00:00:00 --- log: started forth/04.01.06 00:03:40 ayrnieu: exactly. I haven't seen a wiki that is just right. I'm sick of looking at them, I'd rather just make one that is just right. 00:04:05 I may just hack something inside vim for now. The tags thing is very powerful 00:04:12 (for my own use) 00:04:49 anyway, it's way late here. 00:04:58 make sure the latest entries page is available as an rss feed =) 00:05:10 hovil: :) 00:05:16 that's a good idea 00:05:30 I don't use rss, but I was looking into it last week, and it looks prety simple 00:05:40 asside from being xml of course 00:06:10 bedtime strikes. goodnight folkes 00:06:18 yeah 00:06:38 time shift sucks ;(( 00:07:00 time shift? 00:07:09 the planet is a sphere right 00:07:11 you mean how we live on oposite sides of the earth? 00:07:17 yeah 00:07:36 yeah, it can get in the way 00:07:46 --- quit: Herkamire ("goodnight") 00:08:08 * Serg is from planet turning in about 28-32 howrs ;)) 00:09:04 RU space scientists made the interesting experiment: 00:10:14 they put some people in a closed compartments, gave them food, work, books etc., but no clock, sun etc, nothing to sync their time 00:10:44 some had 'turn' as short as 15 howrs, some - up to 40 ;)) 00:11:01 between when they decided to go to bed, and that was their 'day' ? 00:11:21 yeah 00:11:30 when I was unemployed I used to sleep like that 00:11:51 they were not 'prisoners', they continued some valuable work 00:11:55 every day I would go to sleep +2 hours from the night before 00:12:37 they were writing, doing research etc 00:13:04 experimenters took care about _total_ disconnection w/ external time 00:14:31 hovil: even then unemployed, i was synced by shops, friends etc. 00:14:50 i get out of sync rarely, mostly on holydays 00:15:46 Yes, this holiday I slept four hours a day, in the middle of the afternoon. 00:29:14 --- join: qFox (C00K13S@cp12172-a.roose1.nb.home.nl) joined #forth 00:31:45 --- part: bwb left #forth 01:10:40 --- quit: imaginator (".") 02:10:04 --- quit: Serg () 02:19:59 * ayrnieu blinks. So, an online Starting Forth. 02:34:57 where ? 02:36:36 http://home.iae.nl/users/mhx/ 02:53:23 is that a legal publication ? 02:54:40 I wouldn't know. 02:58:28 prolly not lol 02:58:28 how you find it ? 02:59:14 The mafia told him 03:06:41 Just looking around. 03:07:10 Marcel posts a lot to clf, and he has a Forth system that he sells. 03:08:35 iforth 03:08:44 i know of marcel 03:42:50 --- quit: Robert ("brb") 03:43:15 --- join: aktnot (ident@233.80-202-65.nextgentel.com) joined #forth 03:46:33 Well, it seems that I will have to write a networking library for GCC, since it does not itself helf one. (How strange!) Taygeta claims to have a TCP/IP interface for gforth, but they require some kind of unspecified licensing agreement to use it. 03:47:44 also, 'gforth'. 03:47:54 I don't know why I said 'GCC', sorry. 03:51:59 look in isforth 03:52:22 isforth has sockets stuff - not complete yet but its a start 03:52:34 i can connect a forth bot to irc 03:53:29 --- join: [Forth] (~Forth@12-160.lctv-a5.cablelynx.com) joined #forth 04:00:29 ah, cool. 04:04:23 yeah, I hate the &|^~%/% idea =) 04:17:07 but I'll re-learn isforth, first =) 04:24:48 --- quit: aktnot ("leaving") 04:44:37 --- join: Robert (~snofs@c-7e5a71d5.17-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) joined #forth 04:54:58 --- quit: Robert ("brb") 04:57:30 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 04:58:12 --- join: Robert (~snofs@c-7e5a71d5.17-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) joined #forth 05:15:01 --- quit: hovil ("Leaving") 05:33:14 --- quit: [Forth] ("abort" Reality Strikes Again"") 05:37:25 --- quit: I440r ("Leaving") 06:09:30 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 06:45:37 --- join: I440r (~mark4@saturn.vcsd.com) joined #forth 07:10:48 --- quit: skylan (sterling.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 07:10:48 --- quit: TreyB (sterling.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 07:10:48 --- quit: qFox (sterling.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 07:10:48 --- quit: jbj_tampa (sterling.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 07:10:48 --- quit: warpzero (sterling.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 07:10:49 --- quit: oooo__ (sterling.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 07:10:49 --- quit: ianp (sterling.