00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.12.24
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05:24:47 <Robert> Hi Serg 
05:25:00 <Robert> Merry christmas, if you guys celebrate that :P
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05:29:21 <Serg> hi !
05:29:47 <Serg> i mostly recognize 'sunturn' - the longest night, turn to raising day
05:30:01 <Serg> here xmas is 7jan
05:38:53 <warpzero> sup dudes
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05:51:45 * warpzero is away: Today is a good day to die... blah blah blah stupid klingons.
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08:02:53 <mur> Serg
08:07:23 <Serg> hi !
08:07:52 * mur is hungry
08:08:00 <mur> have to wait 40 minutes until food
08:08:01 <mur> :P
08:08:44 * Serg is fat as hamster ;))
08:09:16 <mur> you have stolen all my fat ;)
08:10:27 <Serg> i just bought an exponometeras old as me, it matches w/ new canon A70 all the way ;))
08:11:16 <mur> exponometeras?
08:11:40 <Serg> exponometer, _ as old as me - missed space
08:13:19 <mur> what does it do?
08:14:49 <Serg> aim it at future shot, press the button and turn the disk till LED goes in or out, switches state
08:15:10 <Serg> read speed/aperture pairs on disk dial
08:15:25 <Serg> set DIN/ISO sensitivity be4 ;))
08:18:16 <Serg> nice thing ;)) it can measure in dark, speed from 1 minute to 1/2000
08:18:59 <Serg> ISO 6-6400 ;)
08:19:36 <mur> brb
08:23:06 <warpzero> oh whoa
08:23:16 <warpzero> this channel has more ops besides kc5tja
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09:38:13 <TheBlueWizard> hiya all
09:39:31 <mur> hey
09:39:37 <mur> hyvää joulua, TheBlueWizard 
09:39:57 <TheBlueWizard> mur: Merry Xmas to you too :)
09:40:42 <warpzero> yo
09:40:53 <TheBlueWizard> hiya warpzero 
09:50:40 <TheBlueWizard> gotta go...will return later...bye all
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15:08:44 <TheBlueWizard> hiya all
15:26:31 <mur> terve
15:28:58 <TheBlueWizard> terve mur! :)
15:29:08 * TheBlueWizard will soon watch TV news
15:31:44 <mur> GWB says he does not read news at all
15:41:15 <TheBlueWizard> I don't care
15:43:07 <wUoNrFk> good for him
15:43:26 <wUoNrFk> there's been alot of good going on, and there's not any news coverage of that, etc.
15:45:04 <wUoNrFk> there's only so much time in the day... and he should be concerned with the news of what ppl inform him about.
15:47:29 <mur> i guess he shoudl read papers to understand more what is happening
15:48:33 <wUoNrFk> i'm quite sure he's well aware of what's happening.
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15:49:05 <wUoNrFk> i don't even bother to read the news paper.. it's filled with a bunch of holes and one sided stories and such
15:52:16 <Herkamire> I don't think he should read the paper to find out what is happening, but it might be good for him to know what the populaton is bing told.
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15:53:50 <wUoNrFk> i imagine the news he receives from his aides might be one sided as well...
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17:28:45 <kc5tja> re re
17:30:48 <warpzero> hey kc5tja
17:30:57 <warpzero> how is it going
17:31:10 * kc5tja is tired, and I have a bacterial infection in my lungs, but otherwise, I'm doing OK.
17:31:46 <warpzero> uh oh
17:31:54 <warpzero> are you taking antibiotics then
17:33:42 <TheBlueWizard> hiya kc5tja
17:33:48 <kc5tja> Well, I don't know 100% that it's bacterial.
17:34:00 <kc5tja> But all the symptoms are *identical* to when I was really sick last Christmas.
17:34:12 <kc5tja> So I'm going to take some antibiotics tonight and see if that helps any.
17:34:21 <kc5tja> If it doesn't, then it's time to see el dottore.
17:34:26 <warpzero> yeah
17:34:31 <warpzero> i never have a problem with that
17:34:45 <warpzero> my house is full of antibiotics and vaccines and doctors
17:35:18 <kc5tja> I have a major problem with it.
17:35:35 <kc5tja> I'm a fairly sickly kind of person, and I lack the finances to see a doctor.
17:36:49 <kc5tja> Though I find that regular exercise always results in higher fortitude.  I haven't gotten *majorly* sick in about one year's time, right at Christmas.  
17:37:42 <warpzero> wow
17:37:53 <warpzero> maybe your body is trying to tell you that it doesnt like christmas
17:38:26 <kc5tja> I've never liked Christmas.
17:39:18 <kc5tja> As a kid, maybe, but it's kind of lame for an adult.
