes better than todays, that's for sure. >:/ 23:33:15 --- quit: Nutssh (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 23:49:00 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK") 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/04.01.31