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 07:10:49 --- quit: ChanServ (sterling.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 07:10:49 --- quit: I440r (sterling.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 07:10:49 --- quit: madgarden (sterling.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 07:10:50 --- quit: mur (sterling.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 07:10:50 --- quit: Robert (sterling.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 07:10:50 --- quit: ayrnieu (sterling.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 07:10:50 --- quit: scope (sterling.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 07:10:51 --- quit: MysticOne (sterling.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 07:10:51 --- quit: arke (sterling.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 07:10:51 --- quit: cmeme (sterling.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 07:10:51 --- quit: slava (sterling.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 07:11:06 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth 07:11:06 --- join: I440r (~mark4@saturn.vcsd.com) joined #forth 07:11:06 --- join: Robert (~snofs@c-7e5a71d5.17-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) joined #forth 07:11:06 --- join: qFox (C00K13S@cp12172-a.roose1.nb.home.nl) joined #forth 07:11:06 --- join: ayrnieu (~julian@206.61.132.131) joined #forth 07:11:06 --- join: scope (~junk@njd.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth 07:11:06 --- join: skylan (~sjh@vickesh01-4902.tbaytel.net) joined #forth 07:11:06 --- join: arke (~chris@wbar8.lax1-4-11-099-104.dsl-verizon.net) joined #forth 07:11:06 --- join: jbj_tampa (~jbj@rdu26-59-021.nc.rr.com) joined #forth 07:11:06 --- join: TreyB (~trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 07:11:06 --- join: cmeme (~cmeme@216.184.11.30.unused.swcp.com) joined #forth 07:11:06 --- join: slava (~slava@CPE0080ad77a020-CM.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 07:11:06 --- join: warpzero (~warpzero@dsl.142.mt.onewest.net) joined #forth 07:11:06 --- join: madgarden (~madgarden@Kitchener-HSE-ppp3576567.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 07:11:06 --- join: MysticOne (mysticone@mysticone.usercloak.freenode) joined #forth 07:11:06 --- join: oooo__ (o@virgo.bombsquad.org) joined #forth 07:11:06 --- join: ianp (ian@inpuj.net) joined #forth 07:11:06 --- join: mur (~mur@uiah.fi) joined #forth 07:11:06 --- mode: sterling.freenode.net set +o ChanServ 07:15:01 --- quit: scope (sterling.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 07:15:01 --- quit: ayrnieu (sterling.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 07:15:01 --- quit: Robert (sterling.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 07:15:26 --- join: Robert (~snofs@c-7e5a71d5.17-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) joined #forth 07:15:26 --- join: ayrnieu (~julian@206.61.132.131) joined #forth 07:15:26 --- join: scope (~junk@njd.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth 07:19:23 --- quit: onetom (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 07:19:27 * arke is away: sch00l 07:32:07 --- quit: ChanServ (Shutting Down) 07:32:43 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth 07:32:43 --- mode: sterling.freenode.net set +o ChanServ 07:34:36 --- join: Serg (~z@212.34.52.140) joined #forth 07:34:49 serg serg 07:34:54 hi hi 07:35:08 fu... orthodox xmas here ;)) 07:35:22 presents? 07:35:25 Hey 07:35:34 hi Robert ;)) 07:35:35 the julian calendar? 07:35:46 yeah, julian 07:35:51 Hehe 07:36:05 You're still in the 15th century? ;) 07:36:12 good point, for church only ;)) 07:36:26 no, state lives by Grigorian 07:36:33 Chuch never left it 07:36:35 Good 07:36:58 there are some people who still use julian calendar 07:37:07 but some ppl seem to be prehistoric at all ;)) 07:37:09 Those are called romans. 