17:40:14 <warpzero> My parents gave me very conflicting messages about christmas.
17:41:44 * kc5tja nods
17:41:52 <kc5tja> I don't think anyone really knows what Christmas is about anymore.
17:41:59 <kc5tja> I know I certainly don't claim to be an expert on the subject.
17:44:01 <warpzero> These days I'm so nihilistic that...
17:44:27 <warpzero> I abuse the whole christmas thing to screw with my friends really...
17:53:53 <kc5tja> I abuse it only to get time off from work.
17:53:56 <kc5tja> It didn't work this year.  :)
17:54:13 <kc5tja> While I don't work on Christmas day, I DID work today, and I have to work tomorrow.
17:59:15 <kc5tja> brb -- going to the store to pick up some more dinnerware.
17:59:18 <kc5tja> Hopefully they'll be open.
18:01:02 <warpzero> dinnerware?
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18:06:18 <TheBlueWizard> hiya Klaw
18:06:56 <Klaw> hello
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19:10:52 <kc5tja> ack
19:10:53 <kc5tja> back even
19:11:08 <kc5tja> warpzero: Yes, dinnerware, because my roommates all seem to covet my own tupperware.
19:11:24 <kc5tja> I currently have 0 (zero) (zip) (nada) (zilch) tupperware cooking bowls.
19:11:30 <kc5tja> I used to have three.
19:11:56 <kc5tja> Consequently, I'm returning to my former policy whereby all my plates are my own, and to gain access to them, they'll need a key to my room.
19:12:05 <warpzero> lol
19:12:08 <warpzero> owned
19:12:20 <warpzero> kc5tja: were you successful in your quest?
19:12:57 <kc5tja> I purchased 4 drinking glasses, a spoon/fork/knife set, and one tupperware bowl.
19:13:07 <kc5tja> Upon which I shall be etching my name in.
19:13:11 <warpzero> Ah.
19:13:17 <warpzero> Lol.
19:13:25 <warpzero> What tool will you be using for that?
19:15:19 <warpzero> Threaten to make fun on broadcast to the world.
19:15:46 * TheBlueWizard hands kc5tja a chroot key ;)
19:17:46 <kc5tja> No, I'm just going to tightly inventory all my cooking wares.
19:18:10 <kc5tja> I mean, they're not super expensive, but they DO cost money, and the thought of donating $10 to a roommate without my knowledge is anathema to me.
19:19:34 <kc5tja> This has so far happened to me twice.  Once burned, twice shy, third time it's all my fault.
19:19:39 <kc5tja> There will be no third time.
19:20:08 * warpzero feels the need to start a "defense" chant or something.
19:21:06 <kc5tja> /test
19:21:08 <kc5tja> Ahh!
19:21:09 <kc5tja> I see.
19:21:14 <warpzero> ?
19:21:18 <kc5tja> One learns something new every day.
19:21:42 <warpzero> One does not use the pronoun 'one' because it sounds stupid.
19:21:43 * kc5tja now knows how to get the / character as the very first character on an IRC line.
19:22:01 <warpzero> lol
19:22:09 <warpzero> /why?
19:22:12 <kc5tja> You are quite correct.  One uses the pronoun 'one' precisely because it is educated.
19:23:30 <warpzero> Nah, it sounds stupid.  Its a bad halfbreed of third person and it sucks... its best left to robots.
19:25:25 <kc5tja> I encourage you to take some rhetoric classes.
19:25:44 <kc5tja> One, as a pronoun above, does not explicitly refer to me in particular, but to anyone in general.
19:25:54 <kc5tja> Hence, it's perfectly adequate for the task.
19:27:08 <warpzero> I disagree.  And I have taken what amounts to rhetoric classes.
19:27:48 <kc5tja> Whatever.
19:28:06 <kc5tja> Virtually the entire English speaking community disagrees.
19:28:59 <warpzero> I am way to tired to debate about it.
19:29:07 <warpzero> I've been up for like...
19:29:12 <warpzero> A long time.
19:29:23 <kc5tja> There is no debate involved.  This is something that we will forever disagree on.
19:29:34 <kc5tja> And one will just have to get used to me using the pronoun 'one.'  :)
19:30:27 * TheBlueWizard suggests using "Thing One" as a pronoun ;-P
19:30:51 <warpzero> One thinks that python sucks too... okay maybe not really.
19:31:06 * TheBlueWizard is being silly tonight
19:31:14 <kc5tja> Thing One?
19:31:20 * TheBlueWizard thinks Python is darn good...and uses it a lot
19:31:42 <TheBlueWizard> kc5tja: a reference to "The Cat In The Hat"
19:32:01 <kc5tja> Ahh, I see.
