00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.12.19
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03:46:01 * warp0x00 is away: I bust my style, and my style is hardcore.
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06:52:26 <Robert> Hi
07:09:12 <I440r> :)
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07:17:08 <I440r> <I440r> lol
07:17:08 <I440r> <ree> girls are a problem
07:17:08 <I440r> <ree> so have you ever used Forth in a pickup line? :)
07:17:08 <I440r> <I440r> good thunking!!!!!!!!!!!!!
07:17:08 <I440r> <I440r> yours my place or!
07:19:49 <mur> :)
07:20:15 <mur> terve jospeh
07:21:04 <ree> hehe
07:23:28 <Robert> Heh
07:23:31 <Robert> You're sick :P
07:24:50 <mur> Robert uses assembly source: "mov ax, [my] test jnz [yours]"
07:25:11 <mur> or?
07:25:12 <mur> :)
07:25:13 <Robert> Right.
07:41:47 <I440r> lol
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08:29:17 <madgarden> Anyone seen RotK yet?
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09:21:16 <ree> Robert!
09:32:11 <mur> beroot
09:34:33 <ree> jukka.. do you do ANY programming anymore? hehe
09:37:28 <mur> not really :/
09:39:29 <ree> you suck :P
09:40:33 <mur> i was coding CSS and html one day.. i dind't remember how to hack :D
09:42:23 <ree> heh
09:42:30 * ree shakes his head in disgust
09:42:36 <ree> so.. pathetic :(
09:57:25 <Robert> :(
10:01:12 <ree> :~(
10:01:51 <ree> 8^)
10:01:54 <ree> heh
10:02:08 <ree> so I'll be embedding forth in my os too rob
10:02:24 <ree> actually I'll be using forth as the integrated assembler/editor 
10:02:39 <ree> I figure it beats doing it with vi+fasm/nasm
10:05:35 <Herkamire> ree cool :)
10:05:41 <Herkamire> ree: what sort of os are you making?
10:06:07 <ree> distributed network os
10:06:27 <ree> specialized for running subsystems that require transparent distributed networking support hehe
10:06:43 <ree> I'll be using it for powering a few networks I have planned
10:06:45 <Herkamire> like raytracing?
10:06:55 <ree> sure, raytracing is one application
10:07:27 * Herkamire would use a distributed network to render fractals and eventually raytracings
10:08:20 <Herkamire> ree: what cool distributed apps are you thinking of making?
10:08:20 <ree> I'll be using it for a visual development system
10:08:49 <Herkamire> using the network to build large projects quickly?
10:08:57 <ree> each instruction can be mapped to the communication system.. so that all operations are broadcast across the network
10:09:29 <ree> then I can easily add more computers to do work like visualizing what is happening in realtime as well as storing it in databases
10:09:33 <ree> all transparently
10:09:58 <ree> none of it needs to be recoded to add ability.. you just add another machine or cpu or subsystem task
10:09:58 <Herkamire> I see a big red flag that says LATENCY
10:10:03 <ree> yeah
10:10:24 <ree> latency will be a big issue.. but of course you do not have to have such network connections for final runs and also it will be infinitely customizable
10:10:35 <ree> like you'll be able to disconnect the operation or have it not be broadcast
10:10:37 <Herkamire> nifty
10:11:12 <ree> it's one single abstraction layer.. I got rid of all of the other performance problems 
10:11:24 <ree> this is just the one thing it can do that will scale infinitely well hehe
10:11:31 <Herkamire> I think to take advantage of the computing power of other machines, you need to have sub-tasks that run (at least mostly) independantly.
10:11:33 <ree> well.. as far as networking hardware will take it
10:11:53 <ree> performance and scalability were the two main goals
10:12:01 <Herkamire> cool
10:12:18 <ree> it's extremely simple except for the com protocol
10:12:47 <Herkamire> are you planning to be cross-platform?
10:13:20 <ree> not really.. but it might happen
10:13:36 <ree> this is mostly for my own internal use but if it is successful I can see it being ported on an as-needed basis
10:14:01 <ree> I don't know of any other purely distributed networking systems focused on just performance and scalability
10:14:18 <ree> my main focus right now is trying to get it going on x86-64
10:14:24 <Herkamire> you have a LAN at home you are playing with?
10:14:29 <ree> I'd like it to be used for simulations and other stuff
10:14:34 <ree> yeah
10:14:43 <ree> but I can't afford a x86-64 cluster yet
10:16:20 <Herkamire> hehe :)
10:17:42 <ree> so x86 right now
10:17:49 <Herkamire> I was sorta toying with the idea of writing a program that would lay dorment on peoples machines accross the internet untill they stopped using them. Then it would start listening on a port (or stop rejecting requests on it) for computation assignments.
10:17:55 <ree> the os itself is tiny.. not a problem :)
10:18:07 <Herkamire> ree: you have it booting?
10:18:11 <ree> yeah
10:18:15 <ree> no network code yet though
10:18:19 <Herkamire> then coool
10:18:19 <ree> which is the entire system.. hehe
10:18:29 <Herkamire> did you write from scratch?
10:20:09 <ree> yeah
10:20:19 <Herkamire> nice :)
10:20:37 <Herkamire> that's the only thing I'm jeleous about x86 is that there's all these people writting little OSes for it.
10:21:08 <Herkamire> I can't find any tiny OSes for PPC
10:31:52 <ree> hehe
10:33:17 <ree> probably because of cost/availability of docs
10:33:20 <ree> heh
10:33:24 <ree> futhin heh
10:33:27 <ree> grr
10:33:30 <ree> wtf was that?
