00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.12.16
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00:05:25 <Serg_Penguin> hi :))
00:05:30 <zardon> hi
00:09:14 <Serg_Penguin> http://snaga.narod.ru - a couple of my proggies
00:10:05 <I440r_> serg!
00:10:11 <I440r_> did you check out the new release ?
00:10:15 <Serg_Penguin> hi ;))
00:10:27 <Serg_Penguin> i checked out only my pillow ;))
00:10:46 <I440r_> lol
00:11:10 * Serg_Penguin is being sunk by melting snow via holed roof : +1 here , damn !
00:13:39 <I440r_> cold ?
00:13:42 <I440r_> ouch!
00:13:55 <Serg_Penguin> +1 C, not F ;)))
00:16:44 <I440r_> i dont like that kinda cold
00:16:48 <I440r_> you got ANY heat at all ?
00:24:28 * Serg_Penguin got failed modem, gotta fix ;))
00:25:41 <I440r_> but yer stil online
00:25:42 <I440r_> !!
00:25:43 <I440r_> heh
00:37:23 <warp0x00> sight
00:37:31 <warp0x00> i think we lost chandler along time ago
00:39:50 <I440r_> "lost" ?
00:43:01 * Serg_Penguin jacked out, jacked in - and it works !
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00:59:44 <warp0x00> yeah
00:59:47 <warp0x00> anyway goodning
00:59:56 <warp0x00> in following on Herk's footsteps
01:00:16 * warp0x00 is away: Down, down, down!
01:13:38 * Serg_Penguin is fixing Y2K bug in old knee-made script for warehouse database
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01:44:46 <Serg_Penguin> bug squished ! ;))
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08:05:38 <OrngeTide> mmm.. grits
08:06:23 <OrngeTide> they are a little thick though. i forgot i was making grits and cooked them a bit long. d'oh
08:22:01 <I440r> lol
08:22:11 <I440r> icky stuff
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09:17:39 <MysticOne> I luff grits!
09:17:42 <MysticOne> they're so yummy
09:17:45 <MysticOne> specially cheese grits
09:22:20 <hovil> what are grits?
09:25:17 <hovil> sounds like the contents of a vacuum cleaner
09:29:44 <MysticOne> umm... hominy
09:29:45 <MysticOne> I think
09:29:47 <MysticOne> take corn
09:29:48 <MysticOne> grind it up
09:30:01 <MysticOne> boil it in water
09:30:07 <MysticOne> until all the water is absorbed
09:30:09 <MysticOne> and you have grits
09:30:21 <MysticOne> very similar to cream of wheat, though more coarse
09:39:39 <MysticOne> OrngeTide: do you like cheese grits? :)
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09:49:52 <I440r> hovil tastes like the contents of a cacuum cleaner too
09:49:54 <I440r> :)
09:50:11 <I440r> MysticOne, not the whole corn, just the tip of it
09:50:54 <MysticOne> I440r: is it?  I thought it was like the whole thing ..
09:51:02 <MysticOne> though hominy is really whole corn kernels boiled
09:51:07 <I440r> no just the very tip of it i believe
09:51:10 <MysticOne> ahhh
09:51:12 <MysticOne> anyway
09:51:13 <MysticOne> it's good :)
09:51:19 <I440r> its icky
09:51:20 <MysticOne> if you don't like it, it's because you're a communist
09:51:21 <I440r> :)
09:51:29 <MysticOne> my wife is a communist too
09:51:35 <I440r> if you do like it its because your a REDNECK!
09:53:15 <MysticOne> I'm a white neck
09:53:20 <MysticOne> and I like grits a lot :)
09:53:24 <MysticOne> I also like cream of wheat
09:53:49 <I440r> hmm which prolly tastes like chicken!!!
09:54:03 <I440r> and there IS no spoon
09:54:05 <MysticOne> nope
09:54:07 <MysticOne> yes
09:54:07 <I440r> so how do you eat it ?
09:54:12 <MysticOne> with a spoon or a fork
09:54:19 <I440r> but there IS no spoon
09:54:23 <MysticOne> then I can use a fork
09:54:24 <MysticOne> :)
09:54:29 <I440r> you obviously never saw the matrix :P
09:54:31 <MysticOne> anyawy, I'm off to get me some mad chinese food
09:54:37 <I440r> cream of wheat tastes like chicken
09:54:39 <MysticOne> hehehe
09:54:42 <MysticOne> no, that was just bleh
09:54:46 <MysticOne> thy didn't say what it actually was
10:08:28 <OrngeTide> i only eat grits with butter or bacon grease.
10:18:38 <OrngeTide> what do you guys think of machine forth. having the A address register seems to tighten up code pretty well.
10:19:05 <OrngeTide> on the otherhand you end up with a set of operations necessary to manipulate A
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11:18:21 <I440r> hi oyd11 you new in here ?
11:18:45 <Robert> Hi oyd11 
11:20:31 <oyd11> yeah, it's the first time I joined hi
11:20:41 <I440r> cool - you code forth ??? :)
11:20:48 <oyd11> yes
11:20:55 <I440r> cool
11:21:03 <oyd11> yeah ;)
11:21:06 <I440r> someone lock the door... dont let him out!
11:21:43 <I440r> so where are u from ?
11:21:50 <oyd11> I've also implemented two forth engines if you're curious
11:22:02 <I440r> cool
11:22:07 <oyd11> from Israel, currently living in Poland
11:22:12 <I440r> in what language did you implement them in
11:22:19 <I440r> on what processor/os ?
11:22:54 <oyd11> on the nintendo-gameboy, no-OS, that's kinda like Z80...
11:23:02 <I440r> cool
11:23:22 <oyd11> cool, and you, how are you doing tonite?
11:23:33 <I440r> well it not tonight yet :)
11:23:34 <I440r> hehe
11:23:37 <I440r> but im doing ok
11:23:39 <I440r> im at work
11:23:42 <I440r> <-- hardly working
11:24:17 <oyd11> (impl in asm, of course with inlined forth, but mostly asm)
11:24:27 <I440r> cool
11:24:37 <I440r> im doing a linux x86 direct threaded NON native forth
11:24:38 <hovil> I440r: as odd as it may sound, that is the exact same thing I am doing
11:25:03 <I440r> hovl in assembler ?
11:25:04 <I440r> or c
11:25:08 <I440r> c doesnt count :P
11:25:10 <I440r> lol
11:25:37 <hovil> hardly working
11:25:40 <oyd11> what do you mean by NON native? x86 asm I440r?
11:25:40 <hovil> =)
11:25:44 <I440r> oh lol
11:25:54 <I440r> it doesnt compile : defs to assembler
11:25:56 <OrngeTide> I440r: non native?
11:26:02 <I440r> it compiles them to forth
11:26:15 <OrngeTide> oh. interesting
11:26:20 <I440r> native compilers take : blah 10 0 do i . loop ;
11:26:24 <hovil> so it compiles them from forth, to forth?
11:26:31 <I440r> and compile mov eax, #10
11:26:38 <I440r> call dot
11:26:44 <I440r> etc etc etc
11:26:58 <I440r> from forth soruce to direct threaded forth. not to assembler
11:27:05 <I440r> a native compiler compiles to assembler
11:27:08 <OrngeTide> man. is my forth OS ever going to suck.
11:27:14 <OrngeTide> but at least I started it (last night)
11:27:28 <I440r> :)
11:28:05 <OrngeTide> but the first non-trivial forth app I write is expected to suck. I decided to do it in something that resembles machineforth rather than ans forth
11:28:22 <OrngeTide> maybe it will help me avoid bad habbits from being a C grunt for 10 years.
11:28:26 <I440r> ans sux
11:28:27 <Herkamire> what do you guys think of displaying code and documentation like this: lynx http://herkamire.com/jason/downloads/src-zoom.png
11:28:36 <oyd11> I440r: that's normal DTC in normal terms.... there's no 'native' DTC...
11:28:43 <Herkamire> below each word is documentation (white) then the definition for it
11:28:50 <oyd11> yeah ANS sux...
11:28:50 <I440r> correct
11:28:54 <OrngeTide> I440r: my problem with ans is not that it's big, but it doesn't even give me anything I want anyways.
11:29:35 <I440r> its not a means of opening doors to you, it doesnt do that. it closes them to you
11:29:38 <I440r> you cant do that!
11:29:40 <OrngeTide> but i think most forths resemble ans more than machineforth.
11:29:41 <I440r> it wont be portable!
11:29:46 <oyd11> reading /trying to comply to ANS took me much more time than actual coding.... so I440r, are you ANS, or color, or anything?
11:30:01 <I440r> im anti ans
11:30:07 <I440r> isforth.clss.net is my forth for linux
11:30:14 <I440r> ive got NOTHING good to say about ans forth
11:30:21 <OrngeTide> Herkamire: what doy ou mean dispaly codes in documenation?
11:30:27 <OrngeTide> Herkamire: like troff does? I like troff
11:30:56 <I440r> in fact i only just in this last release even defined the CELL words - on request
11:30:58 <OrngeTide> I440r: yea to me. it looks more like ans forth (sorry)
11:31:04 <I440r> and with reservations about it
11:31:24 <I440r> i am basing it off FPC very loosly which is 83 std
11:31:26 <I440r> not ans
11:31:37 <OrngeTide> i've been debating writing my forth in IsForth or nasm. but i decided on nasm because I'm a lot more familliar with asm than forth.
11:32:09 <OrngeTide> I440r: okay. I put ans/fpc/83/etc in the same general catagory.
11:32:12 <OrngeTide> perhaps "classic forth"
11:32:30 <Herkamire> OrngeTide: I mean that in my forth environment, it could display the forth code and documentation this way. zooming interface. you can zoom in and out and pan with the house.
11:32:38 <Herkamire> s/house/mouse/
11:32:40 <OrngeTide> so far machineforth fits with x86 and arm7 instruction sets very well. so i'm pleased.
11:32:42 <I440r> OrngeTide, no way - 83 didnt BLOCK you from doing stuff, its anti forth to STOP a developer doing X when X might be usefull to him
11:32:51 <I440r> ans does that all over the fscking place lol
11:33:16 <OrngeTide> I440r: take about 10 paces back and look at them. then you'll agree. close up 83 and ans are very different.
11:33:36 <I440r> its the close up that counts
11:33:46 <OrngeTide> yea. ans is full of "please don't optimize this" :)
11:33:54 <OrngeTide> I440r: well i'm mearly classifing them.
11:34:01 <OrngeTide> not actually implementing ans. so calm down:)
11:34:25 <I440r> OrngeTide, lol no - thats ok - i AM calm :)
11:34:26 <I440r> heh
11:34:36 <OrngeTide> Herkamire:  i see. reminds me of Jef's THE
11:35:18 <OrngeTide> well i mentioned machineforth a few times and nobody threw in their opinion about it. so either nobody cares or nobody know it. :P
11:35:28 <OrngeTide> it has a register *gasp*
11:36:45 <oyd11> OrngeTide: what's your project (in a few words ;)?
11:37:25 <OrngeTide> educational machineforth kernel for x86 (and possibly arm7)
11:37:55 <oyd11> why arm? (beside it's just being a kewl cpu...)
11:38:01 <I440r> machineforth makes kernel primatives assembler macros basically
11:38:01 <OrngeTide> possibly a springboard for my GUI research. depends on how much i like it
11:38:15 <Herkamire> OrngeTide: THE got me thinking about zooming interfaces
11:38:27 <OrngeTide> oyd11: because atmel AT91 can be had for $14 in single unit quantities.
11:38:49 <Herkamire> OrngeTide: machineforth seems a bit overkill in the simplicity department, unless you actually plan on having it run on simple hardware
11:38:59 <I440r> jeff raskin is cool lol
11:39:02 <Herkamire> OrngeTide: for example I'd want a native devide instruction
11:39:11 <I440r> did you see "THE" matrix ? 
11:39:39 <I440r> http://humane.sourceforge.net/the/matrix.html
11:39:43 <OrngeTide> Herkamire: well i thinking more along the lines of my words being the same as MF operations.
11:40:25 <OrngeTide> yea:)
11:40:41 <OrngeTide> i don't want to emulate a MuP21 or anything:)
11:41:28 <Herkamire> OrngeTide: oh
11:41:50 <Herkamire> I like the wordset. I just don't want to emulate something that simple
11:42:05 <Herkamire> I use the A register in my forth. it's very handy. simplifies many things
11:42:10 <OrngeTide> really it will appear identical to real forth:)
11:42:21 <OrngeTide> Herkamire: yea. 
11:42:41 <Herkamire> careful saying "real"
11:42:47 <Herkamire> you can offend people with that :)
11:43:34 <OrngeTide> hrm.
11:43:42 <OrngeTide> that's tough for them, isn't it? :)
11:43:58 <I440r> let them be offended
11:44:15 <I440r> if they have coded crap and are offended by the word "rea" thats becayse THEY know they have coded crap
11:44:25 <I440r> "real" even
11:44:56 <Herkamire> I440r: ok, well actually the problem with saying something lke "real" is that it get's people arguing about what a "real" forth is.
11:45:16 <I440r> anything that can compile itself
11:45:32 <I440r> erm. except those forths with an extension to compile c :P
11:45:34 <I440r> lol
11:45:46 <I440r> oh god what have i done - someone will implement that now
11:47:40 <Herkamire> I'm sure it's been done already
11:55:36 <OrngeTide> I440r: my forth must have the ability to compile CL! :)
11:57:52 * OrngeTide goes off to read "Moving Forth". 
11:58:28 <I440r> i want to build bf into my forth :)P
12:31:28 * wUoNrFk yawns and decides to make a pot of coffee as 'first order of business'
12:32:32 <I440r> unf just got up ?????
12:32:43 <I440r> man you guys in omaha.....
