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09:34:13 <proteusguy> kc5tja: how do you do akido without the "stick"? I guess I'm more ignorant of that martial art than I thought.
09:35:33 <Herkamire> proteusguy: in aikido classes you usually train against punches, grabs, and people swinging at your head
09:36:41 <proteusguy> So do you attack back (unarmed) or are all attacks via the sword?
09:37:05 <Herkamire> we rarely train with any weapons
09:37:25 <kc5tja> proteusguy: Weapon forms reinforce the hand-art forms.
09:37:31 <Herkamire> although many movements are vary similar to those in sword, so sometimes we practice with swords
09:37:32 <kc5tja> proteusguy: They are not a replacement for the hand-art.
09:37:41 <kc5tja> No, we do not counter-attack in any way.
09:37:44 <kc5tja> We let the attack come.
09:38:05 <kc5tja> We merely get out of teh way, then either redirect the attacker's motion or gently push him along in the direction he was going.
09:38:13 <kc5tja> And lo and behold, the attacker falls or is thrown.  :D
09:38:23 <kc5tja> It sounds easy, and the basic principles are *trivial.*
09:38:36 <kc5tja> However I've been training for 3 years now, and I'm VERY far from being a master.  :)
09:39:00 <kc5tja> Herkamire: That's because the hand art is derived from sword techniques.
09:40:48 <Herkamire> or sometimes we pin people to the ground
09:41:47 <kc5tja> Yes, I'd forgotten about that.
09:42:56 <proteusguy> I think I may be confusing which martial art I'm thinking of. Is aikido not the one with the wooden sticks and full face masks and armour?
09:43:15 <kc5tja> No.
09:43:23 <kc5tja> That's kendo or kenjutsu.
09:43:42 <proteusguy> kendo!! geez! of course.
09:43:49 <proteusguy> Dunno what I was thinking....
09:43:51 <kc5tja> (those wooden sticks are called Bokken, BTW, and are not normal sticks.  They are shaped like katana, and have similar balance characteristics.)
09:44:19 <kc5tja> There is some kendo influence in aikido though.  Mostly other arts though, but some kendo is there.
09:44:38 <proteusguy> Yes - they are to simulate the Japanese sword fighting as accurately as possible without lopping heads.
09:46:57 <proteusguy> So Aikido sounds very much like Tai Chi Chuan, which I used to do.
09:47:13 <kc5tja> Ai Ki and Tai Chi refer to the same concepts.  :)
09:47:22 <kc5tja> (though neither the Chinese nor Japanese will admit it)
09:47:28 <proteusguy> haha
09:47:53 <kc5tja> There are some fundamental differences between aikido and Tai Chi, but overall, the same *basic* tenets are there for both of them.
09:49:05 <proteusguy> Interesting. I really loved Tai Chi. Hard to find a good instructor that knows it as a martial art, however. Most are holistic healing types who only ever do the slow form stuff.
09:49:23 * kc5tja nods
09:50:21 <proteusguy> Unfortunately my schedule and the school's distant location make it impossible for me to continue. Now I've forgotten most everything. Definitely something you gotta practice.
09:50:40 <kc5tja> Same with Aikido.
09:50:55 <kc5tja> I've forgotten much since starting school, but it's starting to come back to me.
09:50:58 <kc5tja> How long have you been training?
09:52:08 <proteusguy> Was about a year. Not long. But its very good at teaching you how to position your body. Learn a lot about human physiology. Subtle stance changes that provide tremendous leverage.
09:52:32 <kc5tja> Yeah, after three years, I'm still at that stage.  :D
09:52:51 <kc5tja> But I can roll and fall pretty good.
09:53:07 <kc5tja> Yesterday, I was literally *thrown* (yes, as in not at all touching the ground during flight!) about the mat.
09:53:12 <kc5tja> Not even a bruise on me.  :D
09:53:41 <proteusguy> I dunno about Aikido, but I imagines its the same as Tai Chi in that, when you finally "get" something - you can feel that you're doing it correctly. That was pretty cool. I knew my teacher was good after about two or three of those experiences.
09:54:08 <proteusguy> ha ha sounds like fun. :D
09:54:30 <kc5tja> Yeah, I was working with a nidan (second degree blackbelt), and he knew I could take it.
09:54:36 <kc5tja> And yes, we were just having fun.  :)
09:54:42 <kc5tja> I just wish I could reciprocate and throw him like that.  :)
09:54:55 <proteusguy> haha one day grasshopper. ;)
09:55:03 * kc5tja doesn't have the stance, spacing, sense of timing, or general knowledge of the technique we were practicing to do that though.
09:55:54 <proteusguy> we didn't do any actual throwing - just moving off balance and pushing away.
09:56:12 <kc5tja> That's considered basic in aikido.
09:56:27 <kc5tja> Throwing usually doesn't involve flinging people like rubber bands across the room.  :)
09:57:02 <kc5tja> What he was doing was certainly very, very advanced.  :)
09:57:18 <kc5tja> Hence my comment yesterday about taking falls that were WELL above my rank to take.  :)
09:57:28 <proteusguy> Tai Chi has turned that basic aspect into a huge part of the art. "Push Hands" as its called is something that even the masters concentrate on.
09:57:45 <proteusguy> Yes I gathered that from your comments last night.