10:33:38 <ree> that was an entire mismessage
10:33:45 <ree> hadn't done one of those before
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10:34:49 <ree>  <ree> heh
10:34:49 <ree>  <ree> futhin heh
10:34:49 <ree>  <ree> grr
10:34:49 <ree>  <ree> wtf was that?
10:34:49 <ree>  <ree> that was an entire mismessage
10:34:53 <ree> AHH
10:34:57 <ree> a misquery paste!
10:35:04 <ree> new one too!
10:35:06 <ree> hahah
10:35:07 <futhin> lol!!
10:35:09 <ree> I'm on a roll
10:35:24 <ree> what other irc feature can I violate?
10:35:25 <futhin> you're high
10:35:47 <futhin> irc, where nothing is inviolatable
10:35:49 <ree> on sickness
10:36:07 <ree> 3rd time in 2 months that I have had the flu
10:36:33 <futhin> sounds like fun
10:37:52 <futhin> testing
10:37:55 <futhin> ooooh!!!
10:48:05 <Herkamire> hey! maconlinux finally has SMP support :)
10:48:34 * Herkamire tries to decide if he's going to recompile his kernel with loadable module support so he can try it
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11:43:57 <fridge> for someone whos leaving c.l.f and never coming back, jeff fox sure is posting a lot
11:44:15 <tathi> :)
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11:47:33 <futhin> yeah he should leave CLF and come here :P
11:49:59 <futhin> <futhin> actually lately over the last two months i've been pondering on the problem of control
11:49:59 <futhin> <futhin> we humans feel the urge to control everything around us
11:49:59 <futhin> <futhin> for example, i wanted to become ruler of the world
11:49:59 <futhin> <futhin> simply because i want to control everythign and "fix" everything
11:49:59 <futhin> <futhin> but lately i've been realizing that the vast majority of problems are CAUSED by control
11:50:00 <futhin> <futhin> that decontrolling is the best way to go
11:50:02 <futhin> <futhin> maybe it applies to coding standards, maybe it doesn't
11:50:04 <futhin> <futhin> but Forth died when the ANS standard was put out
11:50:06 <futhin> <futhin> there was like 200,000 forthers with the FIG (forth interest group) and then it dwindled to 2,000 after ANS came out
11:50:09 <futhin> <futhin> heh
11:50:11 <futhin> <futhin> all because Elizabeth Rather is focused on controlling the language
11:50:13 <futhin> <futhin> i think it's fascinating how many things would actually benefit from less control
11:56:28 <wUoNrFk> control offers a stable way for two people to communicate.
11:57:11 <ree> I MUST CONTROL YOU
12:00:24 <madgarden> Forth by nature defies control.
12:01:49 <futhin> wtf? control offers a stable way for two people to communicate?  heh
12:03:03 <fridge> do C people bitch as much about C99? =)
12:03:10 <chandler> yes
12:03:15 <wUoNrFk> hm
12:03:50 <MysticOne> futhin: standards?
12:04:06 <MysticOne> futhin: can you imagine the chaos we'd be in were it not for standards on so many things?
12:04:27 <fridge> we'd be in chaos.
12:04:43 <MysticOne> fridge: exactly
12:04:55 <MysticOne> sure, you lose a bit of flexibility by standardizing
12:05:03 <MysticOne> but, you gain compatibility and continuity
12:05:12 <futhin> just because chaos has negative conotations doesn't mean it should
12:05:14 <MysticOne> and there's nothing to stop people from coding in non-ANS forth
12:05:53 <madgarden> When there's a standard, most people feel obligated to follow it.
12:06:02 <ree> standards suck
12:06:02 <MysticOne> madgarden: sure, because there's a reason there's a standard
12:06:05 <MysticOne> it ensures continuity
12:06:07 <MysticOne> let's see ...
12:06:09 <fridge> except corporations with a vested interest
12:06:14 <MysticOne> what do we have right now that we depend on standards for
12:06:15 <MysticOne> hmmm...
12:06:18 <MysticOne> electricity comes to mind
12:06:22 <ree> the only good standard is the human standard.. which breaks standards by default
12:06:23 <MysticOne> telephones
12:06:24 <MysticOne> computers
12:06:30 <chandler> Measurement
12:06:32 <MysticOne> our spoken language (which is a standard of sorts)
12:06:34 <MysticOne> yes, measurement
12:06:43 <MysticOne> time
12:06:47 <MysticOne> (also with measurement I guess)
12:07:06 <MysticOne> cars
12:07:07 <MysticOne> fuel
12:07:15 <futhin> progress occurs when we break standards
12:07:17 <MysticOne> food (though that's more regulatory, but still...)
12:07:18 <madgarden> Software is a lot more organic than most of these things.
12:07:22 <MysticOne> futhin: progress occurs when you innovate
12:07:34 <futhin> innovating is about breaking standards, rules, etc 
12:07:42 <fridge> spoken language isn't much of a standard
12:07:52 <chandler> nonsense. changing measurement systems wouldn't be an "innovation"
12:07:59 <chandler> sometimes it's just substituting one equal for another
12:08:01 <fridge> its more like forth, a slow moving core with lots of people fiddling at the edges
12:08:12 <chandler> you have to question, /why/ are we breaking the standard?
12:08:17 <futhin> good point fridge, spoken language just came together from randomness and words are continually redefined by context/usage
12:08:26 <chandler> but I agree; forth is more like a spoken language
12:08:32 <MysticOne> futhin: which makes new standards
12:08:37 <wUoNrFk> have you come up with a better solution for everything, or does it just fit a particular need.
