00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.01.12 00:20:48 --- join: schihei (~schihei@blueice1a.de.ibm.com) joined #forth 01:05:18 --- quit: schihei (Client Quit) 01:06:48 --- join: schihei (~schihei@blueice1a.de.ibm.com) joined #forth 01:42:31 --- join: Serg (~z@212.34.52.140) joined #forth 01:45:53 * ayrnieu writes a Forth program to generate a C program to generate some Forth constants from C headers. 01:51:24 --- quit: XeF4_ (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 02:08:22 ayrnieu: why so hard brain tie ? 02:08:39 er, what? =) 02:08:41 Forth is very good ;)) at text processing 02:09:08 oh, laziness. I don't want to touch C headers =) 02:09:27 why tie brains in a gallows knot by doing so multi-step thing ? 02:09:40 oh, not very difficult. I handle it with make 02:10:10 C headers -> Forth constants may be done easy 02:10:25 just : #define .... ; ;)) 02:10:27 I do this pretty simply =) 02:10:52 I'd have to deal with #ifdefs and such, which takes me into the world of default defines. 02:11:03 #ifdef _sanity_check 02:11:12 where the C compiler always defines that =) 02:12:02 :(( C is obfu..ted ASM :(( 02:14:18 anyway, i nearly wrote TEX-like thing in Forth, just a few pages 02:14:21 Privet, Serg :) 02:14:30 i dropped it coz lack of motivatin 02:14:37 hi rob_ert ;)) 02:15:07 now it lays in a far corner of my HDD, _very_ undebugged and uncomplete 02:15:49 if anyone interested really, i may undig it ;)) 02:16:02 Oh, right.. I'm still rob_ert 02:16:45 * Serg today goes to radio store to buy parts 4 my regen RX ;)) 02:16:54 :D 02:17:01 I've ordered some stuff too... 02:17:08 And yesterday I built myself a really cheap SWR meter :P 02:17:08 what stuff ? 02:17:17 SWR ?? 02:17:33 Serg: Just mixed components and stuff.. to build different projects. 02:18:09 Serg: Yes.. isn't it right that the reflected energy is proportional to the voltage induced squared? 02:18:46 i gonna make xtremely easy one-transistor RX ;)) ABC crystal set of XXI :)) 02:19:09 rob_ert: o, yeah, SWR = antenna match meter ? 02:19:58 we here call is KSW - koefficient of standing wave (1st letters sound just like RU ones) 02:20:40 Yes 02:20:42 it meters how much of power kicks back, risking to burn PA ;)) 02:21:10 Right.. but in this case my PA is a 100mW one ;) 02:21:23 And I got quite a nice SWR with a loading coil. 02:21:27 unlic ? or got callsign ? 02:22:01 The back voltage was 20% of the fwd voltage, wouldn't that correspond to like 4-5% reflected energy? 02:22:08 No, I was just testing 02:22:16 But I should get the callsign soon 02:22:25 I passed the test before christmas. 02:22:32 About a month ago now. 02:23:03 --- quit: Serg (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 02:23:21 --- join: Serg (~z@212.34.52.140) joined #forth 02:27:49 re 02:28:02 rob_ert: got callsign ? 02:28:34 11:22:08 < rob_ert> No, I was just testing 02:28:34 11:22:15 < rob_ert> But I should get the callsign soon 02:28:34 11:22:25 < rob_ert> I passed the test before christmas. 02:28:34 11:22:31 < rob_ert> About a month ago now. 02:28:51 I'll let you know when I get one. ;) 02:28:58 ok, i just glitched out ;)) 02:29:06 SW bands ? 02:29:25 * Serg will go to a local collective station to make a QSO ;)) 02:29:58 :) 02:30:08 what TX power you'll be allowed ? 02:30:10 Yes, they're skipping the license classes here 02:30:17 1kW on most bands 02:30:24 oooops ? 02:30:33 what class of licence - novice ??? 02:30:40 There will be only one class. 02:30:57 here we have 4 classes 02:31:24 4 - novice - 10 W at 180m + 144MHz + some UHF 02:31:39 1 - expert - 200W all SW bands + many more 02:32:04 1kW to novice ... brrr 1 02:32:09 Serg: :D 02:32:12 Serg: That 02:32:15 Serg: That's what kc5tja said too 02:32:43 Serg: But they have to take the same tests as everyone else now. 02:33:06 it's a bull$hit ;(( 02:33:28 i wanna 5 class, ultra novice : all bands 100mW ;)) 02:33:37 Heh 02:33:42 Right... 02:34:23 it's UNFAIR ;(( 02:34:40 Poor Serg.. 02:35:07 everythere, it must be gradual steps of grouth.... 02:35:42 Serg: The only difference between the license classes was a 5wpm CW test 02:35:56 Serg: So there isn't really any large change 02:36:22 ;((( here class 4 - no CW, 3 - 5 WPM, 1 class - damn fast, not sure for number 02:36:45 What can a class 3 amateur do? 02:36:47 class 4 - CW allowed but no exam 02:36:53 How many bands? What power? 02:36:57 dunno remember 02:36:59 may look 02:37:04 Nah, don't bother. 02:41:32 http://www.srr.ru/DOCUMENTS/SUPPLS/suppl1.html , lotsa RU 02:42:53 10 W, MHz: 3.5 , 21, 28 02:43:06 5 W : 1.8, VHF, UFH 02:43:24 CW: 30 char per minute, ~5-6 wpm 02:44:31 Do you have any longwave amateur bands? 02:45:08 Like we have 136kH 02:45:09 khZ 02:45:13 kHz* 02:45:37 --- join: karingo (karingo@154.portland-01-03rs.or.dial-access.att.net) joined #forth 02:45:38 Hmm..interesting 02:45:51 You have seperate AM/SSB bands 02:46:04 Here we have just "phone" and "CW". 02:46:16 So you can use AM or SSB on the phone bands. 02:46:21 Hi karingo 02:50:34 7 MHZ - only from 2 class, 60 cpm CW, 50 W all bands ex for 1.8 and U(V)HF - 5 W 02:50:58 It's funny that your class 4 amateurs have access to 160m 02:51:10 Here they used to have access to 2m and higher only 02:51:15 AM is deprecated by hams but still allowed by gov 02:51:28 AM is considered BAD 02:51:34 Yes, I know 02:51:48 But some people still use it... 02:51:56 so u can hardly hear AM on ham bands, just disregard it 02:52:27 just ignore them, or tell them how it's BAD in every QSO 02:52:36 I'd like to build an AM rig though ;) 02:52:42 Just because it's so simple. 02:53:24 But of course, it might be a good idea to NOT use it on 20m ;) 02:53:51 Anyway.. I have a class now 02:53:53 See you! 03:03:33 --- quit: karingo (""I'll be back."--tuxmp") 03:12:54 Does anyone know where I can find the StringStack library? I still can't reach www.forthfreak.net 03:26:39 first hear ;( 03:47:50 * chandler needs to check out the local ham club's station 03:52:27 Well, I've written enough of a networking library for gforth that I can implement a hello server =) 03:54:23 I'll play with tasker.fs to get an echo server tomorrow, and then maybe post something to clf. 03:55:41 write a web server :-) 04:30:21 * rob_ert returns. 04:31:53 re 04:33:00 Hey :) 04:33:48 rob_ert: what was 1st radio thing you built ? 04:34:02 Pirate FM transmitter ;) 04:34:43 power ? 04:38:18 * Serg never built anything, only repairs and unfinished stuff 04:38:39 Serg: Not much, probably less than 100mW. 04:40:42 range ? 04:40:47 * Serg is interested 04:41:10 Uhm.. 04:41:24 A few 100 meters. 04:41:37 few hundred ? nice ! 04:42:05 It's pretty simple. Maybe 4x4 centimeters on a piece of experiment board 04:42:32 Less..2*4 cm :) 04:42:48 hmm.. here's no listeners for my station ;) 04:43:04 all like mob's hits, no one likes good old music 04:43:11 :) 04:43:18 I used it to communicate with a neighbour 04:43:30 and stock FM RX ? 04:43:32 I spoke in the microphone, and he wrote on IRC to me :D 04:43:48 Yes, he used a normal FM radio 04:43:53 why not speak over net ? 04:44:49 We were just playing. 04:44:55 ;) 04:45:37 a friend of mine made phone on keychain lasers, between tech rooms on neighbour buildings 04:46:25 Cool 04:46:55 I'll try to build a little bit more useful SWR meter now. 04:46:58 first he used AM, next ... some weird combined AM/FM 04:47:34 AM/FM/Pulsewidth ;)) 04:47:56 it used pulses of same width, .... 04:48:21 on lo wave they came rarely : ^...................^...................^ 04:48:54 so both AM detector (backward compatibility :) and 'counting' FM detector got lo-wave 04:49:20 on hi-wave, they came often: ^.^.^.^.^. 04:49:57 of course, FM version had a limiter 04:50:24 to avoid AM noise (from dust, rain, distortion etc...) 05:00:44 :) 05:00:51 So..now it works. 05:01:01 This LED is bright at high SWR ratios 05:01:16 And almost dark at low ones (below like 2:1) 05:06:08 LED ?? why not scale thing ? 05:07:53 I don't have any. 05:08:01 And an LED is cheaper 05:08:29 I can easily see if there's an acceptable SWR 05:08:53 Well, I'll add something to calibrate it with later. 05:09:09 Now it will burn if you run more than 100mW or so through it ;) 05:17:58 u can rip scale thing from old dead tape recorder or kinda like this ;)) 05:18:23 or make your SWR meter as just add-on to scale measuring device 05:18:31 e.g. use it's scale 05:41:08 --- join: hovil (~hovil@CommSecureAustPtyLtd.sb1.optus.net.au) joined #forth 05:42:08 --- join: qFox (C00K13S@cp12172-a.roose1.nb.home.nl) joined #forth 06:17:12 --- join: I440r (~mark4@saturn.vcsd.com) joined #forth 06:42:03 --- join: downix (~downix@adsl-34-197-181.bct.bellsouth.net) joined #forth 06:42:28 hi I440r ! 06:42:34 hi all others ;)) 06:43:23 Hey I440r, Serg and others 06:46:51 * Serg just listed what radio parts to buy ;) 06:47:55 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 06:48:54 Serg: A bunch of large vacuum tubes? ;) 06:49:26 Morning 06:49:48 rob_ert: What's so unusual about a bunch of large vacuum tubes? I have a box of them at my feet 06:52:05 downix: Nothing, but that's what I think of when I hear about a russian radio station. 06:52:18 hehe 06:52:28 or a russian fighter jet 06:52:32 (and I'm not kidding there) 06:52:33 :D 06:52:47 Mine are for preamp and amps 06:53:15 A guy over here (Sweden) told me about how he, during the second world war, tried to use vacuum tubes in bombs. 06:53:31 Together with a microphone, to record enemy flight noise. 