00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.12.17
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08:02:09 <madgarden> Yay! I got a Krillin action figure in the mail yesterday.
08:02:30 <I440r> ?
08:02:35 <madgarden> !
08:03:11 <madgarden> http://i19.ebayimg.com/01/i/01/04/91/92_1.JPG
08:03:16 <I440r> lol
08:03:22 <madgarden> :D
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09:48:57 <I440r> i just realised i have another word i hate from ans 
09:48:59 <I440r> compare
09:49:14 <I440r> ( a1 n2 a2 n2 --- f1 ) 
09:49:17 <I440r> instead of
09:49:24 <I440r> (a1 a2 n1 --- f1 )
09:49:29 <I440r> grrr
09:49:51 <I440r> erm thats a1 n1 a2 n2 
09:57:16 <fridge> are you forced to work with ANS code?
10:10:30 <Herkamire> fridge: no, it's just something we love to hate
10:11:42 <Herkamire> I440r wouldn't code an ANS forth if you hog-tied him and took away his cheese snacks
10:12:44 <fridge> I was wondering why you just didn't ignore it
10:12:57 <fridge> pretend it doesn't exist
10:13:01 <fridge> be at one with the universe
10:13:04 <fridge> that kind of thing
10:26:44 <Herkamire> how do I get commandline arguments in gforth?
10:27:44 <Herkamire> fridge: many of us forthers find it frustrating that most forth people only know ANS. ANS has mostly missed the point of forth, and has missed out on all the progress in the field of forth made in the last 15-20 years.
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10:32:08 <fridge> I don't have that problem, I barely remember the contents of starting forth
10:33:34 <fridge> been playing with quartus forth on my palm on the train
10:39:45 <Herkamire> I remember liking quartus, except that it wasn't free
11:00:08 <I440r> where would i find a list of minimum required words for a forth according to chuck ?
11:00:31 <Robert_> That "levels of Forth" list?
11:00:35 --- nick: Robert_ -> Robert
11:01:10 <Robert> Hrm.. this floppy disk code in enth/flux isn't exactly easy to understand,
11:01:46 <I440r> i.e. NOT the stupid ANS idea
11:01:54 <I440r> erm - i dunno.
11:01:59 <I440r> never heared of that
11:02:40 <Robert> http://www.forth.org/forthlev.html
11:02:58 <Robert> As you can see Chuck's list is VERY small
11:03:15 <Robert> It includes OCTAL :P
11:04:38 <I440r> which i think itsnt needed
11:04:50 <I440r> you can alway do 8 base ! but base isnt listed
11:04:51 <I440r> weird
11:06:03 <Robert> Hehe
11:06:21 <Robert> Well, you can make that list a bit shorter...and quite a bit longer.
11:06:30 <Robert> Trying to write a SMALL Forth? ;)
11:06:56 <I440r> no i ws just curious
11:07:07 <Robert> :)
11:10:20 <Herkamire> I440r: how about the 27 instructions for the chips?
11:10:53 <I440r> :)
11:11:32 <I440r> i think they should microcode a chip with IsForth - of corse that would mean the chip would have to have Linux microcoded on it too :)
11:11:52 <Robert> Heh
12:18:54 <wUoNrFk> wheee
12:26:13 <I440r> lol
12:26:18 <I440r> unfs code worked ?
12:29:02 <OrngeTide> yea. machineforth is generally accepted as minimum number of core ops to support a forth. although I think I440r was more looking for the list that describes not ops, but words necessary for a minimal forth.
12:29:24 <I440r> ya just out of curiosity :)
12:29:51 <OrngeTide> i'd like to know what chuck thinks on this too:)
12:29:52 <fridge> to me, a minimal set would be the smallest number of words needed to define any other necessary word
12:30:06 <OrngeTide> my friend built his forth with 2 words. 
12:30:07 <I440r> i agree with that definiton
12:30:10 <OrngeTide> but i think that's cheating
12:30:43 <I440r> if FOOBAR is a required word and IT requires FOO and BAR then they are also part of the minimm requirement
12:31:07 <I440r> build a forth in brainfuck :)
12:31:09 <OrngeTide> the only supported words allowed him to append data to the dictionary and to move some dictionary pointer forward.
12:31:35 <fridge> what data could he append though? raw machine code?
12:31:55 <OrngeTide> I440r: a self-modifying befunge routine to do forth would be interesting.
12:32:04 <I440r> :)
12:32:04 <OrngeTide> fridge: yup. numbers.