09:58:15 <kc5tja> You talk to any 9-dan Aikido shihan, and the first thing they concentrate in any seminar, in any class, even as soon as they wake up: Kihon-waza (basic technique).
09:58:19 <kc5tja> It's *all* in the basics.
09:58:36 <proteusguy> indeed
09:58:57 <kc5tja> I used to not like my current instructor as much as my previous one because basics is all he'd do.
09:59:03 <kc5tja> (He has a large class of very basic students too).
09:59:09 <proteusguy> Well I'll have to keep an eye out for good Aikiko instructors as an alternative to Tai Chi if I cannot find that.
09:59:21 <kc5tja> Now I'm starting to appreciate it a bit more.
10:00:36 <proteusguy> Having a good teacher is critical. Otherwise you're wasting your time.
10:00:43 <kc5tja> Yep
10:00:57 <kc5tja> My former instructor is often considered to be one fo the best in Southern California.
10:01:08 <kc5tja> He is one of four people on the AAA west-coast teaching committee.
10:01:22 <kc5tja> My current instructor is ALSO on the AAA west-coast teaching committee.  :)
10:01:30 <kc5tja> But his teaching style is very different
10:07:30 <proteusguy> Do they have "belts" in aikido? If so, what are you presently?
10:07:49 <kc5tja> Yes, we have belts, but the colors are meaningless -- they differ from school to school.
10:08:04 <kc5tja> I currently hold the rank of 4 kyu.
10:08:30 <kc5tja> I hope to be testing for 3 kyu shortly, but then every time I get close, I would have to do something that takes me out of training. >:(
10:08:54 <kc5tja> And I do need my bokken so I can train at home for 3 kyu, as I need to demonstrate a weapon form.
10:10:00 <proteusguy> So when you begin - what is the first kyu you can attain?
10:10:12 <kc5tja> Depends again on the school.
10:10:17 <kc5tja> The AAA starts out at 7 kyu.
10:10:23 <kc5tja> Some schools start at 9.
10:10:26 <kc5tja> Others at 6.
10:11:01 <proteusguy> ok - so you are considered an intermediate level student now? Nearly reaching an advanced stage?
10:11:10 <kc5tja> Yes
10:11:26 <kc5tja> At 3 kyu, I am eligible to start attending (and in some cases, even required to) *instructors* seminars.
10:11:31 <proteusguy> how long you been doing this - actual time as student, not calendar tiem.
10:11:31 <kc5tja> (e.g., seminars for instructors)
10:11:47 <kc5tja> About 2.75 years of man-time put in.
10:12:06 <kc5tja> you don't rank very fast in Aikido.  :)
10:12:09 <proteusguy> Sounds pretty good.
10:12:19 <proteusguy> Makes sense.
10:12:33 <kc5tja> It'll be another 3 years before I get shodan (1 dan, 1st degree black-belt).
10:12:46 <kc5tja> And that's assuming perfect attendance.
10:13:50 <proteusguy> Well - I always say its a matter of direction rather than destination. As long as you're progressing its going well.
10:14:07 * kc5tja nods
10:15:06 <proteusguy> I'm about to move to a little island. Will be interesting to see what - if any - kind of instruction is to be found.
10:15:33 <kc5tja> Even if you can't find instruction professionally, you should be able to at least form a club.
10:15:38 <proteusguy> But I will have a lot more free time to actually train if I find something.
10:16:02 <kc5tja> Tell the students in the club, "Hey, I'm no instructor, but if I don't practice, I will forget everything I know.  So let's practice together and refine the art until a good instructor comes along."
10:16:09 <kc5tja> And make sure you attend the occasional seminar too.
10:16:09 <kc5tja>  :)
10:16:34 <proteusguy> If its anything like Tai Chi - its impossible to learn from a book. Really gotta have a strong instructor.
10:16:48 <kc5tja> I'm not saying you learn from a book.
10:16:52 <kc5tja> When I said a club, I meant a club.  :)
10:17:18 <kc5tja> Someone is bound to have at least the level of instruction you have, if not higher.  It might take some time to find him/her, but I'm sure someone will have it.
10:17:30 <proteusguy> I think I'm not nearly far enough along to make this a useful excersize.
10:17:46 * kc5tja nods
10:18:04 <kc5tja> Just a consideration.
10:18:07 <proteusguy> We'll see. Only about 140,000 people on the whole island. 
10:19:16 <kc5tja> proteusguy: Where are you living now, versus where you are planning on living?
10:19:37 <proteusguy> Living in Atlanta, GA now. Moving to Curacao.
10:27:12 <kc5tja> Not sure where Curacao is.  :)
10:27:23 <kc5tja> But it sounds cool nonetheless.  :)
10:30:40 <proteusguy> 35 miles N of Venezuela. Just east of Aruba. Pretty nice. Owned by the Netherlands so official language is Dutch but English and Spanish are common as well as the local language, Papiamento [sp?] which is a mix of Dutch,Spanish, and English.
10:35:39 <kc5tja> cool.  :)
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10:39:33 <chrchr> Are there any free Forths for PalmOS?
10:51:00 <chandler> dragonforth
10:51:17 <chandler> and if you don't want to use the .prc compiler, quartus
10:58:16 <Herkamire> ppforth is free
10:58:46 <Herkamire> I think it doesn't work on recent versions of palmos though
11:05:10 <chrchr> Okay. Thanks.