06:53:42 So that they could explode near those planes 06:54:14 Can't appreciate transistors enough ;) 06:54:29 * downix nods 06:55:13 I'm too young for having used vacuum tubes though, but they seem primtive enough to be interesting. 06:55:20 But now - Simpsons. 06:56:04 vacuum tubes have their places, in musical equiptment 06:56:50 bye ! 06:56:52 --- quit: Serg () 06:58:15 downix, only for people with too much money 06:58:25 who need to be relieved of it through gimmickry 06:59:04 * arke is away: School 06:59:12 * hovil shuts up 06:59:45 not having heard them I shouldn't really criticise 07:00:00 Musicians are an eccentric lot 07:00:08 let them be eccentric 07:01:31 I'd like to build my own amplifier one day 07:02:30 I've built several 07:02:32 it is fun 07:02:48 and ya know what, the tubes ones do sound better than the ones running cheap transistors 07:02:59 but try finding high-grade transistors nowadays 07:03:17 hehe, theres a lot of things like that I want to build come to think of it 07:03:33 due to everything on the market being built with the mindset of replacement in < 5 years 07:03:37 no quality parts 07:03:41 so on and so on 07:04:24 is there still a demand for vacuum tubes outside of high end audio? 07:04:53 not really 07:04:58 er, wait 07:04:59 Not really 07:05:03 ignore that, I'm at school. 07:05:09 ^__^ 07:46:49 --- quit: tathi (brunner.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 07:49:15 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 08:12:03 --- quit: schihei (Client Quit) 08:46:12 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@66-91-231-74.san.rr.com) joined #forth 08:46:12 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja 08:47:57 FS/Forth's internal architecture is getting complex enough to warrent more complete documentation now. 08:49:40 hey Sam 08:50:16 Howdy 08:55:04 I'm working on FS/Forth's text interpreter at the moment. 08:55:24 Most Forth's have their interpreters coded something similarly to this: 08:55:47 : interpret BEGIN ParseWord FIND IF EXECUTE ELSE NUMBER THEN AGAIN ; 08:56:16 Then NUMBER is defined as a word which, if it fails to convert the word into a number, prints a diagnostic, like "? Not Found" (meaning word not found). 08:56:27 I originally thought this method was easier. 08:56:54 Now, however, I'm finding that 99% of the interpreter's job is being performed by the dictionary search routines which, if they fail, just drop right into the numeric conversion routines. 08:57:02 So what i'm thinking of doing is changing my Forth's architecture to this: 08:57:33 : interpreter word interpreter ; ( note tail-call recursion establishes an infinite loop ) 08:57:47 : word ParseWord classify jump: number xt undefined ; 08:57:57 here jump: is a word that forms the core logic of a jump table. 08:58:29 classify, then, is the one word that classifies a word, and returns one of three results: (caddr u 2 | xt 1 | n 0), where the last number is used to index into the jump table. 08:58:38 Then number, xt, and undefined are trivially implemented. 08:59:44 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@h000094d30ba2.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 09:00:32 Herkamire: You just missed my recent postings on FS/Forth's text interpreter system. 09:01:11 kc5tja: I'll check the logs :) 09:01:19 --- quit: Herkamire (Client Quit) 09:01:46 He quit, so he can check logs? No multitasking? Egads. :) 09:02:03 At least it's unambiguous as to whether he's at keyboard or not. 09:05:39 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@h000094d30ba2.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 09:07:17 ahh much better. now irssi automatically connects to bitlbee 09:07:35 bitlbee? 09:12:07 irc proxy which connects you to AIM 09:12:47 you run server locally, and connect with irc client. when you IDENTIFY it connects to your IM accounts (jabber, yahoo, AIM, ICQ, msn) 09:12:56 now that is cool! 09:12:59 all with IRC? 09:13:02 (well, with an IRC client) 09:13:17 you can have IMs come in as /msg or as people talking in the #bitlbee channel 09:13:25 yess all irc 09:13:29 URL? 09:13:33 (just because I don't wanna google) :) 09:13:36 it uses the gaim protocol plugins :) 09:14:01 w00t 09:14:06 I love gaim 09:14:14 I hate SeanEgan and PacoPaco though 09:14:17 http://www.bitlbee.org/ 09:15:45 it runs under inetd/tcpserver so you don't have to leave it running all the time to have it ready to go when you startup your irc client. 09:17:54 hehe :) just reading logs. don't know why my quit message didn't register... I said I was reconfiguring BRB 09:20:36 kc5tja: that parser stuff looks very cool 09:21:19 I really like the jump: keyword 09:21:22 Well, I was writing in my notebook the code that mimicks the nested-if solution. 09:21:50 I realized that it's just one test after another, and there is no need for nested IFs in the interpreter loop, because they already exist in the search/conversion code. 09:22:05 So I figured I'd just return a suitable sentinel, and eliminate the other nested if construct in the interpreter itself. 09:22:10 It turns out to be vastly more useful this way too. 09:22:53 The only thing I cannot do is expand it to support both the Forth and Compiler wordlists, because the Compiler wordlist would shadow out the Forth wordlist every time. 09:23:14 But for the colon compiler, I can make a wrapper around classify that first checks the compiler wordlist, and if not there, just "drops into" classify. 09:23:44 Especially since classify itself is already built to "drop into" NUMBER if a word in the Forth dictionary isn't found, and NUMBER "drops into" undefined if the word isn't a number as well. 09:23:58 I did a similar rethink, but ended up making it less flexible. I'm going to look back at my code and see if I need to make a word/classify thing that will return something like yours 09:26:14 I felt really silly having if constructs in a word, that just put a token on the stack, then having another set of if constructs to do the appropriate actions based on the token 09:26:37 Herkamire: That's why I have jump:. 09:26:53 My IF constructs to place the token on the stack, but the technique is pretty useless without jump:. 09:27:22 so I just moved the code for the token states inside the ifs where I put the token on the stack (so instead of setting tokens, it just executed the code) problem is that this is completely inflexible, and I can't use that version of find in anything but the interpreter. 09:27:43 yeah, I really like jump: 09:27:43 Herkamire: Yes, this is what my code was ending up doing. 09:27:57 Then I realized, wait....there is a better, more flexible, more re-usable way. :) 09:29:01 I just have to figure out how to get branch instructions instead of call instructions for the words in the jump table 09:29:47 I was thinking of some ways to use jump tables, but I couldn't figure out how to make it elegant 09:29:55 Herkamire: My system ignores the opcode. 09:30:25 jump: itself looks into the vector table, extracts the effective address from the jump/call instruction (remember my ; turns the last CALL into a JMP instruction), and directly branches to it. 09:30:44 : jump: 5 * R> + 1+ @ >abs >R ; 09:31:06 where >abs converts the IP-relative address into an absolute address. 09:31:52 CALL instructions are 5 bytes wide? 09:32:12 I could do something like that 09:32:37 Herkamire: x86 has byte-sized opcodes, remember? 09:32:59 $e8 c,
HERE 4 + - , (where HERE 4 + - converts the address to an IP-relative address) 09:33:41 x86 has 32 bits for a _relative_ address? 09:33:56 if it's 32 bits, then why the heck is it relative? 09:34:05 anyway 09:34:12 Herkamire: Because its code is position independent. 09:34:44 yeah, I've been trying to keep my code position independent. 09:34:53 Herkamire: Only variable references need a global object table for writing position independent code, and even then, that can be eliminated with some tricks. 09:34:59 not sure I'm ever going to move it... but I figure if it's just as easy, why not 09:35:20 And yes, all 32-bits are relative, which lets it address the entire 4GB address space if you wanted to. 09:35:23 --- join: rob_ert_ (~snofs@c-705a71d5.17-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) joined #forth 09:35:36 Anyway, I gotta get ready for work. 09:36:03 32bit relative is +-2GB 09:36:03 --- quit: rob_ert (Nick collision from services.) 09:36:08 --- nick: rob_ert_ -> rob_ert 09:36:19 Herkamire: Which lets it address all 4GB, since the EIP register is only 32-bits. :D 09:36:44 oh, it wraps around 09:36:45 right 09:36:47 Anyway, here's the full definition of jump: as I currently have it. 09:36:50 that's amusing 09:37:04 : jump: 5 * r> + 1+ dup @ swap 4 + + >r ; 09:37:49 OK, I'm off -- I need to get ready for work. If I have time, I'll be back. Otherwise, I won't. :) 09:37:51 cool. 09:37:56 * kc5tja is away: SSS... 09:40:21 --- join: rob_ert_ (~snofs@c-705a71d5.17-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) joined #forth 09:47:48 --- join: schihei (~schihei@pD9E5CA59.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 09:48:27 --- quit: rob_ert (Nick collision from services.) 09:48:34 --- nick: rob_ert_ -> rob_ert 10:01:41 --- join: rob_ert_ (~snofs@c-705a71d5.17-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) joined #forth 10:06:54 * kc5tja is back (gone 00:28:57) 10:09:53 --- quit: rob_ert (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 10:10:15 --- nick: rob_ert_ -> rob_ert 10:14:20 kc5tja: I would do: : jump-> 4 * r> + dup @ ppc>addr-bits + >r ; 10:15:19 If I make the tokens in the branch table branches insteaf of CALLs I can just do: : jump-> 4 * r> + r> ; 10:16:08 I'm not sure your definition of jump-> would work. 10:16:33 I get 4a+pc+offset, where 4a is the index*4, pc is the instruction of the branch, and offset is the offset of the branch instruction. 