12:08:51 <MysticOne> futhin: look at C and then C++
12:09:00 <MysticOne> I mean, C is standard
12:09:04 <MysticOne> C++ is similar to C, but is different
12:09:08 <MysticOne> but also has a standard
12:09:20 <MysticOne> someone else can innovate or change things and then you get C#, for example
12:09:28 <MysticOne> there's nothing wrong with not going with the standard
12:09:37 <futhin> i think forth is anti-programming language, it's silly to make a forth standard heh
12:10:00 <MysticOne> futhin: and english is a constantly changing language, but we still have a dictionary
12:10:12 <madgarden> fo shizzy!
12:10:41 <chandler> of course, sometimes people don't understand what the fu^H^Hheck you're saying
12:10:57 <fridge> case in point
12:11:01 <fridge> what does fo shizzy mean?
12:11:03 <futhin> standards are the steps on the path of progress. they aren't the end all be all, the journey is the thing
12:11:21 <chandler> MysticOne: then perhaps a dictionary (pun not intended) would have been better...
12:11:42 <MysticOne> futhin: but I don't understand what you're upset about
12:11:43 <futhin> i believe the dictionary is kinda stupid
12:12:05 <madgarden> fridge: I don't know, but all the cool kids are saying it. ;P
12:12:15 <fridge> oh, damn
12:12:17 <futhin> words are defined by context/usage, not by the dictionary..  qutie a fwe people get confused by this
12:12:19 <MysticOne> futhin: you're angry because people chose a standard?
12:12:20 <fridge> that must mean I'm not cool anymore
12:12:23 <fridge> I was cool once
12:12:32 <fridge> honest!
12:12:33 <madgarden> Heh.
12:12:34 <futhin> mysticone: how come you think i'm upset or angry at all?
12:12:35 <MysticOne> futhin: sure, and standards are usually determined the same way ... then someone codifies it and people agree with it
12:12:38 <madgarden> So the standard has changed.
12:12:44 <MysticOne> futhin: because you're going on and on about how standards are wrong
12:12:44 <chandler> futhin: oh, bullshit. words are /learned/ by context and usage
12:12:51 <chandler> but that doesn't mean that they are /defined/ that way
12:13:13 <chandler> definitions shift from stable point to stable point; at each stable point the word can indeed be defined
12:13:17 <futhin> chandler: words are redefined everytime you use them
12:13:32 <futhin> even if the definition doesn't change perceptibly
12:13:35 <chandler> BULLSHIT. if that were the case, then we would not be able to understand each other.
12:13:46 * MysticOne nods to chandler
12:14:12 <futhin> we can understand each other by learning each other's language on the fly thru context
12:14:16 <MysticOne> futhin: I'm not saying that everyone should follow standards, to the letter, all the time, and never deviate
12:14:31 <chandler> futhin: really? I've never met you before, yet I understand what you're saying (although I disagree)
12:14:45 <MysticOne> futhin: but if you would like to remain compatible and maintain continuity throughout a process, you have to follow standards
12:14:46 <futhin> your language and my language are similar to english
12:14:57 <MysticOne> if you want futhinForth, by all means, you're allowed to and able to do that
12:14:58 <futhin> but certainly we understand certain words differently
12:15:12 <chandler> your language and my language /are/ english. We are using the same words to connote the same "stable points" in linguistic space
12:15:22 <futhin> we transmit our understanding of given words by HOW we use the words
12:15:28 <MysticOne> oh please
12:15:29 <MysticOne> jesus christ
12:15:35 <chandler> any other "understanding" of those words is quite simply erroneous
12:15:49 <futhin> am i even talking to forthers at all?
12:15:54 <futhin> forthers would understand this paradigm
12:16:24 <MysticOne> futhin: well, if being a forther means abandoning reality, I guess I'm not
12:16:35 <MysticOne> anyway ...
12:16:37 <chandler> I'm a computer scientist first.
12:16:38 * MysticOne goes back to work
12:16:39 <futhin> do you understand the word paradigm?
12:16:47 <chandler> yeah. $0.20
12:16:48 <ree> it does mean abandoning commercial reality.. :)
12:16:58 <futhin> heh
12:17:00 <MysticOne> ree: perhaps ... but then we still have social reality
12:17:04 <MysticOne> laws, for example
12:17:09 <futhin> fuck social reality
12:17:15 <MysticOne> jesus christ
12:17:15 <futhin> Reality with a capital R is what matters
12:17:16 <chandler> "social reality" - argh. I'm going to shoot the next person who says it
12:17:23 <ree> hehe
12:17:24 <MysticOne> futhin: what do you do for a living again?
12:17:29 * futhin shoots chandler :P
12:17:36 <chandler> futhin: /next/ person
12:17:46 <ree> mystic, you're starting to sound like a south park episode :)
12:17:58 <ree> jesus christ!
12:18:01 <MysticOne> futhin: it's ham, isn't it?!
12:18:05 <futhin> jesus christ!
12:18:05 <ree> What's that Mister Slave?
12:18:08 <ree> jesus christ!
12:18:10 <futhin> !
12:18:11 <MysticOne> ree: hehehe
12:18:14 <ree> hehe
12:18:14 <MysticOne> jeethus chris
12:18:19 <ree> yeah
12:18:20 <MysticOne> anyway ...
12:18:22 <ree> with a lisp
12:18:28 <chandler> ok. I'm leaving while I don't understand anything
12:18:36 <ree> good way to learn chandler
12:18:42 <ree> that was my approach to school
12:18:48 <futhin> why should we understand anything at all?