12:32:15 <OrngeTide> 1 byte at a time he'd build his dictionary.
12:32:28 <I440r> just the words required to have number INPUT is quite large
12:32:46 <OrngeTide> yea. that's why I said he was cheating. since there was a circular dependency there.
12:34:13 <OrngeTide> I440r: what do the dict entries in IsForth look like roughly. putting together my own. I'm probably leaving something out though.
12:34:51 <I440r> head space is sepereate 
12:34:55 <I440r> a header consists of
12:34:57 <I440r>  lfa
12:35:06 <I440r>  nfa (including count byte etc)
12:35:12 <I440r>  cfa-pointer
12:35:27 <I440r> the cfa pointer always points at CODE
12:35:35 <I440r> and at cfa -4 is a pointer to nfa
12:36:11 <OrngeTide> what do those acronyms mean?
12:36:25 <I440r> cfa is code field address - ' foo returns the cfa of foo
12:36:34 <I440r> lfa is the link field address in the header
12:36:41 <I440r> poiinter to previous header in that thread
12:36:54 <I440r> nfa is the name field address
12:37:30 <OrngeTide> ah. thanks.
12:37:54 <I440r> if you interleave headers and code you can have
12:38:06 <I440r> dd pointer-to-previous-word-header
12:38:07 <OrngeTide> why did you choose not to interleave headers and code?
12:38:09 <I440r>  db count-byte
12:38:12 <I440r>  db "name"
12:38:18 <I440r> code_field:
12:38:23 <I440r>  call do-something
12:38:29 <I440r> body-of-word:
12:38:31 <I440r>  dd some-data
12:38:51 <I440r> so i could turnkey the code and DUMP all head space and have a smaller executable
12:39:04 <OrngeTide> ah.
12:39:11 <OrngeTide> garbage collection of the dictionary:)
12:39:17 <I440r> lol
12:39:29 <I440r> when you turnkey its ALL garbage :P
12:40:36 <OrngeTide> so how do you differetiate between immediate and normal words?
12:40:46 <OrngeTide> i was using a flag. but maybe that's not a good idea?
12:41:12 <I440r> the NFA count byte has bit 6 set if its immediate
12:41:17 <I440r> or maybe its bit 7 lol
12:41:20 <I440r> errr....
12:41:20 <OrngeTide> gotcha
12:41:57 <OrngeTide> but but .. i want words that are 256 characters long. :)
12:42:11 <OrngeTide> wouldn't that be painful to type out? :)
12:42:12 <I440r> that would be bad :P
12:42:49 <OrngeTide> i think my C compiler supports symbols that big.
12:42:52 <fridge> whats the normal limit?
12:43:06 <fridge> I don't see many words > 5 chars
12:43:19 <I440r> 31
12:43:28 <OrngeTide> when your symbol can't even fit on a single line of a normal terminal, you have some serious problems.
12:43:29 <I440r> plus count byte =
12:43:58 <OrngeTide> 20 character words are pretty rare indeed
12:44:36 <OrngeTide> people whine about how primitive forth is. but it's got better namespace handling than C does.
12:44:50 <OrngeTide> maybe they should whine on how dumb C is.  :)
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12:47:47 <fridge> PHPNamingConventionsSuckHard
12:51:29 <Herkamire> fridge: use_Whatever_namingConventions_YOUWANT
12:52:27 <I440r> you missed the hungarian notation on that name
12:52:30 <I440r> your fired!
12:53:11 <mur> spelling mistake, unable to comprehend instruction ;)
12:53:31 <I440r> "does not compute!"
12:56:04 <OrngeTide> in C I typically use:  moduleSomethingVerb .. so netSocketRedirect .. which is mostly how things in vxworks are named
12:59:43 <OrngeTide> mostly i don't li  j   
12:59:44 <OrngeTide> ~
12:59:58 <OrngeTide> that was weird
13:00:26 <OrngeTide> anyways. mostly i don't like _ cuz it's harder to type than a capitalized letter.
13:00:56 <OrngeTide> are there any forth words which have _ ?
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13:59:32 <I440r> OrngeTide, i dont think so :P
13:59:54 <I440r> but there can be. forth makes no rules about what a word name can start with or end with or have in the middle other than it cant be a blank :P
14:00:11 <I440r> _ __ ___ etc are all legal words :)
14:00:14 <I440r> if you define them
14:00:28 <I440r> **JMbfglhr9*&Tjk  <-- this could do something!!!!