11:07:28 <Herkamire> make sure you get the newer version. it's lower on the page
11:14:07 <chrchr> I'm looking for a calculator + basic programming thing for Palm. Forth might be just the ticket, but I'm a bit intimidated by the floating point oddities.
11:15:14 <Herkamire> does ppforth do floating point?
11:17:35 <Herkamire> looks like it does
11:18:14 <chandler> http://www.calerga.com/products/LyME/
11:18:21 <chandler> that's a matlab-like language for the palm
11:18:32 <chrchr> Herkamire: Yes, but Forth in general doesn't do floating point the way a calculator, like dc for instance, does. 1230.99 10 / . doesn't do what you think it would.
11:19:12 <chrchr> chandler: That looks interesting.
11:19:15 <chandler> but in general I just use a basic RPN on my palm and use a HP48GX for the more complicated stuff :-)
11:19:19 <Herkamire> forth doesn't have dynamic typing
11:19:31 <chandler> s/dynamic//
11:19:34 <chandler> :-)
11:19:40 <Herkamire> :)
11:19:58 <chrchr> Herkamire: Yep.
11:20:18 <chrchr> Herkamire: How would would it be to add a dynamic-like numeric type to Forth and map the standard numeric operaters to it?
11:20:24 <Herkamire> I haven't done any fp stuff in forth
11:21:08 <chrchr> Herkamire: Okay.
11:21:17 <Herkamire> chrchr: moderately difficult
11:21:49 <Herkamire> you'd have to know the internals of the forth
11:21:55 <chrchr> Herkamire: Right.
11:22:17 <Herkamire> slava has dynamic typing in his forth-like language Factor
11:22:22 <Herkamire> not for pp though
11:22:40 <chandler> holy crap! http://power48.mobilevoodoo.com/
11:22:55 <chrchr> Herkamire: Joy does it too.
11:23:15 <chrchr> Herkamire: Stacks are attractive for a simple Palm calculator because you don't have to type variable names as much.
11:24:14 <Herkamire> yeah
11:24:35 <chandler> this looks a bit more reasoanble: http://www.freewarepalm.com/calculator/coconutfreeedition.shtml
11:25:17 <chrchr> chandler: Yeah. Maybe.
11:25:53 <chrchr> Well, thanks for you help, fellows. You've given me some things to consider.
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11:26:59 <chandler> crap crap. I need a memory stick and a reader for this...
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12:01:01 <ASau> Dobryjj vecher!
12:08:51 <mur> privet
12:10:38 <ASau> Privet, mur!
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16:04:40 <Herkamire> ld ... cannot find -lX11
16:06:39 <Herkamire> is there something wrong with "gcc -lX11"  ?
16:12:37 <fridge> not unless your ld paths are bung
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17:39:03 <OrngeTide> Herkamire, normally the library paths are wrong (like on every linux distro i've used).
17:40:09 <OrngeTide> Herkamire, -L/usr/X11/lib/ in there is good. or edit a file that is somewhere like /usr/lib/gcc-lib/i686-pc-linux-gnu/3.3.1/specs and stuff it in there
17:40:45 <I440r> its /usr/X11R6/lib isnt it ?
17:41:41 <OrngeTide> I440r, yes. but oddly X11R6 doesn't always exist.
17:41:49 <OrngeTide> sometimes it's X11R6.4 or whatever
17:42:45 <OrngeTide> every standard distro has X11R6. but if you roll your own i believe XFree86 install scripts stuff it in some odd location like that
17:43:06 <OrngeTide> but they make symbolic link for you
17:44:51 <arke> hiya all
17:44:55 <Robert> Hello
17:45:27 <arke> Robert: how are you my friend?
17:45:53 <Robert> School starts in seven hours.
17:46:00 <Robert> And I can't sleep...
17:46:18 <arke> heh
17:46:26 <arke> I've had finals, and I got another one tomorrow
17:46:32 <arke> but then the next semester will start, yay
17:46:43 <Robert> :)
17:46:44 <arke> this semester sucked massive huge hairy ...... you know.
17:47:07 <Robert> ...Forth?
17:47:24 <arke> ?
17:47:30 <Robert> Nevermind.
17:47:47 <arke> Ok.
17:47:59 <OrngeTide> man. this public domain forth for palm has disappeared off the face of the planet. :(
17:48:29 <OrngeTide> oh. nevermind. i found it. I just got the name wrong.
17:48:30 <arke> I need to install SuSE so I can continue on Frapiar, but.... I don't want to leave teh internet while it works :P
17:48:38 <OrngeTide> "public domain forth" in google found it. first link. ahah
17:49:01 <Robert> Frapiar?
17:49:05 <OrngeTide> arke, are you using windows right now?
17:49:20 <arke> Well, yes, but my irssi session is remot4e
17:49:29 <arke> on a friend's gentoo box
17:49:33 <OrngeTide> arke, http://www.colinux.org/ .. you could install linux and run it under windows. :)
17:49:54 <OrngeTide> ot
17:49:56 <OrngeTide> oops.
17:50:08 <arke> Robert: Yes, Frapiar is my Epiar branch/rewrite because Epiar is pissing me off.
17:50:16 <arke> btw, anybody seen tathi lately?
