00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.01.25
00:04:23 * I440r guesses msp-430
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01:07:21 <kc5tja> proteusguy: I was going to use the 65816
01:07:25 <kc5tja> Oh goodness!  the time!!
01:07:31 * kc5tja has to get to bed.  Work in the morning.  :(
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08:16:47 <Teratogen> !
08:16:52 <Teratogen> CQ CQ CQ
08:18:06 * kc5tja is NOT in a very good mood at the moment.
08:18:17 <kc5tja> I reboot Linux, and now my sound is shot to hell.
08:18:24 <kc5tja> And nothing I'm doing is able to fix it.
08:18:26 <kc5tja> Not a *#($&ing thing.
08:18:28 <Teratogen> rebewt
08:18:33 <Teratogen> heh, that's nothing
08:18:38 <kc5tja> Teratogen: How many times do I have to reboot?
08:18:41 <Teratogen> I've discovered a lump in my lower left abdomen
08:18:51 <Teratogen> I'm hoping it's either diverticulitis or a hernia
08:19:09 <Teratogen> kc5, you could try tinkering with your sound modules
08:19:15 <Teratogen> if you loaded your sound driver as a module
08:19:48 <kc5tja> My sound drivers are embedded in the kernel itself.
08:19:53 <kc5tja> And it's worked in the past (obviously!).
08:20:07 <kc5tja> Just for some RETARDED and FUCKED reason, it decided, "Gee, let's FUCK with Sam today! HAHAH!"
08:20:30 <Teratogen> I think God is fucking with me
08:20:36 <Teratogen> anyway, heading into the doctor on Monday
08:20:40 <Teratogen> I hope it's a nothing
08:21:02 <kc5tja> Good luck.
08:21:21 <Teratogen> yep, thanks
08:21:29 <Teratogen> I've been doing some internet searches
08:21:47 <Teratogen> the closest I can come to a relatively benign diagnosis is diverticulitis or a hernia =)
08:21:59 <Teratogen> both of which are minor surgical procedures
08:22:31 <kc5tja> I wish I could do a minor surgical procedure on my ($#@*&$(#*&ING OS right now... >:(
08:22:39 <Teratogen> hahaha
08:22:43 <Teratogen> what version of linux?
08:22:52 <Teratogen> I remember I had to finaigle one sound card to work
08:22:57 <Teratogen> it was a weird-ass soundblaster card
08:23:04 <Teratogen> and I had to feed the module two numbers
08:23:14 <Teratogen> so I kept trying number pairs until I got something that worked
08:23:16 <Teratogen> *shrug*
08:23:25 <kc5tja> 2.4.22, but it has worked for the past YEAR without any problems, and across numerous reboots.
08:23:33 <kc5tja> There is *nothing* to cause it to just magically stop working.
08:23:43 <Teratogen> maybe you have an electrolytic capacitor on the sound board that went bye bye
08:23:51 <Teratogen> electrolytics have finite lifespans
08:23:54 <Teratogen> try another sound card
08:24:11 <Teratogen> sound cards tend to have a lot of electrolytics on them
08:24:14 <Teratogen> at least, old ones do
08:24:29 <Teratogen> I am going to play around with the Icon programming language today
08:24:30 <Teratogen> whoot
08:24:50 <Teratogen> apparently it was written by the same guy who wrote Snobol
08:25:03 <kc5tja> Electrolytics don't just go poof after only 3 years, especially under low-voltage situations.
08:25:03 <Teratogen> and now some professor at University of Arizona swears by it
08:25:16 <Teratogen> kc5tja, there were a batch of bad electrolytics recently
08:25:32 <Teratogen> bad run at a Taiwanese factory
08:25:40 <Teratogen> resulting in the recall of a shitload of motherboards
08:26:26 <kc5tja> When did this happen?
08:27:01 <Teratogen> I think about a year ago
08:27:12 <Teratogen> did you try all the dumb stuff?
08:27:17 <Teratogen> like maybe the card became unseated
08:27:30 <Teratogen> or that the jacks aren't fully inserted?
08:27:35 <Teratogen> what does your sound sound like?
08:27:47 <kc5tja> Teratogen: It sounds like, "............................"
08:27:50 <kc5tja> E.g., DEAD SILENCE.
08:28:07 <mur> hmm
08:28:32 <Teratogen> that IS odd
08:29:51 <Teratogen> cat /proc/modules
08:29:58 <Teratogen> does it show a sound module even loaded?
08:30:14 <kc5tja> Teratogen: No, because it's cored right into the kernel itself.
08:30:17 <kc5tja> I did not compile it as a module.
08:30:50 <Teratogen> http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/02/05/2327218&mode=thread&tid=137
08:30:57 <Teratogen> bad capacitors
08:31:09 <Teratogen> kc5tja, hmm, I'd try a couple of things
08:31:25 <Teratogen> boot knoppix from a a live CD
08:31:29 <Teratogen> see if sound works with that
08:31:30 <Teratogen> =)
08:31:40 <Teratogen> is it the card that has gone bad?
08:31:51 <Teratogen> if it works with Knoppix, then it's not the card
08:31:55 <Teratogen> what kind of card is it?
08:31:57 <kc5tja> There is no current empirical evidence to suggest the card is bad.
08:32:00 <Teratogen> did the card become unseated?
08:32:03 <Teratogen> *shrug*
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08:32:09 <Teratogen> those are just things that I would try
08:32:39 <Teratogen> do you have multiple operating systems on this box?
08:32:47 <Teratogen> try booting from another operating system like Winblowz if you ahve it
08:32:52 <Teratogen> see if the sound card works with that
08:32:59 <Teratogen> take a good look at /proc
08:33:07 <kc5tja> No.
