00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.12.14 00:01:13 windows NT does not support USB??? is that true? 00:02:18 NT4 does. but it was a service patch. 00:02:27 and it sucked. 00:02:39 like the only thing that worked was keyboard+mouse. 00:03:21 my company did a DSL modem that could work over USB and we didn't support NT because it really wasn't reasonable to do. we supported win98se, win2k and winXP though. 00:04:59 weird 00:06:33 --- quit: imaginator ("sleep") 00:11:50 --- join: orange (orange@rm-f.net) joined #forth 00:11:57 --- quit: OrngeTide ("wee") 00:13:15 --- quit: orange (Client Quit) 00:21:09 --- join: orange (orange@rm-f.net) joined #forth 00:31:59 hrm. what are some advantages of a [proper] forth environment? I mean. one that isn't portable or ansi conforming. :) 00:32:04 --- nick: orange -> OrngeTide 00:51:14 simple 00:51:29 it can be more geared to your target platform 00:51:55 it can take advantage of progress made in the field in the last 15 years 00:52:44 speeeed 00:53:24 also I find it much more fun to make it up as I go along :) 00:56:46 heheh. okay:) 00:57:27 old unix programmers are hard to convince. they think speed and progress aren't as important as portability. 00:58:02 that's because unix is far too complex to be written in a year by one person 00:58:38 yea. i have a hard time convincing someone that a 20k forth can have the compiler, interpreter, and fullscreen editor. 00:58:40 old unix guys have seen the platforms that they orginally ran unix on all but dissapear. 00:59:13 mine is about that (in size and capability) 00:59:28 there is something nice about pulling a program you wrote off some 20 year old tapes and having it almost work still. ehhe. :) 01:00:26 I'm not really old enough for that (23) but in my expirience, I'm not terribly interested in running much of my old code 01:01:01 and when I am it's just algorithms and even then I'm more interested in how they work then copying the actual code. 01:01:29 if you want/need to bring your forth to a new architecture in 5/10 years, you can rewrite it. 01:01:39 you will probably want/need a rewrite by then anyway 01:02:26 Herkamire: i sometimes wish i had a way to pull the old games i wrote for my TI 99/4a off tape and read/play them 01:02:36 all old BASIC code of course. 01:02:50 cuz i was like 4-9 when i wrote most of them :P 01:03:15 wow. I didn't start nearly that early. 13 or so 01:03:25 i'm kind of an oddball 01:03:40 i didn't hit C till I was like 14. 01:03:44 I'm sure if you could get them onto your computer you could run them in an emulator 01:03:57 yea. there are a couple good TI 99/4a emulators now. 01:05:01 i found out that more than likely the tapes are encoded using "kansas city standard" so if I recorded them into a WAV file and ran a simple program using an FFT library i could at least get the bit patterns out. 01:05:08 I figure if you document and factor your code well, it will be easy to port to any language. 01:05:11 if they are straight ascii and not some weirdly compressed form then i'm done. 01:05:27 Herkamire: yea. ideally you should only have to port your low-level words. 01:05:59 not nessesarily 01:05:59 i guess transparent portability is what forth programmers take issue with. 01:06:08 not nessesarily? 01:06:52 depends on a million things. also, if you are still into innovation, chances are you're going to want to change the language a bit next go-round. 01:07:17 like if i wrote a solitaire game in forth. i doubt i'd have to edit my "shuffle" routine. but i would probably have to do something about the display routines. 01:07:39 well i'm not sure i want to be innovative with a solitaire. 01:08:00 If you really get into your hardware, and take advantage of it, you can get hardware specific stuff all over. 01:08:26 e.g. I'm learning assembly language for PPC and often the simplest way to do something is with an asm instruction, so I just stick them in wherever. 01:09:04 yea. i done ppc, mips, x86, z80 at past jobs. learning arm and openrisc right now. 01:09:28 personally. i don't believe in effiecent programming. 01:09:29 if I was concerned about portability, I could try not to use asm so much. 01:09:46 I really like speed 01:09:57 i believe in what is ultimately the best value. 01:09:58 I've been playing with fractals, and I want those to go as fast as possible 01:10:04 which means i'm a slave to the market. 01:10:14 value to who? 01:10:36 a slow bloated unusable app is (usually) not valuable. (depending on who your competitors are). 01:11:18 and yet people pay hundreds for them 01:11:21 but a thin fast app that is 3 months late isn't valuable either. .. given those kinds of choices/restrictions you have to make less elegant decisions 01:11:36 yes. value in general. as measurable in a market place. 01:12:23 I'm not interested in the marketplace 01:12:38 honestly i would like people to value a computer that ran on a breath of energy (solar power or kinetic power?), cost only a few dollars, and focused precisely on needs of the user rather than marketing features. 01:12:38 and in general the marketplace is not interested in forth 01:12:45 and for this forth seems like a clear winner. 01:12:55 Herkamire: Worse is Better: http://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html 01:13:07 written about lisp. but it applies to forth as well 01:13:14 I have seen a watch that ran of kinetic power 01:13:23 yea. those are really neat. 01:13:52 i'm a big fan of those kinentic dynamo things, solar power and crank generators. 01:13:59 i think big ugly batteries are disgusting. 01:14:41 i've refused to throw them away or recycle them. i now have a giant bin of toxic waste to remind myself what a stupid thing it is to deal with batteries 01:15:03 i used to use those rechargable akalines. but those make up a majority of my bin now. 01:16:08 XScale 600MHz runs on 0.5Watt. that's not too shabby. 01:16:27 of course the stupid backlight LCDs for them suck 2W 01:19:21 I'm getting cranky and pessimistic, and it's very late 01:19:37 me thinks I ought to go to bed 01:21:04 i'm still trying to decide if postscript is just an evil perversion of forth or if it's just some application specific sort of extension designed around an rpn calculator. 01:21:10 g'nite 01:21:29 * OrngeTide goes to watch the dvd he rented. "spirited away" 01:21:36 i like these happy cartoon movies:) 01:21:37 let me know what you decide :) 01:22:15 I'm leaning towards learning TeX not ps 01:22:25 well if i can figure out a way to define words in forth to make it work just like postscript without being a perversion then i'm fine. and i will use postscript directly as the API for my OS's drawing interface. :) 01:22:36 hrm.. i don't know TeX I only use troff. 01:23:02 i do like NeXTSTEP and NeWS cuz of the postscript interface. X11 supports a postscript draw, but it's poorly supported/implemented. 01:23:22 i'd mucha rather "upload" postscript to a server than make a bunch of dumb calls to draw my widgets. 01:23:49 * OrngeTide doesn't believe in text matrix displays anymore, like CGA/EGA/VGA/MDA text console. 01:33:10 I don't have a textmode display 01:33:29 good riddens then! :) 01:33:34 anyways. i thought you were going to bed? 01:33:50 yeah, I am, any seccond now 01:33:56 I just finished reading the worse-is-better thing 01:34:14 my stratagie is: 01:34:46 1) think a lot, come up with new ways of doing things and/or try combining other peoples ideas 01:35:05 2) write something reasonably quickly that demonstrates at least most of those 01:35:23 3) learn what you should have done 01:36:33 4) start over. copying code from last time only if it still matches your design goals. (go to step 1) 01:37:37 I'm nearing the end of step 3 which I consider to be a bit painful 01:39:18 I've spent about 9 months on this project I think, and it's sad to think that perhaps the best thing to do with that code is to set it aside. 01:40:09 the value of it lies primarily in what I have learned 01:40:31 i think people should document their design. and then implementation and portability is less relivant. really with full design docs you can zip through implementation, tweaking the minor details as you go for whatever langauge/architecture you are working on. 01:40:51 exactly! 01:40:55 but lots of programmers are from the school that you write it immediately and then write some documentation roughly describing what bugs it has. 01:40:56 exactly exactly 01:41:16 I wrote some documentation, but not tons and tons. 01:41:34 I know I would change a lot of it, and probably rewrite it completely. 01:41:48 so I didn't want to waste too much time documenting something that would never exist 01:42:16 but I think the highest value for this project (at this stage anyway, possibly forever) is a good design 01:42:51 what is sorely needed is new distictions, new paradigms and ways of thinking about computing and interacting with the computer. 01:42:58 and they need to be Demonstrated. 01:42:58 i wrote a very high performance real-time debug/tracing library at my last job. i felt the design documentation could be done in about 10pages. .. I ended up doing 90+ .. because people kept playing political games using me (and others) as an excuse why they were late. 01:43:19 so documentation doesn't always solve problems. it sometimes just opens up worse problems (the human factor) 01:43:48 I'm not doing this commercially 01:43:56 I will take as much time as I want and do everything my way 01:44:56 I recently read about Literate programming (where you the documentation is the primary focus, and the code is stuck into the documentation in little bits (instead of the other way around)) 01:45:16 I think that is a very valuable shift 01:45:51 I was looking for something like that. 01:46:01 looking at programs shouldn't be like looking at giberish 01:46:19 hehe 01:46:28 yea. but i don't like knuth's cweb and stuff 01:46:54 all of the literate programming i've seen are done by removing flexiblity away from the programmer. 01:47:09 I've only looked at WEB a little, my main problem with it was that the references to other sections of the document were not clickable links 01:47:25 and I've only looked at a very small project 01:48:17 ah 01:48:21 the problem with large (and even small) software projects and especially operating systems is that we are dealing with such a massive amount of information, that is so amazingly interconnected 01:49:11 yea. that's similar to the argument i use against microkernels and for monolithic kernels. ehhe 01:49:17 and that most systems (none that I know of) provide a terribly easy way to follow the interconnections 01:50:20 in most languages (forth especially) the interconnections are quite explicit. each function you call is described and defined somewhere else 01:50:34 in my environment the editor knows these connections. 01:51:00 it automatically shows you the definition of the function you have the cursor on, and you can hit one key to go to where it is defined. 01:51:11 really? that sounds need. what environment? 01:51:12 my current system does not incorperate documentation though. 01:51:24 my forth for PPC (runs under linux) 01:51:59 my next round is going to be much more like the stuff Raskin describes in The Humane Interface. 01:52:23 * OrngeTide drools. 01:52:39 you drooling over my forth? wanna try it? 01:52:51 i guess it's not so rare to find a ppc user that also follows raskin:) 01:52:57 sure! :) 01:53:06 do you have ppc linux by chance? 01:53:08 now wtf is my laptop. 01:53:20 (portable devices are fun, but i take mine all over the apartment and lose it) 01:53:29 yes. i'm running gentoo/linux on my ibook 01:53:58 I'm still working on making some tough descisions on how to procede 01:54:01 not sure if I should go graphical yet. 01:54:19 damn you're cool. 01:54:28 I'm running gentoo/linux on my dual G4 :) 01:55:13 ok, grab the herkforth tar.bz2 from http://herkamire.com/jason/programming.html 01:55:21 neat. 01:55:36 you do actually have to read the documentation. especially follow INSTALL before you run it 01:55:37 * OrngeTide fires up links. 01:55:58 at the very least read doc/editor and learn some keys 01:55:59 hopefully I440r isn't offended:) 01:56:10 by what? 01:56:12 links? 