17:50:20 <OrngeTide> it's basically a windows driver to share ring0 with linux
17:50:21 * Robert doesn't even want to think about how much memory and processor power that would require!
17:50:35 <Robert> I have too little of it as it is. :)
17:50:43 <OrngeTide> Robert, oh i have gigs of ram
17:50:49 <Robert> arke: And what is Epiar?
17:50:52 <Robert> OrngeTide: 64MB.
17:51:03 <OrngeTide> Robert, wow. my 486 firewall has 64mb ram..
17:51:13 <arke> Robert: epiar.net ^_^^_^
17:51:25 <arke> OrngeTide: heehee
17:51:59 <OrngeTide> Robert, I have a gig of ECC PC133 sitting here on my desk because the system that I had it in died and i replaced the mobo with one that can't take PC133 (uses DDR).
17:52:35 <OrngeTide> but it's really old RAM. I bought them when the price was way down and my salary was way up.
17:52:48 <Robert> Hehe. :)
17:52:59 <OrngeTide> the prices are down as low now, but my salary isn't up nearly as high. eheh
17:53:04 <Robert> I shouldn't complain.
17:53:36 <arke> :)
17:53:43 <OrngeTide> I ran linux on 16mb for a long time. if you don't pick a high bitdepth (1bpp is what I prefer) X11 is quite usable
17:53:49 <arke> I have an AMD 1.2gig w/512MB ram
17:54:00 <arke> 1bpp? lol
17:54:03 <Robert> OrngeTide: Hehe, neat.
17:54:05 <OrngeTide> 1bpp rocks.
17:54:05 <arke> er
17:54:16 <arke> bits or bytes? :)
17:54:19 <OrngeTide> bits
17:54:23 <OrngeTide> monochrome:)
17:54:26 <arke> heh :)
17:54:30 <arke> Yay
17:54:40 <Robert> Then I would use the console instead.
17:54:47 <OrngeTide> 4bpp is okay if you really need some color xterms
17:54:49 <Robert> X is for viewing images.
17:54:50 <arke> Get a MacOS window manager, run X in mono, and you got a Unix'ed Mac SE :)
17:55:10 <arke> X is for Kate
17:55:11 <arke> :)
17:55:14 <arke> I love Kate
17:55:19 <Robert> Maybe I should try to sleep, as I have to get up in 6 hours.
17:55:22 <arke> I want a girlfriend named Kate
17:55:24 <OrngeTide> Robert, X is for multiplexing the console in an alternate way.
17:55:35 <arke> that way, when I jack off, I can think of the girl and the editor at the same time.
17:55:39 <arke> without feeling bad about it.
17:55:53 <OrngeTide> arke, i'm actually working on a side project to bring Mac OS System 7 Finder to X11.
17:55:58 <arke> X is teh slow :)
17:56:03 <Robert> Snow storm out here, yay. And arke, you're sick.
17:56:03 <arke> OrngeTide: sw33t!
17:56:08 <Robert> Good night
17:56:09 <arke> OrngeTide: whatcha using?
17:56:19 <arke> Robert: I WANT SNOWSTORM!! :(
17:56:21 <OrngeTide> really MacOS X has a terrible UI. and X11 has like a billion UIs and very from terrible to mediocre.
17:56:30 <OrngeTide> arke, XawPlus
17:56:30 <arke> OrngeTide: as in, language + lib
17:56:39 <arke> MacOS was pretty, I think.
17:56:44 <arke> well, not pretty, but nice
17:56:47 <OrngeTide> http://www.orangetide.com/chic/
17:57:12 <OrngeTide> arke, it was clean looking and had a very shallow learning curve.
17:57:55 <arke> I liked it when I had an Mac SE like 7 years ago :P
17:57:57 <OrngeTide> hopefully with some tricks I can get a majority of the Xaw apps to behave in a MacOS-like way. so I won't have to rewrite a lot of basic stuff
17:58:05 <arke> OrngeTide: ObjC? COUNT ME IN! :) I love objc
17:58:34 <OrngeTide> arke, yea. it's all C for now. though.
17:58:50 <arke> :(
17:58:56 <OrngeTide> mostly because I found XawPlus and really started liking it.
17:59:12 <OrngeTide> arke, well ObjC and C are far more compatible with one another than C and C++. 
17:59:40 <OrngeTide> arke, mostly the widget layout should be handled by some kind of resource file anyways. and then we can just use C or ObjC for handling events.
18:00:04 <OrngeTide> arke, C++ will purposefully be unsupported. :)
18:00:38 <arke> yay! :)
18:00:45 <arke> I don't like C++.
18:00:52 <arke> Its typing is way fux0red
18:00:52 <Herkamire> OrngeTide: thanks for the -L option. I figured it out eventually
18:00:57 <OrngeTide> the other thing that is nice about xaw. is has a nice license (mit/bsd/x11). where as things like GTK+ have ugly GPL and QT has the even worse QT license.
18:01:14 * arke knows nothing about xaw .... link?
18:01:20 <OrngeTide> arke, nobody has proven to me what C++ improves in C. so i'm not going to bother
18:01:38 <OrngeTide> arke, run 'xcalc' .. that's an example of stock Xaw. (athena widgets)
18:02:23 * arke reminds OrngeTide of his current OS
18:02:27 <Herkamire> xcalc is hideous. especially in ion :)
18:02:27 <arke> maybe I should get cygwin.