08:33:15 <kc5tja> Everything in /proc seems to be in order.
08:33:23 <Teratogen> like at /proc/devices, /proc/pci
08:33:27 <Teratogen> even the interrupts
08:33:32 <Teratogen> are the fucking speakers turned on
08:33:33 <Teratogen> etc.
08:33:42 <Teratogen> these are things that I would try
08:33:50 <Teratogen> that's about all the general information that I can give you
08:33:54 <kc5tja> I have headphones.
08:33:55 <Teratogen> you are on the edge of the Quality track
08:34:01 <Teratogen> where ANYTHING can happen
08:34:08 <Teratogen> if you run out of gumption
08:34:09 <Teratogen> take a break
08:34:14 <Teratogen> have a cup of coffee
08:34:18 <Teratogen> go for a ride on your bicycle
08:34:32 <Teratogen> maybe the answer will come to you will you are riding the subway in New York City
08:34:42 <Teratogen> or maybe you will fall asleep and the answer will come to you in a dream
08:34:49 <Teratogen> caffeine often is of great help
08:35:03 <kc5tja> caffeine is a great help for my heart palpatations.  That'll likely put me in a hospital.
08:35:10 <Teratogen> do you know how the Theta-Fuchsian functions were discovered?
08:35:21 <Teratogen> one night Poincare couldn't sleep, so he drank a lot of coffee
08:35:37 <Teratogen> suddenly ideas came to him and began to link together
08:35:39 <Teratogen> and voila!
08:35:49 <Teratogen> he had discovered (or invented?) the theta-fuchsian functions
08:35:56 <Teratogen> so quit yer griping
08:36:02 <Teratogen> gripe gripe gripe
08:36:09 <Teratogen> that's all I hear outta yous guys
08:36:54 <Teratogen> Aluminum electrolytic capacitors with a low equivalent series resistance (ESR) are high-capacitance components that generally serve to smooth out the power supply to chips. Throughout 2002, they have been breaking open and failing in certain desktop PCs. Motherboard and PC makers contacted by IEEE Spectrum have stopped using the faulty parts, but because the parts can fail over a period of several months, more such failures are expected.
08:37:09 <Teratogen> !
08:37:32 <kc5tja> My card was purchased in 2001, so that doesn't apply.
08:37:40 <Teratogen> For Gary Headlee, who repairs electronics in Midvale, Utah, the trouble surfaced at the end of 2001, when users of PCs with ABIT motherboards began to complain of leaking capacitors. Headlee's solution was to replace all the low-ESR aluminum electrolytic capacitors of 1000 microfarads or over.
08:37:46 <Teratogen> hah
08:37:48 <Teratogen> anyway
08:37:48 <kc5tja> And I have no idea what the heck theta-fuchsian functions are.
08:37:51 <Teratogen> it's just a thought
08:37:55 <Teratogen> time to reboot linux!
08:37:59 <kc5tja> DUDE!
08:38:02 <kc5tja> This is the third time!
08:38:02 <Teratogen> yeap?
08:38:03 <Teratogen> =D
08:38:05 <kc5tja> IT doesn't WORD
08:38:05 <kc5tja> WORK
08:38:08 <kc5tja> PERIOD.
08:38:10 <Teratogen> power cycle the bitch
08:38:14 <Teratogen> shutdown -h now
08:38:20 <Teratogen> turn the big red switch off
08:38:23 <kc5tja> If I have to purchase a new card, I'll be *pissed*.
08:38:26 <Teratogen> wait a few moments
08:38:38 <Teratogen> then you say to everybody in the room: "ok everybody, hold on to your butts"
08:38:45 <Teratogen> then flip that big red switch back on , baby!
08:38:51 <Teratogen> haha, you don't know where I live
08:39:03 <kc5tja> Nor do I particularly care.
08:39:12 <Teratogen> you'll never find me!
08:39:16 <Teratogen> I have a cave/bunker in the hills
08:39:23 <Teratogen> with positive pressure and a month'
08:39:27 <Teratogen> s supply of food and water
08:39:48 * Teratogen makes preparations to bug out.
08:39:57 <kc5tja> Good luck on that doctor's visit.
08:40:02 <Teratogen> just in case kc5tja's sound card emits the magic smoke
08:40:04 <Teratogen> oh yeah
08:40:07 <Teratogen> trying to take my mind off that
08:40:09 <Teratogen> =/
08:40:17 <kc5tja> I'm going to fiddle some more.
08:40:19 <Teratogen> why the fuck should there be a lump in my lower left abdomen?
08:40:23 <Teratogen> @#!$*)$
08:40:24 <Teratogen> ok
08:40:37 <Teratogen> the liver ain't down there
08:40:39 <Teratogen> no kidneys
08:40:45 <Teratogen> just intestines and colon
08:41:00 <Teratogen> so it's either diverticulitis or a hernia or god help me, I hope it's not a cancer
08:41:05 <kc5tja> And pancreas.
08:41:10 <Teratogen> if it is, I am going to start drinking.  heavily.
08:41:20 <Teratogen> pancreas is more toward the center
08:41:23 <Teratogen> not lower left
08:41:25 <Teratogen> but I will check that out
08:41:36 <Teratogen> plus pancreatic cancer is excruciatingly painful
08:41:41 <Teratogen> this seems to be near the surface
08:41:46 <Teratogen> and it's not painful at all
08:41:59 <Teratogen> where the hell is the pancreas?
08:42:04 <Teratogen> isn't it tucked below the stomach?