01:56:28 links is like lynx or w3m. 01:56:40 I know. 01:56:43 I've used all three 01:56:46 but links -g is graphical. i use it instead of mozilla usually cuz it doesn't suddenly decide to use 100% cpu 01:57:04 I even submitted a patch that fixed the graphical mode in links to work with 16 bit on PPC 01:57:07 Herkamire: oh about I440r... well I run isforth too:) 01:57:19 Herkamire: ahhh.. so that's how that started to work again. 01:57:26 i noticed! 01:57:32 (had the colors all #*&^$ up because it though the blue was in a different place or something) 01:57:54 google "Jason Woofenden" shows that 01:58:14 127x49 .. what a weird text mode 01:58:51 yea. i was like "whoa. psychedelic" 01:59:00 XTerm*font: 10x20 01:59:05 ion 01:59:26 17' apple flatpannel =) 01:59:30 17" 01:59:34 ah. i'm on 9x15. but i have 12" display. :) 02:00:14 the editor does need at least 25 lines to fit the blocks. be warned that there are still a bunch of blocks in the source that don't even begin to fit on the screen. 02:00:35 hrm. 2 2 + . printed 7 then later 5... i should RTFM i suppose 02:00:56 shift-S will (as a side effect of restarting after saving a bootstrap) clear and redraw the screen 02:01:27 space and enter do different things 02:02:52 hrm. this has a very unusual key setup. I'll have to play with it some more 02:03:27 it's cuz I use dvorak 02:04:11 well i mean shift-S shift-Q .. etc:) 02:04:15 hit { to go to the previous block, then use N and H to scroll the cursor around. notice how it shows the definition for the word you're on towards the bottom 02:04:19 i wish vi was more dvorak friendly. 02:04:33 it's very easy to remap keys in vim 02:04:49 yea. i hate text editors that require configuration files to be usable though. 02:05:19 I use the chtn keys (dvorak keys where qwerty has ijkl) to move around in vim 02:05:20 my config file in vim is almost as big at the source to a small simple text editor. :) 02:05:30 hehe :) 02:05:44 i've been using elvis lately. kinda tired of vim 02:08:28 well, I'm actually going to go to bed now 02:08:36 nite! 02:08:42 please let me know what you think of my forth. I am very much in the planning stages 02:08:57 --- quit: Herkamire ("goodnight") 02:12:40 "Former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein possibly captured in raid near Tikrit, U.S. officials say. Details soon." -- cnn.com 02:22:23 TEHRAN, Iran (AP) -- Former Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein has been detained in Iraq, Iran's official news agency reported Sunday. 02:22:26 "Saddam Hussein was arrested in his hometown of Tikrit," IRNA quoted top Iraqi leader, Jalal Talabani as saying. It gave no further details. 02:22:34 http://customwire.ap.org/dynamic/stories/I/IRAQ_SADDAM?SITE=FLTAM&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT 02:26:06 yea. who knows if it's even true yet. 02:26:31 my government kept telling me saddam was dead. he must be pretty amazing to not be dead. :P 02:34:56 the great propaganda machine 02:35:19 all successful governments are. 02:35:26 which is really a sad thing. 02:40:54 --- join: aktnot (ident@181.80-202-66.nextgentel.com) joined #forth 03:05:58 --- quit: Soap_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 03:18:46 hrm. gentoo has some add-on packages to do with "translation" and "conversion" with irssi. i ought to grab those. 03:19:40 hrm.. jeff raskin's website for THE mentions that < and > for moving back and forth has been changed to j and k ... i hope he actually ment k and j .. cuz j and k would be fucked up and evil for a person used to vi 03:23:21 oops. all that was in the wrong channel. 03:23:25 * OrngeTide hangs head in shame 04:15:54 --- join: schihei (~schihei@pD9E5CD16.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 07:30:10 http://www.nationalreview.com/document/200312140815.asp 07:39:45 --- quit: schihei (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 07:40:12 --- join: schihei (~schihei@pD9E5C1DF.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 07:45:34 --- join: ss (~matt@CommSecureAustPtyLtd.sb1.optus.net.au) joined #forth 07:58:06 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 08:29:19 lol this channel is starting to become popular :) 08:30:54 there's an ad out somewhere that says "Come join #Forth to talk about anything but Forth or argue with kc5tja" :) 08:31:52 Heh. 08:38:41 if we argue with kc5tja does that imply we must talk about forth? 08:40:11 lol 08:40:22 we can talk about how they captured sadam :) 08:40:28 and what we should do with him! 08:56:38 --- join: jdrake (~GodlessHo@CPE00045afdd0e8-CM014410113717.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 08:57:57 they should freeze him in carbonite 08:58:06 if its good enough for han solo, its good enough for saddam 09:00:29 no they should burn him at the stake 09:01:13 or put him in sone burned out house in the middle of the desert 09:01:27 cuff him to something solid 09:01:44 then tell him sometime in the next few days they are going to bomb his building 09:02:17 they should drop one or 2 CLOSE on the day to let him know he only has a few seconds left 09:04:15 his/this 09:04:34 grr i really should learn to type AND spell :/ 09:09:52 hehe lol 09:10:37 I440r: Let Bush fight him - alone! 09:10:44 lol 09:10:47 winner takes all ? 09:10:49 I440r: And then we'll see how brave he is :P 09:10:51 Hehe, sure 09:10:58 The winner becomes the dictator of the US 09:10:59 ok.i can go for that 09:11:02 _And_ Iraq 09:13:05 lol 09:19:16 Robert: so there can't be 2 dictators? :P 09:19:53 There can be..only one 09:20:20 lol 09:21:02 I think that the military and Bush administration is a little disappointed that he didn't fire a shot. Because that one shot would have results in about 3000 rounds being returned. 09:21:49 the could always have said "he shot first... HONEST!!! 09:21:55 More people will believe that it's Saddam, if he's alive. However, this now represents a massive security burden on the US and Iraq. You *know* we're not going to trust them to guard him. 09:22:27 he should be taken to cuba 09:22:29 And if the we keep him alive in a US prison, they're going to step up the terrorism, demanding his release. 09:23:05 And the Iraqis *have* to make it look like a real trial and execution, so it's not treated as a kangaroo court and marked as revenge. 09:23:34 Otherwise, they'll lose a lot of world credibility with the smaller nations. 09:23:38 jc anything done by iraq or the us is going to be taken as revenge 09:23:42 i dont care 09:23:50 as long as the FRENCH arent prossecuting it 09:23:56 The US won't really care, nor Canada, not any of the 1st or 2nd world nations. 09:24:12 But 3rd world countries will interpet how they like. 09:28:01 Bush did sort of forget to mention the little detail of cost in this whole escapade. 09:29:23 im gonna write a 4th foor the next ioccc 09:31:45 foor? 09:32:14 ioccc ? 09:34:11 International Organization of Child Computer Coders. 09:34:23 It's run by Nike. 09:34:28 And Kathy Lee. 09:35:52 .... 09:35:54 so are you going to write a forth in C that then writes some forth that generates the C code to itself? 09:36:20 Intertnational obfuscated c code cooontost 09:36:39 Man, unless you fix that keyboard, you ain't gonna get nuhtin' to compile. 09:36:46 lol 09:38:10 hhow about a forth -> BF? 09:38:47 lol 09:39:17 i wanna write a brainfsck for isforth 09:39:22 and maybe a whitespace too!!! 09:41:25 --- quit: schihei (Client Quit) 09:43:53 http://robert.zizi.org/bfcomp.html 09:44:04 BF os? 09:44:11 --- join: schihei (~schihei@p5085DD44.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 09:44:24 Well.. kind of. Have a look. 09:47:11 robert io love your webpages lol you got a sense of humor dood 09:47:19 "he will sue your ass off" lol 09:47:33 :P 09:47:51 Isn't that the most useless project you've ever seen? ;) 09:48:16 man you cant even afford solder you gotta use masking tape to hold it all togehter 09:48:18 that sux! 09:49:20 Heh? 09:49:25 lol 09:50:21 I just taped the power cables to the board.. my soldering skills are so poor the thing is falling apart ;) 09:52:19 robert your prolly cooking the solder 09:53:00 Cooking it? 09:53:27 it goes dry on you if you leave the heat there for too long and burn up all the rosin core - its the only way i can describe it. cooking 09:54:04 Ah, yeah.. 09:54:10 I recently noticed that 09:54:13 * Robert feels stupid 09:54:20 For a year I wondered why things would work 09:54:27 Robert: one thing you've gotta realize with soldering ... 09:54:43 Robert: you can't be stupid if you are able to build BF computer :) 09:55:03 Robert: don't put the solder on the soldering iron :) Heat up whatever it is that you want solder on, and then touch the solder to that ... it should flow on there quite well, as long as things are heated 09:55:03 mur: OK, OK.. I'm not just stupid, I'm insane too... 09:55:26 lol 09:55:37 you do need to keep the tip of the iron wetted tho 09:55:46 I440r: yeah 09:55:46 with solder - but NOT so it starts to BLOB there :) 09:55:58 when I first started soldering, I kept touching the solder to the iron 09:56:01 and it would stick to the iron 09:56:01 :0 09:56:01 and you should be fast, dont heat up your target excessivly 09:56:05 and never go anywhere 09:56:13 and just TOUCH the solder to it and pull away... 09:56:19 yeah 09:56:21 doesn't take much 09:56:21 Doesn't that kinda require three hands to do? 09:56:30 then touch the iron back to make sure the solder flows into the hole etc 09:56:32 Holding the board, the thing to solder there and the iron... 09:56:35 thats why you get the grippy metal arm thingy 09:56:37 robert sometimes 4 would be useful :) 09:56:48 Hrm. 09:56:59 That's not such a stupid idea, ss 09:57:01 Robert: set the board down? :) 09:57:04 have your friend hold the pieces :) 09:57:10 lol 09:57:12 lol 09:57:32 The board down? 09:57:43 hav a GF hold the pices.. then accidentluy burn her fingers. the you can kiss them better... then work youw ay slowly up the arm! 09:57:45 ;) 09:57:56 I440r: stop with the impure thoughts! 09:58:02 lol 09:58:20 i know -0 burning her TWICE wouldnt good... 09:58:51 The only thing is that I don't have any girlfriend, and if I had, I wouldn't start burning her with my soldering iron, heh 09:59:08 hehe 10:00:18 Robert: something like http://tinyurl.com/z727 10:00:42 hey 10:00:48 what was the 10:00:57 --- join: tgunr (~davec@vsat-148-63-4-107.c001.g4.mrt.starband.net) joined #forth 10:00:59 selector to embed CSS into tag? 10:01:11 like
10:01:17 where id, is the selector 10:01:42 ss: OK :) 10:01:42 style="foo"? 10:02:06 ah, yes it was 10:08:04 mur: CSS is so great 10:09:24 What happens with the solder is that you it becomes contaminated, and turns plasticy. If that happens, the best thing to do is use solder wick (a chemically treated copper braid, might still be able to get it at Rat Shack) to pull the solder off, and redo the joint. 10:10:51 The contamination is called "dross", and is the result of oxides forming on the surface of the solder. There are different kinds of solder, but the most common hobby form is rosin cored. The rosin encapsulates the impurities, up to a point, allowing the solder to flow. 10:11:34 jc see - i knew he was cooking it heh 10:11:42 dont use lead free solder... its crap 10:12:04 There's pleany of lead in this solder 10:12:06 However, rosin core solder is become less common. Instead, people are using fluxes that are water soluble, so called No Kleen fluxes, or low residue fluxes. They don't work as well as rosin, but the don't require harsh environmentally damaging chemicals to remove the flux residue. 10:12:38 Lead free solder is only used in plumbing. There might be some specialty uses in the electronics industry, but I've never run across them. 10:12:56 jc no. you cant eve get leaded solder in rat shack 10:13:06 its all LEAD free 10:13:08 I do lots of surface mount work, and frequently get involved with the production of our products. 10:13:27 I also don't shop at Radio Shack. 10:13:32 :) 10:13:44 they only charge 40 or 50 times what an item is worth 10:13:47 They've stopped carrying anything useful to me 4 or 5 years ago. 10:14:47 --- quit: tgunr ("signing off, brb") 10:14:59 We don't have RS here anyway.. 10:15:21 Uhhh, I just looked at Radio Shacks catalog, and ALL the solders are 60/40 tin/lead. 10:15:30 But the largest (and almost only) company in Sweden is so damn expensive people have to mail-order from other countries 10:15:48 Lots of people in Europe seem to use Maplin. 10:15:55 jc i never see any lead solder in r/shack every one of them that i see specificaly states lead free 10:16:05 maplin ? 10:16:08 Ever ordered anything from mouser electronics? 