12:36:32 <wUoNrFk> heh
12:36:36 <wUoNrFk> nah, just primarily me :)
12:40:59 <I440r> :)
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12:41:25 <I440r> oopts
12:41:28 <I440r> lol
12:44:30 <Robert> Hey
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14:28:07 <OrngeTide> hio
14:29:56 <warp0x00> HIIIIOOO
14:30:16 <zardon> greetings
14:30:24 <OrngeTide> eheh
14:30:42 <OrngeTide> I440r has funny comments in his asm for IsForth. :P
14:30:55 <I440r> like ??? :)
14:31:29 <OrngeTide> ;bullshit red tape visual clutter
14:31:34 <OrngeTide> section .text               ;i dont comment on bullshit
14:31:37 <I440r> right
14:32:00 <OrngeTide> actually you comment about 8x more than I do.. :P
14:32:23 <I440r> not on bullshit :P
14:32:45 <OrngeTide> oh i agree
14:34:26 <OrngeTide> i just think it's amusing:)
14:36:04 <I440r> look at the commenht on compile and [compile] :)
14:36:10 <I440r> it needs to be reworded slightly
14:37:58 <OrngeTide> ;like all good ans words this aforementioned new word has a name that
14:37:58 <OrngeTide> ;- totally - fails - to - describe - its - function
14:38:00 <OrngeTide> :)
14:38:24 <OrngeTide> i should define postpone, make make it do something else. :)
14:38:35 <OrngeTide> s/make make/but make
14:38:39 <OrngeTide> wow. brainfart
14:39:30 <OrngeTide> actually i will probably call it postpone. i don't agree with you that it's a bad name
14:40:00 <I440r> it IS a bad name - its totally ghey
14:40:06 <OrngeTide> why?
14:40:11 <I440r> your not postponing anything
14:40:15 <I440r> your compiling something
14:40:16 <OrngeTide> it postposes execution of an immediate
14:40:21 <I440r> either at run time or at compile time
14:40:23 <I440r> PERIOD
14:40:27 <OrngeTide> you're not compiling, the immediate is already compiled. :)
14:40:31 <I440r> no
14:40:35 <I440r> it doesnt
14:40:41 <I440r> it COMPILES an immediate
14:40:53 <I440r> its looking at it from completely the wrong angle
14:41:02 <I440r> postpone is stupid
14:41:05 <OrngeTide> eheh
14:41:24 <I440r> the whole fucking idea behind it is to allow YOU to not know what the fuck your doing :P:
14:41:33 <I440r> thats a c'ism
14:41:56 <OrngeTide> are we arguing about the name or the existence of postpone/[compile] ?
14:41:56 <warp0x00> what
14:43:24 <I440r> [compile] compiles takes the next space delimted string from the input stream and compiles it into the colon definition being created.
14:43:39 <I440r> compile takes the next token out of the execution stream and compiles it 
14:43:55 <I440r> but in order to know how to use these you have to know every single immediate word in the dictionary
14:43:57 <OrngeTide> postpone takes the next space delimited string from input and postpones it's execution for run-time instead of compile time. :)
14:44:05 <I440r> and to solve this HUGE NON PROBLEM....
14:44:35 <I440r> OrngeTide, the behavipour of postpone depends on weather your postponing an immediate or not
14:44:42 <I440r> postpone foo will do one of two things
14:44:51 <OrngeTide> I440r: that's fine. 
14:44:52 <I440r> it will compile foo in place of "postone foo"
14:45:01 <I440r> or it will compile postpone AND foo
14:45:03 <OrngeTide> i don't demand identical behavior for two different things
14:45:13 <I440r> so you dont need to know what the fuck your doing basically
14:45:38 <I440r> your getting different behaviour on ONE word depending on context
14:45:42 <OrngeTide> that implies you do need to know what you are doing. if you get something different depending on what you give it
14:45:47 <I440r> i.e. postone is overloaded.
14:45:51 <I440r> i.e. its a fucking cism
14:45:55 <OrngeTide> ohhh. 
14:46:00 <OrngeTide> i see.
14:46:59 <I440r> and it saves you the trouble of knowing the language. you dont need to know if foo is immediate or not
14:47:26 <OrngeTide> sounds dangerous
14:47:34 <I440r> theres NOTHING wrong with compile and [compile] and you can see from the text of the source where foo will be compiled
14:47:42 <I440r> compile foo compiels foo at runtime
14:47:54 <I440r> [compile] foo compiles foo at compile time
14:48:07 <I440r> postpone foo --- you have no fucking idea just looking at the source
14:48:09 <I440r> BAD
14:48:11 <OrngeTide> i'm not sure if that's clearer. :)
14:48:32 <OrngeTide> well it's clearer. okay:)
14:48:52 <OrngeTide> i don't know anything.
14:48:55 * OrngeTide hangs head.
14:49:00 <I440r> lol
14:49:09 <OrngeTide> but why compile and [compile] for names.
14:49:10 <I440r> : blah postpone foo ;
14:49:23 <I440r> does foo get compiled into blah or does blah compile foo somewhere else
14:49:29 <OrngeTide> why not compile and dont-compile ehhe:)
14:49:31 <I440r> you cant tell
14:50:01 <I440r> [compile] foo is like [ compile foo ] 
14:50:06 <OrngeTide> I440r: what's wrong with looking up foo and figuring out what it is. 
14:50:11 <I440r> except the latter wont really work
14:50:23 <I440r> because "compile" doesnt parse the input stream that way
14:50:23 <OrngeTide> I440r: ah. gotcha
14:51:07 <I440r> one shouldnt have to keep jumping backwards and forwards through yoru code to find a word to see how it will be copiled here
14:51:26 <I440r> what if foo is in some obscure file buried in some directory tree and you looking at the soruce for the first time
14:51:32 <I440r> you have NO way of knowing whats going on
14:51:33 <I440r> its bad
14:51:49 <I440r> with compile and [compil] you know RIGHT THERE whats going on
14:51:53 <OrngeTide> I440r: I will agree with that. but people use the same argument in C for using hungarian notation, and I reject it there. so why should I accept it here?
14:52:16 <OrngeTide> sometimes the forth community has this mentality that you shouldn't be programming on a forth unless you know everything about it.
14:52:19 <I440r> hungarian notation is like communism, a great idea on paper but sucks in practice
14:52:30 <I440r> all it does is add huge ammounts of vusual clutter to the sources
14:52:50 <OrngeTide> it wastes my time in C because I like to change types of things. 
14:52:53 <I440r> OrngeTide, ill go further - you shouldnt program in any language unless you know everything about it
14:53:11 <OrngeTide> people say that's bad. I tell them, maybe they should pick better types next time so I don't have to go change them
14:53:14 <I440r> 500 billion bullshit script kiddie c lamers is why ive been out of work for 2 years
14:53:38 <I440r> you can also blame those same script kiddies for ms windows
14:53:43 <I440r> erm and hungarian notation too
14:54:04 <OrngeTide> I440r: I can pass your resume around my contact here if you are willing to live in the people's republic of california
14:54:23 <I440r> commiefornia... $500 an hour minimum :)
14:54:30 <OrngeTide> heh.
14:54:36 <I440r> lol no - i would take a reasonable rate
14:54:39 <I440r> on a contract basis
14:54:44 <OrngeTide> i took a massive pay cut cuz the market is so shitty. 85k/yr :(
14:54:54 <I440r> 50 per is however an absolute minimum
14:55:01 <I440r> and THAT is low
14:55:03 <I440r> very fucking low
14:55:06 <OrngeTide> 50/hr is terrible.
14:55:14 <OrngeTide> i pay 42% income tax...
14:55:19 <I440r> would prefer $100+
14:55:31 <OrngeTide> wouldn't we all
14:55:36 <I440r> thats a great reason to get the fuck out
14:55:42 <I440r> i would want per diem
14:55:51 <OrngeTide> you could probably get away with around 75/hr maybe more if you can instill some confidence into them.
14:55:51 <I440r> my taxable wage would be lower
14:56:05 <I440r> show em isforth :P
14:56:26 <OrngeTide> hehe. i'm not sure they would comprehend why it's a good example of anything.
14:56:47 <I440r> just looking at it and not understanding any of it would show me to be a good coder
14:56:51 <I440r> just by how NEAT it looks
14:57:03 <I440r> most other peoples source code looks like an unmade bed
14:57:08 <I440r> erm like MY bed lol
14:57:18 <OrngeTide> I440r: if you want to go that route then you should make IsForth 20Mb of source code.
14:57:26 <OrngeTide> that will impress them more
14:57:32 <I440r> im workin on it hehe
14:57:34 <zardon> heh, yeah
14:58:16 <zardon> question re saving input source
14:58:21 <OrngeTide> anyways. orange@rm-f.net .. send a resume. I'll toss it to a few people I know in the embedded biz. maybe they are looking for contractors right now.
14:58:53 <I440r> ornge cool erm let me make a note of that (clog dont make a note of that :)
14:59:04 <zardon> I440r, how do you deal with saving the input source specification, on the return stack?
14:59:13 <I440r> emails are usually edited out of the logs i believe
14:59:20 <I440r> say again ?"
14:59:30 <I440r> i dont have evaluate
14:59:35 <I440r> fload has its own stack
14:59:39 <OrngeTide> no emails in your logs?
14:59:55 <zardon> isForth is pretty non-ANS im guessing?
14:59:56 <I440r> i believe the emails are stripped out of the logs for reasons of spam :P
14:59:59 <I440r> not MY logs
15:00:07 <I440r> the channel is logged by CLOG
15:00:07 <OrngeTide> ah
15:00:12 <I440r> CLOG stands for channel log 
15:00:25 <I440r> im about as anti ans as you can get
15:00:29 <zardon> rad
15:00:30 <OrngeTide> spammers can have good luck spamming me.
15:00:35 <I440r> more so thatn j. fox
15:00:40 <zardon> heh
15:00:48 <zardon> so you don't use SOURCE-ID ?
15:00:54 <OrngeTide> I sent spambots to the TARPTI 
15:01:00 <OrngeTide> er.. TARPIT
15:01:01 <I440r> no
15:01:02 <OrngeTide> can't type:P
15:01:26 <I440r> i wont support crap like s" blah blah" evaluate
15:01:30 <I440r> totally prevents turnkey
15:01:44 <I440r> tho kc5 had a valid use for it its abused far too often
15:02:03 <zardon> hmm, yeah
15:02:23 <zardon> i've been more or less following the ans spec, changing what i don't like
15:02:44 <zardon> so you interpret from the TIB only?
15:03:01 <I440r> no. i interpret keyboard input from tib only
15:03:14 <I440r> fload memory maps a file and the memory map becomes TIB
15:03:20 <I440r> and the file size becomes #tib
15:03:31 <zardon> ah
15:03:47 <I440r> part of why i can compile 23487652938659872436 gigs of source in the blink of an eye:)
15:03:58 <zardon> heh, yeah
15:05:47 <OrngeTide> I440r: we should test it out with 1Gb of source. anymore than that and you start hitting limitations in linux/x86.
15:06:26 <OrngeTide> now what should i write that is going to take 1Gb of forth source... hmmm. :)
15:06:54 <OrngeTide> oh i know. a program that performs the functions of every program ever written in the history of software.
15:07:03 <OrngeTide> *types furiously*
15:07:03 <I440r> there ya go
15:07:20 <I440r> dont clone windows in linux or ill have to shoot you :P
15:07:30 <OrngeTide> and it will take nearly 2 seconds for IsForth to compile the equivalent of all known software... :)
15:07:50 <I440r> with one hand tied behind back!
15:08:00 <OrngeTide> I440r: oh but it needs to be 1gb. it will be windows, macos, trsdos, multics, everything
15:08:39 <OrngeTide> the manual will weigh 5000 lbs
15:08:44 <I440r> it will be reursive
15:08:50 <OrngeTide> yes:)
15:08:51 <I440r> it has to be itself too
15:08:59 <OrngeTide> so you can run linux and run isforth and run everything on that.
15:09:08 <I440r> it needs to do eveyrthing any program ever writtn did - including itself
15:09:44 <OrngeTide> it will also print it's own source code. (quine)
15:11:32 <OrngeTide> but seriously. you should generate some insanely large amount of source to get some benchmarks on how fast IsForth is at compiling. might be fun
15:11:45 <OrngeTide> even if the source is just BS (it would have to be i think)
15:12:08 <I440r> wanna make that your project ?
15:12:14 <I440r> it doesnt actualy need to DO anything
15:12:20 <I440r> just have lots of code to compile 
15:12:44 <I440r> it should be in multiple files, not all in one
15:12:56 <I440r> but you can hyave ONE huge one to show how thats handled
15:13:00 <OrngeTide> i'll think about it.
15:13:45 <OrngeTide> i could patch in use of rdtsc to get some accurate counts too.. hrm.. could be fun
15:14:02 <I440r> rdtsc ?
15:14:19 <OrngeTide> yea. intel op to read a per-cpu counter register.
15:14:34 <I440r> ou yea lol
15:14:40 <OrngeTide> 1 tick per clock. so 1GHz cpu. that's 1 billion Hz counter:)
15:15:19 <OrngeTide> used it at my last company to do cycle-accurate profiling and tracing.
15:15:25 <I440r> how many bits
15:15:42 <I440r> because if its only 32 you could wrap before you read again and get negative time interval :/
15:16:08 <warp0x00> RMS is a clown
15:16:43 <wUoNrFk> zealots are... well... zealotous.
15:16:44 <I440r> he is a nut
15:16:47 <I440r> but a smart one
15:16:54 <warp0x00> i just think he's funny
15:16:58 <I440r> but emacs is an abomination loil
15:16:59 <I440r> lol
15:17:25 <OrngeTide> 64-bit 
15:17:41 <OrngeTide> so it's good for more than 4 seconds. :)
15:17:57 <I440r> ok :)
15:18:29 <OrngeTide> although a lot of times i only look at the lower 32-bits because really my routine shouldn't take 4 seconds
15:18:50 <OrngeTide> and dealing with roll over is easy in asm. (it's actually kinda involved in C)
15:18:54 <I440r> can profile function too
15:19:00 <I440r> wouldnt mind that in my debugger when i do it
15:19:21 <OrngeTide> *nod* it's a pentium+ instruction though. 