07:37:33 Serg: if you forget your parents or gfs bday, just say, i forgot was your bday XXth day on julian or gregorian calender 07:38:44 Heh 07:38:51 Then they'll cut him to pieces 07:39:29 then we can chat to serg and _penguin both at different times and have better irc coverage 07:39:44 ;)) 07:40:05 i don't celebrate much ;) 07:40:36 i raised between untermenchs who bark like dogs more than celebrate 07:41:09 sunken in vodka and malice 07:42:11 vodka and soup made of 3 ingredients, blini, vodka and vodka. and for dessert blini (steam warmed in vodka), with vodka sauce 07:42:16 and vodka for drink 07:43:04 retaliating everyone around for their own inner misery 07:43:47 heh, i calculated what RU drunk a 'Titanik' of spirit drinks at NY day 07:44:34 :) 07:44:40 140 million ppl * 0.5 liter = 70 thousand tons 07:44:49 :&/ 07:48:18 'Titanic' had displacement of 66 thousands 07:55:14 sad 07:56:57 my uncle died in a street of ethanol intoxication ;(( 07:57:13 :/ 07:57:24 hmm 07:57:51 really, i had all the chances to live and end as miserably as all my relatives 07:57:59 i had first weird image in mind. i thought that the ethanol tank woudl have broke and gas ethanol woudl have made people overdosis 07:58:20 end as miserably, what do you mean? 07:58:21 7win 13 07:58:24 grrr 07:58:25 some miracle turned the table ;)) 07:58:36 :) 07:58:40 live in misery and die of overdrunk 07:58:48 dont drink! 07:58:53 * mur does not drnk at all 07:58:56 i do not ;)) 07:59:07 maybe, a little champaign ;)) 08:00:00 --- quit: oooo__ (sterling.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 08:00:00 --- quit: ianp (sterling.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 08:00:33 --- join: ianp (ian@inpuj.net) joined #forth 08:00:33 --- join: oooo__ (o@virgo.bombsquad.org) joined #forth 08:04:46 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 08:46:01 --- quit: cmeme (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 08:46:32 --- join: cmeme (~cmeme@216.184.11.30.unused.swcp.com) joined #forth 08:56:08 --- quit: Serg () 09:38:22 --- join: rO| (rO_@pD9E59897.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 09:39:44 hello everybody 09:40:46 Hi rO| 09:41:51 hi Robert got your ham license now? 09:43:15 * rO| wishes you a good new year cmeme tathi oooo__ ianp @ChanServ scope ayrnieu Robert clog chandler I440r qFox skylan arke jbj_tampa TreyB slava warpzero madgarden MysticOne mur 09:44:11 Thanks :) Happy new year to you too! 09:44:27 Not yet.. I passed the test, but I guess those buerocrats have vacation now 09:46:18 awww ;-) congrats btw. 09:46:31 Thanks :) 09:46:39 Do you have a license? 09:46:52 Or had 09:47:21 umm, is that necessary?? ;-) 09:47:39 I was just curious about your call if you had any 09:48:14 I'll call you DL0FORTH ;) 09:49:45 hmm, which is the abbrev for ... ? 09:52:12 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@h000094d30ba2.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 09:52:35 still i got next to no experience at it 09:52:54 happy new year Herkamire 09:55:05 --- join: tathi_ (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 09:55:08 --- quit: tathi (Nick collision from services.) 09:55:21 --- nick: tathi_ -> tathi 09:55:41 hi rO| :) 09:55:41 * rO| is shocked about clog 09:55:48 rO|: ? 09:56:23 hmm? 09:56:27 about bot? 09:56:33 where did clog/nef/tunes put *all* the logs b4 2k4??? 09:56:41 nothing there anymore.. 09:56:57 air might have removed them from server 09:57:02 http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/forth/ 09:57:10 oh, weird. didn't notice that. 09:57:19 try http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/old/ 09:58:12 oops :-) 09:58:18 thank you 09:58:25 np 09:59:00 rO|: oh I see. I thought for a minute that you were shocked that you were being logged :) 10:02:33 nope, not a problem, but still an OT# would be a good idea i suppose 10:03:58 * rO| googling about "forth on vmware" atm 10:13:04 None of the graphic versions run under VMWare because it doesn't offer a VESA 2.0 LFB mode 10:20:52 --- join: Rotaerk (~Rotaerk@1Cust181.tnt1.aiken.sc.da.uu.net) joined #forth 10:20:58 hmm... 10:21:05 I've been messing with forth... 10:21:11 just found out about it last night 10:21:19 Rotaerk: cool :) 10:21:21 so...what do you think? 10:21:22 I ...am having trouble deciding if I like it 10:21:27 it's weird 10:21:36 I'm a C/C++/C# fan 10:21:45 that's what I'm used to 10:22:12 but... 10:22:14 I see. 10:22:23 Forth certainly takes some getting used to, coming from there. 10:22:28 I really like the idea behind Forth... 10:22:33 what about ms visual forth? 10:22:36 but it's ...just odd from a C perspective 10:22:56 I have Win32Forth on my computer right now...downloaded last night... 10:23:03 didnt knwo about MS VForth 10:23:16 just kidding.. 10:23:27 ...oh 10:23:34 I guess I'm open for suckering 10:23:41 M$ VForth would be like the antichrist 10:23:50 but there's a ms vs forth plugin written in c# 10:24:21 called delphi forth or alike 10:24:41 oh 10:25:21 hmm, I still havent found out: can you compile a forth word into an application for, say, windows? 