10:16:12 I like their pricing.. 10:16:16 ,>,[<+>-]<. 10:16:24 chrisrw: Right. 10:16:33 thats eeasy 10:16:39 Yea, mouser is good. 10:16:45 ti adds 2 numbeers 10:16:51 I like them, and Digikey, and Jameco (for a few items). 10:17:00 chrisrw: Like I tell you on the page :) 10:17:06 jc: OK, neat :) 10:17:10 We spend kilobucks every year at Digikey. 10:17:23 digikey is fscking expensive 10:17:32 Robert: welll i figured it out without reading :) 10:17:36 Yes. But they also just about have everything in stock. 10:17:41 they charge $500 for some items that arent even worth 5 10:18:27 Where are you getting your electronics then, I440r ? 10:18:27 Our rule of thumb for low volume pricing is to take Digikey prices, and divide by 3. On average, that's the pricing we get through the distributors. 10:19:18 im not 10:19:24 thats a hardware problem 10:20:15 Hehe 10:21:10 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@h000094d30ba2.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 10:21:13 http://tinymicros.com/proto/ 10:21:18 This may help you a little, Robert. 10:21:18 how many software engineers does it take to screw in a lightbulb... NONE - thats a hardware problem 10:23:58 http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=xcRCb.87%24Wt5.83153%40news.uswest.net&prev=/groups%3Fhl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26group%3Dcomp.lang.forth 10:23:59 http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=xcRCb.87%24Wt5.83153%40news.uswest.net&prev=/groups%3Fhl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26group%3Dcomp.lang.forth 10:24:05 Hrn, the photo links haven't been updated... 10:24:05 oooh 10:24:06 myyyy 10:24:07 goooood 10:24:37 Yes, my child? 10:26:23 http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=xcRCb.87%24Wt5.83153%40news.uswest.net&prev=/groups%3Fhl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26group%3Dcomp.lang.forth 10:27:24 cya 10:28:35 i have to come up with something so h stays 10:29:57 funny how I've never been terribly tempted to read comp.lang.forth 10:30:56 oh (just saw the date) he posted that last night 10:31:18 yeah 10:31:24 fuck 10:31:36 i gotta do something 10:31:54 I don't have much interest in comp.lang.forth because they seem so hostile or at least uninterested in progress 10:32:07 --- join: Robert_ (~snofs@c-305a71d5.17-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) joined #forth 10:32:38 yah 10:32:39 but 10:32:44 aaaarrrrrgggghhhh 10:33:53 I used to think it was good 10:34:18 Foo. I seem to be missing some pictures I had intended to use in that prototyping discussion. 10:34:23 but I can't be bothered wading through all the crap 10:34:27 i dont want jeff to lave 10:34:35 jeff ? 10:35:06 chrisrw: he might spend more time doing more constructive things ;) 10:35:06 i value his opinion more than that of most othrs 10:35:08 jc im trying to fix that bug - and it has me stumpped 10:45:19 --- quit: Robert (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 10:45:39 --- nick: Robert_ -> Robert 11:08:13 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@207.111.96.99) joined #forth 11:08:13 --- mode: ChanServ set +o TheBlueWizard 11:08:17 hiya all 11:10:12 hi TheBlueWizard :) 11:10:38 hiya Herkamire 11:12:49 :) 11:14:31 hiya chrisrw 11:14:50 how are you? 11:14:55 and whoo am I? 11:15:31 I'm doing fine 11:16:07 :) 11:16:11 I don't know who you are, so I can't say :) 11:18:20 tbw !!! 11:18:31 hiya I440r!!! :) 11:27:03 * chrisrw = arke 11:28:06 oh? charmed to meet ya :) 11:28:31 :) 11:28:36 * Spanky-G has parts of the old testament in his lungs 11:28:38 ?? 11:28:38 I ran out of cigarette paper... 11:29:25 hahaha 11:29:30 smokin' the bible... 11:29:47 :) 11:31:15 --- quit: warp0x00 (Excess Flood) 11:32:06 --- join: warp0x00 (~warpzero@dsl.142.mt.onewest.net) joined #forth 11:41:04 --- join: tgunr (~user@vsat-148-63-4-107.c001.g4.mrt.starband.net) joined #forth 11:42:37 --- quit: chrisrw (Remote closed the connection) 11:54:00 --- quit: schihei (Client Quit) 11:56:38 --- join: schihei (~schihei@p5085D8C1.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 12:06:27 --- quit: schihei (Client Quit) 12:20:46 --- join: aktnot_ (ident@181.80-202-66.nextgentel.com) joined #forth 12:21:35 ok freshmeat is being a BITHC 12:22:20 what did you find so bitchin' about freshmeat? 12:24:24 I440r: its hard to find the software you want with all those MyVeryFirstPHPApplication entries 12:25:20 oh, it's flooded with n00bie apps? ugh 12:26:11 I think both freshmeat and sourceforge need a n00bie filter :) 12:26:45 lol thats not what im trying to do 12:27:05 im trying to add a release and its telling me "we encountered an error, you dont have an valid email address et...." 12:27:19 the invalid email address they speak of has been in use by me for over 6 years 12:27:33 and THEY have mailed it! 12:27:34 lol 12:28:54 ah...hehe 12:29:02 dumbasses :/ 12:29:04 lol 12:35:28 --- quit: aktnot (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 12:44:50 --- quit: ss ("Leaving") 13:18:07 hey 13:18:14 terve tbw 13:18:26 hiya mur! 13:38:06 --- quit: aktnot_ ("leaving") 14:04:46 --- quit: mur (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 14:04:46 --- quit: oooo_ (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 14:04:57 --- join: oooo_ (o@virgo.bombsquad.org) joined #forth 14:04:57 --- join: mur (~mur@uiah.fi) joined #forth 14:10:08 gotta go...bye all 14:10:29 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth 14:27:37 --- quit: zardon ("leaving") 14:29:02 --- join: zardon (~zardon@d216-232-233-5.bchsia.telus.net) joined #forth 14:29:02 --- quit: [Forth] ("abort" Reality Strikes Again"") 14:45:42 --- join: chrisrw (~chris@ca-cmrilo-cuda1-c3b-124.vnnyca.adelphia.net) joined #forth 14:51:20 --- quit: chrisrw (Remote closed the connection) 15:10:14 anyway i released 1.14b - hope there arent any mistakes in the release lol 15:11:51 Yay 15:11:58 * Robert downloads 15:12:44 --- join: semtex (~User@node-d-9180.a2000.nl) joined #forth 15:13:03 bongo! 15:13:05 'morning 15:13:15 full marks :) 15:13:19 :) 15:13:44 Neat, it works. 15:13:47 Hi Speuler 15:13:57 god dag the_rob 15:14:11 * Robert bugar 15:16:51 so hows bashforth ? 15:17:33 still slow 15:17:40 well thats gona be a given :) 15:17:56 been busy on an ELF stand-alone compilera while ago 15:18:09 that code runs much quicker 15:18:20 about 3..4 times speed of gforth 15:18:25 unoptimized 15:18:41 yet 15:19:06 there's some 386 assembler in it too 15:19:11 but using postfix notation 15:19:19 which may not be to your liking 15:19:56 * semtex concedes that writing a complete x86 assembler is a bitch 15:20:38 Anything that has to do with x86 is hard ;) 15:20:54 heh 15:21:03 code an unrolled nop loop is easy 15:22:15 purchasing one at the shop around the corner is easy too 15:22:37 Not really. 15:22:44 They're quite expensive :) 15:23:33 didn't say anything about price. only lack of difficulty 15:23:58 try to get an powerpc there, or an 68000 15:24:04 much more difficult 15:24:22 It's difficult to buy if you haven't got any money. 15:24:23 Hehe. 15:24:43 s/difficult/impossible/ 15:27:03 by the same reasoning, anything which has to do with running code on any cpu is difficult, if you're lacking the electricity to run it 15:27:37 * Robert has to check that 15:27:49 a try my structured-steam cpu 15:27:51 or 15:28:07 runs on a pot with boiling water 15:29:05 as u can use it for making t, it would be a tpu 15:29:32 the cpu variant is for the coffee drinkers 15:29:51 :) 15:30:31 * Robert stares at semtex 15:30:38 hmm, a Coffee Processing Unit? Bet you're making a bundle off of that... 15:31:17 my fav would prob be the hcpu 15:31:24 hot chocolate 15:31:56 and to asian countries, the export model is the rpu 15:32:08 r as in rice 15:32:51 there's riceforth as firmware 15:33:24 heh, I was just going to say hcpu 15:33:39 see, such an intuitive concept :) 15:35:20 might even finally get the general public to become programmers... 15:36:05 well im gona go eat 15:36:09 --- quit: I440r ("food....") 15:36:11 argh 15:37:30 increased competition, declining markets ? 15:38:25 no more need to hire professionals 15:38:42 well, I doubt they'd be _that_ good 15:39:03 but it might cut down on some of the energy wasted on stupid tech support 15:41:06 if that happens, i might be forced to do the next best thing to programming 15:41:19 ... trafficking drugs 15:41:27 Heh. 15:41:58 Crossing the dutch border with something a perforated heel? 15:42:38 no. i'll put a sticker "dehydrated milk" on the box 15:43:04 and pretend it's going to be exported to africa 15:43:20 I see. 15:43:45 then, in the target country, the truck will be swapped 15:45:16 So that you give cocaine to the African children? 15:45:55 oh well, could be real milkpowder, just for sake of cover 15:56:32 --- part: semtex left #forth 16:08:30 --- join: Speuler (~User@node-d-9180.a2000.nl) joined #forth 16:11:42 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 16:31:04 * jc just got rather pissed, and hurled a Bissel Little Green Machine into the lake. 16:31:15 Sometimes, there really are advantages to living on a boat. 16:40:35 haha 16:40:37 mmm.. dinner 16:40:48 you in a lake right now? 16:41:12 my and my fiance's goal is to live on a boat. 16:41:22 san jose housing market is a real drag. 16:41:25 I think it'd be nice 16:41:39 Yea. Me, the wife, and the dogs have been living on a boat for slightly over 8 years. 16:41:47 but the lakes i've been in a houseboat were kinda nasty 16:41:52 neat. what kind of boat? 16:41:58 Lanier ain't great, but it's not bad. 16:42:05 --- join: rO| (rO_@p50806FA0.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 16:42:17 http://tinymicros.com/gallery/boat 16:42:18 if i lived in aboat i'd like to go somewhere with it though. 16:42:20 --- quit: rO| (Client Quit) 16:42:39 --- join: rO| (rO_@p50806FA0.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 16:42:46 like at first i was thinking i could go up/down the west coast. but oceans are dangerous and expensive. 16:42:49 awesome 16:43:02 Lanier is considered a non-navigable lake, since you can't go anywhere. But it's the largest man-made lake there is in the US. 16:43:20 Although I always though Lake Powell was larger. 16:43:28 on the otherhand i bet i could live on something comfortable on the mississippi. there would be a very large chunk of the populated US I could visit without leaving my boat. 16:43:37 * rO| greets 16:43:59 http://tinymicros.com/lanier/satimage.html 16:44:37 jc, cool that's actually a real boat:) 16:44:48 There's some cool new USGS sat images, but the 1 foot-per-pixel images of Atlanta end about 7 miles south of us. I was bummed. 16:45:04 sometimes i see these houseboats, but they aren't actually ment to be moved. they are just a normal house built on a raft or something. 16:45:18 Yea, I've seen those, too. Not sure what the point of them is. 16:45:33 jc, i think because you can avoid property tax and instead pay dock fees. 16:45:41 you find them in new york a lot. 16:45:46 * MysticOne wouldn't mind living on a really big yacht 16:45:52 or some sort of big ship 16:45:54 that'd be awesome 16:46:23 I'd really like one of these $125M boats for sale. You know, 300', twin 1200 HP Catepillar diesels. 22,000 gallon gas tanks, onboard desalination plants. 16:46:27 A heli deck would be nice. 16:46:48 that wouldn't be enough power 16:46:55 at least, IMO :) 16:47:07 Bah. Dropped a zero. 16:47:18 :) 16:47:51 because we had a 65 foot crew boat with twin detroit 1271s ... (which I think are like 1200HP each? Thought I might be mistaken) 16:49:18 umm, how is the #forth offtopic chan called? 16:49:27 hi speuler 16:49:36 Oh yea, and galley slaves. Gotta have galley slaves. 16:50:14 Can you imagine pulling in a port, and picking up 20,000 gallons of diesel. "Put it on my American Express card." 16:50:56 hi r0! 16:51:22 ha. still alive :-) 16:51:48 "oi'm not dead yet!" 16:51:55 if you want a heli pad why not create your own country like sealand? http://www.sealandgov.com/ :P 16:52:04 Speuler: guess what.. 16:52:11 green ? 16:52:50 ehm no that wasn't right. 16:52:53 :-) another box disliking c4th.. 16:53:04 OrngeTide: I thought sealand was cool until I saw it 16:53:11 and realized that it wasn't anything like that I thought it was 16:54:18 rO|: i give up 16:54:46 have been trying some 50$ boxes since.. seems to be higher art to get it going :/ 16:55:06 MysticOne: really? i still think it's cool 16:55:43 Speuler: give up? hmm, i doubt.. :-) 16:56:25 of course i think living in a perpetually afloat, self-sustaining, blimp in international airspace would be even more amusing than trying to claim you are your own country. :) 16:57:23 but really sealand is only interesting because of the eccentricity(is that a word) of it's owners. 