08:42:13 <Teratogen> that would be above and behind the navel
08:42:29 <Teratogen> there's nothing in the lower left abdomen but intestines and colon
08:42:41 <Teratogen> plus the abdominal muscles themselves
08:42:42 <Teratogen> *shrug*
08:42:45 <Teratogen> it's a mystery!@
08:42:50 <Teratogen> ok, going to install Icon now
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08:43:14 <Teratogen> http://www.cs.arizona.edu/icon/
08:43:17 <Teratogen> wwhoot
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08:51:44 <kc5tja> I'll try reseating the card later today, when I get back from work.
08:52:07 <kc5tja> But I need this sound card working to work on my client's project.  >:(  And if I have to purchase another one, I'll be right pissed.
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09:00:55 <Teratogen> did it work?
09:01:04 <Teratogen> http://www.cs.arizona.edu/icon/
09:01:08 * Teratogen is installing icon!
09:01:09 <Teratogen> whoot!
09:02:24 <kc5tja> No.
09:02:27 <kc5tja> As predicted.
09:02:51 <kc5tja> But I don't see how reseating the card can help.  PCI detects everything, so it can see the card and bit-bang the registers.
09:03:00 <kc5tja> But, that's the last thing before purchasing a new card.  :(
09:12:53 <slava> hi kc5tja
09:13:37 <kc5tja> re 
09:13:42 <slava> kc5tja, how is fs/forth?
09:13:59 <kc5tja> Stalled temporarily while I go on a learning binge.
09:14:58 * kc5tja has learned the J programming language enough to grok it (and APL, by extension) and learn how to better apply vectors (1-dimensional arrays) as a central data structure.
09:16:49 <chandler> slava: how is LSD?
09:21:02 <slava> chandler, i've been busy with jEdit and the game. but I intend to do more work on the compiler soon.
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09:45:44 <Teratogen> Richard Stalledman
09:46:03 <Teratogen> kc5, don't you have any more sound cards?
09:46:14 <Teratogen> or is the sound chipset on the motherboard?
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09:53:58 <kc5tja> No, it's not on the board, and I don't have any more sound cards.
09:54:01 <kc5tja> I only have need for one.
09:56:43 <slava> hi Herkamire
10:03:22 <Teratogen> http://www.extremetech.com/print_article/0,3998,a=117223,00.asp
10:03:25 <Teratogen> there ya go, kc
10:03:32 <Teratogen> 4 live cd linux distros for you to try
10:06:53 <Teratogen> kc, when was the last time you plugged your headphones into your sound card?
10:07:06 <Teratogen> one time I did that and I plugged them into the microphone jack by mistake
10:07:07 <Teratogen> =)
10:09:42 * slava turns up the volume on his SB live :}
10:09:55 <Teratogen> are you slavic, slava?
10:10:31 <slava> russian :}
10:11:19 <Teratogen> KOMRAD!
10:11:30 <kc5tja> Teratogen: I never removed them.
10:12:04 <kc5tja> Anyway, I need to get to work.
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10:16:00 <Teratogen> get to work!~
10:18:48 <Herkamire> hi slava  :)
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10:21:08 <Herkamire> I finished my SIGSEGV/SIGILL handlers in my forth
10:23:01 <slava> great :)
10:23:08 <slava> done anything with opengl?
10:28:18 <Herkamire> I was playing with opengl a couple weeks ago for my ZUI experiments
10:29:07 <slava> will your forth have opengl bindings? that'd be cool.
10:29:17 <Herkamire> of the methods I tried (mmap /dev/fb/0, SDL, opengl) opengl was the fastest
10:29:26 <Herkamire> no bindings in my forth
10:29:58 <Herkamire> but it was still slower than I was hoping for
10:30:20 <Herkamire> I would like the ZUI system to maintain 70fps
10:30:42 <Herkamire> opengl came in around 45-50 IIRC
10:31:57 <Herkamire> I decided to postpone playing with ZUI until after I get it booting
10:33:49 <slava> what booting?
10:35:36 <Herkamire> herkforth
10:36:15 <Herkamire> I want to play with graphics and it's too &^#$# slow under linux
10:39:18 * madgarden thinks the Mars Spirit rover should have been using Forth instead.
10:49:13 <ASau> Dobryjj vecher!
10:50:10 <slava> ASau, privet :}
10:50:18 <ASau> Privet!
11:04:49 <slava> i think i can compile any word in factor as long as it does not call other code quotations (XTs).
11:10:34 <Herkamire> slava: still working on creating the return stack?
11:11:16 <slava> Herkamire, what do you mean?
11:16:51 <Herkamire> slava: I'm trying to understand you. are you saying you can define a word, but not if it calls other words?
11:17:05 <slava> i can define a word that does whatever i want :)
11:17:16 <slava> but if the word calls other words *dynamically*, it can only be interpreted
11:17:18 <slava> not compiled
11:17:28 <Herkamire> oh
11:17:31 <slava> eg, if i have : foo $bar call ;
11:17:34 <slava> i cannot compile this.
11:17:40 <Herkamire> I see
11:17:41 <slava> but : foo + swap 3 * ; or whatever is ok.
11:17:53 <slava> this is not a big deal
11:18:02 <slava> since performance critical code doesn't tend to make dynamic calls anyway.
11:18:08 <Herkamire> right
11:18:34 <Herkamire> you can always add that feature later
11:19:30 <slava> in fact i plan on compiling combinators whose parameters are *literal* code quotations.
11:19:43 <slava> eg, : foo < [ ... ] [ ... ] ifte ; will be compiled.
11:20:15 <Herkamire> what's a code quotation? you mean saving the actual text of the sources?
11:21:06 <slava> i think its like this:
11:21:24 <slava> [ 2 2 + ] call in Factor is the same as :noname 2 2 + ; lastxt execute in forth
11:25:48 <ASau> Hm. Do you use Joy?
11:26:12 <ASau> Why?