10:25:31 I mean...so far it's just an interactive shell... 10:25:37 but implemented in that way it looses almost everything what is forth ;-) 10:25:45 and maybe script files that you have to load into a forth shell 10:25:56 yeah, most forths tend to be that way 10:26:14 though there are some that compile binaries 10:26:29 the thing I like about Forth is the blending of functions and programs 10:26:46 as well as the multiple levels of abstraction possible 10:26:59 s/multiple/arbitrary 10:27:42 so do you people use the Forth OS? 10:27:48 forth philosophy tends toward "the source is so small, and we can compile so fast, there's no point saving binaries" 10:28:19 s/delphi forth/delta forth/ http://www.dataman.ro/dforth/ 10:28:30 well...no... 10:28:38 but be warned ;-) 10:29:02 but in Forth environments do you get games and software of the complexity like other platforms? 10:29:33 I don't have a lot of experience, but it seems like not. 10:29:58 I can see how Forth would be practical in implementing software for real-world machines and devices...but not for general purpose computers. 10:30:07 Forth tends to be a DIY thing, so a lot of people seem to spend their time fiddling with the Forth environment rather than doing applications. 10:30:42 there are a bunch of forths that boot, but to my (admittedly limited) knowledge, none has been fleshed out to the point of being usable as a general-purpose OS. 10:32:01 I'm convinced that it would work well for such a thing (in fact, I'm working on the beginnings of one), but no-one seems to have done it yet. 10:32:53 Rotaerk: teamwork usually is not the first goal of forthers. much more is "my own forth". but teamwork you definitely need for the complexity you mentioned 10:33:12 I dont know LISP, but someone to whom I just described Forth said it was like that? 10:33:15 -? 10:33:40 yeah, lisp and forth are similar in some ways. 10:34:16 anyone agrees/disagrees to what i said last line? speak up! 10:34:26 ;-) 10:35:14 rO|: I think some people can go a long way without teamwork, but they seem to go on to other stuff. 10:35:17 well, I like several of the concepts in Forth...but I'll have to evaluate my paradigms of programming and software...I may end up writing a language that uses some of its concepts... 10:35:25 (like Jeff and Chuck going on to hardware) 10:35:30 I agree with tathi 10:35:32 but is altogether different in many ways 10:35:59 Rotaerk: yeah, that happens a lot. There are a bunch of forth-like languages out there. 10:36:26 k 10:37:58 Forth is all about extending the language to fit your problem, so it kind of encourages that. :) 10:38:41 tathi: what cm did seems to me nothing else than a logical consequence of his philosophy 10:39:09 s/did/does/ 10:39:16 ! 10:39:52 rO|: yes, but it does mean that he doesn't have a system that he uses for everything. 10:39:55 --- join: Rotaerk_ (~Rotaerk@1Cust39.tnt1.aiken.sc.da.uu.net) joined #forth 10:40:29 he does his chip design in a Forth environment, sure, but uses Windows for e-mail, internet, etc. 10:41:11 ditto Jeff (uses Windows), someone asked him about that once, and he said he had a forth machine or two around that he should dust off and use. 10:41:16 (but he doesn't) 10:41:49 tathi: ack. interesting point ;-) 10:42:25 I'm not trying to put down Jeff or Chuck, they're doing great stuff, and my thinking on Forth owes a lot to both of them. 10:42:57 But personally, I hope that when I've been doing Forth for that long I won't be using Windows or Linux any more. 10:43:28 tathi: exactly, same here. but that's what i meant about "teamwork" .. ;-) 10:44:00 teamwork vs. "my own thing" 10:44:04 yeah 10:45:33 I like Jeff's addition to the languages-as-cars thing 10:45:48 but those two poles won't necessarily need to be a "versus". 10:46:01 "Forth would be a small sports car, great fun to drive, but the owner spends most of the time tinkering under the hood rather than driving it." 10:46:07 (or something like that) 10:46:29 yeah. I have no problem with borrowing source code from other people, or letting them use mine 10:46:41 It's just that I haven't really done anything that I think is worth sharing 10:46:50 And haven't seen a lot of code that I'd want to borrow. 