16:58:15 yeah 16:58:15 I used to think it was an island with a base on it 16:58:15 then I saw it 16:58:15 and it's just... a platform 16:58:15 nothing else 16:58:17 it's gotta be tiny inside 16:59:55 Herkamire: how's your mac forth OS? 17:00:17 Herkamire: and how's the business? 17:00:30 i like original Mac OS UI better than MacOS X for some reason. 17:00:48 * OrngeTide runs OS 7.2.2 in BasiliskII a lot. 17:00:49 OrngeTide: X? 17:01:03 rO|: you have not heard of X? 17:01:41 OrngeTide: sure, only sometimes i think X is a bit fat.. 17:01:51 it is fat. 17:02:26 when the macintosh first game out many people hated it because using graphics was considered bloated and ineffiecent. 17:02:46 and despite being a 68k is wasn't a fast machine at all 17:03:21 ok, right, pro+contra ;-) 17:03:40 leeds me to the idea of map :-) 17:04:29 * rO| surfing for news now 17:04:49 so bloat, at least partially, is a matter of perspective. 17:05:21 don't don't get me wrong. i hate throwing raw MIPS in the trash because of a poor design and implementation. 17:06:03 nope. know what you mean. same here ;-) 17:07:13 i also hate what happens when everyone demands a GUI but the base system does not provide one. you end up with things like Turbo Vision, which is one of the better examples and you end up with a hundred other solutions that are far worse. mostly because accessing a framebuffer of reasonable dimensions reliably on x86 was/is a pain in the ass. 17:07:23 and then you get god awful garbage like Window 3.0 17:08:16 on the one hand i do not mind learning how to use a new software. that's not a big deal. but learning how to do several different interfaces because they can't all agree on what to use is annoying as wel. 17:08:48 of course in a forth environment i could just build the base guts of the system and lay over the interface as an extension to one i already have. then then i'm done 17:09:21 * rO| Error 500 Premature end of script headers: forum3-sof.cgi "demanding initiative" :-) 17:12:12 OrngeTide: couldn't be something alike menuetOS a tight alternative? at least theoretically. in forth.. 17:13:19 sure. 17:13:37 although i think many of the original MacOS UI elements were quite reasonable. 17:13:58 OrngeTide: ok :-) 17:14:04 really what sucked in MacOS was doing any kind of extension to the system. extension to the GUI or even a driver. 17:14:15 it quickly became an unmanagable mess. 17:14:26 of course forth automatically solves that problem, i believe. :) 17:14:38 hrm.. actually what is menuetOS ? 17:15:00 found the website.. 17:16:33 basically it's a gui OS back from the roots. 1 floppy small. in (f)asm 17:16:51 yea. i see. 17:17:02 i like the implementation. hate the design:) 17:17:41 right.. there to inspire.. ;-) 17:17:58 yea. it definently does that! 17:18:01 thanks:) 17:18:03 --- quit: ChanServ (Shutting Down) 17:18:56 * rO| found once again a reason for tight systems :-) 17:19:48 the ultimative still awaiting :-) in forth.. 17:21:36 It'll never happen. You know why? 17:22:03 Because an effort of that magnitude basically requires more than one person, unless you've got a very good, very determined, unusual person. 17:22:13 OrngeTide: welcome, nothing but sharing good times ;-) 17:22:25 And if you have more than one Forth programmer on a project, nothing will ever get done, because no one can agree on anything. 17:22:33 jc, you only need one good unusual determined person. how many forth gui OSes do we honestly need? 17:22:51 I'm saying it's unlikely to happen. 17:22:59 rO|: I've got a nice demo of my colorforth running under linux (PPC) 17:23:23 my business is growing slowly. 17:24:14 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth 17:24:14 --- mode: orwell.freenode.net set +o ChanServ 17:24:19 jc: clear analysis, i agree. but "not possible" is common, forth is not ;-) 17:24:50 jc, i think there are at least 3 people in the channel now that easily fit the criteria of good/determined/unusual. :) 17:25:11 Yea, but are they going to write it, and are they going to finish it? 17:25:14 now would this be a marketable OS? no. of course not. because worse is better. 17:25:18 If no one can use it, it's not worth anything. 17:25:30 herk: sounds like you're ok. nice to hear. 17:25:35 maybe the author will use it. :) 17:25:40 Herkamire: sounds like you're ok. nice to hear. 17:25:59 my demo presents a working forth, with editor that works as an editor and command line 17:26:11 Herkamire: still need a ppc emu, i guess.. :-( 17:26:17 wow. why are people in here so darn depressed? 17:26:20 the editor always shows the definition for the word under the cursor 17:26:23 Herkamire: does your forth run under OS X? 17:26:42 chandler: no 17:26:47 chandler: my next incarnation might. 17:26:50 could it be ported? 17:26:54 I'm planning what to do next 17:26:58 it would be pretty easy to port 17:27:00 really designs like win32 and unix are what are marketable. this is true even in the embedded market. (where I wonder why companis pay thousands per seat to use QNX, Vxworks, psos or threadX) 17:27:09 Herkamire: is it a native compiler? 17:27:09 Here's a good idea (from c.l.f) Rewrite busybox in Forth. 17:27:14 actually threadX is cool. :) 17:27:35 chandler: native compiler yes. only thing needed to port it is to have it create MACH-O files instead of ELF files 17:27:39 jc, can you use forth syntax instead of fugly unix command-line syntax? 17:27:44 No. 17:27:47 bah 17:27:53 what would the imrpovement be then? 17:28:07 other than as a practice test for learning how to do weird things in forth 17:28:07 Smaller. Size is the often the driving factor. 17:28:08 Herkamire: I'm game, if you're interested. I've worked on the port of Steel Bank Common Lisp (a CL compiler) to OS X; I know how to generate Mach-O files 17:28:50 The speed of something like busybox in an embedded system usually isn't critical. If it's a little slower, most people won't care. But if it's smaller, they'll like that. 17:28:59 jc, busybox is small enough that the kernel size and libc (even dietlibc was too big) were what concerned me when i was working at directv on their linux/mips DSL modem. 17:29:43 chandler: awesome! I'll port it if you give me an asm example of a Mach-O header with one rwx section 17:29:48 I've been playing with uLibc for my embedded system. That, combined with busybox, will seriously reduce the footprint. 17:29:56 I'll need a shell account on a Mac OS X box for testing too 17:30:33 apropos marketable. win32 is simply mightily marketed. remember the paterson-qdos/ms/ibm story.. lol 17:30:44 We have 2MB flash, that's basically used 64K for a BIOS, and ~700K for the kernel. Everything else is on disk. There's 8MB RAM. I'll stick with keeping everything else on the CF card, as RAM is too valuble to use as disk. 17:30:48 we ripped out unix domain sockets, among other things. libc was rewritten from scratch and functions were incrementally added as necessary, this including ANSI C functions. the entire system was linked into a single binary and called /bin/init .. this was all the configuration, webbrowser, etc. statically linked (cuz dynamic linkage HURTS on a mipsr4kc) 17:30:54 chandler: or you could do it. just modify the top of kernel.s and the top of blocks/18 17:31:06 Herkamire: where is the source? 17:31:29 We also can't afford the delay at boot to decompress the kernel or the RAM disk. I initially started out that way, and it was just too slow. 17:31:44 and what do you mean by an "asm exmple of a Mach-O header"? 17:31:55 asm of what? 17:32:14 chandler: oh, the assembler uses GNU as syntax not at&t. 17:32:18 jc, yea. we had 8Mb and we needed to fit two identical copies of the system into it (for redundency). we managed to cram kernel+website+apps into 800kb compressed (which is good cuz mips instructions are fat). then we had gobs of space left over which totally thrilled manufacturing and they dropped us down to a 4mb part 17:32:50 I, as the sole software engineer, don't really have resources for that kind of effort. 17:32:53 chandler: http://herkamire.com/jason/programming.html 17:32:58 our old system was vxworks and we catually could no longer fit two copies of the system on a 4m part. (despite using a "delta" compression algorithm) 17:33:14 vxWorks-- 17:33:15 Herkamire: cool, I'll take a look! 17:33:21 chandler: you want to port it? 17:33:36 We're using a 386EX/25 17:33:40 jc, yea. we could afford the delay. so we had more leway the entire thing was just in CRAMfs 17:33:58 our processor had 16Mb ram on-die. so it was like free RAM. 17:34:04 Herkamire: I'd love to :-) 17:34:05 Sweet. 17:34:20 chandler: awesome :) I've found a lot of people with Mac OS X that want to try it 17:34:55 yea. it was a sweet deal. TI sold us this 160MHz MIPS with 3 DSPs for less than what motorola was selling us the flakey 48Mhz PPCs. (860 and 850) 17:35:03 and TI cut the lead time in HALF 17:35:14 I wanted to use an Arm or *maybe* a MIPs (which I know less about), but the hardware guy on the project (and the guy who owns the actual company) didn't want to make that deep a foray into the unknown. 386 was a known quantity. 17:35:21 .int 0x10000054 # virtual address 17:35:27 oops 17:35:40 in the end the system worked better, had several times the hardware power behind it and cost 1/3 as much to build. ehhee 17:35:49 then the company went out of business. d'oh 17:35:54 Bummer! 17:36:20 * rO| goes for some rest. thx for the chat, have a good time 17:36:24 --- quit: rO| () 17:36:34 ah.. i think my chicken mole is done cooking. mmmm.. ttyl. 17:36:54 One of the other reasons for using x86 was I could do a lot of pre-development before we had our actual hardware. Since the 386EX basically has 16450 UARTs, standard timers, etc, I could write and test a lot of code before I saw the first real hardware. 17:37:49 sure. 17:38:16 we just ordered a $5000 mips dev board that was simular enough to what we were working on. 17:38:23 Nice. 17:38:38 back in a bit. 17:38:53 yea. and basically we threw it on the garbage once we got our system to boot on the real thing. 3 months after we had hardware we shipped. 17:49:02 --- part: Speuler left #forth 18:13:40 --- join: Robert_ (~snofs@c-305a71d5.17-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) joined #forth 18:13:52 --- quit: Robert (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 19:08:31 --- quit: warp0x00 ("what is irc") 19:09:18 --- join: warp0x00 (~warpzero@dsl.142.mt.onewest.net) joined #forth 19:11:17 --- join: chrisrw (~chris@ca-cmrilo-cuda1-c3b-124.vnnyca.adelphia.net) joined #forth 19:12:07 y0 :) 19:12:43 ok, let's say hypathetically that mplayer crashed, and now X has the colors all #&*^$ up for everything but my terminal. 19:13:07 and the mouse pointer looks kinda messed up too 19:13:27 how can I fix it without restarting X? 19:13:42 not at all. 19:13:44 :) 19:13:47 dunno. 19:18:23 sometimes in linux you can flip to a different virtual console and then back to X11's console and it will re-init the framebuffer correctly. 19:18:45 x11 needs a way to have it re-initialize it's hardware layer without resetting it's windowing abstraction layer. 19:19:28 it also could use that as a mechnism to allow resizing and depth changing of the display. but apparently people would rather focus on getting X11 to draw pretty translucent windows that are unreadable *growns* 19:21:40 of course you'd need somewhere to store or reload your pixmap cache. 19:22:01 so it's not a completely simple thing 19:22:44 It already has a method of resizing the display. 19:22:52 sorry i mean the desktop 19:22:58 If you have termlines setup, you can ctrl-alt-+ or something to switch resolutions. 19:23:09 Which might reset your color palettes. 19:23:09 that's only changes the viewport size. 19:23:30 which still holds the same framebuffer dimensions. (the pitch of your display never changes) 19:23:36 Yes it does. 19:23:50 i don't see so well. i flip between 1024x768 and 512x384 video at lot 19:23:55 I used to use it to cycle between 800x600 and 1024x768, and the monitor *definitely* resyncs. 19:24:04 jc, i'm terribly sorry. but it does not change your pitch. 