19:32:10 <warpzero> I wish I knew pyton.
19:32:17 <warpzero> er python.
19:32:27 <warpzero> Someone should teach me python.
19:32:52 <TheBlueWizard> there is a good online tutorial on Python
19:33:13 <warpzero> I am being lazy.
19:33:47 <TheBlueWizard> if you are lazy, then you can't learn anything...duh
19:34:53 <TheBlueWizard> besides, Python is interactive...just type "python" at the shell prompt and there is a >>> prompt....type in 1+1 and you will see a 2 as its output.  Type ctrl-D to exit
19:35:45 <warpzero> I'd rather type 1 1 +
19:35:48 <warpzero> :)
19:39:14 <TheBlueWizard> well, Python is Python, NOT Forth...*sheesh*
19:39:27 * kc5tja nods
19:39:30 <TheBlueWizard> if you want to learn more about Python, go to #python
19:39:51 <warpzero> Where, I am sure, I will be told to fuck off.
19:41:08 <kc5tja> Well, with a silly attitude, sure.
19:41:29 <kc5tja> You have to establish yourself as being serious before you can be silly.  Otherwise, they'll think you're just a troll.
19:41:37 * TheBlueWizard nods
19:41:49 <warpzero> Well what if I am just a troll.
19:42:33 <kc5tja> Then you'll get booted.
19:42:41 <kc5tja> It's not rocket science.  :)
19:43:09 <warpzero> I don't know it could be one of those channels that seem to be popular around here that have no mods.
19:44:08 <kc5tja> Hmm...what am I going to do for Christmas?  Probably clean my room, then waffle about all day.
19:44:09 <TheBlueWizard> tough
19:44:37 <warpzero> Work on your little forth compiler :)
19:45:08 <kc5tja> Little is right.  Weighing in at only 25 or so screens, it's pretty small.  :)
19:45:20 <warpzero> Wow.
19:45:37 <kc5tja> (actually, I have 50 screens, but precisely half is shadow documentation)
19:45:38 <warpzero> You should shoot for bf level of tinyness.
19:46:03 <kc5tja> bf level?
19:46:12 <warpzero> brainfuck
19:46:21 <kc5tja> Nah
19:46:30 <kc5tja> There is a certain minimum level of complexity required to achieve my goals.
19:48:11 <kc5tja> I think after this Forth is done and over with, my text goal will probably be to make a ColorForth dialect based on FS/Forth.
19:50:16 <kc5tja> Though, I'm not quite sure how I would handle text strings, which is a vital requirement for my needs (I do primarily text processing).
19:52:45 <warpzero> Make a regex-like thing for forth.
19:53:34 <TheBlueWizard> regex is an overkill for Forth IMNSHO
19:54:00 <warpzero> I mean with the same purpose as regex.
19:54:06 <warpzero> But, in forth.
19:55:00 <TheBlueWizard> no, no...regex has too many "features"...and I sometimes find it a pain to try to shoehorn the matching patterns
19:55:01 <kc5tja> I don't require regex in my work.
19:55:13 <kc5tja> And if I did, I'd just link against glibc to get the regex support it has anyway.
19:59:26 <warpzero> Perl's is faster.
19:59:35 <kc5tja> So?
19:59:53 <warpzero> So nothing.
19:59:53 <wUoNrFk> was just a random useless interjection it would seem :)
20:00:00 <warpzero> Yes.
20:00:09 <warpzero> Like I said, I am very very tired.
20:01:17 <kc5tja> :)
20:06:02 <warpzero> I know you hate perl.
20:06:09 <warpzero> But it has its uses.
20:09:11 <kc5tja> I haven't used Perl since I discovered Python 1.3.
20:10:31 <warpzero> Well, I haven't discovered Python 1.3, so I still use Perl.
20:10:45 <warpzero> anyway
20:11:00 * warpzero is away: It wasn't a rock...
20:11:01 <kc5tja> To each their own.
20:11:15 <warpzero> To each his own.
20:12:50 <TheBlueWizard> To each one's own (he he)
20:13:22 <kc5tja> :)
20:14:31 <kc5tja> What truely amazes me about Forth is the very fact that it works at all.
20:14:47 <kc5tja> I mean, here I am, looking at the source code for building FS/Forth's ELF executable.
20:14:49 <TheBlueWizard> hmm?
20:15:02 <kc5tja> 50 list Screen 50 modified     
20:15:02 <kc5tja>  0 ( ELF Process Image ) -4k- hhere elfHeader h!                   