10:47:09 fml is about solving this polar topic 10:47:39 Forth isn't straight source-code compatible, but it's usually _very_ easy to get someone else's code working on whatever forth you're using. 10:47:51 has anyone done anything with fml? 10:48:42 I mean, does it actually exist? 10:49:42 --- quit: Rotaerk_ (Operation timed out) 10:51:35 What I really like is Speuler's wiki. 10:51:35 tathi: since it's solving a paradoxon, few i see working on it 10:51:55 tathi: yes! 10:51:56 there's another Forth wiki somewhere, but it seemed pretty dead. 10:52:08 I keep seeing new stuff on this one. 10:52:16 very promising 10:53:25 cool 10:53:36 crc has been active again 10:56:19 I've been wanting an active forth wiki for a while. 10:57:02 --- quit: Rotaerk (No route to host) 11:13:18 hmm, yeah, I suppose it is mostly just him 11:16:12 hehe :) 11:16:14 I'll join in 11:16:40 http://www.forthfreak.net/wiki/index.cgi?ForthFreak 12:15:51 --- join: rO|_ (rO_@pD9E598C7.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 12:16:33 --- quit: rO| (Nick collision from services.) 12:16:38 --- nick: rO|_ -> rO| 12:24:20 hi 12:25:40 hi 12:26:31 who here uses blocks? 12:27:23 I use them a bit 12:30:35 for storing source code? 12:40:57 --- join: aktnot (~ident@233.80-202-65.nextgentel.com) joined #forth 12:42:20 --- part: aktnot left #forth 12:43:17 slava: yeah 12:43:43 I may switch it to a database though. I'm still hashing through my design 12:44:18 i'm thinking of some kind of database for my language too, but influenced by blocks. blocks seem crude but there is something that is really elegant about them. 12:44:56 I think there should be blocks, but not that you should do everything directly with blocks 12:45:10 like a db built on top of blocks? 12:45:15 disk access is in blocks 12:45:30 slava: yes 12:46:19 what kind of db are you thinking of? 12:46:40 for my system a flat database with numeric ids and types 12:47:02 (each record has a unique ID that you fetch it with, and a type 12:47:20 variable-sized records? 12:47:21 length optional 12:47:46 yes, types with variable lengths would enclude a length count 12:47:53 right. 12:48:08 you realize that this is basically a filesystem? :) 12:48:34 not like any filesystem I've used 12:48:46 no filenames, no tree, to permissions 12:49:01 hfs is the only filesystem I've used that maintaned types 12:49:03 yup 12:49:21 i mean in the algorithms you would use to maintain the on-disk layout. but i guess you won't be dealing with fragmentation and such eh 12:51:49 fragmentation will be an issue with variable length data 12:52:13 if you're only storing small records you could just copy a record to a new location when it grows 12:54:08 I haven't totally made up my mind. I might not really do variable length 12:57:57 powers of 2 is simpler 13:03:37 I really don't know what I'm goind to do yet. 13:03:57 I'm tempted to just say that all dynamic memory and database entries are 1KB 13:04:23 basically a system that is just blocks, and sorta has a database to keep track of them 13:06:59 TreyB: how is the state of "enth on vmware"? 13:08:29 I never heard back from Sean on the bootstrap changes. 13:10:23 is your vesa drv in forth? 13:18:59 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 14:35:04 --- join: aktnot_ (ident@233.80-202-65.nextgentel.com) joined #forth 14:35:31 --- quit: aktnot_ (Client Quit) 14:35:40 --- join: aktnot_ (ident@233.80-202-65.nextgentel.com) joined #forth 14:36:24 --- part: aktnot_ left #forth 14:49:30 --- join: wossname (wossname@HSE-QuebecCity-ppp81387.qc.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 14:53:27 --- quit: I440r ("bbl") 15:23:20 --- quit: Herkamire ("restarting router") 15:23:52 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@h000094d30ba2.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 15:45:12 --- join: fridge (~fridge@dsl-203-33-163-126.NSW.netspace.net.au) joined #forth 15:48:18 --- quit: wossname (":(") 15:57:56 --- join: Sonarman (~matt@adsl-64-169-93-171.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 15:58:26 --- quit: qFox ("if at first you dont succeed, quit again") 16:32:43 http://bespin.org/~qz/bart.gif <--- heh 17:01:36 * arke is back (gone 09:42:12) 17:02:44 My computer's so fast it finishes an infinite loop in 5 minutes. 18:09:50 --- join: ez4 (~ez4@pcp01518726pcs.reding01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 18:40:11 * arke is away: food 19:25:28 --- join: I440r (~mark4@12-160.lctv-a5.cablelynx.com) joined #forth 19:26:05 lazy idlers! 