12:18:52 <futhin> that's just a control fetish
12:19:13 <MysticOne> futhin: if you say so
12:19:17 <futhin> that's why most people are closed minded
12:19:21 <MysticOne> futhin: I think you're misguided
12:19:24 <MysticOne> futhin: but go do what you want
12:19:43 <MysticOne> futhin: it's your decision, and has always been your decision, and will continue to be your decision
12:19:46 <MysticOne> be a non-conformist 
12:19:55 <MysticOne> just like all the other non-conformists :)
12:20:02 * MysticOne goes back to work
12:20:14 <ree> heh
12:20:17 <ree> another south park episode
12:20:25 <ree> last weeks
12:20:33 * chandler thinks futhin is verging on solipsism
12:21:10 <ree> is that swollen lip syndrome?
12:21:39 <chandler> look it up, if you believe in dictionaries
12:21:41 <futhin> mysticone: our conversation is kinda screwed up because i wasn't arguing a particular point, but you wanted to argue with me, so it kinda became some weird thread that made no sense
12:21:43 <ree> a theory holding that the self can know nothing but its own modifications and that the self is the only existent thing
12:21:52 <ree> I never knew a dictionary could be so vague
12:21:55 <futhin> chandler: ree is a dictionary whore
12:22:00 <ree> yeah I am
12:22:09 <ree> but that word makes me lose faith in dictionaries
12:22:25 <futhin> eh
12:22:29 <futhin> that word is a philosophical word
12:22:34 <ree> ahh, that is why
12:22:35 <futhin> in defense of the dictionary
12:22:50 <ree> ok, I won't burn merriam just yet
12:23:26 <futhin> but ultimately all words are philosophical words, and a ton of them appear out of thin air from context
12:23:29 <futhin> it's a beautiful thing
12:23:54 <chandler> you are confusing construction and learning with definition
12:24:16 <chandler> how the word arose or how people learn it does not impact its description
12:25:20 <futhin> > we never stop learning the meanings of words
12:25:20 <futhin> <chandler:#forth> how the word arose or how people learn it does not impact
12:25:20 <futhin> +its description
12:25:20 <futhin> *ree* yeah.. when people get hostile I lose my mind too
12:25:20 <futhin> > every time we hear/read words, we are learning their meanings
12:25:21 <futhin> > the definition of words change over time
12:25:23 <futhin> > like over a hundred years
12:25:32 <ree> > wrong channel
12:25:35 <ree> > dick licker
12:25:53 <ree> heh
12:26:01 <ree> you copy pasted my hostile comment
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12:26:05 <ree> I feel violated
12:26:11 <futhin> heh
12:26:20 <futhin> sorry
12:26:23 <futhin> i was lazy
12:26:43 <ree> what if that were a super secret pass phrase?
12:27:17 <futhin> i thought we decided that the secret pass phrase was gonna come in the box of cereal along with the decoder ring
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14:44:42 <TheBlueWizard> hiya all
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14:47:54 <TheBlueWizard> hiya aktnot
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14:53:34 <ree> hey TBW
14:53:52 <TheBlueWizard> hiya ree! ltns!
14:54:03 <ree> yeah bud
14:54:20 <TheBlueWizard> :)
14:57:16 <aktnot> hey
14:57:30 <ree> hey aktnot
14:57:38 <aktnot> hello ;)
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15:03:40 <warp0x00> hey dudes
15:03:59 <TheBlueWizard> hiya I440r!!!! :)
15:04:01 <TheBlueWizard> hiya warp0x00
15:04:13 <I440r> hi :)
15:04:21 <warp0x00> ssup
15:05:05 <ree> hey guys
15:11:37 <mur> hey girls
15:11:38 <mur> ;)
15:12:06 <ree> hey it
15:13:05 <TheBlueWizard> terve mur...got enough rest yet? :)
15:20:19 <mur> got up 4 pm
15:20:43 <TheBlueWizard> you slept practically all day, eh?
15:20:55 <ree> heh, I wish I did
15:24:34 <mur> well
15:24:47 <mur> http://movnet.org/misc/stupid/
15:24:48 <mur> :)
15:30:04 --- join: chrisrw (~chris@ca-cmrilo-cuda1-c3b-124.vnnyca.adelphia.net) joined #forth
15:33:34 <chrisrw> y0
15:35:42 <mur> hey
15:35:42 <ree> hey chrisrw
15:36:38 <TheBlueWizard> hiya chrisrw
15:38:15 <chrisrw> hey :))
15:38:36 <chrisrw> #forth is growing :)
15:43:28 --- quit: fridge (Remote closed the connection)
15:45:38 <TheBlueWizard> um...I guess it crests :)
15:45:51 <I440r> #forth is growing
15:45:57 --- quit: aktnot ("leaving")
15:46:45 <TheBlueWizard> I440r: well?
15:46:47 <TheBlueWizard> :)
15:52:14 --- join: Sonarman (~matt@adsl-66-124-255-96.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth
15:52:53 <I440r> well i gotta go
15:52:53 <chrisrw> y0 Matt
15:52:55 <I440r> ill bbl
15:52:59 <chrisrw> bye Mark
15:53:01 --- quit: I440r ("bbl")
15:53:37 <Sonarman> hiya Chris
15:58:42 <TheBlueWizard> hiya Sonarman
16:00:33 <chrisrw> :)
16:00:38 <Sonarman> hi wiz
16:01:18 <mur> tbw, mitä on tapahtunut? :)
16:03:09 <chrisrw> tervee mur
16:05:59 <TheBlueWizard> hmm...lue slashdot:ta, juuri lopetan (watching) TV-uutiset, (lurking various channels) :)
16:06:44 * TheBlueWizard has problem with trying to translate "watching", "lurking" :)
16:11:09 --- quit: warp0x00 (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
16:12:11 --- join: fridge (~fridge@dsl-203-33-164-75.NSW.netspace.net.au) joined #forth
16:14:09 <TheBlueWizard> hiya fridge
16:16:17 <fridge> hi
16:16:23 <chrisrw> y0
16:16:32 <chrisrw> y0 freezer :)0
16:16:45 <fridge> just plugged in this new shiny kernel
16:16:52 <chrisrw> 2.6? :))
16:17:10 <futhin> it seems like the most common activity here is saying hi to ppl
16:17:20 <mur> hmm
16:18:18 <fridge> yahuh
16:18:42 --- quit: Herkamire ("leaving")
16:19:03 <TheBlueWizard> mur: do you understand what I said? just wondering
16:19:32 <mur> oh
16:19:33 <futhin> 14:37:26 <ree> why aren't there ANY girls on freenode
16:19:34 <futhin> 14:37:53 <futhin> there was actually a girl forther on #forth for awhile
16:19:34 <futhin> 14:38:09 <futhin> #forth gets all the girls, w00t! 