20:15:02 <kc5tja>  1                                                                 
20:15:02 <kc5tja>  2 $7F hc, 'E hc, 'L hc, 'F hc, 1 hc, 1 hc, 1 hc, 0 hc, 0 h, 0 h,  
20:15:02 <kc5tja>  3 2 2, 3 2, 1 h, ep h@ h, 0 h, 0 h, 0 h, 52 2, 32 h, 40 h, 0 2,   
20:15:03 <kc5tja>  4                                                                 
20:15:05 <kc5tja>  5 $" .text" ".text" h! hhere .text h!                             
20:15:07 <kc5tja>  6  targetspace hhere targetbytes hmove targetbytes hallot         
20:15:09 <kc5tja>  7 $" .shstrtab" ".shstrtab" h! hhere .shstrtab h!                 
20:15:11 <kc5tja>  8   shstrtab hhere $here hmove   $here hallot                     
20:15:13 <kc5tja>  9                                                                 
20:15:15 <kc5tja> 10 pheaders   targetsize targetbytes targetorg .text h@ phdr,      
20:15:17 <kc5tja> 11 sections   dummy                                                
20:15:19 <kc5tja> 12            targetbytes .text h@ targetorg 7 ".text" h@ progbits 
20:15:21 <kc5tja> 13            $here .shstrtab h@ 0 ".shstrtab" h@ strtab           
20:15:23 <kc5tja> 14                                                                 
20:15:25 <kc5tja> 15                                                                 
20:15:27 <kc5tja> That's it.  The whole dang thing fits on 13 lines of source.
20:15:30 <wUoNrFk> looks like silly googlybyte.
20:15:35 <kc5tja> (of course, when it goes to support dynamic linking, it'll take two screens, but still!)
20:16:52 <kc5tja> I have about three screens of source which implement the words necessary to enable the above to run.  But the above is "the program" to build the ELF executable header in memory.
20:16:55 <TheBlueWizard> ah...nice
20:17:06 <kc5tja> (I then have a turnkey definition word which saves the image right to disk.)
20:18:04 <kc5tja> wUoNrFk: Well, you need to know how an ELF header is arranged in the file, and also the fact that hc, h, h!, and related h-words are host renamings of your all-time classic c, , ! and whatnot.
20:18:19 <kc5tja> (this is because I redefine c, , and friends to work with the target binary image, not the host image)
20:18:42 <kc5tja> This is declarative programming at its best, I think.
20:21:42 <TheBlueWizard> um...I don't see how that would be considered a declarative programming, since by its definition one *declares* a relationship and structure, but nothing about the procedure, and these code do have procedure inside
20:23:24 <kc5tja> There is a pure, 1:1 relationship between the source and the generated ELF image.
20:24:51 <TheBlueWizard> I guess I'm thinking too much of Prolog
20:25:09 <kc5tja> Functional programming languages are also declarative in nature.  :)
20:27:07 <kc5tja> At any rate, it just intrigues me immensely that code like the above could ever work.
20:27:12 <TheBlueWizard> um...I don't recall it being described that way
20:27:28 <kc5tja> Most other programming languages couldn't even approach that degree of expressivity.
20:27:31 <kc5tja> Including Lisp.  :)
20:28:00 <kc5tja> fn factorial(n) = n * factorial(n-1)
20:28:04 <kc5tja>    factorial(0) = 1
20:28:23 <kc5tja> That's pretty declarative if you ask me.  :)
20:29:44 <TheBlueWizard> oh ok
20:30:41 <kc5tja> And then there's how they define datatypes (which I absolutely love, BTW).
20:31:14 <kc5tja> type GfxPrimitive = NoPrimitive | Line(x1,y1,x2,y2) | Circle(x,y,r) | ...etc..
20:32:46 <kc5tja> As a consequence of this technique, FPLs lack a global "null" concept.
20:32:59 <kc5tja> In fact, unless you declare it explicitly, there is no concept of a null at all.
20:33:36 <kc5tja> In the above example, NoPrimitive is a null value, but unlike in C, Pascal, Lisp, or other languages (Forth included), it's value is still distinctly of type GfxPrimitive.  Hence, it's still 100% type safe.  :)
20:34:27 <TheBlueWizard> I see...nice
20:34:47 <kc5tja> Yep.  :)
20:35:12 * kc5tja should learn a FPL of some kind someday.  I hear Ocaml is a *nice* language, as is Haskell.
20:36:08 <TheBlueWizard> yeah...me too
21:08:04 <TheBlueWizard> gotta go to bed...Merry Xmas to all
21:08:08 <TheBlueWizard> bye all
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22:54:00 <chrisrw> y0
22:54:45 <chrisrw> :)
22:54:50 <chrisrw> ....
22:55:01 <chrisrw> not too many people here today
22:55:17 <chrisrw> no samuel, no mark, no jason, no matt, no tbw
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