19:26:22 * I440r when shooting - its goota be at least 20 degrees out there too.... 19:26:23 brrrrrr 19:26:24 * fridge would retort, but he is too busy idling 19:26:30 lolk 19:26:52 fired 100 rounds thru my kimber 19:27:13 killed that target too 19:27:16 its a dead target 19:27:31 had to patch it up once too 19:27:40 fun fun fun 19:27:49 even if i was freezin my ass off lol 19:31:58 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@66-91-231-74.san.rr.com) joined #forth 19:31:58 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja 19:34:09 * kc5tja added FTS/MachineForth as an option, and changed my vote to it on my name-change proposal page. 19:38:50 nobody has contacted me about my proposed "and" & "or" | stuff yet 19:39:02 but ill give it a week after my next release 19:39:19 klc5 you code 8051 right ? 19:40:04 no. 19:40:22 oh lol 19:40:25 i thunked you did 19:40:27 nor do i care to. i can't stand the look of its architecture. :( 19:42:05 i love it - but i agree, harvard CAN get in the way 19:42:23 Forget Harvard. 19:42:28 I'm just talking the general machine language. 19:43:10 aha its actually quite nice :) 19:43:28 if you ever HAD to code it for a job you wouldnt find it that bad 19:43:56 I probably would. 19:44:07 It just reaks of Z-80-era instruction design. 19:44:11 and its instruction encoding is really neat. nice n simple. aftrer all even "I" was able to write an assembler for it heh 19:44:22 i never like the z80 at all 19:44:41 I used to like it until I wrote code for 6502. 19:44:47 I never turned back since. 19:44:48 but i love the 51 the same way io love the 6502\ 19:45:23 i tried for a month to learn z80, couldnt get my head arround it. didnt understand a thing lol 19:45:39 i learned 6502 in 2 weeks by doing a hand reverse engineer of a 8k program 19:45:53 suing "rodnay zakks programming the 6502" hehe 19:45:59 then i bought a computer 19:46:00 Z-80 is easy for me to learn. 19:46:05 But it's so . . . unorthogonal. 19:46:18 ya 19:47:17 Instructions are seemingly chosen at random. 19:47:33 AND.... 19:47:38 lol 19:47:50 Z-80 is what gave birth to prefix bytes in opcodes!! 19:47:57 ick 19:48:10 Intel's 8086 would NOT have been the same without the Z-80. 19:48:16 they always seem like a kiudge fix for a "oopts we missed something" 19:48:19 or an afterthought 19:48:21 The 8086's string instructions and prefix bytes all came from Z-80. 19:48:28 Well, it was. 19:48:30 i know 19:48:41 i know the 8086 is based on the z80 19:48:57 The z-80 was supposed to be 100% backward compatible with the 8080, but only with new registers (which were much needed, I might add, and they ARE useful), new addressing modes, and whatnot. 19:49:11 i would never have been able to learn x86 either if i had had to use masm 19:49:11 One thing we can be thankful of the Z-80 for: 64K I/O space. 19:49:16 thank god for a86 19:49:22 rm -rf ALL the stupid red tape 19:49:26 The 8080 only had 256 byte address space. The Z80 expanded that to 64K via the BC register. 19:49:45 aright 19:49:52 in al, xxx 19:51:37 Is A86 open source yet? 19:51:56 When I last used A86 (to write FS/Forth 1.0!), it was closed source, AND had a restricted software distribution license. 19:53:33 no 19:53:37 probably never will be 19:53:50 tho. he lives just arround the corner from where i live in indiana 19:54:03 i asked him a few years ago if he would do a linux version but he declined 19:54:13 maybe he would allow me to do the port 20:07:31 Heh 20:07:44 Maybe make a clone of it, rather than port it. 20:09:00 --- quit: ayrnieu ("leaving") 20:09:39 dunno - i think he codes his asm ALL IN UPPER CASE 20:09:43 that would tend to annoy lol 20:09:47 i would have to change that 20:09:56 i dont think i could do a clone of it 20:35:59 * arke is back (gone 01:55:47) 20:36:33 hiya Sam and Mark 20:37:37 and everybody else ^__^ 20:47:33 --- join: cleverdra (~julian@206.61.132.131) joined #forth 20:57:19 hi cleverdra 21:00:16 :) 21:00:22 re arke 21:00:53 Ugh. 21:00:58 Oh man, after seeing the electric bill for us this month, I really want to persue a low-power PC replacement for my desktop. 21:01:08 I use my box primarily for Internet connectivity at the moment anyway. 21:01:17 i dont know about you 21:01:17 but i personally havent "run out of registers" on the x86 21:01:21 laptop! 21:01:24 May i hurt him? :) 21:01:58 I got a watt-hour meter, and found plugged in the power strips that have our computers and a little other stuff 21:02:01 arke: He apparently hasn't ever tried to hand-optimize a machine language code snip to exploit multiple pipelines. 