19:24:18 jc, your monitor resyncing has absolutely nothing to do with the framebuffer dimensions. 19:24:38 your monitor reflects your RAMDAC's programmed timings. 19:24:53 in X11 you can scroll around your big framebuffer now. 19:25:13 Never done that. I just switch between resolutions. 19:25:31 i'm doing it now. it scrolls around. because the desktop size is fixed, at least in XFree86. 19:26:38 Well, clearly, I don't how it works. I just know that after I resized, my icons would needs reorganizing if I switch from a higher resolution to a lower resolution. As far as virtual desktop sizes and such, never messed with anything beyond what the resolution I'm operating at gives me. 19:26:49 theoretically the display server could report to whatever client is monitoring events on the root window(s) and get a ConfigureNotify that they there is change in size/position. but that doesn't exist in XFree86 19:27:29 and there is no standard protocol for reporting depth change. although that's not entirely necessary, you can just continue to use the current Visual and just use less effecient on-the-fly conversion. 19:28:16 jc, well changing the resolution normally in XFree86 will cause you to see a smaller portion of your desktop. and as you move your mouse your entire display moves. it's quite noticable. and it's the default (and only) behavior in XFree86 19:28:28 maybe enlightenment or something out there is doing tricks that I have no realized? 19:28:34 s/no/not 19:29:29 It'd be KDE, if it's anything like that. It's the only desktop I've ever run for a few hours. And the display definitely wasn't panning. All the newly opened windows would maximize to the current resolution when maximized, if that means anything. 19:30:07 interesting. i guess my complaints are unfounder. there are WMs that support this, at least for resolution. (perhaps through ConfigureNotify on root like I suggested). 19:30:17 my WM does not, which is my WM's fault, not XFree86's :) 19:30:25 er.. unfounded 19:30:33 wow. i have lost the ability to type. :P 19:31:19 I don't know the internals of Xfree. I've done a fair amount of Windows programming, but never X. For X, I just know as an end user how it seemed to behave. 19:32:08 jc, yea. X is mysterious because it's essentially unusuable without a WM, and the WM defines the behavior of the system almost entirely. it's like 100 different GUIs in one. :) 19:32:49 * jc pleased. I've got v7 running on a virtual pdp-11 :) 19:33:02 Now to figure out how to enable networking, so I can telnet into it. 19:36:22 wow. neat! 19:36:41 how/where does one get the stuff to do that? 19:37:05 simh.trailing-edge.com 19:37:36 Get the simulator, build it. Get the v7 software pack, unpack it. 19:37:39 neat. thanks:) 19:37:44 Then create a file with this content: 19:37:47 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@66-91-231-74.san.rr.com) joined #forth 19:37:47 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja 19:37:47 ! echo "From http://wandel.ca/homepage/unixdemo.html" 19:37:47 ! echo " At @, type 'boot'" 19:37:47 ! echo " At :, type 'rl(0,0)rl2unix" 19:37:47 set cpu 18b 19:37:48 set tto 7b 19:37:54 attach rl unix_v7_rl.dsk 19:37:56 boot rl 19:38:03 To boot it, put the pdp11 executable with the .dsk image, and type ./pdp11 sys 19:38:10 (sys is what I named the file) 19:38:35 --- quit: rpc (".") 19:38:37 XFree needs to restore video modes after programs crash 19:38:50 and bash needs to restore terminal settings after programs crash 19:39:17 What about 'reset' under bash? 19:39:35 reset under bash does not return it to the normal character set 19:39:44 Ah. 19:39:47 It should reset the terminal settings every time it prints a prompt. 19:39:55 kc5tja: exactly 19:39:55 Herkamire: It does for x86 Linux. 19:40:11 bash does? 19:40:40 Herkamire: No. ``reset'' will restore the default character set (though, not the defautl font!) for x86 Linux. 19:41:03 --- join: I440r (~mark4@12-160.lctv-a5.cablelynx.com) joined #forth 19:41:07 oh 19:41:18 by character set I mean that it's all the symbols used to draw boxes and such 19:41:26 Yes, I knew what you meant. 19:41:30 That's why I made the distinction. 19:41:38 weird 19:41:40 It's not clearing the high-bit for typed characters. 19:41:56 I would contact the author(s) of Bash and/or reset and discuss the issue with them. 19:41:57 ibm box charset ? 19:42:36 anyway, I put the sequence (^V^O) that restores normal characters in my prompt 19:43:13 to output ibm box charset you have to do ascii translation onn them. theres a terminfo string containing the translation info 19:43:28 if thats what you guys are talking about 19:43:32 Herkamire: No, it's not. 19:43:35 err. 19:43:36 sorry 19:43:39 I440r: It's not. 19:43:42 ok :) 19:43:42 anyway, I'm going to reboot now so the mouse pointer and colors will work properly again. 19:44:02 ima gona go to wallymart and then do laundry 19:44:20 "SO (0x0E, ^N) activates the G1 character set, and if LF/NL (new line mode) is set also a carriage return;" -- man console_codes 19:44:24 I440r: Type 'cat /bin/ls' at a console prompt. Observe the weirdness thereafter. That's what he's talking about. Herk's Linux's 'reset' command does not reset the console to a usable state after that. 19:44:34 'reset' on linux does not actually put it back into G0 19:44:51 OrngeTide: Then explain to me why it does on my box? 19:44:58 reset on my linux box actually causes the system to immediately reset the system:) 19:45:08 kc5tja: distribution variations. 19:45:32 OrngeTide: There has to be a facility which the distro's use to affect those differences. 19:45:52 OrngeTide: I'm using Slackware, btw, and the behavior is consistent against Gentoo, Slackware, Debian, and RedHat (as those are the systems I've used) 19:46:02 reset is actually a utility that comes with the ncurses distribution (it's a wrapper for tset) 19:46:13 kc5tja: if you say so. 19:46:23 hang on. i'll take a screenshot of it not working 19:46:33 wait ill investigate - its switched into a different charset and prolly changed other attribs too 19:46:36 That's not necessary. 19:46:41 prooly wouldnt be a bed idea to do an sgr0 19:46:56 --- nick: chrisrw -> timmo 19:46:58 But in my experience, all the above distro's have had properly working `reset' implementations. 19:47:22 setterm -reset 19:47:24 yes. i use gentoo and slackware primarily and I know there there have bene times when i haven't been able to get it out with just a reset. 19:47:44 before I found out about ^V^O I hod to alt middle click xterm (or alt right click I forget) and select "full reset" 19:47:45 but the ^N mode (G1) i just tried it with reset and it worked perfectly as you said 19:47:48 OrngeTide: Well, something more sinister is going on then. 19:47:50 and setterm -initialize 19:47:57 so it's possible we're talking about a different problem with similar appearing symptoms 19:47:58 --- nick: timmo -> vx0 19:48:03 * kc5tja nods 19:48:12 --- nick: vx0 -> timmo 19:48:16 might also need to do a setterm -cursor on 19:48:18 All too possible, considering the 16384 different terminal APIs that Unix in general supports. 19:48:33 and setterm -default 19:48:49 --- quit: Herkamire ("rebooting") 19:48:59 --- nick: timmo -> vx0 19:49:10 --- nick: vx0 -> timmo 19:49:11 It's always fun listening to the police frequencies around here. Apparently, the EMTs just showed up some chicks house, where she had tried to suicide, by taking 10 pills each of 6 different depressants. 19:49:34 setterm is part of the the ncurses package - it uses terminfo 19:49:35 yea. i can't get it to go into a weird mode. who knows what I did before. 19:49:49 --- nick: timmo -> chrisrw 19:50:02 I440r: I usually use tset 19:50:47 but i think it's less complete than setterm. (actually isn't setterm part of util-linux?) 19:51:09 that uses termcap - old 19:51:18 jc, i just need to open my window to hear/see that kind of stuff 19:51:33 Bad apartment complex? 19:51:54 just the other day the cops questioned me cuz some woman went nuts and cut two cops up with a broken bottle after slicing up her wrists with it. 19:51:56 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@h000094d30ba2.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 19:52:03 nah. i just live in a city. 19:52:19 san jose is a relatively safe city. but still that sort of thing is pretty normal in a city 19:52:23 * kc5tja couldn't take living in a city. 19:52:28 * kc5tja would be one of those people that go nuts. 19:52:40 When I lived in an apartment complex for 1 year, when we first got married, we slept through a tornado and 2 drug busts with helicopters. 19:52:40 what do you mean "would" 19:52:41 heh 19:52:50 san jose sucks though. it's really nothing more than a giant spawling suburb. it's worse than a city. 19:52:51 Well, a city like San Diego, San Jose, Los Angeles, New York, etc. 19:53:16 try boston for driving u nutz 19:53:21 san francisco is nice. 19:53:23 Roundabouts... 19:53:34 i spent FOUR hours at a red/green/red/gree... light there 19:53:39 it's full of crazy homeless people. but other than that it's okay. 19:53:42 * kc5tja is really clausterphobic when it comes to big cities. 19:53:48 the other way had the green and they kept going thru when they couldnt make it all the way 19:53:48 only occationally does gang violence spill over from oakland 19:53:56 when my side was green the path was blocked 19:54:08 Even here in little University City (a huge misnomer if there ever was one), I'm always watching out for people trying to attack or whatever. 19:54:09 I'm not claustrophobic, but I hate people. 19:54:12 kc5tja: i like to visit big cities. but I like the freedom of living in the country. 19:54:30 I figure 640 acres of heavily wooded land, with my house dead in the middle is about right. 19:55:02 That's about 1 square mile. I figure a 1/2 mile buffer to the nearest neighbor is a good start. 19:55:13 that's what I need. i'm sick and tired of having to pay range fees and only shoot during hours that ranges are actually open. 19:55:17 * kc5tja remembers when he visited NYC once. 19:55:25 Holy Moley, I was positive I was going to die. 19:55:44 I lived in NYC for 8 months 19:55:44 This was back when I lived in Utica, NY, so it's not like I was a complete foreigner to the NY scene either. 19:55:45 scary place :> 19:55:47 I've never been to NYC, and I have *zero* desire to go. 19:55:47 didn't like it much 19:55:53 jc: Don't. 19:55:55 i liked it 19:56:01 jc: Save yourself the pain. 19:56:02 kc5tja: i grew up in the country and one my classmates went nuts and murdered someone with his bare hands in his woods, and then later dismembered their body, and saved the ears. 19:56:04 NYC sucks ass. 19:56:12 ot: holy shit. 19:56:13 so living in the country doesn't make you immune to the craziness of humanity 19:56:28 immune, no. Less likely, yes. 19:56:29 for shittiest people in the world go to boston or nj 19:56:39 yea. the little jesus freak town went into total churchy meltdown after that. 19:56:48 I440r: Some of the nicest people I've ever met were from Boston. 19:56:50 I440r: ahah. no kidding. 19:57:06 kc5tja: but were they still living in boston or did they move away? :) 19:57:09 kc5 unless they are in boston and driving a car 19:57:14 boston is famous for bad driving 19:57:15 OrngeTide: They still lived in Boston. 19:57:17 See, that just proves there's no god, or at least that he's not a kind and loving sort. 19:57:22 boston was really nice in the 1950s up to the 1970s. 19:58:01 just cuz the normal way to drive there is rather crazy, doesn't mean the people aren't mostly good 19:58:02 jc, well everyone has to cope in their own way. so it was like churchy everyday for a good 2 weeks for many of the town's citizens. 19:58:44 when I went to boston there were trees and people smiled 19:58:44 It's just a big cult. 19:58:47 unlike NYC 19:59:02 but that wasn't an issue. the "village" of 4000 people they have 36 churches. 19:59:09 NYC: The sky is blue, but there is no sun, and the streets are eternally dark. 19:59:10 ha 19:59:11 I would like to make it up to Watkins Glen, NY. 19:59:17 plenty of spare room 19:59:24 I grew up in like the televangelist capital of north america 19:59:32 where oral roberts college is and such 19:59:42 I couln't stand the air in NYC. and the lack of nice grass 19:59:49 lotsa insane new age christians 19:59:57 who couldn't think for themselves. 