10:16:54 In other words, your effective address will be off by a factor of 4a. 10:17:03 err, by just 4a rather; not by a factor of it. 10:17:19 I thought I might need to add "4 +" in there 10:17:39 Well, your branch instruction already will point to the proper address, considering also its PC address. 10:18:24 I'm still trying to see if this would work. 10:19:02 Oh, ok, it will work. 10:19:18 (4a+pc) is the instruction's effective PC. 10:19:20 hmm... I don't mine is any good 10:19:34 there's two ways I could do it and I got them mixed and did something inbetween 10:19:55 I forgot that pc is always the 0th element's address, not necessarily the desired element's address. 10:20:08 So 4a+pc is correct. 10:21:17 Anyway, I have to get to work. Be back around 5:30 to 6PM or so. 10:21:25 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK") 12:10:19 --- join: schihei_ (~schihei@pD9E5CD05.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 12:28:08 --- quit: schihei (Client Quit) 12:30:20 --- quit: hovil ("Leaving") 12:30:27 hi 4thers 12:34:07 --- quit: schihei_ (Client Quit) 12:54:43 --- join: tathi_ (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 13:03:16 --- quit: tathi (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 13:03:45 --- quit: tathi_ ("leaving") 13:04:01 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 13:09:32 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 13:27:27 --- quit: proteusguy ("Leaving") 13:32:32 --- join: crc (~crc@ACAFE7F5.ipt.aol.com) joined #forth 13:36:05 --- quit: crc (Client Quit) 13:56:45 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 13:58:05 --- quit: tathi (Client Quit) 13:58:53 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 14:31:24 --- quit: rob_ert ("brb") 14:33:05 --- quit: mur ("Changing server") 14:33:34 --- join: Robert (~snofs@c-705a71d5.17-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) joined #forth 15:30:04 --- join: blockhead (default@dialin-621-tnt.nyc.bestweb.net) joined #forth 15:31:24 --- quit: scope ("leaving") 15:32:20 --- join: scope (junk@njd.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth 15:40:26 * arke is back (gone 08:41:25) 15:40:52 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 15:47:27 --- join: Sonarman (~matt@adsl-64-169-94-172.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 15:47:57 hiya Sonarman 15:48:03 heya arke 15:48:11 Sonarman: can i hax0r you please? 15:48:54 y3s but you must use a buffer overrun in the kernel 15:51:04 Well, what's your IP? 15:51:15 and what kernel version? 15:51:16 you mean you can't subpoena SBC? 15:51:41 64.169.94.172 15:52:00 i am sorry i forgot to tell you 15:52:27 devusb@supermac devusb $ 15:52:27 . 15:52:29 I'm in! 15:52:52 er, do that again, i cleared right when you did it 15:53:32 erk, how did you do that? you have neither talk nor tail... 15:53:38 s/tail/ytalk 15:53:51 write 15:56:01 How do I know what *ty's your logged on to? 15:56:18 who 15:57:01 use pts/5 if you want to write me 16:04:01 write: /dev/pts/5: No such file or directory 16:04:06 HAW 16:04:18 how about /msg? :-) 16:06:37 --- join: I440r (~mark4@12-160.lctv-a5.cablelynx.com) joined #forth 16:07:05 hi I440r 16:07:12 hi :) 16:07:16 hi I440r ! 16:07:25 :) 16:07:33 scope - you learned forth yet ? 16:07:36 :) 16:07:55 nope 16:08:00 lol 16:08:05 Then what are you waiting for? 16:08:12 can i make an isforth ebuild ? 16:08:19 i had a go at learning it Robert 16:08:24 too much for me to take in :p 16:08:27 Try harder! 16:08:28 :) 16:08:30 you could but where would it install to 16:08:39 you CANT make it install to /bin 16:08:39 /usr/bin ? 16:08:42 why not 16:08:45 im thinking /opt 16:08:49 nope 16:09:01 why not */bin? 16:09:07 the problem nis that the forth executable is dynamic 16:09:11 it changes 16:09:18 hm 16:09:26 you recompile the kernel as per YOUR needs 16:09:29 then /opt/bin ? 16:09:31 so you need to have write access to the executable? 16:09:53 or something? 16:09:53 every user needs to be able to both re-metacompile the kernel AND re-extend 16:10:07 however there should be a master version of the kernel somewhere 16:10:19 and only root should be able to rebuild that version 16:10:42 chmod it 777 ? lol 16:10:46 the problem with an ebuild at the moment is that isforth CANNOT recompile itself yet 16:10:51 no not 777. devinatly not 16:10:55 i know ;) 16:11:05 and you need to have isforth in order to compile it 16:11:16 so the ebuild will have to have TWO seperate packages 16:11:22 what's the point of /opt ? 16:11:26 never really played with it 16:11:28 the default executables in one and the sources in another 16:12:13 im not totally sure about that, the FSH doesnt say much about /opt 16:12:23 fhs i mean 16:13:41 2863 quotes pending <--- bash is lagging 16:14:11 quotes ? 16:14:42 dont quote me unless it makes me sound smart :P 16:15:06 i hope the admins haven't gotten a life 16:15:12 *lives 16:15:20 admines where ? 16:15:33 at bash.org :) 16:16:29 oh hehe 16:17:26 yeah, that would such.' 16:17:27 suck* 16:28:57 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 16:37:13 --- join: rO| (rO_@pD9E5935E.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 16:38:52 --- quit: scope ("leaving") 16:40:56 --- quit: chandler ("Reconnecting") 16:40:57 --- join: chandler (chandler@64-145-60-36.client.dsl.net) joined #forth 16:56:31 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 17:17:11 --- quit: qFox ("if at first you dont succeed, quit again") 17:45:11 Does anyone have a wiki that I could upload a gforth library to? I won't have time for it for a while. 17:45:48 you could probably do it at the kristopherjohnson.net wiki 17:46:02 or forthfreak.net maybe? 17:46:05 Yeah, but I don't want to put it there. 17:46:17 I still don't see forthfreaok. 17:46:19 also, forthfreak. 17:46:21 me neither 17:46:35 hmm, yeah, I've had sporadic DNS problems with it. 17:46:49 ayrnieu: send it to yourself as an email attachment, and keep it like that 17:47:10 but i wast to see it :) 17:47:12 wnat 17:47:13 want 17:47:31 arke - I don't worry about losing it, but thanks. 17:47:46 hmm www.forthfreak.net is working for me all of a sudden 17:48:16 you could always get one at www.swiki.net 17:48:30 heh. Looks like I put forthfreak in my hosts file. 17:56:30 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@66-91-231-74.san.rr.com) joined #forth 17:56:30 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja 17:57:44 he still hasn't fixed the DNS issues? 17:58:18 no idea 17:58:41 before it wasn't working for me, and now it does 18:01:26 those forthfreak issues come from the provider afaik. there are several routes out, the newest and fastest is still flaky 18:03:47 ping kc5tja 18:03:56 Howdy 18:04:17 that was fast.. :-) 18:04:26 I just finished reading my e-mail. 18:05:17 I think www.forthfreak.net is supposed to work, and he doesn't really care about forthfreak.net 18:05:47 I guess it's a good thing that falvotech.com hosts my FS/Forth website then, eh? :) 18:06:33 rO|: I didn't get what you meant by Evolutional Computing in the context of UserIllusion. Can you clarify? 18:06:34 Herkamire: I can't even get IP addresses for the nameservers listed for the forthfreak.net domain. 18:07:33 kc5tja: transparent versioning the path from simple to complex 18:07:33 ns1.logilan.de has address 213.133.108.8 18:07:42 ns2.logilan.de has address 217.160.130.115 18:07:45 there you go, tathi :) 18:07:47 MysticOne: yeah, I know what the addresses are 18:07:55 ummm... 18:07:56 kc5tja: my mom wants me to take some martial arts or such ... she says if i take taek won do we'll get a discount ... what's your opinion on this? 18:07:58 that's not what you said :) 18:08:15 arke: Don't just take Tae Kwon Do because your brother takes it. 18:08:24 If you do, you actually run the risk of hurting yourself. Seriously. 18:08:30 The reason is, not every art is suitable for every person. 18:08:31 oh, sorry. I can't look them up. I have them saved from one point when I could. 18:08:38 Your mom needs to understand this. 18:08:41 arke - I've heard good things about Aikido. 18:08:42 kc5tja: heh 18:08:46 I'm not kidding. 18:08:46 tathi: oh, okay ... I was like "Umm, but you just aid you couldn't get them!" :) 18:08:50 TKD is a *dangerous* art. 18:09:02 --- part: blockhead left #forth 18:09:15 It's a good art, but it's dangerous in two ways: one, you can kill someone easily with it -- a swift kick to someone's jaw can break their neck. 18:09:15 eek 18:09:32 Two, and somewhat related, many TKD training halls have MASSIVE ego problems. 18:09:44 Talk to the instructor, talk to the students personally. 18:09:48 Watch how they behave. 18:09:52 arke: definately don't take TKD unless you are really into it 18:09:53 Watch their body language. 18:09:59 It says more than anything that comes out of their mouth. 18:10:17 kc5 - what body language would interest you? 18:10:23 If they seem like morons in ANY way, or if they seem like they're a bunch of bad-asses, don't take the art there. 18:10:29 bouncing hoo-hoos ;) 18:10:29 ayrnieu: Everything. 18:10:31 How they walk. 18:10:33 How they talk. 18:10:37 Their facial expressions. 18:10:39 Their hand movements. 