14:01:28 <Robert> Anyone naming his words **JMbfglhr9*&Tjk belongs in a nuthouse...
14:01:36 <I440r> true
14:02:06 <I440r> it looks like c :P
14:03:06 <Robert> Hehe
14:05:07 <wUoNrFk> no
14:05:10 <wUoNrFk> that'd be C++
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14:38:47 <I440r> lol unf
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15:09:38 <onetom> I440r: ? what does that mean?
15:11:02 <Robert> Hey onetom 
15:11:05 <Robert> Long time no see
15:11:55 <I440r> eh ?
15:11:59 <I440r> what does what mea n?
15:12:06 <Robert> 23:38:39 < I440r> lol unf
15:12:10 <Robert> Probably
15:12:31 <I440r> wUoNrFk  == Unf Work
15:12:43 <I440r> unf being his nick for 2349876592387465987243 years now :P
15:13:08 <Robert> Heh
15:13:59 <onetom> Robert: im here all the time, just not much interesting happens
15:14:29 <onetom> I440r: aaha,thx
15:14:30 <Robert> onetom: Hehe... guess that's why I haven't seen you speaking then :)
15:15:18 <onetom> Robert: sure. but if some1 would have spelled me name, id been here almost immediately ;)
15:15:57 <I440r> brb - going home
15:16:46 <wUoNrFk> :)
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16:25:57 <chrisrw> y0 Mark
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16:34:06 <chrisrw> y0 jason
16:34:54 <Robert> Hi Herkamire 
16:35:47 <Herkamire> hi Robert 
16:37:33 <chrisrw> hi Robert
16:37:39 <Robert> Hi
16:37:42 <chrisrw> Quaestor> how frequently does a question need to be asked to be considered a Frequently Asked Question?
16:37:42 <chrisrw>  Archon11> 7 times in the US and 11 in Canada. The European Union is considering a common number of five, but Great BriQuaestor> how frequently does a question need to be asked to be considered a Frequently Asked Question?
16:37:42 <chrisrw>  Archon11> 7 times in the US and 11 in Canada. The European Union is considering a common number of five, but Great Britain refuses to comply and insists on using its own number, six. China does not allow questions except in Hong Kong.tain refuses to comply and insists on using its own number, six. China does not allow questions except in Hong Kong.
16:37:46 <chrisrw> whats up?
16:38:47 <Robert> Not too much, doing homework, listening to Pink Floyd. Avoiding working at my Forth.
16:40:29 <chrisrw> heh
16:40:43 <chrisrw> i might make a sparc isforth port :))
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16:42:31 <Robert> Heh, okay..
16:42:37 <Robert> Hi Sonarman.
16:42:54 <Sonarman> hi Robert 
16:45:23 <fridge> Robert: you need to actively avoid working on your forth? =)
16:51:10 <Robert> fridge: Hehe. Not really. In fact, I just spent several hours on fixing a nasty bug in it. Was going to port the floppy disk code from enth/flux, but it's quite hard to follow... so I'll do that some other day :)
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17:53:50 <I440r> nj u get stage1 done ?
18:00:37 <I440r> hmmm i shud learn xlib
18:03:30 * junk is gone.. autoaway after 10 min (obv!l/on.p/off)-1
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20:52:46 * TreyB just ported FICL to PalmOS6
20:58:05 <Herkamire> aaaarg. why is it such a pain to write software
20:59:55 <TreyB> Because the machines do exactly what you tell them.
21:01:04 <TreyB> G'night, all.
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22:35:38 <Serg_Penguin> hi !
22:35:51 <Serg_Penguin> any command shell in Forth ?
22:40:41 <I440r> ?
22:43:06 <Serg_Penguin> OS shell, like 'bash' etc...
22:44:21 <I440r> well i thunked about it :)
22:44:31 <I440r> i want to write some string handling stuff in isforth
22:44:40 <I440r> that would help
23:00:06 <Serg_Penguin> i coined a new word:
23:00:19 <Serg_Penguin> thunkenschtein
23:00:21 <Serg_Penguin> ;))
23:11:08 <I440r> :)
23:19:13 <OrngeTide> forth itself is a shell though...
23:19:31 <OrngeTide> or at least a command-line interface
23:52:50 <Serg_Penguin> 'shell' has many meanings
23:53:02 <Serg_Penguin> here i meant OS command line interface
23:53:24 * Serg_Penguin wrote a tiny Sokoban game w/ working Forth inside
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/03.12.17