11:26:48 <slava> joy is a big influence on my language.
11:28:19 <ASau> I see you use  "<cond> <then> <else> ifte".
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11:28:57 <ASau> Why do you not use reverse order: "<else> <then> <cond> if" ?
11:29:06 <ASau> This should be better.
11:29:27 <ASau> It is more "functional" and more functional at the same time.
11:30:46 <ASau> BTW, may be in Russian I could expolain better. I can choose better words.
11:31:43 <slava> Herkamire, cool
11:31:48 <slava> Herkamire, i added a check for 'simple' words
11:31:53 <slava> Herkamire, that don't call quotations
11:32:02 <slava> Herkamire, in the base library, only 15 words cannot be compiled
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14:51:10 <Herkamire> slava: cool
14:52:06 <Herkamire> slava: dealing with your quotations sounds like a similar chalange to compiling string literals into definitions
14:54:25 <slava> Herkamire, compiling string literals?
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14:55:21 <Herkamire> : say-hello ." hello, " name @ count type ;
14:55:58 <Herkamire> mmmm
14:56:26 <Herkamire> s/@/c@/
14:56:52 <Herkamire> it is sometimes a chalange in writing a forth to support compiling strings in the middle of a definition like that.
14:59:22 <slava> well since Factor has gc, it just heap-allocates strings.
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15:05:33 <Herkamire> yeah, it's mostly only tricky when you have one memory area for code and data
15:12:53 --- nick: _proteus -> proteusguy
16:06:37 <slava> Herkamire, you around?
16:07:02 <Teratogen> how many forths still actually buffer 1024 bit blocks to and from secondary storage?
16:07:17 <Teratogen> 1024 byte, I should say
16:12:10 <slava> Herkamire, compiler is going well.
16:12:19 <slava> i think now its what you'd call "indirect threaded".
16:13:03 <slava> with a bit more work, it will be optimal in all causes except math, where the heap-allocated boxing of integers and floats is a killer.
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16:18:45 <Teratogen> I440r
16:19:03 <Teratogen> how many forths still actually buffer 1024 byte blocks to and from secondary storage?
16:20:13 <ASau> Practically all.
16:20:16 <ASau> Compatibility
16:21:57 <I440r> hi
16:22:12 <I440r> not isforth :) heheh
16:22:23 <I440r> isforth memory maps the entier file. 
16:22:49 <I440r> fload uses the memory mapping as its terminal input buffer. when tib is empty its because the entier file has been parsed
16:22:56 <I440r> refill will close the file
16:23:27 <I440r> oh. i do have a block file extension tho
16:23:32 <I440r> but its untested
16:23:52 <I440r> i didnt add it so you could compile from blocks
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16:25:02 <Teratogen> what!
16:25:06 <Teratogen> I440r, that's heresy!
16:25:14 <Teratogen> HERESY!
16:25:34 <I440r> i have always admitted being a heretic
16:31:42 <ASau> Hm. Teratogen, are you orthodox?
16:31:50 <ASau> Or catholic? ;)
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16:37:02 <I440r> lol
16:37:06 <I440r> shaddap :P
16:39:49 <Teratogen> I am circumcized
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17:21:21 <Herkamire> lol
17:21:27 <qFox> hmm
17:21:30 <Herkamire> congradulations Teratogen ;)
17:21:36 <qFox> anyone know the proper name for the email filter system
17:21:44 <qFox> that uses a white list, and a confirm system?
17:22:23 <qFox> so if you send a mail w/o being on the white list (or black), you get a mail to confirm your email
17:22:38 <qFox> if you confirm you get to go on the whitelist... its very effective but i dont know the proper name
17:25:01 <Herkamire> qFox: sounds cool :) I thought of that
17:25:10 <qFox> eh?
17:25:21 <qFox> well my aunt's isp has this system
17:25:32 <qFox> and i must say it appeals to me
17:25:42 <Herkamire> send her an email :)
17:25:44 <qFox> will stop almost all of the random spam
17:25:47 <qFox> her isp...
17:25:49 <qFox> :)
17:26:06 <Herkamire> does the message you get contain the name of the software?
17:26:50 <Herkamire> I thought of doing something like that. I decided to use SpamAssassin instead
17:27:43 <qFox> i was hoping someone simply knew the name :p
17:28:06 <qFox> i'm looking for webspace and a host for it all, so i might as well put down my demands and requests :p
17:29:24 <Herkamire> webspace for what-all?
17:29:35 <qFox> my homepage
17:29:37 <qFox> domain
17:29:42 <qFox> the whole shabam
17:29:43 <Herkamire> :)
17:29:43 <qFox> :)
17:29:48 <qFox> nothing serious
17:29:56 <Herkamire> I do web hosting
17:29:58 <qFox> but it has to have things like php and mysql
17:30:15 <Herkamire> you'll have to get your demands clear first though ;)
17:30:27 <qFox> the demands are clear
17:30:30 <qFox> if you can read dutch :p
17:30:36 <qFox> but i can easily translate them for you
17:30:39 <Herkamire> got me there :)
17:30:42 <qFox> the question is, can you register .nl domains?
17:30:53 <Herkamire> donno
17:31:00 <qFox> because that's kind of a must :p
17:31:09 <Herkamire> can't you do it?
17:31:23 <qFox> i think so
17:31:32 <qFox> but wouldnt know what to do with just a domainname
17:31:34 <qFox> :)
17:31:46 <Herkamire> that's where I come in :)
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17:32:10 <qFox> ok well that was gay
17:32:29 <Herkamire> you need a domain name and web hosting, but you don't have to get them both from the same outfit.