21:02:21 yes. 21:02:28 hello arke. 21:02:35 the other day he tried to tell me how oh-so-fast rep and loop are ^___^ 21:02:43 cleverdra: hiya 21:02:53 Herkamire: Well, the 65816 draws mere milliamps, and can shut itself down completely without losing state, thus drawing only microamps. 21:03:02 I don't think x86 "mobile" processors can do taht. 21:03:16 kc5tja: nice :) 21:03:29 I seem to remember that we draw about 60 watts with everything off 21:03:43 Herkamire: And, frankly, if I could, I would like to measure current draw from a stack-architecture CPU implemented in an FPGA. 21:03:51 fpga? 21:04:01 Field Programmable Gate Array 21:04:25 A similar technology to what the Novix NC4000 CPU was implemented in, actually. 21:04:35 oh, i remember. 21:04:43 coolness. 21:05:01 I'd love a low low power fpga forth chip 21:06:11 i'd love a forth chip period. 21:06:26 That's one nice thing about static logic: transistors are bigger, and it runs slower than dynamic logic, but it sure draws a *LOT* less current. 21:08:14 ? 21:14:03 * kc5tja would like to explore a bit more with asynchronous logic design though; clockless, sequential circuits fascinate me. 21:14:20 oh yeah 21:14:27 how do they work? 21:14:34 such a processor would massivley turn me on. 21:14:37 I'm not sure I can explain it simply. 21:15:04 Each logic gate has a time delay from when a signal is put on its input, to the time it produces the correct output. 21:15:19 That delay is exploited to provide timing for other circuits. 21:16:34 Also, circuits are built slightly differently too. Most asynchronous interfaces are built with FOO and FOO-ACK, where FOO-ACK is some acknowledgement for FOO. 21:16:48 The circuit that asserts FOO won't continue or change states until FOO-ACK is received. 21:18:02 ok, neat.. 21:23:14 --- join: hovil (~hovil@CommSecureAustPtyLtd.sb1.optus.net.au) joined #forth 21:28:00 http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/async/background/return_async.html has some good information on the concept. 21:42:21 kc5tja: you're saying that FPGAs draw a lot more current than normal chips right? 21:42:30 kc5tja: like around 10X more? 21:42:53 FPGAs are smaller and faster than normal chips? 21:43:14 No. Typically they run slower and consume more space. 21:43:40 However, they can often run faster than a software-only implementation of an algorithm. 21:43:52 oh course 21:44:08 but are they fast at all compaired to regular chips? 21:44:29 Not usually. 21:45:57 hrm. 21:46:11 I would love to see like an intel proc or such on an asynch chip 21:46:43 Chuck's c18 and x25 designs run asynch. 21:46:52 c00l 21:46:52 Herkamire: Huh? 21:47:41 Herkamire: FPGAs can run with very little power -- CMOS circuits consume power only when transistors change states. 21:48:24 TreyB: Depends on what you mean by 'fast.' True, you're not going to get 1GHz level performance out of an FPGA, but many FPGAs nonetheless have internal propegation delays as small as 1ns for moderately complex logic. 21:48:46 An asynchronous design in an FPGA could offer quite good performance, maybe even faster than a synchronous design, precisely because it minimizes global propegation delays. 21:49:12 Though, once again, FPGAs trade off space consumption for convenience. 21:49:39 kc5tja: Sure. When you can trade a few dozens or hundreds of x86 instructions for a few gates in an FPGA, you can see big wins. 21:49:51 if you got like the optimal asynch chip, could you make it faster? ("overclock"?) 21:50:15 You mostly can't say "clock" and "asynch" in the same breath :-) 21:50:44 ^__^ 21:50:51 TreyB: Umm...depending on the FPGA, 66MHz clock rates are not unheard of. 21:51:28 arke: Yes. Just shrink the circuit down to use a smaller feature size. 21:51:37 Hrm/. 21:51:39 Ok 21:52:05 By their nature, asynchronous circuitry always runs as fast as the physical hardware will permit. 21:52:16 coolness 21:52:18 coolness 21:52:18 coolness 21:52:18 coolness 21:52:18 coolness 21:52:25 Environmental conditions such as temperature and operating voltage all determines true operating speed. 21:52:36 teh colder teh faster? 