18:10:44 How eager they are to "demonstrate." 18:10:50 And more. 18:11:04 * MysticOne likes nice, gentle women with sexy curves and jiggly spots in the right places ... yep, that's good body language 18:11:18 just if they're trying to 1up eachother all the time 18:11:27 heh 18:11:36 Aikido is nice because it's non-competitive. Hence, people with egos generally tend to get filtered out really fast. 18:11:38 kc5 - I mean, what patterns would mean what, to you? 18:11:39 TKD is very much competitive. 18:12:02 ayrnieu: Well, if a student struts, instead of walks in a relaxed posture, it's a good sign that he's full of himself. 18:12:05 yes. TKD is a tournament art 18:12:22 MysticOne lol.. 18:12:42 just watch a class and see if people are nice to eachother 18:12:44 ayrnieu: If they're overly eager to demonstrate, even if they promise not to hurt or go slow, it's a good sign they have "Teacher's Disease," where the student is more interested in teaching than in learning -- this symptom is usually a sign of a poor instructor. 18:13:22 kc5tja: quite simplified answer. may get you an idea though 18:13:28 If the student keeps an eye on you at all times, or holds a constant facial expression, it's a sign he doesn't trust you. 18:13:28 oh, I never would've thought of that. 18:13:30 Etc. 18:14:00 3:17am here. taking a rest now 18:14:02 rO|: That's why I said "usually." Of course, no stereotype is 100% correct all the time. 18:14:29 Watch especially how the senior students treat the junior students. 18:14:35 Watch how they treat the instructor. 18:14:51 hehe 18:14:51 Too much formalism implies, to me at least, a bit of brainwashing going on. 18:15:02 Proper respect is always a good thing. 18:15:12 my brother's instructor is the "2002 world champion of American TKD Association" 18:15:29 But when the U.S. Marine Corps Boot Camp starts to look like a more hospitable place, then something's wrong. 18:15:40 Awards mean nothing. 18:16:01 yup 18:16:01 Well, he advertises it lots 18:16:04 i guess you're completely right then 18:16:10 he's full of himself 18:16:10 :D 18:16:20 My current sensei in Aikido is one of three west-coast teaching committee members. My former sensei is the senior teaching committee member. 18:16:40 I also look at how quickly black belts are given. 18:16:55 In Aikido, one gets a blackbelt typically only after 6 to 8 years of training. 18:17:17 And that's considered fast even by Japanese standards. 18:17:31 kc5tja: apropos tkd. wanting to be strong and fierce means not be, right ;-) 18:17:34 Well, let me restate: it's considered fast even by Jujutsu standards. 18:17:34 and presumably you don't learn Aikido for the belt =) 18:17:38 ok nighties.. 18:17:50 rO|: I'm sorry -- I don't understand you. 18:18:08 ayrnieu: No. I have no particular interest in the belt. 18:18:17 My interest in the belt stems from one thing only: I'd like to teach aikido. 18:18:45 Aikido has done so much for me -- it's improved my balance (physically), it's enabled me to spot and take advantage of opportunities more in society, it's enabled me to be a generally better person. 18:18:53 kc5tja: let's save that for later, ok? /me needs rest 18:19:03 rO|: Go to bed, dang it. :D 18:19:33 --- nick: rO| -> rO|afk 18:19:35 Every martial art has that tendency of course, but Aikido is particularly effective in that area because it is a do -- a way. 18:19:47 do in Japanese == Tao in Chinese. 18:20:32 kc5tja: I would asume that aikido has given you more balance mentally too 18:20:36 The martial aspect of aikido, even though derived from the deadliest of Japanese battle field techniques (aiki-jujutsu), is secondary to the philosophy. 18:20:57 Herkamire: Yeah, but I drift off. It's not "stable" in me yet. But I've only been training for 3 years. 18:21:02 And I've had a lot of off-time too. 18:21:30 kc5 - how much have you generally paid for Aikido training? 18:21:38 I've only now reached the stage where I can truely grok only one of its fundamentals: the concept of space, and not being there. :) 18:22:11 I typically pay $65/month for my former training. I'm now paying about half that, because my school schedule lets me go only one day a week. 18:22:16 I don't think I've totalled 12 months of training yet. 18:22:31 wow. hm. 18:22:36 I grok falling and rolling. 18:22:37 Good grief -- I'm a sensei to Herkamire. That's scary. :D 18:22:48 Herkamire: That's not grokking aikido though. 18:22:59 That's like grokking @ and ! in Forth, but that doesn't mean you know Forth. :) 18:23:09 nope. falling/rolling is not a fundamental 18:23:26 Ukemi is, however, precisely what makes aikido so dang fun to do. :) 18:23:37 hehe :) 18:23:45 Seriously. 18:23:49 In Aikido, I don't go to throw. 18:23:51 I go to be thrown. 18:24:19 And I think that's where the competitive versus noncompetitive folks split in their fundamental views of martial arts. 18:24:30 cool 18:24:31 The competitive folks are interested in breaking, destroying, rupturing, rending, . . . 18:24:33 I wanna be thrown 18:24:38 I'm not interested in any of these things. 18:24:40 I want freedom. 18:24:43 I want peace. 18:24:47 I wanna learn breakfalls. 18:24:51 Being thrown is a wake-up call, but while you're in the air, you're free. 18:24:52 Forth! 18:24:52 and I wanna learn more body mechanics 18:25:03 kc5tja: Forth! :) 18:25:09 Herkamire: I can't overemphasize the importance of tai sabaki. 18:25:13 hm, my city has an Aikido dojo. 18:25:22 kc5tja: what's tai sabaki? 18:25:36 I've got to focus on Chinese for a while, but thanks for the conversation =) 18:25:45 ayrnieu: take aikido at least for long enough to learn to fall 18:26:03 Herkamire: Step 1: Get out of the way, but do so so it is of mechanical importance to you. Step 2: Break opponent's balance. Step 3: throw. 18:26:31 ayrnieu: Tai Chi and Aikido share much in philosophy. Only mechanical execution differs. 18:26:47 Tai Chi -- Ai Ki -- too similar to be canny if you ask me. :D 18:26:51 cool 18:27:01 so aikido is all about throwing, eh? 18:27:01 COOL 18:27:04 ^____^ 18:27:32 sometimes you hardly have to take their balance. my friend who is studing kosho ryo kempo has explained to me how people take themselves mostly or all the way off balance trying to hit you. sometimes just getting out of the way gets them off balance 18:27:32 Aikido is about throwing. It's about falling. It's about mechanics. All of these things have something in common: control. It's about control. 18:27:45 And yet, Aikido is absolutely none of these. 18:27:57 Pure aikido is heavily influenced by zen. 18:28:20 Herkamire: YES! And that's where the first step in tai sabaki comes in. 18:28:48 When you "get off the line," you're letting them extend beyond their circle. Or, even if they are within their circle, you're at a point where you can exercise maximum torque/leverage to get them off balance. 18:29:26 Sometimes you need to atemi (a fake, a noise, or some gentle slap on the opponent's body) to get them to realize, "Hey, wait a minute, he's not where he was, now he's behind me!" But just as he realizes this, he's already on the ground. 18:29:50 kc5tja: oh, tai sabaki is your 1) 2) 3)? :) I didn't realize you answered my question :) 18:29:58 Yep. 18:30:12 1. Get off the line. But don't go too far, lest you leave yourself open to attack too. 18:30:15 Wow... 18:30:19 I hope there's some Aikido dojo nearby 18:30:28 arke: Where do you live? 18:30:37 Camarillo 18:31:45 where are you within driving distance to? 18:33:42 uum 18:33:48 Oxnard, Ventura 18:34:01 Thousand Oaks maybe 18:34:06 Moorpark, Somis 18:35:08 http://www.makotodojo.com -- Dojo in Ventura 18:35:18 I take it you're nowhere near Irvine then. :) 18:35:35 kc5 - do you happen to know anything about the dojo in Monterey, CA? 18:35:40 heh, no :) 18:35:45 ayrnieu: No. 18:35:48 kc5tja: thanks 18:35:51 I'm in Southern California. 18:35:56 arke: I'm not done yet. I'm still looking. 18:36:30 * ayrnieu almost wonders if CA will get around to splitting, the way people talk about NoCal and SoCal. 18:36:46 bashforth = insane :) 18:36:47 http://www.aikidofaq.com/cgi-bin/aikido.pl/Search?search=Thousand+Oaks&paint=1&_form=AdvancedSearchForm 18:37:19 ayrnieu: Well, then the state is so long that you need air travel to go between its northern and southern most parts, . . . 18:37:29 s/then/when/ 18:38:05 But I do have to say this: 18:38:10 Aikido is a hard art. 18:38:31 You start off simple, and maybe in three years, you'll finally grok the first technique you learned the first day you signed up. 18:38:34 I'm not lying about this. :) 18:39:07 I used to make fun of those old Chinese B-rated TV shows, which shows the monks doing Kung Fu and not receiving enlightenment until something happens to them. 18:39:12 Until I had it happen to myself. 18:39:49 Sigh, I'd better throw away this 'Aikido in 10 Minutes' book and find that 'Aikido in 10 Years' one, then. 18:42:00 kc5 - you make it sound as if something happened to you, just there. What do you mean? 18:42:38 ayrnieu: Yeah, that's pretty much it. :) 18:42:54 I was in class one day, doing a technique that had been particularly troublesome for me. 18:43:03 And finally, *snap!* -- it all clicked. 18:43:48 I had good posture, I had good throwing technique, I had good maiai (weird to describe; it's a concept that includes both distance to your partner AND awareness of your surroundings at the same time), etc. 18:44:18 I can't really explain what it was that made everything click. 