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17:32:52 <qFox> no i'd just prefer to to save myself some administrative trouble
17:33:01 <qFox> also the package usualy means a discount in some way
17:33:13 <Herkamire> you can pay me to register it, as long as they accept US$
17:33:22 <qFox> i'm about to send a couple of these hosts a request for a offer 
17:33:24 <Herkamire> where?
17:33:36 <qFox> what do you mean where?
17:33:36 <Herkamire> (where do you get the discount?)
17:33:40 <qFox> oh no i mean
17:33:46 <qFox> in general
17:33:56 <qFox> all in one package thing, you know
17:34:09 <Herkamire> I see.
17:34:18 <Herkamire> I do free domain name if you sign up for a year
17:34:37 <qFox> well i can get the domains for 10 euro each by a friend, so that shouldnt be a problem
17:34:45 <qFox> lets do it pm
17:34:46 <qFox> :p
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17:37:29 <Herkamire> http://www.domain-registry.nl/  seems to be the registry for .nl I can't read it though.
17:37:38 <qFox> yea www.sidn.nl
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17:38:20 <qFox> stichting internet domein registratie (eh, thingie (nonprofit organisation) internet domain registration... obviously ;)
17:39:10 <Herkamire> only problem with irssi is that server message go to the current window. it's sometimes confusing when you get disconnection notices, and it's not for the server you're looking at.
17:40:04 <qFox> hehe
17:40:18 <qFox> got everything scripted in mirc here
17:41:42 <warpzero> sup kids
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18:46:31 <ASau> ?
18:47:09 <ASau> Just an interesting qustion.
18:47:44 <ASau> Have anyone seen onetom (*.u-szeged.hu) recently?
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21:12:31 <proteusguy> How's it going kc5? Sounds like been a frustrating time recently. Get your sound back?
21:13:12 <kc5tja> Yes.
21:13:23 <kc5tja> It was definitely very frustrating.
21:13:54 <proteusguy> Good news. What was that cpu you were using on your project?
21:14:04 <kc5tja> My ForthBox project?
21:14:46 <proteusguy> yes I think - the instant on box.
21:14:52 <kc5tja> 65816 if I couldn't somehow fit a MISC into one of the programmable logic chips (assuming I even decide to use programmable logic.  I might just go straight to discrete components for a first model, then slowly move up to CPLDs in a later version of the system).
21:16:27 <kc5tja> The 68000 is another option, but it has a more complex bus interface (it's asynchronous) plus has more pins (more board space to route), etc.
21:16:44 <kc5tja> But maybe that's what this thing needs, I don't know yet.  We'll see once I get the ForthBox running.  :)
21:17:14 <proteusguy> That's what I thought you said. Were you aware that is the cpu in the SuperNES machine?
21:17:25 <kc5tja> And in the Apple IIgs.
21:19:14 <proteusguy> oh - was thinking might be easier to start off with an existing box before making your own. Also give you some ideas about your display issue.
21:19:42 * kc5tja nods
21:20:21 <kc5tja> The problem is I want this to connect to a VGA monitor, for practicality reasons.
21:21:22 <kc5tja> Also, I believe I have solved a large part of my graphics display issues.
21:21:50 <proteusguy> ah....
21:22:05 * kc5tja has figured out how to very simply and efficiently implement a vector processing unit (yes, as in Cray-like vector processing units!) capable of doing rather sophisticated graphics manipulation.
21:23:25 <kc5tja> The vector unit can also do basic integer math too.  Maybe if I'm lucky, I can fit in a vector multiplier and divider too, making the concept slightly more useful too.
21:23:44 <proteusguy> hmm.... not familiar with this at all.
21:23:55 <kc5tja> Vectors are just 1-dimensional arrays of numbers.
21:24:01 <kc5tja> <1 2 3 4 5> is a vector.
21:24:15 <kc5tja> You can do various operations on vectors like you could with integers.
21:24:24 <proteusguy> yes - but not a vector processing unit.
21:24:26 <kc5tja> 5 + <1 2 3 4 5> = <6 7 8 9 10>
21:24:49 <kc5tja> A VPU is a hardware device that performs operations on vectors.
21:24:50 <kc5tja> :)
21:24:58 <proteusguy> oh - a single dimensional matrix processor.
21:25:29 <kc5tja> Well, a 1-dimensional array processor is more accurate.
21:25:36 <proteusguy> single dimension rather.
21:25:40 <proteusguy> yes.
21:26:03 <kc5tja> Though, my DMA engine would be able to express arbitrarily long arguments to the processing elements, so it could work with 1-D vectors of integers, or a 2-D matrix of bits (e.g., pixels).
21:26:05 <proteusguy> but the math is the same as matrix arithmatic, right?
21:26:25 <kc5tja> Matrix arithmetic is expressed in terms of vector arithmetic.
21:27:33 <proteusguy> So what's the majic in the VPU?
21:27:49 <kc5tja> Bit-serial ALUs that are fully programmable by the host processor.
21:28:26 <kc5tja> Basically, I can have six or eight 1-bit ALUs that are each operating independently.
21:28:42 <kc5tja> (More doesn't gain any speed, because RAM is the bottleneck)
21:29:16 <proteusguy> How does this address your memory performance problem?
21:29:36 <kc5tja> Each VPU would be operated under its own DMA channel.
21:29:50 <kc5tja> Since it's DMA governed, the CPU is out of the picture.
21:29:55 <proteusguy> oh!! so you gonna do DMA now? good.
21:29:59 <kc5tja> Thus, a 6MHz bus will yeild a throughput of 6MBps.
21:30:06 <kc5tja> I always was going to use DMA.
21:30:15 <kc5tja> Where did you get the idea I wasn't?