15:20:13 <OrngeTide> but there are less accurate timers you can get on 486 and under. and it wouldn't be hard to set yourself up to fall back to them.
15:20:15 <I440r> right
15:20:23 <I440r> do amd have it ?
15:20:28 <OrngeTide> yes.
15:20:31 <OrngeTide> cyrix too
15:20:40 <I440r> cyrix are still arround ?
15:20:41 <I440r> ick!
15:20:48 <OrngeTide> k5 and k6
15:20:56 <OrngeTide> cyrix got bought by VIA and National Semi.
15:21:27 <I440r> aha
15:21:34 <OrngeTide> via released the C3 cpu (cyrix-iii) but the C3 isn't anything like cyrix-i or ii. and not even done by teh same people. (C3 was designed by the guys that did the IDT WinChip)
15:21:40 * OrngeTide is the proud ownder of a VIA C3
15:21:44 <OrngeTide> e.. owner
15:22:23 <I440r> via chipsets have problems with usb
15:22:30 <OrngeTide> draws 8W at 800MHz under load. can be easily passively cooled at 600Mhz and capable of going up to 1GHz
15:22:31 <I440r> they dont got usb right
15:22:41 <OrngeTide> the new southbridges are much better at USB
15:22:47 <I440r> ok
15:22:54 <I440r> they had power problems
15:23:08 <I440r> you sometimes needed to plug your devices into a HOT hub to get em to work
15:23:12 * OrngeTide used to write/debug usb drivers for vxworks that had to talk to stupid windows boxs with broken USB ports.
15:23:37 <OrngeTide> yea. they finally ironed out a lot of those issues.
15:23:46 <OrngeTide> VIA's ethernet chipset sucks though. ahah:) 
15:23:55 <I440r> lol
15:23:58 <OrngeTide> or maybe the linux drivers for it don't have enough work-arounds for their flakiness yet.
15:24:10 <I440r> well i generally find that those people who take longer to get it right get it RIGHTER
15:24:10 <OrngeTide> but the VIA C3 cpu is fantastic.
15:24:12 <I440r> lol
15:24:13 <I440r> tho not always
15:24:26 <OrngeTide> floating point is slow. but it is my most stable system.
15:24:48 <wUoNrFk> hm
15:25:01 <wUoNrFk> the c3 is alright. just don't expect too much out of it.
15:25:03 <OrngeTide> and the new Eden-N core has *hardware* AES crypto on the die. 
15:25:12 <warp0x00> my most stable system is a k6 166Mhz
15:25:19 <wUoNrFk> it's kinda nice to be able to run the thing with only a heat sink, tho :)
15:25:20 <OrngeTide> my friend is halfway complete in making a 12 node C3 beowulf.
15:25:31 <OrngeTide> in a cluster it's raw integer performance makes it pretty impressive.
15:25:45 <OrngeTide> his entire cluster draws less power than a typical intel desktop.
15:26:08 <warp0x00> lol
15:26:11 <warp0x00> thats sweet
15:26:13 <OrngeTide> warp0x00: this thing is more stable than my k6-2 650 or my athlon tbird 1400
15:26:36 <warp0x00> they made 650Mhz k6-2s!?!?!
15:26:43 <OrngeTide> yea. he is using the EPIA-800. although now that the price dropped i'd go with the EPIA M6000
15:26:52 <OrngeTide> warp0x00: yup. there is a 550 and 650
15:27:09 <warp0x00> links please
15:27:38 <OrngeTide> warp0x00: grr. i keep telling him he needs to make a webpage. he hangs out in #C on EFNet thuogh. (Aegis)
15:28:01 <warp0x00> no i mean links to the VIA stuff he is using
15:28:17 <OrngeTide> he says you can build a beowulf for under $3k. i'm thinking hrm.. I could either buy a Mac G5 or a beowulf... :)
15:28:23 <OrngeTide> warp0x00: oh. sure.
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15:28:40 <warp0x00> isnt C3 missing an instruction
15:28:46 <warp0x00> like CMOV or something
15:28:47 <I440r> hi chris
15:29:01 <OrngeTide> http://www.mini-itx.com/ has pretty much everything about EPIAs
15:29:43 <I440r> brb - going home
15:30:05 --- quit: I440r ("home is thataway -->")
15:30:18 <chrisrw> hey all :)
15:30:29 <warp0x00> those things are tiny
15:30:36 <chrisrw> Hu Mark :)
15:30:40 <chrisrw> Hi*
15:31:16 <OrngeTide> http://www.mini-itx.com/store/default.asp?c=2#p180 .. here is what my friend is using EPIA V 8000 .. 
15:31:53 <OrngeTide> warp0x00: yea. he has 6 of his systems just stacked ontop of one another using standoff pegs.
15:32:13 <warp0x00> uh
15:32:23 <warp0x00> fucking pounds sterling
15:32:23 <OrngeTide> he put compactflash->ide adapters on all of them. although personally i'd just done ethernet boot cuz the bios supports it.
15:32:37 <OrngeTide> warp0x00: oh there are 1000 US companies to order these from cheap
15:32:46 <OrngeTide> $100 - $150 depend on what you want
15:32:57 <warp0x00> so ur saying
15:33:32 <warp0x00> the ones he is using have no ide?
15:34:06 <OrngeTide> warp0x00: he didn't install IDE drives on each of his, just 256Mb of RAM and only the "main" system has a harddrive.
15:34:17 <OrngeTide> all the rest boot off a 32Mb compactflash card 
15:34:59 <warp0x00> shit i would just netboot all mine off of my AXP server
15:35:50 <OrngeTide> yea. totally.
15:36:11 <OrngeTide> i have 1Gb of RAM in mine at home. i could run a hell of a lot of stuff off ram disk...
15:36:28 <warp0x00> hmm
15:36:34 <warp0x00> what one do you think is the best?
15:36:40 <warp0x00> i like the dual lan on the 1Ghz
15:36:49 <OrngeTide> but since it's my most reliable system it's my fileserver so it has two 80Gb drives and a cd-r/dvd-rom in it.
15:37:09 <OrngeTide> warp0x00: M10000 is "best" since it's the fastest, and it doesn't have fans:)
15:37:22 <OrngeTide> epia-800 is the cheapest, which also makes it the best.
15:37:38 <warp0x00> what about CL10000
15:37:44 <OrngeTide> many models don't have floppy drive connectors (m10000) does. but i don't own floppy drives so that doesn't really bother me
15:37:55 <warp0x00> yeah no problems there
15:37:57 <OrngeTide> warp0x00: hrm. yea. do you need dual nic?
15:38:04 <warp0x00> it would be nice
15:38:33 <OrngeTide> you can buy a realtek nic for $8 and it will fit into the PCI slot. those $8 nics are less than 1" high too
15:38:59 <wUoNrFk> under high load, we've had issues with the realtek's under linux.
15:39:01 <OrngeTide> the onboard nic on VIA is somewhat flakey I must warn you.
15:39:10 <warp0x00> oh
15:39:12 <wUoNrFk> it's most likely a driver issue, but...
15:39:29 <warp0x00> lots of cheap nics eat cpu
15:39:35 <OrngeTide> kernel 2.4.20 and later seem to do better with it. but i still occationally get log messages saying it had to reset the nic 
15:40:02 <OrngeTide> wUoNrFk: nah. I know a lot of hardware that has problems that is used all the time. 
15:40:24 <OrngeTide> warp0x00: yea. they do if they are PIO
15:41:02 <OrngeTide> if you are worried: 3com, DEC or intel nic.
15:41:17 <warp0x00> is the VIA PIO?
15:41:27 <OrngeTide> i have had good luck with realtek chipset. not high performance, but they don't drag my system down or crash either
15:41:34 <OrngeTide> warp0x00: VIA-RHINE .. it's dma.
15:41:45 <warp0x00> yeah i run like 1000 realtek ones
15:41:50 <warp0x00> i know how they are
15:42:00 <warp0x00> i used to have an nVidia one that suckkkked
15:42:05 <OrngeTide> but the dma engine is/was broken. so it would sometimes have to be reset. which would cause a packet or two do get dropped
15:42:20 <warp0x00> thats what TCP is for
15:42:23 <OrngeTide> warp0x00: yea. i have that nvidia one. terrible
15:42:54 <OrngeTide> warp0x00: pretty much. but if you are sshing it gives you like a 2 second pause while it resets and resends the lost packets.
15:43:12 <OrngeTide> annoying but not detrimental.
15:43:22 <warp0x00> i think one of my systems has a via-rhine
15:43:27 <OrngeTide> 2.4.23 hasn't done it to me at all. so i suspect it's happier.
15:44:20 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth
15:44:25 <OrngeTide> well i gotta go. ttyl.
15:48:14 --- quit: Herkamire ("rebooting")
15:52:23 --- quit: tathi ("leaving")
15:53:23 <OrngeTide> http://www.whiteboxrobotics.com/ what a sexy little robot!
15:53:41 <OrngeTide> it has headlights AND a handle.
15:53:52 <warp0x00> OrngeTide: looking at the M10000
15:53:57 <warp0x00> it only has one ram slot
15:55:41 <OrngeTide> yea. how many do you need?
15:55:48 <OrngeTide> it can take a 1G DDR
15:56:13 <warp0x00> 1G DDR is expensive lol
15:57:04 <OrngeTide> 1G PC2100 is $105
15:57:17 <OrngeTide> 512Mb is $55 ...
15:57:22 <OrngeTide> did you want to buy two 512s ? :P
15:57:32 <warp0x00> no nevermind
15:57:50 <OrngeTide> hehe
15:58:08 <warp0x00> what memory mfg is that?
15:58:11 <OrngeTide> i have PC133 ECC in mine(not that i can use ECC, it's just what I happen to have 2Gb of...)
15:58:18 <OrngeTide> warp0x00: el cheapo :)
15:58:24 <warp0x00> i hate el cheapo
15:58:28 <warp0x00> i like crucial
15:58:44 <warp0x00> $70 for 512
15:58:58 <warp0x00> $375 for 1G
15:59:15 <warp0x00> nah i got this 256 PC2100 around tho
15:59:26 <warp0x00> i have a specific application in mind and 256 should be enough
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16:00:01 <OrngeTide> i usually get corsair. it's cheap and it works very well:)
16:00:21 <OrngeTide> really i just need all the bits to be good. if they aren't I take it back to the store. (memtestx86)
16:00:39 <OrngeTide> yea. 256Mb is a buttload of RAM:)
16:00:40 <warp0x00> lol
16:00:44 <I440r> no memory test is as good as a kernel compile
16:00:55 <warp0x00> im with I440r
16:00:57 <I440r> swapoff first :)
16:01:03 <OrngeTide> I440r: actually i've build kernels with bad ram
16:01:07 <warp0x00> i would run windows on it tho
16:01:10 <I440r> heh
16:01:14 <warp0x00> for gaming
16:01:15 <OrngeTide> now building GNOME. that does not work with bad ram
16:01:18 <warp0x00> would be a console
16:01:24 <warp0x00> building gnome on a tmpfs
16:01:28 <OrngeTide> via c3 sucks for games
16:01:35 <I440r> gnome doesnt work PERIOD
16:01:40 <I440r> weather you have good ram or not
16:01:46 <I440r> it also looks like shit :P
16:01:46 <warp0x00> lol
16:01:59 <warp0x00> xfce4 is where its at
16:02:00 <OrngeTide> memtest86 actually tests cache too. it's actually helped me track down a lot of problems. i've been very pleased with it.
16:02:11 <OrngeTide> I440r: ahahah. so true.
16:02:12 <I440r> yea ive used it too hhge
16:02:18 <warp0x00> OrngeTide: well then i guess i would have it serve up
16:02:28 * I440r uses windowmaker
16:02:35 * warp0x00 uses windowmaker
16:02:35 * OrngeTide is in xfce4 now too
16:02:41 <I440r> i dont need no stinkin gnome
16:02:47 <OrngeTide> i don't like windowmaker. i like pekwm. way better
16:02:47 <warp0x00> xfce4 doesnt have multiple screen support
16:02:48 <I440r> warp0x00, go get wmdots!!! heh
16:02:52 <OrngeTide> windowmaker is braindead
16:02:54 <warp0x00> what is wmdots
16:02:55 <I440r> its on dockapp.org
16:03:04 <I440r> go get it and see :))
16:03:14 <OrngeTide> warp0x00: i use xinerama so i don't have that problem.
16:03:16 <warp0x00> dockapp.org could not be found
16:03:24 <I440r> dockapps.org
16:03:26 <I440r> my bad
16:03:37 <I440r> is under general i think
16:03:40 <warp0x00> too bad windowmaker development is dead
16:03:46 <I440r> yes.
16:03:48 <OrngeTide> yea. 
16:03:53 <I440r> damn them for that!
16:03:54 <I440r> lol
16:03:59 <OrngeTide> start it back up
16:04:05 <warp0x00> ill start you back up
16:04:11 <OrngeTide> fix all the stupid things in it so maybe i'll use it once again.
16:04:21 <warp0x00> yeah it would be a great little file box wouldnt it these things
16:08:30 <OrngeTide> i use mine as my dev machine. :P
16:08:41 <OrngeTide> and fileserver and workstation. 
16:08:54 <OrngeTide> my athlon mostly plays videogames cuz it's a flakey shitbox.