18:02:33 <arke> ion sucks.
18:02:36 <OrngeTide> arke, xfontsel .. xman .. xmh .. all xaw apps. stock xaw is really nasty and terrible of a UI.
18:02:37 <arke> I don't like Ion.
18:02:48 <arke> xman!?
18:02:49 <OrngeTide> the scrollbars are really bad. one button scrolls up. one scrolls down.
18:02:51 <arke> UUGH~!!
18:02:57 <arke> xaw is teh ugly
18:03:09 <Herkamire> OrngeTide: yeah, those really suck with a one button mouse
18:03:13 <arke> use GNUStep :)
18:03:31 <slava> hi folks
18:03:32 <OrngeTide> arke, but there are replacements like nextXaw and Xaw3D and XawPlus. which makes it look more like a normal window manager and fixes a lot of the weird UI
18:03:40 <OrngeTide> Herkamire, yea. i have an ibook. 
18:03:46 <OrngeTide> so i know the pain of using X11 with 1 button
18:03:57 <OrngeTide> arke, there isn't anything in GNUStep.
18:03:58 <zardon> its not that bad
18:04:14 <Herkamire> OrngeTide: you running linux on it?
18:04:15 <OrngeTide> zardon, makes my hand hurt reaching for ctrl and alt
18:04:26 <zardon> yeah, but how often do you need to?
18:05:00 <OrngeTide> Herkamire, I was running gentoo on it for a while. but I decided I wanted to get Jaguar a shot so I had to wipe it. (I made 1 partition for linux before, and gnu parted apparently doesn't work on big endian formatted ext2fs partitions)
18:05:10 --- join: blockhead (default@dialin-1011-tnt.nyc.bestweb.net) joined #forth
18:05:24 <OrngeTide> zardon, in X11 you need to use the right button more than you need the left one
18:05:40 <OrngeTide> and the middle one gets used about 15% of the time too. especially if you're in Xaw
18:05:55 <slava> Herkamire, you around?
18:06:12 <zardon> im not a huge user of X11, just OO and DDD
18:06:15 <zardon> mostly
18:06:18 <OrngeTide> OO?
18:06:19 <Herkamire> here
18:06:23 <zardon> open office
18:06:24 <slava> Herkamire, actually, it won't be hard to get factor to work on palm pilot; the dependencies on the java libraries are minimal
18:06:29 <OrngeTide> zardon, i use troff
18:06:42 <zardon> heh
18:06:56 <slava> Herkamire, all you really need is java.io, and various java.lang.String methods. I'm not sure if the palm pilot java (j2me) has these though, and in what form.
18:07:16 <OrngeTide> zardon, i don't believe in WYSIWYG document systems.
18:07:53 <zardon> i don't like it either
18:07:58 <OrngeTide> word perfect for DOS is still one of my favorites. even though every function key could do like 4 different things
18:08:10 <zardon> word processors suck
18:08:12 <OrngeTide> zardon, LyX is pretty good. if you don't mind LaTeX
18:08:26 <zardon> i don't do alot of formatted documents
18:08:27 <OrngeTide> troff is really geared towards programmers who need to write documents.
18:08:30 <zardon> editor for me
18:08:38 <Herkamire> slava: palm pilot has a java implementation?
18:09:03 <OrngeTide> zardon, I do a formatted document for every project. I wish groff would output better HTML though. then I wouldn't use HTML at all.
18:09:30 <OrngeTide> Herkamire, yea. i hear it's pretty fast. it's very stripped down. kinda like java on cellphones is
18:10:38 <zardon> and why are you focusing on OS 7, what was so wrong with OS 8-9 ?
18:12:50 <OrngeTide> zardon, System 7 was the last major change to the UI. 
18:17:14 <OrngeTide> zardon, honestly if you used it you couldn't really tell if it was from OS 7-9. since they are all almost identical.
18:17:14 <zardon> yeah, but you don't like Platnium?
18:17:14 <OrngeTide> zardon, not really
18:17:14 <OrngeTide> zardon, it doesn't actually do anything.
18:17:14 <OrngeTide> it's just eye candy to sell macs.
18:17:14 <zardon> i thought that was Aqua
18:17:14 <OrngeTide> aqua is even less about UI and more about selling macs.
18:17:14 <OrngeTide> you know what the stupidest thing in aqua is? dialog boxes. they pull down from the bottom of the window and you cannot move them.
18:17:14 <OrngeTide> the whole point of having windows was if some window was covering up something you needed to see you could just move it out of the way.
18:17:14 <OrngeTide> aqua is a step backwards
18:17:14 <zardon> yeah, i dunno im more into system software rather than UI
18:17:14 <OrngeTide> zardon, i code vxworks, qnx and embedded linux for a living. I get enough about kernels, memory managers, schedulers and drivers. :)
18:17:14 <zardon> nice~
18:17:14 <zardon> you dig that stuff?
18:17:14 <OrngeTide> users don't judge a system on what kind of memory management technique you use. they judge it on what it looks and feels like.
18:17:14 <zardon> heh, i do
18:17:29 <zardon> but yeah, for consumer computers
18:17:53 <OrngeTide> kinda like someone buying a car, they sit in it. take it for a test drive. etc. they don't open it up and count the number of values.