21:30:39 <kc5tja> Feeding the video serial shift registers with the CPU isn't conducive to realizing usable video resolutions.  :)
21:30:40 <proteusguy> You wanted to avoid it before was the impression I had.
21:30:56 <kc5tja> No, I wanted to minimize it, because I wanted a *simple* computer.
21:31:00 <kc5tja> whoa.
21:31:01 <kc5tja> *test*
21:31:03 <kc5tja> Freaky.
21:31:11 <cleverdra> kc5 - using irssi for the first time?
21:31:27 <Sonarman> hehe :)
21:31:39 <kc5tja> cleverdra: Using it seriously for the first time, yes.  I've tried it in the past, and didn't like it for some reason.  It seems to be more usable to me now.
21:32:04 <Sonarman> what did you use before? xchat?
21:32:05 <cleverdra> I've liked _irssi_ for some time.
21:32:22 <kc5tja> Sonarman: First BitchX, then X-Chat.
21:32:45 * kc5tja still likes X-Chat.  But I'm familiarizing myself with irssi because I'm definitely in need of a console-only IRC client for when things explode on me, like they did this morning.  :)
21:32:58 <proteusguy> Well sounds like a cool project. I'm hoping to live on  a boat some time in the not-so-distant future. Low power low noise is important.
21:33:10 <cleverdra> aye, irssi in GNU screen
21:33:21 <kc5tja> proteusguy: Cool.
21:33:32 <kc5tja> I'm really not sure how many people would purchase this kind of computer though.
21:33:37 <kc5tja> Not much demand for a 5MHz computer anymore.  :)
21:33:48 <proteusguy> definitely project work.
21:33:49 <Sonarman> you could advertise it in Creative Computing :)
21:33:59 <kc5tja> Sonarman: ??
21:34:07 <Sonarman> just a joke :)
21:34:26 <proteusguy> I was thinking Micro Cornucopia or Circuit Celler!
21:34:33 <kc5tja> I'm thinking of possibly selling the computer as a kit or something.
21:35:03 <proteusguy> Precisely.
21:35:41 <kc5tja> And I was going to put something on the computer that hasn't been on a home computer since 1988: a usable expansion port!!
21:35:59 <kc5tja> I'm thinking something along the lines of the Commodore 64 User Port.
21:36:36 <proteusguy> haha uh oh - what's wrong with usb?
21:36:43 <kc5tja> Nothing.
21:36:56 <kc5tja> It's likely to have USB too, now that I found a truely Intel-independent USB host controller chip.
21:37:50 <kc5tja> In fact, I'm seriously considering getting rid of the PS/2 ports, serial ports (except for 1, maybe bit-banged by the CPU instead of using a dedicated UART), and parallel port in favor of a handful of USB ports.
21:38:34 <proteusguy> I like it. I'd drop all but the USB and maybe a firewire if it were a higher speed cpu.
21:38:56 <kc5tja> Heheh, I'll save that for a MIPS-based ForthBox.  :)
21:39:13 <kc5tja> Or maybe a MISC-based ForthBox running on sufficiently high-speed hardware.  :D
21:39:27 <proteusguy> Any non-standard bus will never get a device made for it. USB will have all kinds of existing devices to support.
21:39:40 <kc5tja> The User Port isn't a bus.
21:40:03 <kc5tja> It's just a handful of raw I/O ports from an I/O interface chip brought verbatim to the port connector.
21:40:06 <proteusguy> I like some of the PowerPC options these days.
21:40:49 <proteusguy> oic - for device control or A/D type stuff?
21:40:56 <kc5tja> The problem with using RISC chips these days is that you *have* to have some kind of Northbridge chip to interface SDRAM to the CPU, ROM, PCI slots/devices, etc.
21:41:15 <kc5tja> proteusguy: yeah, so you can just wire up some arbitrary piece of hardware, and slap it together, and have it "just work."
21:41:29 <kc5tja> No auto-config needed, because there is only one user port (and hence, it's configuration can be fixed).
21:42:55 <proteusguy> But its so easy to slap usb on a device these days...
21:43:06 <kc5tja> USB devices require intelligence to make.
21:43:18 <kc5tja> You can't make a $0.50 piece of electronics and still be USB compliant.
21:43:38 <proteusguy> just a few bucks.
21:43:45 <kc5tja> Just won't happen; the device needs a CPU on its own, it requires the slave controller chip, it requires autoconfiguration information to be stored in EEPROM, etc.
21:43:59 <kc5tja> There is also the issue of latency.
21:44:14 <kc5tja> You can't just poke at an I/O register to affect a change in an I/O bit.
21:44:28 <kc5tja> You have to send a complete command to the user, which takes 1ms one-way, let alone its acknowledgement.
21:44:41 <kc5tja> (if it produces such an acknowledgement that is)
21:45:02 <kc5tja> Again, USB is fine if you're dealing with an intelligent device.
21:45:05 <proteusguy> I've seen some cheap AtMel devices get USB plugs working. Kinda cool.
21:45:31 <kc5tja> What I'm looking for is 16 or 24 software controllable I/O pins that I can bit-bang with the host CPU.
21:45:49 <kc5tja> Then I can hook up any arbitrary piece of electronics I choose to build for it.
21:46:11 <kc5tja> I don't need to include intelligence in the hardware device, which means less debugging work for me.
21:47:36 <proteusguy> I take an alternate tack - higher level components glued into raw devices. Makes my software easier and software is inevitably the hard part.
21:48:31 <kc5tja> Bit-banging will have to be done at some point or another *anyway*.  I may as well skip the middle-man of having to configure a USB slave controller, then write/debug code for a foreign processor environment, burn ROMs, et. al.
21:48:38 <kc5tja> Just a major, major, major hassle.