20:00:12 * kc5tja lives in the state where Dr. Gene Scott creates his shortwave evangelist show. 20:00:15 christianity ha ssuch a scary history 20:00:44 Yea, and you point that out to them, and they say "Oh, those are the *bad* Christains. We're not like that." 20:00:52 * kc5tja nods 20:00:53 And no one expected the Spanish Inquistion, either. 20:00:59 Precisely why I turned away from my religion. 20:01:09 My religion is Physics. 20:01:10 once I wandered into the middle of central park on a little peninsula in the middle of a big pond, and I couldn't hear traffic, and the air was nice, and there were no people around, and I was just starting to finally enjoy some peace, when somebody came along and told me to get out of the tree 20:01:11 no one expects the spanish inquisition!! 20:01:31 "Races in Sparta: White Non-Hispanic (94.1%)" -- http://www.city-data.com/city/Sparta-Michigan.html 20:01:39 And my three gods are Einstein, Feynman, and Hawking. 20:01:45 .. yea. there are disadvantages to living out in the country. you have to look at white people all the time 20:01:55 go feynman 20:02:28 I live in a town 20:03:03 kc5tja: heh. i never turned away from religion. never got pointed in that direction in the first place. 20:03:13 gotta take dogs out 20:03:19 not that i'm proud of that. it's just how things worked out. 20:03:21 OrngeTide: You are very lucky. 20:03:48 it's not nearly as ethnically diverse as NYC, but it's got quite a bit of many kinds of minorities. I think it's the lesbian capital of the US 20:04:04 moybe the world 20:04:13 i couldn't tell you even the most basic things about christianity or any other religion. I have no reason to accept the basic premise of a supreme being so anything else is just mythology to me. 20:04:33 Herkamire: really? neat. 20:04:42 and all this time I thought my aunt lived in the lesbian capital of the world... 20:05:58 hey kc5tja 20:06:00 sup? 20:07:46 "Number of college students below state average. Percentage of population with a bachelor's degree or higher below state average." ... which explains why I used to think I was genius when I lived there, but when i moved to san jose I feel really dumb. 20:08:30 warp0x00: Nothing much. Just hacking away on FS/Forth for the time being. 20:08:35 Trying to get it to build a proper string section. 20:08:43 (for an ELF header that is) 20:10:00 what is FS/Forth? 20:10:42 My personal Forth implementation for linux-i386. 20:10:58 what is special about it? 20:11:38 Native code compiling (about 1/2 the speed of optimized GCC output), and able to build stand-alone ELF executables. 20:11:47 SOME DAY ILL FUCKING GET ON BASH AND IF ITS TEH LAST THING I DO 20:11:49 er 20:11:56 wrong channel 20:12:02 Also built on MachineForth, and some ColorForth, concepts. Note it's NOT a ColorForth, though. 20:12:04 lol 20:12:16 --- join: proteusguy (proteusguy@214.sub-166-180-48.myvzw.com) joined #forth 20:12:28 kc5tja: sounds interesting i've never used colorforth 20:13:24 warp0x00: I have. ColorForth has a lot of nice attributes about it that I like. 20:13:38 But I'm sticking with a classical Forth environment for the time being, just to play with. 20:13:53 I'll probably write my own ColorForth in FS/Forth itself. 20:16:17 of course i don't really understand forth that well 20:17:25 warp0x00: a programming language that is writtn from leeeft to rcight 20:17:49 yeah i get the whole postfix notation thing thx 20:18:22 :) 20:18:41 i just don't get how it does stuff w/o variables 20:18:50 The data stack. 20:18:55 yeah i know 20:19:07 but what if you need something thats too far down on the stack? 20:19:16 'pick' 20:19:24 You factor your code until you don't have to. 20:19:25 And it probably means you need to refactor. 20:19:33 heh 20:19:41 what do you mean by factor? 20:19:45 rot is your frind 20:19:54 Only for the top 3 items, chrisrw. 20:19:57 Take a single function and split it into multiple, smaller, easier to think about functions. 20:20:06 I think an example would be in order. 20:20:08 right... like math 20:20:20 A single function should take, ideally, no more than two to three parameters. 20:20:21 : sqr dup * ; That's about as simple a function as you can ask for. 20:20:58 But let's say you wants sqr * sqr. You *could* say : sqrsqr dup * dup * ; 20:21:06 Now, that's simple code, but it can be 'factored' by saying 20:21:09 : sqr dup * ; 20:21:17 : sqrsqr sqr sqr * ; 20:21:26 Just sqr sqr is sufficient. 20:21:27 I left out a multiply in that first example. 20:21:39 No, we're demonstrating complete words. 20:21:41 what does dup do? 20:21:43 : cube dup dup * * ; ---> : square dup * ; : cube dup sqr * ; 20:21:49 warp0x00: Duplicates the top of stack. 20:21:55 oh okay 20:22:11 jc: : sqr ( a -- a^2 ) dup * ; 20:22:20 jc: : sqrsqr ( a -- a^4 ) sqr sqr ; 20:22:42 oh, I see what you're saying. right. 20:22:46 what does -- do? 20:22:56 The parans are comments 20:23:00 warp0x00: Nothing. ( Things between parentheses are comments. ) 20:23:05 ( anything up to the next close paren is a comment and ignore ) 20:23:06 oh okay 20:23:15 : ^ 0 swap for 2dup * nxt nip ; 20:23:30 : sqr 2 ^ ; 20:23:31 :) 20:23:34 ^_^ 20:23:36 The a -- a^4 is a "stack picture". It shows what the word expects on the stack, and what it will return. 20:24:28 Something like * (multiply) has a stack picture of * ( n1 n2 -- n1*n2 ). It expects two arguments, and returns one. 20:25:07 * chrisrw is a fan oof word templates 20:25:27 what do you mean? 20:26:16 I can't grok : ^ 0 swap for 2dup * nxt nip ; 20:26:24 like that last example 20:26:54 Herkamire: ( a b -- a^b ) :) 20:27:01 it can't work 20:27:16 Herkamire: He's using isForth; the dialect is patently not ANSI. Note the use of 'nxt' instead of 'next'. 20:27:18 each time through the loop it adds a stack item 20:27:28 Also, I440r's 'for' word behaves more like a 'do' instruction. 20:27:34 Herkamire: oh ... oops lol 20:27:36 what does swap nxt and nip do? 20:27:59 for/nxt is a counted loop which consumes one stack item for the count right? 20:27:59 swap takes the top two stack items and reverses them 20:28:04 ( a b -- b a ) 20:28:06 warp0x00: ( a b ) swap ( b a ) 20:28:11 warp0x00: ( a b ) nip ( b ) 20:28:27 oh man this language 20:28:34 warp0x00: As far as `nxt' is concerned, that's a non-standard word. You won't find it anywhere else except with isforth. :) 20:28:41 In case that's not obvious: drop drops the top item on the stack. nip drops the item below the top of the stack, leavint the top element intact. 20:28:50 warp0x00: Think of BASIC's FOR...NEXT loop. 20:28:53 : ^ 0 swap for over * nxt nip ; 20:29:23 chrisrw: that will make zero every time 20:29:27 this language is also so not parralizeable 20:29:28 chrisrw: Are you sure you mean 0 as the leading constant? Anything multiplied by zero is zero. 20:29:43 warp0x00: not entirely true. 20:29:51 : ^ 1 swap for over * nxt nip ; 20:29:52 :) 20:29:54 ^_^ 20:29:56 ^__^ 20:30:01 warp0x00: But it does take a moderately sophisticated compiler to perform global optimization rules to make it parallelizable. 20:30:15 ^___^ ^____^ ^_____^ ^______^ ^_______^ ^________^ 20:30:20 what are we paralizing? 20:30:28 Herkamire: your ass 20:30:42 Well, that was rather uncalled for. 20:30:44 I can't feel my ass. it's all tingaly an shit 20:30:56 kc5tja: yes it was 20:30:58 Sounds like a personal problem. 20:31:04 kc5tja: what does your nick mean? 20:31:11 warp0x00: It's my ham radio callsign. 20:31:26 kc5tja: hey do you use that ham radio stuff in the kernel? 20:31:41 warp0x00: I used to before I got a real rig that had a real TNC in it. 20:31:57 kc5tja: what is TNC? 20:32:18 warp0x00: (TNC is ham radio equivalent of a modem, more or less; it's closer to an NIU for those of you who interact routinely with the local telephone company on a regular basis) 20:32:21 Terminal Node Controller. 20:32:31 how fast is it? 20:32:39 Imagine a 1200bps Ethernet controller. 20:32:44 That's basically what a TNC is. 20:32:45 or 56k. 20:33:04 Yeah. 20:33:09 I guess I'm still a little bitter. :) 20:33:13 * jc used to have a 56K setup on the boat. I got tired of talking to myself. 20:33:38 You'd think in the city that invented the 56K Heatherington modem, we'd have a decent network. But noooooo 20:34:02 Ottawa kicks our ass. Texas kicks our ass. California kicks our ass. 20:34:10 Hell, probably most 3rd world nations do. 20:34:14 Heh. 20:34:21 California sucks ass for high-speed digital. 20:34:34 Montana isn't so great guys. 20:34:40 They've got (or had) a fairly extensive 56K backbone. 20:34:46 * kc5tja is currently living in the microwave radio capital of the world, and not a *ONE* is even remotely interested in setting up a uwave digital backbone network. 20:35:08 jc: If they do, it's up north, 'cos it sure ain't down here. 20:35:36 Our backbone is a monsterous 9600bps. Woo frigging hoo. 20:35:42 The whole problem is real packet (as opposed to APRS) never had the killer application. In fact, if it weren't for APRS, the Kenwood TM-D700 probably wouldn't exist, and it's quite likely that Paccomm would be pushing up daisies. 20:36:08 i have no idea what you guys are talking about 20:36:22 warp0x00: Ham radio has had wireless computer networking since 1975. 20:36:23 It's Secret Amateur Radio Dudes talk. 20:36:26 J/k 20:36:33 kc5tja: holy shit 20:36:51 warp0x00: We're only **NOW** getting 9600bps links into the mainstream, and higher speeds are utterly unused except for in Europe. 20:37:15 Up until a few years ago, 1200bps was *the* highest speed one could reasonably expect to go on the ham bands. 20:37:16 oh i see 20:37:16 It's because hams are cheap SOBs who refuse to upgrade, because they already paid $100 30 years ago. 20:37:32 Yep. 20:37:37 And they wonder why the hobby is dying. 20:37:40 i don't know anything about ham 20:37:53 why ham radio? why not beef or bacon or pork radio? 20:37:56 www.arrl.org. Go learn. Take the test. Get your license. 20:37:57 It has nothing to do with the lack of CW-certified operators. It has everything to do with the fact that nobody anywhere is willing to invest money into their hobby. 20:38:12 kc5tja: how much does it cost? 20:38:22 warp0x00: Depends on what you want out of it. 20:38:24 About $7, plus any books you choose to buy. 20:38:29 * kc5tja has a $2500 rig sitting right beside me. 20:38:33 ur shitting me 20:38:36 Nope. 20:38:45 i DO know somethings relating to ham 20:38:54 You can spend as little as $100 for a decent radio, or, like some of us, you can have spent somewhere around $10,000 in the last 10 years. 20:39:01 It covers DC to daylight in almost any mode you can think of, spits out 100W, has built-in TNC for 1200/9600bps, has built-in support for satellite operating, et. al. 20:39:08 Must be a 2000 20:39:18 Yep -- Kenwood TS-2000. 20:39:24 heh! I rule! 20:39:28 Best damn rig I've ever owned and operated. 20:39:35 i know some things like like how to build a beefy DC power supply for free 20:39:38 I have a friend that has two. He loves them. 20:39:38 :) 20:39:40 Before that came out, I was looking into the 1000MP. 20:40:07 Yea, Alan has gone through all that stuff. He buys radios like he's got unlimited cash flow. You should see his satellite setup. 20:40:22 I wish I could afford something like that. 20:40:27 * kc5tja has always wanted to try moonbounce. 20:40:30 I just wish I had a place for a tower. 20:40:38 what are the parts of a ham radio? 20:41:02 He's currently got an FT-847 for sat work. Two TS-2000's. a handful of 2m/440 mobiles. God knows how many HTs. 20:41:37 warp0x00: Again, that depends on what you want out of the hobby. Antenna and radio are obviously the minimum. You might want to invest in a good mic if you're going to do a lot of HF and SSB operating. Or a good key, bug, or iambic paddle for CW. An antenna tuner is almost a given if you're using a random length wire antenna, etc. 20:42:01 TNC if you're doing digital, etc. 20:42:13 define HF, SSB, bug, iambic paddle 20:42:13 The combinations of hardware to set up a station are virtually endless. 20:42:22 Before I sold our house, I was going to put a tower and do some sat work. I had the triplet Icoms. I can't even remember the model numbers, now. 2m, 440, and 6m. The older rigs that every covets for satellite work. 20:42:39 HF -- High Frequency -- radio between 3MHz and 30MHz, though out of convenience, it also covers the 160m amateur radio band (1.8 to 2.0MHz). 20:43:17 --- join: _proteus (proteusguy@166.157.67.53) joined #forth 20:43:18 SSB -- Single side band -- Take an AM radio signal, eliminate the central carrier, and one of its two side bands, and you have SSB. It takes 4x less power for a given communications distance, which means you can (given the same power) talk 4x further. 