16:14:05 <I440r> well im off to go eat. bbl
16:14:07 <I440r> l8er guyz
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17:23:09 <chrisrw> re Mark
17:23:46 <I440r> hi
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17:37:58 <I440r> wb chris
17:42:03 <chrisrw> thanks :)
17:43:14 --- join: Sonarman (~matt@adsl-64-160-164-111.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth
17:43:34 <chrisrw> re Sonarman
17:55:22 <chrisrw> #81617 +(37)- [X]
17:55:23 <chrisrw> <drwiii> Happiness is: seeing a news report about how the US government stresses that the conflict in Iraq isn't motivated by a need for "Christian dominance", followed by a commercial for Time Life's "Worship Together" CD set.
17:56:55 --- part: oyd11 left #forth
18:05:06 <I440r> lol
18:06:00 <zardon> hehe
18:12:06 <chrisrw> http://bash.org/?99060
18:19:19 <chrisrw> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2947231410&category=47127
18:22:11 <I440r> ok so i went to this resteraunt to talkeat and to chat with this really gorgeous waitress there who i KNOW has no bf
18:22:35 <I440r> but the place was packed and the put me off in some corner with a HUGE draft and a GAY waiter
18:22:38 <I440r> grr lol
18:23:02 <chrisrw> hahahaa
18:23:04 <I440r> he like was a crap waiter too, disappeard for 20 minutes at a time and only refilled my coffee once
18:23:11 <chrisrw> bash.org :)
18:23:18 <I440r> and the refill tasted like it had been on the burner for a month
18:23:19 <I440r> grr
18:23:29 <I440r> so i fone em just now and asked for her and gave her my number....
18:23:33 <I440r> hopefully she will call :)
18:23:43 <I440r> "tag yer it"
18:23:48 <chrisrw> are you SUUUURE that was skim milk in your coffee?
18:23:51 <I440r> whats at bash.org ?
18:24:05 <I440r> err shaddap i drink it black
18:24:07 <Sonarman> chrisrw: lol :)
18:24:22 <chrisrw> yep
18:24:29 <chrisrw> thats bash worthy :)
18:25:00 <I440r> she is HOT too...
18:25:09 <I440r> she prolly doesnt get off till 11 and i hope she calls...
18:25:10 <chrisrw> :)
18:25:19 <chrisrw> :)
18:35:09 <I440r> i had a panic for a minute or 2 tho before i called cuz the damned places is so new its not in the book yet lol
18:35:13 <I440r> had to call info lol
18:36:33 <chrisrw> hey
18:36:47 <chrisrw> im getting a sparc bbox
18:36:59 <chrisrw> and iim gonna port isforth
18:38:47 <I440r> cool!
18:38:58 <I440r> you think you can do it ?
18:39:01 <I440r> that would be awesome
18:39:55 * I440r goes to clean his gun
18:49:09 --- join: imaginator (~gps@166.70.196.201) joined #forth
19:02:32 <chrisrw> GUN!?
19:02:45 <chrisrw> I440r: and yes, of course.
19:05:55 <I440r> 1911 45acp
19:05:59 <I440r> kimber classic custom
19:06:13 <I440r> hi gps :)
19:10:04 <imaginator> hi I440r
19:10:06 <chrisrw> :)
19:10:29 <imaginator> kimber classic custom?
19:10:46 <I440r> i was cleaning my gun
19:10:50 <imaginator> oh
19:11:19 <I440r> not fired it in a few months and but clean it every cpl of weeks anyway
19:11:22 <imaginator> I440r, I tested Linux emulation in NetBSD, and it seems to work with the Heretic demo.
19:11:45 <I440r> cool 
19:11:49 <I440r> did you get isforth working in it ?
19:11:50 <imaginator> Running your isforth kernel.com still fails though.
19:12:05 <I440r> thats weird - ive seen it working perfectly in fbsd
19:12:06 <chrisrw> :((
19:12:09 <I440r> do you have ncurses installed ?
19:12:28 <I440r> were you getting buss errors and shit like that ?
19:12:39 <I440r> thats what it did in fbsd when i tried to get it working in linux emu
19:12:56 <imaginator> no, it just says "./kernel.com: Exec format error. Wrong Architecture."
19:13:23 <imaginator> I think FreeBSD may do it differently.
19:14:12 <imaginator> It may have better emulation.
19:14:26 <I440r> well - email the kernel developers or something and ask em wtf
19:14:27 <I440r> heh
19:15:15 <chrisrw> heh
19:16:12 <chrisrw> <chemical-burn> I just had a bowl of clam chowder explode all over my face and chest, now I know how a girl feels when she gives head.
19:16:55 <imaginator> $ file /usr/pkg/lib/lokigames/heretic2-demo/heretic2-demo 
19:16:55 <imaginator> /usr/pkg/lib/lokigames/heretic2-demo/heretic2-demo: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1 (SYSV), for GNU/Linux 2.0.0, dynamically linked (uses shared libs), stripped
19:17:07 <imaginator> $ file kernel.com
19:17:07 <imaginator> kernel.com: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1 (SYSV), statically linked, stripped
19:17:18 <I440r> oooh do you have objdump ?
19:17:23 <I440r> try objdump kernel.com
19:18:14 <imaginator> Which flag should I use?
19:18:26 <I440r> try -i ?
19:18:38 <I440r> but that has alot in it
19:18:57 <I440r> try -a ?
19:19:08 <I440r> and f
19:19:13 <I440r> obj -f kernel.com
19:19:17 <I440r> erm objdump
19:19:21 <I440r> -f is what we want :)
19:19:29 <I440r> kernel.com:     file format elf32-i386
19:19:29 <I440r> architecture: i386, flags 0x00000102:
19:19:29 <I440r> EXEC_P, D_PAGED
19:19:29 <I440r> start address 0x0804ac76
19:19:32 <chrisrw> <`RaSh> how do i install linux i got the cd and i dont see the setup.exe or install.exe
19:19:41 <I440r> lol
19:20:28 <imaginator> The only difference seems to be: start address 0x0804ab89
19:21:27 <I440r> paste the info in here
19:21:37 <I440r> that start address shouldnt be different - but might not matter
19:21:42 <I440r> do you have gdb installed ?
19:21:47 <I440r> gdb is evil
19:21:51 <imaginator> $ objdump -f kernel.com
19:21:51 <imaginator> kernel.com:     file format elf32-i386
19:21:51 <imaginator> architecture: i386, flags 0x00000102:
19:21:51 <imaginator> EXEC_P, D_PAGED
19:21:52 <imaginator> start address 0x0804ab89
19:22:28 <I440r> weird
19:22:33 <I440r> its not that far different
19:22:42 <I440r> hrm
19:23:04 <imaginator> $ objdump -f /usr/pkg/lib/lokigames/heretic2-demo/heretic2-demo 
19:23:05 <imaginator> /usr/pkg/lib/lokigames/heretic2-demo/heretic2-demo:     file format elf32-i386
19:23:05 <imaginator> architecture: i386, flags 0x00000112:
19:23:05 <imaginator> EXEC_P, HAS_SYMS, D_PAGED
19:23:07 <imaginator> start address 0x080b2bd0
19:23:41 <I440r> well foo
19:24:51 <chrisrw> HAS_SYMS?
19:24:53 <I440r> brb gotta do more cleaning on kimber
19:24:59 <I440r> no - dont need symbol table
19:27:37 <chrisrw> #76396 +(83)- [X]
19:27:37 <chrisrw> <SA-Magic> msg nickserv identify smallpenis
19:27:37 <chrisrw> <SA-Magic> oops
19:27:55 <imaginator> hehe
19:29:09 <imaginator> I used to have the nick gps on this network.
19:29:10 <chrisrw> hrm
19:29:15 <chrisrw> that reemminds mee
19:29:32 <chrisrw> i need to reg this nick
19:29:34 <imaginator> I neglected to use it for too long, and then someone else got it.
19:32:53 <chrisrw> :)
19:44:12 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@66-91-231-74.san.rr.com) joined #forth
19:44:13 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja
19:44:26 <chrisrw> Its Samuel!
19:44:40 <kc5tja> re
19:45:24 <I440r> hi kc
19:45:37 <chrisrw> :)
19:45:53 <imaginator> hi kc
19:46:37 <chrisrw> I440r: why not just porn it instead of emulating?
19:46:40 <chrisrw> er
19:46:43 <chrisrw> part
19:46:47 <I440r> ?
19:46:47 <chrisrw> port*
19:46:54 <I440r> lol
19:46:56 <chrisrw> fucking dvorak
19:47:13 <I440r> not a trivial task
19:47:26 <I440r> i leave it as an exercise for the reader......
19:48:04 <chrisrw> why?
19:48:11 <chrisrw> it be eezee
19:48:25 * kc5tja is still doing the happy dance that FS/TargetForth compiles ELFs.  :)
19:48:33 <I440r> heh
19:48:45 <I440r> yea - i was extatic when i got fsave working
19:49:08 <chrisrw> all you have to do (for i386) is replacee that on file..
19:49:10 <I440r> comment at top of fsave.f is "this was a bitch, if you break it you own both pieces"
19:49:11 <I440r> lol
19:49:20 <chrisrw> kc5tja: yay!
19:49:21 <I440r> no not true
19:49:23 <chrisrw> I440r: lol
19:49:37 <I440r> i stole that
19:50:34 <kc5tja> I rather think my code is pretty easy.  Nothing in it is really `a bitch,' so I'm not concerned really with breaking it.
19:51:04 <kc5tja> What is difficult is not generating an ELF file, but rather, an ELF file that Linux can read because of the assumptions it makes about its environment.
19:51:14 <I440r> correct
19:51:24 <I440r> tried to gdb your elf yet ?
19:51:38 <chrisrw> :)
19:51:55 <I440r> chris do you have gdb installed btw ?
19:52:01 <chrisrw> yea
19:52:26 <kc5tja> I440r: Yeah, just for the hell of it.  It was fun.  :)
19:52:27 <chrisrw> dunno how to use it, but feel free to use me as a ssh
19:52:45 <I440r> if gdb didnt complain you got it right
19:52:49 <I440r> gdb is picky
19:53:07 <chrisrw> chris@chris:~/src/isforth-1.13b> _
19:53:12 <I440r> chris im going to be doing it here, you there. ill walk you thru it
19:53:16 <kc5tja> I440r: Actually, it's still useful for something.  I gdb it, then "run" it -- I won't bother single-stepping and the like.  But since GDB opens it as a subprocess, I can look in /proc to see it's current 'status' (/proc/*/status) -- more useful than GDB itself.
19:53:17 <kc5tja> :)
19:53:25 <chrisrw> OK :)
19:53:36 <I440r> kc5 cool :)
19:53:57 <I440r> chrisrw, edit src/kernel/Makefile. uncomment the -g
19:54:02 <I440r> comment out the strip
19:54:07 <warp0x00> OrngeTide: about?
19:54:21 <I440r> then save it out and redo the make
19:54:24 <OrngeTide> ?
19:54:35 <warp0x00> OrngeTide: can i pm ya?
19:54:50 <OrngeTide> you can try. :)
19:55:24 <chrisrw> chris@chris:~/src/isforth-1.13b> _
19:55:43 <I440r> chrisrw, you edited the makefile ?
19:55:49 <chrisrw> yep
19:55:52 <chrisrw> :)
19:56:06 <I440r> gotta edit isforth.asm too
19:56:06 <OrngeTide> hrm. i'm starting to think it was a mistake to have based this stuff on nasm
19:56:13 <chrisrw> ok
19:56:13 <OrngeTide> i'm finding i don't actually like nasm.
19:56:26 <chrisrw> OrngeTide: FASM
19:56:28 <I440r> insert a nop between the _start and origin labels
19:56:30 <OrngeTide> fasm?
19:56:35 <OrngeTide> i like gas
19:56:45 <chrisrw> gas gives mee gas
19:57:00 <I440r> chrisw tell me when you done that :)
19:57:20 <chrisrw> k
19:57:27 <chrisrw> :)
19:57:33 <I440r> k == done ?
19:57:39 <chrisrw> yeep :)
19:57:44 <I440r> ok make
19:57:49 <I440r> gdb kernel.com
19:57:53 <I440r> break origin
19:57:54 <I440r> run
19:58:12 <I440r> should be stopped on a call to  initmem
19:59:10 <chrisrw> (gdb) break origin
19:59:10 <chrisrw> Breakpoint 1 at 0x804ab8a
19:59:10 <chrisrw> (gdb) run
19:59:10 <chrisrw> Starting program: /home/chris/src/isforth-1.13b/kernel.com
19:59:10 <chrisrw> Breakpoint 1, 0x0804ab8a in origin ()
19:59:12 <chrisrw> 10: x/i $pc  0x804ab8a <origin>:        call   0x804ab38 <init_mem>
19:59:14 <chrisrw> 9: /a $eax = 0x0
19:59:16 <chrisrw> 8: /a $ebx = 0x0
19:59:18 <chrisrw> 7: /a $ecx = 0x0
19:59:20 <chrisrw> 6: /a $edx = 0x0
19:59:20 <I440r> ok... gimme a sec
19:59:22 <chrisrw> 5: /a $esp = 0xbffff2b0
19:59:24 <chrisrw> 4: /a $ebp = 0x0
19:59:26 <chrisrw> 3: /a {long} $esp = 0x1
19:59:28 <chrisrw> 2: /a {long} $ebp = Cannot access memory at address 0x0
19:59:30 <chrisrw> Disabling display 2 to avoid infinite recursion.
19:59:52 <OrngeTide> oh this is stupid. an asm written in asm.
19:59:58 <I440r> type stepi and then hit enter till the disassem shows a ret
20:00:05 <OrngeTide> i'd much rather have an asm written as an awk script or something.