21:49:09 <kc5tja> Some devices truely warrent the use of USB.
21:49:37 <kc5tja> Keyboards, mice, printers, modems, etc -- these devices seem to do well with USB.
21:49:49 <proteusguy> or some other standard bus, yes - I was just thinking of something that also had lots of user devices already ready for it.
21:49:55 <kc5tja> But with homebrew electronics gear that are more often than not quick one-offs, then USB is way over-kill.
21:49:56 <proteusguy> yep
21:50:42 <kc5tja> Oh, yeah, I forgot: with USB, you have to register to get a unique USB device and mgr. id.  Uugh.
21:51:51 <proteusguy> Well there's test space as I recall.
21:52:01 <proteusguy> Only need that when you're going into production.
21:56:40 <Herkamire> kc5tja: sounds like very cool stuff.
21:56:49 <Herkamire> I like the i/o pins
21:57:35 <kc5tja> I'd have to call it the NERD port though.  :)
21:57:57 <kc5tja> New, Experimental, and Research and Development port. :)
21:58:09 <proteusguy> An acronym (I hope)?
21:58:15 <Herkamire> LOL
21:58:58 <proteusguy> There you go!
21:59:00 <Herkamire> I might buy something like that, if I thought I could program it from my computer
22:00:11 <kc5tja> Herkamire: Why couldn't you?  :)
22:00:22 <kc5tja> First, the ForthBox would have its own dialect of Forth on it.
22:00:25 <proteusguy> Why not the recursive name? Nerd Experiments in Research & Development
22:00:53 <kc5tja> Because I abhore recursive acronyms
22:01:24 <proteusguy> You could have your own license - the NERD license which requires all devices attached to the port to have a correct proscribed amount of blinking lights.
22:01:57 <proteusguy> Then you could scream about the bits wanting to be free and insist your not a commie.
22:02:41 <proteusguy> I like it. Grow your hair long enough and I'll go around flaming anyone who says anything bad about you.
22:02:43 <proteusguy> :P
22:02:57 <kc5tja> I used to have long hair.
22:03:00 * proteusguy cracks himself up.
22:03:01 <kc5tja> Now it's less than 1/8".
22:03:11 <proteusguy> damn ex-hippe
22:03:14 <proteusguy> hippie
22:03:23 <kc5tja> No, it's because I'm slowly moving into the realm of hardware design.  :)
22:03:24 <proteusguy> :)
22:03:32 <kc5tja> Long hairs do software, short-hairs do hardware.  See how that works?  :D
22:03:58 <kc5tja> (It also has a lot to do with both In-N-Out Burgers and with Aikido)
22:04:09 <proteusguy> Ah!! I knew I always wanted to do hardware. Just back in the day I couldn't afford the $100K needed in equipment so I programmed instead.
22:04:48 * kc5tja wants to get into software defined radios as a kit product.
22:05:11 <kc5tja> And no, I don't believe the 65816 will be able to compete in that field.  :D
22:05:26 <kc5tja> Hence the distinct possibility of a ForthBox II or maybe even a ForthBox III.  :)
22:05:42 <proteusguy> I see. Sounds cool.
22:07:10 <kc5tja> :)
22:07:53 <kc5tja> One of those systems will almost certainly be based on a PowerPC or MIPS processor.
22:08:02 * kc5tja really likes MIPS, even with the PowerPC being available.
22:08:06 <proteusguy> I gotta check into what kind of license I need for the marine radio.
22:08:16 <kc5tja> But I agree that the PowerPC might be a better choice for this application, since the PPC is virtually a DSP itself.
22:08:24 <proteusguy> Does MIPS have much future?
22:08:35 <kc5tja> Certainly.
22:08:39 <kc5tja> They're huge in the embedded industry.
22:08:58 <kc5tja> More people make MIPS clones than any other RISC processor architecture.
22:09:17 <proteusguy> Wasn't aware of what's new in that area. 
22:10:14 <kc5tja> MIPS as a company is also a heck of a lot more reliable than Motorola, and a heck of a lot cheaper than IBM, so PowerPC is at a disadvantage (supply or price) compared to MIPS for most embedded applications.
22:10:31 <chandler> there are some really cool MIPS processors out lately
22:10:43 <kc5tja> You'd really need to have a real need for PowerPC's enhanced performance clock-for-clock to justify the increased cost of a PowerPC.
22:11:21 <proteusguy> Any of my embedded stuff generally did.
22:12:29 <kc5tja> good grief, what kind of embedded stuff are you needing?
22:12:32 <chandler> kc5tja: have you seen this bad boy? http://www.pmc-sierra.com/products/details/rm9000x2/
22:12:44 <kc5tja> I can only think of very few apps that require PowerPC's raw power.
22:13:26 <proteusguy> Industrial controllers - tracking hundreds of devices at once over a custom proprietary bus. Hard real time even response.
22:15:00 <kc5tja> proteusguy: That can be done easily with a 68000 running at 8MHz.
22:15:18 <kc5tja> Most industrial controllers rarely exceed 16MHz.  :)
22:15:22 <chandler> depends on how fast the bus is, but that screams FPGA to me
22:15:28 <kc5tja> Not to me.
22:15:31 <Herkamire> kc5tja: I'm running linux on a Mac. with no serial port. that's what makes it hard to find programmers
22:15:35 <kc5tja> That just screams intelligent design to me.  :)
22:15:49 <chandler> ah. I'm a Lazy Software Bastard
22:15:56 <chandler> so I take programmable logic where I can :-)
22:15:56 <Herkamire> kc5tja: what does very short hair have to do with Aikido?
22:16:03 <kc5tja> Herkamire: The USB chip the ForthBox would use has 4 USB ports, one of which can be configured as a slave port.  You could talk to it via USB.