16:19:38 <mur> hm
16:19:47 <mur> #freeciv has
16:19:54 <mur> :)
16:20:00 <futhin> ooh
16:20:05 <mur> wont tell who are
16:20:05 <fridge> all the chicks moved to oftc
16:20:08 <fridge> didn't cha hear
16:20:15 <chrisrw> .....
16:20:16 <futhin> oftc?
16:20:21 <chrisrw> Suzanna?
16:20:28 <chrisrw> why is she goon? :(
16:20:38 <mur> TheBlueWizard: sure can undersatnd
16:20:40 <Sonarman> yeah, she was cool
16:20:56 <TheBlueWizard> futhin: oftc is an experimental IRC net
16:21:03 <mur> but there are fe3w things one might want to fix in that sentence :)
16:21:04 <TheBlueWizard> mur: thanks :)
16:21:08 <futhin> the anonymous one?
16:21:16 <mur> to watch = katsoa
16:21:28 <TheBlueWizard> ok
16:21:30 <mur> to watch after = vartioida (guard) 
16:21:42 <mur> tarkkailla (surveillance)
16:22:02 <TheBlueWizard> I saw that in the dictionary...good thing I decided not to use that word :)
16:22:13 <TheBlueWizard> ok
16:22:46 <mur> juuri doenst come before verb very usually
16:23:11 <mur> even though word order does not matter much to understanding in finnish
16:24:43 <TheBlueWizard> ok...so I would say: katsoin juuri TV-uutista (I just finished watching TV news)...right?
16:25:15 <mur> uutisia
16:25:15 <futhin> so how about that forth thing huh?
16:25:23 <futhin> whaddya think about forth? eh?
16:25:32 <mur> uutisista = from news, then there shoudl be what you watched from it
16:26:51 <TheBlueWizard> this -nen thing is complicated...-nen, -set, -sta (oh I now see...singular, not plural...ok), ...I haven't practice all forms of plural versions yet
16:28:13 <fridge> futhin: a lot of freenode server sponsors got annoyed by the way freenode was being run and took their servers and joined oftc, which has more open policies
16:28:34 <mur> hmm
16:28:39 <mur> i have friend as ircop there
16:28:45 <mur> irc friend
16:29:03 <mur> .. its been some year since last time seen him
16:30:50 <MysticOne> fridge: I don't think it was a lot ... I can think of, let's see
16:30:56 <MysticOne> one... maybe two
16:31:07 <futhin> freshmeat channels went to oftc
16:31:39 <TheBlueWizard> so oftc is now active?
16:31:46 <MysticOne> has been for a while
16:50:27 <TheBlueWizard> gotta go...bye all
16:50:37 <mur> moi
16:50:53 <TheBlueWizard> moi mur :)
16:51:02 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth
17:43:23 --- quit: chandler ("Reconnecting")
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18:06:34 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@66-91-231-74.san.rr.com) joined #forth
18:06:34 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja
18:07:19 <kc5tja> Greetings.
18:09:27 <MysticOne> heya kc
18:40:57 --- join: warp0x00 (~warpzero@dsl.142.mt.onewest.net) joined #forth
19:03:59 --- quit: ree (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
19:05:40 --- join: jwm (~jwm@ns.fasthost.net) joined #forth
19:06:05 --- nick: jwm -> ree
19:54:01 <chrisrw> y0 re
19:56:02 <kc5tja> re
19:56:36 <chrisrw> hey kc5tja!
19:56:38 <chrisrw> :)
19:56:49 <chrisrw> hows it hanging?
19:57:19 <kc5tja> It's hanging.
19:57:25 <chrisrw> aww :(
20:09:33 <warp0x00> kc5tja: sup?
20:10:48 <kc5tja> Nothing.
20:11:00 <kc5tja> Just helping someone who is interested in hacking on qm with me.
20:11:09 <kc5tja> Though myself, I'm not yet ready to implement the next piece.
20:14:12 <chrisrw> !!!
20:14:14 <chrisrw> Ah
20:14:15 <chrisrw> My
20:14:16 <chrisrw> Good
20:14:21 <chrisrw> ***
20:14:24 <chrisrw> Oh
20:14:25 <chrisrw> My
20:14:27 <chrisrw> God!
20:14:37 <chrisrw> i wanna hac on qm :((
20:15:00 <kc5tja> There's not much to hack on, but much to actually *create*.
20:15:28 <kc5tja> You'll need to use GNU/Arch to access the archive, you'll need a copy of nuweb to generate the sources, and a version of CUT 2.3 to support the unit tests.
20:16:53 <kc5tja> Right now, the only piece of qm software that actually works is the object model.
20:16:58 <kc5tja> And that's it.
20:17:04 <chrisrw> ............................................................................?
20:17:12 <kc5tja> It lacks the filesystem interface, it lacks the IFF file support, it lacks object persistence engine, et. al.