20:00:47 <chrisrw> k
20:01:07 <I440r> hit enter to execute the ret if you didnt already
20:01:19 <chrisrw> k
20:01:57 <I440r> press enter about 20 or so times - till the disassem shows call unpack
20:02:07 <I440r> if you dont crap out b4 tehn
20:02:10 <I440r> step slowly
20:02:47 <chrisrw> 0x0804ac21 in origin.L1 ()
20:02:48 <chrisrw> 10: x/i $pc  0x804ac21 <origin.L1+59>:  call   0x80481e1 <unpack>
20:02:48 <chrisrw> 9: /a $eax = 0x80c954a
20:02:48 <chrisrw> 8: /a $ebx = 0x804ac38
20:02:50 <chrisrw> 7: /a $ecx = 0x7e912
20:02:52 <chrisrw> 6: /a $edx = 0x0
20:02:54 <chrisrw> 5: /a $esp = 0xbffff2c0
20:02:56 <chrisrw> 4: /a $ebp = 0x40004000
20:02:58 <chrisrw> 3: /a {long} $esp = 0xbffff4a9
20:03:00 <chrisrw> and
20:03:04 <I440r> erm this is weird
20:03:07 <chrisrw> i already execeeed that
20:03:16 <I440r> it seems to be working 
20:03:21 <I440r> do this
20:03:24 <I440r> quit gdb
20:03:29 <I440r> restart and just say run
20:03:33 <I440r> no breakpoint
20:03:38 <chrisrw> k
20:03:44 <I440r> if you get an
20:03:45 <I440r>  ok
20:03:49 <I440r> then your running
20:04:14 <chrisrw> This GDB was configured as "i586-suse-linux"...(no debugging symbols found)...
20:04:14 <chrisrw> (gdb) run
20:04:14 <chrisrw> Starting program: /home/chris/src/isforth-1.13b/kernel.com
20:04:14 <chrisrw>  ok
20:04:23 <chrisrw> :)
20:04:23 <I440r> wooohooo
20:04:27 <I440r> type fload isforth.f
20:04:32 <I440r> tell me if THAT works
20:04:53 <chrisrw> Au Revoir!
20:04:53 <chrisrw> Program exited normally.
20:04:56 <kc5tja> OrngeTide: What's wrong with an assembler that's written in assembler?
20:04:57 <chrisrw> (gdb)
20:04:59 <chrisrw> :)
20:05:04 <I440r> did you get lotas of file names listed ?
20:05:14 <chrisrw> yeah
20:05:20 <I440r> try ./isforth
20:05:20 <kc5tja> For that matter, what's wrong with code written in assembler?  You're writing assembly language code every time you code in Forth!
20:05:25 <I440r> we might have to do this again to fix fsave heh
20:05:34 <I440r> no - we wont
20:05:37 <chrisrw> loading comment.f
20:05:37 <chrisrw> loading loops.f
20:05:38 <OrngeTide> kc5tja: what's the point?
20:05:45 <chrisrw> [snip]
20:05:48 <OrngeTide> why not spend the time to write a REAL application.
20:05:48 <I440r> run ./isforth
20:05:48 <kc5tja> OrngeTide: What do you care?
20:05:53 <kc5tja> OrngeTide: It's an assembler.
20:06:08 <chrisrw> OrngeTide: it works sw33t
20:06:16 <kc5tja> OrngeTide: Just because the authors didn't want to use C doesn't make it any less of a valuable tool.
20:06:19 <I440r> you get a hello message ?
20:06:20 <OrngeTide> well I like cross-platform things because often I have to use one machine to target another.
20:06:30 <chrisrw> chris@chris:~/src/isforth-1.13b> ./isforth
20:06:30 <chrisrw> Trace/Breakpoint ausgelöst
20:06:33 <I440r> then the error is in the way nasm creates elf headers and stuff
20:06:39 <OrngeTide> an assembler in assembler just seems inbred to me. :P
20:06:43 <kc5tja> OrngeTide: I've yet to find any real need to cross-assemble stuff from non-x86 to x86.  :)
20:06:50 <kc5tja> 99% of the time, the reverse occurs.
20:07:02 <OrngeTide> plus i just use an assembler to bootstrap myself to something real. so something quick and dirty like an awk script appeals to me.
20:07:10 <kc5tja> OrngeTide: How do you think the original assemblers all came about?
20:07:16 <I440r> chrisrw, ./isforth runs correctly ?
20:07:41 <OrngeTide> kc5tja: oh I used to devel on a solaris workstation to target a product that was dual xeon. (x86)
20:07:52 <OrngeTide> (ultrasparc solaris, not x86 solaris)
20:07:54 <chrisrw> chris@chris:~/src/isforth-1.13b> ./isforth
20:07:54 <chrisrw> Trace/Breakpoint ausgelöst
20:07:56 * kc5tja knows what Xeon is.
20:08:03 <I440r> what does that mean ?
20:08:09 <I440r> get out of gdb heh
20:08:11 <I440r> what breakpoint
20:08:13 <OrngeTide> kc5tja: i know you know. i never can tell if anyone else is listening to this conversation or not
20:08:21 <chrisrw> ausgelöst = triggered
20:08:29 <chrisrw> and i AM out of gdb
20:08:37 <I440r> erm im confuzed
20:08:39 <I440r> do this
20:08:39 <I440r> heh
20:08:41 <I440r> gdb isforth
20:08:42 <I440r> run
20:08:43 <I440r> lol
20:08:48 <OrngeTide> x86 is a crappy little cpu. i just use it cuz it's cheap.
20:09:15 <chrisrw> (gdb) run
20:09:16 <chrisrw> Starting program: /home/chris/src/isforth-1.13b/isforth
20:09:16 <chrisrw> warning: shared library handler failed to enable breakpoint
20:09:16 <chrisrw> Program received signal SIGTRAP, Trace/breakpoint trap.
20:09:18 <chrisrw> 0x0804ab8a in ?? ()
20:09:18 <chrisrw> 10: x/i $pc  0x804ab8a: call   0x804ab38
20:09:20 <chrisrw> 9: /a $eax = 0x0
20:09:22 <chrisrw> 8: /a $ebx = 0x0
20:09:24 <chrisrw> 7: /a $ecx = 0x0
20:09:26 <chrisrw> 6: /a $edx = 0x0
20:09:27 <kc5tja> OrngeTide: It's actually not that bad a CPU.  But it can stand to use more registers, which Athlon64 fixes (finally!).
20:09:28 <chrisrw> 5: /a $esp = 0xbffff2b0
20:09:30 <chrisrw> 4: /a $ebp = 0x0
20:09:32 <chrisrw> 3: /a {long} $esp = 0x1
20:09:34 <chrisrw> 2: /a {long} $ebp = Cannot access memory at address 0x0
20:09:35 <kc5tja> Besides, Athlons rock.
20:09:36 <chrisrw> Disabling display 2 to avoid infinite recursion.
20:09:44 <OrngeTide> kc5tja: no. it really is bad. and more registers aren't a problem at all.
20:09:45 <I440r> argh
20:09:57 <I440r> this is not going to be easy to find
20:10:08 <OrngeTide> x86 is really good at passing function parameters on the stack, unlike many true RISC architectures.
20:10:12 <I440r> i was having EXACTLY this problem with fbsd
20:10:16 <I440r> when i tried 
20:10:19 <kc5tja> OrngeTide: Having written two OS kernels in x86 asm purely, I think I know something about what I'm talking about when I say that x86 isn't that bad.  :)
20:10:31 <I440r> if netbsd wont run isforth netbsd isnt worthy running :P
20:10:31 <I440r> hehe
20:10:33 <I440r> lol
20:10:38 <OrngeTide> kc5tja: that only shows you know something about x86.
20:10:39 <I440r> dont quote me on that lol
20:10:43 <zardon> x86 isn't that bad?!~!@~?!@~
20:10:56 <I440r> x86 is horrible - thats its appeal!!!
20:11:03 <I440r> i love coding x86
20:11:04 <kc5tja> OK, whatever.
20:11:13 <kc5tja> I can see this conversation is going nowhere, fast.
20:11:23 <I440r> u 2 get along dammit :P)
20:11:27 <chrisrw> :)
20:11:29 <kc5tja> Given my choice, I'd rather be using a PowerPC.
20:11:34 <kc5tja> No arguments there.
20:11:34 <zardon> ahh
20:11:35 <OrngeTide> kc5tja: i used to write BSPs for a living for powerpc, mips, and x86. and have played somewhat with arm and 68k.
20:11:45 <OrngeTide> oh and sparc.
20:11:46 <I440r> bsp's ?
20:11:50 <OrngeTide> board support package
20:11:51 <I440r> binary space partitions!
20:11:54 <OrngeTide> :)
20:11:56 <OrngeTide> i wish!
20:11:59 <OrngeTide> that would've been more fun
20:12:02 <I440r> lol
20:12:22 <I440r> OrngeTide, ever done any plug and play init for an x86 based mobo ?
20:12:25 <I440r> that IS a bitch
20:12:26 * kc5tja loves system-level, register-access programming.
20:12:26 <OrngeTide> powerpc has too much shit on it you don't need. :)
20:12:37 <chrisrw> 2: /a {long} $ebp = Cannot access memory at address 0x0
20:12:37 <OrngeTide> you can actually run the instruction pointer backwards... 
20:12:40 <OrngeTide> which is fun.
20:12:44 <chrisrw> why is ebp 0?
20:12:50 <I440r> chrisw yes i know. and er,, i dont know
20:12:56 <chrisrw> heh
20:13:02 <kc5tja> OrngeTide: How?
20:13:02 <chrisrw> OrngeTide: heheehe
20:13:19 <kc5tja> Nothing in my PowerPC references seems to enable this 'mode' that you speak of.
20:13:24 <OrngeTide> I440r: no. whenever I did x86 we actually were PCI-only. so I just have to walk the PCI device tree.
20:13:30 <zardon> the backward IP?
20:13:53 <I440r> OrngeTide, it took me 2 weeks to write the code to do the PNP isolation. 2 weeks to write the code to do the PNP probing
20:13:54 <OrngeTide> kc5tja: you can force the address bus to have inverted logic for only certain types of addressing.
20:14:10 <I440r> 8 months to write the code to configure the ONE anhd ONLY device on the board
20:14:23 <kc5tja> Define 'inverted logic' -- a 1 represented by a low, and a 0 represented by a high voltage?
20:14:34 <I440r> and that was starting at ground level. no knowledge of PNP what so ever
20:14:39 <I440r> and all i had was the spec
20:14:40 <OrngeTide> my coworker was always written snippits to "challenge" me. he was twisted as hell.
20:14:44 <I440r> and some linux code :)
20:15:31 <OrngeTide> kc5tja: yes. :) .. basically m=~0; addr^=m; is how it works internally.
20:15:54 <kc5tja> OK, that's clearly to support embedded applications.
20:16:01 <OrngeTide> i'm not sure if it was available only PowerQUICC though. i never worked on the "desktop/server" version of the powerpc.
20:16:02 <kc5tja> And that's ... 32 XOR gates.
20:16:16 <kc5tja> Not a big deal to me.  It's not even worth raising an issue about.
20:16:20 <OrngeTide> kc5tja: yes. that's what I said. i can't draw gates in ascii very well
20:16:44 <OrngeTide> kc5tja: yea. i just thought it was amusing, not evil or anything. :)
20:17:17 <OrngeTide> but there is actually a lot of stuff on powerpc that really doesn't have to be there.
20:17:23 <kc5tja> MIPS is my most favorite RISC engine though.  I like PowerPCs because they're doggone fast -- faster than anything I've ever used, clock for clock.  But MIPS is damn *simple*, though heavily dependent on compiler optimization to get fast code.
20:17:32 <OrngeTide> just like x86 and sparc and mips (to a lesser extent)
20:17:45 <OrngeTide> mips is a classical risc model.
20:18:01 <kc5tja> Well, PowerPC is also RISC in the classical sense.
20:18:07 <OrngeTide> true.
20:18:13 <kc5tja> It just has a lot of support circuitry.
20:18:18 <OrngeTide> lots and lots:)
20:18:18 <kc5tja> No reason MIPS can't be as fast as PowerPC.
20:18:25 <OrngeTide> no reason other than money
20:18:28 <kc5tja> Yep.
20:18:40 <kc5tja> I do have to admit though -- I *love* PowerPC's MMUs.
20:18:45 <OrngeTide> no reason MuP21 or F21 can't be fast as powerpc or x86. other than money either. :P
20:19:30 <OrngeTide> some hardware engineers tell me you can't optimize stack cpus, others tell me that there are some not so well known optimizations that can be done the drastically improve and simplify cache behavior and other things.
20:19:51 <kc5tja> Optimization of stack architectures basically boils down to recognizing "macro-instructions."
20:19:52 <OrngeTide> yea. powerpc mmu is pretty good.
20:20:02 <kc5tja> e.g, 56 + @ <-- can be treated as a single instruction.
20:20:11 <OrngeTide> i hate how x86 mmu forces you down a very specific virtual memory design.
20:20:34 <kc5tja> That, combined with the *very* high instruction throughput of a stack CPU can make any stack CPU run at least as fast as a comparably clocked register machine.
20:20:51 <kc5tja> OrngeTide: Well, SPARC is jst as bad in that area.  :)  At least the earlier Sparcs.
20:20:54 <OrngeTide> kc5tja: well i mean optimization as in pipe-line optimizations.
20:21:07 <kc5tja> No need for pipelines in stack CPUs, so the argument doesn't apply.
20:21:08 <kc5tja> :)
20:21:09 <OrngeTide> kc5tja: sparc is designed to run sunos i think:)
20:21:16 <OrngeTide> kc5tja: well....
20:22:13 <zardon> register windows?
20:22:39 <OrngeTide> you can definently have pipelined FPU and macro-ALU on a stack architecture.
20:23:00 <kc5tja> Sure you can, but you don't need it.
20:23:03 <kc5tja> What's the pint?
20:23:17 <OrngeTide> yes. you need it if you want to have speeds equivalent to today's number crunchers.
20:23:29 <kc5tja> The pipeline was invented to break an instruction execution cycle into four phases: instruction fetch, register fetch, operation, and register write-back.
20:23:38 <kc5tja> OrngeTide: Not true; demonstrably, in fact.