18:18:09 <Herkamire> OrngeTide: I hade dialog boxes more than most people, but the aqua ones are very nice when the pop up for windows you're not using right now
18:18:24 <OrngeTide> zardon, really for any kind of computer. technical people will put up with flawed interface as long as their goals can be met.
18:18:47 <cleverdra> ornge - untechnical people, likewise.
18:18:52 <OrngeTide> but a super computer with a nice UI versus a super computer with an obtuse UI. .. well if you want to be competive you might have to do some work on the UI
18:19:21 <OrngeTide> Herkamire, yea. i don't like dialogs popping up on me when i'm in some other application.
18:19:36 <OrngeTide> Herkamire, but there are better ways to handle this than locking the dialog to the parent window frame
18:20:03 <cleverdra> ornge - people that decide to buy a car solely by 'sitting in it, taking it for a test drive, etc' immediately disqualify themselves from programmer-and-computer-level familiarity and pickiness.
18:20:13 <cleverdra> ornge - with regard to cars, I mean.
18:20:44 <OrngeTide> cleverdra, well nontechnical people will judge it solely on it's interface and really don't care what speed cpu it has or how much ram it has or what kind of bus architecture it has. (unless some technical personl they trust told them it was important)
18:21:17 <OrngeTide> cleverdra, sure. but i'm familiar with computers and I think windows UI is gross as hell and I refuse to use it.
18:21:25 <cleverdra> ornge - no, they care whether they can get their job done, how much the interface facilitates this, and how often they have to wait for the bloody thing to respond.
18:21:46 <OrngeTide> I don't care if windowsNT/2k/xp has good user threading and IO completion ports and is the most popular OS.
18:22:03 <OrngeTide> cleverdra, that's all part of the UI
18:22:11 <OrngeTide> cleverdra, when I say UI i don't just mean buttons and scrollbars.
18:22:32 <cleverdra> ornge - yes, but you seem to imply that 'nontechnical' means 'looking at the pretty interface' instead of actually using the computer to get a job done.
18:22:44 <OrngeTide> cleverdra, how long the system takes to boot up. counts as UI
18:22:52 <slava> i have this crazy idea for my programming language where the entire development interface is accessable from the outer interpreter loop
18:23:00 <OrngeTide> if the system takes a long time and just shows a black screen. that's a bad interface.
18:23:09 <slava> and have the interpreter be run inside a special terminal with rich text support, and links, etc.
18:23:17 <slava> links that invoke words when clicked
18:23:20 <cleverdra> ornge - eh, obviously.
18:23:22 <OrngeTide> if it has to take a long time. showing something, or beeping can help aleve some user anexity
18:23:46 <cleverdra> ornge - again, obviously.  Humans hate the most for computers to ignore the human.
18:23:57 <OrngeTide> cleverdra, yea. you're right thought. people should test drive computers too.
18:24:10 <cleverdra> one of my primary annoyances with the Windows UI -- it doesn't care about the user.
18:24:11 <OrngeTide> sit down at a computer and write a 1page letter and see how it feels
18:24:19 <cleverdra> ornge - eh, no.
18:24:19 <OrngeTide> that should be how people buy computers.
18:24:39 <cleverdra> ornge - I've no idea by what bizarre processes you managed to ascribe that argument to me.
18:25:06 <OrngeTide> cleverdra, "...'looking at the pretty interface' instead of actually using the computer to get a job done."
18:25:25 <cleverdra> ornge - please read more carefully.
18:25:32 <OrngeTide> cleverdra, speak more clearly.
18:25:39 <cleverdra> ornge - you first.
18:25:47 <OrngeTide> cleverdra, no thanks.
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18:30:52 <cleverdra> ornge - I expect people to buy computers based on what they already have skill with, in general -- which will grow more and more frequent an occurence as people grow up with computers.
18:30:52 <cleverdra> ornge - and, since you've read the logs to read this, please take a moment to read back over the last five minutes or so.  Maybe you'll see things a bit more clearly.
18:31:44 <cleverdra> block - please read more carefully, yourself.
18:32:24 <cleverdra> block - OK, I now ignore messages from you.
18:34:27 <Sonarman> huh?
18:35:06 <cleverdra> sonar - he twice messaged me a paste of his IRC client's "OrngeTide has /quit" message.
18:36:18 <zardon> hmm
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19:49:23 <Herkamire> I think putting a crash notice in the quit message is _very bad advertising_ for an irc client
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20:14:41 <slava> i've uploaded a new release of my scripting language.
20:14:45 <slava> http://slava.kicks-ass.org/slava/Factor.jar
20:15:11 <slava> it now has a bad-ass compiler (but it still needs a lot of work). the httpd seems to be broken in this release; something with array handling. i'll investigate later.
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20:37:40 * warpzero is away: Well I did not think the girl could be so cruel, and I'm never going back to my old school.
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21:33:51 <slava> without the compiler:
21:33:51 <slava>   ok> [ 100 [ a3 ] times ] time
21:33:51 <slava> 5117
21:33:54 <slava> with the compiler:
21:33:59 <slava>   ok> [ 100 [ a3 ] times ] time
21:33:59 <slava> 65
21:34:05 <slava> "a3" is a little benchmark :)
21:34:26 <cleverdra> yay.