18:45:23 lol, mozilla now has telephone supportds 18:46:56 --- quit: arke ("Leaving") 18:47:08 Doggone it, I need to purchase a new bokken again, though. 18:48:09 --- join: arke (~chris@wbar8.lax1-4-11-099-104.dsl-verizon.net) joined #forth 18:49:20 Eek 18:56:24 19555 ? S 2635:11 X :1 18:56:31 EEEEK 18:56:33 WTF!? 18:57:21 The ? after the number means that it's not attached to a controlling terminal, that's all. 18:57:26 * kc5tja found that out the other day. 18:57:42 What do you refer to? 18:57:48 thats not what I'm looking at 18:57:52 look at the 2635:11 18:58:14 2635 minutes and counting. :) 18:59:01 er 18:59:07 --- join: dubious (~marc@209.71.234.197) joined #forth 18:59:16 that means how much CPU time its taking, right? 19:00:49 That means how long it's been running since you first started it. But the "S" indicates it's currently suspended (e.g., it's waiting on a socket or something), so it's not taking any CPU time. 19:01:07 Ooh, good 19:01:09 FS/Forth? 19:01:10 * arke phew 19:01:17 * arke should learn how to read ps ax 19:01:24 arke: man ps :) 19:01:31 EEK!? 19:01:49 ayrnieu: FS/Forth is a (Machine)Forth environment I'm working on. 19:02:05 kc5 - yes, I've heard. Trying to guess what arke speaks of =) 19:02:07 according to top, it's taking 15% of my CPU time 19:02:21 ayrnieu: ps -ax :) 19:02:28 ayrnieu: Oh no. He's talking about his X server. 19:02:43 arke: Yeah, X tends to do that. 19:02:58 even if its not the one i'm using? 19:03:16 because I'm using teh other X server, which is taking up like 7% or so 19:04:29 arke: Do you have any applications using the other X server? 19:04:52 erm, lemme look 19:05:09 KDE's screensaver? 19:05:16 Yeah, that'll probably do it. :) 19:05:28 X has to process graphics commands even if it's not displaying them on the screen. 19:05:35 ack 19:05:38 piece of shit 19:05:56 but i don't wanna kill the other one.. 19:06:01 i wanna keep it... 19:06:16 should I just tell KDE to not do teh screensaver? 19:06:17 Just kill the screen saver. 19:06:18 would KDE idling be better? :) 19:06:23 Yes. 19:06:40 When/if you need screen saving, you can just switch to a text-mode console or something, that'll blank out after five minutes on its own anyway. 19:06:46 hopefully KDE will manage not to burn an image of itself into your display when not displayed. 19:07:33 ayrnieu: I'm not too sure that it won't, KDE can get pretty nasty when you don't use it .. :) 19:09:28 brb 19:10:17 UID PID PPID C SZ RSS PSR STIME TTY STAT TIME CMD 19:10:25 .which one of those is CPU usage %? 19:14:17 I don't know. I'd have to man ps myself to figure it out. 19:32:04 --- quit: rO|afk (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 19:37:43 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 19:56:53 --- quit: dubious ("Leaving") 20:01:36 Hrm. 20:01:39 Quite a scary thought. 20:01:52 My brother is learning how to kill somebody, in a sense. 20:02:01 And we hate each other. 20:02:01 :( 20:03:26 Kill him! 20:03:30 Oh, that wouldn't be good either. Going to the same dojo with someone you hate.... 20:03:45 Yes... 20:03:48 But 20:03:52 he wouldn't be in the same group as me 20:03:57 he's 4 years younger. 20:03:59 You know where he sleeps. 20:04:03 And I'd rather do Aikido 20:04:09 ayrnieu: :) 20:04:21 arke: Well, don't restrict yourself to aikido just because I take aikido. 20:04:38 Look at other arts too. 20:05:00 Kung Fu, tai chi, karate, judo, jujutsu, Brazilian Jujutsu, ... 20:05:05 There is a huge variety of arts to choose from. 20:05:17 Just be on the look out for those full of themselves. 20:06:27 I wish I could find japanese swordplay 20:06:29 win chun is good 20:06:41 arke - speaking of which, I will teach5C you my secret fighting art if you wash my car on tuesdays and allow me to beat you up on wednesdays -- but take care, not every crawling worm can grow to master *my* style. 20:06:43 I don't like using fists, I prefer fencing 20:07:05 downix: Kendo or Kenjutsu. 20:07:31 kc5tja: :P 20:07:34 ayrnieu: SURE 20:07:39 I440r - do you practice win chun? 20:07:59 arke - yeah, whatever. How much money can you send me by paypal? 20:08:05 I440r: Same rules apply for Win Chun as for TKD. I've seen tons of Win Chun training halls who's senior instructor literally just boasts of all the awards they've received. 20:08:09 right 20:08:14 but noone around here does either 20:09:29 i did for a while 20:09:38 im definatly no expert and i moved so... no more :( 20:10:16 kc5 my instructor trained with one of Yip Man's top students in Hong Kong. he has NO awards :) 20:10:25 Good. 20:10:27 That's the best kind. 20:10:34 The humble student is the best master. 20:10:39 he doesnt use a belt system, he also teaches the ENTIRE art - including the mook jong 20:10:54 which yip man refused to teach bruce lee :P 20:11:14 kc5 yes he is definatly humble - but he could take on 10000 of me :) 20:12:04 Well, I know for a fact that, in a real-world fight, I'd bet plastered. 20:12:17 I've got 10 more years of Aikido training yet before I can hold my own in a street fight. 20:12:38 ok, nearest Kendo is in Ft Laughterdale 20:12:40 not too bad 20:14:02 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 20:14:42 "When I was to soon eat an apple my friend told me to give it to him. After eating it, he died. Fortunate that this wasn't me!" 20:14:53 --- join: I440r (~mark4@12-160.lctv-a5.cablelynx.com) joined #forth 20:14:53 --- quit: I440r (Client Quit) 20:15:08 --- join: I440r (~mark4@12-160.lctv-a5.cablelynx.com) joined #forth 20:15:40 I440r: The person who actually provided the final, convincing argument for me to study martial arts was my former employer, Bill Knight. He trained in Chih na. 20:15:54 *nods* 20:16:00 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@216.27.161.121) joined #forth 20:19:03 cool 20:20:02 the entire wing chun art can be learned in 1 year but takes many more tro master. its a simpla art, very minimalist 20:20:59 every single basic move is learned in the first pattern which i can pronounce but not spell :) 20:21:48 Jit Kung Do is facinating as well. 20:21:59 jit kune do is a pile of crap 20:22:02 downix: Same as Jeet Kune Do? 20:22:03 its a MOVIE martial art 20:22:08 kc5: right 20:22:28 bruce lee never learened the entire wing chun art and yip man refused to teach him the rest 20:22:32 I will never say a single martial art is a pile of crap. 20:22:41 If you can hurt someone with it, it's not a pile of crap. 20:22:58 he had absolutely NO understanding of what a mook jong (wooden man) is and the jeet kune do wooden man is simply something to bash on 20:23:01 I440r: That's because BL was a street punk before his movie career. :) 20:23:02 MooMooMooMoo 20:23:13 l440r: same as nunchucku is a movie weapon. Does not make them any less effective. 20:23:16 the true wooden man is a very scientifically designed training aid 20:23:31 back to <0|>||\|6 20:23:33 downix actually they have a basis in reality - tho - not in that form :) 20:24:01 kc5 give me a jeet kune do master and an intermediate wing chun guy and ill have my money on the wing chun gyy 20:24:08 downix: Actually, nunchaku were originally used to beat seeds out of plants (rice paddies?). Only later were they actually used for actual fighting, where they proved absolutely devastating. 20:24:34 * ayrnieu thinks about yo-yos. 20:24:39 kc5tja: *shrug* 20:24:39 alot of every day tools became weapons when weapons were outlawed 20:24:47 they are quite effective, this I knew 20:25:10 Then, one day, someone got the idea to extend the idea, and the 3-sectional staff was born. 20:25:11 :) 20:25:24 And that is a weapon I simply refuse to go up against. 20:25:26 the famous bruce lee 1 inch punch is really a wing chun punch 20:25:42 I440r: Tons of martial arts have 1" punches. 20:25:48 kc5tja: actually, I think I'll go with aikido, not because you do, but because I like the sound of it 20:25:51 All it is is a demonstration of balance. 20:25:53 Actually I prefer the 1" bow and arrow shot. 20:26:01 kc5 not many of them can trace their roots back to the ming dynasty tho 20:26:25 in fact wing chun is the only martial arts that can trace its roots back to the original masters 20:26:29 Chih na predates most other martial arts. If it doesn't predate Win Chung, it's at least contemporary. 20:26:33 the history of each of them is fully documented 20:26:54 kc5 wing chun is actually not an OLD art... its fairly young 20:27:08 In that case, Chih na predates it. :) 20:27:11 it dates back to the sacking of the monestry and the overthrow of the ming dynasty 20:27:35 "wing chun" is a girls name meaning "forever springtime" and it was the secret call sign of the resistance 20:27:44 they were dedicated to reinstating the ming dynasty 20:28:04 kc5 yes - can you say hw far back tho ? 20:28:10 or who the original masters were ??? heh 20:28:24 that alone should tell you how young the art is 20:28:37 but its proven itself against almost every other art out there 20:28:42 I440r: No. I can't. Any more than I can trace my lineage to the dinosaur I ultimately came from. Historical records like that just tell me you folks have good secretaries, that's all. 20:28:51 the key is not in knowing who the original masters are, but when the original masters are so far back you can not find them anymore other than the mists of time. 20:29:30 so that rather than a real man, you instead get to embody a presence, an essence 20:29:39 See, this is what I'm talking about. 