20:23:55 <OrngeTide> quite true infact. 
20:24:18 <kc5tja> The F21 got 500MHz-equivalent performance on 0.8um technology, while everyone else got at best 33MHz performance.
20:24:23 <I440r> who was it earlier i told to get wmdots ?
20:24:26 <I440r> i ferget 
20:24:38 <OrngeTide> all the examples i've seen that "prove" that unpipelined stack cpus are faster have some serious holes in thier evaluation techniques
20:24:40 <kc5tja> It did this largely because it doesn't have a pipeline.
20:24:45 <OrngeTide> I440r: warp0x00 i think
20:24:50 <I440r> right
20:24:59 <kc5tja> OrngeTide: No, you have serious preconceptions that need to be shattered.
20:25:02 <kc5tja> Think it through critically.
20:25:04 <OrngeTide> kc5tja: yea. that's a BS number :)
20:25:11 <kc5tja> If the top of stack is hard wired to the ALU, what the heck do you need a pipeline for?
20:25:17 <kc5tja> OrngeTide: No it's not.
20:25:30 <OrngeTide> kc5tja: my 66MHz pentium still kicks it's butt on DIV performance.
20:25:38 <OrngeTide> and MFLOPS
20:25:41 <kc5tja> 500 MIPS is just as meaningless for Sparc as it is for F21.  But it's indicative of internal propegation delays.
20:26:01 <kc5tja> F21 doesn't have a division instruction, so no duhh it's going to kick butt over F21.
20:26:09 <OrngeTide> kc5tja: propegation delays only indicate how quickly you can run your fastest instructions.
20:26:21 <warp0x00> what about me?
20:26:26 * kc5tja sighs
20:26:31 <OrngeTide> it has no bearing on how fast you run the slowest instructions. which is why MIPS is usually a meaningless number
20:26:40 <I440r> did you get wmdots ??? :)
20:26:52 <warp0x00> no
20:26:56 <kc5tja> For crying out loud!!!!
20:26:59 <I440r> bleh :P
20:27:05 <kc5tja> The F21's instructions are all single cycle instructions by design.
20:27:12 <OrngeTide> kc5tja: so give me an example of a stack architecture that can actually crunch numbers:)
20:27:33 <kc5tja> OrngeTide: Transputer.
20:27:39 <OrngeTide> kc5tja: I realize this. and i'm still wondering why you are using it in this dicussion
20:27:41 <warp0x00> i crunched a number
20:27:42 <OrngeTide> kc5tja: better example.
20:28:05 <kc5tja> OrngeTide: Because I'm trying to prove that you don't need a pipeline to crunch numbers if the inputs to the ALU are hardwired.  Let me repeat this -- HARDWIRED.
20:28:30 <kc5tja> No need for register select inputs.
20:28:33 <kc5tja> No need for writeback phases.
20:28:37 <kc5tja> No need for decoders.
20:28:52 <kc5tja> No need for anything that would slow the flow of data into or out of the ALU.
20:29:07 <kc5tja> This is why the uP21 series has an 'A' register, to make memory accesses explicit.
20:29:36 <warp0x00> I440r: okay i have wmdots what nwo
20:29:46 <I440r> make it lol
20:29:57 <I440r> then run it and tell me what you think lol
20:29:59 <OrngeTide> kc5tja: perhaps i am mistaken, but if you need to do an operation that takes more than 1 cycle you either must repeatedly hit it with a step-by-step instruction (i believe this is how F21 MUL works). or you have to block you entire execution batch (which can be large on a transputer).
20:29:59 <warp0x00> yeah its installed and running
20:30:07 <kc5tja> You eliminate *ALL* that crap.  You eliminate the setup and hold times for each pipeline stage, etc.
20:30:11 <warp0x00> I440r: does it react to anything?
20:30:16 <I440r> what ever your looking at - thats what it does
20:30:17 <I440r> no
20:30:25 <I440r> no reactions - but the shape changes every few minutes
20:30:28 <kc5tja> OrngeTide: It's also how Sparc's MULSTEP instruction works.
20:30:31 <warp0x00> I440r: it should react to something
20:30:34 <OrngeTide> kc5tja: i won't deny that you can simplify it by not having a pipeline and still have it be *somewhat* fast.
20:30:44 <I440r> it predates wmcube by at least 2 years
20:31:06 <warp0x00> OrngeTide, kc5tja what are you arguing about
20:31:11 <I440r> i put it on the docapp warehouse and 2 days later it was deleted and all my emails were ignored
20:31:22 <OrngeTide> kc5tja: but i really want crypto and float operations in hardware. 
20:31:28 <OrngeTide> warp0x00: i don't know anymore
20:31:41 <I440r> so it was kinda dead in the water till dockapps came allong :)
20:31:51 <warp0x00> im a MOVE fan myself ever scince kc5tja promted me into researching it
20:31:55 <kc5tja> warp0x00: Whether a pipeline is necessary for "fast" stack architectures.
20:31:59 <warp0x00> I440r: make it react to something
20:32:05 <I440r> like to what
20:32:18 <OrngeTide> warp0x00: i think stack cpus need some kind of pipeline (not a traditional pipeline) to beat current CISC/RISC superscalar architectures.
20:32:30 * kc5tja sighs
20:32:33 <I440r> it just rotates arorund at varying speeds in different axis and moves away from you and back again lol
20:32:34 <kc5tja> No.
20:32:43 <warp0x00> OrngeTide: i never liked stack architecure idea myself
20:32:52 <OrngeTide> warp0x00: i think they are a pretty slick idea.
20:33:07 <warp0x00> I440r: make it react to mouse position
20:33:15 <warp0x00> I440r: or mouse movement
20:33:16 <kc5tja> It's the best possible processor architecture design -- **TONS** of processing power, for maybe 4000 to 8000 gates max.
20:33:27 <I440r> i like the way it moves now - i really dont want to change that
20:33:33 <OrngeTide> i found some really great papers on optimization cache usage for them. and it's way faster and *simpler* than what "normal" cpus have to do.
20:33:44 <I440r> its got a very clever (ish) method for modifying rotational speed
20:33:50 <OrngeTide> (assuming you want a memory mapped stack, which could be useful for context switching)
20:33:58 <I440r> i could make it change colour :)
20:34:02 <warp0x00> yes
20:34:05 <warp0x00> make it change color
20:35:00 <I440r> wanna do it for me ??? :)
20:35:01 <I440r> lol
20:35:10 <I440r> i havent even looked at that code in ages lol
20:35:42 <OrngeTide> warp0x00: you don't even like them for their high mips/$ at the low-end?
20:36:07 <warp0x00> they're what
20:36:09 <OrngeTide> like $1 you can get a stack cpu that runs circles around some PIC or Z80 that you can get for $1
20:36:17 <kc5tja> OrngeTide: The only kind of pipeline I'd ever consider for a stack architecture is the kind used on a Cyber 603 architecture.
20:36:35 <warp0x00> OrngeTide: i think i dont like it cuz its not as cool as MOVE
20:36:40 <OrngeTide> kc5tja: could you describe it to me?
20:36:41 <kc5tja> OrngeTide: Each stage in the pipeline represents a *complete* CPU context in its entirety; thus a four-stage pipeline is 100% equivalent to having four CPUs on the die.
20:36:47 <OrngeTide> thanks:)
20:36:52 --- quit: Sonarman ("leaving")
20:37:08 <OrngeTide> kc5tja: that's a perfectly acceptable architecture to me.
20:37:15 <warp0x00> that seems wasteful
20:37:21 <kc5tja> So if an instruction takes 4 cycles to complete, then you would have 4 CPU contexts.  :D
20:37:32 <kc5tja> warp0x00: It's very easy to implement though.
20:37:50 * kc5tja points to Intel's use of ``hyperthreading'' to increase the performance of Intel Pentium IV processors...
20:38:05 <OrngeTide> warp0x00: you could have 2 x86s out of a single celeron if you wanted. they have multiple ALUs and basically multiple FPUs
20:38:37 <OrngeTide> repeating the same design in a project is good because it means there is less you have to maintain.
20:38:47 <warp0x00> oh i know that
20:38:50 <warp0x00> but why in a pipeline
20:38:56 <kc5tja> But in the Cyber 603 system, you only have one ALU.
20:39:02 <kc5tja> It's shared by all four contexts.
20:39:08 <OrngeTide> warp0x00: all superscalar architectures duplicate things. that's normal.
20:39:37 <kc5tja> It's just that, due to its pipelined architecture, it keeps the buses busy at all times, so you effectively get one instruction per cycle performance, although each context sees four cycle (or whatever) latency per instruction.
20:39:41 <kc5tja> It's hardware multitasking.
20:39:43 <OrngeTide> kc5tja: hrm. it might be nice to share two of them between four contexts. it really depends on how it all works out.
20:40:11 <kc5tja> OrngeTide: I think four stages are needed at least for good FPU performance, if you wanted that.
20:40:20 <OrngeTide> hyperthreading on P4 tries to keep the bus busy by executing indepedent threads as well.
20:40:22 <kc5tja> FOr integers, 0 stages of pipelining are needed, as other architectures already prove.
20:40:52 <OrngeTide> (sparc has the same thing, but it's called something else. and sparc's actually is done more though a near-complete duplication of the processor)
20:41:09 <OrngeTide> kc5tja: okay.
20:41:23 <OrngeTide> kc5tja: so what would you call the cyber 603? just superscalar?
20:41:27 <OrngeTide> or is there a better term?
20:41:30 <kc5tja> No, it's just pipelined.
20:41:38 <OrngeTide> okay. then that's what i want.
20:41:42 <kc5tja> At least that's how Cyber described it.
20:42:00 <kc5tja> Superscalar is when you literally *replicate* the whole CPU core on the die, but have a common bus interface unit.
20:42:15 <OrngeTide> yes. that's what intel and sparc do.
20:42:15 <kc5tja> But it looks like a single CPU.
20:42:34 <kc5tja> If you replicate the core, but treat them as multiple different CPUs, it is considered SMP.  :)
20:42:35 <OrngeTide> the new fad in superscale is to allow you to optionally make it look like two "logcal" cpus.
20:42:48 <OrngeTide> even though they are bound together in some way.
20:42:52 <kc5tja> Or, in modern Intel-speak, hyperthreading.
20:43:11 <OrngeTide> i think it's AMP or TMP or some acronym like that on sparc
20:43:16 <OrngeTide> i forget :(
20:43:39 * chrisrw is making a stack CPU with klogic :)
20:43:44 <OrngeTide> kc5tja: so if i don't have at least 4 tasks on a cyber 603 then i'm just wasting resources?
20:44:04 <chrisrw> i need a counteerrr
20:44:09 <OrngeTide> klogic?
20:44:19 <OrngeTide> is that the clockless logic?
20:44:32 <kc5tja> OrngeTide: Basically.
20:44:43 <chrisrw> OrngeTide: its a circuit emu prog foor DE
20:44:51 <OrngeTide> neat
20:44:52 <kc5tja> OrngeTide: Fortunately, most systems can be broken up at least into three or four concurrently running programs.
20:44:57 <chrisrw> KDE*
20:45:19 <OrngeTide> kc5tja: yea. 
20:45:38 <kc5tja> I find nearly every program that interacts with a human needs at least two threads: a UI thread, and a core logic thread.  And this is assuming the traditional GetEvent/Dispatch() method of event driven software.
20:45:42 <OrngeTide> going up to 8 might be too many. so i'm not sure if i like how that scales.
20:46:03 <OrngeTide> yea. the dsl modem i coded had 14 threads.
20:46:04 <kc5tja> Ken Thompson describes a means of structuring event-driven software as a whole series of parallel processes as an alternative, and the result is substantially simpler program logic.
20:46:17 <OrngeTide> (not counting the excessively stupid httpd someone bought)
20:46:21 <chrisrw> kc5tja: whats the RS logic again?
20:46:39 <kc5tja> chrisrw: Either two NAND or two NOR gates, depending on whether you enjoy positive or negative input logic.
20:47:37 <chrisrw> kc5tja: i meant i/o table
20:47:56 <chrisrw> 10 = 1, 01 = 0, whats the rst?
20:47:57 <kc5tja> R S | Q !Q
20:48:03 <kc5tja> 0 0 | q !q
20:48:08 <kc5tja> 0 1 | 1 0
20:48:13 <kc5tja> 1 0 | 0 1
20:48:17 <kc5tja> 1 1 | <invalid state>
20:48:22 <chrisrw> aaahh
20:48:24 <chrisrw> ok
20:48:28 <chrisrw> thanks :)
20:48:57 <kc5tja> (note the above table is for positive logic.  For negative logic, invert the R and S boolean values)
20:49:32 <chrisrw> :)?
20:49:35 <chrisrw> :)
20:49:46 <kc5tja> OrngeTide: umm...what the hell would a DSL modem need with an httpd on it?
20:50:25 <I440r> kc5 my router has http on it
20:50:30 <I440r> if the dsl modem was a router too
20:50:32 <imaginator> My DSL modem has an httpd.
20:50:35 <I440r> you would config it via http
20:50:37 <kc5tja> I440r: Oh, your router has an integrated DSL modem then.
20:50:41 <imaginator> It's used for configuring the modem.
20:50:49 <I440r> no - its just a wireless hub and router.
20:50:59 <I440r> but there are dls modems with built in routers
20:51:14 <imaginator> Rather than having some stupid toggle switches, or Windows-specific software I can configure it with my web browser.
20:51:33 <OrngeTide> kc5tja: it was a "customer gateway"
20:51:40 <I440r> i would rather see ssh on router
20:51:43 <I440r> so you ssh into it
20:51:44 <OrngeTide> http provided diagnostics, status and configuration
20:51:45 <I440r> not http
20:51:50 <kc5tja> Umm...folks, I'm not that ignorant to not know what an httpd is useful for in a router.  I was wondering about the DSL modem in the particular, as I've not ever heard of a DSL modem having an integrated router.