21:34:43 <slava> that's almost 100 times as fast :)
21:45:13 <kc5tja> I'm back.
21:55:05 <Herkamire> herkforth is coming along :)
21:56:03 <Herkamire> it now catches segfault/sigill, does cut/paste, keeps track of where definitions are in source (even when they move or are deleted)
22:00:45 <Herkamire> editor always displayes the definition of the word under the cursor
22:01:05 * kc5tja nods
22:01:09 <kc5tja> congrats.
22:01:19 <kc5tja> FTS/Forth's cross compiler has a set of primitives for it now.
22:01:26 <kc5tja> I can use it to make real-world applications under Linux.
22:01:37 <kc5tja> FTS/Forth itself reads in lines of text, and can parse words.
22:01:44 <kc5tja> It cannot interpret them at the moment.
22:02:02 <I440r> no find ?
22:02:09 <kc5tja> Not yet implemented.
22:02:27 <kc5tja> Even so, my 'find' is a little bit higher level than other Forth implementations.
22:02:31 <I440r> cool - getting that one and "interpret" was a major mile stone for isforth :)
22:02:38 <I440r> that and getting does> to work
22:02:48 <kc5tja> It's called 'classify,' and returns a jump-table index along with other required data to simplify the interpreter and compiler loops.
22:02:51 <I440r> thats when i felt i had a real forth, when does> worked right :)
22:03:53 <Herkamire> hehe :)
22:04:25 <Herkamire> I felt like I had a real forth when I could type: 2 4 + .
22:04:34 <Herkamire> and I don't plan on implementing does>
22:05:47 <I440r> does> is inefficient
22:05:54 <I440r> but versatile
22:06:04 <I440r> not an absolute requirement tho
22:06:14 <I440r> but it was such a RUSH when i had it working lol
22:10:19 <Sonarman> why is does> inefficient?
22:11:41 <I440r> well. an example
22:11:48 <I440r> : constant create , does> @ ;
22:12:13 <I440r> the does is an immediate word that compiles a ;code into the definition for constant. it then compiles a call dodoes.
22:12:35 <I440r> when constant is execute it creates a "variable" which has a cfa that does a "call dovariable" 
22:12:55 <I440r> the ;code pathces this call to be a call to the "call dodoes" that was compiled into the definition of constant itself
22:13:11 <I440r> so a constant made this way does a call to some address which does a call to dodoes
22:13:22 <I440r> dodoes pushes ip onto the return stack
22:13:39 <I440r> pops the return address of the call dodoes off the stack INTO ip
22:13:44 <I440r> thats the address to be interpreted
22:13:58 <I440r> the interpreted code has the body field address of the constant still on the stack
22:14:01 <I440r> thats alot of jumping arround
22:14:07 <I440r> hers a more efficient way
22:14:15 <I440r> : constant create , ;uses doconstant ;
22:14:46 <I440r> constant creates a variable., the ";uses doconstant' pathces that variable to use doconstant instead
22:15:05 <I440r> when you run the constant it does a call to doconstant leaving the body field address 
22:15:14 <I440r> doconstant just fetches the contents of that address
22:15:19 <I440r> much more efficient
22:15:36 <I440r> but does> is more versatile
22:15:46 --- join: Serg (~z@212.34.52.140) joined #forth
22:15:51 <I440r> you can do all kinds of funky shit with does> :)
22:15:54 <I440r> hi serg!
22:16:01 <Serg> hi !
22:16:19 <I440r> btw the method of doing does> etc above isnt the ONLY methopd
22:16:29 <I440r> but does> words are always less efficient
22:16:35 <Herkamire> kc5tja: I'm glad to hear fts/forth is coming along
22:17:30 <Serg> one friend wishes a proggie 4r comparing/cracking binary savegames ;)
22:17:46 <Serg> i wanna make it in Forth, w/ Forth as built-in language
22:17:53 <Serg> how do u see it ?
22:18:05 <Serg> i see it as:
22:18:30 <Serg> 1) both command-line (script-driven) and dialog (textmode)
22:19:06 <Serg> 2) comparing _many_ files for same, different, zero, growing or falling values
22:19:40 <Serg> any more ideas ?
22:20:16 <Serg> do u wish thing like diff-patch, or dialog thingie ?
22:20:16 <I440r> most save games are encrypted these days
22:20:25 <I440r> usually with just simple shit tho
22:20:38 <Serg> heh, that guy cracked many ;))
22:20:51 <Serg> and one recent game had even text ones ;))
22:20:59 <Serg> btw, Quake has text saves too
22:21:06 <I440r> i used to crach the copy protection on games i bought just so i could make backups hjehe
22:21:06 <Serg> GTA3 are plain ;))
22:22:01 <Serg> a while ago, he was writing for online press, www.gameover.ru ;)
22:22:36 <Serg> so he's a figure on ze scene, not just casual player
22:23:07 <Serg> he says he'll help me to sell the prog ;))
22:23:19 <Serg> butt i wanna it be GPL ;)
22:23:41 <Serg> and promoting Forth on horseback of games industry
22:24:32 <Serg> what features do _you_ need ?
22:24:33 <I440r> ya!
22:24:40 <I440r> disassembler :)
22:24:43 <I440r> debugger
22:24:48 <Serg> hell no !