20:29:41 the form and function, the embodyment of teaching 20:29:47 no actually im posative that a martial art will continue to progress over time and will peak and from then on its all down hill 20:30:01 i dont think wing chun has made it that far yet, its way too simple an art 20:30:15 Chest-beating like this has no place in martial arts. I couldn't care less who your master was. I couldn't care less who your master's master was. I want to know what YOU can do. 20:30:30 Teaching is not in words nor scrolls, nor in the moves given by sensei to san. it is in the soul, it is in the mind. The best teacher will fail when the student is unable to understand. 20:30:51 err i sure aint chest beating, i aint no master lol 20:31:09 I440r: You keep boasting about how you can trace the lineage all the way back to the Ming Dynasty. 20:31:15 To me, that's a form of chest-beating. :) 20:31:21 kc5 not boasting at all 20:31:43 why the fuck do you always fucking get bitchy withy me dood 20:32:01 im not belittling either YOU or akido 20:32:01 * kc5tja notes who first said the word 'fuck' here. 20:32:04 because you rant about things you don't know about, that's why 20:32:05 i would love to know akido 20:32:09 hey! what is this, the #python group?? lets be nice! 20:32:10 I didn't take it as a belittlement to aikido. 20:32:12 l440r: Let's compare this, by that measurement, Christianity is more impressive than Kemeticism, because they can trace it back to one man. But Kemeticism has been found tobe practiced as far back as 6000BC 20:32:12 Nor to me. 20:32:16 which is more impressive? 20:32:17 proteusguy: hahaha 20:32:24 but i would put a wing chun master against an akido master any day 20:32:35 i would say wing chun would win 9 times out of 10 20:32:41 See, THAT is boasting! 20:32:45 no 20:32:47 THAT is what I'm talking about. 20:32:47 YES. 20:32:54 boasting would be "i would win 9 times out of 10 20:32:55 " 20:33:03 I440r: btw, my computers are better than yours 20:33:06 Sure, that is also boasting. 20:33:06 the former is stating an opinion 20:33:23 my socks smell better than yours l440r 20:33:24 8) 20:33:39 Only instead of boasting about your capabilities, you're boasting about your art's. You think you found The One True Art. 20:33:42 There is no One True Art. 20:33:47 MY arts? 20:33:52 same as there is no one true religion 20:33:56 nor one true government 20:33:57 ive done 6 months training 20:34:00 or even one true cola 20:34:01 downix: or any true religion for that matter :) 20:34:03 * MysticOne runs! 20:34:03 how is that MY art 20:34:04 forth isn't the one true religion? damn! 20:34:09 I440r: When you read what I type and actually grok it, then I'll respond. 20:34:09 MysticOne: yup 20:34:10 im an absolute fucking beginner 20:34:14 proteusguy: you're so funny tonight! :) 20:34:14 WHAT ABOUT FORTH! 20:34:18 * MysticOne applauds proteusguy 20:34:24 FORTH IS MY RELIGION, CHUCK MY GOD AND SAVIOR 20:34:24 arke: that's a philisophy 20:34:26 proteusguy: Forth *is* the one true language, however 20:34:29 also known as masochism 20:34:35 ANS IS HELL, PYGMY IS THE HEAVEN 20:34:35 * MysticOne snickers 20:35:37 ok enough maing a mockery of ourselves :) 20:35:41 Someone said somethign about stackless python! BLASPHYEMER! 20:35:44 anybody heard of pad++? 20:35:47 ASDF 20:35:51 Herkamire: eek? 20:36:00 Herkamire: you mean I440r :) 20:36:24 My attitude is this: given a Wing Chun master, and an equivalent Aikido master, the end result of a confrontation will be a well-matched, very quick fight. In the end, both will win; both will learn, both will appreciate each other. 20:36:24 --- mode: ChanServ set +o I440r 20:36:46 --- mode: I440r set -o I440r 20:36:49 I440r - please don't do that. 20:36:53 dont do what 20:37:35 dont do what ? 20:37:45 I440r: flexing some muscles? :) 20:37:49 no 20:37:58 I440r: oh ... so you +o'd by accident? 20:37:58 * arke wants op 20:37:59 whatever a moment of introspection will show of your emotional state, just a moment ago. 20:38:03 I was reading a document about creating pad++ and they were going over a bunch of design chalanges for making a decent zooming interface 20:38:06 * arke has been a regular long enough :-P 20:38:14 no it was deliberate 20:38:22 Herka - I don't know anything about PAD++ , sorry.. 20:38:25 but in almost 10 years of irc ive never abused +o 20:38:26 Herka - a Forth word? 20:38:31 I440r: oh, so why did you +o? 20:38:36 I haven't either. 20:38:43 Mystic - find something else to think about, please. 20:38:45 so i dont care how much of an asshole you are you wont get kicked or banned from this channel 20:38:49 FLEXING MUSCLES -- SHOWING THAT HE CAN 20:38:52 ayrnieu: PAD++ is a C++ GUI library designed to implement a zooming user interface. 20:39:00 MysticOne, err i need to give YOU a reason ? 20:39:00 arke: yeah, that's what I figured :) 20:39:03 huh, OK. 20:39:04 unless you're spamming, then I guess he would kick/ban ya 20:39:15 arke - likewise, please find something else to think about. 20:39:26 no. i have only ever kicked 3 times in 10 years 20:39:29 nahh, I'll leave 20:39:29 and only ever banned once 20:39:32 other than in humor 20:39:36 tired of listening to I440r 20:39:46 MysticOne, fine what ever. 20:39:49 I've kicked about twice a year in my IRC history. This last year is an exception, where I've kicked none. Ask MysticOne. :) 20:39:50 MysticOne: just ignore him 20:39:52 thats YOUR choice 20:39:53 * ayrnieu returns to his Chinese, after an interlude with a few songs from Trans-Siberian Orchestra. 20:39:58 I440r: the #epiar people could learn alot from you, let me tell ya 20:40:04 I440r: do the world a favor and grow up ... oh, and keep your mouth shut before you start ranting about things you don't yet understand 20:40:15 --- part: MysticOne left #forth 20:40:21 what the fuck is this "lets all pick on I440r" day ? 20:40:25 fuck you 20:40:25 wtf? 20:40:29 --- part: I440r left #forth 20:40:29 sigh, MysticOne should've read that himself instead of sending it. 20:40:33 finally 20:40:35 why was he pissed off at you? 20:40:37 geezus 20:40:42 I got my invitation! 20:40:42 eek!? 20:40:48 WTF? 20:40:52 --- quit: TreyB () 20:40:58 I440r needs to grow up 20:41:08 he thinks he knows everything 20:41:24 no more than Mystic or arke, who find joy in teasing him. 20:41:30 and that he should flame us with his random views 20:41:46 ayrnieu: wtf? 20:41:56 ayrnieu: I never teased anybody. 20:42:09 arke: you were pestering him 20:42:09 ayrnieu: maybe Sonarman, but that went both ways in good spirit. 20:42:14 Herkamire: ... 20:42:28 about what? 20:42:37 arke - pause for a moment and go over your emotions and actions of the last five minutes or so, and see if that clears anything up for you. 20:42:38 if you want I440r to shut up, you have to either ignore him, or pester him until he leaves 20:42:54 * arke wants op 20:42:58 * arke has been a regular long enough :-P 20:43:00 ayrnieu: Actually, MysticOne finds no joy what-so-ever in it. 20:43:10 but in almost 10 years of irc ive never abused +o 20:43:13 I haven't either. 20:43:14 * downix doesn't want op 20:43:23 FLEXING MUSCLES -- SHOWING THAT HE CAN <--- that was meant in good spirit 20:43:25 * downix wants po! 20:43:30 unless you're spamming, then I guess he would kick/ban ya 20:43:36 it's hard to ignore him because he says stuff (I can only asume purposefully) that makes little sense, and that many people here avidly dissagree with 20:43:41 kc5 - evidently, but he found something in it. 20:43:44 I440r: the #epiar people could learn alot from you, let me tell ya 20:44:03 ayrnieu: MysticOne is the type that desires high signal to noise ratio on IRC channels. 20:44:09 now, which of those would have aggravated him? 20:44:10 Most channels that Mystic is on is like that. 20:44:36 * kc5tja has just learned to ignore (or, sometimes, /ignore) I440r when he gets into chest-beating-mode. 20:44:46 why do I think I should ask l440r if he owns an Amiga? 20:44:48 8) 20:44:51 I440r has strong views and tends to emit them as such with little sensitivity to differing views. This stopped annoying me after I understood that -- and I440r starts interesting enough conversations, sometimes. 20:44:56 downix: He does. 20:45:00 Or, at least, did. 20:45:12 there we go 20:45:16 ayrnieu: Sure. 20:45:23 Which is why I've never kicked him. :) 20:45:24 illogical trolling and chest beating is to be expected then 20:45:50 downix - please don't confuse his behavior with that of a troll. 20:45:50 However, in this case, I have to admit that I440r was the first to fly distinctly off the handle and into the realm of hallucination. 20:46:12 ayrnieu: are you going to answer my question? :) 20:46:15 Nothing I said was a direct threat nor insult directed to I440r, with the sole exception of my comment that he was boasting. 20:46:16 That's it. 20:46:24 And I only made that argument twice. 20:46:35 arke - sorry, which question do you mean? 20:46:41 now, which of those would have aggravated him? 20:46:54 ayrnieu: I'm making a joke about Amiga users, actually 20:46:55 (following the things i wrote the last 5 minutes 20:46:55 8) 20:47:14 arke: It was nothing you said. It was what everyone here was discussing. 20:47:31 then why was I being blamed? 20:47:40 Quite literally, as soon as he brought up Wing Chun as a viable art, I knew it would end like this. 20:47:43 It always has in the past. 20:48:04 arke - ah. In that set of messages, your FLEXING MUSCLES remark. Whatever your intent, it timed in as part of a general attack on I440r. 20:48:34 Well, his show of ops was flexing of muscles. 