20:52:17 <OrngeTide> kc5tja: oh we had freebsd firewall in our DSL modem too
20:52:27 * kc5tja nods
20:52:28 <OrngeTide> both ADSL and SDSL variants.
20:52:32 <I440r> http://www.provantage.com/buy-7zooe00n-zoom-model-5560-x3-adsl-modem-router-gateway-w-ethernet-interface-modems-external-00-shopping.htm
20:52:42 <I440r> thats a dsl modem with a router built in
20:52:49 <kc5tja> I440r: http is better; everyone has a web browser; only nerds have SSH clients on their box.
20:52:51 <OrngeTide> kc5tja: Telocity (later renamed DIRECTV Broadband)
20:53:02 <OrngeTide> we were the first:)
20:53:06 <OrngeTide> first with USB on our modem too.
20:53:07 <I440r> kc5 and ??? your point is ???? lol
20:53:18 <OrngeTide> we also had parallal port networking on a very old version:)
20:53:20 <kc5tja> I440r: It's not my responsibility to think for you.
20:53:25 <OrngeTide> (just incase you didn't have USB)
20:53:25 <I440r> :/
20:53:33 <imaginator> kc5tja: what are you so upset about?
20:53:47 <OrngeTide> we had USB slave *AND* host. because the company was crazy.
20:54:06 <OrngeTide> we also had voice-over-ip/vpn add-on module that we never released
20:54:10 <OrngeTide> but it worked. ehehe
20:54:13 <kc5tja> imaginator: I'm not upset.  I just couldn't think of a better comeback for ``and your point is?''  I rather thought it obvious.  :)
20:54:30 <imaginator> oh
20:54:41 <imaginator> sometimes I get the feeling like you have some stored up angst.
20:55:02 <kc5tja> imaginator: I do.  But I'm not in vent-mode right now.
20:55:13 * kc5tja can't remember the last time he was truely without angst.
20:56:48 <kc5tja> I'm especially angstful against FAFSA for refusing me much needed financial aid for so many years.
20:56:49 <imaginator> There is a lot in life to have angst about.  I hope it doesn't lead to more angst, such as an ulcer.
20:57:10 <kc5tja> Ulcers are in my family bloodline unfortunately, as is high blood pressure.
20:57:14 <kc5tja> And poor eyesight.
20:57:20 * kc5tja is close to being legally blind.
20:57:32 <imaginator> :( 
20:57:46 * kc5tja has the worst eyesight of anyone in my immediate family.  :(
20:59:18 <kc5tja> I'm also particularly angstful against the ham radio community for its sluggish support of faster digital modes than 1200bps.
20:59:53 <kc5tja> Goodness gracious, it's sacriliage to consider supporting 12000bps or 24000bps links on the 2m band, even as far back as 1983.  >:(
21:00:25 <kc5tja> Ham radio virtually invented the technology (well, we didn't, but we sure did help perfect it!) back in the latter half of the 1970s.  
21:00:59 <imaginator> My uncle is into HAM.  I've been thinking about taking the test.  I have some old books about it.
21:01:01 <kc5tja> Now-a-days, "high-speed wireless networking" in ham radio means taking an 802.11b transceiver, hacking the final PA to get more power, and piping the signal into a Pringles can.
21:01:56 <kc5tja> It's a nice hobby as long as you can find a nice, supportive group in your RF coverage area.
21:03:51 <imaginator> My uncle talks with people in Australia sometimes.
21:04:11 <imaginator> He has a gigantic antenna surrounding his house.
21:06:25 <I440r> prolly not many people using x25 is there ?
21:10:09 * imaginator is testing a friends BSD mixer control
21:20:44 <chrisrw> ugh
21:20:55 <chrisrw> why is it going
21:21:04 <chrisrw> 00 01 00 10 11 10 00
21:21:06 <imaginator> What?
21:21:07 <chrisrw> ugh
21:21:08 <chrisrw> ugh
21:21:08 <chrisrw> ugh
21:21:08 <chrisrw> ugh
21:25:11 <warp0x00> what
21:25:13 <warp0x00> what
21:25:14 <warp0x00> what
21:25:15 <warp0x00> what
21:25:48 <warp0x00> OrngeTide: i kinda want one of those teensy itx systems but i dont know what i would do with it
21:26:09 <OrngeTide> warp0x00: it's be a toy.
21:26:25 <warp0x00> that case you have is nice
21:26:38 <warp0x00> how many bays does it have?
21:27:27 <OrngeTide> 1 5.25, 1 3.5 and 1 3.5 internal
21:27:45 <warp0x00> is it pretty little?
21:29:11 <warp0x00> looks like it
21:31:13 <warp0x00> OrngeTide: ask your friend for a link to his case i wanna see it
21:32:54 <OrngeTide> yea. next time i see him i will ask.
21:33:00 <OrngeTide> which might be a week from now....
21:33:16 <warp0x00> does he have online?
21:33:42 <OrngeTide> no.
21:34:00 <warp0x00> thats sad
21:34:04 <warp0x00> not having online is sad
21:34:32 <OrngeTide> well he has AIM and email. but really. i don't see him very often online. he works for a living. :)
21:34:51 <warp0x00> email him maybe
21:38:34 <OrngeTide> look for set-top boxes on google. you can find a pretty wide range of things (from ones for mini-ITX to ones that have a custom motherboard)
21:40:47 <OrngeTide> http://www.axiontech.com/prdt.php?item=47702 .. pretty small case. much smaller than mine.
21:41:06 <OrngeTide> i don't like cases that use those slim CD drives though. those suck. i like something that can take a nice slot-loading drive
21:42:28 <warp0x00> yeah if i got one of those cases
21:43:49 <warp0x00> http://www.shentech.com/cac1sicomica.html
21:44:05 <warp0x00> and i just wouldn't use the cd slot
21:45:23 <warp0x00> and i would try to modify it to take a full size hard drive
21:53:36 <OrngeTide> good luck with that. :P
21:53:51 <warp0x00> penis
21:54:07 <OrngeTide> actually near me there is a place called TAP Plastics. they will cut plastic to order for a decent price. so you can make a case out of plastic if you want.
21:54:24 <warp0x00> plastic cases suck
21:54:35 <OrngeTide> why?
21:54:36 <warp0x00> no RF blocking
21:54:41 <OrngeTide> nonsense.
21:54:50 <warp0x00> not nonesense
21:54:51 <OrngeTide> you just need to get the proper material
21:55:04 <warp0x00> a grounded metal case does this thing called blocking interference
21:55:24 <OrngeTide> we used a plastic case for our DSL modem. we still met FCC spec, because we coated the inside properly.
21:55:39 <OrngeTide> RF reflective
21:55:50 <OrngeTide> your TV set is plastic too
21:56:12 <warp0x00> well clear plastic cases
21:56:16 <OrngeTide> the dumb plexiglass computer cases they sell now, are no good.
21:56:22 <warp0x00> yeah
21:56:26 <warp0x00> that what i talking about
21:58:01 <OrngeTide> if I got a case i'd get clear plexiglass and paint the inside with a nice bright opaque. (we do this with RC car bodies a lot). now my paint is "scratch proof". and then i'd just get some adheasive and paint some rf reflective "fabaric" inside of the case. not much work at all. and my case is night and light weigh.
21:58:22 <OrngeTide> if i wanted to I could pay the extra money and get bulletproof plastic. :)
21:58:30 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@h000094d30ba2.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth
21:58:48 --- quit: chrisrw (Remote closed the connection)
21:58:55 <OrngeTide> but really i have no time or room for such an elaborate project. :)
21:59:51 <OrngeTide> metal is cool, but it dents. imagine a computer case made out of the same plastic of tupperware? :)
22:00:04 <OrngeTide> actually... i should make a tupperware-based ITX case, for kicks
22:00:39 <OrngeTide> i think the ports should be covered in tupperware. that way it's waterproof and the case floats.
22:00:51 <warp0x00> lol
22:00:53 <OrngeTide> that might be a little trickier though.
22:01:34 <OrngeTide> plastic is pretty easy to cut with a good knife or saw.
22:01:36 <OrngeTide> hrmm.. 
22:01:42 <OrngeTide> very tempting
22:02:20 <warp0x00> think i should make my own mini-itx case then?
22:02:45 <OrngeTide> i think you should only make your own case if you think that would actually be fun to do. i think making a case out of desperation would really suck 
22:02:55 <Herkamire> apple makes (the outside of their) cases out of plastic
22:03:07 <warp0x00> thanks for the update
22:03:47 <OrngeTide> yea. a metal backplane can absorb most of the RF output and keep you within FCC spec.
22:03:52 <Herkamire> it's a pretty hand plastic though, not bendy and soft like tuperware
22:04:05 <OrngeTide> Herkamire: yea. i like bendy plastic that doesn't break:)
22:04:13 <OrngeTide> i want my computer to bounce when i drop it! :)
22:04:17 <Herkamire> how are you breaking your computer case?
22:04:27 <OrngeTide> oh i break EVERYTHING
22:04:31 <OrngeTide> software and hardware
22:04:38 <Herkamire> OrngeTide: congrats
22:04:45 <OrngeTide> yea. i'm uberklutz
22:04:54 <Herkamire> hide it under your desk
22:05:03 <Herkamire> or do you kick it there?
22:05:22 <OrngeTide> yea. i kick there.
22:05:30 <OrngeTide> and i'm always pulling stuff out.
22:05:32 <Herkamire> you should just glue 4 inch insulation foam to all sides
22:05:47 <Herkamire> (with holes for drives, ports and ventilation of course
22:06:05 <Herkamire> or maybe just on the side you kick :)
22:06:09 <OrngeTide> i fried my last mobo cuz i tried to plug ethernet into it without pulling it out and i ended up punching out the metal plate for the ethernet (i thought the mobo had onboard, it did not)
22:06:19 <warp0x00> i kinda wanna build the smallest possible case with 4 internal hdd slots
22:06:31 <OrngeTide> the little punchout tag landed on the mobo and it never booted again. (cpu was still good though)
22:06:40 <OrngeTide> warp0x00: oh. geez:)
22:06:45 <OrngeTide> that's a lot of hdd
22:06:49 <warp0x00> i mean screw optical storage
22:07:04 <OrngeTide> four SATA drives would be pretty sweet.
22:07:13 <warp0x00> sata is lame
22:07:14 <OrngeTide> four IDE would kinda bite
22:07:27 <warp0x00> sata == expensive
22:07:30 <OrngeTide> AHAHHA
22:07:34 <OrngeTide> sata is dirt cheap.
22:07:37 <OrngeTide> cheap as hell
22:07:45 <warp0x00> well these via thingers dont have sata anyway
22:07:54 <OrngeTide> yea. that's a problem
22:08:08 <OrngeTide> i got my lastest SATA drive for $80
22:08:10 <warp0x00> and i think the PCI slot for wireless
22:08:42 <OrngeTide> my last company, we used SATA for our NAS(network attached storage) rather than SCSI. 
22:08:50 <warp0x00> el oh el
22:09:10 <warp0x00> well these things dont have sata so whats the point
22:09:22 <kc5tja> OrngeTide: Where are you getting your drives from?  Here, they're fairly expensive compared to parallel ATA.
22:09:24 <OrngeTide> just made a fiberchannel-based RAID chassis and slide 13 SATA drives in it. and then slide 3 to 96 of these 1.5Tb raids into your storage network and viola. :)
22:09:36 <I440r> sata is NOTHING - its just a new way to con people into thinking they are buying someyhing new
22:09:37 <OrngeTide> kc5tja: SATA runs about $10 more than IDE
22:09:57 <kc5tja> OrngeTide: I was quoted $30 more expensive than IDE.
22:10:02 <I440r> no way is serial FASTER than paralell
22:10:04 <kc5tja> Still not *too* bad, but still.
22:10:06 <OrngeTide> I440r: SATA2 and Seagate's propritary extensions to SATA1 offer real command-queues
22:10:24 <OrngeTide> which is how my company used SATA instead of SCSI and ended up with higher performance for an enterprise storage system
22:10:29 <OrngeTide> kc5tja: wow.
22:10:33 <I440r> OrngeTide, and ?
22:10:41 <kc5tja> I440r: Serial can support higher data throughputs because of lower wire capacitance, and better exploitation of the cable's transmission line effects.
22:10:42 <OrngeTide> kc5tja: I just went down to Fry's and bought one. i guess stuff is cheaper in san jose
22:10:55 <OrngeTide> I440r: and how is command queues "nothing"
22:11:15 <warp0x00> Maxtor 160 sata 8mb $128
22:11:21 <I440r> i didnt say it was nothing. but why cant thery have that with paralell
22:11:28 <OrngeTide> another advantage to SATA is that you just plug it in and it's SATA/150. I always had a problem getting my ATA/133 drives to actually be recognized as that.
22:11:39 <OrngeTide> warp0x00: good deal
22:11:45 <warp0x00> same thing IDE
22:11:50 <warp0x00> $120
22:11:59 <warp0x00> sata += $8
22:12:05 <OrngeTide> I440r: SATA is actually a different "protocol"
22:12:20 <OrngeTide> you could have run the same protocol over parallal. but then what advantage would it have over SCSI ? :)
22:12:40 <warp0x00> SCSI is cool because SCSI drives rock
22:12:45 <warp0x00> 4ms seek
22:12:47 <OrngeTide> SCSI drives are very high quality.
22:12:50 <kc5tja> OrngeTide: Are they using ATAPI/SCSI commands for all SATA transactions?
22:13:14 <OrngeTide> kc5tja: very much like ATAPI
22:13:24 <kc5tja> ATAPI = SCSI over IDE  :)
22:13:33 <OrngeTide> there is a "fallback mode" where it acts like a dumb IDE drive though.