20:43:36 bug -- a type of morse code keying device. 20:43:43 like a key? 20:43:45 iambic paddle -- a different type of morse code keying device. 20:43:50 More or less. 20:43:52 lol 20:43:53 okay 20:43:54 They're not a normal key. 20:44:23 so sans antenna 20:44:27 what is the radio componnent like 20:44:38 i know it needs a DC power supply 20:44:57 Paddles have one paddle for 'dit' and one for 'dah'. Depending on how you squeeze the paddles, you can get a 'dit', 'dah', 'dit dah', or 'dah dit' out of the keyer module for it. This makes sending Morse code easy and very fast. 20:45:17 Yes, it needs a 12V DC power supply capable of delivering at least 25 to 30A of current. 20:45:24 (for 100W radios that is) 20:45:32 They have lots and lots of buttons and dials on them. 20:45:35 i know how to build those for free HAPPY 20:46:08 i think i have built one 20:46:11 warp0x00: PC power supplies aren't the best for ham radio, if that's what you're referring to. They are very noisy, and they will be picked up by ham radios. 20:46:24 yeah but they're fre 20:46:24 e 20:46:34 Irrelavent if you can't hear who it is you're communicating with. 20:46:44 lol 20:46:52 GAH! This is *so* annoying. I cannot remember what those 3 radios where. 20:46:53 it wouldn't be hard to quite them down i dont think 20:46:56 er, were. 20:47:23 Most ham radio signals are at -120dB to -150dB. Having a clean power supply that is simultaneously very audibly quiet is a huge advantage (virtually a requirement) for ham radio. 20:47:39 oh i see 20:47:40 warp0x00: Maybe sound-wise. 20:47:43 But *POWER* wise too. 20:47:59 The supplied DC power must be very clean -- almost laboratory-grade. 20:47:59 computer power supplies cant have too much noise anyway 20:48:11 warp0x00: They can have a **LOT** of noise compared to a ham radio 20:48:17 otherwise it fucks up processors tho 20:48:33 warp0x00: I don't think you grasp the magnitude of the comparison here. 20:48:39 obviously not 20:48:41 Millivolts of ripple will not affect a computer. 20:48:51 okay 20:48:52 But when you consider an antenna picks up MICROVOLTS across a 50-ohm load ... 20:49:00 Ah, that's right. IC-275H, IC-475H, and an IC-575H 20:49:15 That's a factor of 1000 difference in voltage, or 2000 in received power. 20:49:42 Thus, a computer power supply can be up to 60dB more noisy than a radio's minimum discernable signal. 20:49:50 * MysticOne grumbles about people 20:49:52 yeah but 20:49:59 that doesn't make sense 20:50:02 Thus, if you use one, you run the risk of only being able to receive signals as low as -80dB instead of -150dB. 20:50:24 wait wait wati 20:50:35 why would you need a power supply for recieving? 20:50:48 Because: 20:50:54 1) You need to power the RF amplifiers. 20:51:03 2) You need to power the beat-frequency oscillator that tunes the radio. 20:51:10 3) You need to power the audio amplifiers. 20:51:14 that cannot take as much power as xmiting 20:51:22 I didn't say it did. 20:51:25 But you still need power. 20:51:38 so then what if you used pc psus for xmit only? 20:52:00 kc5 hows the elf file stuff going ? 20:52:02 Kind of hard to do. 20:52:08 why 20:52:12 I440r: I have a bug that I'm trying to track down. 20:52:20 symptoms ? 20:52:27 warp0x00: Because transceivers both transmit and receive, but have only one power supply input. 20:52:41 hmm 20:52:47 I440r: My string section code crashes when I try to create a new string. 20:52:54 why couldn't you split it 20:52:58 I can run it manually at the OK prompt, but inside the colon definition, I get a stack underflow. 20:53:06 When I get back into a house, I'm going to acquire another Yaesu FT-101EE. That was a fun radio. 20:53:09 warp0x00: Because I didn't build the radio. 20:53:20 kc5tja: okay 20:53:24 Why are you so hung up on using a PC power supply? 20:53:39 jc: They are virtually free. 20:53:45 because i have one that puts out some stupid amount of amps already 20:53:48 And I agree, that maybe for transmitting purposes, they'd be fine. 20:53:50 your createing string sections dynamically ? 20:53:52 12V DC 20:53:59 But transmitting is rarely an issue. It's receiving that's the key. :) 20:54:02 i used it for powering a TEC/Peltier 20:54:06 I440r: Yes. 20:54:14 A good switcher, such as the one that Alinco makes, is designed for amateur radio use, and is very quiet. They're also very inexpensive. 20:54:26 A good linear supply is better. 20:54:29 jc: explain 20:54:38 * kc5tja has an Astron power supply. It has only one birdie that I could find. Otherwise, it's dead silent. 20:54:51 Most PC power supplys don't supply 20 amps at 13.8V. 20:55:02 And 200 amps at 3.3V is worthless. 20:55:04 Linears are bloody frigging power hungry though. They waste up to 50% of your power. :( 20:55:22 jc: this does more than 20@12 20:55:27 Yes, but they're very quiet. I prefer the switchers, especially for mobile rigs. 20:55:47 jc: True. They'd be good for receive-only supplies. 20:56:07 jc: its actually a bunch of PSUs combined 20:56:16 the error could be in the string table header - are you updating the size of the string table ? 20:56:21 prolly a dumb q 20:56:23 jc: do you know what a peltier aka TEC is? 20:56:27 What, you twisted all the wire ends together? 20:56:28 Yes. 20:57:36 I've designed them into equipment, no less. 20:57:36 they take some amount of power 20:57:36 In fact, the tablet PC I worked on for IBM was likely one the first systems to use a peltier. It also had this really crazy foam in it. You touched the foam, and it always felt cool. It was an excellent heat sink. 20:57:36 ooooh does your string table section header have an entry giving the offset within the string table to its own string ? 20:57:56 And it was soft and squishy and blue. 20:57:57 jc: cool -- i just used one to fry CPUs 20:58:03 i.e. your string table will need a .sstrtab entry. 20:58:22 the first 32 bit entry of the string table section header will be an offset within the string table to THAT name 20:58:26 I wish I had a finished product of the Road Rider. I have some of the cards for it, but no LCDs and no cases. 20:58:49 jc: i take it it never got to market 20:59:00 in fact each section header (including .text) states the offset within the string table to its own name 20:59:19 http://www.sandisk.com/about/truckin.asp 20:59:22 and the string section type should be 3 - just in case you didnt get that 20:59:24 Yes, it did, and it did quite well. 20:59:27 Trying to find a picture. 21:00:59 i dont think i have the technical expertise required for ham lol 21:01:13 * I440r wonders if kc is ./ignoring him :) 21:02:12 ill stick to wired networking 21:02:40 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 21:03:38 hrm 21:04:38 jc: i didnt realize IBM made a tablet pc 21:05:19 Man, I need to see if I can still turn one of these up somewhere. I wrote the keyboard controller (Intel 8051 family device. 8051SLC?), and the power management processor in it. We called the power management CPU 'Garfield' because it was always asleep. The keyboard controller was called ... shit, I've forgotten. Some cartoon cat that had a bad attitude. 21:05:53 bucky? 21:06:03 It wasn't a CompUSA item. It was a vertical market device. HB Hunt paid $3M for it's development, for it's truck fleet. You know those little Qualcomm satellite domes you see on all the trucks? Well, JB Hunt was the first to have those, and they connected to the tablet. 21:06:21 No, wasn't bucky. Nor Sylvester, nor Topcat, nor Snagglepuss. 21:06:26 lol 21:06:30 thats right 21:06:38 IBM is a speciallized solution company 21:07:32 is kc5tja 21:07:33 dead? 21:08:38 No, I'm hacking on FS/Forth, like I said earlier. 21:08:39 :) 21:08:55 kc5tja: write an OS in python! 21:08:55 I440r is trying to help you you know 21:09:06 MysticOne: how about not 21:09:30 it would be neat 21:09:34 I440r: The problem is in the Forth code that keeps getting a stack underflow, just like I said above. :) 21:09:37 It would be nuts. 21:09:41 sure 21:09:44 but neat! 21:10:04 It wouldn't be too nuts. 21:10:05 i dont like python 21:10:14 But it would be slow. 21:10:17 warp0x00: I didn't tell you to write it, did I? 21:10:23 no 21:10:35 okay then 21:10:40 Writing in Python is like hitting yourself in the face with a hammer. It feels good when you stop. 21:10:49 * kc5tja sighs 21:10:53 Morons. 21:11:03 kc5tja: lol 21:11:06 all langauges suck 21:11:07 so there 21:11:09 :P 21:11:12 yeah they do 21:11:13 If you want to be sadomasochistic, write in Perl, and leave us alone. 21:11:17 yes! 21:11:19 I agree with kc5tja! 21:11:25 perl is fun 21:11:30 and horrible 21:11:33 to write absolutely unreadable code ini 21:11:34 Perl is the biggest fucking ball of bandaids and inconsistencies I've **EVER** found. 21:11:45 yeah it doesnt make much sense 21:11:46 I'd rather write APL coke. 21:11:48 code even 21:11:53 coke lol 21:11:58 At least APL is consistent. 21:12:02 whats kc5tja got in his nose? 21:12:08 APL coke!~ 21:12:13 not my finger 21:12:32 i usually prefer straight C 21:12:41 Oh, so it's OK to hate Perl, but not Python, eh. 21:12:48 Pascal! 21:12:52 * MysticOne hides 21:13:00 but if i have something that i can do simply in perl i do 21:13:13 jc: Yes, because Perl has actual technical issues with it. The fact you can't pass a file handle to a subroutine is a BIG one of my pet peeves. 21:13:28 perl is great for quick and dirty parsing tho 21:13:36 Python is *far* from being problem free. 21:13:42 You, OTOH, are just spouting off, "God, Python sucks ass. Oh, woe is me, for Python sucks ass," and doesn't even begin to list a SINGLE issue that is technically verifiable. 21:13:50 jc: I never said it was perfect, did I? 21:13:56 Please quote me where I said it was. 21:14:09 And since when can't you pass a file handle? What exactly are you trying to pass? You can pass a GLOB, a IO::Handle, whatever. 21:14:13 i just don't like it cuz i don't know it 21:14:17 My biggest problem with Python is that it's slower than slugs. 21:14:30 its not slower than java 21:14:32 so just 21:14:40 warp0x00: Yeah it is. 21:14:44 i mean java is such a mess 21:14:44 On my box at least. 21:14:49 dude have you ever USED java 21:14:53 Java is pretty slow :( 21:14:55 My biggest problem with Python is A) they can't decide what version a program needs to run, B) the white space delination is an abortion, and C) the error reporting sucks ass. 21:14:56 warp0x00: I've coded Java. Does that count? 21:15:02 yeah 21:15:02 Other than that, it might be usable. 21:15:19 i like C's error reporting 21:15:22 The white-space indentation is one of its all-time saving graces. 21:15:25 Segmentation fault 21:15:34 The error reporting is precise and logical. 21:15:38 warp0x00: that's at least better than perl 21:15:42 Horsehit. 21:15:48 perl has good error reporting 21:15:52 what you talking about 21:15:54 perl gives you a million errors, all for the same problem, and most of the time it's not even where it says the problem is 21:15:56 jc: Yes, I know that's what Perl is. 21:16:03 Python has some of the least usable error reporting of any HLL I've ever used. 21:16:14 okay 21:16:18 all languages suck 21:16:21 except C 21:16:24 NOW SHUT UP 21:16:27 all of you 21:16:31 jc: Then you don't know how to read the error reports. 21:16:40 BTW, if you don't like C's error reporting (which really has little to do with the language), then you won't like Forth. Or assembly. 21:16:54 i don't like forth and i like assembly 21:17:00 Yeah, gforth's error reporting is pretty shoddy. :( 21:17:07 Even though it has stack traces available to it. :( 21:17:08 i have a heard time getting my head around stack stuff 21:17:48 gforth is probably the exception, then. I don't think many of the other Forths have stack traces. I know what isforth does :) 21:17:52 i always debug by adding 5 million print statments anyway 21:17:52 Not that FS/Forth will be much better though. :) It'll happily crash without warning. 21:18:05 kc5tja: yay! 21:18:07 warp0x00: Me too. 21:18:12 kc5tja: at least then it feels like someting *really* unpredictable happened 21:18:17 MysticOne: Heheh :) 21:18:20 I always hate things like "Error 15" ... 21:18:25 with no explanation of what it was 21:18:25 oh shi 21:18:33 what is number 15 21:18:33 lol 21:18:38 yeah :) 21:18:41 Favorite Fortran error: "Parameter of type parameter may not be type parameter" 21:18:56 I mean, it's obvious that if you can print out an error message, you have at least some idea of where something went wrong 21:18:57 fortran is scary 21:19:09 they were teaching fortran in my high school ... 