20:17:18 <chrisrw> eerr
20:17:42 <kc5tja> Yeah, exactly.  This is why I didn't want to open development up.  Lots of questions from people who are not familiar with how I set the project up.
20:17:47 <chrisrw> time for you to send me an email about what and how etc.
20:18:09 <kc5tja> Or you can just wait for me to set up the Wiki site for it.  :)
20:18:21 <kc5tja> (where I'll include links to the software you need to develop qm)
20:18:36 <chrisrw> do it now? :)
20:18:51 <chrisrw> i hate this keyboard
20:18:59 <kc5tja> I'm probably going to do it later tonight.
20:19:21 --- join: I440r (~mark4@12-160.lctv-a5.cablelynx.com) joined #forth
20:19:31 <kc5tja> Having both you and the other fellow interested in hacking on qm requires me to better coordinate communication.  And with me at work a lot, I can't be on IRC to answer your questions.  Wiki, I think, is the best way to handle this situation.
20:19:49 <chrisrw> Hi Mark :))
20:20:03 <chrisrw> kc5tja: yeah.
20:20:08 <chrisrw> kc5tja: C, right?
20:20:29 <kc5tja> Yep.  Plain vanilla C.
20:20:45 * I440r just had handgun training so i can get florida permit
20:21:00 <I440r> shot 50 rounds, scored 235
20:21:10 <I440r> 225++ is expert
20:21:28 <I440r> i would have scored higher but it was cold :/
20:21:36 <I440r> 0 misses btw
20:21:41 <chrisrw> !!
20:21:43 <chrisrw> wow
20:21:48 <kc5tja> Nice.
20:21:56 <chrisrw> I dont wanna piss YOU off :))
20:21:58 <kc5tja> brb.
20:22:28 <I440r> being annoyed with someone is not grounds for the use of deady force lkol
20:22:33 <chrisrw> lol
20:22:35 <chrisrw> :)
20:23:04 <I440r> however - that is not to say that if you piss me off that you are safe :P
20:23:52 <ree> yes.. i440r has one mean momma
20:23:55 <chrisrw> :P :))
20:24:05 <ree> and he's not afraid to use her!
20:24:18 <chrisrw> I like old women.
20:24:26 <chrisrw> Because when you do them
20:24:34 <chrisrw> You don't need good Aim
20:24:41 <ree> aren't you like 11 years old?
20:24:43 <chrisrw> Any wrinkle well do :))
20:24:46 <chrisrw> !!!
20:24:57 <ree> are you abused by your grandmother?
20:24:59 <ree> heh
20:25:02 <chrisrw> ree: 16.58 years!
20:25:05 <ree> or I guess great grandmother
20:25:12 <chrisrw> !
20:25:14 <ree> grandmother is probably around 35?
20:25:17 <chrisrw> bastard :))
20:25:18 <ree> hehe
20:25:22 <ree> j/t
20:26:33 <chrisrw> aaaaanyway
20:26:42 <chrisrw> DNOS is gonna r0x0r
20:26:49 <ree> yeah
20:26:59 <ree> hopefully forth will help speed things along
20:27:21 * chrisrw insists on STC with isforth-lik dialect :))
20:27:30 <ree> STC?
20:27:37 <ree> is that sexually transmitted?
20:28:06 <Sonarman> yeah, but it doesn't require docolon and crap
20:28:52 <chrisrw> :)
20:29:04 <chrisrw> ree: I goot a link for you, hold oon
20:29:53 <chrisrw> http://www.zetetics.com/bj/papers/
20:30:01 <chrisrw> read Moving Forth
20:31:15 <ree> thanks 
20:31:45 <chrisrw> its a very very very very very very very very very very very very very good seeries :))
20:31:46 <ree> is the forth guide anygood?
20:31:51 <ree> http://www.theforthsource.com/guidei.html
20:32:30 <ree> can we call our forth CamelToe?
20:32:41 <ree> use britney spear's crotch as a logo?
20:32:56 <ree> play off of camelforth
20:33:06 <chrisrw> bwaha
20:33:10 <chrisrw> No!
20:33:13 <chrisrw> :P
20:36:08 <chrisrw> hey Mark?
20:36:17 <chrisrw>                    HEX
20:36:17 <chrisrw>                    : NOP,   90 C, ;
20:36:27 <chrisrw> would that work? :))
20:37:25 <I440r> no :P
20:37:30 <chrisrw> aww :(
20:37:31 <I440r> heh
20:37:35 <chrisrw> what WOULD?
20:37:38 <I440r> dont change base its bad form
20:37:43 <I440r> it would work i was messin
20:37:46 <I440r> but better would be
20:37:48 <chrisrw> oh
20:37:50 <chrisrw> :))
20:37:54 <I440r> : nop $90 c, ;
20:38:05 <I440r> and nop, is WRONG - its nop <--
20:38:12 <chrisrw> !!
20:38:14 <chrisrw> no!
20:38:23 <chrisrw> it is nop, <--
20:38:32 * I440r thwaps chrisrw
20:38:40 <chrisrw> !!
20:38:53 <chrisrw> nop, loodsb, etc.
20:39:03 <I440r> no
20:39:08 <chrisrw> asm mnemnoonic + ,
20:39:13 <chrisrw> Yes!