22:13:38 <kc5tja> (differences are so minor that they're not really worth discussing)
22:13:48 <OrngeTide> which is how those parallal->serial adapters for $20 work
22:14:07 <OrngeTide> kc5tja: well ATAPI is less complete
22:14:14 <kc5tja> Well, what I'm wondering is, do SATA device drivers use only the SCSI command set or are they still treating it like a parallel IDE drive?
22:14:23 <OrngeTide> SATA is less complete than SCSI.
22:14:33 <kc5tja> Yeah, otherwise it'd be more expensive.
22:14:44 <kc5tja> The reason I'm asking is because SCSI-III was supposed to be high-speed serial link.
22:14:45 <warp0x00> Basically, this entails opening the hard drive, cutting a hole in the case for the window, installing a nice bright LED inside, and closing it up while not getting a single particle of dust inside. <-- how
22:15:05 <kc5tja> I was wondering if SATA was a proper subset of the SCSI-III command-set.
22:15:14 <OrngeTide> kc5tja: you get linear sector addressing on SATA like you do in SCSI. but that's not really a major accomplishment.
22:15:22 <OrngeTide> kc5tja: it's not a proper subset.
22:15:27 <OrngeTide> it's similar :)
22:15:33 <kc5tja> Pity.
22:15:38 <kc5tja> They lost a major opportunity.
22:15:43 <OrngeTide> similar enough that many SATA drivers for linux live on the SCSI shim layer
22:16:17 <kc5tja> Well, many ATAPI drivers do the same.
22:16:17 <OrngeTide> kc5tja: yea. i think there are political/legal reasons for not doing it as real SCSI
22:16:22 <OrngeTide> yup
22:16:36 <kc5tja> My CD-ROM drive is accessed as a SCSI device, even though it's ATAPI.  :)
22:16:41 <kc5tja> Well, CD-burner.
22:16:48 <OrngeTide> yea. same with mine.
22:16:58 <warp0x00> yeah i run all my atapi drives in scsi emulation
22:18:09 <OrngeTide> i wish linux supported seagate command queues... :(
22:18:41 <warp0x00> SCUM OF THE EARTH C'MON
22:19:03 <Herkamire> I wish I had a nickle every time I ate a pickle
22:19:24 <OrngeTide> i'd rather have a dime for everytime i ate a lime.
22:19:37 <Herkamire> OrngeTide: eat a lot od limes do you?
22:19:50 <OrngeTide> I wish I had a dollar for everytime I made warp's mom hollar.
22:20:07 <OrngeTide> Herkamire: enough:) .. mexican beer + lime ... MMM
22:20:21 <Herkamire> wouldn't pay for the beer though :)
22:20:29 <Herkamire> I wish I had a snack
22:20:34 <warp0x00> OrngeTide: hahahah you fucked my mom youve got aids
22:20:37 <Herkamire> hmmm.... brb
22:20:53 <OrngeTide> lovely.
22:20:57 <kc5tja> Okay, okay.  Let's not get wild and crazy with the personal insults here.
22:21:23 <OrngeTide> i just didn't want to leave warp out of the conversation. :)
22:21:45 <warp0x00> kc5tja: you're a penis head
22:21:51 <Herkamire> anybody know of linux software that uses a zooming interface besides dasher?
22:21:53 <kc5tja> warp0x00: I also have ops.
22:22:08 <kc5tja> And this goes for both parties.  :)
22:22:13 <OrngeTide> kc5tja: that @ looks like a penis head perhaps? :)
22:22:28 <warp0x00> hahahaha
22:22:41 <kc5tja> Herkamire: Nope.  Not to my knowledge.
22:22:41 <OrngeTide> it's definently a little rattle snake.
22:22:44 <OrngeTide> sssSSSsssss
22:22:48 <kc5tja> Herkamire: BTW, I saw your .png file -- neat neat neat concept.
22:23:02 <OrngeTide> kc5tja you've got a snake on your head!! *wack,wack*
22:23:22 <kc5tja> Aikido -- I gently avoid your strikes, while not disturbing the snake.  
22:23:40 <OrngeTide> heh.
22:24:09 <warp0x00> avoid this
22:24:12 * warp0x00 shoots kc5tja
22:24:29 * OrngeTide quickly sells kc5tja a bulletproof vest.
22:24:36 <warp0x00> in the head
22:24:42 * kc5tja dodges the bullet.
22:24:43 <OrngeTide> and helmet
22:24:53 <OrngeTide> but the helmet is for warp0x00...
22:24:54 <warp0x00> i was trying to make a matrix refernce
22:24:55 * kc5tja is an agent in the Matrix, you know.
22:25:10 <OrngeTide> i didn't like the matrix.
22:25:14 <kc5tja> That's what that '@' means -- cool shades.  :)
22:25:15 <I440r> there is NO spoon!
22:25:16 <OrngeTide> it was kinda cheesy. like hackers.
22:25:26 <warp0x00> hackers wasnt kindof anything
22:25:30 <kc5tja> Matrix was awesome.
22:25:40 <kc5tja> But Matrix II wasn't nearly as good.  It was a good action flic, but that's it.
22:25:47 <OrngeTide> wargames was awesomer.
22:26:00 <kc5tja> OrngeTide: If you enjoy playing chess, maybe.
22:26:20 <OrngeTide> i'm not a big kungfu movie fan. so that's probably why i didn't like either matrices
22:26:30 <warp0x00> itt ill just get a board
22:26:32 <OrngeTide> the scifi was a bit weak for me.
22:26:35 <kc5tja> The point isn't the martial arts.
22:26:38 <warp0x00> and worry about cases later
22:26:44 <kc5tja> The point was to question our reality.
22:26:57 <warp0x00> the point was to make money
22:27:07 <kc5tja> warp0x00: No, that was the point of Matrix II.
22:27:08 <OrngeTide> because we're duracell batteries? that doesn't even make sense. 
22:27:24 <OrngeTide> extracting energry from humans is silly.
22:27:36 <OrngeTide> growing food and feeding it to us takes more energy!
22:27:41 <kc5tja> OrngeTide: Sure it is.  But that doesn't change the underlying point of the movie.
22:27:54 <warp0x00> what underlying point
22:28:05 <kc5tja> That reality doesn't exist.
22:28:14 <warp0x00> thats a stupid point
22:28:18 <kc5tja> The "Real World" is beyond our grasp of knowledge.
22:28:19 <warp0x00> skepticism is lame
22:28:27 <kc5tja> warp0x00: Why so skeptical?
22:28:42 <warp0x00> i mean skeptic philosophy
22:28:43 <OrngeTide> kc5tja: there are lots of books that challenge reality in a much more engaging way.
22:28:51 <warp0x00> OrngeTide: pm
22:28:54 * OrngeTide is an anti-realists.
22:28:58 * kc5tja shrugs
22:29:05 <OrngeTide> warp0x00: i know. i didn't see anything i needed to reply to. :)
22:29:16 <warp0x00> you're all banned
22:29:26 <OrngeTide> okay:)
22:29:42 <kc5tja> You can believe what you choose to believe in.  I'll stick with physics.  I still found Matrix thoroughly kick-ass, and that's that.
22:29:59 <OrngeTide> kc5tja: i'm glad you enjoyed the film
22:30:37 <OrngeTide> man. it's 10:30 already. too much time on irc! ttyl
22:30:54 <kc5tja> You better be glad.  I'm watching you.  Remember the `@'.  :)
22:31:04 <OrngeTide> ph33r
22:31:08 <kc5tja> Hehe
22:31:22 <kc5tja> I think that rings better than the Alamo;  Remember the @.  :)
22:31:56 <OrngeTide> remember the @, mofo.
22:32:08 <warp0x00> im an ircop
22:32:28 <OrngeTide> warp0x00: wow. you have no life. i'm sorry.
22:32:29 <OrngeTide> :)
22:32:52 <warp0x00> OrngeTide: hey what kind of power connecter do these things use?
22:33:00 <OrngeTide> connector?
22:33:07 <OrngeTide> ATX
22:33:07 <warp0x00> yeah
22:33:10 <warp0x00> okay
22:33:28 <OrngeTide> nite!
22:33:34 <kc5tja> night.
22:33:42 <warp0x00> kc5tja: you're all banned.
22:33:56 <kc5tja> Banned, eh?
22:34:20 <warp0x00> yes
22:35:17 <kc5tja> That's nice.
22:35:26 <kc5tja> I should do that more often.
22:35:58 <warp0x00> yeah anyway
22:36:04 <warp0x00> how is your forth thinger?
22:39:19 <kc5tja> I haven't done any work on it today.  I've been away at Mesa college all day, getting stuff done to transfer into it.
22:39:32 <warp0x00> oh i see
22:39:41 <kc5tja> This Thursday, I'll need to actually sign up for classes, now that I got all the legwork done.
22:39:57 <Herkamire> kc5tja: glad you liked the zooming source tree idea. I've gotten mostly quite good feedback on the idea.
22:40:38 <warp0x00> Herkamire: what idea is this?
22:47:27 <Herkamire> warp0x00: idea to display/edit source code with the whole tree of definitions showing.
22:47:30 <kc5tja> Herkamire: If/when I implement my own ColorForth concept system, I'll probably use a database-type source code storage system, which will make the feature a bit easier to implement, I'd suspect.
22:47:48 <kc5tja> But your definitions are already stored in database format, right?
22:47:55 <Herkamire> a word is displayed, with it's comment/description below, then below that is it's definition (scaled down to fit under)
22:48:11 <Herkamire> the documentation and definition of those words are under them smaller.
22:48:11 <warp0x00> sounds cool
22:48:54 <Herkamire> I made a prototype image: http://herkamire.com/jason/downloads/src-zoom.png
22:49:57 <Herkamire> kc5tja: I just have a block of source tokens and a dictionary. I'm planning to switch to a datase of code snippets. I  have'nt decided exactly how it will work, but I plan to have (at most) one word defined in each snippet.
22:50:05 <kc5tja> I think that's something cm would like even.  :)
22:51:04 <kc5tja> Though, I find its handling of recursive definitions a bit . . . awkward.  :)
22:51:17 <kc5tja> What determines when the editor stops rendering the screen?
22:52:01 <Herkamire> I figure it will blit to the screen when it's taken a certain amount of time, then if you're not moving/zooming, it will do a seccond pass that will draw everything down to a certain size
22:54:54 <kc5tja> hmm
22:55:08 <kc5tja> The only thing I dislike about it is that edit takes up *so* much screen-space.  :)
22:55:18 <kc5tja> Now, you scale the text so that the whole definition of a word fits on one line, right?
22:57:10 <Herkamire> yeah. edit is huge. and that's juts a small image :)
22:57:47 <warp0x00> what about using a linear sizing 
22:58:03 <warp0x00> so the pointage goes down not the line width sizing
22:59:06 <kc5tja> Does this editor actually exist, or is it just in design stages at the moment?
23:00:44 --- quit: imaginator ("sleep")
23:01:27 <Herkamire> kc5tja: design concept
23:01:33 <Herkamire> I made that image in sodipodi
23:01:38 <kc5tja> :)
23:02:55 <Herkamire> "edit" spans the whole image. and takes up a whole bunch of the screen, but only if you need space vertically is that an issue, and when you zoom in that far, likely you already know that you're looking at the code for "edit" and if there's a space shortage vertically, "edit" will simply scroll/zoom off the top
23:04:58 <Herkamire> likely the center of the screen will be more towards the bottom of the image and towards the side (depending on where you're zooming to)
23:05:21 <Herkamire> here's a much bigger image if you're interested: http://herkamire.com/jason/downloads/src-zoom-big.png
23:05:32 <Herkamire> (1000x913)
23:05:51 <Herkamire> the thing that's missing is documentation about how to use the editor
23:06:19 <Herkamire> this is fine for learning the internals of the editor, but it needs an overview
23:07:07 <Herkamire> I'm curious what it will look like if I put reasonable amounts of documentation in for some words
23:08:40 <kc5tja> Your comments are basically shadow comments.
23:09:42 <kc5tja> Which is really all I'd be happy with.
23:10:17 <warp0x00> this would only work with forth
23:11:18 <warp0x00> http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?DEPA=&sumit=Go&description=56%2D106%2D106&searchdepa=0 meh i want this case
23:11:20 <warp0x00> but
23:11:22 <Herkamire> there's a flash demo of a zooming interface on humane.sf.net http://humane.sourceforge.net/the/zoom.html
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23:11:28 <warp0x00> i dont want the p4 mb in it
23:11:54 <Herkamire> kc5tja: I'm happy with them as comments, but I still need documentation
23:12:24 <Herkamire> often I think the best way to start understanding a program is to understand how it handles data.
23:12:35 <Herkamire> how it stores it, and what it does with it.
23:12:39 --- quit: Robert_ (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
23:12:47 <kc5tja> Yep.
23:13:05 <kc5tja> I've read plenty of documents that basically say, "Design software by designing your data structures first."
23:13:32 <warp0x00> im a top downer
23:13:34 <kc5tja> When you think about it, that's basically what you do when you employ model/view/controller triads to make a user interface.
23:13:54 <kc5tja> Working with the model forces you to think only about the *data*.  The view and controller are ancillary at best.
23:14:14 <kc5tja> warp0x00: Top-downer is nonsensical.  Top-down code or top-down design?
23:14:26 <kc5tja> warp0x00: I design top-down (generally), but code bottom-up.
23:14:35 <warp0x00> design
23:14:49 <warp0x00> i tend to code like a complete binary tree
23:14:49 * kc5tja nods
23:15:12 <warp0x00> well complete tree
23:15:18 <warp0x00> i dont know what binary has to do with it
23:17:38 <warp0x00> why is this case $121 by itself and $148 with a motherboard in it
23:17:57 <kc5tja> Well, I think I'm going to get to bed.
23:18:00 <kc5tja> WOrk in the morning.  :/
23:18:06 --- quit: Robert (Remote closed the connection)
23:18:13 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK")
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/03.12.16