20:48:43 sure was. he was being a prick 20:48:44 er, that was meant in a humorous way... thus the caps. I never do all caps unless its in good spirit, and Mark knows that :) 20:48:45 Which, frankly, I couldn't care less about. 20:48:49 arke - and other of your ALL CAPITALIZED messages =) 20:49:04 Because unlike him, I always leave my ops on. :D 20:49:09 ayrnieu: that was the only all caps message in the last week or so. 20:49:16 kc5tja: :) 20:49:19 kc5 - why do you do that, anyway? 20:49:39 ayrnieu: A combination of laziness and my belief that ops aren't people to be afraid of. 20:49:52 arke - WHAT ABOUT. FORTH IS. ANS IS, to start a few of them. 20:49:58 when I440r said that he hadn't abused ops in the 10 years he's bin IRCing, I wanted to say "you just did 20 secconds ago" 20:50:01 * proteusguy was banned from #redhat after thinking that! 20:50:14 oh yeah. that was in good spirit as well. i thought that was obvious. 20:50:47 Perhaps I alone read it as mocking. 20:51:05 proteusguy: Well, fuck #redhat. :) I'm ops here, and if you don't like it, or anyone else for that matter, leave. In the mean time, I will note that I've never kicked or banned anyone except bot-spammers from this channel. Never. 20:51:13 Well, if it was a mocking to others, then I am very sorry. 20:51:32 kc5tja is a fair op, unlike teh #epiar people :) 20:51:47 With power comes responsibility, and I like to think I'm fairly level headed. 20:51:52 When I feel I'm not being level headed, I leave. 20:52:01 Check the logs if you don't believe me. :D 20:52:09 kc5tja: that's the purpose of banning - not for saying you prefer the default KDE over that hideous Bluestuff... :P oh well. 20:52:28 kc5tja: that's why the #epiar people need to be a little more like you :) 20:52:45 arke: quite a few of your remarks have not been taken completely lightly as you intended. 20:52:52 I've always found kc5 & i440 to be big assets here. 20:52:56 proteusguy: There's a difference between "leave" and "I'm going to kick you out and you're never to show your face here ever again." The former is a request, and an action taken on the other's part. :) 20:54:22 Herkamire: :(. My light/sarcastic remarks are usually followed by a smiley or something obviously sarcastic. It seems to me like most people understand it, especially after knowing me for a while now.... am I that bad? I am willing to change. 20:54:54 arke: What I think gets people is when you do this: (sorry to the others here) 20:54:57 FUCK!!!!!!!111!! 20:54:58 FUCK!!!!!!!111!! 20:54:58 FUCK!!!!!!!111!! 20:54:59 FUCK!!!!!!!111!! 20:54:59 FUCK!!!!!!!111!! 20:55:00 FUCK!!!!!!!111!! 20:55:02 :) 20:55:14 That, more than anything else, is something I feel most people don't like. 20:55:22 I don't percieve any value for myself from I440r being here. Half the time at least when he comes here it turns into a stupid argument. Usually because I440r can't follow simple logic. or he gets people going with his views on guns or government. 20:55:25 er, that I know, and that I'm trying to do less of... 20:55:48 but thanks for pointing that out, kc5tja 20:55:57 Herkamire: or his odd views on tabs. 20:56:27 ROTF! 20:56:32 arke: I just wanted to point out that your tone (sarcastic, light, jest, whatever) is not obvious to some. 20:56:34 Yes, his views on tabs are absolutely mind-numbing. 20:56:37 :P 20:56:42 kc5tja: ^__^ 20:56:49 er, views on tabs? 20:56:59 Herkamire: I guess I'm gonna start doing markups for my moods ^__^ 20:57:04 arke: hehe :) yes, he has odd, extremist views on many things. I am very curious how he comes to own these random views 20:57:05 I strongly agree with Chandler's suggestion on tabs, but let's not start that discussion. That's a religious topic reserved for another day. 20:57:10 :) 20:57:27 ayrnieu: Looooong story. 20:57:40 ayrnieu: look at isforth, and just wonder.. :) 20:57:53 Let's just say that I'm still surprised that Chandler is still joining this channel after the last big shoot-out between them. :D 20:57:59 isforth treats tabs as non-whitespace, IIRC. 20:58:20 well, i meant the sources, not the interpreter itself. 20:58:27 ayrnieu: Oh, neat! That means I can really confuse people by typing: 20:58:28 : 20:58:32 dup * ; 20:58:34 :D 20:58:35 ayrnieu: I440r has proclamed openly in this channel many times that if you send him anything with tabs in it he will delete it without looking further 20:58:52 (1) He believes tabs to be teh suck and produce messy unaligned code 20:58:57 at least he's upfront about it. 20:59:10 ayrnieu: what Herk said, and he also mentions it in his isforth README or something. 20:59:20 (2) He doesn't understand STC (????) 20:59:26 Oh, right, I remember that. 20:59:32 he doesn't have to be anal-retentive about it 20:59:37 arke - what about it? 21:00:11 uh - we're talking about forth people not being anal-retentative??? guys - we're playing with stacks measured in bytes! come on! 21:00:42 ayrnieu: If it's not (in)direct threaded Forth, it's not Forth at all. Change the name. That's his personal view on Forth. His arguments about it are valid, but his refusal to consider alternative situations or rationales is what's anal retentive about it. 21:00:49 ayrnieu: that's the oddest thing about him... he can't grasp the concept of STC apparently, which is weird, as STC lends itself better to most things anyway.. 21:01:11 Sorry - what is STC? I've been out of it evidently. 21:01:11 ayrnieu: as a result of that, he thinks STC != forth and only DTC or ITC is 21:01:12 arke: Especially on the 65816/6502 microprocessors. 21:01:16 kc5 - oh, I also remember that now =) 21:01:18 proteusguy: Subroutine Threaded Code. 21:01:31 oic - now I know. 21:01:31 --- join: scope (~fractal2@njd.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth 21:01:38 I440r decides what words mean, and then proclaims violently that that's what they mean. like "Forth". 21:02:06 he doesn't go with the generally accepted definition of forth, 21:02:12 nor anything from the forth's creator. 21:02:25 kc5tja: i need to learn some really cool CPU asm, get an emulator for it, and write an OS. Just for one. Once I got frapiar going :) 21:02:38 he just decided on all the features he likes in a forth, and it's only a "real forth" to him if it has those features. anything else isn't really a forth. 21:02:41 Well, to be fair, we must seem to be pretty dogmatic about things too, when following in the footsteps of Chuck Moore too. 21:02:42 well, more from chuck moore than others. 21:03:14 But that being said, Chuck is the diametric opposite of I440r -- very open minded, very calm, succinct, and always logical. 21:03:16 :) 21:03:20 kc5tja: :) 21:04:21 agreed :) 21:04:32 Hrm, it seems that i440r bashing session is done now :) 21:04:43 I'm done. sorry for all that 21:04:52 All I can say is this: I'm following in the footsteps of Moore out of respect, as a martial artist would train with his master/sensei for as long as possible. I'd like to think FS/Forth provides a few innovations over ColorForth. Especially my realization of how important vectors are to Forth. 21:05:26 ayrnieu: so what was this gforth library you mentioned earlier? 21:06:21 Sonarman: DONT TALK WE HATE YOU BAAAAH 21:06:27 is that better? :P 21:06:33 Sonar - small networking library and two (very) small servers. 21:06:40 ayrnieu: cool. 21:06:43 cool 21:06:59 Sonarman: ;) 21:07:10 shut up arke i don't like you anymore 21:07:10 arke: I think it's working. He's not talking to you. :) 21:07:15 Sonar - I wanted to write a not-quite-as-small 'echo' server using tasker.fs for concurrent connections, but I barely participate in this discussion as it goes. 21:07:17 kc5tja: :) 21:07:19 Sonarman: :) 21:07:45 an echo server just echoes what you send to it, right? 21:07:50 right. 21:07:52 Sonarman: ;) 21:08:20 It differs from a 'hello' server in that any sane implementation of one would require handling of concurrent connections =) 21:09:29 Sonarman: btw, where did you get teh rush song from? I'm looking, and can't find any...:( 21:10:28 tasker.fs -- hmm... I'm going to examine that. 21:11:18 kc5 - I couldn't do anything with it until I find Bernd Paysan's tasker.fs-using program in some kind of programming 'shootout'. 21:11:23 also, found. 21:11:24 arke: gnutella 21:11:49 Sonarman: oh, heh :). 21:11:58 Sonarman: aah, just found a lopster server that had lots of them :) 21:12:09 ayrnieu: Do you have a link by any chance? 21:12:58 kc5 - http://dada.perl.it/shootout/prodcons.gforth.html 21:14:10 hmmm... seems my goals are a bit different than pad++ 21:14:28 this document sais their goal is to get at least 10fps 21:14:47 ayrnieu: Hmm....weird. 21:14:59 I want to get at least 70fps 21:15:03 It appears that Next-task and wake are immediate words. Personally, I think that's a bad design decision. 21:15:24 Herkamire: Update the screen only when necessary, and only those parts that have really changed. 21:15:28 tasker.fs certainly seems to differ in usage from my Enth/Flux experiences. 21:16:06 diverge from what I find normal =) 21:16:09 kc5tja: when you're zooming, there will be a lot of time where all or most of the screen is changing. and I would like to get 70fps in this case 21:16:12 anyone here ever used/looked at 4IM? 21:18:46 it doesn't have to look just right when it's zooming, but I want to maintain 70fps 21:19:44 I asume I'll have to use the graphics card to achieve this 21:19:51 Sonar - a Forth system? 