20:39:15 <I440r> nope
20:39:18 <I440r> i win
20:39:24 <chrisrw> It makes the most sense
20:39:37 <I440r> no its a superfluous character
20:39:45 <ree> hehe
20:39:46 <I440r> why force someone to hit comma all the time
20:39:52 <I440r> it adds nothing
20:39:58 <I440r> except extra visual clutter
20:40:07 <ree> instruction dest, <-- (,) source
20:40:24 <ree> , is never after an instruction
20:40:24 <I440r> why not add a _&^$%$^ to the front of every mneumonic
20:40:36 <ree> but I agree.. screw the comma
20:40:36 <I440r> mov ax, [ blah ]
20:40:44 <I440r> mov [ bllah] ax
20:40:44 <ree> I'd rather a tab instead
20:40:56 <ree> mov    ax    4
20:40:59 * chrisrw whacks Jeo and Mark
20:40:59 * I440r thwaps ree
20:41:11 <chrisrw> AOEEUUI,EUIDHTNS
20:41:13 <I440r> no tabs no comma :P
20:41:13 * ree whacks off
20:41:14 <chrisrw> !!!!
20:41:24 <ree> if you can't ignore tabs that is your loss bitch
20:41:26 <ree> :)
20:41:27 <chrisrw> : blah nop, next ;
20:41:34 <ree> <-- likes his tabs and newlines
20:41:37 <I440r> neway ima tired. i got a gun to clean too :/
20:41:45 * ree futhin hehe
20:41:51 * ree futhin fucking script's fault
20:41:53 * futhin joins the whackoff fest, because he's a boy scout and he's always prepared!
20:42:02 * ree futhin ,me in a query usually goes to the channel 
20:42:07 <chrisrw> I440r: postfix asseembler w/ COMMAS!
20:42:30 <chrisrw> thats thee way
20:42:40 <ree> ?
20:42:45 <I440r> i wont support bas ackwards assembly in isforth - the assembler HAS to be able to take the existing kernel sources AS IS - or with MINOR modificaionts only
20:42:45 <chrisrw> futhin: #rkforth :))
20:42:57 <chrisrw> !
20:42:58 <chrisrw> :(
20:43:01 <ree> what is the existing kernel source in?
20:43:05 <I440r> nasm
20:43:16 * I440r wanders off to clean his 45
20:43:16 <chrisrw> then code it in backwards asm
20:43:17 <chrisrw> :))
20:43:21 <ree> I didn't know you were parsing existing source
20:43:28 <ree> I thought you were creating a new parser hehe
20:43:30 <futhin> chrisrw: i hate #forth do you want me to come and hate #rkforth? :P
20:43:38 * kc5tja strongly considers assuming maintainership of piki.
20:43:53 <I440r> piki?
20:44:00 <kc5tja> A wiki implemented in Python.
20:44:17 <ree> how many languages can one man possibly tolerate?
20:44:36 <ree> isn't forth bad enough?
20:44:41 <chrisrw> !!
20:44:42 <ree> must you hurt yourself over and over?
20:44:45 <chrisrw> !!
20:44:46 <chrisrw> !!
20:44:46 <chrisrw> !!
20:44:47 <chrisrw> !!
20:44:54 <chrisrw> sombdy op me
20:45:01 <ree> I am just toying with the channel christopher
20:45:13 <ree> you're all toys
20:45:21 <kc5tja> Latest version is by Martin Pool, 1.62.
20:45:26 <chrisrw> well then make iit more obvious joseph
20:45:37 <I440r> oh
20:45:41 <ree> it was obvious
20:45:43 <I440r> do a wiki in forth :)
20:45:47 <ree> this is a forth channel :)
20:45:54 <kc5tja> I440r: Later.
20:45:55 <futhin> using forth on a forthchip computer, with the gui api postscript-like, etc..  that's enough language for a man
20:45:58 <kc5tja> Right now, I need a wiki *now*.
20:45:58 <ree> fuki
20:46:09 <futhin> i440r: isn't speuler's wiki coded in forth?
20:46:49 <chrisrw> hehe :)
20:46:55 <futhin> i'm pretty sure speuler HAD a wiki coded in forth, but whether or not the current wiki at forthfreak.de/wiki is the forth one, i don't know
20:47:22 <ree> anyone ever done a fairly large project in forth?
20:47:42 <ree> and I don't mean a forth compiler/interpreter :)
20:47:51 <futhin> the only example i know is www.forthcad.com
20:47:59 <chrisrw> !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !!
20:48:11 <ree> good example futhin
20:48:25 <ree> a .com not in english?
20:48:28 <ree> that caught me off guard
20:48:32 <futhin> heh yeah
20:48:34 <futhin> some frenchie
20:48:43 <ree> first time I've had that happen
20:49:18 <futhin> there's a link that gives you the site in english i think
20:49:20 <futhin> can't find it tho
20:49:54 <futhin> nah nevermind, must be my imagination
20:50:00 <ree> yeah
20:50:01 <futhin> i prolly just used babelfish
20:50:13 <kc5tja> Cool.
20:50:21 <kc5tja> I discovered yet another bug in piki, I'll fix that later.
20:50:25 <kc5tja> It's not a terrible bug.
20:50:31 <ree> so what is your guys excuse?
20:50:31 <kc5tja> Anyway, I need a logo for my qm Wiki.
20:50:41 <ree> a frenchy created a large forth program
20:51:07 <chrisrw> kc5tja: .
20:51:09 <chrisrw> :)
21:02:15 <kc5tja> Got it.
21:11:51 <I440r> lol now im too tired to code :/
21:12:18 <I440r> was gona do some coding before i went zzz but i think im gona let the gun stew overnight and code tomorrow :P
21:12:30 <ree> stop it
21:12:35 <ree> code damn it
21:12:41 <ree> make love with your isforth
21:12:47 <ree> make it happy
21:12:48 <ree> cherish it
21:12:53 <ree> just god damn it.. someone here code 
21:12:55 <ree> please
21:13:14 <I440r> i was coding earlier today
21:13:16 <futhin> look mom! i'm coding! : sex ." sex is good clean fun!" ;
21:13:37 <ree> ok, have fun sleeping then i440r
21:14:14 <I440r> :)
21:19:28 <kc5tja> chrisrw: http://www.falvotech.com/cgi/piki-qm
21:22:48 <chrisrw> CUT?