21:52:45 To a point, yes. 21:52:52 ^___^ 21:52:55 Also, the higher the voltage, the faster too. 21:53:09 ^_____^ 21:53:55 * arke imagines the CPU market in 20 years .... intel pentium 7 architecture, asynch, with built-in freezer and transistor amplifier 21:54:21 --- quit: Sonarman ("leaving") 21:54:23 kc5tja: I know. Fast FPGAs rock, if you can afford them. We can't really get into specifics until we start nailing down the CPU/FPGA pairs, though. 21:54:49 (for comparison purposes) 21:55:00 arke: All transistors are amplifiers. 21:55:09 arke: And liquid cooling for CPUs is not a new technology. 21:55:19 well, transistors specifically used for it ^__^ 21:55:31 arke: all transistors are amplifiers. :) 21:55:33 Even those in gates. 21:55:39 Logic gates couldn't work without amplification. 21:55:46 kc5tja: well, what you could do is get one of those neat heat/freeze units and mount it smack dab on top of the chip 21:56:12 kc5tja: it idles at cold, and if it gets too cold, turns on the heat 21:56:19 controlled by a separate chip. 21:56:22 arke: ?? 21:56:23 would be efficient. 21:56:27 heh 21:56:34 I really don't know what you're talking about now. 21:56:41 they got those really cool things... 21:56:42 TNSTAAFL 21:57:01 basically, you got two wires. if you send current one way, you get heat, the other way, you get coldness. 21:57:13 (as in, switch + - ) 21:57:14 Piezio-electric heat pumps. 21:57:25 duno what they're called ^___^ 21:57:28 TreyB: :) 21:57:41 but anyway, mount one of those on the chip. Or even just a cooling versionl 21:58:50 * arke is away: sleeeeep 22:00:06 Yes, but you're not making any sense in why you'd want that. 22:00:19 And they're called Peltier devices, not piezo-electric. :D 22:00:40 Piezo-electric effect converts voltage to relative motion; it's the basis of crystal oscillators and BBQ igniters. :D 22:02:52 I had the "P" right! 22:02:57 ;-) 22:03:16 * TreyB needs sleep badly. 22:04:26 hehe 22:04:47 At any rate, if I were to design a CPU, I'd start with a synchronous design, for simplicity and correctness. 22:04:56 But then, as quickly as I could, I'd try to build an asynchronous design afterwards. 22:05:08 Just to see what is involved. 22:05:28 One of the things that really causes me grief is the sheer amount of EMI I get from my computer in my ham radio. 22:05:43 what's the oposite of UNTIL? 22:05:52 begin/unless? 22:06:09 I can take a screen capture of a waterfall display on my ham radio software to show you if you want. It's *nasty.* 22:06:16 Herkamire: WHILE is the logical opposite. 22:06:27 kc5tja: thanks 22:06:28 UNTIL tests for a true condition, while WHILE tests for a negative condition. 22:07:21 but dosen't WHILE make you have another section? like: begin ... while ... repeat 22:08:56 kc5tja: from what little I've read, you pretty much have to start from scratch with an async design (based on reading about the async ARM cores). 22:10:33 Herkamire: Yes, it does. 22:10:41 TreyB: That's fine. 22:11:31 G'night, folks. 22:12:06 what's the simplest ANS loop that will continue until a zero is on top of the stack? 22:14:43 rrrr, maybe that's why I have to write my own source, I don't like the ANS control constructs 22:16:15 http://www.async.caltech.edu/filter.html -- Wow, in liquid nitrogen, this asynchronous FIR filter circuit executed the equivalent of 1 billion operations per second. :D 22:16:44 Herkamire: BEGIN DUP 0= IF EXIT THEN .... AGAIN 22:16:56 Herkamire: or, BEGIN DUP WHILE ... REPEAT 22:20:39 http://www.async.caltech.edu/mips.html --- There you go -- proof that async logic **ROCKS**. 180MHz due only to design error, still MUCH faster than a comparable CPU in the same process using synchronous logic, and drawing a fraction of the pwoer to boot. 22:20:46 MAN, I wish I had my own fab. :/ 22:21:02 * kc5tja wonders if a MISC design is easily implementable in an FPGA using asynchronous logic. 22:23:19 They claim a 2x to 3x performance boost by cooling the chip to liquid nitrogen temperatures. Egads!! 0.6u technology, 900MHz performance at LN2 temperatures....I want one!! 22:23:27 And it's a MIPS CPU. 22:23:33 (which is my all-time favorite RISC) 22:33:28 phy on ANS. I'm going to keep using 0; and tail recursion 22:51:17 phy? 22:55:01 fie 22:55:10 I can't spell when I'm mad ok ;) 22:57:08 there, I contributed to Speuler's wiki 22:57:17 --- quit: Herkamire ("and now I can go to bed") 23:05:11 --- part: ez4 left #forth 23:07:53 --- join: qFox (C00K13S@cp12172-a.roose1.nb.home.nl) joined #forth 23:57:22 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK") 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/04.01.06