22:24:51 <I440r> hehe
22:25:03 <Serg> it gonna be advanced HEX editor ;))
22:25:12 <I440r> i alwyays reverse engineered save games by reverse engineering the code
22:26:19 <Serg> oops ! too pro for average playing market ;))
22:26:30 * Serg never dug code
22:27:16 <Serg> BTW, i just RevEng'ed a proggi by just feeding it special kind of input and analyzing output
22:27:44 * cleverdra remembers a nifty program on DOS that allowed him to simply hack at random programs and, in particular, Ultima 5, by stopping the world and starting a hex editor on the program's memory space.  It had some intelligence, of course -- you could easy search for deltas of various kinds.
22:27:56 <cleverdra> I think I used it at 8 or so =)
22:28:23 <Serg> some games have protection inside
22:28:55 <cleverdra> You hit the alt+twiggle or something.  alt+twiggle (fiddle) drop 1 gold coin alt+twiggle (fiddle) go back to armory and spend this 999-gold-coin purse =)
22:28:55 <Serg> 'Paradise cracked' goes blue if sum of hero stats go beyond 200 while playing
22:29:17 <cleverdra> bah, pointless.
22:29:39 <Serg> but editing save, u can set all to 199 (it's RPG)
22:29:47 <cleverdra> Most people won't want bother and others will note it later as a life-directing experience.
22:30:09 <cleverdra> I find editing the game in-place more interesting, as that program allowed =)
22:31:08 <cleverdra> A friend of mind recently did quite of a bit of researched (experimental, using the fiddle-and-crash-the-world method) hacking of iLarn on PalmOS.
22:32:00 <Serg> heh, for saves you can distro 'cracks' , just like 4 shareware ;))
22:32:11 <cleverdra> he found the database that corresponded to the inventory, for instance, and noted it as a simple list of one-byte-for-one-inventory-item
22:32:14 <Serg> if values are on same places ;)))
22:32:51 <Serg> for online edit, it's harder
22:33:15 <cleverdra> and then created a database on paper of the byte values.  iLarn has open source =) but he didn't know that.
22:33:53 <Serg> anyway, cleverdra, what features do u want in such advanced HEX editor ?
22:34:06 <Serg> or advanced bindiff - binpatch ?
22:35:54 <cleverdra> I don't suppose I want any, anymore.  Sorry =)
22:36:23 <cleverdra> the delta-searching seems nifty, though.
22:36:29 <Sonarman> thanks for the explanation, I440r:
22:36:35 <Serg> delta-search ?
22:36:49 <cleverdra> search for deltas of bytes and sets of bytes.
22:37:30 <Serg> aha ! search for values different by given number ?
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22:37:50 <I440r> Sonarman, hehe i explained how doss> works in detail to a guy on clf :)
22:38:35 <cleverdra> e.g., if you in the game get rid of a certain amount of a numbered item, bindiff could allow you to hunt down the number of that item and change it -- by a search of what data changed by that amount between saves.
22:38:53 <Serg> yes, got it !
22:39:29 <Serg> do u think comparing many files is more yieldful than 2 ?
22:39:36 <cleverdra> or you could save a game every hour, whilst doing nothing else, and see what kind of time-travel you can get from that =)
22:40:38 <Serg> say, i save w/ 100 life, hit self, save, hit self more etc....
22:40:55 <Serg> and then search for falling value, or for given numbers
22:41:13 <cleverdra> aye, searching for something that varies by a constant amount in 10 files would allow you to hunt down a clock -- and some fuzziness in that 'constant delta' would make it easier on the save-game-pressing-user =)
22:41:21 <cleverdra> aye =)
22:41:59 <cleverdra> or just hit yourself and save and hit yourself and save and see what falls and also has a value in the range of [0,200], say.
22:43:03 <cleverdra> search for delta-x for delta-x<0 and xE[0,200] in save.gam[0-5]
22:43:04 <Serg> aha !
22:43:28 <cleverdra> er, 'search for x for delta-x<0 ...'
22:43:35 <Serg> any regexp-like lib for bin values ?
22:43:54 <Serg> or just convert'em to string and use normal regexp lib ?
22:44:38 <cleverdra> so that'd look for all values in save.gam[0-5] where value-of:save.gam0 > value-of:save.gam1 > value-of:save.gam2 > ... and where each value falls within [0,200]
22:45:00 <Serg> got it !
22:45:14 <cleverdra> I dunno.  I suppose that you don't actually have to parse something like 'search for delta-x ...', but something that would allow such a search would have all kinds of niftiness, I think =)
22:45:19 <cleverdra> ok =)
22:46:06 * Serg runs to bookstore for 'mastering regexp' book ;))))
23:15:15 <mur> hey e
23:17:57 <ASau> Dobroe utro!
23:18:41 <ASau> Serg, why use regexps? It is not text, you have all positions fixed.
23:19:03 <mur> privet ASau i Serg, kak dela tam?
23:19:17 <mur> kak tut dela
23:22:02 --- quit: Herkamire ("goodnight all")
23:36:02 <ASau> I should go.
23:36:04 <ASau> Bye
23:36:07 --- quit: ASau ()
23:36:24 <kc5tja> Yeah, I'm going to go to bed myself.
23:36:39 <kc5tja> I was expecting to stay up and code, but man, 16 miles of bike riding just takes a lot out of you. :)
23:37:03 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK")
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/04.01.28