21:22:58 <ree> PASTE
21:25:24 <kc5tja> chrisrw: CUT is my C Unit-testing Tool package.
21:29:17 <chrisrw> ?
21:33:11 <kc5tja> Goodness, if I have to explain literally everything, I wouldn't get anything useful done.
21:33:29 <kc5tja> My software is written with unit tests, to ensure that the changes YOU make to the code don't break the software.
21:33:56 <kc5tja> Likewise, if you add something to the program, changes *I* make will be unit-tested to ensure they don't break code either.
21:34:12 <kc5tja> It's a means of ensuring minimum bugs at all times, and most importantly, that fixed bugs never, ever, ever get re-introduced into the code.
21:34:22 <kc5tja> E.g., they help ensure that we're always going forward with the project.
21:34:45 <kc5tja> (For a very clear demonstration of a project that does NOT use unit tests, and that has a *nasty* bug control problem, one need look no further than Mozilla)
21:36:25 <kc5tja> Oh crap, I gotta get rid of that SourceForge picture.  :)
21:36:36 <chrisrw> haha :))
21:36:39 <chrisrw> sooo
21:36:40 <ree> where???
21:36:40 <ree> quick
21:36:42 <ree> show me it
21:36:47 <ree> someone
21:36:48 <chrisrw> how doees it work? lool
21:37:59 <futhin> show you what? CUT?
21:38:13 <kc5tja> ree: ?
21:38:16 <ree> no idea
21:38:22 <ree> I thought they were  photos of you kc5tja
21:38:29 <futhin> lol
21:38:31 <ree> the early years
21:38:35 <I440r> mozilla collects bug reports. they dont do much with them but they collect them
21:38:35 <kc5tja> No.
21:38:37 <I440r> obsessivlyu
21:38:53 <kc5tja> I440r: They do fix them.  It's just that they collect bugs faster than they can fix them.
21:39:03 <kc5tja> They release versions of the software known to contain bugs.
21:39:04 <kc5tja> et. al.
21:39:13 <ree> totally different programming model than that of say DJ Bernstein :)
21:39:14 <kc5tja> CUT is integrated into the build environment.
21:39:30 <kc5tja> You start by writing your tests in a (set of) .c file(s).
21:39:48 <kc5tja> You then generate a test-runner from the set of test .c files using a tool called `cutgen'.
21:40:05 <kc5tja> Compile this test-runner, and link against the test .c files.  
21:40:07 <kc5tja> Run the test-runner.
21:40:22 <kc5tja> It will either run to completion without returning any errors, or it'll stop at the first error it finds.
21:40:57 * kc5tja prefers to write the tests before writing the production code that is being tested.
21:41:04 <kc5tja> Some people prefer to write the tests afterwards.
21:41:09 <kc5tja> I couldn't care less which method you choose.
21:41:19 <kc5tja> I only require that qm be fully unit tested.
21:41:51 <ree> he he you said unit he he
21:42:23 <kc5tja> My requirement is that I WILL NOT EVER release a version of qm unless all of its unit tests pass 100%.
21:46:08 <TreyB> The trick then becomes ensuring that your unit tests provide sufficient coverage.
21:53:07 <kc5tja> TreyB: One man's trick is another man's technique.
21:53:28 <kc5tja> When you factor your code mercilessly, unit tests provide near 100% code coverage.
21:54:00 <kc5tja> (I say near because there are times when you can't manually test 100% code coverage in a timely manner, as when performing an exhaustive test on modular arithmetic for encryption, for example)
21:54:24 <TreyB> Well, "trick" in the sense that you have a lot of details to manage.  I meant no disparagement.
21:56:49 <TreyB> If you like Linux on x86 hardware, you may have some luck using valgrind to calculate code coverage in addition to its memory checking features.
21:58:19 <kc5tja> Hmm, I'll have to check that out.
21:58:29 <kc5tja> That could be useful as an adjunct to unit tests.
22:00:27 <TreyB> Valgrind only reports on the code paths you execute.  CUT's attempt to execute all of the code paths seems like a perfect match.
22:01:56 * kc5tja finished the rough draft of QmVersionNumbers
22:07:37 <kc5tja> OK, I now have QmMilestones implemented too.  :)
22:07:39 <kc5tja> clear
22:07:40 <kc5tja> gahh
22:11:20 <chrisrw> hehe
22:11:26 <chrisrw> DONT /cleear
22:13:57 <kc5tja> Why?
22:14:00 * kc5tja /clear's all the time.
22:14:21 <kc5tja> I can't stand a display that is all cluttered up with text that I've already read at least five times.
22:15:18 <chrisrw> !
22:15:20 <chrisrw> :)
22:17:44 <kc5tja> I put up a page on how qm's version numbering scheme will work and a list of milestones.
22:18:27 <kc5tja> I'll leave it at that for tonight, I think.
22:18:55 <kc5tja> I have to put up instructions on how to acquire the latest copy of qm from the falvotech.com site via arch, though.
22:19:01 <kc5tja> I'll do that tomorrow, after work.
22:19:05 <TreyB> G'night, all.
22:23:44 <kc5tja> As it is, I think I will get to bed.
22:23:54 <kc5tja> I have to be at work at 8AM tomorrow to be there for a mandatory store meeting.
22:24:24 <kc5tja> That'll last about 1.5 hours, whereafter I will begin my normal day at 11AM, which kind of makes me wonder why I should even go home that day.
22:24:26 <kc5tja> :/
22:24:49 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK")
22:29:35 --- quit: Sonarman ("Client exiting")
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/03.12.19