21:20:26 You know, coding while listening to Zappa is not a good idea 21:20:34 your declarations start doing weird 21:21:30 * downix just spotted that the MMUL unit in Eddas is called "WIGGY_WIGGY_DOOOOOWOP" 21:21:38 what I hope to be able to do is set it up so if there is too much on the screen to render normally at full frame rate that the quality of the render will drop, not the framerate 21:21:44 ayrnieu: yes. http://membres.lyrcos.fr/astrobe 21:21:51 http://membres.lycos.fr/astrobe 21:22:21 a 16-bit forth system that i played with a little the other day which seems pretty nice 21:22:28 i like the editor :) 21:22:51 I remember it from somewhere. Hm. 21:25:16 Herkamire: Maybe the best thing is to just do simple pixel-based zooming to start with, and if the screen doesn't change in a 10th of a second or so, re-render using the vector stuff. 21:25:20 its the first entry in the list of sites in the forth webring 21:28:44 Frapiar Window code works....w00t 21:28:50 no compiler warnings....w00t 21:28:58 arke: :) 21:29:41 Unlike Epiar, Frapiar's backend will revolve around the GUI 21:30:23 Well, in a sense... 21:30:50 the HUD is just a window. 21:30:59 the playing screen is actually the "root window" 21:31:02 (window id 0) 21:32:03 this makes the HUD quite customizable as you can resize stuff and put it whereever you want. 21:32:27 And I also thought of a good optimization algorithm for my little window drawing problem. 21:32:38 I thought of it on my own! didn't steal it! :) 21:32:45 :) 21:32:48 hwo does it wrok? 21:32:56 Basically, most resolutions are 4:3 21:33:06 That's quite neat, eh? 21:33:30 Well, here's the thing: each part of the screen is it's own structure with SDL_Surface's to blit 21:33:59 There's a constant amount of rectangles, usually some sort of 4x3 thing. 21:34:08 So, let's say I got the root window. 21:34:30 every dirty rectangle has one SDL_Surface: the root window. 21:34:43 they all blit, etc. etc. etc., and eventually produce teh root window. 21:34:55 Now, let's say I put another window on top of that. 21:35:44 the border rectangles (the ones where there is some of both) have both SDL_Surface's to blit in the correct order. The inner ones, however, get replaced with the window. 21:35:52 is that good? :) 21:37:45 so what you're saying is you don't bother blitting the root window for the inner rectangles? 21:38:30 exactly! 21:38:43 He may have thunked of that himself, but that's hardly original. :) 21:38:55 :) 21:39:11 Remember i told you to Google for Rob Pike and Layers? :) 21:39:28 I don't really think it'll give lots of performance improvements for just one layer, but probably more with several. 21:39:33 kc5tja: i never did look that up :) 21:39:35 Rob Pike was researching this kind of stuff before I reached the 5th grade. 21:40:22 eek 21:40:43 I'm gonna have to look, he probably has a better way of doing it than me :) 21:40:51 how does X do it? like that? 21:41:00 It can. It usually doesn't though. 21:41:03 For some retarded reason. 21:41:49 eek? 21:41:54 so how does it do it? 21:42:41 Poor Man's Windowing Algorithm!? 21:42:57 * arke has to now do Frapiar.Event 21:43:06 It asks applications to just redraw damaged window rectangles as needed. 21:43:07 arke: are you doing this in C? 21:43:08 * arke reads up on SDL's Event system, to freshen up 21:43:11 Sonarman: yep 21:43:40 kc5tja: oh. 21:44:02 kc5tja: well, that's not as bad as Poor Man's algorithm (which is what Frapiar is doing right now ^___^) 21:44:42 Nothing wrong with it, if you ask me. 21:44:51 Display-tree-based video display systems do exactly that 21:45:04 (explicit image composition) 21:45:10 That's how transparent windows and whatnot truely work. 21:45:30 Heh, yep :) 21:45:40 Sonarman: eek, that panemba song is sooo weird 21:45:45 penumbra* 21:46:06 :-) 21:46:06 Hrm, transparent windows....^___^ 21:46:56 arke: listen to the R.E.M. song, then listen to the Graveworm song :) 21:47:18 eek, no ^_^ 21:47:33 why not? 21:47:46 because .. I'm not into that sort of music :) 21:47:55 I like more Rush type stuff 21:48:00 also Red Hot Chili Peppers 21:48:07 and AC/DC :) 21:48:10 Dio 21:48:16 Black Sabbath (not all) 21:48:25 but anyway, I'm gonna sleep. 21:48:29 --- quit: downix ("Leaving") 21:48:35 I'm gonna be dreaming of Frapiar's kickass Window system :) 21:48:53 143 lines of code with LOTS of whitespace :) 21:48:54 RUSH rocks. 21:48:58 kc5tja: yep 21:49:03 * kc5tja likes Genesis and Pink Floyd the best though. 21:49:44 * Sonarman likes Power Metal and Symphonic/Melodic Metal, he guesses 21:50:05 kc5tja: yes, 143 spread out lines of nice error-free (i think) warning-free windowing code ... mmm, kickass! better than Epiar already! :) 21:50:11 * kc5tja is a progressive rock fan. 21:50:31 * arke isn't a specific genre type guy, just certain sounds appeal 21:50:43 Well, I'm also into jazz too. 21:50:47 Some classical music too. 21:50:50 like Red Hot Chili Peppers, Rush, Dio, Black Sabbath, AC/DC, a variety. 21:50:53 what does progressive music mean, anyway? do they want social equality and a clean environment? :) 21:50:54 Jazz is neat :) 21:50:58 I'm not a fan of metal, generally. 21:51:07 I like Iron Maiden. 21:51:08 I listen to trance when I need to get high :) 21:51:11 :) 21:51:23 RAMMSTEIN is cool 21:51:29 Sonarman: Progressive rock, in particular, was a movement in the 70s where rock music moved very far away from the pop beginnings that it had. 21:52:04 * arke is away: sleep .... Frapiar has 143 lines of windowing code with LOTS of whitespace, (i think) bug-free, and no compiler warnings. Better than epiar, already! 21:52:20 It was more experimental, with 20 to 40 minute long songs (complete with classical-style movements), lyrics that actually served half a purpose (instead of just repeating "YEAH BABY I'M GONNA PORK YOU TONIIIIIIIGHT!" over and over again, though in different ways), etc. 21:52:28 should i join #epiar and post arke's away message? lol 21:52:53 cool 21:52:59 GO AHEAD BITCH 21:53:17 is Public Image Limited a progressive band? 21:53:24 Hehe, that would be pretty cool, actuallly. 21:53:36 Genesis pioneered progressive rock, followed by King Crimson. 21:53:44 Sonarman: Do that, but say that I didn't want Frapiar announced until I had a released version 21:53:58 Sonarman: do that now, then paste what they say :) 21:54:03 Pink Floyd was burn-out music, then became progressive burnout when Gilmour took the lead. 21:54:35 I'cw nwvwe hwAD 21:54:37 ack 21:54:50 Sonarman: I don't know -- I never heard of them. But Dream Theater is something I'd label as progressive metal. 21:54:54 I've never heard of any of those except for Pink Flpud :) 21:55:00 Sonarman: paste it into frapiar, so I'll see it tomorrow 21:55:02 They're very influenced by Genesis, and yet, they're pretty heavy. 21:55:03 night! 21:56:02 I can't believe you've never heard of Genesis. 21:56:06 Or King Crimson. 21:56:16 prefix Sega and I might have heard of it :) 21:56:20 King Crimson is pretty hard-rocking now-a-days. Still progressive though. 21:56:41 Peter Gabriel used to be the lead for Genesis, before Phil Collins. 21:57:04 Peter Gabriel... now why do I feel like I've heard that name before? 21:57:19 Then after Phil Collins, and after quite a number of years, Ray Wilson had a very, very brief stint with the band, before the band as a whole broke up. :( 21:57:58 YES is another band who was very progressive, as was Jethro Tull. 22:00:23 mmm, Yes and Jethro Tull. 22:00:36 i remember a funny political cartoon where Gray Davis runs an television ad slamming YES because he didn't want people to vote Yes on Recall 22:00:37 What about Blue Oyster Cult? Electric Light Orchestra? 22:01:37 * scope is away[auto away after 60 minutes idle] [log- off, page- off] @ 06:57 22:01:56 ELO is hard to classify. They certainly had some long ones, and I love their disco influence. Absolutely love it. 22:02:44 ayrnieu: BOC, I haven't heard enough of. I've only heard of Don't Fear the Reaper and Godzilla. :) 22:02:54 So I don't know of BOC is progressive or not. 22:03:16 They've certainly more music than that =) 22:03:36 Of course, but I don't have the cash reserves to purchase every possible record made in the world for all time. 22:03:37 :) 22:04:54 --- join: Serg (Serg_Pengu@212.34.52.140) joined #forth 22:12:43 Oh well. I think I'm going to grab something to eat, and go to bed. 22:12:52 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK") 22:16:36 * Serg bought a handful of radio parts and thinking what to do w/ them ;)) 22:17:03 --- quit: Herkamire (brunner.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 22:17:07 --- quit: warpzero (brunner.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 22:17:07 --- quit: ayrnieu (brunner.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 22:17:12 --- quit: slava (brunner.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 22:17:13 --- quit: fridge (brunner.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 22:18:20 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@h000094d30ba2.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 22:18:20 --- join: warpzero (~warpzero@dsl.142.mt.onewest.net) joined #forth 22:18:20 --- join: fridge (~fridge@dsl-203-33-164-15.NSW.netspace.net.au) joined #forth 22:18:20 --- join: ayrnieu (julian@206.61.132.159) joined #forth 22:18:20 --- join: slava (~slava@CPE0080ad77a020-CM.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 22:20:10 --- quit: Sonarman ("leaving") 22:31:51 --- quit: Serg () 23:01:38 * scope is still away[auto away after 60 minutes idle] (59mins 59secs) 23:28:46 --- quit: Herkamire ("past my bedtime") 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/04.01.12