22:16:20 <Herkamire> kc5tja: very cool :)
22:16:22 <chandler> kc5tja: take a look at that mips that I pasted you
22:16:29 <kc5tja> chandler: Already did.
22:16:32 <proteusguy> No - not the processing we were doing. Lots of custom sorting algorithms that were different operation to operation. Very software intensive.
22:17:12 <kc5tja> Herkamire: When you have hair that goes down to the small of your back, you can easily see how rolling and complex techniques like irimi nage and various pinning arts can become potentially painful experiences.  :)
22:19:06 <kc5tja> proteusguy: I just can't see it, sorry.  How did your company do it before there was PowerPC or MIPS?
22:19:24 <proteusguy> DIdn't. It was the first of its kind.
22:19:32 * chandler is clearly the only one impressed with that mips processor
22:20:02 * proteusguy is just now getting the link...
22:20:27 <kc5tja> chandler: Well, I like it, but the site leaves me a bit confused.  Are you saying it has two MIPS cores, PLUS 512K of cache, PLUS...PLUS...PLUS...all on one chip?  The verbiage is ambiguous on some parts.
22:20:46 <chandler> kc5tja: that's correct, it's dual core on one chip... 256K L2 per proc
22:21:12 <kc5tja> And what is a packet cache, and how does that differ from a normal cache?  It seems awfully application specific.
22:21:19 <chandler> yes, that part does
22:21:29 <chandler> but 5W typical consumption... wow
22:21:38 <kc5tja> Yeah, that is pretty good.
22:21:45 <kc5tja> Do you know the voltage that it runs at?
22:23:25 <proteusguy> Cool - the eval board is an ATX form factor. Wonder what that costs?
22:23:37 <chandler> proteusguy: $3K last I talked to them
22:23:47 <chandler> er, my memory is a bit off
22:23:51 <chandler> I am not sure actually
22:24:00 <chandler> kc5tja: no I do not recall and their site seems to say nothing
22:24:36 <proteusguy> $3k - quite proud of that one. I guess I'm not too surprised.
22:24:46 <chandler> I think that number is a bit low
22:24:54 <chandler> but I might be mistaken
22:25:01 <chandler> eval boards are always expensive, you should know that :-)
22:25:52 <proteusguy> yes - but manufacturers have been getting more reasonable about that. At least making it cheap enough so that its not worth making your own.
22:25:59 <kc5tja> Yeah, they are produced in quantities less than 100 a piece, so definitely quite expensive.
22:28:26 <proteusguy> 3 x gigabit ethernet ports. Now I'm getting the idea of the intended use.
22:28:42 <chandler> yeah, that's what the scratch ram buffer is for
22:28:56 <chandler> broadcom produces a similar part
22:29:15 * kc5tja used to work for Hifn.
22:29:40 <kc5tja> Broadcom's arch-nemesis in this field (and thoroughly and unadulteratedly wiping the floor with Broadcom too)
22:29:42 <chandler> this thing would make a killer blade or 1U server though
22:30:05 <kc5tja> I know, I'll make the ForthBox II system around that chip.  >:)
22:30:20 <chandler> hehe... ForthBox II blades :D
22:30:27 <proteusguy> combo router/firewall/ids type box.
22:30:40 <kc5tja> THough, I have to admit, I don't look forward to kitting a device that has even one BGA, let alone two or three.
22:31:18 <chandler> kc5tja: I think you should postpone that for ForthBox III, and find a simpler MIPS for II :-)
22:31:39 <kc5tja> Oh, man, that's probably at least ForthBox V material there.
22:33:12 <proteusguy> good night folx - gotta work tomorrow.
22:33:22 <kc5tja> proteusguy: Night.  :)
22:33:57 --- nick: proteusguy -> proteus-away
22:34:32 <kc5tja> chandler: That's cool that the chip runs at 5W power.
22:34:41 <proteus-away> What does it mean when a channel says I may not change my nick? Had to dump it to change.
22:34:46 <kc5tja> I'm looking for a target power of 15W or less for the whole ForthBox I machine.
22:35:04 <kc5tja> proteus-away: ?
22:35:11 <kc5tja> Can you paste the error text?
22:35:30 <chandler> sounds like MIPS might be a good idea
22:35:52 <I440r> bga ?
22:35:55 <kc5tja> chandler: I lack the facilities to play with MIPS right now.
22:36:03 <kc5tja> I'm concentrating on simple, simple, simple, simple.
22:36:10 <kc5tja> I440r: Ball-Grid Array.
22:36:15 <I440r> broadcom are assholes
22:36:29 --- join: Nutssh (~Foo@gh-1177.gh.rice.edu) joined #forth
22:36:45 <chandler> kc5tja: hm. programmable logic? :D
22:36:54 <I440r> their wireless drivers are totally closed source and they flat refuse to give the specs to the linux developers
22:37:09 <I440r> there are no wireless dirvers for any broadcom devices
22:37:14 <kc5tja> chandler: I don't expect a lot of sales of this thing, if any at all.
22:37:20 <kc5tja> I can't justify the use of programmable logic in this case.
22:37:41 <chandler> ok
22:38:20 --- quit: Sonarman ("leaving")
22:38:44 <kc5tja> Otherwise, I'd love the challenge of building myself a dual 1GHz box.  :D
22:41:35 * Robert yawns.
23:03:16 <ree___> hey sleepy
23:03:19 --- nick: ree___ -> ree
23:06:29 * warpzero is away: Sigh.
23:10:57 --- quit: Herkamire ("getting too tired to program well.")
23:23:27 --- part: ree left #forth
23:23:28 --- quit: arke (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23:24:05 <kc5tja>  /clear
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/04.01.25