21:19:13 that was ... 21:19:14 oh 21:19:14 damn 21:19:22 It's no worse than some dialects of baic. 21:19:23 basic. 21:19:25 like, 6 years ago 21:19:28 * MysticOne feels old now 21:19:31 But it's not what I'd choose to program in. 21:19:31 dude basic is like 21:19:34 readable and stuff 21:19:38 fortran is like acid 21:19:50 acid on your eyeballs! 21:20:03 hey kc5tja can i /query ya? 21:20:20 warp0x00: What do you mean by /query? 21:20:27 uh private irc message 21:21:01 jc: so did you programm in VHDL or Verilog or something for those chips? 21:21:07 warp0x00: /msg shoudl work; /dcc won't though. 21:21:32 well /query is just /msg that opens up a window 21:21:41 I find it amusing that you say that BASIC is readable, when BASIC is clearly a direct descendent of Fortran. :D 21:21:42 No. I've tinkered with VHDL, but done nothing serious with it. If you mean the keyboard controller and power management processor RoadRider, they were just CPUs. 21:21:56 warp0x00: That's fine. I have a tabbed client. 21:22:30 * MysticOne re-edumakates kc5tja 'bout IRC clients 21:22:31 :0 21:22:31 kc5tja: well over the irc protocol there is no difference -- it opens up a window on my side and your side its just the same as /msg 21:23:08 kc5tja: yeah, /query and /msg is all the same ... but on the client side, whereas /msg usually just sends a message and keeps you in the current channel/query/whatever, doing /query will devote a tab or a query to it on the initiating side 21:23:23 Actually, the difference between /msg and /query are on the senders side. As the sender, /msg doesn't open a window for you. On the side receiving it, a window will open regardless. At least with xchat and mirc. 21:23:37 we all just said the same thing 21:23:40 you guys are funny 21:24:22 hehehe 21:24:26 it's all me 21:24:29 I bring the humor to the channel 21:24:37 choose life 21:24:39 choose a job 21:24:40 otherwise everyone here is bitter and cynical 21:24:47 Actually, you're both wrong. /msg sends a message to the remote side, without affecting the current display. /query sends the message privately, but opens up a window/tab as well. 21:24:47 ;) 21:24:48 yeah im pretty bitter and cynical 21:24:51 too much java 21:25:02 kc5tja: thats what they just said 21:25:08 I know. 21:25:13 kc5tja: only on the local side 21:25:16 I was adding to the humor. 21:25:19 hehehe 21:25:21 MysticOne: On my side, yes. 21:28:52 YAY! Fixed the string table code. 21:29:01 yay 21:31:04 It only took me an hour to fix, due in large part to the excessive distractions on this channel. :) 21:31:42 With a little more Python trolling, we can make it two hours. 21:31:56 hehehe 21:32:19 It's just like waving cheese in front of a starving feral rat. 21:32:39 I swore that said fecal rat 21:32:41 Interestingly, and given the choice, said rat will take peanut butter over the cheese. 21:32:43 * MysticOne was afraid 21:32:55 Peanut butter wasn't a choice. 21:33:08 So he can't take the peanut buffer. Because there is no peanut butter. 21:33:13 Nor is there a spoon. 21:33:23 lol 21:33:23 peanut buffer! 21:33:29 there is no spoon 21:33:31 lol 21:33:44 matrix reloaded was crap 21:33:49 true 21:33:55 very disappointing. 21:33:59 The spoon will be added by a $20,000 Silicon Graphics O2 workstation in post-production. 21:34:01 specially the end 21:34:40 I440r: Well, the Matrix was never originally intended to be a trilogy. It kinda happened that way from peer pressure. 21:34:40 wow i just learned that open carry IS legain in indiana if you have a permit 21:34:58 I was thinking you meant open container for the first few milliseconds. 21:35:07 And I'm thinking "You need a permit for an open beer?!?" 21:35:08 same with starwars. that story abouyt the original starwas being the middle of the story is bullshit 21:35:19 lol no 21:35:20 heh 21:35:25 I440r: yeah 21:35:26 that was fucking stupid 21:35:37 what was ? 21:35:40 ewoks are parasites. 21:35:43 Star Wars 21:35:55 that the first ones were really sequels to the new ones 21:36:04 oh yea - ghey even. the original starwars movie was awesome. the new ones are totally fscking ghey 21:36:54 yeah 21:36:56 I didn't even go to see them 21:36:57 too lame 21:37:41 I saw them. And I'll continue to see the third one. 21:37:50 I know they're gay, but that's part of the fun of them. 21:37:55 okay, if you say so 21:37:56 :) 21:38:04 I haven't seen 2 or 3 of the Matrix either 21:38:18 You have to admit, it's hard to go around telling them how bad they sucked when you haven't seen them. 21:38:55 --- part: jc left #forth 21:38:58 Yep. It's like voting for the president; you don't have the right to complain unless you go to vote. :) 21:39:17 --- join: jc (~jcw@68.215.194.38) joined #forth 21:39:19 that was weird. 21:39:47 well freshmeat fixed their fuckup with my "invalid email address" bullshit lol 21:40:17 I used to scan freshmeat all the time. But I got really tired of all the "Hello, world" programs. 21:40:24 lol 21:40:32 Very time consuming to seperate the wheat from the chaff. 21:42:11 I use Freshmeat purely as a search engine for software. 21:43:10 i have 15 minutes to do whatever. what should i do? 21:44:14 fix my bug 21:44:33 sure 21:44:39 whats the bug? 21:44:47 jc can tell ya lol 21:44:53 if you have a blank comment 21:44:55 \ 21:45:04 followed by code 21:45:21 the parser ignores the EOL on the comment line and treates the blank comment and the line of code as a comment line 21:45:26 single comment line 21:45:30 \ 21:45:31 : foo 21:45:37 10 0 do i . loop ; 21:45:41 will be seen as 21:45:47 \ :foo 21:45:48 ... 21:45:54 heh 21:45:58 hahaha 21:45:59 hahahaha 21:46:04 ahahahahhahahahahhhaaahaahaahaahaahaahaahaahaahaaaha 21:46:10 easy :) 21:46:31 where are \ and WORD defined? 21:46:51 bug isnt in either 21:47:01 bug is probably in the parse-eol word 21:47:15 but \ is defined in comment.f 21:47:25 heh 21:47:32 word is defined in compile.1 ? or possibly io.1 21:47:34 i ferget 21:47:40 parse-eol is in memory.1 21:48:11 tell me what happeens whn you put a space aftr \ and then the NL 21:48:31 check it out... or dont you have isforth ? 21:48:41 I440r: nice bug :) 21:49:00 if there is a space it works 21:49:15 i.e. bl word is not delimiting on a eol 21:49:20 where it should be doing so 21:49:31 thats the whole point behind parse-eol 21:49:47 it delimits on the specified char or an eol 21:49:58 if the specified char is a bl it should also delimit on a tab 21:50:40 there is no parse-eol 21:50:49 scan-eol i mean 21:50:49 just scan-eol 21:50:50 sorry hehe 21:50:54 :) 21:51:07 no wonder he can't fix it. He's trying to debug a non-existent routine :) 21:51:11 I440r: are you going to make that valid syntax (\ by it's self) 21:51:12 I440r: Duh, what's the matter? Don't you have a copy of isForth? ;D 21:51:34 no :) 21:51:44 im sending my resume to a company in NC 21:51:48 --- quit: jdrake ("Snak 4.9.7 IRC For Mac - http://www.snak.com (There are 2 version numbers left before 5.0.0!!)") 21:51:49 that takes presidence 21:52:09 I440r: I thought you had a cool job doing forth? 21:52:15 contract 21:52:20 almost over 21:52:25 jecxz???? 21:52:37 jump if ecx is zero 21:52:50 Jump if (e)CX is zero OR the Z flag is set. 21:52:53 what linux software should I use to creat a brochure? 21:53:01 wow 21:53:12 chrisrw: That's CISC for you. :) 21:53:24 kc5 no - doesnt matter if z is set - it wont branch if ecx is non zero 21:53:27 i believe 21:53:35 Herkamire: Not sure. I tried to create one (very difficult, but with much fudging I got it to work) with OpenOffice Writer. 21:54:03 It was the 'e' in the jecxz that I was looking at. 21:54:08 I tried scribus, but got frustrated and deleted it 21:54:39 Herkamire: A good DTP application is something that Linux needs badly, and I was going to write one in FS/Forth (or, at least, try to). 21:55:10 I may have to resort to trying to do it in abiword or oowriter 21:55:24 but I hate it when people make flyers and things in Word 21:55:41 I miss PageMaker 21:55:56 I440r: ... 21:56:01 yes ? 21:56:03 Too bad there's not a WP app as good as gnumeric. Man, gnumeric absolutely rocks. 21:56:05 I440r: im stumped 21:56:08 Even if it is written in C. 21:56:08 maybe in a copule years scribus will be more usable 21:56:10 I like MS Publisher actually. For 90% of the things a business needs to advertise, it's perfect. 21:56:11 me 2 21:56:27 my exact words to jc who discovered the bug 21:56:41 I've never used publisher 21:56:48 The only problem is, it's a MS product, and thus, $$$$. 21:57:10 People actually pay for MS software? 21:57:14 I'm 100% M$ free, and I intend to stay that way. 21:57:15 What planet are they from? 21:57:48 Herkamire: Ditto. 21:57:58 jc: Planet Sheepotron. 21:58:10 heh 21:58:33 oh well 21:58:36 Night! 21:58:53 --- quit: chrisrw (Remote closed the connection) 21:59:21 jc i fergot to add your example code to the release i just did lol 21:59:23 oopts 21:59:38 you sent me that in email right ? 22:00:18 Yea. 22:00:19 No. 22:00:24 It was on my web server. 22:00:42 I just read a tutorial it TeX and it doesn't seem at all practical for brochure type stuff 22:00:52 http://tinymicros.com/mark4 22:02:30 got it. btw was i supposed to look at that 8051 stuff ??? :) 22:04:07 --- quit: _proteus ("Leaving") 22:04:39 If you wanted to. It's the JTAG programming code. 22:04:45 oooh cool 22:05:11 for cygnal ? 22:05:36 yes 22:09:17 --- quit: Herkamire ("goodnight all") 22:14:15 OK, well, I think I'm heading off to bed. 22:14:33 * kc5tja will work on the section header support tomorrow, now that I got the string table working right. 22:18:02 bye kc5tja 22:18:19 good luck 22:18:49 Thanks. :) 22:18:57 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK") 22:56:52 --- nick: Robert_ -> Robert 23:09:04 --- quit: Robert ("I will return.") 23:24:54 --- join: cykotic (demon@24.114.177.200) joined #forth 23:25:06 hello 23:41:39 wow more new ppl :) 23:42:21 or is cykotic a previous #forther with a new nick ??? 23:42:29 would forth be practical for writing a compiler? 23:42:34 I'm new heh ;) 23:42:46 err forth compilers are traditionally written in forth 23:42:56 does that answer your question ?? :) 23:42:58 heh 23:43:11 most linux forths are written in c and are therefor NOT forths :P 23:43:20 some ppl would argue that one with me 23:43:38 are there any yacc/lex tools for forth? 23:43:52 i'll check google 23:44:15 actually forth is rarely used for text processing, i want to fix that, i want to write a comprehensive text processing extension to my forth compiler 23:44:23 its quite high up on the todo list too 23:44:50 it probably wouldnt be very difficult to implement a yacc/lex processor to forth 23:45:00 they are very minimal 23:45:11 not overly complex i dont believe 23:45:36 are you planning on learning forth? - hanging in here is just fine even if not :) 23:45:53 clog doesnt code forth and we let him stay in here :) 23:47:22 ok. cool, I'm interested in learning it so yea ;) 23:47:52 I've got to get to sleep now though.. 3am heh, but i'll talk to you guys tommorow 23:48:14 where you at ? 23:48:20 its only 1:52 here 23:48:24 you must be east coast ? 23:48:26 toronto 23:48:28 ha 23:48:40 i need zzzzz too 23:49:18 lots of ppl in here can help you with your forth when you start it 23:49:31 good to know ;) 23:49:38 first thing you need to do is pick a forth to use... ask me what i think and my answer will be biased 23:49:39 i'll be sure to ask questions ;) 23:49:44 isforth.clss.net <-- my compiler 23:49:45 heh 23:49:50 linux x86 only tho 23:50:01 ahh 23:50:09 i've got gentoo on a partition in this box 23:50:20 me 2 :) 23:50:48 what win32 forth would you recommend? 23:51:03 preferebly something free 23:51:24 colorforth boot disk! 23:51:30 well thers win324th 23:51:35 thats free and for windows:) 23:53:22 there is pForth 23:53:32 its pretty simple 23:53:44 with C sources if you can dig that 23:53:55 im a forth n00b but i might just put gforth or something on cygwin... 23:54:10 or maybe try swiftforth, but maybe swiftforth sucks 23:54:26 or you cant get a demo, i cant remember.. i know i got a pdf from there at least that was worth reading 23:54:57 you can, but it does not produce turn-key binaries 23:55:33 gForth is pretty monsterous, i would try for a smaller Forth 23:57:26 night guys.. 23:57:32 thanks 23:57:32 bye 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/03.12.14